Must-Kill Commanders | Commander Clash Podcast 104
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- Опубликовано: 17 июл 2023
- The crew discusses the biggest must-kill commanders and the best strategies to take them down!
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Игры
Literally anyone: Plays literally any Magic card.
Richard: That's gonna get you killed.
Right? But killed by what? Lol ppl like him dont play removal so if you just recognize that and slaughter those players before they can play their game youre dealing with fewer threats
@@thatepicwizardguywrong he's loaded with removal and interaction. I don't think you understand Richard's position. He runs a ton of Boardwipes alongside a ton of protection, and how are you going to punish him when he has durdling blockers in the way? He's never said no removal, that would be stupid.
@@thatepicwizardguy he only ever says he does not run spot removal. An I very much agree with him on that
@@josephpayton7522board wipes are the way to go in EDH. The card advantage is usually absurd because of 4 people.
Unless you have a way to loop your spot removal I’d go with board wipes
@@TheOtherDoughnut I think the "discourse meta" on youtube has shifted more and more towards recommending onesided board removal.
It's easy enough nowadays to kill or bounce stuff from your opponent while leaving your own stuff alive. e.g. Like nobody is really running Wrath of God anymore, unless they have ways to make their own creatures indestructible or phasing them out or EoT-exiling them.
Tomer's face when Seth said "I will top your dragon with another dragon"...
Lmao oh no that means tomers dragon is a bottom 😂🤣
@@Donovarkhallum tragic news for Niv fans
Lol we know where his head was at
@@flangwangthey already knew
The doujins draw themselves
At my table by far the biggest KOS commander is the newest Jodah. Having a static Craterhoof that also does Legendary Cascade, and is in the command zone is a recipe for becoming the Archenemy every game.
Started in DMU. It's my first and favorite deck and I love playing it, but it's 100% kill on sight. Not many understand that it's literally half a craterhoof.
Yeah my dream now is to play my old jodah against the new jodah, so I can watch new Jodah draw all the hate before dropping a turn 5 omniscience lol.
I let them do their Thang for 1 turn and then I swords it. That's always been my philosophy. Let them have fun and go off. Just crush Just crush next turn.
That card has made me quite so many historic brawl games cause I never have enough removal that can kill it....
Built new Jodah as soon as he was leaked and was playtesting later that day... I won the first game before everyone decided I had to be hated out every time lol
Oftentimes the best way to deal with must-kill comboey commanders is just to gain control of them. Highly recommended!
“If some one points one of there bombs at you flash bang them then point it at them”
This foursome has the most fun on here. They’re always making me laugh out loud when I listen. I thoroughly missed Richard away on dad duty.
I'm honestly quite surprised that light paws wasn't in there
I agree, a very very small window to interact with Lightpaws especially if you are not playing white.
Prosper is my favorite commander and because the deck has Prosper for mana, the land count tends to be a bit lower so getting rid of him is actually a huge set back in most of the games like Tomer pointed out
You forgot the most powerful commander: Skeleton Ship.
Facts ☠️🏴☠️💀
Party boat best boat
It's all fun and games until the skeletons riding sea turtles arrive
@@blipboyy..
Boats & hoes
Koma and Tergrid are definitely must-kills for me
Tergrid you really just have to murder the player since they playing a bunch of nasty cards to make her work
Number one "don't let them untap" for me is probably Memnarch
I agree to an extent, Koma you need to either kill before the first coil comes down, or have a way to exile it. Farewell is hilariously good against koma as well, as it is against pretty much anything lol
Kaalia too. Never let a Kaalia player untap with her
As a fellow Sythis player, I admit she is incredibly powerful and maybe a kill-on-sight. The last game I played with her, the table killed her 6 times (yes I paid 14 for her by endgame), and I was still able to win. There were I think 4 successful board wipes though too
Sythis is so good I just built it
I love Sythis. I am here to play a card, draw a card, and I will do that all night. Side note. Run 4-5 enchantresses in Sythis for redundancy and the deck runs a lot better.
Imo, sythis is too strong for casual. She just plays solitaire, creates a dozen value engines, and then goes infinite with earth craft and any other draw engines.
