I wish the editor would show a flash of whatever card they're bringing up as alternatives. Here I was with moxfield in another tab trying to figure out what name Tomer said
Imma make a hot take and say Edgar Markov, Theres a lot of good Vampire commanders nowadays and Edgar feels like the most generic option (Said at 13:56 , so Idk if he comes up in the video yet)
Gang: But Selesnya gives humans access to green. Crim: but Mardu has black. Gang: But Selesnya gives humans access to green. Crim: but Mardu has black.
My eyebrows were kinda raised when they said Green had the second most humans ngl, it has the least humans. The thing is humans are so generic none of them are even wrong, Chulane is as valid as any of them.
Theoretically Mardu is the better color combo, but for flavor, Mardu just doesn't match the theme Kyler is going for or what he represents/represented. Selesnya is way on theme for the type of deck Kyler represents. Humans working together to overcome the odds, especially the plane that Kyler is in, Innistrad.
There's so many humans now you can build your human deck around specific themes: +1/+1 counter humans, Aristocrat humans, Legendary humans, token humans, etc...
I like Atraxa because you can proliferate other types of counters that are otherwise not interacted with. Charge counters, shield counters and level counters to name a few
Scion of ur dragon was my first dragon commander (then ur, then ramos right now) but scion of ur dragon is REALLY BORING because it is so consistent. If you dont block, my first transformation is going to be og nicol bolas, and opponent discard their hand is over for that player. Having tutor ability in your commander is really boring. Ur-Dragon is actually MORE fun than scion because there's more variety with less consistency.
Phil's goblin dig makes so much sense. Krenko = consistency. Muxus = chaos. Now between chaos and consistency which do you think fits the goblin mantra more?
@Joshua Cohen I mean, your opinion is basically "the one edhrec says is better is clearly the best" so i dont really give a shit for that trash, but to sweaty little tryhards that desperately need that win sure I bet krenko is somehow "flavorful and fun"
As someone who has built Aesi and Kyler, you are totally right. Aesi makes everyone groan as you draw 6 cards per turn and play big creatures only to get murdered by the table. Kyler is a removal magnet or a mathematical nightmare, take your pick of misery.
I absolutely hate +1/+1 counters because of cards like Kyler. Even if I'm not the one playing them you have to sit there and wait for the dozens of die to be rolled haha
I've played a LOT of dragons. A LOT. Scion is the dragon deck for winning, but it's super boring because you tutor the same 5 dragons every game. Tiamat is similar with the same-y ness. Ur-Dragon and Morophon are both loads of fun because every game is different (if you don't run a bunch of tutors), where you're just getting to play big dumb dragons. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but it's like singleton mid-range dragons. The archtype has gotten too strong lately and I've switched to Ur-dragon+Jegantha because it does require a more interesting build and you have to skip things like the Ancient cycle and Old Gnawbones.
I wonder if Morophon sees play because he is less expensive than cards like the Ur Dragon. If I hadn't bought the dragon commander deck when it came out, I would find The Ur Dragon's current price to be prohibitive and I wouldn't play him for that reason
Tomer, Scion doesn't quite work that way. Once the ability resolves, it loses the ability. This means that you can't turn it into one dragon to kill player A, and then turn it into a second dragon to kill player B. At most you can put multiple instances of the ability on the stack to rapidly turn Scion into different dragons, but all of the abilities have to go onto the stack at the same time. This is why Moltensteel & Skithiryx works (because you can put moltensteel's firebreathing on the stack before Scion becomes Skithiryx), but Old Gnawbone & charger wouldn't (because once Scion becomes charger, it's no longer old gnawbone, and vice versa). Scion can kill one player at a time and is very good at it, but it's not as good as I think you think it is.
Scion's best combo potential is being an entomb + payoff for a Worldgorger combo, since you can entomb the Worldgorger and transform into Bhaal's Invoker for infinite burn damage from the Worldgorger mana (with the potential to do this on a single turn with enough mana up, or split over two turns like a janky splinter twin.)
i think scion is still like crazy strong. Like the Ur dragon is cool okay what about i just cheat the ur dragon in the graveyard and scion becomes it for a turn and i draw a card and put the best permanent into play for free on like turn 5. re animate the ur dragon the next turn.
Before the Ur dragon, I played with scion. The deck is more combo/voltron than go wide with fatties. Scion is also very consistent so each game you feel like you have the same lines of play. Scion also will get you targeted by the pod because with no interaction it can kill as soon as you untap with it.
@1:01:10 in addition to the "main things in green" Crim is mentioning, Champion of Lambholdt is a HOUSE in most +1/+1 counter decks that love going wide. She is in my Hamza build. White has a good amount of protection and Green gives the card draw and overrun type of effects, (while I think the best overrun spell is in white, Akroma's Will).
Morophon can’t be overrated because it’s like the most obvious punchline in Magic. Up there with “dredges got a new toy” and all the Goldfish type memes of “this is good in soul sisters/Is panharmonicon for X”.
Morophon Wizard Tribal continues to be underrated. So many wizards with 3-5 colors in the cmc, really make good use of that cost reduction Atraxa saproling tribal theoretically goes hard with the fungus counter proliferation
Morophon only reduces Azami by 1, completely disregarded XD Nah just kidding, that sounds less cookie cutter than Inalla. Access to White and Green gives you a ton of hate bear Wizards, though they don't really need Morophon to be efficient. Kenrith might be more useful for Haste enabling. Access to Stonybrook Schoolmaster is also very cool. I use Niv-Mizzet, Parun w/o Curiosity effects as my Wizard Commander. Absolutely dumb with Harmonic Prodigy. Never have to worry about my ratio of Wizards-to-spells because they all cantrip. 😄
I love how this group can say "I love telling people they are wrong", but it's totally fine. Everyone here is just having fun, and even if they tell you you're wrong, it isn't a big deal. If anything, everyone here would love to see you play "wrong" fun cards. : )
If you do a human tribal week you should do a video where you do a snake draft humans from all of MtG history to join your team (deck list) Once a human is picked nobody else can put it in their deck.
