I've been getting more burnt out with Overwatch lately than I have at any point in the game's past, this video covers one of the major reasons why. Are you guys still enjoying the game? Am I crazy and is everyone having a blast holding M1 all game as Mauga? Let me know what you think!
I really love the shooting part of the game which is the reason I still play the game, I definitely would have uninstalled long ago if we went into ow2 with goats or double shield still being meta. It's definitely a support meta right now which just feels horrible since supports just decide if you win or lose especially with the half devil in the corner kiriko.
Overwatch feels great when you have 2 teams who aren’t wanting to play hard meta, but that ain’t happening even in most of my QP games where the enemy tank locks in Maui and because I didn’t buy the pass I have to sit there and try my butt off for anything when he holds W right and left mouse buttons and does more than me
The line at the end where you said “No wonder Tank feels awful, there’s so much damage coming at you, and it’s not worth anyone else taking the risk of stepping up” perfectly put this whole concept into words in such a concise way, and it’s condensed a feeling that I’ve had with the game for a long time. A lot of things in the game right now just “aren’t worth” in comparison to these much safer options, and it makes things feel unfun, as the amount of value you can get from brain dead picks (Bastion etc) is almost as high as incredibly skilful picks, but requiring about 1% of the effort to play
I think Flats said it best, damage and healing numbers are way too high for the amount of hp is given nowadays. Everything is over-tuned and unbalanced. These devs don’t even try to fix issues or glitches, they introduce different mechanics and compensations as an excuse.
@@zenues EXACTLYYY!!!! 6v6 is literally the only solution! like everyone with a brain has been saying all along! You can actually play the game and DO THINGS when its 6v6! its amazing! You dont have to counter swap 24/7 especially if your on a map with alot of high ground and your playing hog or zarya or rein for example! Because you have another tank to cover that weakness for you! you can design heros around niches because they have another hero to cover their weaknesses for them! amazing right? almost like thats why they designed the game like that in the first place! You can take risk in 6v6, even if the balance is horrible! but in 5v5 the game feels like double shield ON STEROIDS if the game is even SLIGHTLY unbalanced. THis is blizzard we will NEVER have a balanced game! So please! bring back 6v6! To make 5v5 good, is something blizzard cannot do, maybe its possible but BLIZZARD WILL NOT do it!!!!!
I'm in their backline having to spend a lot of effort getting very little done at times, tbh. One kiri spam shot sends me back to a health pack as Tracer. Half a second of auto-aim heals stops me killing stuff as Ball, and even if I do make a big play, there's always TP/Suzu/Pull/Lamp/Rez etc. It's all out of whack because some of the easiest & least committal heroes have a similar or even a larger impact.
I think the largest reason tanks have to have the "sit back and shoot" playstyle is because the second they play aggressive they get antied and explode. I'm a gm4 tank and I literally don't even consider doing anything until that cooldown is out.
Even down here in master 2 if they have ana, I ain't going until I hear that sleep and anti gone, and try to do everything to bait it out. That's why I loved to play so much doom, before his punch nerf, is that he was arguably one of the best to bait those CDs out, he still is but it's just harder to capitalize on that with his shorter stuns
I think that’s simply a 5v5 problem. As strong as anti nade was in ow1, if a tank got naded it wasn’t a big deal since your other tank can cover for you. Nade was a very skillful ability since it was far more effective against squishies (still is, but nading tank is a bigger play in 5v5 than 6v6.) this goes for most if not all abilities that screw over the tank role.
@@davidhume2011 Except nade was on a far lower CD, lasted longer, damage was even higher than the colossal number we currently have, a second tank was there to CC or flank an anti'd target or enable a DPS flank, and it was easier to pressure Supports and force out their cooldowns. Ana was the #3 Support for the last two years of OW1 because, while she didn't have the survivability of Bap or Brig, she had two abilities that each led to someone getting deleted a fair bit of the time. Part of what made Bap hard meta for so many seasons, across so many balance patches, was that he was the only consistent answer to anti from the Support lineup.
This is so accurate, it kinda comes down to "why would I do this, when I can just do that with the same effectiveness and half the effort" for ex, why play tracer and sweat ur ass off to get 1 shot by half the cast, when u can just play sojourn and do the oneshotting...
@@vivelespatat2670 technically her rail only does 195 damage on headshot nowadays but one primary fire bullet is not a hard thing to land. And her slide cd is still very short and launches her miles away yeah.
I totally agree with you, I think OW2 should incentivise players to actually engage in gameplay with high calculated risk, high reward situations more often to actually make players feel like they can express their skill beyond just shooting from far away
@@linusgustafsson2629 The point is to create those "rare high moments" as Robin Walker once said, where one player goes on a tear and plows through the enemy. You have to balance the risk with the reward. OW2 fails by giving too weak of a reward so the safe (and therefore boring) options are better.
The thing is Mauga is almost unkill able (unless they have no idea how his kit works) everytime I get in a game I just see a mercy pocketing him and than we finally kill him and he’s back alive. It doesn’t help if your team isn’t working as a group. Honestly I wish they lowered his health or made his abilities more punishable like mercy’s Rez and Baptiste, no death ability, where you have to be more conscious of when and where you can use it.
Newer heroes seem to be designed in a way where their weaknesses are seemingly obscure. What’s baptiste’s weakness? His long cooldowns! But, he has vertical mobility, insane damage and healing output on top of being able to use those cooldowns for himself. He doesn’t need those cooldowns to actually be able to live because his standard weapon is overtuned. Kiriko has two super strong cooldowns as well, and when consumed can leave her vulnerable. But what prevents her from dying so much? Obviously Suzu, but she also has vertical mobility excluding tp, high damage and a stupid skrunkly hitbox! Im not gonna say immortality isn’t an issue, but what im gonna say is their standard weapons and passives are tuned to the level of their cooldowns where they can survive just as fine as if they needed to make a choice to live
While I do agree with you, most supports inability to provide CC limits their strength against dive dps/tanks a lot. Supports have always been the primary focus of the enemy since OW1, and I think a fair gameplay mechanic is that flank/dive dps should be forcing supports to make a choice on using their utility on the 1v1 fight or for the team. I think ana has always been a good example of this, with strong personal defensive tools that can also be used offensively when not under pressure. I agree with the video that flank/dive dps should be in a stronger state to better challenge supports and that long range low risk dps should be weaker to incentivize risk. Widow and ashe are fine, but hanzo atleast at low/mid rankings and in more casual qp (which yes, i get the game is balanced for high level play but a lot of the fanbase just plays casually, myself included after hitting diamond when I actually grinded this game) is the embodiment of this long ranged low risk playstyle. A character that can one shot you off spam from half the map away, and is good at all ranges is BS. A good support should have the tools and ability to hold their own against divers if they have the skill to win the fight, which should be what overwatch is all about, skill expression. If they didn't, then there'd be no real reason to que support as every game you would be getting farmed by everything and have little impact.
The game was designed to be played 6v6. Trough out the years the game was balanced based on playing 6v6. They changed few legends made it a 5v5 game and demolished years of twitching and tweaking. If ow 1 was still alive no one would be playing ow2 ,that's why the shut the game down so they won't be forced to reflect on their mistake
it's far less tin foil hat territory than you're making it to be. OW1 doesn't exist anymore because it's stupid to keep two (2?) live service games that share the same playerbase online at the same time. it isn't cost effective.
The game was designed to be an open queue, no limits dogpile. Quit coping that 5v5 is some irrational change when 6v6 was fucking dogshit for everybody below mid-Masters.
@@dashieldmasta177hes right. OW was a happier place with 6v6. I bet everyone enjoyed OW1 more than 2 just because of that aspect. I feel like the problem with OW1 is that the developers dont know how to balance the game and would give characters unnecessary balance changes no one asked for
@@dashieldmasta177 Only reason 6v6 was bad is because they didn't bother to put any resources into balancing the game. It took a "brand new" game just for rein to be able to cancel charge, ofc people will get sick of playing tanks and ofc the numbers will dwindle. But instead of balancing the role they cut it in half to decrease queue times with 5v5 and made balancing an even bigger nightmare just for no one to feel satisfied playing tank anyway.
I think 6v6 would solve a few of the issues listed. A second tank to take the pressure off the main one, who can then be the one to go offensive while the main tank holds the line, that would allow for a good mix of play styles
Yeah I feel like they have just been wasting time and effort trying to make 5v5 work but it just… doesn’t. They will probably never go back on that though because it’s the only remaining selling point to why OW2 even exists now that they killed PVE.
this is why i loved 6v6 as tank. i can either defend or attack depending on what the other tank is doing. made the gameplay way more fun for everybody in a match, at least in my matches. being risky as a tank is impossible in ow2.
Not arguing with you but I do want to say Mauga is still a horrible hero design even in 6v6. Like shooting shooting shooting and even more shooting to gain health? That’s boring and bland and I would hope we get more intricate designs like Ball
@@damianvaldez9390agreed. Mauga’s kit is so 1 dimensional just spray and charge and you’ll most likely never die. I would’ve loved for him to have a flame thrower as the second gun
I think doomfist is the perfect example for this. Im maining him and if you want to be really good with doom, you have to only play him. But it feels like i get mid value with 500 hours on him, tracking cooldowns etc while a 10 hours sigma can do the same/more
I main ball... I want to die most of the time, but it's so addicting when you get a team that are able to focus with their tank, taking time to settup before destroying the backline/isolated targets. I think Ball and Doom share the trait that they are both so unique and take so long to master as every decision can be difference between winning the team fight or leaving your teammates without a tank unlike Orisa and Mauga for example who can make tons of bad plays and get away without it
I main doom and he is best suited for push and escort maps being the attacker. He can fly over buildings straight for objectives immediately making enemies turn around and for your team to push, so you can retreat to your team.
@jestnutz I have 2700 hours on doom currently, a lot of those from ow1, in ow2 there is actually no point in playing doom when you can play monkey or dva for dive with a lot more survivability...i love doom, i still main him, but man...but to be fair that is half the tank roster currently, why play rein when you can play ram? Rein can only rush and brawl...whereas ram is a poke character/rush/brawl...
I think it's very problematic that Blizzard is afraid of nerfing anything for some reason, and instead focuses on crazy buffs (like what happened with Mauga). We're in this perpetual cycle of powercreep; Blizzard buffing damage instead of nerfing the overtuned defensive abilities. I think damage across the board need to come down massively, especially with supports. The amount of one-shots and high-damage abilities is way too many. Then Blizzard can focus on reducing the power on the insane defensive abilities like Suzu and Lamp, which are sadly mandatory if you don't want to get instantly melted right now.
Agreed, I don't want to imagine playing support rn if they nerfed defensive utility without addressing the damage in the game. Frankly I don't think i'd come back to overwatch again, i mostly enjoy support and without utility or the ability to attempt to duel close range dps there'd be no point to queing support. It already feels like you just get farmed if you misuse your utility, even in qp. I'm all for dive being stronger if they nerf characters like hanzo, sig, orisa. I'd prefer the stress of fighting off tracers and genji's to getting 1 tapped walking around a corner, or sig rocked+auto attack one shot while attempting to push up. At least losing to dive feels like you can outplay it if you improve yourself, where one shots (besides widow, I could respect widow as the single one shot character) or aoe damage from the other side of the fight doesn't.
Other way around, IMO. Reduce defensive utility, THEN adjust damage accordingly. If you reduce damage first, then for 1 season you will have games where LITERALLY no one can die. The problem is, like he said, an issue with defensive utility being way too strong on heroes that can already do so much. I do agree on the "especially supports part" though. RN most Supports have the defensive utility and damage output to reliably duel most of the cast. I can play Sombra, Hack, Virus, and gun down a Kiriko, and she can GAIN HP from using Suzu before either teleporting away or just 2 tapping me in a fraction of the time it takes me to cast abilities. Supports whined about "playing Dead by Daylight" when they were being hunted extremely easily by DPS and Tanks early on, and Blizz has since decided that Support players MUST be transformed into unkillable gods of destruction in order to have fun.
Mauga hitting ranked was the nail in the coffin for me. I couldn’t believe that in this state in the game they made ANOTHER (Hog and Orisa) shieldless huge blob with low mobility. And they gave him tank killing damage😬
Yep, Rein charge is cancelled by Orissa spear or can be pushed around using brig whip shot or cancelled by Sombra or the enemy is pulled by lifeweaver or made invincible by kiriko But mauga is unaffected by nearly all of those
I remember back in the original, there was a listing of the healers and how they survive. Mercy can fly away. Lucio can boop and wall run. Anna can sleep. Zenyatta kills or is killed.
I feel like the more passive supports do have a place in the game for people who prefer that gameplan but their preformance should be bottlenecked in exchange for their reliability. Like supports who take more risks should be rewarded greater in relation to the risk and the more passive supports should have a lesser potency in exchange for their consistency
@@arthuruiugamesbr9777 I've actually seen some people talk about giving Mercy a revamped version of LW's old passive, where she could place down a small health pack to give her DPS a manual fallback option.
I feel like mercy rez and her movement need to die. The movement makes her too reliable, and she always gets the rez off (mostly because she builds ult instantly) How about giver her an ability like renata from League of legends. A conditional rez that ONLY WORKS if your target plays aggressive and get an elim. And for the movement, total rework.
@@jeffreychandler8418i honestly think people just like to complain about mercy. there are supports who are way more impactful and annoying. i don’t mine changing rez because it makes mercy weak since she has to wait for something to go wrong to use an ability. however mercy has her movement because she physically cannot fight back like other heroes
As a Ramattra enjoyer, I would've been fine if they designed his entire gameplay around his "Omnic/Mage" form and made Nemesis into his ult. I could see it working if they changed a few things here and there.
I think a key balance goal at the start of OW2 was to make support easier to play and harder to punish. They did a great job and we are certainly feeling the effects rn. I assume the hero design team must have seen some considerable personnel changes (i have no idea if this is true) because the quality of hero design feels like it fell off a cliff after Soj/Kiri/JQ. The new DPS they previewed doesn't look much better to me either. Kinda sad really.
Geoff Goodman, the previous lead hero designer did get fired just a month before Kiriko was launched and replaced with Alec Dawson in September 2022 so yeah it's definitely true there's been a large shakeup at the personnel level
I think they needed a bit more survivability, but it's beyond the joke now. I play in a group where there's maybe 12+ players who dip in and out, and it's really common to see both support spots locked regardless of what our 5 stack is made of. People prefer playing support compared to DPS, and only a handful want to play tank. Support is now the comfort pick. Support is _too_ comfortable, too hardy and too versatile. They need to claw back some of these buffs and design changes.
@@defragsbinit’s genuinely inane because support was never even that bad. but now we live in a world where brig presses Q and instantly gets like 100-200 armour and a 700 HP shield, bap has three health pools, kiri heals over half her HP with one suzu AND becomes immortal AND cleanses everything in the game. I don’t understand how the balance team thinks this shit is okay😭🙏
@@heyheyhello3733 yeah, I honestly don't get it. There have been stretches when the dev team has really struggled with balancing hero simplicity/effectiveness against mechanical requirements, but the latest round of bad design just feels like a complete lack of imagination.