How to beat Urza: Play removal against Urza. Urza uses Pact of Negation. Another player uses removal against Urza. Urza goes away. Urza forgets to pay for Pact and loses
I think Narset is by far the best commander not included on this list, considering if built right the only way to interact with her is counter magic, which she can respond with counters of her own. Even Richard's fabled fogs don't stop her
We have a couple sometimes stax players in our group and it actually makes for a healthy environment with new players and experienced together as a check on the raw power out there
As a Yuriko player, I gotta say Kenriths Transformation is exceptionally bad against her: you attack with Yuriko and they either a) block and kill her (thus you get her back) or b) they let her through (thus you can ninjutsu in any of the other multiple ninjas you play), as richard and crim later point out
2 good points, however, as they point out, it seems like nothing answers her cleanly. Kenrith's Transformation at least draws you a card when you play it and it does require the Yuriko player to do _some_ work to get access to her again. As a Yuriko player, how would you answer Yuriko. What are you most afraid of? How do you feel about the idea that, even at a table full of must kill commanders, if you're playing Yuriko you might just be the arch-enemy the whole game?
@@chibichanga1849 If you want this kind of effect, Darksteel Mutation is better, as everyone just blocks her and thats that. The removal I'm most scared of, however, is straight up stealing her, like with Gilded Drake.
@@TheArNoir I've become a BIG fan of Blue Sun's Twilight to shut down decks that rely heavily on their commander.
Surprised that containment priest wasn't brought up for yuriko. Seems like a slam dunk if you can keep priest on the field
@@gaugeth They mentioned briefly later when they brought up containment priest for brago that it would also work for yuriko. The problem with containment priest, at least according to Richard, is that, like every 'stax' piece, it's too annoying for the whole table; if you're a meren player who is being somewhat shut down by a containment priest, do you have the discipline to leave it alone because it's hurting the yuriko player more? do you trust the general player population to have that discipline?
Was surprised Koma wasnt on this list.
2 drop simic commanders are far more scary. Kinan, thrasios, gren witchen, zimone
Not even a contender.
He’s a must deal on the 99 😅
Winota is pretty resilient against most decks. She commonly runs a lot of stax and indestructible effects so it can be very difficult to resolve a wrath-type effect after she triggers. And fogs also don't work very well since the deck will usually run kiki-conscripts which can be tutored with recruiters off the top.
In cEDH, Korvald is top tier above Yuriko etc. Uncontested Korvald into dockside for 5+ treasures is generally game over.
Exchange of Words is a great way to stop broken commander ability.
"I will top your dragon with another dragon! "
"Phrasing"
I now know what Tomer's browser history looks like
I saw the title for this video... then i saw Richard... then i asked "with what removal?" Like bro lol actually most of the commander clash players dont run enough removal options to deal with "must kill" commanders lol
i would find it more interesting to get a tier list archetypes.
enchantress, artifact, sac, aristocrats, spellslinger and so on^^
would watch.
I’m interested in this too!
I love that the each of these includes a bit of “play a Stax piece or two” as an answer. Stax pieces get such a bad name due to statis, winter orb, and other mana denial cards, while Yasharn and Containment Priest get hated out for being called Stax.
Because it sucks just having someone say no to your deck specifically while everyone else gets to keep doing their stuff
@@donb7519 Oh no, anyways.
@@FearOgre i mean you can say that but dont be surprised when youre focused out because people think it comes down to you play the game or they do
@@donb7519 Dealt with that rarely and only when I use it for those types of certain groups, so its built for arch enemy. Most groups I play with don't care what kind of cards are played.
One issue is that if the problem commander has green it'll be back in one or two turns up until it costs over twelve mana.
As a sliver player, I still think the First Sliver is a big must kill commander. If they get a turn to start doing stuff, they can easily build up a hasty flying trampling army in a single turn.
