It feels a little odd that they're giving the Hussite Wagon characteristics of the Organ Gun. I feel like it would have been better to further workshop the defensive mechanics more, instead of making the unit feel more generic
@@RoastCDuckSeptember 1999. I was there when it was released, as I'd been playing the original Age of Empires until then. What you describe as something to be fixed wouldn't have necessarily been considered a bug, as that was just how the mechanics worked. Still does; units in general do not attack while in motion.
Just turn this unit into garrisonable unit like rams. Each garrisoned archer-line would shoot projectiles that deals for some damage. Each garrisoned militia-line would deal damage per second near the wagon. The garrisoned units keep their damage type (e.g: garrisoned skirmishers would deal bonus damage to archer-line).
exactly. this is just another orjan gun. give it a large hp and armor boost when unpacked and make it unable to fire while on the move. a weaker mobile tower would be a fun mechanic OR give it the ability to garrison units, just like a tower, with range units giving extra projectiles. this would be in line with it's original concept (they made it to tank ranged attacks in front of units but basically no one uses them this way bc it's impossible to micro them properly). this would mean that adding just a few unupgraded wagons can make your archers immune to skirm counters
Very confusing why not just alllow to shoot all projectiles at once. Nefing damage output and hp makes them even less tempting to use as support unit. Devs probably wants to make sure , that nobody will use this unit, which will die even against villagers.
@@valger3652 having thought about it for a moment, it could be that they really want to reinforce its position as a support unit in a ranged exchange. Although if this is the case I don't think its a great idea to do this by making it basically useless in other situations.
yeah, like garrison HC and add projectiles. I think that would be such a fun mechanic. Halbs and HC can add projectiles. Imagine having halbs and being able to jump into the wagons when the champs get on top of you and wreck them with guns 11 @@DraconianEmpath
@@DraconianEmpath No unit can attack from inside another, the closest thing is towers with archers. But yes, you can put pikemen inside them an ungarrison when cavalry gets closer.
Ornlu's conclusion was that Hussite wagons still suck but are much better than before. That's completely different from SotL who incorrectly claims they were nerfed.
This is completly ridiculous..the unit is so cool and by far the worst unit in the entire game with not a single situation where its worth its cost. There just isnt any use for it, its completly dead, absolutely worthless and absolutely terrible...and they nerf it further. Considering Bohemians are already one of the worst civs to play overall this just makes no sense at all and the balance team has been doing very questionable things lately and not even looking at data for a mere second.
They wanted to be careful about this unit, Bohemian is already really strong civ in late game without this. So they are trying to make balanced hussite wagon that works properly, though the intended use might not be the same as initial plan.
@@CrnaStrela Odd. Hera just dropped a Civ tier list about 2 days ago and rated Bohemians as fairly lackluster. These "new" War Wagons are going to get even less use then the old ones with how shit they are now.
@@QaRajhCreations A groupe of Arambai could act as fast mangonel, groupe of Hussite wagons cant do shit. Arambai arent best but are far from worst in my opinion
Honestly, could just turn it into an APC and units can fire out of it like a tower. Could get some really massive output by putting in HCs, but if you lose a wagon those HCs are in a very vulnerable spot. It would be interesting to see this if they could also have the game check what unit types were garrisoned in it. For instance, 2 Arb, 2 Skirm, 1 HC. The wagon would carry them around and it would fire 2 arrows, 2 spears, and 1 shot. It'll give some protection and increase the amount of agency that players have while being fairly authentic to the original concept.
I like the APC concept where garrisoned units can fire maybe with a reduced movement speed or the mentioned pack/unpack mechanic. The different projectiles based on garrisoned units is not yet in the game so I think that would be too much
what does APC stand for? But I agree making them more into fortifications would make some sense. I thought of the pack and unpack mechanic sotl mentioned during the video, too. Maybe making them into somewhat weaker, but movable towers
I wanted it to be basically a moving wall that you can pack and unpack. Two wagons less than three tiles apart will build a wall between themselves. You soldiers can pass through the wagon part like gates.
@@user-sl6gn1ss8p Not really. Make them super weak to onagers, scorpions and bombard cannons (and towers). Those protective planks on the wagons are only so thick.
I feel like packing / unpacking would be very interesting, but I think we could do something cooler than just a treb-style switch between armed and moving. I wonder if we could treat them something like a pop-up palisade, and when ordering a group of them to unpack, they could be made to form a line, so the player can essentially speed-build a little wall in front of their cannons, trebs, etc. The passive ranged damage reduction to allies behind it would still work, and while they wouldn't be a super durable wall, they could do the job of protecting your cannons from light cavalry just enough to give you an edge. We could even give them an attack with a really short range, like, a range of 2. Historically the crossbows used in a Hussite Wagon situation wouldn't have a lot of range, as they were mainly used by inexperienced shooters to pelt enemies with imprecise but very spicy fire that can pierce armor at short range. So if melee units choose to punch through the Hussite Wall-gon, they would also take a bit of damage from the shots as they fight to get to the juicy treb behind it. The low range would keep the use of this defensive, and combined with the ability to move them, it makes them the intended "defensive support for offensive operations" unit. Gameplay-wise, this could be really fun, but also really difficult to implement. The idea of popup palisades or short-range towers definitely sounds like a recipe for shenanigans, but with how much micro this could need if implemented poorly, it could also be completely useless in an actual game. Also, just style-wise, I think Hussite Wagons look super dorky as they are right now. Because they're treated just like any unit, especially by AI, you just see a swarm of these overgrown carts with no real movement to their unit model wheeling across the grasslands like tanks, and when switching directions they rotate in such an unnatural way, it just looks silly. Like a legion of medieval Daleks. Surely we can come up with something better.
The loss of damage is probably it's biggest hit. I really like the Hussite Wagon, but the old wagons are a definitely better. They swapped out the historical stand and fire for game hit and run. I'd much prefer an unpack mechanic like Spirit said at the end, but making Bohemians more mobile with hit and run attacks with both Hussite Wagons and Handcannoners sounds good as well.
