How Japanese Players See FE8 Units
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
- Fire Emblem is a Japanese series, but we usually only look at what the English fandom thinks. What would a tier list or unit ranking by Japanese players look like? Today I have a comparison!
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These might also be also be very OLD ratings. Most anglophone players were similar back when
They are actually not THAT old. Two of the four are from 2014 and 2017, and one of the remaining ones that I could find on the Internet Archive Wayback Machine suggests that the particular post existed since 2012.
@@aggroincarnate2763 2012 was over a decade ago
@@athath2010by 1 year
@@aggroincarnate2763 that's pretty old and honestly explains a lot of this to the point where I now feel a little bad for calling these lists a joke
@@aggroincarnate2763 Most of the discussions about unit tier lists and LTC playthroughs didn't start becoming more popular with the main fandom until after 2017, so I would definitely say this tracks.
Neimi is like Schrodinger's Bad Unit
She is bad for hardcore players because she is an archer with low bases
She is bad for casuals because getting the Orion's Bolt requires you to move quickly in a fog of war map
yeah, I kinda have a soft spot for archers (Wolt fan) even in the games the class is mediocre, but I've never managed/bothered to train Neimi
tried to use neimi once in a run for fun. worst mistake of my life, will use innes again if I want a bow user in my future fe8 playthroughs.
Neimi is a really swingy unit.
She CAN turn out good, but can also turn into a wet fart.
I have no idea why, I have never had an "average" Neimi when I've used her, she's always swinging into blessed and screwed on different stats.
Just keep her away from Sniper
@@lukewarmmilk6499id rather just go gerik ranger than use either
@@Scalpcollector good point, I just usually prefer for gerik to be able to use axes super well because of his high con allowing him to use the heavier ones without a speed debuff.
Ngl, cormag looks like the best unit in the jpn versions. He got nerfed by 2-3 points in most stats in the American version and hes still good. Imagine cormag with +2 in every stat at base and say hes not amazing. Promote him at level 10 and you get an 20str and 18spd flier for the cost of his eleisan whip. Busted
tbf that's only the eirika version. taking into account availability, it's not that big of a difference, since english vanilla cormag isnt that super duper amazing in practice. like he's still good but very underwhelming imo.
@@Mekkkah what do you mean. If we had this cormag in the west he would be the melady of sacred stones
@@no_life45678 Remember that this is FE8 we're talking about. Nobody is allowed to be above B-tier except for Seth and whomever can move Seth around. Them's the rules, apparently.
@@cartooncritic7045 cormag with a promo would be better than seth at base. He also flies and can promote instantly with a whip that is in his inventory. He would just be a flying seth
@@no_life45678 I don’t disagree. I also think Gerik is too good to be in C-tier even for an infantry pure combat unit. FE8 LTC tier lists are just run by weirdos.
Oh no this includes the tier list from srpg824, that blog has a bunch of FE tierlists and those are, uh, interesting. (It's where "Book 2 Palla B Tier" comes from, if anyone knows that reference)
TBF unit tiering that I've seen in from the JP folk tend to be mostly individual players posting their own personal evaluations more so than a result of any community effort and discussion (these are much rarer in JP compared to the English speaking FE communities) grounded on some notion of efficient play. As I understand it, the whole unit debate culture phase (and how they led to a somewhat actively discussed conception of efficient play - whereas these kinds of pursuit would be just individual challenge runs ppl would do in communities elsewhere) was rather unique to the anglophone FE communities (at least wrt the extent it took off and got ppl invested), so all things considered, these kinds of unit evaluations from JP players are not that surprising to me.
Yeah, I think this is something that comes from being in a sort of "FE bubble" for lack of a better description. Most people's evaluation of what's good and bad in most rpgs is nowhere near as good as in the english speaking FE community. It's incredibly easy to find people who seem to think buffs and debuffs are bad in 90+% of rpgs when the opposite is the case for example. Another example being Rab from Dragon Quest 11, a very useful character especially on higher difficulties, who often gets called the worst character by more casual players.
Yeah game balance is very vibes based. It changes depending on the level of information you're operating with. Blind vs repeat playthroughs vs an entire community that analyses the game through a standardized lens. If you go in blind not knowing exactly how hard the endgame is or what tools you'll get down the line, growth rates and level potential are absolutely rational things to prioritize. If you do three playthroughs and Lute performs really well in all of them, evidently Lute is very good. And if you're part of a community that aims to judge units objectively, you'll recognize _any_ unit can be good with investment so you need a more comprehensive set of standards to compare them
@@cruelcumber5317 I think some of it has to do with difficulty options as well as how much grinding is encouraged. Like, in SMT 3 you basically either figure out that buffs are good, or you get mashed by the Matador.
Obviously this video shows it's not foolproof, but I think the fact that most Fire Emblem games don't allow traditional grinding encourages actually thinking about the mechanics and helped lead to the English FE community's strategy discussions and tiering
Good consideration but I disagree. I used to browse the Japanese views of the game and the reason they are focused on caps and growths is because they battle each other through Link Arena.
They play Creature Campaigne and get all their units as powerful as they can get and then they fight each other. The notion that they didn't have a community is silly. They were link battling before online capability was readily available.
Any of their lists in the past would consider completion of the entire game, aka ruins and unlocks, while preparing for the final bout that was the Link Arena with their friends.
The legendary A-Tier marty is even better lol
I think a large part of the debate here comes from whether or not the player cares about LTC efficiency vs leveling efficiency. Asian communities are well-known for liking grinding in games while that sentiment is less common in the West, so units with good growths being rated highly makes sense to me from that perspective.
That said I do often find in the GBA emblems in particular that people rate "bad" units too harshly. This is noticeable in FE6 a lot where people will try to push a bad Alan or Lance through unlucky levels into being useful, and as characters gain significantly less exp as they grow in level, there is a certain amount of growth wasting that goes on. Even in Mekkah's FE8 Lunatic run there were wasted opportunities to give Neimi a level or two, and I think the argument is... why not? Chipping with her costs nothing on one range units except your own patience, which isn't a problem with the unit. If she gains 3 levels and gets Str+Speed 3 times and makes it to promo, she can promote into something that can do a lot more enemy phase and you took advantage of the lucky growths you got. That's a core part of the FE experience and it's good strategy to take advantage of units who grew well regardless of their overall perceived goodness or badness.
For this tier list, I think following the logic of a theoretical endgame where stat caps actually matter would make them more reasonable from our perspective, even in the absence of such an endgame. It's like Awakening in that regard, where caps do actually matter as well as growths due to the higher enemy stats on Lunatic
I like this sentiment, it's why I value Ross as a trainee unit. His growths don't compare to units like Donnel and he doesn't have outstanding utility, but training him up is so easy that you can get him to tier 0 level 10 before the end of Chapter 4 only slowing yourself down a little, so why not roll those odds and see if you've got a passable unit after that? This logic helps Ross, Neimi, and even Rebecca and Lowen to an extent (a bad unit with good growths and a good base unit who is in a make/break situation by his weird growths), especially regarding FE7 where the game throws at you at least half a dozen overtuned prepromotes to help you in case your investment units don't cut it.
Also for Neimi in particular I get annoyed when the same people who say "Seth easily solos the first 10 chapters of the game and super fast" then say it's a drawback you have to play Chapter 5 fast to get her promotion item. It's a fog of war map, but it's a tutorial fog of war map and I've never failed to at least protect the villagers either by body blocking with Vanessa for a turn or just killing the boss before it's a problem.
