Growl: I think nerfing the overperformers is a little worrisome. Whole Bench podcast 2 months ago: Arcane mage nerfs are completely fine and good for the health of the game. All arcane mages sitting at 15th on charts: You don't say - nic cage meme
Every healer can time 16-17s so if you don't to bring them to your 12's thats on you dog. People went from saying that shaman is insanely OP and will dominate the entire world because of its utility and then disc priest is now the main healer and brings almost nothing to the group other than raw damage and burst healing. People are just going to copy what the top groups run and the % of people playing each spec has very little relation to how much better or worse those specs are.
Disagree with Growl on the issue that regular tuning that could shake the meta. If tuning is regular and often, than people will play what they like to play and not what is meta outside the heavy sweats. I already do that but hey, I am not a title range player.
If your spec is weak but you know that gradual tuning will be coming over the following few weeks, then you can stick it out. But atm pretty much OP specs are guaranteed to stay OP for months, so rerolling becomes almost mandatory
Yup. His opinion seems to be based on FOTM rerollers who would be mad that they took the time to gear up the meta class. It would be perfectly fine and reasonable for the people who play one main spec (especially off meta) all season because I'm playing it regardless so I'm not crying if my gearing time spent is "wasted" because oh no I got knocked down a few pegs, who am I gonna switch to now
16:15 when you say the meta changing would be "tough for people" -- at least be honest -- it would be tough for *you*. Bc you would swap to the meta. It would *not* be tough for the average player just enjoying their main. Literally out here gaslighting that we would hate a change that only the top %0.01 would actually hate.
Agreed, and I believe consistent meta changes would lead to players naturally playing whatever is fun, instead of chasing the peak output. 3% more dps becomes less attractive if that changes every 2/3 weeks, but is mandatory with current tuning schedules
If the meta only matters for the top .01% then why do you care if it changes? Balance is relatively good right now and the entire comments is filled with people frustrated that their class isnt #1 or #2. The balance harmony where everybody thinks every class is equal is not attainable.
Don't be stupid, looking at the graph of classes completing keys you see that most people change to whatever's meta. The average player isn't doing +8's, so why would they care?
Personally I would be fascinated to peak into the world of a death limit just to see the comp. Would 5 prot paladins be taken? 3 tank, aug, and healer? Would somehow 1/1/3 be kept?
@@fleshhunter87032 Augs, best DPS, heals and tank. Or possibly two of the best heals and one of each of the rest. Or possibly two tanks and one of the rest lmao. I could definitely see there only being 1 DPS (not counting augs) unless there is a heavy dps check. You’d just have the healer/tank go off spec for that pull though
Deaths would feed the moles to do hour or two hour dungs just for loot and points. M+ is 30 mins of fast paced tactical gameplay. Pugs is 30 mins of testing skill and patience with moles.
Growl at 29:00 your point about does it really matter if you play with someone who is dogshit. Yes for people who only have 1-2 hours a night wasting half or more of that on a failed run is kinda a big deal.
I love the part where everyone agrees that playing in the pug world outside of their friend group would be enough to make them all quit wow. But also, "who cares if people are bad in my group" Logic is next level them.
Not to mention that if it's your key and you're in a position where you are climbing (so you have to use your key) you have to get that 9 back to a 10 (as an example).
Not balancing more just for the sake of incidentally shifting the meta so people have to fotm reroll is another 1% take. Most people play the spec they have fun with or like the fantasy. Everyone should be taken into account not just protecting the meta slaves.
Is this meant to be a "gotcha"? Balancing out outliers to try to open up what people can get invited on is beneficial for more players than not. @@yumytv
"Is a bad player in your key really that bad?" When you spend 30min+ getting the group together and another 15-40min bricking the key to only get 5 crests (or even worse just abandon on the last boss) and that is how you spent your whole evening, yes, it is that big of a deal. Most people do one or two keys a night, brick it, and go to bed. You are very obviously not in the trenches with people who don't know how to not stand in bad, let alone use their utility or even press all their CDs every time they're up. Thankfully the changes that went through this week alleviate some of the issues. Honestly tho, this season should've taught everyone to stop pugging and get a team together.