I've only started playing Overwatch in the past couple weeks, and it's been rough. I'm absolutely a tank player, and I really want to get good at JQ, but it's just so frustrating when it feels like my enemy just has to hold M1 to get kills and sustain, but for me it feels like I need to play around my cooldowns and the environment in order to do half as well. I know that part of this is that I'm new and I suck, but it also really doesn't feel like the enemy Mauga needs to play well to get more kills and more healing than me. Also I really don't like the attitudes around swapping to counter people, it's frustrating when my own team shames me for sticking with something suboptimal... though once again I do kinda suck ;-;
As a masters rein 1 trick who was often told to swap: just say fuck it and disable voice. People always default to blaming tank. 90% of comms is just people flaming each other. Learn to play into your counters and focus on improving
No i totally feel you, today i was playing JQ against a Hog and it was crazy how much shit i needed to pull off to heal while the Hog just needed to press one button to be back to full (with extra defense btw) tho i do understand hog's hitbox is way larger I feel like this "low risk, high reward" approach theyre going for is going to kill the game
@@gloomily2388 As a tank player you do need a bit of an ego to enjoy the role, because of how much power you got and are often the default blame target for teammates. But all your teammates could've played better or swap themselves if they wanted to win. As long as you try your best to win you shouldn't feel bad for your teammates.
As a Bastion main, I agree and it's actually the dumbest reason for why he has no risk. It's his passive and tank mode passive making him have 50% damage reduction. It's ridiculously insane how stupidly powerful he is even with that chunk of armor. I saw a good Bastion update concept recently where someone said to give him a quick armor patch button and remove the reduction and replace some health with armor so he's less tanky and has a risk reward system instead of just sitting in the back gunning.
The real problem with Overwatch Hero design is Overwatch's *overall* design. Tanks, Healers, Shields, and Ultimates. Any individual problem with a specific hero must be understood within the team context of the game's most critical mechanic: The Ult economy. The reason sit back and shoot is the preferred strategy is nobody is trying to score picks, they're just farming for ult charge. Why are they farming for ult charge? Because tanks and healers and shields make the prospect of getting picks without expending an ult incredibly small, where the likelihood of feeding the enemy team ult charge is incredibly high.
For quite literally everyone hating on Mercy; her biggest issue is damage boost. NOT her movement as it is quite literally her identity. Rez is debatable, vut it has the longest non-ultimate cooldown and is very easy to deny (5 meter boop. Lucio can stop it, let alone anyone besides winston with a boop). Delete DB then we'll see.
Lifeweaver main here, I just need to say; ... What? Lifeweaver's thorns are an excellent source of damage that can even easily win 1v1's with decent headshot accuracy, not to mention he can EAT through shields and can pressure the enemy's supports by consistently shooting in the backline. A Lifeweaver who isn't shooting his thorns clearly has no idea how to play him.
I feel that the reason the support roster seemingly never gets nerfed is because the devs are scared to nerf the extremely powerful defensive abilities which are most prevalent on supports, even the universal support passive that people have been wanting to be removed for a while now due to it encouraging overly safe gameplay isn’t touched at all and only slight tweaks such as 1 second longer Suzu cd. The only major nerf on the support roster that I can remember is Zenyatta’s discord, an offensive ability.
Supports need the defensive abilities, because literally everyone and their mother focuses them into the dirt. Without their defensive abilities, there would be no reason to even have the supports in the game, because they'd just be erased immediately. Good teams can already erase supports in a second, even with their defensive abilities. It's like saying "Take rein's shield away, it gives him too much survivability!" He wouldn't be at all viable without it.
And good supports can survive pushes from good teams. Yes supports do need defensive utility, but that doesn’t mean they need 3 get out of jail free cards with no real drawbacks. Bap, Kiri, and even Illari all have crazy survivability while still having amazing utility, healing, and damage output. There has to be give and take.
@@pale_hispanic2429 Bap is definitely one of the more ridiculous ones. I feel he's worse than Illari. Kiri is also one of the worst offenders. But I feel there are fairly overtuned heroes in every role, not just support.
@@EvictJr I suppose that's the problem with solo queue. Often tanks get tunnel vision and forget they have a team behind them, without whom they would crumble.
This is why i also believe that qp has offered a far more enjoyable experience than comp. There is greater potential for more unique 1v1 interactions as defensive utilities aren’t stacked as often or coordinated as well to keep the enemy team alive. Besting your role equivalent shouldnt be so centered around the cooldowns of suzu, anti, grip, lamp, self heal etc..
The reason its like this, is because its 5v5 btw. Why risk running into an entire enemy team as genji or tracer, where you can immediately die and get no value, when you can poke from range? If it was 6v6, then yes, your actual value would be a little less, but in 6v6, if the genji dies, no one really minds, and genjis back before you know it. In 5v5, if your genji dies, then you've essentially lost the teamfight. No damage from your side. You've lost one huge chunk from your team comp, etc etc. 5v5 isnt like inherently bad, but it actually limits a lot of design space (Which is why you get heroes/tanks like mauga that MUST sustain themselves to be effective as the ONLY tank), and it makes people play more passively, since like you said, individual play is more pronounced. If you underperform, or god forbid, DIE, then you've essentially lost the teamfight/round/whatever for your team, hell, your first death couldve lost you the entire game. And this simply wasnt the case in 6v6 where teams have a much bigger buffer. in 5v5, individual play is pronounced, in 6v6 team play is pronounced. Which to some, is much better and more important and healthier for a game that's you know, all about team play. In 5v5, why risk playing genji when you can play safe? In 6v6 its the opposite, why play safe? Play risky, if the risk pays off, you get big rewards. That simply isnt the case in 5v5 since one long range pick from a widow or sojourn can just win you the fight.
This is actually why a lot of early heros/hero concepts/hero designs from ow1 no longer play as well or make as much sense to play in the current ow. In 6v6, there was a "defensive buffer" to play heroes like genji and tracer, since there were more big threats on your side that was taking up enemy attention. Since theres no such thing anymore, it makes it tougher to play heroes like that/ design heroes like that, since they dont have that "defensive buffer" anymore. Also, in general, I think Ana herself limits design space, thats the issue with her. Though, I think anti-heal is kinda a necessary thing for the game, its just the way its used rn is very silly as its essentially just an "anti enemy-tank" button on cooldown, rather than what its supposed to be used for -healing your team, giving your team a healing buff, or just anti-healing some annoying enemy. Now its just the "Anti tank" button you press on cooldown, which is very annoying for the enemy tank. -Another casualty from the transition to 5v5, since before if one tank got antied, no big deal, just hide and wait it out behind your other tank, or cleanse it with your ally zarya's bubble, or some such, but since theres no tank on tank interplay anymore, that doesn't exist and you just kinda feel like a sitting duck as a tank now in ow2.
In other words supports are too hard to take out, they can do way too much damage and have far too many ways to get out of trouble. So there’s no downside to just sitting behind their tank (who they are still managing to over heal) and poking you to death from range and deleting you if you get close.
Well put. I think its a funny side effect that flex supports are so safe now that there is no need for a traditional "main support" like Lucio or brig most of the time. OW2 started out with a lucio in ever comp and ana brig is good but... why brig for your ana when Illari pylon exists?
Because Brig has two CCs that shut off flanks, excellent eHP in her shield and armor, a self-heal that can't be broken, faster healing that isn't position dependent in Pack, a better ult, and a better matchup against Sojourn. And when the hell has Lucio EVER not been a flex Support?
@@dashieldmasta177 u were absolutely right until you mentioned lucio being a flex support, he's a main support along with brig mercy and lifeweaver. the terms are weird because they were solidified back in 2016 when pro teams were just starting out and role lock wasn't in the game and Lucio was permapicked, so whoever was playing him was the "main" support player on your team and would never swap off support, whereas the flex support player would sometimes play other roles in specific circumstances like Roadhog or Soldier, etc. Because of this the flex support players generally were the more mechanically capable players of the two so they were the ones to learn heroes like Ana, Baptiste, Kiriko, and Illari when they came out, though nowadays there are a few main support players like CH0R0NG who are good enough mechanically to play aim-intensive heroes like Kiriko at the OWL level.
Illari is pretty bad with Ana, it's more Kiriko that is playable with Ana - Illari has only been run at the top level with Bap successfully but since her nerfs she has seen a massive dropoff in coodinated play and a pretty major winrate hit in ranked across all ranks. Honestly both Lucio and Brig have been extremely good since OW2 started (at the OWL level). Lucio is still mandatory for any Rush comps including even the Sig/Bastion brawl that was meta during OWWC during Blizzcon this year, and Brig has been pretty underrated throughout OW2 because she is really good especially post-ult rework with Ana and Bap with a more effective anti-engage boop than Lucio, and crucially extremely good long range pocket healing with her burst healing packs
Did…..did he just say brig is a main healer? Oh god….. I think I’m going to puke. So this is what the person in my lobby picking brig Lucio, getting outhealed by over 6k every game is thinking in their dumb*** heads.
It's not that they don't know how to balance the game. They purposely make him op and unbalanced so they can sell the battle pass. They definitely know what they're doing
I'm hoping that most of the decision makers on this developer team get moved on after the Microsoft deal goes through fully. Aaron Keller, Jared Neuss, Alec Dawson - these guys have been making awful decisions and taking the game in a terrible direction since season 3.
Let's not pretend day 1 Brigitte never existed. This IP is struggling with awful design decisions since forever, Overwatch lost 90% of their playerbase for a reason, Blizzard claimed this game sold 50 million copies, I highly doubt there's even 5 million active players left, 1 million is already a wild guess. The direction of this series was a disaster, Overwatch had to potential to be bigger than League of Legends
no wonder the game feels absolutely horrendous rn, like your gonna nerf genji from season 1, keep tracer in her current state and buff anything that is played safely. And somehow constantly just adding more healing or buffing healers in general. I understand that support players don't like it when theres a flanker on their ass constantly annoying them but that is literally why these heroes were made in the first place, if you want your role to be strong you will also have to face the fact that your counters are gonna have to be strong as well. i never was a fan of heroes being buffed just to get nerfed. I really believe that if you buff a hero to be considered good or even meta to be fine, however instead of nerfing them back to being bad why don't they just indirectly nerf them by trying to buff other weaker compositions? because from all i see its like hey! hero is bad, lets buff! oh no statsics show hero too good?? stomp it in the ground. I think direct nerfs should only really be applied once the hero can suddenly beat its counter which would indicate that a hero is truly overpwered. But that is just my opinion in the end (probably very controversial since people don't rly like facing genji and tracer for example)
it feels like theyve been making a lot of changes to ensure (nearly) every character can be played during any given time, instead of certain heroes having a niche situation that they work best at. i personally thought it was fine to have some characters built for specific situations or team comps. they had areas where they absolutely shine, but clear and distinct weakness/downfalls. old bastion/sym were a pain to deal with when set up, but catch them before they can bunker and it wasn't much of a problem, zen before he got his health increased and his kick had game altering abilities but little to no defensive capabilities when he was dove. it was about high risk, high reward gameplay. now everything is safe
Another thing to consider is the support role passive which takes away from the fundamental overwatch design where heroes were forced to make decisions that were more interactive with the course of the game. For example take Ana, she could use her nade offensively but that would give a cue to an attentive enemy player that she would be ideal to dive as she would have no means of self healing for a short while. If Ana saved the nade for herself or for her team then she wouldn’t get value from the anti healing affect. It made the game more dynamic and interactive when supports had to make decisions like this. The support role passive kind of nullifies this principle as they aren’t forced to invest cooldowns into themselves as much anymore.
I've been an Ana one trick since her release and this definitely messed up a bit of her design. You never were SUPPOSED to nade yourself in theory, in a perfect world, but now with support self heal, I just literally never self nade in a close range duel where I can catch both of us with the effect. It literally makes her less interesting to play.
@@sarika3689 yeah and it’s sad because she is very well designed. The shift to 5v5 and the addition of support role passive makes her play style less complex, and less fun overall.
>the 200HP, zero armor, zero shield, zero overhealth hero with no movement abilities needs to be using one of their two cooldowns that are the only reason to play them for a mediocre self-heal And this is why Support was extremely unfun in OW1. Everyone wants to kill you, and you have to pick between actually being able to do something about it and not exploding. You know what's uninteractive? When your abilities that let you interact with the game have to be constantly held back so you're not a free kill.
@@dashieldmasta177 and now tank and dps are unfun to play in ow2 because of support creep. Ana in ow1 could do well with good mechanics, ergo: game sense, aim, and positioning. Now supports are better duelists than a lot of the dps roster, and tanks can’t dive or create space on their mains without being counterpicked and are forced to play meta. Dps feels like a cosmetic role a lot of the time. Supports aren’t meant to be deathless and tanky, trade offs are not inherently a bad thing, and just because you were getting dived on over and over again by a bunch of dive heroes doesn’t mean Ana’s kit was bad, it just meant you were at a disadvantage. If anything the biggest annoyance about playing support in ow1 was an over reliance on the tank to make space and protect you from dive. If you got worse tanks than the enemy team it often felt like an uphill battle, so the removal of a tank automatically made support role more impactful and less helpless as you have 1 less tank to absorb cooldowns, make space, or dive you. So I don’t see the support role passive as being intrinsically needed, as supports have been designed with a lot more utility in ow2 than in ow1 already and already have more survivability due to the removal of a tank. Forcing supports to make decisions gives complexity to their gameplay. An ana in ow1 had to choose between saving nade for themselves defensively, healing allies, and applying Anti-heal affect and or sleeping someone. Ana in ow2 can now just get huge value by simply throwing their nade on the enemy tank on cooldown with no drawbacks. It lowers the skill floor and does nothing for the skill ceiling. Tanks were no different in ow1, take Winston for example. If Winston used his bubble for his team he would be unable to do a hard dive as he would be easily targeted by the enemy team without bubble. If he committed to a hard dive and the enemy team successfully counter pressured him or he didn’t get value from the dive then the support on his team would be forced to waste resources in order to keep him from dying, which would be a cue to the enemy team that the supports have less resources to deal with a dive or poke. There was an Ebb and flow to the game by this use of cooldowns and how players reacted to them. This is diminished when you have so many abilities that are get out of jail cards and safety nets from the support line up.
@@XTAKU. if tank and dps are unfun why does support have shortest queue times? Not even reading the rest of your shit because your first statement makes no sense.
I stopped caring about overwatch when it switched to 5v5. IDK why they thought simplifying a game where each character has less abilities than a 2d League of legends character was a good idea.
I do think people should be able to play what they want and win(regardless of it being qp or ranked). Just not every character needs to be top tier/competitively viable. As a support main, i do agree with the fact that Kiriko basically has no downsides. Although i feel like the only reason she exists is to counter cc/anti. I do think she needs to be retuned. Her kunais are fine though. We'd just have another bap or Ana, and i think she needs something different. Also Kiri does take more skill to hit shots. I dont think her damage is the problem, its the rest of her kit thats just unfun to play against
kiri's kunais have a projectile radius of 0.18 whereas zen's orbs have a radius of 0.15, ana's unscoped shots have a radius of 0.1, illari left click has a radius of 0.005 (weird that she has a projectile making it easier to connect shots in the first place considering she's hitscan) and bap is just flat out hitscan so 0 projectile size. she absolutely has the easiest time hitting her primary fire of any high damage support, so those need to be reigned in considering her playstyle is to offangle with a DPS of hers and hitting just a couple headshots on a tank or dps can completely swing a teamfight in your favour.
To me this conversation feels very similar to the conversation surrounding GOATS, where the game favours playing safe and defensive rather than offensive, and it hit me: we never really got rid of GOATS did we? All we did was force teams to have 2 DPS on the team, at no point did we address the fact that the game favours defensive play over offensive plays. As such, we see cases like these which feels like GOATS showing its ugly head but in a different form.