I think they're trying to appeal to pros, instead of being interesting and unique, they try to make it fit the pro meta, a simple example is how they turned sicilians and burgundians into more generic civs (thinking of hauberk for sicilian cavaliers)
@08vinster That sounds lame. But I'll still play Bohemians the way I always do, stand and fight with Hussite Wagons as makeshift battle tanks, so this change won't affect my playstyle.
They added the +6 to the villagers against wagons because the only time you use the wagons is during a early castle drop. Then theyre the best UU in the game lol
Agreed, I think a lot of people expected the cover area to be fixed/buffed. It really doesn't work as expected. Think it was bad they buffed the dps vs low armour, instead of the support role.
I remember a unit (square formation) of hussite wagons, hand canoneers, monks and hufnice. I do not remember the numbers but it was a big unit and it was devastating. :)
What the developers often don't look at are the campaigns. These big changes could severely increase the difficulty of them. Some campaign missions stopped being playable for me in medium or hard. Especially when the scenario mostly used a small number of unique units for the player to fight with. What were reasonable battles turned into hit-and-run and avoidance strategies.
Spirit of the Law Just thought I would like to mention that one of my favorite videos of yours was the one where you analyzed all the wonders of aoe and deduced what buildings they are based on. Seeing an expansion on that video to include news civs would be great!
Hussite wagon is increasingly becoming a similar unit to waragon. They obviously have no inherent use and, above all, they are not funny. I want them to be mobile towers that work with the unpack mechanism.
I think testing the unit damage against actual groups to get a better feel for the impact of the secondary shots would have been worthwhile, given how much of the total potency got shifted into that. I still think this is probably a hit to the unit but it's probably a lot less drastic there. Either way it should be more defensively-oriented just for vibes and distinction from other units.
Wagons should have a buff aura that adds ranged armor to infantry and archers inside that aoe radius. Just like the energy shield 'aura' in Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds 🌃⭐
Honestly don't like this unit as it stands at all. They should do something truly unique with them: make them actually be UNPACKABLE fortifications. So give them the same or better protective functionality and even buff their previous damage, but make it so that they need to UNPACK (very quick pack and unpack animation) like a trebuchet, where they get good defensive boost for allied unit attacked over them. Imagine moving your army forward with a line of these in front, the enemy charges you and you quickly unpack the wagons, making a strong defensive line that needs to be broken or flanked to do normal damage to the rear. Or deploying a line of these in a chokepoint to hold off an attack while the main army retreats. This would be more historically accurate AND make this unit more interesting simultaneously.
It should have a decent primary weapon (one larger higher dmg cannon or fewer hand cannon with higher dmg) and be garrisonable with archers and hand cannoneers and then fire like a castle (when unpacked, if one wants this mechanic).
As a casual (PvE) Bohemia main and gunpowder player this is just a big disappointment, I like to use my wagons as mobile strong points not like gunpowder cavalry. I appreciate all 5 guns firing now but the damage nerf is just way too much imo and the villagers casually clubbing an elite unit is outright silly.
I think it should have worked similarly to Battle Fortress from Yuri's Revenge, a slow unit with loads of HP but weak attack that can garrison multiple foot soldiers who can keep attacking while protected.
Kinda disappointing that the devs just want to make the Hussite Wagon into an tanky Organ Gun. Some garrison/pack+unpack mechanic would be appreciated to differentiate from the organ gun.
What if there could be garrisoned ranged units inside, just like it is with rams and siege tower? If it was the wagon tanking all the dmg and the units could have some bonuses to atk or range (e.g. +1 range because all the archers inside the wagon were a bit higher than on the ground lvl)?
If you want it authentic, have it garrisoned by ranged units, protecting them against melee attacks from cavalry. Then it doesn't really need an attack on its own, just allow the units in it to fire. (Might be overpowered this way?)
The unpack / pack mechanic makes the most sense similar to a treb. I think an additional negating of incoming damage should be considered if you also use the box formation. As for the attack they would need a spirit level formula to do it so that high pierce armor targets get full damage while low armor targets get damage by the number of projectiles that hit them.
if the Hussite Wagon really wants to be buffed, maybe it can be set to "0 range attack by the opponent will receive 2 damage per hit" think of their use and the opponents like knights and axeman, it is possible to have some spearman inside the wagon
I was quite disappointed you didn't repeat the damage test against groups of units to account for the differences on accuracy. You are generally very thoughtful about that stuff.
Would have liked to see how they look against a group of high armor infantry, as the secondary projectiles seem a lot better against a clump of units instead of a single one.
I agree that a pack/unpack mechanic would be nice. It would be interesting if they gained building armour becoming like a palissade with the capacity to attack when unpacked, maybe dealing some extra damage to cavalry.
yeah you can fix the concept with a pack/unpack concept where you can shoot in both case, but unpacked deals more damage and it has the same rule fore being targeted as a building. This way an enemy unit would prioritize whatever you have behind the wagon
I find it interesting that pack/unpack mechanics have always felt extremely weak to me in AoE2. Most of the strongest civs are cav civs, and cav is extremely fast and good at taking advantage of stationary units. Despite this, starcraft 2 has an extremely powerful unit called the siege tank, which uses pack/unpack mechanics. Starcraft 2 is also a much, much faster game (Average game length is less than 20 minutes, most games go around 10-15). There are also extremely fast units that are clearly faster than what a comparable unit in aoe2 would be like. All in all, I think if hussite wagons were to have a pack/unpack mechanic, it would have to either be fast and provide a minor bonus, to give a decisive advantage in certain situations but not take too long as to offset the advantage, OR have a long pack time that provides a major bonus. I'm leaning towards the latter, as this would allow a few key positioned packed wagons to provide serious defensive bonuses to open maps, helping them in those cases which not necessarily aiding them in long, drawn-out "mass wagon" strategies.