@Valerielives this is a major red flag. Yes a bad player is that bad... like holy shit. I want them to pug an entire season without their entitled "teams" and see how bad it is for real. No fake ass 0 to hero series either. As a tank, I admit, I don't spend a lot of time waiting in the queue but it's is absolutely soul breaking when the key is broken within the first 10 minutes for stuff objectively out of my control. Like, the dumb ass that ate two frontals and died, leaving the group or the healer is shoving all his externals up his ass and not giving the tank 1 external all key long when I cycled through 4 of them as a prot paladin. I'm sure that healer is tracking cooldown in 4 different places or paying for a UI he doesn't know how to use. Without experiencing these idiots, no one can defend this point at all. I can entertain all the other arguments about any aspect of the game but when an entitled healer streamer says a shitter in your group isn't that bad. That triggers me so bad.
100% the dogshit player is bad. I've had tanks in a 5 GB not know to kite on the 2nd boss, and tank the dragon out in the middle of the room, refusing to change because he didn't like doing the corner strat. All 3 keys failed because players are dogshit at this game. Coming from a lukewarm first time healer.
the most confusing part about the tuning is that some specs ever get touched and others all the time. As a Mage One trick Pony, i always get changes about every spec of my class, which always leads to, changing the specialization, because a new one is meta, and with TWW we got to change Herotalents more than once, because mage always gets tuned and changed. For my M+ Friend group i am playing guardian druid to do some keys and i am so used to check new meta builds from playing mage. I was clearly surprised that Guardian druid never changed anything since beta. How is this a thing in World of Warcraft? Besides the "Mage = Main character" meme.
@@k9tirion927 yeh and mage again in with alot of changes, llike i have to study mage everypatch, cuz everything always changes, don't know what to prefer anymore. :D
Did they REALLY "fix" Crests and everything is rainbows and sunshine? One question... If someone just returned with this patch, as a M+ ONLY player, lets do the math and see how many mythic track items they can get in a month, or even two months starting from this week? And that's not counting they gonna have to start from low keys as a returning player and not having enough gear to begin with? Now let's change that to a returning player in a guild who does mythic raids..... This week alone, carry them through first four bosses easily and bingo! Another week or two and you can see where this is heading, right?
Break the Meta was such a fail event it can't be understated. They allowed Elemental shaman in while not permitting a whole slew of specs like Marks, Fury, Resto druid, Havoc, etc from even taking part. I mean wtf?! Trash event with zero forethought.
@@Painchiller Don't claim someone doesn't understand the format and then immediately state something completely wrong about the format. Every class has at least one spec in the event, but NOT one DPS spec.
The problem with class tuning is they should buff under representing talent points. How many talents points are never pick because there bad. Then they get a 400% buff and still people wont pick it. They should focus on buffing useless talents that sound or are cool but the damage aint there.
HOW can you claim "Class balance is pretty good", and "This season has been better than before and it's heading to the right direction" in the SAME freakin sentence that started with "If you are a Hunter main and play on M+, you have probably just quit"? 🙃🙃¯\_(ツ)_/¯ At least listen to yourself first, before continuing to finish your own sentence... 😬😬
The 2500 score / Mythic last boss thing is not just "glowy shoulders". It adds Mythic set animations to non Mythic sets. It's often glowy shoulders yes but can include other animations depending on the set. So e.g. you can mog an LFR tint but have cool Mythic animations on it.
Partially related to overtuned white swings, but one of the more frustrating problems with tanking IMO is that most have a ton of minor DR effects that are generated passively by doing your basic rotation that make pulling extremely painful due to the long ramp-up towards defensive stability. There are several pulls where dying in a couple seconds is a real possibility because your 20-30% total of passive DR effects haven't kicked in yet, on top of having your attention taxed at the same time by trying to gather the mobs together and establish threat.
If you let tanks do dps damage why the fuck are we not playing 5 tanks in a key. You do dps dmg anyways so why take dps, then you have 4 tanks so you dont die and change the healer to a tank too. The issue is not tank dmg its tank survivability.
The thing I hate, as someone who dabbles in tanking is knowing if I pulled too much or too little. Knowing the last few packs are 8% and that I have to get to 92% before starting those makes me feel like I have to do homework before a key. I dont have to do that as a healer or a dps until I get to high keys.