The Colm v. Rennac thing isn't actually inconsistent at all, Rennac might still have better stats than your level 1 Colm, but they're not good enough to do anything, meanwhile Colm gives a Fire/Light support to clearly A Tier unit Neimi
Play in your style I say! I take everything into mind when using a unit! Base Stats so I know what to expect (I ain't sending a LOW DEF unit to the front lines without taking that into mind!), growth rates so I can make plans among plans for how that pans out as they level! Keep Stat Boosters (I don't make a habit of EXPLOITING any feature that lets you get more then what the game "legit" gives you as you progress) to patch up anything lagging in my "final line up" (I cheat by looking up the final chapter or remembering and seeing the "final Deployment Max" that way I know who will be the characters sans the ones who are FORCED deploy like the lords/Avatars so I know who to put my FULL attention on going forward) and what weapons will work best with them. Their Affinity and who they'll be supporting (I'm a Romance and Friendship shipper with this series! Love it when I see alot more "Friendship Forever" Paired endings then Romance ones! Also love how the haters that whine about "waifu Emblem" forget those paired endings because if they don't, it causes their insults and position that it's NOTHING BUT Romance to fall apart!) As you say, I tend to pair characters I feel fit! Colm and Neimi are childhood friends and YES I'm aware he is dickish towards Neimi a good amount of the time, but I also imagine if paired he does get better at this! Frankly I'm more optimistic then "Pessimistic" on shit! I always wonder how they enjoy ANYTHING with their mindsets, but then I figure "they don't really give a shit! They just want to BITCH about something while they do LITERALLY NOTHING ABOUT IT for attention")
Also kind of silly to compare Rennac when he joins to Colm when he joins when theres a HUGE gap of chapters between their join chapters (never got why people do that type of comparing! Yes it's good to have character's base stats be where they should be for that chapter to avoid making them TOO OP, but as you said, that's like saying a "Level 1 newbie at the start should be as comparable to a Mid game recruit build for that point of the game! It would be one thing if Colm joined RIGHT before Rennac chapter, but since he doesn't ten to one he may SURPASS Rennac or be as useful if not more then him at the start! Plus you don't have to pay him to join unlike Rennac, yes there is a FREE option to do so! But if you haven't been using her! Is it really worth putting her on the field and risk endangering a benched unit just to get another unit? While Colm you've had since the early game! Never got the Early game unit hatred among some in the community! If their not OP by the time the Mid-game comes around, then their "worthless" compared to their replacements who were BUILD largely for the sake of "you don FUCKED UP" getting the early units killed!)
Isnt colms base lvl 2?
@@NotBoeDusky Yep
I wonder how Japanese fe 8 players view the ruins. In the west we view the end of the game as ch 21 and pretty much ignore the ruins. If Japanese players view the ruins as an 8 chapter extention of the campaign then these ratings make more sense.
Yeah I immediately wondered that too. I think if I've ever played through Lagdou it must have been a decade ago - do the enemies scale to significantly harder than ex. Darkling Woods?
Like I vaguely remember seeing a room with a bunch of draco zombies, but those have a weakness (all the monsters do) so I don't feel too concerned?
@@zeoxyman
Generally, Lagdu Ruins is about on par with endgame, but there's some really really cracked parts, like dracozombie spam
@aprinnyonbreak1290
I think the first floor is about on par with endgame, but it gets harder from there. I've never actually created the ruins. I've tried 2 or 3 times but inevitably I lose a unit.
@@zeoxyman I don't remember vanilla, but on lunatic most of the enemies on the later floors of the ruins will have mostly capped stats. Think 30 speed Gwyllgis, 29 strength 24 speed 25 defense cyclops, etc. The ruins are very scary.
@@blahmaster6k yep. If LTC players think 8 is too easy they should add ruins on top after. It's kinda odd no one ever runs that kinda thing, or talks about doing that. It scales up from the final, so it would make sense to go for that as a collective challenge instead of just ltcing the easy story. Tower still makes sense to skip, due to it being way more grindy from it all scaling off a single chapter per map.
I think it might be important to consider the lens through which players view the game as a whole. It's common in English forums to view "beating the game" as killing the final boss, and "optimal play" being some form of getting to and beating the final boss as quickly and "efficiently" as possible, and then you stop playing. But the Lagdou Ruins exist in the game, and while in discussions they're primarily seen as a grinding tool they can also be seen as a ten-map extension of the campaign. If you don't play those extra ten maps, you're effectively skipping almost a third of the content in the game (FE8 has 23 story maps on any given route). Many players will want to play through all the content a game has to offer and not skip out on some because it is optional.
If you see the ruins through this lens, then it makes sense to value endgame stats more. Early promoted units or units with good bases but lower growths are going to be significantly worse in the creature campaign compared to a random 20/20 unit.
Think of it like the Thabes Labyrinth in Echoes. It's entirely postgame content that won't be played by someone just trying to beat the game, but it is an entire extra dungeon for players to challenge their team with. A player who never tries to beat Thabes is missing out on the hardest content in that game, even if that content comes after killing the final boss of the story. The ruins in FE8 are the same.
It's also possible and perhaps highly likely that the Japanese community simply doesn't place value on turn count the way the English speaking community does. After all, turn count is at the end of the day a pretty arbitrary measuring stick for a playthrough. It's useful for bragging rights or to show how "good" you are at the game, but at the end of the day it only has power as such because other players recognize it as a measure of skill. If players in the early days of the community used something else like real-time or experience points earned(other games in the series do have an EXP rank), or any other arbitrary stat as a measuring stick, the value placed on turn count would diminish.
If no one in a community cares about turn counts then comparing units based on how efficient they are from a turn count perspective is useless. If all the players care about is building a team full of combat units with the best possible stats for the purposes of clearing the ruins, then endgame stats are going to be the most important aspect of a character. After all, the ruins are all rout maps. Warp isn't really going to be important, movement isn't nearly as important, plenty of the maps have tight corridors and 1 range only enemies, and being good at combat is about the only thing that helps you beat the ruins faster.
Also for units like Lute, the +5 magic cap from Sage is absolutely noticeable when enemies have 70+ HP, it means up to an extra 10 damage per round of combat. In the main game enemies aren't going to have more than 50 HP for the most part so Lute is going to one-round everything anyway, but in the ruins that isn't the case at all. You can't rely exclusively on Excalibur to kill enemies with high HP when almost every enemy has 60+ hp and many have 80+.
Thank you! Finally, some well-rounded, common-sense commentary.
This guy gets it. This is exactly the lens the Japanese players see through in regards to FE8. The idea that Japanese players are more casual is laughable.
They play to beat the entire game and then battle one another in the Link Arena. The end goal for them, at least from what I remember from scouring through Japanese stuff from 2005 to 2010 is the Link Arena. That's why combat stats and caps are so favored in their lists. Unlike the western players, they battled each other. They held tournaments locally for people to fight. I only remember because I made a mental note of their preferences for caps, constitution, and weapon advantages. The west hasn't even done a weapon tier list, which was considered in Japan in the past because they would duel each other.
@@ThatGuyThai link arena definitely explains things like prioritizing falcoknight. Even with pierce, swords and some postgame body rings are going to probably be more useful since you'll want access to silver/killer/brave swords and not just axereavers, and it also gives the option to carry a lancereaver to beat lances instead of tie the weapon triangle.
@@blahmaster6k exactly, the lists of the past considered entire load out selection and triangle advantage is massively important in a link battle. You might realistically only get a single round in before that unit bites it, so option flexibility, speed, braves, reavers and slayers along with the best legendary weapons become much more coveted.