8:53 The problem with a packing mechanic is that, unlike trebuchets, they don't have the range to justify using it. If anything, their onager weakness just becomes worse without the ability to move. My take on the unit is that it should have cavalry armor, since its original role was to stop knights from charging into civilian fighters. Or maybe we can take a page on the centurion and make it apply an aura, but instead of a buff we can have a debuff to either cavalry movement speed or attack speed. Of course, the cost of the unit should be adjusted accordingly, and you're still vulnerable to onagers, infantry and villagers, but it would make its role much more defined and impactful
Dear Spirit of the law, could you please make a top 10 civs for 1v1 random land map, standard rules, on Rise of nations extended edition (very similar to AoE2DE)? I know you like Japanese, and they are good there! I like your sweet voice and deep knowledge.
I don't understand why the devs nerf unique units to the ground for no reason. First the arambai (which was kinda broken when it was first introduced , but now they're a meme. They were overnerfed).Then Organ guns were nerfed, and are trash now since they cant kill mangonels or knights in castle age (their most common answers.. who the f*** cares if they kill unarmored units faster, they already did that before??). Now they manage to make an already fringe unit, the hussite wagon, even worse. Seriously why?
The hussite wagon was fine before. Now it's useless. There was no reason to play Bohemians before, now there's even less! Forgotten Empires can screw off. I'm getting sick of their visions.
This update reminds me of the Mayan Hul'che Javelineers tech... The additional attack of 1 damage that ends up doubling the initial attack you'd expect to be reduced to one damage. This update just adds attacks that one would expect to be reduced to 1 damage each--- additional skirm level attacks without bonus damage. Having additional 1 damage attacks or attacks that'll be reduced to 1 in 'most' situations are effectively the same. Just as the graphs in the video show: it can only be an advantage in cases where the wagons are used early, or vs enemies that are lagging behind in armour upgrades for their trash units.
So, the unit that historically win against knights, have zero melee armor and now become even worst? Seriously, rather have them act like trebuchets and have melee armor when standing still.
The proper role of the wagons should have been as mobile palisades that you can unpack similar to trebs to make ostensibly open maps more closed and support bohemian bonuses to ranged units. Give them high pierce and melee armour to physically block enemy melee units when used in a square formation, keeping the bonus damage weaknesses the unit has or tweaking a little to ensure there's at least a few other counters than just mangonels as was the case on initial release.
I would make them more similar to rams that could shoot. Like you would be able to garrison pike inside it and it would have some melee damage. Or maybe have it be able to train pikes from it
I feel like they've decided that people would micro it anyway so they reworked it as a way to battle masses of trash, concentrating on area soft attack.
To me the use of hussite wagon mainly been vs low pierce armor unit like archer or running under tc to raid. I think this kinda makes it better for that. Ofcourse the unit still basically sucks and I would just make a few to annoy and distrub rather than use it as my main force. I think these changes won't change much.
I liked the old slow fire better, felt more unique. I feel like a better solution might have been to fix the reload so when you told it to move it would reload (with reload time not just instant) the main projectile once more and restart the fire sequence from the beginning.
Okay, I loved your idea of packing and unpacking. Thought of it not exactly a unit but a technology that affects infantry and archers+skirmishers that is a new formation type available on groups that are 5 of more. They pack and stand still, have pike bonus vs cavalry when melee and fire arrows like a turret from range.
I feel I wish you would've tested more the impact of secondary projectiles; compare the effectiveness of something like 20 Wagons vs a big mass of any army, compared to pre-patch
When packed, fairly weak attack but mobile. When unpacked, range units can garrison, add attack/number of projectiles but it can't move. It would be very cool to see it in square formation.
A second unit with a pack/unpack mechanic would be neat, especially if it conferred some advantage, like only blocking ranged fire behind it while unpacked, or only being able to deploy the larger projectile when unpacked.
So to sum it up, hussite wagon is basically when siege tower given the ability to attack but lose the ability to carrying units. A moving tower that weak against onager.
For Hussite wagons, they should make it stronger, add villagers to the animations while they are on the move, and redo it as some kind of a mini-trebouchet, with opening it up if you want to fire with them. :)
All of these stat changes for the end result being practically unchanged just makes me wonder what the devs are trying to do. Edit: it's not like anyone ever uses them anyway.
@@HaloNeInTheDark27 They appear to be doing the opposite of that, and considering how the organ gun turned out, I'm seriously questioning their idea of fun.
It feels like they want to discourage people from using them. Castle drop UU is a common and effective strategy, they don't want both Bohemian and Portuguese to have access to this strat as they are already very good at other things.
@@CrnaStrela When has fast castle into wagons ever been a thing? Upon release, so their speed got nerfed. They still don't fit into the game very well, they've just gone from being OP to UP.
Seems odd that they made it more like the organ gun. Would be cool if they let ranged units garrison inside and fire out or give it extra secondary projectiles.
I might enjoy if it could garision xbows, hand cannons, and halbs as the photo had. They can have one side they can engage from. Then get rid off all the shots. It would be expensive to get all the units inside, though probably well worth when you hit pop cap.
I wish one of these changes would change it's attack orientation to hitting from it's sides than from it's forward point (Makes it easier to orient your other units behind it for its defensive aura). Also if someone wanted to solidify this unit as a pure defensive unit they'd give it the ability to construct palisade walls. Like imagine a combat scenario where you have a few of these units walling off choke points or disrupting enemy movement while also soaking damage. Like put less emphasis on offense for the Wagon and more emphasis on being a damage sponge and a disruptor unit.
I think they could rework it like this: making it do more damage and giving it 5 garrison slots (like rams) and making it shoot the extra projectiles (like towers) only while garrisoned, that would be a really one of a kind unit
I think this is what it needs: - Pack/unpack so its more akin to a mobile strong tower and more bonuses when unpacked - More nerf than this while packed and walking I honestly think that could have be a very interesting unit that way if they change it that way.