Every tank should have a baseline purgatory-like ability that can only be removed by having a battle rez on you, there needs to be some way for a tank to be BR'd without at least half the group dying.
@@StevemcnashTo be fair, his view is skewed. All three of their comments this episode make it difficult to listen to them rant about how things are fine and dandy and problems that are focused on the top 0.1% or lower of players. They have no real concept for an average player experience. Just like their take on “how could any one not be totally geared out right now” - says the group of players who don’t pug and have access to consistent Mythic raid loot. The crest change doesn’t solve the problem and while it was a factor as to why this season went quickly in decline, it wasn’t the sole problem. Just adding a few extra crests as rewards, doesn’t change the fact if you need crests and can do 8s faster than 10s, let alone 11s, why would you waste time in higher keys? Let’s go even further, if you can spam 7s quickly and then trade up 45 at a time for gilded, why even waste time in higher keys for crest farming ? The most efficient use of time and effort will always win. Now a significant, massive change would be adding exponentially more crests. Instead of 12, we get 30 crests, with no depletion penalty. They forget most players aren’t chasing IO or higher difficulty/ pushing for title range or even care about that.
Squishey makes a great point, the thing that sucks about WOW balancing is that a class could literally be forgotten about for years at a time or receive two reworks within 6 months (aka ele sham) The thing is you guys objectively look at class balance and go, alright cool ima play this class since this is what the meta settled on and its more of a decision based on the meta for you all which you dont mind... A LOT of people do not think like this, they want to play what sounds dope AND get invited to groups. Blizzard is horribly inconsistent in the eyes of the average joe who just wants to play ele shaman but its been trash for years, meanwhile theres reworks and tons of other stuff happening for other classes.
another huge thing that yall mentioned is talking to the community... a lot of times a class will literally just not be mentioned AT ALL for so long that you wonder if anyones even working on it... my guess, they arent.
While I would say overall tank dps needs an increase (I'm starting to have some serious threat issues as a bear) it is not my main complaint by far. That is simply not having enough CD's for the amount of tank busters and feeling like my standard mitigation IF does nothing, as well as any mistake I make being insanely punishing (which I don't know how to solve outside of more cheat deaths.) Its funny how all of the suggestions are basically what we already know is going to be happening in upcoming patches as the tank nerf/overpowered cycle continues to turn. It looks like there are some tank buster nerfs coming today so I'll try tanking again but honestly I don't expect to be able to go from a proactive play style to a reactive play style which I prefer. So I'll probably spend the rest of the patch on my Ret pally which while harder to find groups has been a hell of a lot more fun and seems to impact keys far more with good defensive and utility play. Its a sad day when I feel I can save the party from wipes more often as ret than I can as a bear.
Had to comment on the META conversation starting around 15:00. Tettles & Growl seem to be against more frequest tuning because it could change the meta? Huh? This literally only affects the top 0.1% of players who actually FOTM re-roll and care about playing the best comp at all times. For the other 99.9% of players, more frequent tuning would be amazing. Squishei said it best that the goal should be to constantly trend towards a middle line. Buff the classes that are weak, 2 weeks later if they are too strong, nerf them. It becomes a constant balancing game which is the point. Good classes won't be locked in for 6 months and bad classes won't be ghosted for 6 months. This CAN and WILL only result in a more diverse m+ pool of players and will encourage you to just play the classes you like and bring back what makes RPGs good in the first place which is identity and passion. I see literally NO downsides to more frequent tuning. It's not like there won't be high m+ push teams going for R1 anymore, it would just mean that everyone is playing different comps, similar to what we saw in S1 of DF. Even high-end players get gassed out from constantly re-rolling. This would actually discourage you from re-rolling because you know that tuning is done so frequently. The only reason FOTM re-rolling even exists right now is because tuning is not done enough, and everyone knows their class is stuck in whatever good/bad state it's in for likely the entire season.
Gotta agree with Squishei here. It’s not immediately obvious to your layperson when buffs and nerfs are happening. I’m always in favor of incremental buffs to underperformers rather than nerfs in routine cases for good specs - why not try a biweekly thing but stop 6-8 weeks before gearing ends so that the title picture can shake out, and there’s more time to progress where needed?