The scariest Sliver commander imo is Queen, because the combos are so easy. Mana Echoes, Ashnod’s Altar, and Basal Sliver all combo alone (though the latter two need a payoff) and there are a ton of value pieces that easily mash together and turn into infinite slivers/mana/damage
Jodah does the same thing as the First Sliver, except it cascades legendaries instead of slivers. Imo it's even more KOS
@@laytonjr6601 To be fair, Jodah doesn’t have “cascade” himself and doesn’t give cascade to the tribe cards being cast from exile. Makes up for this by being a Sliver Legion for legends.
The other big difference is that Jodah can only hit legends while First Sliver can hit anything. This means the former will likely be more consistent by avoiding rocks and whatnot, but the latter can use cards like Profane Tutor via cascade.
TL:DR - They’re different enough that I wouldn’t put one over the other, but both definitely powerhouses.
I like Seth's Pithing Needle suggestion on Yuriko
Any commander with landfall: draw a card is a must kill. Those decks are so resilient you have to prevent them from getting off the ground or nothing will stop them.
The issue is table threat assessment. Knowledge comes into play here, newer players may for instance be more scared of Grisha sitting in the command zone than a Korvold with a token engine about to come out.
Speaking from experience, Tomer is right about Prosper. If you kill it twice, its almost always over for you.
An amazing answer to Treasure.
Leyline of Singularity
I'm surprised no one mentioned the fact that brago gives you double planeswalker activations, and can reset them if they're about to die.
Without going into answers, I think about the tiers as: 1 - handle the stuff around it before it comes down/don't let it come down; 2 - handle it before they untap/have more mana/can attack with it; 3 - handle it soon; 4 - handle it eventually which is kind of everything else but some clear standouts. For this pool I put: Yuriko and Urza in tier 1, with Winota, Korvold, and Niv on the line; Sythis, Brago, Prosper, Myrim and Nekusar are tier 2; Meren is tier 3; and Sauron is in tier 4. Basing this on playing each of these once you have enough mana, which is why Winota and Korvold are kinda on the line, all you need to do once those are down is attack or do some saccing to get your value, while Prosper needs to make more mana to get moving. Niv depends on how many free spells are in the deck. I guess I'd also put the eminence commanders in tier 1 or even tier 0 since you CAN'T handle them before they come down/not let them come down, you basically have to fight from behind.
I really enjoy this one. Hopefully we can get a part 2 of this one and at the end you add the new commanders onto the visual tier list with the last ones. I think that would be super cool
Oubliette is my favorite answer to any troublesome commander
I love the idea of Korvold with Orcish Bowmasters out comboing off with an opponent's Notion Thief haha
I think Codie, Vociferous Codex is a crazy strong commander that you really need to shut down ASAP!
Codi? Whats he do?
he kinda gives a instant or sorcery cascade. He can create a ton of value really fast. Or just combo off easily! @@matthewlugo2417
Psychogenic Probe is my favorite counter to Urza's flip ability that is still mainboard-able against other decks.
I was really hoping Crim would have put his Yu Yu Hakusho Commander in Must Kill commander week.
That would have been hilarious.
Orvar is a such a must kill if you counter it or destroy if they have zero mana then they’ll just copy stuff in response you have to kill it as it hits the table or counter it
Richard isn't going to like the answer, play more removal ;P
The answer to Yuriko is still removal like Crim said because ninjutsu needs to replace a creature they attack with.
Disciple of the Vault should see more play with the amount of treasure floating around. Prosper would kill himself, and it's a 1 drop so you can get it out early.
I'll always maintain that Sythis was designed for modern in mind. A 2 Mana Enchantress is very powerful so making it legendary is important for balance. That it's so good in Commander is a problem
id love to see a podcast on all your favorite old cards. mine is tombstone stairwell from mirage its fantastic in zombie tribal decks and sacrifice decks.
With Yuriko, a good answer is Imprison in the Moon or auras that stop her from attacking. They can’t ninjutsu her if she can’t attack.
An interesting clash episode. The golos test, each of you take one of these commanders and try to make a fair deck
Fun Fact: Yasharn and Sythis are both cedh commanders, but both go stax usually so it doesnt come up as much in casual
Thank you Tomer, I'm glad I wasn't the only one laughing my ass off at "I will top your dragon with another dragon"
Tomer is always up for innuendos
Yuriko is very hard to deal with because she is in blue and black. I always have interaction. Kennerith transformation isn't great for those reasons and all it takes is the elkriko to be un blocked once. Even after I tuned down my ninja deck she was still too much
My friend had the same issue, people hated the card and he started to hate it as well since it would take over games without much effort and just kinda ruined the fun for the table.