I've been wanting to post this on the aoe forums; but my account hasn't been activated. Hussite Wagon (HW) suggestions for additional functionality/changes 1️⃣ A unpack feature to fortify its position. When unpack, the HW stats for melee armor could increase. Since the HW seems to be more of a defensive unit and not used for it's mobility to raid or be micro, why not further build off that defensive idea. It'll be similar to how the stat changes for trebuchet's (un)pack armor. 2️⃣ Adjust the attack range. The unpack feature could also increase the range by +1 to compensate for being stationary and to give it a fighting chance against mangonels. The elite upgrade or seige engineers could offer a +1 to it's unpacked range, maxing out at 8. It'll be out range by Onagers with Siege Engineers; but by that time, you'll have bombard cannons to defend. Throughout the ages, the mangonel-line will still be a counter. 3️⃣ The ability to garrison units Units could seek protection by garrisoning. Since the Bohemians lack mobility, being able to garrison units/villagers could buy you more time for reinforcements to arrive. Possibly another potential effect, garrison Hand cannoneers could affect the HW attack by increasing the number of projectiles or rate of fire. 4️⃣ Wagenburg Tactics could also offer a passive defensive stat bonus to close by units when unpacked The tech would essentially offer support to your Infantry and Hand Cannoneers from mangonel shots. Think of it as a Celtic Stronghold Castle tech, but instead of healing, it's a defensive buff. Healing is already covered by their trash monks. I'm suggesting this because the ability to decrease projectiles by half, is hard to utilize. My original thought process was to make the Hussite Wagon more of a supportive unit (like the Roman's Centurian). It'll cost more, but massing them, isn't a necessity. Due to how mircoing interrupts the unit's firing mechanic, the unpack feature and adjusted range should somewhat solve that issue; essentially acting like a mobile tower. I didn't include too much calculations for the unit stats, because this is just a rough draft.
Hearing all this makes me feel like the Hussite Wagon should be able to garrison ranged units and inherit their attacks, rather than having an attack of their own. This would also open the door for various wagon + occupant combos.
I feel like they make too many changes. It's something that I'm sure ultra competitive players love because it keeps it fresh, but it's too much for new players in my opinion. They should have two different game modes or something where you could enter queue for a game which has small changes monthly and one that has big changed every five years or so.
Not only is this not true and gets shouted down for being an idiot opinion (let the new players speak for themselves) in almost every kind of game space I've ever been in, that's also what the public beta testing branch is for. Opt in if you want.
@@BruceAngus Don't hide behind sarcasm. Actually your problem is wanting a static game that never changes. While there is value in stability, having a game that is alive results in more fun for everyone. This is true about pretty much everything, but you don't like that for whatever reason, so you have to use other people to make a point that isn't true.
I think the changes are odd but the changes make sense to what the wagon does in war itself. Good move overall to make the unit do what it should while not changing its place balance wise
![NOSFERATU - Official Trailer [HD] - Only In Theaters December 25](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nulvWqYUM8k/mqdefault.jpg)
It feels a little odd that they're giving the Hussite Wagon characteristics of the Organ Gun. I feel like it would have been better to further workshop the defensive mechanics more, instead of making the unit feel more generic
Yup, but at least the organ gun makes sense with the many projectiles killing big armies easily
@@RoastCDuckSeptember 1999. I was there when it was released, as I'd been playing the original Age of Empires until then.
What you describe as something to be fixed wouldn't have necessarily been considered a bug, as that was just how the mechanics worked. Still does; units in general do not attack while in motion.
Ya hard agree. I'm NOT excited to see these changes go live. I don't like them.
That'd require effort.
Just turn this unit into garrisonable unit like rams. Each garrisoned archer-line would shoot projectiles that deals for some damage. Each garrisoned militia-line would deal damage per second near the wagon. The garrisoned units keep their damage type (e.g: garrisoned skirmishers would deal bonus damage to archer-line).
Making the unit need to pack and unpack could be so much interesting than this changes
i was thihnking garrisoning archers to increase firepower
@@headecas That's great idea!
@@headecas, or giving building armour that would reduce the damage from cavalry and archers, but be vulnerable to infantry with arson and siege.
And it packs faster when its garrisoned
exactly. this is just another orjan gun. give it a large hp and armor boost when unpacked and make it unable to fire while on the move. a weaker mobile tower would be a fun mechanic
OR give it the ability to garrison units, just like a tower, with range units giving extra projectiles. this would be in line with it's original concept (they made it to tank ranged attacks in front of units but basically no one uses them this way bc it's impossible to micro them properly). this would mean that adding just a few unupgraded wagons can make your archers immune to skirm counters
So they actually managed to make them MORE useless? I mean, I'm not even mad, kind of impressed.
Does make me wonder why they felt this was even necessary.
Very confusing why not just alllow to shoot all projectiles at once. Nefing damage output and hp makes them even less tempting to use as support unit. Devs probably wants to make sure , that nobody will use this unit, which will die even against villagers.
@@valger3652 having thought about it for a moment, it could be that they really want to reinforce its position as a support unit in a ranged exchange. Although if this is the case I don't think its a great idea to do this by making it basically useless in other situations.
I used this civ and unit 2 days ago and they were by far the worst civ I have used in a while. Even while massed they were pretty bad.
I srsly hate how this Is becoming More ando More a shoter game instead of a strategic one
A mobile tower would have been pretty cool. Unpacking into an outpost of archers with fairly high defence but are kinda weak when unpacked.
Reminds me of the Rig/Battle Base in CnC 3. I could see this working.
this is what it should have been. Would be really cool to see.
@@Osteichthyesyeah it couldve worked
This would make a lot more sense
@Devs hire this person
It needs to be like a ram. Garrison hcs in it and be totally impervious to arrows.
It also needs more, not less hp
You should see the version we have in the voobly community patch, then
ooh, I like this. garrisoned units can still attack? would be really cool
yeah, like garrison HC and add projectiles. I think that would be such a fun mechanic. Halbs and HC can add projectiles. Imagine having halbs and being able to jump into the wagons when the champs get on top of you and wreck them with guns 11
@@DraconianEmpath
what does it do?
@@pancrolvoobly1376
@@DraconianEmpath No unit can attack from inside another, the closest thing is towers with archers. But yes, you can put pikemen inside them an ungarrison when cavalry gets closer.