Also being mounted or armored is balanced in Link Arena as there will always be an Ephraim with Reginleif on every squad lol. Team composition of those 5 units and what they offer is a whole different metagame. Or was it 4? It was so long ago I can't remember.
Anyway TLDR these ratings were more or less rated against each other at their peak performance in the Link Arena vs what we do, which is rate them vs performance in a story completion run.
It's the only gba game that offers a little side meta, so that's partly why FE8 is so skewed in growth favoritism.
Agree with this! Feels like "Meta worship gone wrong" where your a "Heathen not to be taken seriously for DARING to go against the Meta!" I think I remember a FE RUclipsr getting dogged by some when he mocked "Warp Skipping" as something he doesn't care to do! Like somehow him saying it outloud that he doesn't care for Warp Skipping was him mocking EVERYONE (AKA Them) of doing it when he said it wasn't his style (And I agree, some of us LIKE to "chew our food slowly and savor it" over just devouring it whole in the most optime way that doesn't lead to choking! I usually find the latter get kind of annoying with being "bored" once they've Meta the HELL out of shit because they sucked the fun out of the game doing so!)
I mean I LOATHE using too many units in the same class in my final army set up! I might have two paladins, or so! But I might have a Great Knight, Swordmaster General/Fortress Knight, Wyvern Lord and Falcon Knight, Warlock/Dark Knight, Bishop/Holy Knight, you get the idea! Some people LIKE Variety and don't care for "how fast can I beat the game!" I might do that as a challenge. But that's mostly for MY benefit! Not to boast to others. But you'll be surprise how many people treat this as "Serious business" when I play that video of the hockey player saying "it is just a game, why do you have to be mad?" When I see folk like that because seriously People are ready for Jihad's just because of dumb shit or reasons that they only regret AFTER they went too far and can't walk back!
But I guess it's cause of the usual "If the majority aren't think the same as I am or believe, then I'll look like a fool so I must ATTACK anyone who DARES to think different or discredit" and to those folk as said "It is just game, why do you have to be mad!?!"
So many people rank these characters assuming both the Tower of Valni and Lagdou ruins are played and/or completed. I would really like Mekkah to do HM regular game + 1 clear of each tower efficiency based list. It would be interesting to see how all the extra levels would work to further improve the outlook of "growth" units or if it did much at all.
Probably it don't do too much on it's own, because Valni get unlocked before the bad growths units and in efficiency you cannot risk crossimg the map
Can we stop and appreciate how perfect of a name "History of the Emblem" is for an FE blog?
What's so perfect about it? That it sounds slightly like Mystery?
@@FabulousJejmazeyes
if we ever lose the blog, the sequel can be "New History of the Emblem"
One thing I think that should be pointed out with the emphasis on growths and caps and stuff is that Creature Campaign exists and that JP players have access to the Secret Shop with unlimited Stat boosters, so they can feasibly cap more stats then usual, that said no amount of Stat capping and growth rates in any world is going to make Ross being much lower then Amelia or Ewan logical from my standpoint.
That shop is in the western releases too. It's just no one really goes to Lagdou. They care about caps because they would have tournaments through the link arena.
@ThatGuyThai but if you factor in link arena, then any unit is 5/5 because you can cap them all anyways and force the unit to go 20/20 and feed every stat booster possible down its throat.
@@leargamma4912 you think that, but then they fight and you start seeing who is actually dominating everyone. Who is wielding the weapon advantage? Are they doubling? Little questions like that matter in a Link Battle.
You can't exceed caps. That's why they matter in that frame. 24 capped SPE units are doubled by their 28+ SPE opponents. Now throw effective damage onto that, take away mobility advantage and punish them for being mounted at all, now you start to see their framework.
That's why Eirika was cracked. 29 SPE cap allowed her to double nearly everyone. She wields 3x effective weapon to mounts, 3x to Wyrms, and can Runesword spam while being able to reave lances. She hard counters her brother in the Link Arena, that's why she's so high.
I understand the arguments for Amelia and Ewan being bad, but Ross starts off with a weapon that allows him to chip and he's caught up to your group in a few chapters, then ready to be good the whole rest of the game. He's not that hard to train, and he's filling a niche that's nice to have at that point. I'm using him in a playthrough right now and he's making my life so much easier.
Amelia on the other hand requires you to train her when keeping her alive is way harder, with a far worse weapon, only to end up with either the most generic or the worst classes in the game. And Ewan is a trainee when probably your entire team is promoted.
So I can't imagine Ross not getting the highest rating.
@@Zorafin amelia is better then ross in every way you make her a general with boots and no getting amelia to 10 is a friggen joke not hard at all she capped EVERYTHING
To be fair, out of the GBA games, FE8 is the one where it makes the most sense to rank units based on endgame performance / stat caps etc rather than efficiency, because the ranking might be taking into account the postgame Creature Campaign or the availability of grinding.
But creature campaign doesn't gove you anything major, does it? Just a gold gem and some extra bosses?
It gives you additional units so I see why people might want to do it.
@leargamma4912 tbh I haven't played creature campaign in years, but I just meant that if the disagreement with the rankings is "these are too based on endgame" then creature campaign adds a gameplay beyond that endgame, and things like low availability matter less
The Japanese lists focus on caps in FE8 because creature campaign has purchasable boosters. Japanese players will also Link Battle, I remember seeing an old ranking in which had Duessel as one of the best if not the best Link Arena as a result of caps and con with weapon triangle advantage.
@@leargamma4912 Postgames don't need rewards. You're doing a postgame because you just want more content. (If anything, good rewards from a postgame are trolly - what is left to even use them on?)
This duessel disrespect is so fucking wack I can live with any other thing but duessel is the goat 😢
I think it would be cool to see a Japanese rom playthrough using their recommendations and see how it turns out
@@lenk1432They messed with a bunch of stuff. Enemy levels, weapon stats, character stats. They used to make old fire emblems easier for international releases, but you get some changes that are just weird.
Endgame =/= final chapter for some people.
Endgame = hardest content aka late ruin floors.
I forget that Japanese versions for the older games often offered differing gameplay experiences. Very interesting video!
It's pretty amusing that a lvl 10 colm in JP version is almost as beefy as the promoted Rennac, and he has more speed and the same str. LVL 10+1 colm was stronger than Base Rennac in every stat, which is pretty weak. I would say that Seth is probably noticably weaker when enemies have an extra 2ish in each stat since he will miss speed/strength breakpoints a lot more, this is probably even more relevant for Franz.
Small note for Amelia, it wasn't mentioned but she is actually 1 level higher in JP so it is slightly easier to promote her.
Curious to see if Mekkah would do a tier list after playing the JP version. I feel like boss xp or something mightve been nerfed. I swear Seth gets more than 50 xp from killing the chapter 2 boss on the ENG version
I think you can justify putting off Gerik promotion for one chapter in Eirika route. There's nothing you really need him to handaxe in creeping darkness, seth is going to run ahead and do the right half before gerik gets there, and paladin 2 does well to the south west.
Gerik one rounds the random one range monsters without the hero speed boost. So he can get a level or two fighting them. He does want a speed level if he can get one. If your paladin 2 isn't cooking you might want to promote him and have him handle the south west though. Basically I don't think Gerik makes creeping darkness much easier if you promote him vs if you don't.
I think you should promote him as soon as there's either something you want him to handaxe, or as soon as the promo stats matters.