First of all, rly glad to have you back tikatee. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw you made a video after so long. Second of all, I completely agree with your philosophy of balancing offensive and defensive utility in characters while also forcing players to make a choice between the two. Crazy enough, I know of a game that I think does both of these perfectly. It's called exoprimal and it's incredibly underrated not because the game is fun (which it is) but because the hero (or exosuit) gameplay designs make every role feel so fun to play. This is best exemplified in their support line which only has 3 heroes but is so engaging even with little hero variety. Almost every single healing ability that a support has also has an offensive component to it: like a yin-yang. To give an example, Witch Doctor is the most common support who is like brigitte. For starters his main weapon is a close range taser that slows down enemies and has a resource meter that refills if you don't use the weapon for some time. One of his main healing tools is a close range, aimable stim shot that heals an ally on collision, but it can also be used offensively. Using this stim shot on an enemy will slow down the enemy and RECHARGE your taser's resource meter to its max, so I often found myself having to make a choice between healing my teammates with the stim shot or recharging my weapon by shooting at an enemy. The other 2 supports are even more rich in player choice and offensive/defensive balance which is crazy considering that Witch Doctor is considered more defensive even though he's constantly encouraged to recharge his offense off of the enemy. It's a shame that such good hero design got buried under a game nobody cares abt.
From a pure gameplay side of thing, yes Exoprimal is a damn banger. It just sucks being 50 hours in, and being put into the very first mission because one player who just started their journey gets matchmade with the nine others who have made it to “the good stuff”
The problem with OW2 hero balance is that, there is no balance. They decided to chuck balance completely out the window when they released the first new hero in OW2 and it's just gone down-hill from there, with their seasonal and mid season balance updates. I'm a tank main, yet when i'm playing, i don't feel like a tank whatsoever. I just feel like an ult builder for the enemy team. A bullet sponge. I sometimes say to myself, i may as well just stand afk and let them shoot and kill me, because it doesn't matter if i move or use defensive abilities as my defensive abilities will simply be nullified instantly, and my ult will be deleted instantly. It's not just the newer heroes that are a problem, it's the changes they've made to older heroes as well, and when they leave out so many other heroes who also need to be reworked or buffed, then balance goes out the window completely. When OW2 released, Every Single Hero was balanced towards 6v6, and most of them still ARE balanced towards 6v6. With only one tank, you'd think they'd nerf the damage output on support, but nope. Instead they try to mitigate it by giving tanks more health/shields, but what the heck does that even do when they still have heroes like Ana with their anti nade, Zen with his discord orb (They even BUFFED his damage!) and last but not least all the immortality mechanics from both DPS and Support. When it was 6v6 it wasn't such a massive issue, but with just one tank to deal with all of that BS, it's just downright impossible to even enjoy the game, much less play at a competitive level when there's just one meta viable for any match. So, the real problem is that the majority of heroes are still balanced around 6v6, tanks and support in particular, where tanks are now in a much weaker state since they don't have a 2nd tank to take some of the load off vs all these insane support abilities and their damage output across the board. The dev team simply don't know what balance means. They want to add heroes to the BP in a broken state so that people flock to the shop to get a BP so they can play the latest broken hero they've released. The solution to all of this is to lower the damage output on support, increase the cooldowns on major utility abilities such as anti nade, suzu, lamp etc, because that's where the real problem lies. They don't need to buff tanks or damage heroes. They need to make sure that support isn't stronger than DPS and Tanks. They need to make sure that Tanks can actually survive the process of creating space, because creating space right now is a nightmare as a tank. You push your W only to end up being insta killed in most cases after getting anti naded, discord orbed, the enemy Bap throwing down a lamp and window and solo kill you or the Illari who just boops you around and three taps you on a charged rifle. Either that, or they need to get their heads out of their rear ends and re-instate 6v6, since the majority of heroes are already balanced around it..
Good video. I think you put into words how I feel the game is at. It doesnt feel like there is a lot of insentive to take risks and do dives most of time now, when you can often just be effective playing it safe at a distance. Especially if that risk doesnt pay off you will likely be hurting your team being a person down. I am not sure how to fix it, but I think I agree that some more dive characters that are well thought out and balanced is a good start.
Hard pill to swallow: This game will never be balanced or fun for people who play the Tank role, because of the format they created, as other people said, the game and some heroes were designed for 6v6. As for the issues that 6v6 had, like double shields, they could be easily fixed by balancing, but the devs chose not to, because of the development of the dumpster fire that is Overwatch 2. The devs will keep trying to fix things, but in the end it's just a band-aid and problems will remain, since the 5v5 is a flawed mode and they'll will never go back to 6v6, because it's admitting this game was a failure from the start.
This sounds like you want more prediction/outplay potential from all sides which I would agree with. An ability should have counters/ways to outplay it. There are some abilities in the game right now that have so much impact (and are kinda simple for the amount of impact) that holding them for the perfect opportunity trumps any use of that ability to outplay an opponent. A good example is zarya ult vs genjis deflect or baps immortality. The risk vs reward for Genji is comparable whereas the risk is very low comparably to the reward on baps end. Same goes for Illari ult vs genji deflect or kiriko suzu. Ana sleep I think is a pretty good sweet spot in most instances, but disproportionally hurts heroes like Ball or Doom because their kits want them to dive but diving against ana is just giving up agency. You rely on the ana to play poorly rather than outplaying the ana in any way. Although I don't entirely agree with the video, I welcome more discussion and opinions of people who love Overwatch so keep em coming !!
If they keep "reworking" Sombra, then we all know the game becomes even more unbalanced. People like Fitzyhere want to believe us she is not OP and the reworks still come with some "nerfs". Thats bullshit. They should either nerf her damn weapon or her hack. Why the heck does such a tiny ass SMG have so many rounds, such high accuracy (no recoil?!) and a high damage output?
Going to 5v5 wasn’t wrong objectively but the fundamental asymmetry of any situation where the tank isn’t fighting the other tank makes it nearly impossible for structured fights to be the default when engagement initiating tanks like Rein, Winston, etc. are viable. I think that’s why they have basically incentivized trench warfare. It’s to slow down and stabilize the game ostensibly to make it more casual/new player friendly. The thing is, they just made it suck for everyone.
And to make a 8 years old game more "friendly" for novices, that's a stupid concept by itself. The new players have plenty of options, there's so many "competitive online" games of multiple genres. The only people who are still around, that is the old players from the 6v6 era. Overwatch not only competes with first person shooters (even Halo is also zombified), but they also compete with moba games, lol so good luck with that, trying to attract the new and losing the old, this game reportedly sold 50 million copies somehow, nowadays if Overwatch have 500k active players... let's say 1 million just to be gentle, that is already a wild guess. From 50 million to 1 million, it's a disaster, had potential to be one of the biggest IPs in the industry, producing spin-offs, animations, toys, etc.. like League of Legends is doing in recent years. But look at the actual results
I'm a Support player(have been since Christmas of 2016) and one thing that has me tired is constantly having to go Kiriko or Ana. I'm not even a high ranking player, Im in Plat, but it feels like every game is either me or my cosupport going Ana, Kiriko, or both because either the enemy tank is destroying ours, or the enemy Ana is constantly nading our Tank. I genuinely dont mind playing anytihng other than Mercy and Moira(hell, I mained them for most of my time as a OW player, it's time to branch out and take a break) but it genuinely feels like I traded them for Ana and Kiriko and I dont truly have the choice to play other heroes unless I feel like gambling on how good me and my team can play around not having them. Even my DPS games tend to be dictated by the presence of Ana and Kiriko. We gotta worry about how good the Ana is and if anyone on the team will swap to counter her, or(since I play mostly flankers) we gotta worry about the enemy Kiriko popping off and the threat of getting two tapped via 1 or 2 headshots if we try to check her or the other support. I wont say the game is unplayable, but it's honestly getting stale.
I would debate Doomfist and Brig are also forced to sitback and shoot to some extent due to nerfs or changes to the kit itself. Doomfist with being put into tank and nerf his damage to turn him into Doomprimaryfire (yes, this is what some Doom mains and memers call the character from time to time). Of course, this does not stop those who perfected Doomfist's techs that enable him to be more fun despite damage nerfs. Brig with her "optimal" gameplay being evasive and holding a position either whipping an enemy or using a repair pack while the shieldbash is only used to disengage and escape. Sometimes, it is literally just only sending repair packs. As for most of Brig players including myself, that is boring af.
But brig has always been a defensive character it’s why the only times you feel like you’re doing something is when you’re playing against dive because that’s when her her whole kit shines
@@m4hiiro Yet, that is not how I play her most of the time as I often find it overall boring if in a position too long and just start roaming around neutral/team territory and doing other things, mosting checking for flankers or hunting sombras (so far my most favorite thing to do aside being a flanker brig on the right maps). Don't get me wrong, getting that whip that can deny an enemy hero diving unto your other support is satisfying, but usually never comes.
How the hell are the only tank in the game with multiple escapes and the Support with 500 eHP forced to sit back? Doom and Brig are both pretty good right now. All Supports are viable, and Ball is the only bad tank in the game. Once Mauga nerfs (and hopefully a small Ram nerf, not a lot, but maybe take a little bit of armor away) hit in the midseason patch, things will level out a lot.
@@dashieldmasta177 Honestly, no real clue, but I do know people who do spam and shoot kill stuff stupidly fast with their to where even with all the mobility in the world. Even trying to do anything that may be interaction like whipshoting an enemy becomes a possible instadeath even if the enemy don't have a widow or hanzo. Doesn't help that the OW2 I play is console version, where Dive feels incrediblely sluggish unless it is ball, winston, or rarely genji (I think Console is the reason genji gets nerfed from time to time).
Seems kind of delusional to say that we need more supports like Ana, when she's one of the biggest issues in the game atm, with defensive utility so strong that diving her is generally a death sentence. The biggest roadblock to dive is the fear of being anti'd or slept, because if either hits you during your dive, you basically lose the 1v1 in melee range vs a sniper.
You're insane if you think that Ana's defensive utility (especially landing a sleep dart on a diver) is the same as a Lifeweaver petal, a Baptiste drone/burst, or an Ilari who places her turret in a position you can't hit. At least with Ana, you can dodge her sleep dart her or force her to use her grenade on herself. Meanwhile, Baptiste has 3 health bars, Ilari can effectively duel with her damage, and Lifeweaver just ignores you if he puts his petal down. You can't even chase him after since you used you mobility cooldown to get close (that's even IF you have a way to vertically get to him anyway).
No one talks about how difficult it is to hit some characters. The strange speed in this game makes it really hard to have good tracking on thinner characters. I think across the board characters should strafe slower depending on the type of character. Tanks the slowest. Dps and healers the fastest.
We only saw a bit of footage, but the next dps hero seems like a step in the right direction. Very low range primary fire, dash that impales enemies with the drill, can drill underground to escape but it also does a damaging jump upon exiting so it can be used offensively
I actually don't agree, as the new DPS doesn't look like they would be good and they also seem to be more of a brawl hero. But the next support hero looks really promising and I'm just waiting until she gets released so we hopefully get a more prevalent dive meta
underground drill= worse wraith form because ur team can't heal/target you with shields/abilities as ur retreating/engaging because ur underground. dash= worse teleport/tracer blink because no i-frames and short range. the only way the new hero is gonna be good is an amazing ultimate or very strong gun.
Disagree entirely. Drill Rush is gonna be her engage tool, Burrow is the disengage tool. Using it offensively would be like using Translocator offensively. It CAN work out in your favor, but most of the time it'll just get you caught out with no escape.
The problem with this game is supports they ruined ow1 and they are ruining ow2. Notice how the game in ow1 every one ran double shields or goats meta because of Brigit or baptise two tanks was never an issue. This game same problem too much sustain to make things even worth it. Maug for example what makes him so broken is he has incredible sustain but what makes him busted in lower ranks to mid ranks are the damn supports. Get anti nade? Kiriko cleanses you. About to die drop immortality field. Need AOE healing? Choose any damn supports who not only heal a ton but have get out of jail free card with insane Ults kiriko looking at you. I’ve had games where in maug fighting another maug and it literally comes down to what support messes up first. Annoying arse gameplay man…
I still feel like it's 5v5 that's completely mangled the balance and fun of playing tanks in ow2. I'm not a good player by any means (gold/plat in ow1, climbed to masters in ow2 without even trying because of how braindead easy the gameplay is), but I know what's fun and what isn't. I used to play tank almost exclusively, I could run in and do fun stuff or come up with funny strats with my tank duo, but since the release of ow2 I've played less and less tank to the point where I haven't even touched the role in months. It's just not fun to sit there and take all the shots and as soon as I try to do anything other than that, I'm running the risk of my team getting bulldozed and the enemy team dumping all their cooldowns into me at once.
I’d have loved more characters who have to do X to do Y like how Moira needs to do some damage to get her heal juice, like make illaris heal pylon tied to her dealing damage so that way your passive existence isn’t doing more than someone like Anna
I've seen suggestions that Illari should have to charge up her pylon with her altfire, like pouring gas back in it. Lets it stay as a useful tool for pushing, but denies AFK value by making her have to dump resources into it midfight.
I was nodding my head along to pretty much every point you brought up here. As someone who really enjoys the more "ride the line" kinds of heros like winston, genji, lucio, etc., the game just feels so punishing to play compared to safe options like bap or soj. I think what you were saying that backlines are too safe means that teams can run really greedy backlines such as lifeweaver illari and not have to worry like they did in OW1. I don't know if this is something the devs want to fix but until they do my enjoyment of this game overall is definitely souring over time.
@Tikatee I agree with your assessment, and would like to add: The devs also got rid of the maps that would punish you for sit-back and shoot playstyles, such as the 2CP maps. These were maps where, in order to get past the defense, you HAD to know how to go in and get aggressive. The Offense team that just had tanks that stood at choke always lost. Bring back 2CP, and watch Overwatch crumble under the weight of its current balance philosophy.
The problem is them spending all their time creating new game modes just to double our average time in QP to nerf xp so people buy battlepass levels. If flashpoint is in qp, why is not best of 3 instead of 5?… How about the new seasonal event where even if you buy the ticket pass there isn’t enough tickets to buy all the skins let alone everything 😂. All their energy goes in to selling trash and nothing to do with player experience. COD and Overwatch the same trash, Microsoft robbed us of decent creators and content
Hanzo is the biggest sit back and shoot all he does is shoot and hope that he hits a headshot and if he gets pushed he just needs to use his scatter arrows and his leap
I remember back in OW1 Mei was my favorite because of how you would run up to the enemy team with purpose and freeze the most important person, but in OW2 she's just another dps who sits back and shoots.
Freezing mechanic was obnoxious after being frozen sitting there waiting for rmb headshot. It did give her some flavour and personality though I’ll agree with that
I'm a Sombra player, and a lot of this makes sense and her rework kind of put her more in the sit back and shoot archetype you mentioned, just, aggressively? Her talents are annoying to other players, sure, but her whole kit had choice before the reworks for OW2. Invis was good for escapes or aggressive positioning. Hack could be used to stop an enemy from wrecking your team, or it could be used to make an opening. Translocator could be used lazily to run away to the other side of the map, but, it could be used to keep an aggressive and advantageous position. Now, hack is still good, but i's really only used to interrupt since it's so short. Invis is still both, but you don't have agency on when you use it the same way. Translocator is just movement now, you use it to get in quicker, and then run when it's more than a 1v1. Virus is purely offensive, there's no flexibility in it, other than when should you use it against Kiriko, before or after a cleanse. I know she's not a beloved hero by most of the community, but I think she shows that unique utility that makes impacts often is disliked by the community. It even happened to Ana eventually.
I prefer the OW1 Sombra version. I don’t mind the low dmg and huge weapon spread, but the hack duration was longer. It gave her a unique role of being a pure “ability disabler”. Now it feels like she’s just another Tracer 😅
@@xxxtreme2002 me too! That's why I liked her, I'm a support player in my heart, and it was nice to be able to do some damagey, utility type support as a DPS. Ya know, set up your other dps and tanks for something awesome. Now she's just Tracer with more steps for kills. But! Can shut down ults. So it's like, she's less unique, but still annoying, which is less good for everyone
For me it's Ana's kit that is least fun to play against. They removed DPS passive but kept it on supports. At the moment, supports are better DPS than DPS.