In regards to krenko have you considered: no. Also, the hidden krenko tech is to love goblins so much that you have mob boss, tin street kingpin, shatter gang brothers, muxus, AND ib halfheart. Yall don’t love goblins the way they deserve.
Kyler is fun and solid but also requires some skill. He has to stick on the field but once he does you can win. Attacking with 20 dorks that are all 20/20s is great. You don't go aristocrats because you care about the humans. Kyler is the one who unifies and inspires the humans in a world where everything preys upon them. You are facing down the vampire lords, hordes of zombies, and werewolves are your gates. You need to stand together and Kyler is there for it.
Everything Phil said about Muxxus is sooooo correct. I run grenzo dungeon warden as my goblin commander and it's so much fun. Krenko should just be in the 99
This episode of the podcast should be renamed to "Commanders we find boring or are powerful". There is nothing overrated about any of the one you mentionned . They are rated appropriately. I agree that they are powerful for the most part, but this is why they are picked frequently because of that feature. I agree that most of them are boring to me and I would choose the less played commanders, but that doesnt mean they are overrated because they are played a lot The only one I agree with the overrated tags are Atraxa and Kaalia . Her effect is so slow in today commander climate and Kaalia effect is on such a fragile body
Yeah Phil more so made a point of why Krenko is unfun and not why it’s overrated. No one even mentioned the difference between 4 and 6 mana in a mono Red goblins deck
@@itsallenwow Yeah I think their point is it's not much of a goblin, but truthfully going wide was always the focus of goblins. When the majority of the best goblins are around 3 mana or less, a 6 mana commander becomes questionable.
I play Kyler because I always wanted all innistrad tribe decks and I can indeed tell you it's actually fun. He is almost always left unchecked and when you untap you can go lethal by casting a couple of cheap humans
some of the innistrad humans have wonderful evasion. black is the most prominent color in my playgroup, so i included the little dude with swampwalk, and then the two dudes with pro zombies. never expect the innistrad draft deck in commanda
I feel like you guys got me on Kess being generic but you guys are sleeping on Kyler, there are a ton of ways to instant speed make tokens before you untap and just have an insane board, and then you don’t need to take up slots with overruns
Tomer bringing up Atraxa as boring and then offering Esika and new Jodah is more interesting is hilarious. Tomer must 100% be a commander hipster who still wants his commander to just reward him for playing cards in his deck. Esika and new Jodah belong on this list. They're literally the two of the most boring, free reward style designs.
Only thing I'm not looking forward to is seeing a boring 5c humans deck from Seth. I want to see interesting builds, not goodstuff 5c with the most printed tribe out there.
Crim: “I just really dislike eminence.” Crim in the very next breath: “I just really like the mana reduction.” Also Crim (probably): “I only eat green M&Ms, the yellow ones are yucky.”
I feel like commander that are basically just " whenever you do x, draw a card" are boring in general, unless it's something like Gitrog monster, where the thing you're doing is otherwise detrimental.
I totally get what Krim’s saying about Kyler. That being said though, Kyler can be very strong and hard to deal with once he gets a few counters on him, which is insanely easy to do quickly in selesnya, and white has so many options to use to keep him safe so you can continuously beat face with him. I think he’s an excellent humans commander and definitely understand the hype, personally. He may be a bit more hyped than he should be, but he’s a ton of fun.
Ya Scion is much better in terms of being more competitive since its basically dragon combo/reanimator. Had to downgrade mine to the Ur-Dragon when it came out. Kaalia is still a beast at a lot of tables even if you're not doing master of cruelties stuff. Mines angel tribal and is fantastic. Angels only have mono white commanders so they still need help.
55:33 "I don't see why you would play Selesynia Humans" has got to be one of the most absurd statements I've ever heard concerning Commander deckbuilding. Because they want to, Crim. It's Commander. People play decks cause they like them. If they wanted to play Mardu humans . . . They would play Mardu humans.
I can understand disliking Krenko as a combo commander, but I think what makes it cool is that it can be a combo deck while ALSO being a crazy aggro tribal deck. Or it can JUST be a crazy aggro tribal deck. My sister has a Krenko deck (that I built and have maintained for her), and while every once in a while she starts with a Goblin Recruiter "win on T3" hand, plenty of the time she doesn't, and builds an army of hundreds of flying indestructible 200/200 goblins. Despite her deck being very strong, it's not super consistent or oppressive, as it doesn't have combo-ing as a *goal*.
All the talk about Selesnya vs Mardu in humans completely misses that you just need to add black to Selesnya for Abzan. There's no true "tribal" commander in Abzan for it, but there's plenty that absolutely do the same things you want to be doing with your humans. Ex. Tymna & Kahmal, Anafenza, etc
I'm looking for alternatives for Krenko, Mob Boss my friends despise him I removed Impact Tremors + Purphoros, God of the Forge, to try to make them have a better game then the next time I just dominated with a ton of goblins with Thousand-Year Elixir + Sword of the Paruns which didn't go down well they aren't using pre-con either and spend as much as me on cards. The problem is it's hard to find a "fair" goblin commander, I've tried Krenko, Tin Street Kingpin having to attack to get goblins was bad seeing as I don't like building voltron as I find it a very boring playstyle so when he dies and comes back later he's useless. Maybe trying a Shattergang Brothers goblin deck would be the way to go or making Pashalik Mons the commander.