I just want blizz to based every decision they do on tank power/key depletion/crests/mythlockout etc. on a simple question "Does it increase the % of time people are actually doing the content vs finding a group to do the content". I think they are way to tighed up on their idea on how people should play the game and what should be fun.
1:30:30 the exact key I stopped tanking this season was a Dawnbreaker 8! That I was tanking for a friend on my VDH with an otherwise pug group where I landed in the consecration for 2nd miniboss and pulled the 2 packs in front of the small stairs. 2 DPS decided to dive bomb into the miniboss and wiped to it, making it a 4 pack pull that I successfully survived and they downed after multiple deaths. One of the dive bombing DPS called me shit for not doing the "standard" route - I told him the ground rule was to follow tank's route in DB. More flaming so I sniped him every chance I got for the remainder of the key. That solidified my choice of just calling it quits at portals.
Don't know what people try to prove with this "once I met these two idiots in dungeon xy" stories. If I had left every game I played like this, I would have quit online gaming at all
22:06 Growl so you are saying that classes that are underperforming should never get buffed because you do not like it at the top 0.1% of people. Remember that there are 99.9% of people around that you are now asking the balance team to ignore. Even if we go to the 1% you are still going against a lot of people. Also why should we listen to growl the guy who ALWAYS leave to play wow classic. He does not even play the game at the moment.
@@yumytv You are saying that there should not be changes in the meta because of the top 0.1% would not like it. While you are ignoring that the wast majority of players this would be a good thing for. You also have not actually followed what classes are being meta is the same ones over and over and over again. If you at least had a turn over where everyone will be meta at some point you have a reason to stick with what you are already playing, as the game is now it rewards FOTM players over people who play what they find fun to play. Remember you want the game to not change for a total of 49 897 characters (this is the number done 15 and up in the world) so say 50k people is we assume 1 character per person. These people might not like it they might like it if they played with it we do not know. What we do know is that is not a lot of people compared to how many are doing m+. And you are willing to sacrifice 99% of the playerbase so that the specific group you are in will have no changes. (the same group you are leaving to play Classic all the time for) It is the classic response to the topics of people wanting rewards to just be right under where they are, and that is what you are doing here trying to gatekeep.
@@yumytv just stop having takes man. get your bad opinion grounded to reality. the more i listen the podcasts the more i get infuriated. you are out of touch , your arguments are elitist/ bad . if that 5% of damage difference between classes doesnt matter as you claim, guess what, why are you fotming then? you havent done a single world first key that actually matters this season when truly no other class can do and its the actual small % that enables the keys. i see so many classes atm timing the same keys you timed, so why you rerolled? why did you play your part in creating that meta that reverberates into lower brackets? JUST STOP HAVING THOSE ATROCIOUS TAKES MY MAN. or please someone replace him in this podcast ........ It reminds me the same shitty behaviour/attitude/bad take that started in dragonflight with you shitting on disc priest and ruining the chances of low bracket discs to join because somehow word gets spread. gtfo my man . you went from literally my favourite wow content creator in SL , to one of the worst,most elitist,bad takes one . how did that happen? maybe you have to remind yourself what made you great ?
io doesn't translate to skill precisely for the reason tettles brought up re: squishei's "i only do 10s" mythic raider guildmates. i am in the same position, mythic raider without a team and not playing a turbo meta spec, stopped at 2700 io bc i'm not pushing for title. but i'm a lot more skilled than the random "i only do m+ and capped at a 10" wow player.
Squishei once again retaining the man of the people title. The tuning changes is a clown fiesta in terms of consistencies, and won’t even listen to feedback from classes that have serious issues.
I can't be alone in thinking that the game would be better if the resources to make another island was used for more end-game content (ie, a raid or dungeon).
The prospect of doing the chores required to get a ring is a massive turn off for me. For some people that is new content that they enjoy (new quests, new item), but I really dislike doing quests at max level in general.
@@elxjasonx the point is, that even those resources (as little or distinguishable you're making them out to be) would be better suited to bolster that 11.1 timeline/content.