Or when he gets 2 speed naturally. Which is what I do. It's an easy single player game. So....
it does partially depend on what weapon type you want him to s rank. If its axes, you gotta promote immediately and spam steel axes for weapon experience. His only weak point is gonna be speed and garm completely removes that issue anyways.
If its gonna be swords, you can justify waiting until after chapter 11, have him fight reinforcements etc. and try to fish for some speed. You are not gonna miss out on anything that way and it might make a difference later on.
I think I play this game with a similar mindset as Japanese players. I don’t play with the goal of finishing the maps the fastest and using the characters that immediately provide the most help. Instead I play with a completionist mindset and also wanting to have the strongest possible team during the endgame and post game. Right now I’m playing and I set rules for myself like not using an prepromoted units and leveling everyone to 20 before promoting, also fully completing maps, stealing all stealable items, opening every chest, etc. Therefore I prefer using units like Ross, Amelia, and Ewan because of their higher endgame stats even if it means I have to grind a bit. I don’t even grind too much because I keep the party small so they can mostly all gain levels at the same pace using the story maps
The whole video felt less like comparing EN to JP unit opinions and more just a discussion about the lens of what makes a good unit. Which was still enjoyable, but… y’know.
Im curious as to what the sources are, because I feel like its more likely that the people who gave out these weird ratings are the Japanese equivalents of new players who spout the same stuff here
I wonder how old these reviews are, because even if they're aggregate scores if the reviews are old, then sentiment may have changed. It's interesting, nevertheless.
It might also highlight the difference in that there likely aren't as many JP FE influencers/RUclipsrs/streamers. And surely less with Discords or community networks where they discuss this everyday with debates raging and what not.
I'd be interested to see reviews like this about other or newer FEs. You might be able to glean mindset change from more modern reviews by the same people, if they exist.
One thing that seemed to still be true was Waifu Emblem. With Eirika, L'Arachel, Natasha, Lute, and Neimi all scoring very high in spite of all not being better than many other male units. These mod comments be mentioning Horse Emblem a lot, but not mentioning Waifu Emblem lol.
It's based on actually playing the game. Not ltcing. Meaning likely considering the extra 20 odd maps in tower and ruins. 100% plays of fe 8 make more sense with these perspectives vs playing only like 30% of the content in a ltc.
Tldr: I like Vanessa more on Flacoknight on the lunatic patch.
Just a note about vanessa, I have been playing alongside Mekkah on the lunatic route split patch, and I advocate for making her a falcoknight on this patch specifically. Even for chapter 9 erika alone, having her able to stall and attack the pirates on swords can significantly change the pace of the map. There's a very good chance you will be using tana or cormag as a damage carry flier later on, so the flexibility in weapon type can elevate her utility slightly in the mid-game before the con or pierce become too relevant and then you can simply drop her when the party reunites. Her avoid is really quite good against axe units even when compared to joshua or erika and you feel it a bit more in lunatic thanks to the higher hit rates on the axe units. I sometimes found access to the iron sword to be a more reliable poking strategy on high avoid enemies and would often help to set up kills for other project units.
i am once again asking for a drip Tierlist so Neimi becomes S Tier
Now everything I’m saying is assumption, Idk how much of this is true, that all said…
I think one thing to note is that we might not know the context of the community being polled, I think if we were to poll a large portion of the english speaking playerbase about the more popular games we’d end up with a tier list that’s at least a little more based on personal feelings towards characters.
Like when people are talking about lapis, and Engage Anna, and Alcryst, people do have a bias towards their funny growth units, proc units, or the characters they think are cute. And people usually know what is good in FE, most people agree that lapis should reclass for example, but the ways the best players value units isn’t universally understood by the community. Some people talk as if it’s a bad thing to use resources to make units good, like people will get on Chloé for her low strength growth as if she can’t ammend it with forges etc.
I assume the JP community does have more casuals in their communities because the games were actually sold there long before they were here, and because the earlier games likely reached a wider audience.
Newcomers to the English speaking FE community also have all these superfans that were there first.
If you want to see bad meta takes in the english community just look at creators like iced coffee gaming (not everything he says is wrong, but some of his takes are silly)
I guess the short of it is that for one reason or another, the culture creating these tier lists is different.
It also might just be incorrect to average all the lists they averaged. Like I wouldn’t conflate serenes forest with like a twitter poll.
What's wrong with Iced Coffee Gaming? I find he's one of the most informative FE channels out there.
It's not that Japanese players are more casual, completely the other way around. They have been playing it far longer than us, so their rankings take place under the assumption of completing the game, which includes Creature Campaign, and build their units for the Link Arena. None of the Western tier list discussions are based on an Arena battle, nearly all of the Japanese lists back in 2005 to 2012 were made under Arena conditions, because Japanese players actually had little local tournaments for Link Battles.
@@iridium137 he’s not completely horrible, but he’s not crunching numbers or anything, he bases a lot of his reasoning off feelings rather than data. And some of his arguments are just… questionable.
“Framme is around as good if not better than Seadall”
“Anna is one of the better units.”
“Timerra is good.”
“Spend all your sp on weapon power skills”
“Do 4-star well.”
Etc
Like he has reasoning behind those opinions but they’re kind of silly, and compared to people who have a lot more data based reasoning he just doesn’t compare.
He’s not talking about stat benchmarks, or unit performance on certain chapters, or what can be done to take advantage of certain units, he’s recalling his own personal experience with the game and he has biases.
I think his opinions of timerra and anna are super close to “amelia and neimi are good.” Like both those units are growth units that are underleveled when you get them and require investment to preform well, and are only a little better than contemporaries after investment (Anna has only 15% more magic growth than Chloé.) but he always gives them that investment, and they turn out overkill, and he thinks that makes them good.
It’s not heresy to not have FE opinions not backed up by data, but it still means he isn’t super convincing and it means he’s really not a good source sometimes.
@@ThatGuyThai that’s probably part of the reason Tethys is so low.
You... inspired me I guess you could say to take a look at some JP rankings for FE6 (my favorite) and WOW was it like stepping into some bizarro dimension where things I take for granted are flipped on it's head and yet... I kind of ended up agreeing with some of the things stated?
Okay first of all,
1. Echidna is consistently an E tier unit. Echidna. ECHIDNA.
2. The Pegasus knights actually got somewhat fair rankings ranging from C-A (with the obvious exception of Juno)
3. Treck is always one rank higher than Noah. Always.
4. Rutger is unsurprisingly considered one of the top tiers, however the runner-ups are Fir and Sin. Clarine, Perceval, Zeiss and Melady seem to be skirting in and out of the top tier.
5. Klein always gets grilled for his recruitment before being rated, then he usually gets a mediocre score.
6. The Nomadic Trooper seems to be considered the best class in the game.
7. Marcus and Zelot's contributions are acknowledged... but they're still rated rather low.
So to all wondering, no this doesn't appear to be an FE8 exclusive thing, the JP side seems to prioritize late-game/post-game potential.
So the JP players are hardcore Gerik fanboys, got it. I had a crush on the battle-hardened scar daddy too.
They must be onto something. They rated my girl, Lute, a 4.75! Finally, my girl has been done some justice! I absolutely love her haha. Also, sage Lute is best Lute.
I think it's great that Mekkah can take something he vehemently disagrees with, and still treat it with respect and try to see where they're coming from. He's like, the paragon of humility and open-mindedness.
Also nice to see most of the comments are people genuinely trying to understand the differences in opinion. Very little judgement (until you get near the bottom).