The Ur-Dragon is the weakest of the three dragon's (Tiamat, Ur-Dragon, Scion of the Ur-Dragon) mentioned and ironically is the most fun. Scion is a tutor/combo deck which is a lot less fun in practice as you just do the same lines of play every game as tomer was saying with molten steel/skithryx. Tiamat has a fringe cedh combo insta win if you stick a dream halls and loop moriette of the frost with bladewing or use food chain for the same effect. Ur-Dragon is the most stompy/timmy deck and the eminence just helps if you want a 5 average cmc deck it being the top played makes sense as it doesnt have the same lines of play every game like the other two and actually gives you a unique experience every game.
Doesn't Scion of the Ur-Dragon lose the copy ability when it becomes the copy? So what Tomer is explaining with extra combats doesn't work. It changes into the dragon, them that's it. While you can stack the triggers, it becomes whichever was last on the stack and that's it until end of turn.
I have a khler deck and I think you're missing the fact that blink is absolutely busted with kyler or going tokens Increasing devotion makes 5 5/5 for 5. Wyrms crossing patrol a 1/1 with myriad becomes 4 4/4s on attack with the myriad sure the deck can be kinda weak to mass removal or kyler being killed every time you play it but the same is true for any go wide deck or commander focused deck
I'd much rather play against Ur Dragon than Scion. Scion is just an attack away from killing you, as there's at least 2 easy one-shots most people include. At least Ur Dragon generally plays a tribal attack-you-to-death gameplan like a normal deck.
Seeing a good Kaalia list tht makes use of Demons Dragons n Angels tht actually synergize with one another would be interesting 🤔 Not just your usual "good stuff" list
I have a Kaalia deck and it plays a lot more smoothly than the clash crew gave it credit. I have a ton of mana rocks to ramp into my big threats, pleanty of protection for Kaalia, and TONS of board wipes and interaction for when Kaalia does get delt with. Half of the deck is hay makers so when you make it to the late game you're sitting pretty Edit: A lot of people are less scared of Kaalia these days, I can typically politic my way into the table hating the green player over me (then i armageddon but oopsies)
I get some part of Crim's take on morphon for dragons actually. I still don't agree with him, i'd rather have O-Kagachi, Kyodai or Ramos to be more flavorfull and still not play eminence or a scary boogieman combo commander as scion and tiamat And the discount? Like... you've cast your 7 mana commander, do you need discount at that point?
better replacement for krenko: wort. just wort. i don't get why she's so slept on tbh. you get tutors and lili dreadhorde general in a deck with prospector
I built kyler as a halfway point for building 4c humans. It's just kind of a really solid deck right now and I built it out of cards I had sitting in boxes plus the precon.
Kess is about how milling is card draw. She also nearly doubles the value of rituals. Her niche is double dark ritual or cyc rift into another cyc rift. Her goal is usually combo, but she also has 2 boardwipes per boardwipe, 2 draws per draw etc. She double downs on value spells that don't exile. Aka a blue spell slinger that doesn't run every extra turn spell. Only some :)
A few years back I got a hankering to build 5 color devoid eldrazi using morophon. I looked it up, and sure enough Tomer had beaten me to the punch. I picked up that deck, added a few little tweaks of my own, and it's still a part of my ever growing collection.
cant you just make the same argument against scion that you guys all did for kaalia which is that it gets killed before it gets to untap and one shot someone?
Tomer, We all know about Scion. People play Ur Dragon instead because it's just a big dumb dragon that let you play your other goofy (or not goofy) big dragon faster. We all now Scion, the old boogyman that combo of and / or reanimate dragon and kill you really fast. It's not a new discovery, people juste want to have fun.
I agree with Tomer on Scion of the Ur-Dragon. At it's base it has combo lines that it can go with. The most basic is the knockout combo of Skithiryx - Molten Steel for a poison kill. You can also set up a Niv - Mizzet Combo using Keen Sense or Curiosity and turning Scion into one of the card draw combo Nivs. And it also sets up the Worldgorger Dragon combo with Animate Dead, Dance of the Dead, and Necromancy. Setting up a Dragon Reanimator strategy is more explosive than The Ur-Dragon which I also play, lol.
Scion of the Ur-Dragon is super boring to play. Having a repeatable tutor in the command zone is just... Every game is the same. I think Tomer's absolutely right about Scion being more powerful.
In defense of Atraxa as an infect commander, that slow ticking clock is kinda the appeal of her. You could also argue it makes sense flavour wise because then you're not killing your opponents but converting them. Infect decks like Saskia rely on killing someone in one shot (or 2). My very first commander deck I wanted to build an infect style deck, but one that wasn't built around beating people with 1 attack. Was having a hard time finding a proper commander until Atraxa came out. I understand that now there are other commanders that could replace her (and that she see's a ton of play) but she's just cool and kinda nostalgic for me.
I have Morophon at the head of my Sliver deck. Cost reduc is insane, ramping into any color mana to cast him is great. All the other slivers are either weaker, or repetitive. I get to play all those slivers for free, and I don't have the same play pattern every game. Everyone I've played it against has been impressed by it, it's not cEDH, but it's tuned with the best slivers and lots of support. As far as Kaalia, she's my winningest deck... If I want a win for the night, I play Kaalia. You have Avacyn, Liesa, Sephara, Serra's Emissary, Aegis Angel, and Breathkeeper Seraph. Bastion Protector, Guardian of Faith, Mother/Giver of Runes, Greaves/Boots, Robe of Stars, Teferi's Protection, Flawless Maneuver, Deflecting Swat, Kaya, Dihada, and the new Vexilus Praetor... Many others. They also keep everything else safe. Multiple demons tutor, and there's ways to keep your mana base reasonable and cheat these out without Kaalia.