1:48:30 - "Going to the Dungeon is social" I will never forget the day during WotLK when they implemented the Warlock Summoningcloset and effectively broke all summons in the game for a few days. No Warlock summons, no meetingstones, nothing. People were AFKing in Dalaran demanding to be summoned to Vault of Archavon (instead of just going to the portal that was up in Dalaran to get sent there instantly) and when told that Summons was borked in the entire game they just left the group. Similarly so many times we were waiting for someone to run a Heroic dungeon which took 20-30min, and I was the only person who flew down to Howling Fjord while the other 4 sat in Dalaran spamming "Sumplz" or "123". When I said I was along at the stone and one of them had to come down to help summon they just bailed.
I don’t think it’s a consistency or timing thing with tuning, I think it’s that blizzard is HISTORICALLY silent to acknowledge almost any issues. I can understand them missing the mark on class or boss tuning or if a weird bug comes up or exploit, that happens. But to say absolutely nothing until the patch notes is infuriating & frankly disrespectful. They would garner a lot more goodwill if they would make a small lil post saying “hey, we know this is a problem, we’re working on it”
Tons of garbage takes in this, they really need some casual voices. No casual average person will reroll for M+, no casual person even does m+ because dedicatimg that large of a chunk of time with no ability to step away is complete garbage.
I think the issue that many DPS have (speaking anecdotally from talking to people in my guild) is that enhancement is doing like 21% more damage than the median DPS, post nerfs. DPS care about the damage meters and your average FOTM reroller is probably going to do 1-5% more damage minimum than someone good at their class in the average range. It doesn't feel good for those players knowing they played better but performed worse. There will always be a meta and I don't think the goal should be to disrupt that. Instead try to reduce the discrepancy. This type of balancing might even have the added upside of taking that one-trick over the Meta. I play Prot Warrior and it is super annoying that Prot Paly does 30% more damage. I was a one-trick Prot Warrior all of 2024 and first timed Prot Paly this season on an alt. I was doing more damage at 615 than I was doing on my 630 Warrior. Surely, there can be a middle ground here.
@@havtor007 Sacrificing defense, rage, utility, and a fun rotation/playstyle for more damage doesn't seem like a great option. Especially, when that Paly example I sacrifice nothing.
@JBX5677JB Hahahahaha well if you think the paladin example sacrifice nothing that shows how little you know about prot paladin. Yes you do not sacrifice as much but the moment you say nothing you are just wrong
@@havtor007 You admitted you don't sacrifice much. Strange that your response would be laughing. You also said I don't know anything about Prot Palidin for this opinion without any substance. Great argument! Very intelligent!
What gets you back to playing tank? agency over my own life make routing more interesting. have a basic w route in there, but give us options. dps, tank in aoe should compete with the dps. because it´s fun. and on ST it should at least do 80%. because that is fun. Especially in raid when you live anyway it´s just soo boring when tank do not do much ST dmg and it doesn´t matter what you press. better hero talents for most of the tanks, brew is so broing, DH is very boring, Bear is not inspiring...DK also again is 100% locked into talents more or less like in DF.
I was gonna listen to the Spotify podcast but had to go on YT to comment how out of touch they still are. Changing the meta even monthly would be great, screw FoTM players and gives every class an equal opportunity to be good when they fall behind.
From a 2,5k RIO and AOTC every season dadgamer: I just want to play the game, have fun and be rewarded for the time i invest into the game. At any time where Blizzard is preventing any of those 3 things, thats when my season is over. That was like a month and a half ago, at the myth and gilded gating threshold. Game got really stale when i reached that, and thats when my subscription was frozen. If Blizzard wants me to play for longer, thats where they need to make a change.
I only play keys for gear. Something I like to use at the start of the season when deciding about applicants is looking at their raid progress. If they killed a boss that is pretty difficult that is a decent indicator that they have hands. If they can handle those bosses it's also likely that they will be able to handle 10s. I'd rather take players like those over others who have higher scores. Obviously when you go over 10s raid experience is less relevant. But I don't do that so I don't care about it.
Every MMO that has gone free to play, has gone down the dumpster, save a few exceptions. If blizz released a blog post that wow was going free to play at the end of midnight, I'd enjoy the last expansion for wow, because there's a good chance it's going pay to win.
To make tanks fun, make their AoE higher and to be competitive with the lowest dps’er. And make it so they scale their dps higher with mobs relative to DPS. Make healers single target competitive with low tier dps. Tanks and healers want to flex on their dps.