The crazy thing about Yuriko is that even if you have instant speed removal for when they ninjutsu her in, they might be able to do so again the same combat if they have 2 mana and another attacking creature.
You never use it on Yuriko directly but on the about to be not blocked creature. As long as Yuriko is blockable, the safest place for her is actually on the board.
@@svensonb2118 sure, but that doesn't actually help in the situation I described where there are 2 unlocked creatures and you only have 1 kill spell.
@mtggoldfish on topic with must kill commanders, most people choose to run broken commanders like in this list, vs playing more fun and janky legends. I build budget ($50-$300) and casual (5-7 power) with mostly underwhelming commanders; 90% attack based win con and also do not run fast mana, sol ring, or 2 card combos. Do you think the format has been too power crept to where edh and cedh need to be separate formats? Or do you think the RC needs to put out an official power scale rating so players have a clear definition of casual?
It’s difficult to enjoy the only casual format of mtg when games dont even last 7 or 8 turns.
In my playgroup it's Atraxa, which is one of my favorites unfortunately
Play Angel of Jubilation instead of Yasharn! Nobody ever expects the Angel to be evil.
The way tomer flusters when seth says "I will top your dragon with another dragon" is really cute :D
In regards to Yuriko the most generic way to stop her without any specific pieces is to take the first hit and never let her leave the battlefield, while keeping blockers for her
The enchantments like Imprison in the moon I call "lockdown" spells as that's essentially what they do.
Surprised it took that long to bring up containment priest. It shuts down not just blink decks, but Yuriko and Winota as well.
Winota must die, over and over, until said player is eliminated. Then we can play some EDH 😊
True
Arcades, Go-Shintai, Chulane, Toxrill, honestly there’s too many
Notable cards that hate on treasures/clues/food are March of the Machines and Titania’s Song. They even let you kill your opponents with a Sol Ring!
Darksteel Mutation for an alternative to Kenrith's Transformation, the indestructible is the cherry on top
Do you think it would be fair for Commander Ninjutsu to include the commander tax when you cast it from the command zone?
42:00 If you cyclonic rift them, they'll be back at 10 mana in 3 turns with all the green enchantment ramp
Dragons are super expensive, but not so much when they have a billion effect that say "dragons spells you cast cost 2 less"
When Sauron starts attacking with his 20/20 trampling flying army and wheeling himself every single turn then it's a problem. Just don't let him do that.
Every complaint of Tomer's about Brago made me think "hey is he talking about my Astral Slide Zur" 😁
Yasharn is definitely a stax piece. It says “Player’s can’t…” on the card
I play a brago stax deck (yep, with stasis) and my only win con is scooping of the opponents cause they can't play magic and don't want to wait until I kill them with my 2/4 brago. It's pretty successful. Love it.
Yasharn does not stop fetch lands, it stops players from sacrificing non land permanents. I absolutely love Yasharn and it definitely is a casual card. It’s also one of the best ways in casual to hate on treasure decks like y’all said
It stops people from paying life to activate abilities - which stops fetch lands. I misread that the first time too.
Tivit, Seller of Secrets is pretty brutal if it untaps, and it has ward 4 which is quite a hefty price. I've started maining Soul Shatter to help deal with that commander.
Narset Enlightened Master and Kaalia of the Vast are definitely kill on sight imo
Wow. This is so funny, last night at my local edh night at the lgs. There was two miiryms in my pod.
Hmmm…..couple extra suggestions I’ve used on prosper/token strats…..March of the machines will shut down ANY token strat…..treasures, food, clue, creature token all dead.
A similar method is also pretty wide which will limit tokens to only 1 in play which is Leyline of singularity; it works by making everything legendary so if more than 1 token of the same name comes into play will trigger the ‘Legend Rule’.