I remember building wrath tribal with atraxa, just pure control with so many boardwhipes and having atraxa just as a powerful creature that i never minded expending infinite mana to cast
7 colorless mana for Morophon is the issue… just like golos… it’s just a cheat… BOTH the ur dragon and morophon are boring… because they are super cheaters lol 😅… any other is fun
In defense of Morophon Slivers, since it's colorless to cast you're able to build a non-5-color mana base around whatever tribe you're in. I have brewed a "Naya Slivers" deck around Morophon, where i run a budget Naya mana base and a bunch of Slivers that are in Naya colors, or are R/X G/X W/X. Morophon's discount is really good for that tribe honestly.
Yes, very powerful. A guy in my local group runs this. At some point he will draw all the creatures in his deck and be able to play them for free. It is an interesting way to play slivers. Most people play queen and combo off, overlord and tutor first and hivelord immediately, or first sliver as a budget sliver deck. Those decks all play the same every time and we all know how they play. I run The Prismatic Bridge sliver deck to make the tribe unique.
I have a $50 Krenko deck for exactly the reason Toner outlined. I like to have some decks to hand to new players around and Krenkers is very good at teaching.
I agree with Phil on Krenko, it seems like a color shift from Marrow Gnawer. I like the idea of the Shattergang Brothers as a different way to play Goblins.
When it comes to Kaalia, if there were more Mardu commanders for Angel tribal I might consider something else. When I built mine, I had angels in all of those colors I knew I wanted to run, and even in 2022, there just aren't a lot of options for that. Giada is great, for sure (and she's in my Kaalia deck of course), but mono white's rather restrictive, and if you want both Aurelia and Liesa, you're out of luck unless you run 3-mana Kaalia (which just isn't as flashy). Kaalia was also the Commander that made me interested in the format, though, so even with a better Mardu one, I might still stick with her just for sentimental reasons. If they give us a solid Mardu Avacyn someday, I'll switch in a heartbeat, though. :P
I once won a game with Atraxa specifically because she has vigilance and flying. I had a lock on my opponents: Static Orb + Tanglewire while I also had out a Wilderness Reclamation. 😂 Of note, I have since taken apart that deck, but I am very proud to say that one opponent of mine who ran Atraxa immediately went out to find a Tanglewire as soon as our game was over.
Tomer is 100% right about Scion. I have a Scion deck that started as an Ur Dragon deck and it was WAY stronger, even before the ancient dragons were printed. Now those dragons have made it so it's a kill on sight Commander at my table and I'm actually considering going back to Ur-Dragon to weaken the deck because it just draws too much hate now.
I wish the editor would show a flash of whatever card they're bringing up as alternatives. Here I was with moxfield in another tab trying to figure out what name Tomer said
Same, it took me quite some time to catch "Zevlor".
I agree. I had to search 60% of whatever they are referencing
Yeah I think about it pretty much every episode 😅
Tomer is the editor
You know the editor is tomer ?……
Crim: gets yelled at for having a changeling at the head of his dragon deck
Tomer: has a dragon At the head of his changeling deck
If being boring is a criteria for this list, chulane takes the cake.
He's so bantal.
Hey, I have a lot of fun playing a growth spiral after every spell.
No he's too boring to like cake, he takes the tofu
Imma make a hot take and say Edgar Markov, Theres a lot of good Vampire commanders nowadays and Edgar feels like the most generic option (Said at 13:56 , so Idk if he comes up in the video yet)
Nah he's fun to play, not fun to sit across from.
I loved Phil's somewhat sarcastic response to Crim about getting rainbow mana.
"Sure, yeah, that's the problem in 5 color, getting 5 colors"
Gang: But Selesnya gives humans access to green. Crim: but Mardu has black. Gang: But Selesnya gives humans access to green. Crim: but Mardu has black.
My eyebrows were kinda raised when they said Green had the second most humans ngl, it has the least humans. The thing is humans are so generic none of them are even wrong, Chulane is as valid as any of them.
he's not wrong haha
Theoretically Mardu is the better color combo, but for flavor, Mardu just doesn't match the theme Kyler is going for or what he represents/represented. Selesnya is way on theme for the type of deck Kyler represents. Humans working together to overcome the odds, especially the plane that Kyler is in, Innistrad.
I don't think Crim realized that "The Ur-Dragon" and "Scion of the Ur-Dragon" are different cards
I was under the same impression.
human tribal commander clash would be actual fun to see,. there are so many variations now
and u also forgot the best human in selesnya, toski
There's so many humans now you can build your human deck around specific themes: +1/+1 counter humans, Aristocrat humans, Legendary humans, token humans, etc...
Absolutely, give me a Human Bowl!
I think Wort the Raidmother is the most fun Goblin Commander. Make goblin tokens, feed to big x spells. Make biiiiig boom. Very Gobbo.
Ib Halfheart is the most underrated Goblin commander.
Just his flavor text makes him so much fun.
Yesssss that’s what I’m about to build bc it’s green but doesn’t do green cringe ghings
Based Wort enjoyer
I think a big thing with Kaalia is that those colors were very under represented for a long time.
Fr, Mardu probably has some the coolest commanders now (even if a lot of them are spicy aristocrats)
(Rephrased) "I just want to sit on you. I don't need to know your name."
is gonna be my new thirst opener.
Truest words were never spoken
I like Atraxa because you can proliferate other types of counters that are otherwise not interacted with. Charge counters, shield counters and level counters to name a few
We just need more options in 4 color commanders. So wizards need to make more.
Agreed
Agreed! I'd love for WOTC to make new versions of the Nephilim from Ravnica
@@CasualKing21 Ravnica is always a fun time, they can put them in return to ravnica: the sequel.
I want a not Atraxa witch colors
We have omnath and 2 others in his quad color. Kinda want 5 in each quad color combination
OG partners enter the chat
Scion of ur dragon was my first dragon commander (then ur, then ramos right now) but scion of ur dragon is REALLY BORING because it is so consistent. If you dont block, my first transformation is going to be og nicol bolas, and opponent discard their hand is over for that player. Having tutor ability in your commander is really boring. Ur-Dragon is actually MORE fun than scion because there's more variety with less consistency.