There are just too many heroes for the game to be fun. You're constantly forced to do something you don't want to do. Swapping never feels good. I always feel like I was forced to swap and that always feels like losing. Even if we win. I felt like I got out of the way by swapping and it allowed everyone else to win for me.
now I don't even play the game, I just que up for QP and go into deathmatch and as soon as I get a match I cancel out and que back up and go into deathmatch. I CANT BELIEVE how fun this is to the point where when I get a match I'm infuriated that Blizzard would think I would want to actually play their garbage game with my free time.
Play support. You can pick basically any hero you feel like playing and have impact. You can even one trick a support and have a lot of fun. Within the roster there are totally different playstyles too.
they have to make stop easy characters. the game philosophy of making the game easier over time is so stupid. it completely takes away from the skill curve of getting better at the game and makes skill redundant just because another character is just better than yours
Excellent video, subbed. You actually opened up a constructive discussion from a place of love for the game. I feel it's too easy for a lot of people in this community to go "ah Blizzard sucks and so does Overwatch" and offer no solution oriented thinking to start a dialogue on how to fix things. I would love to see more stuff like this with an added focus on making sure the visuals of the video support what you're saying rather than just being filler in the background. Having onscreen examples of any given gameplay element would be helpful in illustrating your point.
i think it’s important for heroes to have exploitable weaknesses / strengths. every new hero is kinda just flat and it’s boring. exciting heroes like tracer and widowmaker and winston fit into that.
off topic but 5v5 ruins the game, what i mean by this is if one of your tank/supports are throwing (mainly tank) then you're all dead. also you can run cool strats
Don’t forget that Blizzard’s solution to this is to insanely buff damage so that peeking out the wrong corner means instant death if it’s against two people. Then they insanely buffed healing. So now the game is either W Key in if you’re pocketed or die from a paper cut. Mauga fits this meta to a T. If supports didn’t heal as much, he would lose a lot of his sustain.
Hey, thanks for the video :D I wanted to run this by anyone who might read this. But I feel like we are still having the same problem that we have had for ages. GOATS formed, because of this problem, and thats what has lead us to where we are now. We have these roles. Tank, DPS, Support. But the longer i look at it, the more often I see newer heroes, including alot released in ow1, come out as being able to fill 2 of those roles at once. Specifically, Tanks and Supports, participating way too much in Raw Damage dealing. Not damage boost or offensive cooldowns like anti nade. I mean straight, Big damaging hits. Why would you bother having DPS, if support and tanks can do the same job, but be safer and be able to provide team buffs. My thoughts on this arent to pull tanks and support away from playing offensively, but to provide them different ways to participate other than dealing raw damage. I like Sigma's rock as an example here. CC, Anti, and even zarya bubbles. Are excelent ways of offensively contributing to a fight without having to hold M1 and kill their team before they kill yours. Whilst i think supports should always be able to M1 and assist in fights, especially like bap does, weaving things in. I actually prefer seeing supports like Lifeweaver, where he is getting most of his value from not playing DPS. (He is certainly a little too safe, but I like the idea behind it.) On the flip side, what do DPS do? Kill things? Kill things better? Get to a point that they have to 1 shot every character else they cant keep up with the defensive abilities combined with the damage of Tanks and Support? Anyway, my little rant, I want to hear feedback on this though, as I haven't had many people to talk with this about who could actually bring some knowledge to the table. I could be totally off the mark, but it just seems weird that every class can do DPS, but DPS cant do every class. As an even dumber side note, shouldnt we just swap Mauga with Mei xD Thanks for reading all, and if you have any opinions on the above would love to hear them, good or bad, its appreciated. Enjoy your Days!
Hi, I actually think this tale is pretty good. But I think a more nuanced point is maybe that tanks SHOULD be able to do good damage, but at a limited range ie rein, winston. I love sigma and his damage/ range but I’d bet other aspects of his kit would i make up for this. I’d lower healing by about half across the board. And I’d change immortality to field to baptistes ultimate and give it a larger health pool and range. I think all massive damage mitigation from supports should be ultimate abilities like transcendence and beat. Cool-downs like Suzu and lamp should not be available every fight. Also they have to find a way to make tanks not rock paper scissor. But I’m not sure that’s even realistic in 5v5. Those are my thoughts anyway!
@@lilbongchainz2870 Thanks for replying :D Yeah, I agree with the idea with tank damage. Although instead of just range, limit it to a more nuanced method. Sigma is a great example. Unless I'm mistaken, he still has a 1 shot. But said 1 shot relies on him hitting rock and not missing the followup. When you get things like Orisa, Mauga, Hog. Its just shoot shoot shoot, till you need to do something else. Whilst I really like Junker Queen and think her kit itself is quite balanced. I do think she is less of a tank and more just, DPS. I thought that changing her shotgun into a Spear Gun, a mid range projectile, that has maybe 3 ammo, but when it lands, you can use alt fire to pull the enemy in. But if you land 3 shot on 1 hero, it does stacks, or if you land it on multiple heros it pull them all for a base amount. Would allow her to use her pulling action, more often defensively. Allowing her team to kite better from dives and brawls, protecting her backline. Unlike her current knife which, while can accomplish the same thing, is a single target, meaning its more often just spammed. With the primary fire and alt fire being combined, she would have more decisions to make reguarding when she should pull people. Rather than just, pull target, kill target. Like a DPS character. In reguards to healing, I disagree with an across the board halving of healing. Rather, I would prefer healing to come from specific sources. Brig vs Bap as an example. Brig has 2 healing sources. Passive AOE, Single target "burst". Bap has 2 aoe healing sources, and gets extra healing on his ability when people are critical. Yes they are different characters for different situations, but its still a little over the top. As for Support Cooldowns, Stuff like suzu and lamp need to be handled carefully. I'm pretty 50/50 about wanting them in the game. I like the split second of suzu, but also just think its trash to watch someone thats a free kill just turn white and escape. But if Kiriko couldn't 2 tap headshot while she is invulnerable then I'd definately feel better about it. Same with bap, honestly just remove his mobility, cut him off at the legs like ana, and he'd be infinitely less annoying. (But i understand why he has the jumpies because of fun / healing grenade.) Rock Paper Sissors, w/ tanks especially, would be alot easier if they werent making tanks like Mauga, where they just raw do damage, and instead used a fun mechanic, like sigma/rein/zarya that can be played around. The generic answer to zarya is: dont shoot her bubbles, bait them out, then fight her while she weak. Rather than making WALL tanks: Kill their supports first. Honestly, any tank that can only defend themselves should just be thrown out the fucking window at this point. Ball/Doom being prime fucking examples of tanks that either have to be so oppressive on their own, or their team have to play smarter than they usually do with the other tanks. Huge damn rant! xD But thank you for the response, given me alot more to think about along side the original concept.
The worst part is, on maps like circuit Royale, defensive comps are always poke, that easily wring out dive comps, and cover on the attackers side is less abundant, so even running poke can be difficult. It's just a back and forth that isn't very enjoyable.
Something that would've been extremely helpful towards understanding these characters and their kits is to actually *show* gameplay of each character while you're talking about them. As is, visual learners have nothing to go on b/c most of the video is b-roll footage of .
Someone please expload this video even more. I think he broke this whole overwatch problem down to its foundations. This game was fun when people took risk and on top of that, i think 5v5 just feels less creativy as opposed to 6v6. Dive in 6v6 still had risk, but when executed properly, you could actually secure kills and positions you needed in order to win. Now maybe season 9 could help to get things going, but i think this same proplem with these characters, the low risk, high reward characters will still continue forward on.
Written with the help of a translator, but I hope you can understand me. It's really hard to play as a tank, all enemy focuses are coming towards you, you deal less damage than the enemy healer restores. It’s simply impossible to play as a damage dealer, you need to have good aim or use abilities clearly, while an enemy on Kiriko or Zenyatta can randomly hit you in the head, not to mention the world, which you need to hold down one button. In the first overwatch, the damage dealers really gave the healers a nightmare, but now you won’t even have time to approach them. What about healers? They take too much damage because they don't focus on healing their team, they just run around and shoot randomly like Kiriko. Therefore, it is simply impossible to play this game. At a minimum, you need to reduce damage to healers and increase damage to dealers, and ideally reconsider all heroes
Just started the video But just wanna to say the game would be better if they brought the second tank back The second tank was responsible for “taking heat” off the other members of your team. Since there is no second tank, there’s no one to do that since they’ll just die immediately. This is why Mei, Brig, and even fat Mcree will always be insanely effective when played in that way with the right comp around it. You are basically breaking out of the role format if played well enough since you have multiple heroes doing cross functional things.
As a ball main, based take. Unfortunately I saw a reasoning on why 6v6 can't happen and that is because with how the game is built, it can't support a 6v6 and we would need a overwatch 3 for that. At the end of the day I think 5v5 was a good choice but there can defiantly be balancing to help out the single tank.
@@Bobthebob16 yea idk where you saw that, but there is absolutely no reason 6v6 isn’t possible. It’s their own laziness and refusal to accept that they fucked up. And to be honest they could never go back because without 5v5, what even was overwatch 2? A cash grab
@@Bobthebob16 yea…flats runs a lot of cover for the devs 🤷♂️ fact of the matter is, there is no technical reason they can’t do it. They just don’t want to rebalance the heroes back to 6v6 hp and dmg numbers and rework the heroes the reworked for 5v5
How to get balance back on the right track: remove all role passives and implement 6v6 again. The lack of the second tank IS the reason why the community is crying about supports right now. Then just stop making characters who require zero effort get as much value as the characters that actually take skill to play
So, make people NEED to use their abilities to be effective, instead of being 95% as effective without doing so, and having 3 times more survivability by not doing the engaging+saving your abilities for disengage So make people either safe or effective, instead of having a choice between both(stay back and shoot) or nome(try to do something fun and die)
It's difficult to comment without repeating what you said in the video, because everything you went over summed up entirely how I feel. I've mained Reaper for a great deal of the game's history, because he feels like the perfect character that's "designed" for the type of game Overwatch should've been. You're rewarded for finding clever ways to either close gaps alone for your team to capitalize on, or hold ground pushing with the rest of them. But over the years with the introduction of these characters, teams became far less mobile and far more boring. These characters feel designed for or inspired by totally different games. They don't require any thought and can just get out of jail free. Why put myself at risk as a short range character just to get removed from the map by a sniper that never has to engage in the fight? Why play this character, when Sojurn unfairly gets to blow up anything with the same damage as your point blank headshot miles and miles away, and when you push on her, all she has to do is zip away? Why go for a bold kill on a front liner with low health, when Kiriko can just Suzu your damage into nonexistence? Why push or progress, when all your lifeweaver wants to do is run and fall back over and over? The clock ticks away at the top of the screen, nothing is being done. The game might as well be 2018 but "NUH UH" came up on your HUD instead of you getting a pick when you deplete a healthbar. People want to play it in the least proactive way possible and YOU get punished for taking action. In the days of Overwatch 1, you have a kind of risk everywhere. The fun came from finding ways to think around them, not just press a button that eliminates them entirely. I don't understand the "modern" overwatch player, who overcomplicates the fun out if the game and doesn't get that nothing happens if you don't move up. It's an objective based game, so you should get to the objective not fire over your tanks and across no man's land. Much less, get rewarded for that.
I just wish the devs would understand that it’s ok to not have every hero in the top tier. There are certain characters that should just be low skill brainless fun, and never tweaked with the intention of being competitive. Trying to make heroes like Bastion, Mauga, Roadhog, Lifeweaver, etc. viable is wearing the game down. Let the newer and QP players have their fun, but don’t try to make these things competitive
She's a low rank dominator. Winston has been free wins against Orisa for seasons. Even when she was allegedly strong. Which I dont feel shes been since she could basically one shot ppl if she speared them into wall. For real any time someone says "nobody can stop orisa" it just says they are low rank or dont know how to play another character. Literally just focus any body except for orisa and you can beat her on every single tank
Handsome AND well spoken? What can’t he do?! Of course, it’s dead on as usual. What continues to blow me away season over season, release after release is Blizz’s complete inability to predict these outcomes. Even that assumes that this Isn’t what they wanted.. and maybe that’s generous, but… man, it feels like the people who can critically think about the obvious second order effects are far, far away from the decision making rooms.
People with this game have such strong outlooks that they can say one thing I agree on, and then talk about a drastic change that I think would suck. For someone who’s been with this game for so long to sum things up like this is so refreshing. Thank you for this vid, here’s to hoping things change for the better in 2024
I’ve mained Winston/Zarya since S2 OW1, fluctuate between plat/diamond, masters for a split second This is by far the toughest season to play tank in OW2 I gotta play my absolute best against Mauga Too much dmg/sustain right now
I've been getting more burnt out with Overwatch lately than I have at any point in the game's past, this video covers one of the major reasons why. Are you guys still enjoying the game? Am I crazy and is everyone having a blast holding M1 all game as Mauga? Let me know what you think!
Not crazy. Game is uninstalled for me. Don't plan on going back. More and more frustrating every season
I really love the shooting part of the game which is the reason I still play the game, I definitely would have uninstalled long ago if we went into ow2 with goats or double shield still being meta. It's definitely a support meta right now which just feels horrible since supports just decide if you win or lose especially with the half devil in the corner kiriko.
Mauga is the most boring hero they've ever released and my friends and I haven't touched Overwatch since the new CoD
"new" COD 😂
Overwatch feels great when you have 2 teams who aren’t wanting to play hard meta, but that ain’t happening even in most of my QP games where the enemy tank locks in Maui and because I didn’t buy the pass I have to sit there and try my butt off for anything when he holds W right and left mouse buttons and does more than me
The line at the end where you said “No wonder Tank feels awful, there’s so much damage coming at you, and it’s not worth anyone else taking the risk of stepping up” perfectly put this whole concept into words in such a concise way, and it’s condensed a feeling that I’ve had with the game for a long time. A lot of things in the game right now just “aren’t worth” in comparison to these much safer options, and it makes things feel unfun, as the amount of value you can get from brain dead picks (Bastion etc) is almost as high as incredibly skilful picks, but requiring about 1% of the effort to play
I think Flats said it best, damage and healing numbers are way too high for the amount of hp is given nowadays. Everything is over-tuned and unbalanced. These devs don’t even try to fix issues or glitches, they introduce different mechanics and compensations as an excuse.
Reason 100000000 why we need 6v6 back
Hmmmm what if there where 2 Tanks hmmmm
@@zenues EXACTLYYY!!!! 6v6 is literally the only solution! like everyone with a brain has been saying all along! You can actually play the game and DO THINGS when its 6v6! its amazing! You dont have to counter swap 24/7 especially if your on a map with alot of high ground and your playing hog or zarya or rein for example! Because you have another tank to cover that weakness for you! you can design heros around niches because they have another hero to cover their weaknesses for them! amazing right? almost like thats why they designed the game like that in the first place! You can take risk in 6v6, even if the balance is horrible! but in 5v5 the game feels like double shield ON STEROIDS if the game is even SLIGHTLY unbalanced. THis is blizzard we will NEVER have a balanced game! So please! bring back 6v6!
To make 5v5 good, is something blizzard cannot do, maybe its possible but BLIZZARD WILL NOT do it!!!!!
I'm in their backline having to spend a lot of effort getting very little done at times, tbh. One kiri spam shot sends me back to a health pack as Tracer. Half a second of auto-aim heals stops me killing stuff as Ball, and even if I do make a big play, there's always TP/Suzu/Pull/Lamp/Rez etc. It's all out of whack because some of the easiest & least committal heroes have a similar or even a larger impact.
Removing 2 tanks has, in my opinion, been detrimental to the game flow of Tank gameplay and putting an absurd amount of responsibility on 1 player.
main reason why i stopped playing
Yep, I've found every game hinges on if the tank player is decent or not. If you get a bad tank, good luck winning.