I've started focusing on 4-way Supports so I have mini-armies. Example:
Garcia (Bow) -> Ross (Axe) -> Amelia (Lance) -> Neimi (Sword)
Each character has an A and B support, this chain has full physical weapon coverage, and I can just send them off to do their own thing.
I wonder when those rankings were done? English players back then also thought the same way after all.
I wonder how much better Gerik would be with 11 con. Part of the reason I prefer ranger over hero is that nobody can freaking pick his heavy ass up. EN Hero Gerik has 15 sodding Con, so unless you giving him the boots, he can fall behind very easily.
Weirdly gaining an entire horse doesn't add any Con, but the Hero armor gives +2? Ranger also gets more defense, but hero gets more speed. You'd think these would be the other way around.
It would be interesting to see what Japanese fans thought of the units of the Kaga games since there was no barrier for entry like there was here. Obviously when there is work needed to be put in to even run the game the fanbase will skew more to the niche like it did with Western fans.
Japan views FE ranking like a chess computer views piece importance. The king piece is by far the most important everyone else is way less important unless you can win the game immediately.
It would make some sense if you said the west viewed it like a chess computer does, but it makes zero sense to say that about japan’s rankings
I wonder if some of the difference in opinion is caused by FE8's lack of difficulty because you can do pretty much whatever you want and succeed. I'd be interested to see a similar comparison for a more difficult game.
FE8's lack of perceived difficulty is because Creature Campaign isn't on most peoples board to accomplish as part of their journey with the game. That's why Japanese player lists often look so different. They're scaled for CC and Link Arena.
After all these years of watching your stuff, I'm finally playing FE8 again, and now I see where the difference is between your rankings and theirs.
I would have thought watching your stuff I would develop more of an efficiency and speed runner mindset, and in most FEs I do. But this one for some reason made me sit back and relax. I did Tower of Valni just to gain a few more levels before promoting before the next chapter, and really grinded Natasha just because cute cleric girl. And I would sit back with Ross back when he was a trainee just because I didn't feel the need to rush or push.
With this mindset I'm not thinking "Which one of these units can I use as-is to quickly squeeze through these chapters?". I'm thinking "Which one of these can I invest in to get better results in the future?".
It was just interesting to notice that difference in the way I expected to play the game vs how I actually did.
Still, thank you for your videos and showing me that Amelia is bad and Seth is good. I may not have used him back when he was overpowered, but it was nice having him around in case things went bad, and now I have a ready-to-go unit for my team without any extra training. I didn't have this last time.
And I didn't realize Amelia ends up just as good as Seth while requiring far more training.
Totally going to use Ewan though. Summoner looks far too sexy to not use.
Gerik 5/5
Gerik: "I like the sound of that"
im doing my first fe8 no grinding hard mode run. honestly i find neimi great because she has an exclusive promo item that is available very early. can have a promoted neimi very early on with 0 grinding. there is a ton of easy experience for her to get in the early chapters and there are a ton of fliers. i havent been milking turns and i havent visited the tower of vulni. i did the Ephiram route and i just beat chapter 15 so far (to be clear ive beaten fe8 at least 10 times at this point and ive been playing it since the game released so im very familiar with the entire game) (and yes im using seth he is level 14 at this point for me)
so for giggles i did another run real quick just to see the early game and i tested to see how hard it would be to get neimi to promote without grinding. I did give her a bit of favortism in kills, but by no means was it a solo neimi experience (to put things in perspective by the end of chapter 5 i had like 13 uses of the iron bow left,) she got no boss kills (those all went to seth) for chapter 6 neimi got to fight like 3 enemies since i rushed through the map to make sure i got the orions bolt (the whole reason for argueing neimi isnt e tier trash) at the end of chapter 6 she was level 9 with 86xp with the orions bolt. in chapter 7 she was level 11 when i promoted her, that was from the fighter and the mage in the top left corner and the 2 soldiers using the ballista. her promo bonuses are massive. honestly i put it on wendy levels from fe6 as far as improving a unit. gets 1 range, canto, +2 move , +3 in both defenses, water walking etc. Im not saying she is amazing, but id argue having access to the early promotion item makes neimi worth using over garcia where garcia has to wait longer for a promo item since your first one is in chapter 10 and he has to content with others wanting that hero crest. same thing for gilliam and the knight crest. i know that both of those units are better in the short term but you dont need the improved bases of gilliam and garcia because seth can just shove through the early game and its an extra horse unit you wouldn't have otherwise. i cant think of a single scenario where you would want to use gilliam over neimi except for maybe chapters 3-6 (forget 7 way too much movement) i thinking neimi should honestly be at the top of d tier according to this tier list.
Never understood why molder is so high in the tier list
With Syrene, I wonder if the devs intended for players to abuse the triangle attack to get her the levels she needs. The buffs she got seem to point toward them thinking a bit more damage for the big triangle hits and some extra survivability to be out there initiating them. Also, they seem to ignore that she comes with a killing edge and can use it if I remember right.
Not much of a bonus, but she does have one more con over Tana and Vanessa.
It also looks like the weaker player units and stronger enemies across the board increase the amount of experience available through chip damage and other means.
This means units that one round for us early on won't for them.
Making the units that we see as weak or tough to raise much easier per map for Japanese players.
The tougher game makes their feelings toward mounted units more justified.
A lot of mounted units get lower caps. Looking at the paladin, great knight, and general all sharing a 24 spd cap with Ephraims great lord. And the general isn't even mounted.
With possibly a slower pace that they would have to play to compensate for the difficulty, suddenly grounded units with 6 move aren't as "slow" as mounted units anymore. In the process, avoiding a lot of effective weapons like horslayers and halberds.
That being said, another rating I always get a little confused about is Colm.
He's no combatant at first for sure. However, he has one of the top 5 growth totals in the game. While that spread is lopsided to a fair amount he has the same str growth as a lot of cavs at 40% if I'm not mistaken. Multiple playthroughs of mine without boosters going to him have seen him cap multiple stats.
Caveat to that is those caps.
Forever stuck at 20 str cap isn't so bad.
Some units by the end don't even crack 20 str/mag.
In my last go I got a colm that did get strength screwed. He did cap spd and skl before promoting, though.
Here's where I advocate colm for assassin.
For me, Colm is a unit I don't mind getting to 20 for promotion. Usually, this makes him the master seal recipient.
By that point if you've managed lock picks well and recruited rennac, then the stealing part of Colm's kit can seem redundant.
Making him an assassin in a typical playthrough makes sense in other ways too.
His fast and strong support with Neimi (one of their favorite characters) and high ish skill by the time he is an assassin means out of all possible assassins he is probably the most likely to crit and silencers. The str cap is the same logic as Marisa. Female Swordmasters cap 22 str so why worry about that when you could one shot.
But with colm, it's even more likely. My 13 str screwed 20/12 colm with neimi support was lucky enough to proc silencer on his first attack fighting Morva. Even if he didn't, his crit was 56, and hit was 100. Morva's hit was 42 and would have maybe left Colm with 12 hp
He needed that silencer, though. He did 0 dmg otherwise. But Neimi with the support one rounded Morva as back up in case that failed.
I've written way too much now 😅 I'm gonna leave it here.
Progressed is definitely the wrong word. The better word is diverged.
Also Japanese Amelia is way better than Franz. That 5% goes an insanely long way on a recruit. She does exceptionally well with that extra 5%. Especially because the way that we are considering the game is a very small amount of players.