I really like the idea of a wagon unpacking into a sort of "palisade bomb", and not even having the guns
Always nice to see Ornlu and Spirit of the Law independently coming to the same conclusions
Have no ideia who is Ornlu
@@Falcon0BRit's a wolf
@@Yamaneko81Who's pack has been attacking our flocks
@@samrodrigues3199if you kill him we will give you flaming arrows
Ornlu's conclusion was that Hussite wagons still suck but are much better than before. That's completely different from SotL who incorrectly claims they were nerfed.
Pack, unpack with garrisoning would be awesome.
I hate it. But it would be historically accurate, so I'd deal with it :P
And getting building armour to reduce damage from archers and cavalry, but be vulnerable to infantry with arson and siege.
This is completly ridiculous..the unit is so cool and by far the worst unit in the entire game with not a single situation where its worth its cost. There just isnt any use for it, its completly dead, absolutely worthless and absolutely terrible...and they nerf it further. Considering Bohemians are already one of the worst civs to play overall this just makes no sense at all and the balance team has been doing very questionable things lately and not even looking at data for a mere second.
What? They're 2nd on arena and banned regularly in tournaments.
Just buff the wagon, why the devs doing these weird changes?
They wanted to be careful about this unit, Bohemian is already really strong civ in late game without this. So they are trying to make balanced hussite wagon that works properly, though the intended use might not be the same as initial plan.
@@CrnaStrela Odd. Hera just dropped a Civ tier list about 2 days ago and rated Bohemians as fairly lackluster. These "new" War Wagons are going to get even less use then the old ones with how shit they are now.
In summary: they managed to make the worst UU in the game even worse
The Arambai would like to argue with this statement, but it missed. As usual.
@@QaRajhCreationshera wants to have a talk with you
@@QaRajhCreationsijs I personally have seen and had a mass of arambai shred paladins....hussite wagon has zero melee armor 😂
@@QaRajhCreations A groupe of Arambai could act as fast mangonel, groupe of Hussite wagons cant do shit. Arambai arent best but are far from worst in my opinion
Worst UU in the game is war elephant
Honestly, could just turn it into an APC and units can fire out of it like a tower. Could get some really massive output by putting in HCs, but if you lose a wagon those HCs are in a very vulnerable spot. It would be interesting to see this if they could also have the game check what unit types were garrisoned in it. For instance, 2 Arb, 2 Skirm, 1 HC. The wagon would carry them around and it would fire 2 arrows, 2 spears, and 1 shot. It'll give some protection and increase the amount of agency that players have while being fairly authentic to the original concept.
"Battle Fortress ON THE ALERT!"
I like the APC concept where garrisoned units can fire maybe with a reduced movement speed or the mentioned pack/unpack mechanic.
The different projectiles based on garrisoned units is not yet in the game so I think that would be too much
@@llSuperSnivyll
WE WILL CRUSH 'EM!
what does APC stand for?
But I agree making them more into fortifications would make some sense.
I thought of the pack and unpack mechanic sotl mentioned during the video, too.
Maybe making them into somewhat weaker, but movable towers
@@XyntXII (A)rmored (P)ersonnel (C)arrier.
I wanted it to be basically a moving wall that you can pack and unpack. Two wagons less than three tiles apart will build a wall between themselves. You soldiers can pass through the wagon part like gates.
sounds fun, but possibly very hard to balance
@@user-sl6gn1ss8p Not really. Make them super weak to onagers, scorpions and bombard cannons (and towers). Those protective planks on the wagons are only so thick.
Seeing the "pack/unpack" mechanic being used with a different unit would actually be amazing!
I feel like packing / unpacking would be very interesting, but I think we could do something cooler than just a treb-style switch between armed and moving. I wonder if we could treat them something like a pop-up palisade, and when ordering a group of them to unpack, they could be made to form a line, so the player can essentially speed-build a little wall in front of their cannons, trebs, etc. The passive ranged damage reduction to allies behind it would still work, and while they wouldn't be a super durable wall, they could do the job of protecting your cannons from light cavalry just enough to give you an edge.
We could even give them an attack with a really short range, like, a range of 2. Historically the crossbows used in a Hussite Wagon situation wouldn't have a lot of range, as they were mainly used by inexperienced shooters to pelt enemies with imprecise but very spicy fire that can pierce armor at short range. So if melee units choose to punch through the Hussite Wall-gon, they would also take a bit of damage from the shots as they fight to get to the juicy treb behind it. The low range would keep the use of this defensive, and combined with the ability to move them, it makes them the intended "defensive support for offensive operations" unit.
Gameplay-wise, this could be really fun, but also really difficult to implement. The idea of popup palisades or short-range towers definitely sounds like a recipe for shenanigans, but with how much micro this could need if implemented poorly, it could also be completely useless in an actual game.
Also, just style-wise, I think Hussite Wagons look super dorky as they are right now. Because they're treated just like any unit, especially by AI, you just see a swarm of these overgrown carts with no real movement to their unit model wheeling across the grasslands like tanks, and when switching directions they rotate in such an unnatural way, it just looks silly. Like a legion of medieval Daleks. Surely we can come up with something better.
i wonder whether in later patch Frank Castles will be renamed as Punishers ...
I would REALLY love to hear the designers explain the rationale for changes lol
I can guess some of it
Herr durrr🥴 game be better if wagon fast somehowz
The loss of damage is probably it's biggest hit. I really like the Hussite Wagon, but the old wagons are a definitely better. They swapped out the historical stand and fire for game hit and run. I'd much prefer an unpack mechanic like Spirit said at the end, but making Bohemians more mobile with hit and run attacks with both Hussite Wagons and Handcannoners sounds good as well.
I think they're trying to appeal to pros, instead of being interesting and unique, they try to make it fit the pro meta, a simple example is how they turned sicilians and burgundians into more generic civs (thinking of hauberk for sicilian cavaliers)
no one asked for hauberk, everyone wanted sicilians to embrace the seargants. @@08vinster
@08vinster That sounds lame. But I'll still play Bohemians the way I always do, stand and fight with Hussite Wagons as makeshift battle tanks, so this change won't affect my playstyle.