Built my GF an aesi deck as a big sea creature tribal deck when she got promoted at her work in a fisheries department. Flavor win hahah
Based flavor enjoyer
Yeah what else about her is fish flavored
I'm really looking forward to the proposed Human Tribal bowl
It's happening next week!
@@MTGGoldfish Can't wait! ....I hope someone plays Kyler...............
Phil's goblin dig makes so much sense. Krenko = consistency. Muxus = chaos. Now between chaos and consistency which do you think fits the goblin mantra more?
And that's why you gotta go middle road and get Krenko tin street.
Early goblin cards were not chaotic. But had lots if sacrifice synergies.
Krenko is better, more fun, and just as flavorful.
@Joshua Cohen I mean, your opinion is basically "the one edhrec says is better is clearly the best" so i dont really give a shit for that trash, but to sweaty little tryhards that desperately need that win sure I bet krenko is somehow "flavorful and fun"
@@papaUrabrask What? I didn't say anything about edhrec.
Clearly we need a “who is the best 5c Dragon Tribal commander” commander clash episode
As someone who has built Aesi and Kyler, you are totally right. Aesi makes everyone groan as you draw 6 cards per turn and play big creatures only to get murdered by the table. Kyler is a removal magnet or a mathematical nightmare, take your pick of misery.
I absolutely hate +1/+1 counters because of cards like Kyler. Even if I'm not the one playing them you have to sit there and wait for the dozens of die to be rolled haha
I play aesi control :^) draw 6 counterspells per turn
@@Daniel-ut6lc you say that as if counterspells aren't uniquely weak in commander
@@wldnrkls depends on what type of playgroup you're in.
I've played a LOT of dragons. A LOT. Scion is the dragon deck for winning, but it's super boring because you tutor the same 5 dragons every game. Tiamat is similar with the same-y ness.
Ur-Dragon and Morophon are both loads of fun because every game is different (if you don't run a bunch of tutors), where you're just getting to play big dumb dragons. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but it's like singleton mid-range dragons.
The archtype has gotten too strong lately and I've switched to Ur-dragon+Jegantha because it does require a more interesting build and you have to skip things like the Ancient cycle and Old Gnawbones.
I wonder if Morophon sees play because he is less expensive than cards like the Ur Dragon. If I hadn't bought the dragon commander deck when it came out, I would find The Ur Dragon's current price to be prohibitive and I wouldn't play him for that reason
Tomer, Scion doesn't quite work that way. Once the ability resolves, it loses the ability. This means that you can't turn it into one dragon to kill player A, and then turn it into a second dragon to kill player B.
At most you can put multiple instances of the ability on the stack to rapidly turn Scion into different dragons, but all of the abilities have to go onto the stack at the same time. This is why Moltensteel & Skithiryx works (because you can put moltensteel's firebreathing on the stack before Scion becomes Skithiryx), but Old Gnawbone & charger wouldn't (because once Scion becomes charger, it's no longer old gnawbone, and vice versa).
Scion can kill one player at a time and is very good at it, but it's not as good as I think you think it is.
Scion's best combo potential is being an entomb + payoff for a Worldgorger combo, since you can entomb the Worldgorger and transform into Bhaal's Invoker for infinite burn damage from the Worldgorger mana (with the potential to do this on a single turn with enough mana up, or split over two turns like a janky splinter twin.)
i think scion is still like crazy strong. Like the Ur dragon is cool okay what about i just cheat the ur dragon in the graveyard and scion becomes it for a turn and i draw a card and put the best permanent into play for free on like turn 5. re animate the ur dragon the next turn.
Before the Ur dragon, I played with scion. The deck is more combo/voltron than go wide with fatties. Scion is also very consistent so each game you feel like you have the same lines of play. Scion also will get you targeted by the pod because with no interaction it can kill as soon as you untap with it.
I was just looking to say this. Scion is a fun card. But the molten steel skittles combo is just very predictable
These guys really need to play either with or against a Kyler deck.
Seriously... my group banned my Kyler deck at our table.
I won turn 5 with him once because I got to attack with my 14/14 kyler. The deck was modified but I only drew precon cards.
@1:01:10 in addition to the "main things in green" Crim is mentioning, Champion of Lambholdt is a HOUSE in most +1/+1 counter decks that love going wide. She is in my Hamza build. White has a good amount of protection and Green gives the card draw and overrun type of effects, (while I think the best overrun spell is in white, Akroma's Will).
I was screaming Lambholdt at that part
Morophon can’t be overrated because it’s like the most obvious punchline in Magic. Up there with “dredges got a new toy” and all the Goldfish type memes of “this is good in soul sisters/Is panharmonicon for X”.
"Dies to Doomblade"
Toy got a new Dredges.
anybody got a stifle?
Morophon Wizard Tribal continues to be underrated. So many wizards with 3-5 colors in the cmc, really make good use of that cost reduction
Atraxa saproling tribal theoretically goes hard with the fungus counter proliferation
Morophon only reduces Azami by 1, completely disregarded XD
Nah just kidding, that sounds less cookie cutter than Inalla. Access to White and Green gives you a ton of hate bear Wizards, though they don't really need Morophon to be efficient. Kenrith might be more useful for Haste enabling. Access to Stonybrook Schoolmaster is also very cool.
I use Niv-Mizzet, Parun w/o Curiosity effects as my Wizard Commander. Absolutely dumb with Harmonic Prodigy. Never have to worry about my ratio of Wizards-to-spells because they all cantrip. 😄
I'm glad Tomer pointed out how weird Omnath looks on his promo. I'm not the only one.