Ultimately, your opinions can't be compared to the ones that we're looking at because they're not being considered in the same environment at all. It just doesn't work. I was hoping that this would be a comparison of Japanese players who are playing the game the same way you are, because that actually be interesting, but these sentiments are like comparing a casual player to a competitive one. It's a discussion that has no merit
Amelia is so funny to me because the first time I used her she was an absolute monster and every other time has either noodle arms or paper skin which seems to be most people’s experience
I actually always use Colm as a combat unit and somehow he always turns out to be a great combat unit
y’know I’d love to see what Japanese players have to say about the Kaga Era units
I wonder if these tier lists are super old? These unit ratings line up with what English speaking fans were saying around 10+ years ago
Knoll 4 lyfe We love heavy ass yellow pages phone book flux
The beauty of FE is that you'll sometimes get a completly different view of a unit just because of lvl rng in my recent run I managed the impossible challenge of having a bad seth that got completly speed screwed
Weird, seth has bases than carries him until almost late at level 1
Iirc in the GBA era the growths were made higher for some characters, so no wonder the ranking can be so different between JP and EN fans.
Just checked the differences, all of this is in terms of the International release:
It seems like they actually nerfed all the mages (Artur, Lute, L'arachel, Ewan) by decreasing their magic growth and Moulder got HP and Speed nerfs. Amelia was also nerfed in HP and STR. There are also some random minimal nerfs here and there.
In terms of buffs, they are not that great it seems units only received HP buffs (Seth, Innes, Forde, Kyle, Rennac), Joshua got a bit of STR, and Marisa buffed as a whole. Gilliam got STR and Skill, and Ross got 5% in Speed.
Also, creature campaign characters got a bit buffed, but don't matter in the campaign at all.
In terms of bases, actually MOST changes where nerfs (Franz, Vanessa, Neimi, Colm, Artur, Lute, Innes, Saleh) Tana lost STR and DEF for Skill and Speed. Cormag got buffs in Ephraim campaign, but he got massively nerfed in Eirika campaign. Syrene also got strength, luck and defense. Gerik also got constitution, Duessel got A swords instead of B. Rennac got massively buffed.
In conclusion, I'd say a lot of characters actually got nerfed... so "good" characters for the International version where actually BETTER for JP version (except for Ross and Ephraim route Cormag). Whereas some "bad" characters got buffed but are still not considered exactly "good" (Gilliam, Syrene, Rennac)
Afaik the japanese fandom just doesn't care about tiering or LTCs nearly as much (i know that LTCs are already a niche thing in the english fandom but it's still mostly just an english community thing)
Amelia haunts Mekkah yet again
From what i've heard over the year western player value the mobility and offense of a unit above all else and as far as i can tell Japanese/Asian don't care for it and look at overall performance.
Honestly, I see the Japanese rankings more as popularity contests than as actual unit rankings 😂
Right, like cuteness and good personalities matter a lot lol
@@user-yc5lb8fw5rMarisa was liked as a character but the Japanese reviewers still ranked her low.
Wtf is Orson doing higher than a healer? We talking -growths or something? I genuinely want answers cause -growths is some fucking VERY high level standards that is just generally never gonna apply to more than 2% of folks playing Fire Emblem (maybe a bit more specifically for FE8 since it is notoriously easy, but I'd say 5% at most)
Orson cope. No one actually sees him as the exp thief he is. Second only to Franz, because Franz is harder to see as a thief.
This is pretty interesting!
Neimi rating I'm guessing is 4/5...and it's 4/5, nice. I guessed 4/5 because I assumed they would overvalue her being an archer.
read mod zebra and thought they were talking material condition IM GOING INSANE
Literally just did a playthrough while training up both Neimi and Colm, got supports up to A, and still thought they were trash.
If you NEED to have a bow user (and you don't) there's at least 3 or 4 better units to fit the role.
The only thing I agree with the JP is Lute, how is such a powerhouse so underrated in the rest of the world? Saleh can't even compare the utility and power that Lute provides, an unpromoted Lute already surpasses easily Saleh, the only thing Saleh is better is defense and HP, at level 16 Mage in an average playthrough Lute easily surpasses Saleh, plus, Lute have the option to promote to Mage Knight if you wish extra con, mov and rescue utility, promoting her to sage just makes it more direct the comparison with Saleh, way more magic, speed and luck is better than a little bulkier and accurate Sage (Not that skill matters than much for her since anima and light are pretty accurate)
Saying that another sect of a certain fandom is better or worse because of how they play, it's a video game. If they beat the game and have fun there's no argument, no one is better or worse
I agree!
Yep, sadly some assholes tend to think differently! It's one thing to "hate the opposers" and it's another to hate on "the neutrals too!" (Some tend to HATE those unwilling to engage with them or DARE to like what they designated as BAD like doing anything they don't like is a personal attack on them when it's not!) I wish the extremists would stop being Extreme, but that's an unattainable dream that will never see fruition as long as one person chooses to be an asshole
Its so interesting how different communities can have such different opinions about the same game. You'd think that the fact that there are so many people in each community would level it out.
I think its just that the English speaking Fire Emblem community is incredibly hardcore, like I don't think I have seen any other RPG community that has spent as much time analysing and having online arguments about the games in my entire life. I don't know if things like LTC are/were popular or known in Japan, especially back when these lists were made, and examining units from this perspective definitely changes how you look at them.
I think it's actually a matter of this video being largely based on opinions that were the norm during the mid-2010s, which was before the efficiency discussions started getting traction with the fanbase at large. I think framing these ratings as what Japanese players still think as if a minimum of 5 years haven't passed is very weird.
@@cartooncritic7045 That's true I actually forgot how old this list was
In my opinion, Ephraim and Eirika should be higher on your list because of their twin legendary weapons.
I'm pretty sure at base, even Eirika can kill a gorgon with Sieglinde while other units have to share the other weapons.
So logically, Vidofnir should go to Vanessa or Cormag, Audulhma to Seth and Garm to Duessel which make the three cavaliers and 2 fliers without legendary weapon compared to the 2 twins.
While those things are true, the reason I think he doesn't put them higher is that you can do that for what? 4 chapters? Mekkah's tierlist is how they perform overall in the entire game.
You're not going to get many people to S-rank in any given weapon type though, so functionally every prominent fighting unit in your squad gets a free monster slaying legendary (the game hands you 6 of them back to back + the twins' after all). The lategame is a victory lap because of that, or worse yet, it's warpskipped. Hence Eirika doing okay in it at low investment isn't that special.
@@CyclonSilver Warpskip only reliably works because of Myrrh.
Second, only 2 legendary weapons are really usable (lance and sword) because the others will slow you down or you might babysit some units.
Sword only because Seth is already A in sword, Duessel only have 6 moves which is not great, Excalibur is hard to use because Saleh is better to use as a staffer...
Using Eirika and Ephraim is pretty much having the double pool of legendary weapons, a little less if we include Duessel's Garm.
@@truezephyr4431 it's more like 6 chapters (close to 1/4 of the game) but well in my opinion having power with no investment is pretty huge.
@@birdbig6852 That seems pretty specific and heavily based on low turn clears where you would definitely want to warpskip though
Because why would you play fast the entire game and then waste turns at the very end
You have Moulder overrated, he belongs in B tier.
Moulder is extremely brown, the most brown unit in the series. He looks like he was rendered in gameboy color. B for Brown.
Would be amazing to see you play with some JP speedrunners, or do PVP against them, language barriers be damned!