@@08vinster Guess it's time for the community to make its own updates with mods.
They added the +6 to the villagers against wagons because the only time you use the wagons is during a early castle drop. Then theyre the best UU in the game lol
Hussite wagons should have a trebuchet mechanic in where they can dig in, protect 100% of the units behind it and deal more damage.
They should be better against Cavalry but I like the cover mechanics, the devs should make that work
Agreed, I think a lot of people expected the cover area to be fixed/buffed. It really doesn't work as expected.
Think it was bad they buffed the dps vs low armour, instead of the support role.
Maybe the ability to fill the wagon with HC so wagons do extra shots and the HC are protected, just like rams are stronger with infantry in them
Still not good against heavy Calvary. 0/10
I just hate this change. I hope the delay is to make this better. The Hussite should be buffed. Make them awesome.
I wish they would hire you tbh. The idea at the end of being an unpackable unit has some really great potential for a unique unit
I remember a unit (square formation) of hussite wagons, hand canoneers, monks and hufnice. I do not remember the numbers but it was a big unit and it was devastating. :)
What the developers often don't look at are the campaigns. These big changes could severely increase the difficulty of them. Some campaign missions stopped being playable for me in medium or hard. Especially when the scenario mostly used a small number of unique units for the player to fight with. What were reasonable battles turned into hit-and-run and avoidance strategies.
Spirit of the Law Just thought I would like to mention that one of my favorite videos of yours was the one where you analyzed all the wonders of aoe and deduced what buildings they are based on. Seeing an expansion on that video to include news civs would be great!
Hussite wagon is increasingly becoming a similar unit to waragon. They obviously have no inherent use and, above all, they are not funny. I want them to be mobile towers that work with the unpack mechanism.
I think testing the unit damage against actual groups to get a better feel for the impact of the secondary shots would have been worthwhile, given how much of the total potency got shifted into that. I still think this is probably a hit to the unit but it's probably a lot less drastic there. Either way it should be more defensively-oriented just for vibes and distinction from other units.
Sometimes the devs really feel clueless and lost about UU.
Wagons should have a buff aura that adds ranged armor to infantry and archers inside that aoe radius. Just like the energy shield 'aura' in Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds 🌃⭐
Archers and cavalry
I love star wars galactic battlegrounds but id rather not have aura buffs in a medieval game.
@@injest1928Too late we already have several.
Stang, it appears to be the Siege Tower all over again. Will see how this goes with live play on casual and competitive matters though.
2:40 I'm in tears. This reads like a perfect fit for that one meme. "Who would win, an expensive gunpowder unique unit or 2 spanish villagers"
Big changes, or how it should be named "big nerfs"
Honestly don't like this unit as it stands at all. They should do something truly unique with them: make them actually be UNPACKABLE fortifications. So give them the same or better protective functionality and even buff their previous damage, but make it so that they need to UNPACK (very quick pack and unpack animation) like a trebuchet, where they get good defensive boost for allied unit attacked over them. Imagine moving your army forward with a line of these in front, the enemy charges you and you quickly unpack the wagons, making a strong defensive line that needs to be broken or flanked to do normal damage to the rear. Or deploying a line of these in a chokepoint to hold off an attack while the main army retreats. This would be more historically accurate AND make this unit more interesting simultaneously.
It should have a decent primary weapon (one larger higher dmg cannon or fewer hand cannon with higher dmg) and be garrisonable with archers and hand cannoneers and then fire like a castle (when unpacked, if one wants this mechanic).
As a casual (PvE) Bohemia main and gunpowder player this is just a big disappointment, I like to use my wagons as mobile strong points not like gunpowder cavalry.
I appreciate all 5 guns firing now but the damage nerf is just way too much imo and the villagers casually clubbing an elite unit is outright silly.
I think it should have worked similarly to Battle Fortress from Yuri's Revenge, a slow unit with loads of HP but weak attack that can garrison multiple foot soldiers who can keep attacking while protected.
Kinda disappointing that the devs just want to make the Hussite Wagon into an tanky Organ Gun. Some garrison/pack+unpack mechanic would be appreciated to differentiate from the organ gun.
What if there could be garrisoned ranged units inside, just like it is with rams and siege tower?
If it was the wagon tanking all the dmg and the units could have some bonuses to atk or range (e.g. +1 range because all the archers inside the wagon were a bit higher than on the ground lvl)?
hussite wagon and the elephant archers should be like the elephants in lord of the rings with multiple archers ontop, would be so much cooler
If you want it authentic, have it garrisoned by ranged units, protecting them against melee attacks from cavalry. Then it doesn't really need an attack on its own, just allow the units in it to fire. (Might be overpowered this way?)
a pack/unpack maybe could allow for actual buffs to the wagon, perhaps?
The unpack / pack mechanic makes the most sense similar to a treb. I think an additional negating of incoming damage should be considered if you also use the box formation. As for the attack they would need a spirit level formula to do it so that high pierce armor targets get full damage while low armor targets get damage by the number of projectiles that hit them.
if the Hussite Wagon really wants to be buffed, maybe it can be set to "0 range attack by the opponent will receive 2 damage per hit"
think of their use and the opponents like knights and axeman, it is possible to have some spearman inside the wagon
Garrisoned spearmen, there you go!
@@ZlobitkoRostak-hp1en then it will waste too many population to do so
I was quite disappointed you didn't repeat the damage test against groups of units to account for the differences on accuracy. You are generally very thoughtful about that stuff.
Wont change much.
@@LoutreDuBengaleit would change a lot.
"To the scenario editor!"
(insert Adam West Batman scene transition).
Reminds me of how the Beefy Smash Doods do that with their Smash Review videos right before testing character tricks for themselves.
Would have liked to see how they look against a group of high armor infantry, as the secondary projectiles seem a lot better against a clump of units instead of a single one.
I wish they improve Burmese phantos as in the past
I agree that a pack/unpack mechanic would be nice.