@@Spongemonkey26 Which isn't really fair to the tank player
@@Juniperberry9exactly, but you know they will never admit defeat and finally bring back 6v6 because then OW2 was literally pointless.
@@Spongemonkey26 So you mean the exact same thing that happened in OW1, but now there's only one chance for it instead of two?
this is quite literally the only time i've seen someone accurately explain the state of the game, much love, great vid
I think the largest reason tanks have to have the "sit back and shoot" playstyle is because the second they play aggressive they get antied and explode. I'm a gm4 tank and I literally don't even consider doing anything until that cooldown is out.
Even down here in master 2 if they have ana, I ain't going until I hear that sleep and anti gone, and try to do everything to bait it out. That's why I loved to play so much doom, before his punch nerf, is that he was arguably one of the best to bait those CDs out, he still is but it's just harder to capitalize on that with his shorter stuns
Yeppp exactly I’m masters 1 on tank and I basically always wait for cooldowns
I think that’s simply a 5v5 problem. As strong as anti nade was in ow1, if a tank got naded it wasn’t a big deal since your other tank can cover for you. Nade was a very skillful ability since it was far more effective against squishies (still is, but nading tank is a bigger play in 5v5 than 6v6.) this goes for most if not all abilities that screw over the tank role.
@@cooldiego7 just gets a bit annoying when you are baiting sleep, hook, shield bash, hinder every fight 🥲
@@davidhume2011 Except nade was on a far lower CD, lasted longer, damage was even higher than the colossal number we currently have, a second tank was there to CC or flank an anti'd target or enable a DPS flank, and it was easier to pressure Supports and force out their cooldowns. Ana was the #3 Support for the last two years of OW1 because, while she didn't have the survivability of Bap or Brig, she had two abilities that each led to someone getting deleted a fair bit of the time. Part of what made Bap hard meta for so many seasons, across so many balance patches, was that he was the only consistent answer to anti from the Support lineup.
This is so accurate, it kinda comes down to "why would I do this, when I can just do that with the same effectiveness and half the effort" for ex, why play tracer and sweat ur ass off to get 1 shot by half the cast, when u can just play sojourn and do the oneshotting...
Very true, I used to main tracer a lot but nowadays it’s just pointless to play her
Exactly, why spend hours learning to play tracer, doom, genji etc, when you can just pick up a low effort character and bring more value.
I didn't touch Overwatch "2" since February, Sojourn can still slide across the entire globe and one shot you from Australia ? 💀
@@vivelespatat2670 technically her rail only does 195 damage on headshot nowadays but one primary fire bullet is not a hard thing to land. And her slide cd is still very short and launches her miles away yeah.
@@renecepeda3144she was hard meta not even 2 seasons ago
I totally agree with you, I think OW2 should incentivise players to actually engage in gameplay with high calculated risk, high reward situations more often to actually make players feel like they can express their skill beyond just shooting from far away
Yep this is how league keeps you coming back
High risk just means 50% of the time you are flamed for throwing. You have to play safe choices or your team is toxic.
@@linusgustafsson2629 The point is to create those "rare high moments" as Robin Walker once said, where one player goes on a tear and plows through the enemy. You have to balance the risk with the reward. OW2 fails by giving too weak of a reward so the safe (and therefore boring) options are better.
Mauga has caused me to drop ranks. If you don’t have Mauga on your team and your team doesn’t focus him at the start of the fight you’re bound to lose
So friggin tru
The thing is Mauga is almost unkill able (unless they have no idea how his kit works) everytime I get in a game I just see a mercy pocketing him and than we finally kill him and he’s back alive. It doesn’t help if your team isn’t working as a group. Honestly I wish they lowered his health or made his abilities more punishable like mercy’s Rez and Baptiste, no death ability, where you have to be more conscious of when and where you can use it.
Enemy Mauga always has a pocket and when I pick Mauga the supports ghost me 🫥
@@SHYLUMINEIf the enemy team is even a little coordinated and pockets Mauga it’s over. Braindead boring to play as and against.
Sounds like the game is pay to win 🙂
Newer heroes seem to be designed in a way where their weaknesses are seemingly obscure. What’s baptiste’s weakness? His long cooldowns! But, he has vertical mobility, insane damage and healing output on top of being able to use those cooldowns for himself. He doesn’t need those cooldowns to actually be able to live because his standard weapon is overtuned.
Kiriko has two super strong cooldowns as well, and when consumed can leave her vulnerable. But what prevents her from dying so much? Obviously Suzu, but she also has vertical mobility excluding tp, high damage and a stupid skrunkly hitbox!
Im not gonna say immortality isn’t an issue, but what im gonna say is their standard weapons and passives are tuned to the level of their cooldowns where they can survive just as fine as if they needed to make a choice to live
Or it could be mix of both.
While I do agree with you, most supports inability to provide CC limits their strength against dive dps/tanks a lot. Supports have always been the primary focus of the enemy since OW1, and I think a fair gameplay mechanic is that flank/dive dps should be forcing supports to make a choice on using their utility on the 1v1 fight or for the team. I think ana has always been a good example of this, with strong personal defensive tools that can also be used offensively when not under pressure. I agree with the video that flank/dive dps should be in a stronger state to better challenge supports and that long range low risk dps should be weaker to incentivize risk. Widow and ashe are fine, but hanzo atleast at low/mid rankings and in more casual qp (which yes, i get the game is balanced for high level play but a lot of the fanbase just plays casually, myself included after hitting diamond when I actually grinded this game) is the embodiment of this long ranged low risk playstyle. A character that can one shot you off spam from half the map away, and is good at all ranges is BS.
A good support should have the tools and ability to hold their own against divers if they have the skill to win the fight, which should be what overwatch is all about, skill expression. If they didn't, then there'd be no real reason to que support as every game you would be getting farmed by everything and have little impact.
The game was designed to be played 6v6. Trough out the years the game was balanced based on playing 6v6. They changed few legends made it a 5v5 game and demolished years of twitching and tweaking. If ow 1 was still alive no one would be playing ow2 ,that's why the shut the game down so they won't be forced to reflect on their mistake
it's far less tin foil hat territory than you're making it to be. OW1 doesn't exist anymore because it's stupid to keep two (2?) live service games that share the same playerbase online at the same time. it isn't cost effective.
The game was designed to be an open queue, no limits dogpile. Quit coping that 5v5 is some irrational change when 6v6 was fucking dogshit for everybody below mid-Masters.
@@dashieldmasta177hes right. OW was a happier place with 6v6. I bet everyone enjoyed OW1 more than 2 just because of that aspect. I feel like the problem with OW1 is that the developers dont know how to balance the game and would give characters unnecessary balance changes no one asked for
@@dashieldmasta177i bet you some of the stress would be lifted off tank players if it was another role that can help it
@@dashieldmasta177 Only reason 6v6 was bad is because they didn't bother to put any resources into balancing the game. It took a "brand new" game just for rein to be able to cancel charge, ofc people will get sick of playing tanks and ofc the numbers will dwindle. But instead of balancing the role they cut it in half to decrease queue times with 5v5 and made balancing an even bigger nightmare just for no one to feel satisfied playing tank anyway.
I think 6v6 would solve a few of the issues listed. A second tank to take the pressure off the main one, who can then be the one to go offensive while the main tank holds the line, that would allow for a good mix of play styles
Yeah I feel like they have just been wasting time and effort trying to make 5v5 work but it just… doesn’t. They will probably never go back on that though because it’s the only remaining selling point to why OW2 even exists now that they killed PVE.
this is why i loved 6v6 as tank. i can either defend or attack depending on what the other tank is doing. made the gameplay way more fun for everybody in a match, at least in my matches. being risky as a tank is impossible in ow2.
Not arguing with you but I do want to say Mauga is still a horrible hero design even in 6v6. Like shooting shooting shooting and even more shooting to gain health? That’s boring and bland and I would hope we get more intricate designs like Ball
@@damianvaldez9390agreed. Mauga’s kit is so 1 dimensional just spray and charge and you’ll most likely never die. I would’ve loved for him to have a flame thrower as the second gun
@@anthonymercado8126 or they should target problematic heroes and fix the format we’re in now.
I think doomfist is the perfect example for this. Im maining him and if you want to be really good with doom, you have to only play him. But it feels like i get mid value with 500 hours on him, tracking cooldowns etc while a 10 hours sigma can do the same/more
I main ball... I want to die most of the time, but it's so addicting when you get a team that are able to focus with their tank, taking time to settup before destroying the backline/isolated targets.
I think Ball and Doom share the trait that they are both so unique and take so long to master as every decision can be difference between winning the team fight or leaving your teammates without a tank unlike Orisa and Mauga for example who can make tons of bad plays and get away without it
I main doom and he is best suited for push and escort maps being the attacker. He can fly over buildings straight for objectives immediately making enemies turn around and for your team to push, so you can retreat to your team.
@jestnutz I have 2700 hours on doom currently, a lot of those from ow1, in ow2 there is actually no point in playing doom when you can play monkey or dva for dive with a lot more survivability...i love doom, i still main him, but man...but to be fair that is half the tank roster currently, why play rein when you can play ram? Rein can only rush and brawl...whereas ram is a poke character/rush/brawl...
@@Asynurr no way you are a woman
Doom meta is cancer so deserved
I think it's very problematic that Blizzard is afraid of nerfing anything for some reason, and instead focuses on crazy buffs (like what happened with Mauga). We're in this perpetual cycle of powercreep; Blizzard buffing damage instead of nerfing the overtuned defensive abilities.
I think damage across the board need to come down massively, especially with supports. The amount of one-shots and high-damage abilities is way too many. Then Blizzard can focus on reducing the power on the insane defensive abilities like Suzu and Lamp, which are sadly mandatory if you don't want to get instantly melted right now.
anti be like
😏 hey
whistle
Agreed, I don't want to imagine playing support rn if they nerfed defensive utility without addressing the damage in the game. Frankly I don't think i'd come back to overwatch again, i mostly enjoy support and without utility or the ability to attempt to duel close range dps there'd be no point to queing support. It already feels like you just get farmed if you misuse your utility, even in qp. I'm all for dive being stronger if they nerf characters like hanzo, sig, orisa. I'd prefer the stress of fighting off tracers and genji's to getting 1 tapped walking around a corner, or sig rocked+auto attack one shot while attempting to push up. At least losing to dive feels like you can outplay it if you improve yourself, where one shots (besides widow, I could respect widow as the single one shot character) or aoe damage from the other side of the fight doesn't.
@@mikeb1281 Yup. Every DPS duel is decided by either Kiriko now.
It's the launch Brig stun meta all over again.
Other way around, IMO. Reduce defensive utility, THEN adjust damage accordingly. If you reduce damage first, then for 1 season you will have games where LITERALLY no one can die. The problem is, like he said, an issue with defensive utility being way too strong on heroes that can already do so much.
I do agree on the "especially supports part" though. RN most Supports have the defensive utility and damage output to reliably duel most of the cast. I can play Sombra, Hack, Virus, and gun down a Kiriko, and she can GAIN HP from using Suzu before either teleporting away or just 2 tapping me in a fraction of the time it takes me to cast abilities. Supports whined about "playing Dead by Daylight" when they were being hunted extremely easily by DPS and Tanks early on, and Blizz has since decided that Support players MUST be transformed into unkillable gods of destruction in order to have fun.
Mauga hitting ranked was the nail in the coffin for me. I couldn’t believe that in this state in the game they made ANOTHER (Hog and Orisa) shieldless huge blob with low mobility. And they gave him tank killing damage😬
the fact that mauga cant be slept or stunned while charging says enough...
Yep,
Rein charge is cancelled by Orissa spear or can be pushed around using brig whip shot or cancelled by Sombra or the enemy is pulled by lifeweaver or made invincible by kiriko
But mauga is unaffected by nearly all of those
i think the devs said rein is in a good spot right now...i dont know if they even play their own game...@@technounionrepresentative4274
I remember back in the original, there was a listing of the healers and how they survive.
Mercy can fly away. Lucio can boop and wall run. Anna can sleep. Zenyatta kills or is killed.
I feel like the more passive supports do have a place in the game for people who prefer that gameplan but their preformance should be bottlenecked in exchange for their reliability. Like supports who take more risks should be rewarded greater in relation to the risk and the more passive supports should have a lesser potency in exchange for their consistency
Give Mercy a skillshot
@@dashieldmasta177 make pistol kills drop medkits :)
@@arthuruiugamesbr9777 I've actually seen some people talk about giving Mercy a revamped version of LW's old passive, where she could place down a small health pack to give her DPS a manual fallback option.
I feel like mercy rez and her movement need to die. The movement makes her too reliable, and she always gets the rez off (mostly because she builds ult instantly)
How about giver her an ability like renata from League of legends. A conditional rez that ONLY WORKS if your target plays aggressive and get an elim. And for the movement, total rework.
@@jeffreychandler8418i honestly think people just like to complain about mercy. there are supports who are way more impactful and annoying. i don’t mine changing rez because it makes mercy weak since she has to wait for something to go wrong to use an ability. however mercy has her movement because she physically cannot fight back like other heroes
As a Ramattra enjoyer, I would've been fine if they designed his entire gameplay around his "Omnic/Mage" form and made Nemesis into his ult. I could see it working if they changed a few things here and there.
That could work in 6v6, but in the 5v5 abomination not so much
I think a key balance goal at the start of OW2 was to make support easier to play and harder to punish. They did a great job and we are certainly feeling the effects rn.
I assume the hero design team must have seen some considerable personnel changes (i have no idea if this is true) because the quality of hero design feels like it fell off a cliff after Soj/Kiri/JQ. The new DPS they previewed doesn't look much better to me either. Kinda sad really.
I’m actually kinda liking the new dps, she seems like a dive dps w her projectile and her burrow
Geoff Goodman, the previous lead hero designer did get fired just a month before Kiriko was launched and replaced with Alec Dawson in September 2022 so yeah it's definitely true there's been a large shakeup at the personnel level
I think they needed a bit more survivability, but it's beyond the joke now. I play in a group where there's maybe 12+ players who dip in and out, and it's really common to see both support spots locked regardless of what our 5 stack is made of. People prefer playing support compared to DPS, and only a handful want to play tank. Support is now the comfort pick. Support is _too_ comfortable, too hardy and too versatile. They need to claw back some of these buffs and design changes.
@@defragsbinit’s genuinely inane because support was never even that bad. but now we live in a world where brig presses Q and instantly gets like 100-200 armour and a 700 HP shield, bap has three health pools, kiri heals over half her HP with one suzu AND becomes immortal AND cleanses everything in the game. I don’t understand how the balance team thinks this shit is okay😭🙏
@@heyheyhello3733 yeah, I honestly don't get it. There have been stretches when the dev team has really struggled with balancing hero simplicity/effectiveness against mechanical requirements, but the latest round of bad design just feels like a complete lack of imagination.
I've only started playing Overwatch in the past couple weeks, and it's been rough. I'm absolutely a tank player, and I really want to get good at JQ, but it's just so frustrating when it feels like my enemy just has to hold M1 to get kills and sustain, but for me it feels like I need to play around my cooldowns and the environment in order to do half as well. I know that part of this is that I'm new and I suck, but it also really doesn't feel like the enemy Mauga needs to play well to get more kills and more healing than me. Also I really don't like the attitudes around swapping to counter people, it's frustrating when my own team shames me for sticking with something suboptimal... though once again I do kinda suck ;-;
Imagine being a doomfist main while this shit is happening. . . *cries in impotent punch*
As a masters rein 1 trick who was often told to swap: just say fuck it and disable voice. People always default to blaming tank. 90% of comms is just people flaming each other. Learn to play into your counters and focus on improving
@@doedelzak3914 Okay, thank you so much. I do just feel bad when it feels like I'm losing the team a game tho :(
No i totally feel you, today i was playing JQ against a Hog and it was crazy how much shit i needed to pull off to heal while the Hog just needed to press one button to be back to full (with extra defense btw) tho i do understand hog's hitbox is way larger
I feel like this "low risk, high reward" approach theyre going for is going to kill the game
@@gloomily2388 As a tank player you do need a bit of an ego to enjoy the role, because of how much power you got and are often the default blame target for teammates. But all your teammates could've played better or swap themselves if they wanted to win. As long as you try your best to win you shouldn't feel bad for your teammates.