This is like Gamefaqs
This feels like how the western veiw was a decade ago. the western community has more numbers so maybe its :progressing" faster? Maybe these are also old ideas for japan fans too? Maybe its the youtube comunity that has had the influance? Im not sure.
These opinions were curated based off posts to old forums anywhere between 5-11 years ago, and they track almost perfectly to how the Western fandom saw these units during that same time frame.
@@cartooncritic7045It would be interesting to see how the current japanese community sees the units now. I imagine theirs views have changed, as the views in the anglosphere fe community evolved
Neimi rating, D, D, D, C. I hope they realize just how bad 2 range only is. Will edit my reaction.
Edit: Man... I got the fourth C correct. But my thought process is, its incredibly bad to have archers. 2 range only to start is not good. If it was an FE game full of Pegasus Knights early game I would put her higher. But its FE8, no way she is 4/5.
Oh yeah this uses the scuffed ltc tier list where Moulder is the third best unit in the game and everyone sucks lol
Tbf everyone sucking is an fe8 tjing not a tier list thing
@@krows-love I think it's more accurate to say that FE8's "thing" is that most characters are actually pretty good but nobody cares about that because everyone's steamrolling through with Seth, who makes everyone else look bad by proxy.
@@cartooncritic7045 define good bc I agree not everyome is nad but I will say half the cast is pretty shit
@@krows-love Maybe if the only way you play FE is through LTCs then that might be true…
@@cartooncritic7045 sacred stones has 33 playable characters not including orson
So for bad units I feel are just terrible no matter how you play main chapters are: Neimi, Amelia, L'arachel, ewan, rennac, colm and marisa
Units who are bad but not on the level of those guys: Ross, Lute, Dozla, Syrene and Knoll
12/33 is almost half and Im not even considering units like Gilliam Innes and Garcia who are technically functional just in bad classes
I love that Forde is still a meme in the year of our lord 2023
looks very similar to old ratings in spanish
I would say nemi is 3.25
I was wrong.
As a fan of Ranger Gerik and Brave Bow Innes, Neimi is the worst bow unit in the game. Even if bows were the best weapon type in the game instead of the worst, Warrior Ross and Garcia would be a better option.
Neimi's niche is that she doesn't take from anyone to achieve her promotion and offers what Gerik can offer on horseback earlier, Innes too.
So if one enjoys nomads, she's definitely up there. Her low con helps her ferry units tremendously. Yeah you have to peg a few more units, but the levels she can catch up through a quick arena match or two. Archers actually fair really well in Arena and it won't slow down your turn count much if you have her head there for a turn or two, you can usually fit it in as you're pushing to clear.
Sacred Stones offers a lot of experience for project units since their lords give between 6 to 9 levels of experience due to their auto level mechanic from split rejoin.
I enjoy Ranger Gerik but you're going to be hard pressed to get him to B bows, let alone A, so the only real thing he's shooting with are pretty average bows with admittedly great bases. Innes outshines him as an archer, but an invested Neimi is better than both of them imo.
Neimi can sport Innes weapon ranks with Gerrik's utility, and start early. If you want to use bows, she's a great candidate. Shits on Rebecca, Will, and Louise because bows are 3x in this game. Shin and Sue are only ones in GBA that outshine her as they sport 8 move and triple effectiveness when promoted iirc. Shins hard mode bonuses are really tough not to love haha
Guess: Neimi at 3.5 cause you hyped it and I can gamble well. (33:50 )
I actually agree with the JP players about Gerik being 5/5. Last time I used him he maxed out his speed and strength without much exp preference. If I'm recalling correctly I didn't even raise him to 20/20 I think he was like a 17/14. (I'm a big fan of not early promoting.)
I am calling Neimi a 4 because cute girls and little sister
edit : yeah...
Seth bei g a top tier is at least what everyone agrees on
Is there an LTC, Speedrun, race or draft race culture in Japan? Because I feel like those communities are the ones that have uncovered the true potential of units among English speakers. When you're trying to go as fast as possible, the less capable units fall by the wayside much quicker.
The "potential" is also gimped to just beating the story. Honest ltcs should include ruins afterwards. There is no reason not to, it scales to endgame higher. I don't think most English LTC players know that.
Someome that claim tonhabe been in the jaapmese comunity has answered that.
Instead of those things, Japanese players used to battle each other in Link Arena.
And i can kinda see how Link Arena would result in a completely different meta.
Dunno about races or drafts but there are ltcs, 0% growths, Ironmans and something like playthroughs with instadeath for units levels up 2 stats or less? Don’t know how popular these are though
These opinions are reasonable for casual players in the 2010's. They seem similar to the character rankings in GameFAQs.
Yeah lots of familiar things like really caring about stat caps for some reason.
@@user-yc5lb8fw5r People do forget that FE8 had a PvP feature and a lot of players would max their characters for that reason.
- Tana is up there because she comes as "a couple of more levels" than Vanessa with better stats and overall better growths. She also comes on Chapter 9 (Epharim route is pretty much Chapter 10 unless you grind with her for whatever leftover soldiers there are) , you can just train her and use the Elysian whip and have a 20/1 Wyvern Knight in less than 30 mins for Chapter 10 lmao. Also she is one of those units that particulary can max STR , Skill , Speed , and Luck. Also , both of her routes are great for Tana , either Falcon Knight or Wyvern Knight , she can excel on both of them. Tana is not that hard to train at the end of the day , so probably their criteria + metric does makes sense
- Gerik as the highest rated unit on 5/5 might not make that much sense but I think its mostly because he comes as a lvl 10 Mercenary with great CON , great bases , great growths and great availiability for Eirika and okay for Epharim. Its probably because Gerik does not need babying to train him to lvl 20 and promote him , he can just be on the front lines destroying enemies while getting EXP to promote. And once he promotes , he just becomes more of a beast , and both Hero and Ranger he is very good at them. Probably "Hero" would be chosen for Japan cuz it does better combat wise cuz access to axes and you can just spam hand axe to any range unit. By the way , Gerik will never get RNG screwed on growths , his bases are just so good lmao.
But Seth also easily destroys enemies and he's rated far lower than Gerik. So, if combat is so important, shouldn't Seth be higher?
@@vanjagalovic3621 As I mentioned , its also because of the "20/20". They dont seem to put "Seth goes brrr" cuz they probably dont have "efficient play" as one of their things. Thus why Eirika is rated so high , its cuz "if you promote her at 20/20" , she is like Tana but sword lock on a horse but capping skill , speed , luck and maybe STR but gets rating drag down because its harder to train her , and even with late promotion she struggles until she finds her spot which is probably 20/10. Also they are considering Post Game like Lagdou ruins
Mekkah please dont bait me with Seth ratings of 3/5
okay but are these Japanese casuals or people like beamcrash (THE original legendary LTCer)
That's something that I wish was emphasized more because as it stands this video is like a weird retread of Mekkah's old "Making fun of GameFAQs guides" videos but it's framed like this is what the whole Japanese community believes in 2023.
"Lute can't double with powerful tomes if she gets speed screwed due to her low con"
If only there was a way to fix that 😮
What are you gonna do? Spend a body ring so she can wield Elfire? Another ring so she can use Excalibur? A speedwing so she isn't stat screwed? A lot of people covet these items lol. She's good with just Thunder tomes.
@@ThatGuyThai I can’t think of too many FE8 units that want Body Rings more than Lute so I don’t see a problem with giving her one.