This can also be expanded upon by adding other components like mirror box giving yourself a sort of “token dominance”.
Other components consist of Arena of the Ancients which will completely shut down enemy token strats.
Lastly a couple sort of insurance policy for more tribal configurations would be faces of the past to both untap your crestures and tap enemy creatures should they untap one…..if you are creature heavy then opposition is the best solution to tap down 3 different permanent types however if you pop off opposition then you will likely become the archenemy.
1:03:00 Nekuzar is better than Sheoldred as he adds blue and red so the wheel colors, +1 mana cost but way scarier buildaround.
So, what I got out of this episode is - 1) I need to play tribal mass exile on all permanents and 2) I need to immediately combo off and win before the opponents reach critical value mass (by turn 4). 🤔Am I playing cEDH now?
On Yasharn, looking at the way it's worded, you can still sacrifice treasures to trigger abilities hey? Which shuts off none of the treasure synergies that will kill you. The way it's worded is very odd
I think Arcades, the Strategist is pretty underrated for casual budget decks. Pretty much kill as soon as possible. Cheap walls that are basically 4/4's or 8/8's for like 1-3 mana that draw you a card when they enter is pretty cheeky...The guy that plays that deck doesn't think it's busted, but he usually has 5-7 dangerous walls out, a full grip of cards and more mana than anyone else on the board if he untaps once....but yeah, I guess that's not busted.
One of the main "Oh Crap" KOS commanders in my gaming circle is Ulamog. 10/10 Indestructable Eldrazi, when it *attacks* exile the top 20 cards of the defender's library. So even if you block it, you still lose 20 cards. Which is bad considering a lot of people's accelerated draw and critical cards.
Wow, happy to see Sauron on here, first commander I ever built a deck around!! Love him with reaver cleaver
Thing is, ONE Maze of Ith could theoretically shut down a Yuriko deck. It also helps if there is at least one pillowfort player who cannot be targeted by a Yuriko deck and then the others can try to defend themselves while their deck is dealt with.
For the "indestructible white spells" there's A TON. I run Azorius colors (really almost all White with a splash of Blue) and it's more or less Soldiers tribal with a lot of pillowfort and instants to prevent or reflect damage. There's Flawless Maneuver, Rootborn Defenses, And They Shall Know No Fear, Akroma's Will, Make A Stand, Unbreakable Formation, Your Temple Is Under Attack, Grand Crescendo and so on. And those are JUST the white INSTANTS so there are of course a lot of other ways to protect a board state or make creatures indestructible for white mana. It's also only 3 mana cost for almost all of those except just Akroma's Will of course and Flawless Maneuver is free if Winota is on the field...But it sounds like a Maze of Ith is also a good option versus her haha...so maybe everyone should run a Maze of Ith LOL
No angry jelly bean? Feel like that deck sneezes and wins. (Gruul Omnath)
I think the problem with ranking some of these commanders is that you're mostly ranking the expected 99. I don't ever expect to see a weak enchantress deck unless it's tied to some restrictions like saga payoffs with Tom Bombadil. The same idea applies to the sacrifice, whell and artifact archetypes. Prosper, Brago, Urza and Meren are must kill commanders because of how strong I expect there 99 to be. Yuriko, Niv-Mizzet and Winota are must kill even with very bad 99's.
Yasharn is casual. I actually think it's the best kind of stax piece since it scales with the power level of the table. Lower budget and more casual decks probably aren't playing Fetchlands, Smothering Tithes, Necropotance, etc that get hated out by Yasharn.
Counterpoint it still hits casual shit like evolving wilds so it still can be a pain even at casual levels
@@donb7519 It doesn't do anything to evolving wilds lmao. It says that you can't sac nonland permanents or pay life, so you can still sac evolving wilds.
I think Curse of Silence gets slept on a lot in Commander.
1W, and you’re Commander-taxing someone before they’ve even got their Commander out.
