You Can Push Cart even if Blocked??
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2023
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big thanks to:
trigger_hurt & sunflower for their contributions in research
FAQ:
Q: How did you make that? What editing software do you use?
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Игры
Never thought tickling the cart would be a viable strategy for dire situations
He said in the video that the whole thing is basically meaningless
Sometimes you just need to tickle it a little when it's about to blow.
Only if your enemy doesn't have a gun.
@@hamaczech13fax
@@hamaczech13ambatublow
"You push cart
If red guy - no push"
I like how cavemen language is always so understandable and relatable
that's literally how code is written, except with less punctuation
@@legathar8558 im glad it works tho
@@legathar8558
wow it really is just baby talking to the computer so it understands what you're saying huh
@@neevko267 Exactly. People think computers are smart, but they're actually very, very dumb, and need highly specific instructions.
@@quickdraw6893 wrong. They were. All hail our new silicon ovelords
I wouldn't mind if this bug stayed in the game as it enables some of the most glorious pub pushes I've ever seen in this game
1 hammer unit per touch in negligible
@@kezifwell like for example,the cart is about to fall down a pit on any map,but is being currently blocked by red.
it may be possible to make it move just enough for blu team to win
It doesnt enable anything but annoyance. It has no reason to stay.
@@schniemand this maybe wins 1 out of 1000 games, other than that it does basically nothing . i would rather they squash big bugs that are major issues over something so small that you wouldnt notice it unless you where really looking for it
While yes, it is "glorious" - this is certainly unfair due to the fact that blu has shorter respawn time and probably has tele nearby to abuse this with something like spy.
I appreciate that you covered the purpose of this interaction
and don't just go "odd interaction = bad/unintentional"
Just because it’s unintentional doesnt mean its bad
Shounic's visuals for explaining complex code and interactions remains absolutely fascinating. I so think this sort of stuff should be used in classes to show how in any meeting/class/presentation just how powerful a well communicated idea is. It's crisp as fuck.
It's not just what you communicate, it's how you communicate it. This is why graphic design is a profession.
Goddamn you are extremely good at explaining things. I never noticed, but I always seemed to remember your videos no matter the subject. I do believe that you have a useful talent, good sir.
He sure does!
Same
@@ReyHunter
MY GOD, MAN!
HOW DID YOU FIND ME?
WHY ARE YOU TRACKING MEEEEEEEEEEE
@@Morar_Bro schizoprehnia
@@ungezoockt Nonononono
You see, he is stalking me.
My every move is tracked.
And he won't let me out of his basement.
I remember a game where 3 reds were on the cart at the very edge, but an uncloaking spy still pushed it to end the game, which shocked us all!
I've always thought this was intentional, and appreciated being able to pull off wins when the cart was within a couple inches from capture.
Hell. Tapping the cart only moves it by 0.6 inches, since 1 hammer unit = 0.75 inches.
@@lorenzpacis3249 Just so you know, that scale technically only applies to Half-Life 2. TF2 is modeled about 1.2-1.5 times larger, though the exact dimensions are too inconsistent to be sure of.
I like how this could be interpreted as someone slamming themselves so hard into the cart, that despite the other team blocking it, it still manages to move an inch.
If this is a bug it is a welcomed one, because bomb rushing the cart so it doesn't roll back if blocked or not is strategically valuable.
Strategically viable or OP for blu? Is the rollback a core feature that balances the game mode? I honestly don't know, just playing Devil's Advocate. I lean towards it being a good thing because red already has a huge advantage by spawning right in front of their last point and can stack the point way easier than blu can.
@@herb_2red also has a longer respawn timer so they don’t have that much of an advantage
@@jerry3306 Not forget if BLU had good Engi, they are as fast at last as RED when they spawn
@@Jasiuc330 Which can be taken out by a spy pretty easy
@@MaximusChivus Spy can't do anything.
It also serves to reset the rollback countdown when the cart is in a heavily-defended choke point, so the programmer doesn't also have to think of some way to reset that countdown when the cart is constantly being blocked.
I'm always excited to see what gaben sound clips shounic puts together at the end of his videos, its always a pleasant surprise
i like how high-speed cart acts like an anxious hamster
Man, if I had nickel for every time shounic said "Can this be fixed? Yes, easily."
Once again, I love how direct your content is. So refreshing to see someone get straight into the subject matter without an unnecessary intro and 2 minutes of pointless preamble! And it's great content :)
Granted, I find some of the coding parts a bit difficult to follow but it's very well made so I think that's just my problem lol
yer a cool fella
I almost want to see a bot programmed to frame perectly step in and out of the cart push zone just to see how long it would take to push it one tick at a time.