I love how this group can say "I love telling people they are wrong", but it's totally fine. Everyone here is just having fun, and even if they tell you you're wrong, it isn't a big deal. If anything, everyone here would love to see you play "wrong" fun cards. : )
Agreed, I refused to watch one of command zone's click- baity, you're wrong, videos but have no problem watching these guys tell me that lol.
@@jamesmoore1476 : )
If you do a human tribal week you should do a video where you do a snake draft humans from all of MtG history to join your team (deck list)
Once a human is picked nobody else can put it in their deck.
That's a super cool idea
Loved the idea xD
In regards to krenko have you considered: no.
Also, the hidden krenko tech is to love goblins so much that you have mob boss, tin street kingpin, shatter gang brothers, muxus, AND ib halfheart. Yall don’t love goblins the way they deserve.
Kyler is fun and solid but also requires some skill. He has to stick on the field but once he does you can win. Attacking with 20 dorks that are all 20/20s is great. You don't go aristocrats because you care about the humans. Kyler is the one who unifies and inspires the humans in a world where everything preys upon them. You are facing down the vampire lords, hordes of zombies, and werewolves are your gates. You need to stand together and Kyler is there for it.
if you’re not playing human tribal to embody the indomitable human spirit, then leave
I wish we had more proliferate commander options
Everything Phil said about Muxxus is sooooo correct. I run grenzo dungeon warden as my goblin commander and it's so much fun. Krenko should just be in the 99
Based Grenzo enjoyer
Wrong. Krenko is the bread and butter to any goblin deck.
This episode of the podcast should be renamed to "Commanders we find boring or are powerful". There is nothing overrated about any of the one you mentionned . They are rated appropriately.
I agree that they are powerful for the most part, but this is why they are picked frequently because of that feature. I agree that most of them are boring to me and I would choose the less played commanders, but that doesnt mean they are overrated because they are played a lot
The only one I agree with the overrated tags are Atraxa and Kaalia . Her effect is so slow in today commander climate and Kaalia effect is on such a fragile body
Where is my Card Draw Tier List part 2??!!! 🤣
Crim out here with a wild take on humans. Selesnya is absolutely the best human colors.
I play Atraxa for a charge counter deck
I’m excited for these matchups with the humans and dragon decks
This one is sure to rustle some feathers 🤭
And possibly some jimmies
Krenko isn't overrated, it's power.
Yeah Phil more so made a point of why Krenko is unfun and not why it’s overrated.
No one even mentioned the difference between 4 and 6 mana in a mono Red goblins deck
@@itsallenwow Yeah I think their point is it's not much of a goblin, but truthfully going wide was always the focus of goblins. When the majority of the best goblins are around 3 mana or less, a 6 mana commander becomes questionable.
"Atraxa's body is really good." - Seth. ;D
I play Kyler because I always wanted all innistrad tribe decks and I can indeed tell you it's actually fun. He is almost always left unchecked and when you untap you can go lethal by casting a couple of cheap humans
some of the innistrad humans have wonderful evasion. black is the most prominent color in my playgroup, so i included the little dude with swampwalk, and then the two dudes with pro zombies. never expect the innistrad draft deck in commanda
I feel like you guys got me on Kess being generic but you guys are sleeping on Kyler, there are a ton of ways to instant speed make tokens before you untap and just have an insane board, and then you don’t need to take up slots with overruns
Tomer bringing up Atraxa as boring and then offering Esika and new Jodah is more interesting is hilarious. Tomer must 100% be a commander hipster who still wants his commander to just reward him for playing cards in his deck. Esika and new Jodah belong on this list. They're literally the two of the most boring, free reward style designs.
"You've got tons of 5-colour dragon commanders. You've got the Ur-Dragon...Scion of the Ur-Dragon..."
Tiamat: Am I a joke to you?
Would you say Atraxa is the best Infect commander?
Nah, that is still Skittles,🤷
@@thomasjacobs4919 And miss out on all the Simic Infect/Prolif cards? And Vorinclex? Nah, I think Atraxa's usually quite a bit better.
I use Morophon for Elder Tribal 😂😂 It's actually a creature type, since "Elder Dragons" are as much "Elder" as they are "Dragon" in the MTG rules.
human tribal commander clash sounds really interesting. (coming from someone with a Kyler deck)
Only thing I'm not looking forward to is seeing a boring 5c humans deck from Seth. I want to see interesting builds, not goodstuff 5c with the most printed tribe out there.
I definitely wanna see the humans tribal commander clash
Crim: “I just really dislike eminence.”
Crim in the very next breath: “I just really like the mana reduction.”
Also Crim (probably): “I only eat green M&Ms, the yellow ones are yucky.”
So we need humans week and dragons week, get on it please!
I feel like commander that are basically just " whenever you do x, draw a card" are boring in general, unless it's something like Gitrog monster, where the thing you're doing is otherwise detrimental.
I totally get what Krim’s saying about Kyler. That being said though, Kyler can be very strong and hard to deal with once he gets a few counters on him, which is insanely easy to do quickly in selesnya, and white has so many options to use to keep him safe so you can continuously beat face with him. I think he’s an excellent humans commander and definitely understand the hype, personally. He may be a bit more hyped than he should be, but he’s a ton of fun.
Ya Scion is much better in terms of being more competitive since its basically dragon combo/reanimator. Had to downgrade mine to the Ur-Dragon when it came out. Kaalia is still a beast at a lot of tables even if you're not doing master of cruelties stuff. Mines angel tribal and is fantastic. Angels only have mono white commanders so they still need help.
55:33 "I don't see why you would play Selesynia Humans" has got to be one of the most absurd statements I've ever heard concerning Commander deckbuilding.
Because they want to, Crim. It's Commander. People play decks cause they like them. If they wanted to play Mardu humans . . . They would play Mardu humans.