As a Bastion main, I agree and it's actually the dumbest reason for why he has no risk. It's his passive and tank mode passive making him have 50% damage reduction. It's ridiculously insane how stupidly powerful he is even with that chunk of armor. I saw a good Bastion update concept recently where someone said to give him a quick armor patch button and remove the reduction and replace some health with armor so he's less tanky and has a risk reward system instead of just sitting in the back gunning.
The real problem with Overwatch Hero design is Overwatch's *overall* design. Tanks, Healers, Shields, and Ultimates. Any individual problem with a specific hero must be understood within the team context of the game's most critical mechanic: The Ult economy. The reason sit back and shoot is the preferred strategy is nobody is trying to score picks, they're just farming for ult charge. Why are they farming for ult charge? Because tanks and healers and shields make the prospect of getting picks without expending an ult incredibly small, where the likelihood of feeding the enemy team ult charge is incredibly high.
For quite literally everyone hating on Mercy; her biggest issue is damage boost. NOT her movement as it is quite literally her identity. Rez is debatable, vut it has the longest non-ultimate cooldown and is very easy to deny (5 meter boop. Lucio can stop it, let alone anyone besides winston with a boop). Delete DB then we'll see.
Lifeweaver main here, I just need to say; ... What? Lifeweaver's thorns are an excellent source of damage that can even easily win 1v1's with decent headshot accuracy, not to mention he can EAT through shields and can pressure the enemy's supports by consistently shooting in the backline. A Lifeweaver who isn't shooting his thorns clearly has no idea how to play him.
I feel that the reason the support roster seemingly never gets nerfed is because the devs are scared to nerf the extremely powerful defensive abilities which are most prevalent on supports, even the universal support passive that people have been wanting to be removed for a while now due to it encouraging overly safe gameplay isn’t touched at all and only slight tweaks such as 1 second longer Suzu cd. The only major nerf on the support roster that I can remember is Zenyatta’s discord, an offensive ability.
Supports need the defensive abilities, because literally everyone and their mother focuses them into the dirt. Without their defensive abilities, there would be no reason to even have the supports in the game, because they'd just be erased immediately. Good teams can already erase supports in a second, even with their defensive abilities. It's like saying "Take rein's shield away, it gives him too much survivability!" He wouldn't be at all viable without it.
And good supports can survive pushes from good teams. Yes supports do need defensive utility, but that doesn’t mean they need 3 get out of jail free cards with no real drawbacks. Bap, Kiri, and even Illari all have crazy survivability while still having amazing utility, healing, and damage output. There has to be give and take.
@@pale_hispanic2429 Bap is definitely one of the more ridiculous ones. I feel he's worse than Illari. Kiri is also one of the worst offenders. But I feel there are fairly overtuned heroes in every role, not just support.
@@SkiesTurnedGrey Gonna act like the rest of your team doesn't exist? Good teams prevent or punish supports from being erased
@@EvictJr I suppose that's the problem with solo queue. Often tanks get tunnel vision and forget they have a team behind them, without whom they would crumble.
Moving from 6v6 to 5v5 was a terrible mistake, all heros released in ow2 has been Jack-of-all-trade
This is why i also believe that qp has offered a far more enjoyable experience than comp. There is greater potential for more unique 1v1 interactions as defensive utilities aren’t stacked as often or coordinated as well to keep the enemy team alive. Besting your role equivalent shouldnt be so centered around the cooldowns of suzu, anti, grip, lamp, self heal etc..
The reason its like this, is because its 5v5 btw. Why risk running into an entire enemy team as genji or tracer, where you can immediately die and get no value, when you can poke from range? If it was 6v6, then yes, your actual value would be a little less, but in 6v6, if the genji dies, no one really minds, and genjis back before you know it. In 5v5, if your genji dies, then you've essentially lost the teamfight. No damage from your side. You've lost one huge chunk from your team comp, etc etc. 5v5 isnt like inherently bad, but it actually limits a lot of design space (Which is why you get heroes/tanks like mauga that MUST sustain themselves to be effective as the ONLY tank), and it makes people play more passively, since like you said, individual play is more pronounced. If you underperform, or god forbid, DIE, then you've essentially lost the teamfight/round/whatever for your team, hell, your first death couldve lost you the entire game. And this simply wasnt the case in 6v6 where teams have a much bigger buffer. in 5v5, individual play is pronounced, in 6v6 team play is pronounced. Which to some, is much better and more important and healthier for a game that's you know, all about team play. In 5v5, why risk playing genji when you can play safe? In 6v6 its the opposite, why play safe? Play risky, if the risk pays off, you get big rewards. That simply isnt the case in 5v5 since one long range pick from a widow or sojourn can just win you the fight.
This is actually why a lot of early heros/hero concepts/hero designs from ow1 no longer play as well or make as much sense to play in the current ow. In 6v6, there was a "defensive buffer" to play heroes like genji and tracer, since there were more big threats on your side that was taking up enemy attention. Since theres no such thing anymore, it makes it tougher to play heroes like that/ design heroes like that, since they dont have that "defensive buffer" anymore. Also, in general, I think Ana herself limits design space, thats the issue with her. Though, I think anti-heal is kinda a necessary thing for the game, its just the way its used rn is very silly as its essentially just an "anti enemy-tank" button on cooldown, rather than what its supposed to be used for -healing your team, giving your team a healing buff, or just anti-healing some annoying enemy. Now its just the "Anti tank" button you press on cooldown, which is very annoying for the enemy tank. -Another casualty from the transition to 5v5, since before if one tank got antied, no big deal, just hide and wait it out behind your other tank, or cleanse it with your ally zarya's bubble, or some such, but since theres no tank on tank interplay anymore, that doesn't exist and you just kinda feel like a sitting duck as a tank now in ow2.
In other words supports are too hard to take out, they can do way too much damage and have far too many ways to get out of trouble. So there’s no downside to just sitting behind their tank (who they are still managing to over heal) and poking you to death from range and deleting you if you get close.
TF2 doesn't have game-wide balance issues. Nevermind swathes of classes being just unplayed. Maybe Cooldowns: The Game wasn't the best approach
Well put. I think its a funny side effect that flex supports are so safe now that there is no need for a traditional "main support" like Lucio or brig most of the time. OW2 started out with a lucio in ever comp and ana brig is good but... why brig for your ana when Illari pylon exists?
Because Brig has two CCs that shut off flanks, excellent eHP in her shield and armor, a self-heal that can't be broken, faster healing that isn't position dependent in Pack, a better ult, and a better matchup against Sojourn.
And when the hell has Lucio EVER not been a flex Support?
@@dashieldmasta177 u were absolutely right until you mentioned lucio being a flex support, he's a main support along with brig mercy and lifeweaver. the terms are weird because they were solidified back in 2016 when pro teams were just starting out and role lock wasn't in the game and Lucio was permapicked, so whoever was playing him was the "main" support player on your team and would never swap off support, whereas the flex support player would sometimes play other roles in specific circumstances like Roadhog or Soldier, etc.
Because of this the flex support players generally were the more mechanically capable players of the two so they were the ones to learn heroes like Ana, Baptiste, Kiriko, and Illari when they came out, though nowadays there are a few main support players like CH0R0NG who are good enough mechanically to play aim-intensive heroes like Kiriko at the OWL level.
Illari is pretty bad with Ana, it's more Kiriko that is playable with Ana - Illari has only been run at the top level with Bap successfully but since her nerfs she has seen a massive dropoff in coodinated play and a pretty major winrate hit in ranked across all ranks.
Honestly both Lucio and Brig have been extremely good since OW2 started (at the OWL level). Lucio is still mandatory for any Rush comps including even the Sig/Bastion brawl that was meta during OWWC during Blizzcon this year, and Brig has been pretty underrated throughout OW2 because she is really good especially post-ult rework with Ana and Bap with a more effective anti-engage boop than Lucio, and crucially extremely good long range pocket healing with her burst healing packs
@@dashieldmasta177i don't think there's an argument for Lucio to be a flex supp man
Did…..did he just say brig is a main healer? Oh god….. I think I’m going to puke. So this is what the person in my lobby picking brig Lucio, getting outhealed by over 6k every game is thinking in their dumb*** heads.
Blizzard try not to overbuff or overnerf characters as a reaction to their previous overbuff & overnerf
Thats why Winton, Genji and Anna are so fun to play. Because their playstyle is so different from the typical "sit back and shoot"
It's not that they don't know how to balance the game. They purposely make him op and unbalanced so they can sell the battle pass. They definitely know what they're doing
I'm hoping that most of the decision makers on this developer team get moved on after the Microsoft deal goes through fully. Aaron Keller, Jared Neuss, Alec Dawson - these guys have been making awful decisions and taking the game in a terrible direction since season 3.
Let's not pretend day 1 Brigitte never existed. This IP is struggling with awful design decisions since forever, Overwatch lost 90% of their playerbase for a reason, Blizzard claimed this game sold 50 million copies, I highly doubt there's even 5 million active players left, 1 million is already a wild guess. The direction of this series was a disaster, Overwatch had to potential to be bigger than League of Legends
no wonder the game feels absolutely horrendous rn, like your gonna nerf genji from season 1, keep tracer in her current state and buff anything that is played safely. And somehow constantly just adding more healing or buffing healers in general. I understand that support players don't like it when theres a flanker on their ass constantly annoying them but that is literally why these heroes were made in the first place, if you want your role to be strong you will also have to face the fact that your counters are gonna have to be strong as well.
i never was a fan of heroes being buffed just to get nerfed. I really believe that if you buff a hero to be considered good or even meta to be fine, however instead of nerfing them back to being bad why don't they just indirectly nerf them by trying to buff other weaker compositions? because from all i see its like hey! hero is bad, lets buff! oh no statsics show hero too good?? stomp it in the ground. I think direct nerfs should only really be applied once the hero can suddenly beat its counter which would indicate that a hero is truly overpwered.
But that is just my opinion in the end (probably very controversial since people don't rly like facing genji and tracer for example)
it feels like theyve been making a lot of changes to ensure (nearly) every character can be played during any given time, instead of certain heroes having a niche situation that they work best at. i personally thought it was fine to have some characters built for specific situations or team comps. they had areas where they absolutely shine, but clear and distinct weakness/downfalls. old bastion/sym were a pain to deal with when set up, but catch them before they can bunker and it wasn't much of a problem, zen before he got his health increased and his kick had game altering abilities but little to no defensive capabilities when he was dove. it was about high risk, high reward gameplay. now everything is safe
6v6 kept everything in check. The devs are throwing everything they can at the wall to distract from this fact.
Another thing to consider is the support role passive which takes away from the fundamental overwatch design where heroes were forced to make decisions that were more interactive with the course of the game. For example take Ana, she could use her nade offensively but that would give a cue to an attentive enemy player that she would be ideal to dive as she would have no means of self healing for a short while. If Ana saved the nade for herself or for her team then she wouldn’t get value from the anti healing affect. It made the game more dynamic and interactive when supports had to make decisions like this. The support role passive kind of nullifies this principle as they aren’t forced to invest cooldowns into themselves as much anymore.
I've been an Ana one trick since her release and this definitely messed up a bit of her design. You never were SUPPOSED to nade yourself in theory, in a perfect world, but now with support self heal, I just literally never self nade in a close range duel where I can catch both of us with the effect. It literally makes her less interesting to play.
@@sarika3689 yeah and it’s sad because she is very well designed. The shift to 5v5 and the addition of support role passive makes her play style less complex, and less fun overall.
>the 200HP, zero armor, zero shield, zero overhealth hero with no movement abilities needs to be using one of their two cooldowns that are the only reason to play them for a mediocre self-heal
And this is why Support was extremely unfun in OW1. Everyone wants to kill you, and you have to pick between actually being able to do something about it and not exploding. You know what's uninteractive? When your abilities that let you interact with the game have to be constantly held back so you're not a free kill.
@@dashieldmasta177 and now tank and dps are unfun to play in ow2 because of support creep. Ana in ow1 could do well with good mechanics, ergo: game sense, aim, and positioning. Now supports are better duelists than a lot of the dps roster, and tanks can’t dive or create space on their mains without being counterpicked and are forced to play meta. Dps feels like a cosmetic role a lot of the time. Supports aren’t meant to be deathless and tanky, trade offs are not inherently a bad thing, and just because you were getting dived on over and over again by a bunch of dive heroes doesn’t mean Ana’s kit was bad, it just meant you were at a disadvantage. If anything the biggest annoyance about playing support in ow1 was an over reliance on the tank to make space and protect you from dive. If you got worse tanks than the enemy team it often felt like an uphill battle, so the removal of a tank automatically made support role more impactful and less helpless as you have 1 less tank to absorb cooldowns, make space, or dive you. So I don’t see the support role passive as being intrinsically needed, as supports have been designed with a lot more utility in ow2 than in ow1 already and already have more survivability due to the removal of a tank. Forcing supports to make decisions gives complexity to their gameplay. An ana in ow1 had to choose between saving nade for themselves defensively, healing allies, and applying Anti-heal affect and or sleeping someone. Ana in ow2 can now just get huge value by simply throwing their nade on the enemy tank on cooldown with no drawbacks. It lowers the skill floor and does nothing for the skill ceiling. Tanks were no different in ow1, take Winston for example. If Winston used his bubble for his team he would be unable to do a hard dive as he would be easily targeted by the enemy team without bubble. If he committed to a hard dive and the enemy team successfully counter pressured him or he didn’t get value from the dive then the support on his team would be forced to waste resources in order to keep him from dying, which would be a cue to the enemy team that the supports have less resources to deal with a dive or poke. There was an Ebb and flow to the game by this use of cooldowns and how players reacted to them. This is diminished when you have so many abilities that are get out of jail cards and safety nets from the support line up.
@@XTAKU. if tank and dps are unfun why does support have shortest queue times? Not even reading the rest of your shit because your first statement makes no sense.
I stopped caring about overwatch when it switched to 5v5. IDK why they thought simplifying a game where each character has less abilities than a 2d League of legends character was a good idea.
I do think people should be able to play what they want and win(regardless of it being qp or ranked). Just not every character needs to be top tier/competitively viable. As a support main, i do agree with the fact that Kiriko basically has no downsides. Although i feel like the only reason she exists is to counter cc/anti. I do think she needs to be retuned. Her kunais are fine though. We'd just have another bap or Ana, and i think she needs something different. Also Kiri does take more skill to hit shots. I dont think her damage is the problem, its the rest of her kit thats just unfun to play against
Id say at minimum every projectile needs damage dropoff
Kunai would be more than fine if you could hear them properly
sounds like a mercy main
kiri's kunais have a projectile radius of 0.18 whereas zen's orbs have a radius of 0.15, ana's unscoped shots have a radius of 0.1, illari left click has a radius of 0.005 (weird that she has a projectile making it easier to connect shots in the first place considering she's hitscan) and bap is just flat out hitscan so 0 projectile size. she absolutely has the easiest time hitting her primary fire of any high damage support, so those need to be reigned in considering her playstyle is to offangle with a DPS of hers and hitting just a couple headshots on a tank or dps can completely swing a teamfight in your favour.