The "Do you care so much about playing with a garbage player" is just a high level player take. In a +12 or higher, a garbage player kills the key: by doing subpar dps, especially on bosses that have a dps check phase, by constantly dying and draining time, by relying on them to dispel curses/poisons or doing some specific task (i.e. ranged intrerupt on the 2nd boss of Stonevault), and them not doing it. When you do 90% of your keys with a specific party or pug with viewers that you hand pick, this happens less, but for a player that just wants to improve, a 12 is what a 17 is for Growl, and he doesn't want to tank the key because of one player.
If you just wanted to improve then you wouldn't care if people in your key aren't that good because you are focused on your own gameplay. You would realize you have a LONG way to go from a 12 to a 17 and one or two random trashcans in your groups wont really change that path. However, if you didn't care about improving and only wanted to move up because you believe you deserve to be higher ranked than you are - then yeah you are going to get frustrated at other people depleting your keys.
@yumytv I wasn't saying that a 12 is equal to a 17 in difficulty, but rather that it feels as hard for a casual that found his level there as a 17 feels for a title pusher. And if you have 4 players like this in a party, and one is dragging his feet, the other four will not be able to carry his weight. That is why I think people are so picky when forming a group. I totally disagree with the players that are 2.6k rating and wait 30 mins to form a group with 3k+ players. That is just entitlement and waiting for people to carry you. Also, for most people there is the time commitment. A key takes about an hour (from posting the group to finish). When you play for 3 hours a day, it feels like you threw your whole day away after 2 keys deplete from silly mistakes. And the curent M+ difficulty structure is totally out of whack. The walls at 10 and 12 are massive. It feels like there are a few keystone levels missing there and players are scared to deplete and prefer to spend an hour in group finder waiting for good players to "boost" them. EDIT FACTOID: we love the smell of cooked meat because of the Millard reaction (the reaction of exposing protein to heat). Cooking meat heavily decreases the chance of getting sick after eating it, so through evolution, the brain has been coded to like the smell of cooked meat, so we want to do it and not die.
Balance patches like what is coming out today could happen every other week. Affliction lock is not becoming meta from this patch- it’s just bringing up the bottom (except unholy… I think they’re pretty good even before this at their niche). They could do more balancing of bringing up the bottom specs at all times, I think. Don’t shake up the meta regularly, but making every spec viable for high-ish keys hurts nobody. Editing to add: they could announce when they expect meta shifts to happen would do a lot. I think everyone would like blizzard to just communicate more.
IO provides a rough outline and to some degree a skill floor, but io is very positively correlated with number of keys run as each key run will never lower your io, but if the key is untimed yet, has a chance to positively increase score. So even if you're only timing 10% of rating keys, if you're running 40 keys a week you'll climb in io, but be a worse player than someone at the same rating who times 40% of rating keys but only does 8 keys a week. Also, like mentioned since you just need a single good run to gain io, with enough reps, even a mediocre player can luck into a group carry.
WoW has the worst on-boarding experience in gaming. Add to that a total lack of in-game information, unintuitive and complexity-for-complexity's sake gameplay and systems design, and it's a wonder there are any new players at all. I've really enjoyed TWW so far, but I couldn't imagine spending any more than a few hours in the game as a completely fresh player rather than a 20-year veteran. Oh, and MAKE THE TIMER OPTIONAL. That's all they have to do, make a tick box to activate the timer.
Maybe ask tanks what would they like to change? Just an idea. Making tanks top dps chart is a horrible idea. Tanks need to be cool and tanky. Pulling huge packs and being your own orchestra, unnerf tanks.