I can understand disliking Krenko as a combo commander, but I think what makes it cool is that it can be a combo deck while ALSO being a crazy aggro tribal deck. Or it can JUST be a crazy aggro tribal deck. My sister has a Krenko deck (that I built and have maintained for her), and while every once in a while she starts with a Goblin Recruiter "win on T3" hand, plenty of the time she doesn't, and builds an army of hundreds of flying indestructible 200/200 goblins. Despite her deck being very strong, it's not super consistent or oppressive, as it doesn't have combo-ing as a *goal*.
All the talk about Selesnya vs Mardu in humans completely misses that you just need to add black to Selesnya for Abzan.
There's no true "tribal" commander in Abzan for it, but there's plenty that absolutely do the same things you want to be doing with your humans.
Ex. Tymna & Kahmal, Anafenza, etc
If you wanted to clickbait the title should have been "THE COMMANDER YOU'RE PLAYING IS BAD"
I'm looking for alternatives for Krenko, Mob Boss my friends despise him I removed Impact Tremors + Purphoros, God of the Forge, to try to make them have a better game then the next time I just dominated with a ton of goblins with Thousand-Year Elixir + Sword of the Paruns which didn't go down well they aren't using pre-con either and spend as much as me on cards. The problem is it's hard to find a "fair" goblin commander, I've tried Krenko, Tin Street Kingpin having to attack to get goblins was bad seeing as I don't like building voltron as I find it a very boring playstyle so when he dies and comes back later he's useless. Maybe trying a Shattergang Brothers goblin deck would be the way to go or making Pashalik Mons the commander.
I recomend the rakdos version of wort, for recursion in the command zone
The Ur-Dragon is the weakest of the three dragon's (Tiamat, Ur-Dragon, Scion of the Ur-Dragon) mentioned and ironically is the most fun. Scion is a tutor/combo deck which is a lot less fun in practice as you just do the same lines of play every game as tomer was saying with molten steel/skithryx. Tiamat has a fringe cedh combo insta win if you stick a dream halls and loop moriette of the frost with bladewing or use food chain for the same effect. Ur-Dragon is the most stompy/timmy deck and the eminence just helps if you want a 5 average cmc deck it being the top played makes sense as it doesnt have the same lines of play every game like the other two and actually gives you a unique experience every game.
Doesn't Scion of the Ur-Dragon lose the copy ability when it becomes the copy? So what Tomer is explaining with extra combats doesn't work. It changes into the dragon, them that's it. While you can stack the triggers, it becomes whichever was last on the stack and that's it until end of turn.
I have a khler deck and I think you're missing the fact that blink is absolutely busted with kyler or going tokens Increasing devotion makes 5 5/5 for 5. Wyrms crossing patrol a 1/1 with myriad becomes 4 4/4s on attack with the myriad sure the deck can be kinda weak to mass removal or kyler being killed every time you play it but the same is true for any go wide deck or commander focused deck
I'd much rather play against Ur Dragon than Scion. Scion is just an attack away from killing you, as there's at least 2 easy one-shots most people include. At least Ur Dragon generally plays a tribal attack-you-to-death gameplan like a normal deck.
Seeing a good Kaalia list tht makes use of Demons Dragons n Angels tht actually synergize with one another would be interesting 🤔 Not just your usual "good stuff" list
I have a Kaalia deck and it plays a lot more smoothly than the clash crew gave it credit. I have a ton of mana rocks to ramp into my big threats, pleanty of protection for Kaalia, and TONS of board wipes and interaction for when Kaalia does get delt with. Half of the deck is hay makers so when you make it to the late game you're sitting pretty
Edit: A lot of people are less scared of Kaalia these days, I can typically politic my way into the table hating the green player over me (then i armageddon but oopsies)
Good on you, deck building is a dead skill in Commander, too many people relying on filling out a template instead of using good deck building theory.
I get some part of Crim's take on morphon for dragons actually. I still don't agree with him, i'd rather have O-Kagachi, Kyodai or Ramos to be more flavorfull and still not play eminence or a scary boogieman combo commander as scion and tiamat
And the discount? Like... you've cast your 7 mana commander, do you need discount at that point?
Krenko sucks, I play Muxus!
Edit: I can't believe Tomer hates all sick children :(
better replacement for krenko: wort. just wort. i don't get why she's so slept on tbh. you get tutors and lili dreadhorde general in a deck with prospector
I built kyler as a halfway point for building 4c humans. It's just kind of a really solid deck right now and I built it out of cards I had sitting in boxes plus the precon.
Kyler doesnt look that interesting, until you think of it as a Cathars' Crusade in the command zone. Linear play, sure, but strong as hell.
As a combo player, I very much think Scion is the superior choice for Dragon Tribal.
I've never disagreed with anyone as much as I disagree with everything that comes out of crim's mouth
Kess is about how milling is card draw. She also nearly doubles the value of rituals. Her niche is double dark ritual or cyc rift into another cyc rift. Her goal is usually combo, but she also has 2 boardwipes per boardwipe, 2 draws per draw etc. She double downs on value spells that don't exile. Aka a blue spell slinger that doesn't run every extra turn spell. Only some :)
A few years back I got a hankering to build 5 color devoid eldrazi using morophon. I looked it up, and sure enough Tomer had beaten me to the punch. I picked up that deck, added a few little tweaks of my own, and it's still a part of my ever growing collection.
cant you just make the same argument against scion that you guys all did for kaalia which is that it gets killed before it gets to untap and one shot someone?
Phil's chair is the Matchspel from IKEA. #notsponsored #yet
Tomer, We all know about Scion. People play Ur Dragon instead because it's just a big dumb dragon that let you play your other goofy (or not goofy) big dragon faster.
We all now Scion, the old boogyman that combo of and / or reanimate dragon and kill you really fast. It's not a new discovery, people juste want to have fun.