Fam if you want every hero to be capable of winning regardless of situation, then you want every hero to be competitively viable lol
To me this conversation feels very similar to the conversation surrounding GOATS, where the game favours playing safe and defensive rather than offensive, and it hit me: we never really got rid of GOATS did we? All we did was force teams to have 2 DPS on the team, at no point did we address the fact that the game favours defensive play over offensive plays. As such, we see cases like these which feels like GOATS showing its ugly head but in a different form.
First of all, rly glad to have you back tikatee. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw you made a video after so long.
Second of all, I completely agree with your philosophy of balancing offensive and defensive utility in characters while also forcing players to make a choice between the two.
Crazy enough, I know of a game that I think does both of these perfectly. It's called exoprimal and it's incredibly underrated not because the game is fun (which it is) but because the hero (or exosuit) gameplay designs make every role feel so fun to play. This is best exemplified in their support line which only has 3 heroes but is so engaging even with little hero variety. Almost every single healing ability that a support has also has an offensive component to it: like a yin-yang. To give an example, Witch Doctor is the most common support who is like brigitte. For starters his main weapon is a close range taser that slows down enemies and has a resource meter that refills if you don't use the weapon for some time. One of his main healing tools is a close range, aimable stim shot that heals an ally on collision, but it can also be used offensively. Using this stim shot on an enemy will slow down the enemy and RECHARGE your taser's resource meter to its max, so I often found myself having to make a choice between healing my teammates with the stim shot or recharging my weapon by shooting at an enemy. The other 2 supports are even more rich in player choice and offensive/defensive balance which is crazy considering that Witch Doctor is considered more defensive even though he's constantly encouraged to recharge his offense off of the enemy. It's a shame that such good hero design got buried under a game nobody cares abt.
I binged like 50 hours of Exoprimal when it came out, that game is sick! If there was more PvP focus I would probably still be playing today!
From a pure gameplay side of thing, yes Exoprimal is a damn banger.
It just sucks being 50 hours in, and being put into the very first mission because one player who just started their journey gets matchmade with the nine others who have made it to “the good stuff”
The problem with OW2 hero balance is that, there is no balance.
They decided to chuck balance completely out the window when they released the first new hero in OW2 and it's just gone down-hill from there, with their seasonal and mid season balance updates.
I'm a tank main, yet when i'm playing, i don't feel like a tank whatsoever. I just feel like an ult builder for the enemy team. A bullet sponge. I sometimes say to myself, i may as well just stand afk and let them shoot and kill me, because it doesn't matter if i move or use defensive abilities as my defensive abilities will simply be nullified instantly, and my ult will be deleted instantly.
It's not just the newer heroes that are a problem, it's the changes they've made to older heroes as well, and when they leave out so many other heroes who also need to be reworked or buffed, then balance goes out the window completely.
When OW2 released, Every Single Hero was balanced towards 6v6, and most of them still ARE balanced towards 6v6.
With only one tank, you'd think they'd nerf the damage output on support, but nope. Instead they try to mitigate it by giving tanks more health/shields, but what the heck does that even do when they still have heroes like Ana with their anti nade, Zen with his discord orb (They even BUFFED his damage!) and last but not least all the immortality mechanics from both DPS and Support. When it was 6v6 it wasn't such a massive issue, but with just one tank to deal with all of that BS, it's just downright impossible to even enjoy the game, much less play at a competitive level when there's just one meta viable for any match.
So, the real problem is that the majority of heroes are still balanced around 6v6, tanks and support in particular, where tanks are now in a much weaker state since they don't have a 2nd tank to take some of the load off vs all these insane support abilities and their damage output across the board. The dev team simply don't know what balance means. They want to add heroes to the BP in a broken state so that people flock to the shop to get a BP so they can play the latest broken hero they've released.
The solution to all of this is to lower the damage output on support, increase the cooldowns on major utility abilities such as anti nade, suzu, lamp etc, because that's where the real problem lies. They don't need to buff tanks or damage heroes. They need to make sure that support isn't stronger than DPS and Tanks. They need to make sure that Tanks can actually survive the process of creating space, because creating space right now is a nightmare as a tank. You push your W only to end up being insta killed in most cases after getting anti naded, discord orbed, the enemy Bap throwing down a lamp and window and solo kill you or the Illari who just boops you around and three taps you on a charged rifle.
Either that, or they need to get their heads out of their rear ends and re-instate 6v6, since the majority of heroes are already balanced around it..
Good video. I think you put into words how I feel the game is at.
It doesnt feel like there is a lot of insentive to take risks and do dives most of time now, when you can often just be effective playing it safe at a distance. Especially if that risk doesnt pay off you will likely be hurting your team being a person down.
I am not sure how to fix it, but I think I agree that some more dive characters that are well thought out and balanced is a good start.
Hard pill to swallow: This game will never be balanced or fun for people who play the Tank role, because of the format they created, as other people said, the game and some heroes were designed for 6v6.
As for the issues that 6v6 had, like double shields, they could be easily fixed by balancing, but the devs chose not to, because of the development of the dumpster fire that is Overwatch 2.
The devs will keep trying to fix things, but in the end it's just a band-aid and problems will remain, since the 5v5 is a flawed mode and they'll will never go back to 6v6, because it's admitting this game was a failure from the start.
This sounds like you want more prediction/outplay potential from all sides which I would agree with. An ability should have counters/ways to outplay it. There are some abilities in the game right now that have so much impact (and are kinda simple for the amount of impact) that holding them for the perfect opportunity trumps any use of that ability to outplay an opponent.
A good example is zarya ult vs genjis deflect or baps immortality. The risk vs reward for Genji is comparable whereas the risk is very low comparably to the reward on baps end. Same goes for Illari ult vs genji deflect or kiriko suzu. Ana sleep I think is a pretty good sweet spot in most instances, but disproportionally hurts heroes like Ball or Doom because their kits want them to dive but diving against ana is just giving up agency. You rely on the ana to play poorly rather than outplaying the ana in any way.
Although I don't entirely agree with the video, I welcome more discussion and opinions of people who love Overwatch so keep em coming !!
If they keep "reworking" Sombra, then we all know the game becomes even more unbalanced. People like Fitzyhere want to believe us she is not OP and the reworks still come with some "nerfs". Thats bullshit.
They should either nerf her damn weapon or her hack.
Why the heck does such a tiny ass SMG have so many rounds, such high accuracy (no recoil?!) and a high damage output?
Going to 5v5 wasn’t wrong objectively but the fundamental asymmetry of any situation where the tank isn’t fighting the other tank makes it nearly impossible for structured fights to be the default when engagement initiating tanks like Rein, Winston, etc. are viable. I think that’s why they have basically incentivized trench warfare. It’s to slow down and stabilize the game ostensibly to make it more casual/new player friendly. The thing is, they just made it suck for everyone.
And to make a 8 years old game more "friendly" for novices, that's a stupid concept by itself. The new players have plenty of options, there's so many "competitive online" games of multiple genres. The only people who are still around, that is the old players from the 6v6 era. Overwatch not only competes with first person shooters (even Halo is also zombified), but they also compete with moba games, lol so good luck with that, trying to attract the new and losing the old, this game reportedly sold 50 million copies somehow, nowadays if Overwatch have 500k active players... let's say 1 million just to be gentle, that is already a wild guess. From 50 million to 1 million, it's a disaster, had potential to be one of the biggest IPs in the industry, producing spin-offs, animations, toys, etc.. like League of Legends is doing in recent years. But look at the actual results
I'm a Support player(have been since Christmas of 2016) and one thing that has me tired is constantly having to go Kiriko or Ana. I'm not even a high ranking player, Im in Plat, but it feels like every game is either me or my cosupport going Ana, Kiriko, or both because either the enemy tank is destroying ours, or the enemy Ana is constantly nading our Tank. I genuinely dont mind playing anytihng other than Mercy and Moira(hell, I mained them for most of my time as a OW player, it's time to branch out and take a break) but it genuinely feels like I traded them for Ana and Kiriko and I dont truly have the choice to play other heroes unless I feel like gambling on how good me and my team can play around not having them.
Even my DPS games tend to be dictated by the presence of Ana and Kiriko. We gotta worry about how good the Ana is and if anyone on the team will swap to counter her, or(since I play mostly flankers) we gotta worry about the enemy Kiriko popping off and the threat of getting two tapped via 1 or 2 headshots if we try to check her or the other support. I wont say the game is unplayable, but it's honestly getting stale.
I would debate Doomfist and Brig are also forced to sitback and shoot to some extent due to nerfs or changes to the kit itself.
Doomfist with being put into tank and nerf his damage to turn him into Doomprimaryfire (yes, this is what some Doom mains and memers call the character from time to time). Of course, this does not stop those who perfected Doomfist's techs that enable him to be more fun despite damage nerfs.
Brig with her "optimal" gameplay being evasive and holding a position either whipping an enemy or using a repair pack while the shieldbash is only used to disengage and escape. Sometimes, it is literally just only sending repair packs. As for most of Brig players including myself, that is boring af.
But brig has always been a defensive character it’s why the only times you feel like you’re doing something is when you’re playing against dive because that’s when her her whole kit shines
@@m4hiiro Yet, that is not how I play her most of the time as I often find it overall boring if in a position too long and just start roaming around neutral/team territory and doing other things, mosting checking for flankers or hunting sombras (so far my most favorite thing to do aside being a flanker brig on the right maps). Don't get me wrong, getting that whip that can deny an enemy hero diving unto your other support is satisfying, but usually never comes.
How the hell are the only tank in the game with multiple escapes and the Support with 500 eHP forced to sit back? Doom and Brig are both pretty good right now. All Supports are viable, and Ball is the only bad tank in the game. Once Mauga nerfs (and hopefully a small Ram nerf, not a lot, but maybe take a little bit of armor away) hit in the midseason patch, things will level out a lot.
@@dashieldmasta177 Honestly, no real clue, but I do know people who do spam and shoot kill stuff stupidly fast with their to where even with all the mobility in the world. Even trying to do anything that may be interaction like whipshoting an enemy becomes a possible instadeath even if the enemy don't have a widow or hanzo. Doesn't help that the OW2 I play is console version, where Dive feels incrediblely sluggish unless it is ball, winston, or rarely genji (I think Console is the reason genji gets nerfed from time to time).
"Overwatch is not balanced" I mean OW2 is a raging dumpster fire and IDKY we continue to support it.
Seems kind of delusional to say that we need more supports like Ana, when she's one of the biggest issues in the game atm, with defensive utility so strong that diving her is generally a death sentence. The biggest roadblock to dive is the fear of being anti'd or slept, because if either hits you during your dive, you basically lose the 1v1 in melee range vs a sniper.
You're insane if you think that Ana's defensive utility (especially landing a sleep dart on a diver) is the same as a Lifeweaver petal, a Baptiste drone/burst, or an Ilari who places her turret in a position you can't hit.
At least with Ana, you can dodge her sleep dart her or force her to use her grenade on herself. Meanwhile, Baptiste has 3 health bars, Ilari can effectively duel with her damage, and Lifeweaver just ignores you if he puts his petal down. You can't even chase him after since you used you mobility cooldown to get close (that's even IF you have a way to vertically get to him anyway).
@@abdi7633 Ana makes killing a tank so easy if they don't have a Kiriko.
No one talks about how difficult it is to hit some characters. The strange speed in this game makes it really hard to have good tracking on thinner characters. I think across the board characters should strafe slower depending on the type of character. Tanks the slowest. Dps and healers the fastest.
We only saw a bit of footage, but the next dps hero seems like a step in the right direction. Very low range primary fire, dash that impales enemies with the drill, can drill underground to escape but it also does a damaging jump upon exiting so it can be used offensively
I actually don't agree, as the new DPS doesn't look like they would be good and they also seem to be more of a brawl hero. But the next support hero looks really promising and I'm just waiting until she gets released so we hopefully get a more prevalent dive meta
underground drill= worse wraith form because ur team can't heal/target you with shields/abilities as ur retreating/engaging because ur underground. dash= worse teleport/tracer blink because no i-frames and short range. the only way the new hero is gonna be good is an amazing ultimate or very strong gun.
Disagree entirely. Drill Rush is gonna be her engage tool, Burrow is the disengage tool. Using it offensively would be like using Translocator offensively. It CAN work out in your favor, but most of the time it'll just get you caught out with no escape.
"Sit back and shoot". Yay... It's the same as when double barrier was a thing....
Yeah but you also had crazy tank synergies to alleviate that
@@EvictJr& shitty tank synergy let's not forget that
The problem with this game is supports they ruined ow1 and they are ruining ow2. Notice how the game in ow1 every one ran double shields or goats meta because of Brigit or baptise two tanks was never an issue. This game same problem too much sustain to make things even worth it. Maug for example what makes him so broken is he has incredible sustain but what makes him busted in lower ranks to mid ranks are the damn supports. Get anti nade? Kiriko cleanses you. About to die drop immortality field. Need AOE healing? Choose any damn supports who not only heal a ton but have get out of jail free card with insane Ults kiriko looking at you. I’ve had games where in maug fighting another maug and it literally comes down to what support messes up first. Annoying arse gameplay man…
I still feel like it's 5v5 that's completely mangled the balance and fun of playing tanks in ow2. I'm not a good player by any means (gold/plat in ow1, climbed to masters in ow2 without even trying because of how braindead easy the gameplay is), but I know what's fun and what isn't. I used to play tank almost exclusively, I could run in and do fun stuff or come up with funny strats with my tank duo, but since the release of ow2 I've played less and less tank to the point where I haven't even touched the role in months. It's just not fun to sit there and take all the shots and as soon as I try to do anything other than that, I'm running the risk of my team getting bulldozed and the enemy team dumping all their cooldowns into me at once.
I’d have loved more characters who have to do X to do Y like how Moira needs to do some damage to get her heal juice, like make illaris heal pylon tied to her dealing damage so that way your passive existence isn’t doing more than someone like Anna
I've seen suggestions that Illari should have to charge up her pylon with her altfire, like pouring gas back in it. Lets it stay as a useful tool for pushing, but denies AFK value by making her have to dump resources into it midfight.
@@dashieldmasta177 That's a really good idea!
I was nodding my head along to pretty much every point you brought up here. As someone who really enjoys the more "ride the line" kinds of heros like winston, genji, lucio, etc., the game just feels so punishing to play compared to safe options like bap or soj. I think what you were saying that backlines are too safe means that teams can run really greedy backlines such as lifeweaver illari and not have to worry like they did in OW1. I don't know if this is something the devs want to fix but until they do my enjoyment of this game overall is definitely souring over time.
@Tikatee I agree with your assessment, and would like to add: The devs also got rid of the maps that would punish you for sit-back and shoot playstyles, such as the 2CP maps. These were maps where, in order to get past the defense, you HAD to know how to go in and get aggressive. The Offense team that just had tanks that stood at choke always lost.
Bring back 2CP, and watch Overwatch crumble under the weight of its current balance philosophy.
I agree. I don't know why they got rid of 2CP to begin with. People whining, of course.
every new hero feels like a pve/story mode char, rather than pvp
The problem is them spending all their time creating new game modes just to double our average time in QP to nerf xp so people buy battlepass levels. If flashpoint is in qp, why is not best of 3 instead of 5?… How about the new seasonal event where even if you buy the ticket pass there isn’t enough tickets to buy all the skins let alone everything 😂. All their energy goes in to selling trash and nothing to do with player experience. COD and Overwatch the same trash, Microsoft robbed us of decent creators and content
Hanzo is the biggest sit back and shoot all he does is shoot and hope that he hits a headshot and if he gets pushed he just needs to use his scatter arrows and his leap
They really should have just kept 6v6 if the power creep was going to be this high
Nothing feels worse than being stuck because solider is raining down on your team while no one wants to be aggressive enough to dive him
I remember back in OW1 Mei was my favorite because of how you would run up to the enemy team with purpose and freeze the most important person, but in OW2 she's just another dps who sits back and shoots.