There’s always *someone* dancing on the Rule Zero line…
by far the scariest commander my table has seen is jadzi, oracle of archavios. its my deck and its built around decking yourself but its filled with group hug ramp and draw spells, yet as soon as i reach about 6 of the 8 required mana i am promptly nuked because even the thought of me having that commander out in 2 more turns is scary apparently
One of my must removes is nekuzar
I get a grim sense of pleasure watching people squirm as they try to coyly reconcile whether or not a card is a "fair solution" in an ecosystem where the food chain is constantly shuffling by power creep. Serra forbid players using decks designed to win as soon as they untap work for it beyond ironically asking "so does anyone have a response?"
Kenrith Transformation really does not work well against yuriko, because it does not have flash, or am I missing something?
Out of Time is one of my favorite pieces in Shorikai.
Tergrid dodged the "must kill list"? lol, I guess when I play that I can be like "well, she got demoted" lol
No simic commanders listed as must kill. We're safe boys. 😏
50:19 Talk about powercreep. End it at 6/6 flying ward 2 and it's already really good, add one of the most insane effects and it's like just shake ur head how silly it is
One issue with Yasharn is that Korvold isn't an activated ability, it's a triggered ability, so it still resolves through the Yasharn static.
"Other things may still cause players to pay life or sacrifice creatures, such as a resolving spell or ability. (2020-09-25) " - Scryfall
Yasharn doesn't affect Korvold directly, he stops all of the sacrificing that feeds Korvold, except for the attack and etb trigger. A Korvold that can only sacrifice once per turn is not a threat.
Richard is trippin'. Hate isn't stax. Yasharn isn't any worse than Graffdigger's Cage. Even Thalia is fine. If you don't like it, remove it, and if it causes salt that's a you issue tbh.
Alot of people would call it stax its not like these are truly defined terms to a decent chunk of people anything that flat out stops gameplay from happening that isnt a counterspell or taxes you for playing is stax
@@donb7519 that's not what stax is. You can't call all interaction stax. Stax is a game plan, not a card archetype.
@@MakeVarahHappen i never said all interaction was just pieces that say no to playstyles and tax opponents
@@donb7519 saying no to playstyles is a literally just hate its bojuka bogs and fair wells. A permanent saying no or taxing you is better than just knocking you out of the game. Now honest question: is ghostly prison stax?
@@MakeVarahHappen its pillowfort which most of the community says isnt stax. Dude I'm not even against soft staxy shit like yasharn but it definitely is stax to quite a few people or staxy at least plus bog and farewell are 1 time exiles versus graffdigger or the theros dog is continuous
I can not wait to make E. Honda my ring bearer
Its hilarious that the best answers are stax, which is socially unacceptable for most pods. #staxmattertoo
I agree with Tomer, if you kill prosper like twice he's done. The deck relies so heavily on the commander
I play a lot of Prosper and spot removal is absolutely the best way to deal with the deck. It is just straight up a bad deck without the commander on the battlefield.
At my table, my commander Kyler Sigarda's Emissary never touch the table. I'm happy if he do and euphoric if I manage to got him during one turn. Mostly because of that, i stop having useful commander and more all-rounders where I can have a strong deck which can run without my commander who's more a flavor one. I'm traumatized and sad also because i love Kyler XD
Agree with Tomer. As a Prosper player (I know), killing Prosper twice is enough to slow the deck down by a huge factor
Chulane! That card is the bane of my existence. Kill it immediately.
Guys..., Wrong Turn is one of the best deal with em commander cards.
In my experience one of the biggest must kill commanders is Zur the Enchanter (I'm the one who made a deck around him, but people try really hard to keep him from sticking super hard) then Ramos, Dragon Engine (also my deck)
I think they forgot that Miirym has access to blue
pre 12 mins richard hits the nail on the head with any form of stax or interaction. Once someone shows they are willing to interact at all ever, the entire table turns their fodder value engines on them for fear of not being able to combo at some point. Its very rough. Tho the best anti-commander strat is usually some kind of binding(non-sacrifice ++) effect like imprisoned in the moon or the white indestructible bug one. You can bait the player into wasting their own removal on their own creature, and then recasting it as a sort of 3 for 1.
sythis is just very similar to niv-mizzet, except instead of a damage it is gain a life, and there aren't really many just win cards with sythis, but it is 2 mana.