I feel like at this point he should probably submit bug fixes on the workshop since these bug are so niche for Valve to notice and fix themselves
I feel like they know about this one because it's useful to still give the player drive
he needs to be hired by valve
The workshop is for sharing assets, not code patches
@@waldolemmer The TF2 workshop has a "community fixes" section. While most of them ARE asset fixes (like clipping or incorrect materials), not all of them are.
So valve can ignore it like they did with the "update sized update"?
"Can this be fixed?
Yes. Easily" should be the motto of these videos
This accidental mechanic has saved many tough games I've played. It sounds unbelievable but true.
You can also get the cart stuck on Hightower elevator abusing this.
You could have also mentioned that control points work the same way. They have exactly the same behavior. If a player from one team defends a point and another player from the other team comes in who can take it over, there will be a slight progression of the takeover.
I actually feel like this is a good feature. It makes people want to always do the objective.
But only in little tiny mini-sized bursts - where everyone on the blue team synchs perfectly to bop on-and-off at high pace, without accidentally interfering with each other.
Finally somebody talking about this, no one seems to realize that you can uncloak as spy right next to the cart and start pushing it immediately, which means that on some maps BLU is guaranteed to win
"There are 2 hard things in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors."
I actually used this to win once
I have 100% seen badwater games end even when the kart is swarmed with red players. I've always assumed that somehow all the red players had left the area for a split second but now I'm not so sure
But it's an interesting mechanic to visualize. The entire enemy team holding off the cart just for a single scout to launch himself towards the cart and pushing it into the pit.
There are so many times I've said "how the fuck did they cap I was standing right on the cart". Now I know why.
This is the only thing I've ever already known before watching the shounic video, but I learned about the code, so that's cool. Keep up the great work shounic.
You know what, controversial opinion maybe, but I *like* this mechanic. It means that if your team is desperately trying to push a cart teetering on the brink of capture, your team can just throw every available body at it no matter how quickly they die, and still have a chance. Great way to counter a RED team that just turtles with half a dozen sentries.
the cart only moves about the irl equivalent of a millimeter, so it would take maybe 100 people all running at the cart over and over for it to go somewhere
I've won a few games by just playing Spy and existing on the cart.
In the demonstration of the cart nudge, it would've taken about 10-20 players each doing a solo kamikaze mission touching the cart multiple times over 30-60 seconds.
@@AveryChow Actually, a hammer unit = 0.75 in or 19.05 mm. Touching a cart to move it 0.6 in or 15.24 mm isn't impossible for a desperate measure.
@@AveryChow All depends on how close it is. I've definitely won games by just running at the cart and getting it those last few millimeters in. Sometimes a millimeter is all it takes.
Plus, as long as you keep touching it, you prevent it from rolling backwards.
your gaben outros are an amazing blend of funny and crazy to me that you always know exactly how to make him say something relevant
It's funny how most bugs in the game come from the code check order letting stuff through, though I can't blame them since it is stuff you would normally sort of overlook while coding.
"good enough" should be the slogan for valve programmers, it's brilliantly effective.
Finally, a perfectly justified game quirk! Kudos to the valve devs who came up with this solution.
the 1 dislike is from that red scout at the start
New video from Shounic, let's gooooooo!
i really like how this guys content is straight to the point
For comp it is quite often impactful for certain maps such as spy-capping swiftwater last or upward 2nd and 3rd.
I KNEW IT I knew the cart moved even if you are blocking it as Red but I never realized the cart worked like this!
So a full team of sticky jumper demos could just have a constant line of sacrifices to carry a cart through the whole map while maintaining overtime?
Valve needs to skip the middleman and just hire Shounic already
"Can this be fixed?"
"Yes, easily"
TF2 in a nutshell.
to be fair, this one seems to be intentional
"The cart is simple. You ride cart. Life good."
I experienced this many time during badwater overtime , and now i know why it works this way , thanks !