Freezing mechanic was obnoxious after being frozen sitting there waiting for rmb headshot. It did give her some flavour and personality though I’ll agree with that
I'm a Sombra player, and a lot of this makes sense and her rework kind of put her more in the sit back and shoot archetype you mentioned, just, aggressively? Her talents are annoying to other players, sure, but her whole kit had choice before the reworks for OW2. Invis was good for escapes or aggressive positioning. Hack could be used to stop an enemy from wrecking your team, or it could be used to make an opening. Translocator could be used lazily to run away to the other side of the map, but, it could be used to keep an aggressive and advantageous position.
Now, hack is still good, but i's really only used to interrupt since it's so short. Invis is still both, but you don't have agency on when you use it the same way. Translocator is just movement now, you use it to get in quicker, and then run when it's more than a 1v1. Virus is purely offensive, there's no flexibility in it, other than when should you use it against Kiriko, before or after a cleanse.
I know she's not a beloved hero by most of the community, but I think she shows that unique utility that makes impacts often is disliked by the community. It even happened to Ana eventually.
I prefer the OW1 Sombra version. I don’t mind the low dmg and huge weapon spread, but the hack duration was longer. It gave her a unique role of being a pure “ability disabler”. Now it feels like she’s just another Tracer 😅
@@xxxtreme2002 me too! That's why I liked her, I'm a support player in my heart, and it was nice to be able to do some damagey, utility type support as a DPS. Ya know, set up your other dps and tanks for something awesome. Now she's just Tracer with more steps for kills. But! Can shut down ults. So it's like, she's less unique, but still annoying, which is less good for everyone
Someone finally put it into words well, I was struggling to explain it quickly myself.
For me it's Ana's kit that is least fun to play against. They removed DPS passive but kept it on supports. At the moment, supports are better DPS than DPS.
Hmm interesting take
There are just too many heroes for the game to be fun. You're constantly forced to do something you don't want to do. Swapping never feels good. I always feel like I was forced to swap and that always feels like losing. Even if we win. I felt like I got out of the way by swapping and it allowed everyone else to win for me.
now I don't even play the game, I just que up for QP and go into deathmatch and as soon as I get a match I cancel out and que back up and go into deathmatch. I CANT BELIEVE how fun this is to the point where when I get a match I'm infuriated that Blizzard would think I would want to actually play their garbage game with my free time.
Play support. You can pick basically any hero you feel like playing and have impact. You can even one trick a support and have a lot of fun. Within the roster there are totally different playstyles too.
If they ever bring back 2 tanks into the game again the game actually feel better 10000x
That guru guy was pretty good at Mauga but damn that dry rice 456 guy was CHEEKS
they have to make stop easy characters. the game philosophy of making the game easier over time is so stupid. it completely takes away from the skill curve of getting better at the game and makes skill redundant just because another character is just better than yours
Excellent video, subbed.
You actually opened up a constructive discussion from a place of love for the game.
I feel it's too easy for a lot of people in this community to go "ah Blizzard sucks and so does Overwatch" and offer no solution oriented thinking to start a dialogue on how to fix things.
I would love to see more stuff like this with an added focus on making sure the visuals of the video support what you're saying rather than just being filler in the background. Having onscreen examples of any given gameplay element would be helpful in illustrating your point.
Your ending statements were just so on point in this video. Holy smokes.
i think it’s important for heroes to have exploitable weaknesses / strengths. every new hero is kinda just flat and it’s boring. exciting heroes like tracer and widowmaker and winston fit into that.
off topic but 5v5 ruins the game,
what i mean by this is if one of your tank/supports are throwing (mainly tank) then you're all dead.
also you can run cool strats
Don’t forget that Blizzard’s solution to this is to insanely buff damage so that peeking out the wrong corner means instant death if it’s against two people. Then they insanely buffed healing.
So now the game is either W Key in if you’re pocketed or die from a paper cut. Mauga fits this meta to a T. If supports didn’t heal as much, he would lose a lot of his sustain.
Hey, thanks for the video :D
I wanted to run this by anyone who might read this.
But I feel like we are still having the same problem that we have had for ages. GOATS formed, because of this problem, and thats what has lead us to where we are now.
We have these roles. Tank, DPS, Support. But the longer i look at it, the more often I see newer heroes, including alot released in ow1, come out as being able to fill 2 of those roles at once. Specifically, Tanks and Supports, participating way too much in Raw Damage dealing. Not damage boost or offensive cooldowns like anti nade. I mean straight, Big damaging hits.
Why would you bother having DPS, if support and tanks can do the same job, but be safer and be able to provide team buffs.
My thoughts on this arent to pull tanks and support away from playing offensively, but to provide them different ways to participate other than dealing raw damage. I like Sigma's rock as an example here. CC, Anti, and even zarya bubbles. Are excelent ways of offensively contributing to a fight without having to hold M1 and kill their team before they kill yours.
Whilst i think supports should always be able to M1 and assist in fights, especially like bap does, weaving things in. I actually prefer seeing supports like Lifeweaver, where he is getting most of his value from not playing DPS. (He is certainly a little too safe, but I like the idea behind it.)
On the flip side, what do DPS do? Kill things? Kill things better? Get to a point that they have to 1 shot every character else they cant keep up with the defensive abilities combined with the damage of Tanks and Support?
Anyway, my little rant, I want to hear feedback on this though, as I haven't had many people to talk with this about who could actually bring some knowledge to the table. I could be totally off the mark, but it just seems weird that every class can do DPS, but DPS cant do every class.
As an even dumber side note, shouldnt we just swap Mauga with Mei xD
Thanks for reading all, and if you have any opinions on the above would love to hear them, good or bad, its appreciated.
Enjoy your Days!
Hi, I actually think this tale is pretty good. But I think a more nuanced point is maybe that tanks SHOULD be able to do good damage, but at a limited range ie rein, winston. I love sigma and his damage/ range but I’d bet other aspects of his kit would i make up for this. I’d lower healing by about half across the board. And I’d change immortality to field to baptistes ultimate and give it a larger health pool and range. I think all massive damage mitigation from supports should be ultimate abilities like transcendence and beat. Cool-downs like Suzu and lamp should not be available every fight.
Also they have to find a way to make tanks not rock paper scissor. But I’m not sure that’s even realistic in 5v5.
Those are my thoughts anyway!
@@lilbongchainz2870 Thanks for replying :D
Yeah, I agree with the idea with tank damage. Although instead of just range, limit it to a more nuanced method. Sigma is a great example. Unless I'm mistaken, he still has a 1 shot. But said 1 shot relies on him hitting rock and not missing the followup. When you get things like Orisa, Mauga, Hog. Its just shoot shoot shoot, till you need to do something else.
Whilst I really like Junker Queen and think her kit itself is quite balanced. I do think she is less of a tank and more just, DPS. I thought that changing her shotgun into a Spear Gun, a mid range projectile, that has maybe 3 ammo, but when it lands, you can use alt fire to pull the enemy in. But if you land 3 shot on 1 hero, it does stacks, or if you land it on multiple heros it pull them all for a base amount. Would allow her to use her pulling action, more often defensively. Allowing her team to kite better from dives and brawls, protecting her backline. Unlike her current knife which, while can accomplish the same thing, is a single target, meaning its more often just spammed. With the primary fire and alt fire being combined, she would have more decisions to make reguarding when she should pull people. Rather than just, pull target, kill target. Like a DPS character.
In reguards to healing, I disagree with an across the board halving of healing. Rather, I would prefer healing to come from specific sources. Brig vs Bap as an example. Brig has 2 healing sources. Passive AOE, Single target "burst". Bap has 2 aoe healing sources, and gets extra healing on his ability when people are critical. Yes they are different characters for different situations, but its still a little over the top.
As for Support Cooldowns, Stuff like suzu and lamp need to be handled carefully. I'm pretty 50/50 about wanting them in the game. I like the split second of suzu, but also just think its trash to watch someone thats a free kill just turn white and escape. But if Kiriko couldn't 2 tap headshot while she is invulnerable then I'd definately feel better about it. Same with bap, honestly just remove his mobility, cut him off at the legs like ana, and he'd be infinitely less annoying. (But i understand why he has the jumpies because of fun / healing grenade.)
Rock Paper Sissors, w/ tanks especially, would be alot easier if they werent making tanks like Mauga, where they just raw do damage, and instead used a fun mechanic, like sigma/rein/zarya that can be played around. The generic answer to zarya is: dont shoot her bubbles, bait them out, then fight her while she weak. Rather than making WALL tanks: Kill their supports first. Honestly, any tank that can only defend themselves should just be thrown out the fucking window at this point. Ball/Doom being prime fucking examples of tanks that either have to be so oppressive on their own, or their team have to play smarter than they usually do with the other tanks.
Huge damn rant! xD
But thank you for the response, given me alot more to think about along side the original concept.
The worst part is, on maps like circuit Royale, defensive comps are always poke, that easily wring out dive comps, and cover on the attackers side is less abundant, so even running poke can be difficult. It's just a back and forth that isn't very enjoyable.
Something that would've been extremely helpful towards understanding these characters and their kits is to actually *show* gameplay of each character while you're talking about them. As is, visual learners have nothing to go on b/c most of the video is b-roll footage of .
Someone please expload this video even more. I think he broke this whole overwatch problem down to its foundations. This game was fun when people took risk and on top of that, i think 5v5 just feels less creativy as opposed to 6v6. Dive in 6v6 still had risk, but when executed properly, you could actually secure kills and positions you needed in order to win. Now maybe season 9 could help to get things going, but i think this same proplem with these characters, the low risk, high reward characters will still continue forward on.
Written with the help of a translator, but I hope you can understand me. It's really hard to play as a tank, all enemy focuses are coming towards you, you deal less damage than the enemy healer restores. It’s simply impossible to play as a damage dealer, you need to have good aim or use abilities clearly, while an enemy on Kiriko or Zenyatta can randomly hit you in the head, not to mention the world, which you need to hold down one button. In the first overwatch, the damage dealers really gave the healers a nightmare, but now you won’t even have time to approach them. What about healers? They take too much damage because they don't focus on healing their team, they just run around and shoot randomly like Kiriko. Therefore, it is simply impossible to play this game. At a minimum, you need to reduce damage to healers and increase damage to dealers, and ideally reconsider all heroes
Just started the video
But just wanna to say the game would be better if they brought the second tank back
The second tank was responsible for “taking heat” off the other members of your team. Since there is no second tank, there’s no one to do that since they’ll just die immediately.
This is why Mei, Brig, and even fat Mcree will always be insanely effective when played in that way with the right comp around it. You are basically breaking out of the role format if played well enough since you have multiple heroes doing cross functional things.
I really wish we could at least still play OW1
As a ball main, based take. Unfortunately I saw a reasoning on why 6v6 can't happen and that is because with how the game is built, it can't support a 6v6 and we would need a overwatch 3 for that. At the end of the day I think 5v5 was a good choice but there can defiantly be balancing to help out the single tank.
@@Bobthebob16 yea idk where you saw that, but there is absolutely no reason 6v6 isn’t possible. It’s their own laziness and refusal to accept that they fucked up. And to be honest they could never go back because without 5v5, what even was overwatch 2? A cash grab
@@__Jah__ I'm pretty sure I saw the reasoning of 6v6 not happening in a flats video with taking about stuff he learned from devs.
@@Bobthebob16 yea…flats runs a lot of cover for the devs 🤷♂️ fact of the matter is, there is no technical reason they can’t do it. They just don’t want to rebalance the heroes back to 6v6 hp and dmg numbers and rework the heroes the reworked for 5v5
The people in charge of balancing don't play the game they're balancing.
It's a dead game. Just quit. Don't bother with it.
How to get balance back on the right track: remove all role passives and implement 6v6 again. The lack of the second tank IS the reason why the community is crying about supports right now. Then just stop making characters who require zero effort get as much value as the characters that actually take skill to play
Best explanation for why things feel bad rn that i have seen to this point.
So, make people NEED to use their abilities to be effective, instead of being 95% as effective without doing so, and having 3 times more survivability by not doing the engaging+saving your abilities for disengage
So make people either safe or effective, instead of having a choice between both(stay back and shoot) or nome(try to do something fun and die)
It's difficult to comment without repeating what you said in the video, because everything you went over summed up entirely how I feel.
I've mained Reaper for a great deal of the game's history, because he feels like the perfect character that's "designed" for the type of game Overwatch should've been. You're rewarded for finding clever ways to either close gaps alone for your team to capitalize on, or hold ground pushing with the rest of them. But over the years with the introduction of these characters, teams became far less mobile and far more boring. These characters feel designed for or inspired by totally different games. They don't require any thought and can just get out of jail free. Why put myself at risk as a short range character just to get removed from the map by a sniper that never has to engage in the fight? Why play this character, when Sojurn unfairly gets to blow up anything with the same damage as your point blank headshot miles and miles away, and when you push on her, all she has to do is zip away? Why go for a bold kill on a front liner with low health, when Kiriko can just Suzu your damage into nonexistence? Why push or progress, when all your lifeweaver wants to do is run and fall back over and over? The clock ticks away at the top of the screen, nothing is being done. The game might as well be 2018 but "NUH UH" came up on your HUD instead of you getting a pick when you deplete a healthbar. People want to play it in the least proactive way possible and YOU get punished for taking action. In the days of Overwatch 1, you have a kind of risk everywhere. The fun came from finding ways to think around them, not just press a button that eliminates them entirely.
I don't understand the "modern" overwatch player, who overcomplicates the fun out if the game and doesn't get that nothing happens if you don't move up. It's an objective based game, so you should get to the objective not fire over your tanks and across no man's land. Much less, get rewarded for that.
remember when they made us go from 6v6 to 5v5 to make tanks more "balanced"
I just wish the devs would understand that it’s ok to not have every hero in the top tier. There are certain characters that should just be low skill brainless fun, and never tweaked with the intention of being competitive.
Trying to make heroes like Bastion, Mauga, Roadhog, Lifeweaver, etc. viable is wearing the game down. Let the newer and QP players have their fun, but don’t try to make these things competitive
"Orisa when she was strong for a while" She is still my go to for tanking. Until Mauga, there was nobody who could really stop her.
She's a low rank dominator. Winston has been free wins against Orisa for seasons. Even when she was allegedly strong. Which I dont feel shes been since she could basically one shot ppl if she speared them into wall. For real any time someone says "nobody can stop orisa" it just says they are low rank or dont know how to play another character. Literally just focus any body except for orisa and you can beat her on every single tank
Handsome AND well spoken? What can’t he do?!
Of course, it’s dead on as usual. What continues to blow me away season over season, release after release is Blizz’s complete inability to predict these outcomes. Even that assumes that this Isn’t what they wanted.. and maybe that’s generous, but… man, it feels like the people who can critically think about the obvious second order effects are far, far away from the decision making rooms.
People with this game have such strong outlooks that they can say one thing I agree on, and then talk about a drastic change that I think would suck. For someone who’s been with this game for so long to sum things up like this is so refreshing. Thank you for this vid, here’s to hoping things change for the better in 2024
0:05 "Recently"
When you want to be agressive but your team is always too scared to make a play and stays back blaming everything on the tank
I’ve mained Winston/Zarya since S2 OW1, fluctuate between plat/diamond, masters for a split second
This is by far the toughest season to play tank in OW2
I gotta play my absolute best against Mauga
Too much dmg/sustain right now
2:56 "Overwatch's poster child" you might not like it but i believe Kiriko is current OW's poster child...