@@cartooncritic7045 I like her low con for her mounted aid. She can torch everyone with Thunder but she definitely is made better with those upgrades I agree...so is Saleh...
@@ThatGuyThai maybe start with the promo that gives 1.5 body rings unlike what the author said
@@TheShapestofSnatches right...I do that and she can now cast Thunder with her attack speed. I already implied that, now spend another Body Ring and she can cast Elfire to come up short of Moulder's base CON.
Prefer to just give both Body Rings to Saleh so that he can double with Bolting and receive +4 SPE from Excalibur only weighing him down by one.
Also get to skip training Lute entirely if I opt for Saleh, but Lute is incredible wielding just Thunder tomes, I'm telling ya, no need to spend those rings on her.
She has 3 CON at base. Getting a mount brings it up to 6. Even if you spent a ring on her, you're only matching Saleh in constitution. Another ring you're matching Moulder. She receives the least amount of bonuses even with rings spent, compared to her fellow anima mages.
The Tethys comment is great… “she doesn’t attack good”… well she’s a dancer…
She attacks as well as your best unit, it's pretty hard wrong.
real and true
this is just casuals ranking? who made these?
Man Marcus is gonna get like a 1.5 rating.
Someone make a romhack where Ephraim and Syrene replace Eirika and Seth. Tyty.
I am yet again here only to comment that Neimi is based. Best unit in the game
I am very hesitant to actually trust the sourced websites. While the mod dude seems to have an understanding of what FE8 elitists believe, they don't seem to respect it. I can't help but feel like there was some cherrypicking done to create this narrative of "Look, Japanese players do what the western casuals do!" in a way to validate their way of thinking. I would trust this more if I saw hands from both sides of the community in this. People that respect both sides of the gameplay, because I definitely think you could easily find 4 Fire Emblem communities in the West that think this way too. I don't think one way or another should be deemed absolutely correct, but this just doesn't seem like it was done in good faith from what I can see.
Neimi > Seth CONFIRMED! So glad they nerfed her base HP she would solo the game so easily! 😭Did they not learn their lesson from Rebecca during FE7? They keep making such broken bow units.
Interesting video...
fordest (like forde + first)
forde is never first
If you don't play engame then growths wont really matter. If you play endgame and ESPECIALLY against other players, growths are going to be the most important thing. It's really that simple.
I bet Neimi is 3/5 for no reason
Holy, Rennac and Syrene are exceptionally bad in JP version. Ratings are whack to say the least.
Cool. I was a little mad when Japanese players rank Eirika so low but i like using her anyway bc she's top teir to me.
literally the only reasonable argument against using seth is that he makes an already very easy game even easier and even less engaging or interesting
honestly that 2 exp seth got couls have been easy 20-40 exp for another unit, and sure im not in the pit fall of drop seth but if you over use him nobody else gets exp and becomes more useless, there is a proper happy medium for seth to help out but let thew rest or even one or 2 early units to get levels
idk what the jp players are thinking with most of these rankings. the Seth and Saleh and Vanessa ratings are absolutely wild. Saleh is both a fantastic combat prepromote and the best staff user in the game. who else are you gonna use to warp? moulder??? LMAO.
only thing i kinda agree with is tana > vanessa. and even then theyre so close that i wouldn't rate vanessa that low. if Tana is a 4.85 then Vanessa should probably be a 4 at least.
i prefer tana over vanessa. both are fantastic for the entire game but the availability difference is made up by better bases and growths. and most of the early chapters are too short and easy to count for that much. tana is a safer option to heavily invest in to be a better flying seth for the 2nd half of the game. her higher combat ability compensates for that later join time and her join chapter is great for getting tana fed.
flier promote item is limited so you do have to choose between tana vanessa and cormag. in english version cormag tends to get left out as the worst of the 3 but jp cormag is so insane at base you might as well pick one of the earlier units to leave behind and not promote. that might be why vanessa gets docked so much cuz if you intend to trivialize the 2nd half of the game with tana and take advantage of jp cormag's much higher bases. +5 hp +3 str +2 spd +2 def +1 res is absolutely insane. How the hell is cormag not rated higher by jp players? actually insane. even considering the lower availability, non seth units matter more in the 2nd half of the game because thats when they really contribute rather than just be a self imposed challenge of using a non seth unit.
I also agree with falconknight over wyvern knight. because wyvern knight has a chance of crashing the game so if you use a wyvern knight you have be very careful when juggernauting you will effectively snipe ur lord and cause a game over by crash. i consider the inability to safely juggernaut without risking a game over to be VERY VERY BAD. also falconknight just has slightly more bulk than wyvern knight. so yeah when it comes to immortal juggernauting 0 brain flier gameplay, falconknight is the way to go.
You can turn off animations for wyvern knights to avoid pierce softlocking the game
that bug is also only in the international releases of fe8, so can always just play the jp version to not have to deal with it
I feel like these differences are based on culture. Japanese culture created DBZ, a story where power is gained through hard work and practice and there is value in that. Whereas Western culture created super man who is just sort of already a god among men and ya know that's good enough to get the job done. Or Heracles who was born with godlike strength as a more apt example.
The only clown here is the person who dug up several ANCIENT JP posts that probably don't reflect the modern thinking over there either as a 'gotcha' against all the people telling him his babied and blessed Amelia doesn't make her a good unit.
Damn they rate Franz almost the same as Seth, that is blasphemous in any alternate universe.
My philosophical question is: why do the Japanese fans and those in the West INDEPENDENTLY come to the same kinds of pitfalls (growths over bases, Jeigan bad, etc.) and therefore the roughly same ratings of units? It's so curious that they came to such conclusions as "OMG Amelia best unit ever" and "Duessel = prepremote therefore bad" just as we have, it seems almost beat for beat and uncanny how much their wrong opinions match our wrong opinions. I felt like this episode is basically just a rehash of your FE8 gamefaqs guide reviews.
I think part of it could be attributed towards the natural dopamine people get from numbers getting bigger and players growing attached to units that they put effort into. IMO, old tier lists like these are more like rankings of how "fun" a unit is to use in a casual playthrough.
Because it's not a "wrong opinion".
He's an idiot comparing an LTC tier list to people's thoughts on units doing a 100% run.
@@Named_NPC what you said plus back then, people played with creature campaign and link arena in mind. That moves the goalposts in terms of end game rankings if they're going to fight after all is said and done. The rankings take the unit at their maximum capability and then account for whether or not the investment of capping them out was worth it. That's why Seth and Franz are so low. They're amazing in story, but very weak in the end game CC + Link Arena.
Our typical tier lists would be in reference to mid game stage in comparison to Japan and how the west used to rank. Now they're all for story completion, thats why we rank Seth as God, but he's pretty lackluster in the Link Arena's final bout.
The Japanese community were big on link battles before online capability emerged. That's why units were evaluated based on their apex, rather than just when they join, because their metric includes the very end of the game, which most people have never even played in the west.
Because that's how RPG characters are usually ranked.
Most RPGs have a relatively easy "main story" only to crank up the difficulty in the lategame and especially the post game with secret dungeons and superbosses. It makes no sense rating units on them making the easy part easier and faster if they don't perform well when it actually matter.
I never played the CC or completed Lagdou, but those things seems to check up well with "normal RPGs" in being noticebly tougher than the base game.
If anything i'd argue Efficiency ia often wrong by ignoring this kind of things. Echoes hardest challenge is Thabes, not anything in the main story, and yet nobody consider it.
@@noukan42 the classic story is over at level 35, scales up to 100 anyway.