Thats All super fair points, but the fact that Crim and Seth Thought ur-dragon is more powerful than scion is mindbogling to me..
I agree with Tomer on Scion of the Ur-Dragon. At it's base it has combo lines that it can go with. The most basic is the knockout combo of Skithiryx - Molten Steel for a poison kill. You can also set up a Niv - Mizzet Combo using Keen Sense or Curiosity and turning Scion into one of the card draw combo Nivs. And it also sets up the Worldgorger Dragon combo with Animate Dead, Dance of the Dead, and Necromancy. Setting up a Dragon Reanimator strategy is more explosive than The Ur-Dragon which I also play, lol.
Scion of the Ur-Dragon is super boring to play. Having a repeatable tutor in the command zone is just... Every game is the same. I think Tomer's absolutely right about Scion being more powerful.
It can be built that way.
I used all the new dice rolling dragons, and use Scion for my very own "Dungeons and Dragons" deck.
Take the initiative 😁
Scion of the Ur-Dragon player here.
I never lose to Ur-Dragon players.
In defense of Atraxa as an infect commander, that slow ticking clock is kinda the appeal of her. You could also argue it makes sense flavour wise because then you're not killing your opponents but converting them. Infect decks like Saskia rely on killing someone in one shot (or 2).
My very first commander deck I wanted to build an infect style deck, but one that wasn't built around beating people with 1 attack. Was having a hard time finding a proper commander until Atraxa came out. I understand that now there are other commanders that could replace her (and that she see's a ton of play) but she's just cool and kinda nostalgic for me.
I have Morophon at the head of my Sliver deck. Cost reduc is insane, ramping into any color mana to cast him is great. All the other slivers are either weaker, or repetitive.
I get to play all those slivers for free, and I don't have the same play pattern every game. Everyone I've played it against has been impressed by it, it's not cEDH, but it's tuned with the best slivers and lots of support.
As far as Kaalia, she's my winningest deck... If I want a win for the night, I play Kaalia.
You have Avacyn, Liesa, Sephara, Serra's Emissary, Aegis Angel, and Breathkeeper Seraph. Bastion Protector, Guardian of Faith, Mother/Giver of Runes, Greaves/Boots, Robe of Stars, Teferi's Protection, Flawless Maneuver, Deflecting Swat, Kaya, Dihada, and the new Vexilus Praetor... Many others. They also keep everything else safe.
Multiple demons tutor, and there's ways to keep your mana base reasonable and cheat these out without Kaalia.
I remember building wrath tribal with atraxa, just pure control with so many boardwhipes and having atraxa just as a powerful creature that i never minded expending infinite mana to cast
Slogurk is awesome for lands
Crim needs the mana reduction because you can't cast most dragons with 4 lands...
7 colorless mana for Morophon is the issue… just like golos… it’s just a cheat… BOTH the ur dragon and morophon are boring… because they are super cheaters lol 😅… any other is fun
Three color Dragon’s, 5color Dragon’s or legendary dragon tribal with either jodas or sisay…
I don't think you guys understand what overrated means.
In defense of Morophon Slivers, since it's colorless to cast you're able to build a non-5-color mana base around whatever tribe you're in. I have brewed a "Naya Slivers" deck around Morophon, where i run a budget Naya mana base and a bunch of Slivers that are in Naya colors, or are R/X G/X W/X.
Morophon's discount is really good for that tribe honestly.
Yes, very powerful. A guy in my local group runs this. At some point he will draw all the creatures in his deck and be able to play them for free. It is an interesting way to play slivers. Most people play queen and combo off, overlord and tutor first and hivelord immediately, or first sliver as a budget sliver deck. Those decks all play the same every time and we all know how they play. I run The Prismatic Bridge sliver deck to make the tribe unique.
Yes please to the human and dragon tribal weeks, it would be neat to see several different takes on the same tribe battle it out.
I have a $50 Krenko deck for exactly the reason Toner outlined. I like to have some decks to hand to new players around and Krenkers is very good at teaching.
Banger of an ep. I love hearing people campaign for more interesting games of magic, and the crew has a lot of good suggestions here.
I agree with Phil on Krenko, it seems like a color shift from Marrow Gnawer. I like the idea of the Shattergang Brothers as a different way to play Goblins.
When it comes to Kaalia, if there were more Mardu commanders for Angel tribal I might consider something else. When I built mine, I had angels in all of those colors I knew I wanted to run, and even in 2022, there just aren't a lot of options for that. Giada is great, for sure (and she's in my Kaalia deck of course), but mono white's rather restrictive, and if you want both Aurelia and Liesa, you're out of luck unless you run 3-mana Kaalia (which just isn't as flashy).
Kaalia was also the Commander that made me interested in the format, though, so even with a better Mardu one, I might still stick with her just for sentimental reasons. If they give us a solid Mardu Avacyn someday, I'll switch in a heartbeat, though. :P
I love playing Atraxa as straight infect only way to play her.
lore accurate too
I once won a game with Atraxa specifically because she has vigilance and flying. I had a lock on my opponents: Static Orb + Tanglewire while I also had out a Wilderness Reclamation. 😂
Of note, I have since taken apart that deck, but I am very proud to say that one opponent of mine who ran Atraxa immediately went out to find a Tanglewire as soon as our game was over.
Lae'zel is my Energy Commander of choice, you can mix and match
thanks for the comment!
Im a goblin player. First deck I built was goblin tribal. But kranko belongs in the 99. He is powerful for sure
Phil's great, good addition to the team!!!
Tatyova is better that aesi
Tomer is 100% right about Scion. I have a Scion deck that started as an Ur Dragon deck and it was WAY stronger, even before the ancient dragons were printed. Now those dragons have made it so it's a kill on sight Commander at my table and I'm actually considering going back to Ur-Dragon to weaken the deck because it just draws too much hate now.