It would be interesting if they gained building armour becoming like a palissade with the capacity to attack when unpacked, maybe dealing some extra damage to cavalry.
yeah you can fix the concept with a pack/unpack concept where you can shoot in both case, but unpacked deals more damage and it has the same rule fore being targeted as a building. This way an enemy unit would prioritize whatever you have behind the wagon
I find it interesting that pack/unpack mechanics have always felt extremely weak to me in AoE2. Most of the strongest civs are cav civs, and cav is extremely fast and good at taking advantage of stationary units.
Despite this, starcraft 2 has an extremely powerful unit called the siege tank, which uses pack/unpack mechanics. Starcraft 2 is also a much, much faster game (Average game length is less than 20 minutes, most games go around 10-15). There are also extremely fast units that are clearly faster than what a comparable unit in aoe2 would be like.
All in all, I think if hussite wagons were to have a pack/unpack mechanic, it would have to either be fast and provide a minor bonus, to give a decisive advantage in certain situations but not take too long as to offset the advantage, OR have a long pack time that provides a major bonus. I'm leaning towards the latter, as this would allow a few key positioned packed wagons to provide serious defensive bonuses to open maps, helping them in those cases which not necessarily aiding them in long, drawn-out "mass wagon" strategies.
8:53 The problem with a packing mechanic is that, unlike trebuchets, they don't have the range to justify using it. If anything, their onager weakness just becomes worse without the ability to move.
My take on the unit is that it should have cavalry armor, since its original role was to stop knights from charging into civilian fighters. Or maybe we can take a page on the centurion and make it apply an aura, but instead of a buff we can have a debuff to either cavalry movement speed or attack speed. Of course, the cost of the unit should be adjusted accordingly, and you're still vulnerable to onagers, infantry and villagers, but it would make its role much more defined and impactful
Dear Spirit of the law, could you please make a top 10 civs for 1v1 random land map, standard rules, on Rise of nations extended edition (very similar to AoE2DE)? I know you like Japanese, and they are good there! I like your sweet voice and deep knowledge.
I don't understand why the devs nerf unique units to the ground for no reason. First the arambai (which was kinda broken when it was first introduced , but now they're a meme. They were overnerfed).Then Organ guns were nerfed, and are trash now since they cant kill mangonels or knights in castle age (their most common answers.. who the f*** cares if they kill unarmored units faster, they already did that before??). Now they manage to make an already fringe unit, the hussite wagon, even worse. Seriously why?
I never used this unit, but now, i will never use for sure.
I agree give it pack/ unpack mechanic or a garrison feature like the solider's jumping behind the walls etc
The hussite wagon was fine before. Now it's useless. There was no reason to play Bohemians before, now there's even less!
Forgotten Empires can screw off. I'm getting sick of their visions.
This update reminds me of the Mayan Hul'che Javelineers tech... The additional attack of 1 damage that ends up doubling the initial attack you'd expect to be reduced to one damage. This update just adds attacks that one would expect to be reduced to 1 damage each--- additional skirm level attacks without bonus damage. Having additional 1 damage attacks or attacks that'll be reduced to 1 in 'most' situations are effectively the same.
Just as the graphs in the video show: it can only be an advantage in cases where the wagons are used early, or vs enemies that are lagging behind in armour upgrades for their trash units.
So, the unit that historically win against knights, have zero melee armor and now become even worst? Seriously, rather have them act like trebuchets and have melee armor when standing still.
Hussite waaaaaagons wooo!
The proper role of the wagons should have been as mobile palisades that you can unpack similar to trebs to make ostensibly open maps more closed and support bohemian bonuses to ranged units. Give them high pierce and melee armour to physically block enemy melee units when used in a square formation, keeping the bonus damage weaknesses the unit has or tweaking a little to ensure there's at least a few other counters than just mangonels as was the case on initial release.
I would make them more similar to rams that could shoot. Like you would be able to garrison pike inside it and it would have some melee damage. Or maybe have it be able to train pikes from it
I feel like they've decided that people would micro it anyway so they reworked it as a way to battle masses of trash, concentrating on area soft attack.
just seeing hussite wagons in a boxed formation and realizing that they were basically made for each other
To me the use of hussite wagon mainly been vs low pierce armor unit like archer or running under tc to raid. I think this kinda makes it better for that. Ofcourse the unit still basically sucks and I would just make a few to annoy and distrub rather than use it as my main force. I think these changes won't change much.
How can you raid under the TCs if the vills can take you down so easily?
@@ZlobitkoRostak-hp1en you won't be sending 1 wagon vs 30 vills. 4 wagons oneshot vills with every volley and attack them from distance.
I liked the old slow fire better, felt more unique. I feel like a better solution might have been to fix the reload so when you told it to move it would reload (with reload time not just instant) the main projectile once more and restart the fire sequence from the beginning.
Okay, I loved your idea of packing and unpacking.
Thought of it not exactly a unit but a technology that affects infantry and archers+skirmishers that is a new formation type available on groups that are 5 of more.
They pack and stand still, have pike bonus vs cavalry when melee and fire arrows like a turret from range.
Hope the better micro usability leads to seeing them more in high Level play
So it's worse now? Good job guys.
The pack and unpack ability sounds great, more like portable walls. Making you choose what is good at the moment like the Rathas
What about massed battles? Does the extra projectiles help at all in that sense?
If they had an unpack, that did more damage and then packed they can still shoot but do less damage (as you suggested at the end) would be awesome
The hussite Wagon should be able to transform like Trebuchets do and become a Siege Wall where you can garrison canoneers.
I feel I wish you would've tested more the impact of secondary projectiles; compare the effectiveness of something like 20 Wagons vs a big mass of any army, compared to pre-patch
When packed, fairly weak attack but mobile. When unpacked, range units can garrison, add attack/number of projectiles but it can't move.
It would be very cool to see it in square formation.
A second unit with a pack/unpack mechanic would be neat, especially if it conferred some advantage, like only blocking ranged fire behind it while unpacked, or only being able to deploy the larger projectile when unpacked.
would like to have seen an analysis of how both versions do against large groups of units.