That thumbnail gave me a idea
What if enemy players can push the cart BACK? Like how blu can push the cart forward
"If you were the Valve programmer" > shoots cart into the rockside
I didn’t think that high velocity cart clip would’ve gotten a chuckle outta me like that
I've seen enough videos to have guessed that the cart moves a touch because the code to move it happens before the code to stop it, but seeing the exact way it happens with shounic's explanation is still interesting
This explains the times where I’ve been touching cart and it gets capped anyway
Nice to see the return of Darth Pyro
I've actually witnessed an Upward match end like this before somewhere around 2012. Taught me this existed in the first place lol
I feel like this originates from removing a check of conditions since the next and primary function checks the same conditions. It's likely an out of order error brought about by saving processing. Yet like you said, as it allows stopping the cart rolling back, it was just kept as is.
So that's what pain train is used for.
I actually found this out when watching Super Pro Spy cause of the scene where he's blocking the cart in the box taunt. The footage is sped up and you can see Blu players touch the cart a bunch and it slowly moving forward
I wonder if you could fix it by delaying cart movement by a single tick but increasing the carts acceleration so it will still move by the same ammount.
Though it'd still reset the timer of when the cart will move backwards
Everybody talking about the janitor probably watching shounics videos, but what if shounic is the janitor?
Thanks Valve, very cool.
i've always used it to stop the cart from rolling backwards. But, obviously, i never noticed the
Eeeh, seeing the Payload cart roar forward too fast and start nibbling the wall always cracks me up.
Sometimes, saying "yeah, it's good enough" is the difference between a game or feature that ships, and one that remains indev indefinitely
Hopefully everyone forgets this during October, when I get up to my shenanigans
in the thumbnail, one must imagine Scout happy.
this is a certified Bread Space moment
The thumbnail is perfect
Payload sniffing its way to find the end
This explains so much
one must imagine scout happy
I would bet that the band-aid solution also breaks achievement/contract tracking for obstructed payloads / defenses. The conditions for those contracts and effects seem spotty enough as-is.
heavy pooosh cart
The Holy Cart Science trilogy is complete
this is also how 100 player ctf is played
I was thinking this is probably vital for stoping a cart rolling back or resetting the overtime timer
I won a game because of this, so I would say it's significant
i was aware about this and was used to barely edge a few caps in the game
It's also a way to reset the rollback/overtime timer of the cart when it has enemies on it.
"I just forced the cart move forward even the red team couldn't stop it."
this happened to me on badwater 2nd point. i was STANDING ON THE CART, and they ticked it twice which was just enough to capture it. The killfeed didn't show who captured it, only that I defended twice in a row. I was a lil salty about it haha
Huh. Valve may have actually *intended* to make spaghetti this time.
i swear resetting go-back-timer for bomb is one-line solution and requires like 5 seconds to accomplish
Oh that explains how I lost on a map even though we were sitting on the cart.
Push cart should replace "Push the cart!"
"Can this be fixed? Yes, easily."
Yeah that's about right for TF2
I figured this out on red the hard way on brimstone, I was jump revving into the cart ok the last seconds and tried to stop it end of the line style, however even though it counted as a defense it rolled in anyway and I lost I was so salty lol
I always noticed the small arrow appearing a moment, but didnt noticed that it does move
So if RED has a perfect defense, BLU can counter by sending one person at a time to kamikaze onto the cart. 12 players * 0.8 hammer units = 9.6 hammer units. Thats pretty significant! Obviously, killing the players before they can touch the cart is a thing. But theoretically this is a major discovery!
Milimeter by milimeter, it shall be captured.
Can you force push cart really fast if you are on the edge of the payload cart box, move forward, and script mouse movement such that player enters and leaves cart trigger box every other frame? (i.e. in the box every even frame, outside every other frame)
I like it as a feature.
Someday I'd like to see you do CS bugs. That'd be cool.
It technically makes sense for it to slightly move before stopping as blu tries to push, makes a tiny movement before red holds fast against it, therefore by constantly slamming against it, the defense would kinda fail eventually
I used this trick to win a game earlier, felt good
one much imagine heavy happy
man valve needs to hire you
Actually don't
They're gonna put him on another project he knows nothing about
oh that explains a game i had last night
I've known about this and it has helped me win like 1/1000 payload games
Funny enough this happened to me yesterday. I was contesting a point just as a medic came out of über and it was enough to push the cart onto the point
I've used this behaviour on wutville to get the cart unstuck, when the enemy team would block pushing the cart from under the map.
I actually like the one tick of movement in overtime scenarios. I wouldn't want it to be fixed
how many touches would it take to go up the final points ramp on upward tho
yeah iv had games where im definetly on cart but blu still is somehow able to cap last for some reason and I get very confused
I played sandman scout for a long enough time to learn niche strategies like this, just to be of some use to my team