So to sum it up, hussite wagon is basically when siege tower given the ability to attack but lose the ability to carrying units.
A moving tower that weak against onager.
For Hussite wagons, they should make it stronger, add villagers to the animations while they are on the move, and redo it as some kind of a mini-trebouchet, with opening it up if you want to fire with them. :)
All of these stat changes for the end result being practically unchanged just makes me wonder what the devs are trying to do.
Edit: it's not like anyone ever uses them anyway.
Maybe if they made the unit decent, people would use it.
@@HaloNeInTheDark27 They appear to be doing the opposite of that, and considering how the organ gun turned out, I'm seriously questioning their idea of fun.
It feels like they want to discourage people from using them. Castle drop UU is a common and effective strategy, they don't want both Bohemian and Portuguese to have access to this strat as they are already very good at other things.
@@CrnaStrela When has fast castle into wagons ever been a thing? Upon release, so their speed got nerfed. They still don't fit into the game very well, they've just gone from being OP to UP.
Seems odd that they made it more like the organ gun. Would be cool if they let ranged units garrison inside and fire out or give it extra secondary projectiles.
Stupid change is stupid
Look what they did to my boy 😭 already the worst UU made worse
I might enjoy if it could garision xbows, hand cannons, and halbs as the photo had. They can have one side they can engage from. Then get rid off all the shots. It would be expensive to get all the units inside, though probably well worth when you hit pop cap.
Just turn it into Red Alert 2 YR's Battle Fortress :P
I wish one of these changes would change it's attack orientation to hitting from it's sides than from it's forward point (Makes it easier to orient your other units behind it for its defensive aura). Also if someone wanted to solidify this unit as a pure defensive unit they'd give it the ability to construct palisade walls. Like imagine a combat scenario where you have a few of these units walling off choke points or disrupting enemy movement while also soaking damage. Like put less emphasis on offense for the Wagon and more emphasis on being a damage sponge and a disruptor unit.
the hussite wagon is so bad i almost gave you a dislike hahaha
Im surprised you didnt test the unit against a massed up army
I am first!!! (It's 2023 I can do this even if I'm not) 11
They should make it so it fires the extra projectiles when a unit is garrisoned into it and make the units heal at the same rate as a castle.
They should have additional armor and improved rate of fire when stationary after two seconds alongside a slight bonus against cavalry.
I would love to see pack-unpack for these. Imagine guys in the wagon pulling the rooftops up and guns sliding out of the holes
I think they could rework it like this: making it do more damage and giving it 5 garrison slots (like rams) and making it shoot the extra projectiles (like towers) only while garrisoned, that would be a really one of a kind unit
I think this is what it needs:
- Pack/unpack so its more akin to a mobile strong tower and more bonuses when unpacked
- More nerf than this while packed and walking
I honestly think that could have be a very interesting unit that way if they change it that way.
I've been wanting to post this on the aoe forums; but my account hasn't been activated.
Hussite Wagon (HW) suggestions for additional functionality/changes
1️⃣ A unpack feature to fortify its position.
When unpack, the HW stats for melee armor could increase. Since the HW seems to be more of a defensive unit and not used for it's mobility to raid or be micro, why not further build off that defensive idea. It'll be similar to how the stat changes for trebuchet's (un)pack armor.
2️⃣ Adjust the attack range.
The unpack feature could also increase the range by +1 to compensate for being stationary and to give it a fighting chance against mangonels. The elite upgrade or seige engineers could offer a +1 to it's unpacked range, maxing out at 8. It'll be out range by Onagers with Siege Engineers; but by that time, you'll have bombard cannons to defend. Throughout the ages, the mangonel-line will still be a counter.
3️⃣ The ability to garrison units
Units could seek protection by garrisoning. Since the Bohemians lack mobility, being able to garrison units/villagers could buy you more time for reinforcements to arrive. Possibly another potential effect, garrison Hand cannoneers could affect the HW attack by increasing the number of projectiles or rate of fire.
4️⃣ Wagenburg Tactics could also offer a passive defensive stat bonus to close by units when unpacked
The tech would essentially offer support to your Infantry and Hand Cannoneers from mangonel shots. Think of it as a Celtic Stronghold Castle tech, but instead of healing, it's a defensive buff. Healing is already covered by their trash monks. I'm suggesting this because the ability to decrease projectiles by half, is hard to utilize.
My original thought process was to make the Hussite Wagon more of a supportive unit (like the Roman's Centurian). It'll cost more, but massing them, isn't a necessity. Due to how mircoing interrupts the unit's firing mechanic, the unpack feature and adjusted range should somewhat solve that issue; essentially acting like a mobile tower. I didn't include too much calculations for the unit stats, because this is just a rough draft.
Hearing all this makes me feel like the Hussite Wagon should be able to garrison ranged units and inherit their attacks, rather than having an attack of their own. This would also open the door for various wagon + occupant combos.
they nerfed it when the unit actually needed a buff
I feel like they make too many changes. It's something that I'm sure ultra competitive players love because it keeps it fresh, but it's too much for new players in my opinion. They should have two different game modes or something where you could enter queue for a game which has small changes monthly and one that has big changed every five years or so.
Not only is this not true and gets shouted down for being an idiot opinion (let the new players speak for themselves) in almost every kind of game space I've ever been in, that's also what the public beta testing branch is for. Opt in if you want.
@@misteral9045 dang, you are of course right. I should have consulted you before I posted.
@@BruceAngus Don't hide behind sarcasm. Actually your problem is wanting a static game that never changes. While there is value in stability, having a game that is alive results in more fun for everyone. This is true about pretty much everything, but you don't like that for whatever reason, so you have to use other people to make a point that isn't true.
@@misteral9045 I blew it again. Can you write my response for me and send it to me?
I think the changes are odd but the changes make sense to what the wagon does in war itself. Good move overall to make the unit do what it should while not changing its place balance wise
You know, it would be cool that we could garrison up to 5 units and every unit add an extra shot to the wagon