I feel like its a recurring theme that someone brings up something that many players dislike as an anxiety and then Growl goes "I am a man of the people, I know anxiety, but theres no point being anxious about that." The world just is not a place where people either like things or are anxious about them. I'm not anxious about raw tomatoes, they dont scare me, I just dislike them. Timers are a very commonly disliked mechanism in video games. Go to the now ancient boards for Final Fantasy 13-3 or maybe Legend of Zelda Majoras Mask and you will find tons and tons of people complaining about the timers. Its just a reality that fast is not every players favourite playstyle. Many players would prefer to be able to tackle more difficult mythic plus dungeons by taking their time, planning out easier routes and CC and strategies, whatever it takes. Its not reasonable to just handwave all that away as "people are anxious". All that said, I do think that if you took away the timer and left it in favour of deaths it would be an actual tragedy in pugs. Maybe if it was wipes instead of deaths the way the death counter originally worked in delves before they changed it that might be alright, but just deaths means you could get actually boned even running keys that are plenty easy for you just by having a random pug who is not able to stay out of the fire. *Edit* I just wanted to add because it seems also common that there is confusion as to why people dont care to run things that "exist" in the game to fill some "desire" for a certain game mode. The vast majority of players who are not pushing keys higher than 12 care about 1 thing and 1 thing only - loot. They dont run the dungeons because they are "fun" (although most probably wouldnt run them if they werent at least fun) they run them for the rewards. If you are trying to ask players who push higher than 10ish whether they are like that, of course they arent, that game mode is by definition for people who dont care about rewards since it offers no rewards. The vast majority of players though only care about rewards, so you could introduce the absolute funnest game mechanic to ever exist ever and give it no loot and almost no one will play it.
16:00 so radical idea that blizzard will never do : move to bi-weekly class tuning and gear becomes warbound so you can always switch (basically low sunk cost in switching) toons
this is a major red flag. Yes a bad player is that bad... like holy shit. I want them to pug an entire season without their entitled "teams" and see how bad it is for real. No fake ass 0 to hero series either. As a tank, I admit, I don't spend a lot of time waiting in the queue but it's is absolutely soul breaking when the key is broken within the first 10 minutes for stuff objectively out of my control. Like, the dumb ass that eat two frontals and died, leaving the group or the healer is shoving all his externals up his ass and not giving the tank 1 external all key long when I cycled through 4 of them as a prot paladin. I'm sure that healer is tracking cooldown in 4 different places or paying for a UI he doesn't know how to use. Without experiencing these idiots, no one can defend this point at all. I can entertain all the other arguments about any aspect of the game but when an entitled healer streamer says a shitter in your group isn't that bad. That triggers me so bad.
Some friends literally just don’t like the go fast nature of M+, these are friends that like classic, rouge like games that have deliberate play etc. I think it’s boring af, but that’s why they don’t like the timer.
Yo, @Squishy, Corruptions as Embelishments would so sick. I thought the corruption effects like Twilight Devastation, Infinite Stars, Lash of the Void, Echoing Void, and Ineffable Truth were so cool. Even having the secondary % stat ones wouldn't be OP like they were cause you could only have 2 of them.
24:55 BTM does *NOT* base which specs are eligible based off what is good or bad, they look at the *popularity* of specs in each role starting at a +5. That is why survival hunter is in BTM, but marksman isnt even though marksman is clearly much worse than survival right now. The fact that those specs are in BTM does not make them bad specs or even underperforming specs, just unpopular at low key levels (or in the case of ele required so the class has a spec in the event). I do agree with the overall notion that non-meta specs can do higher content than most people think if the player behind the screen is good, but just wanted to say that using BTM as the "look at these bad specs doing this" doesnt really work when those specs (survival, outlaw, ele) are significantly better than specs that weren't even eligible for BTM (marksman, havoc, arcane, etc).
removing the timer will push away so many players , i think blizzard don't wanna admit that they messed up , i know they did it once for sl , but now its like " we can't say we messed up twice" , everyone ask for peril nerfs , everyone ask for tanks to be tanky , and healers to get less stress healing , but instead of lowering the damage on the +4 to +10 range so everyone can be a happy camper , we get this bs survey , just let people do their +18 like in df weekly myth track , its not that complicated , everyone had a good time doing df s 3 , i hang out with my friends doing that stuff with no issue , it was a fun time , but now its so complicated and hardcore for no reason , too much of challenging content is always bad , you have to find a sweet spot , and that was df s3 , bring that bs back.
I mean: Besides IO Blizz can release more Data. Give them a "Kick", "Stun" "Overall" and "Boss-Dmg" Highscore. Let other people see, that not only the person was be able to pay a Boostgroup for his 2500 IO Score, bring them the opportunity to show their actual Skilllvl ingame.
1:05:30 Tettles is spot on, all of that stopped me from really giving WoW a fair shot until after I had graduated from college and had the disposable income
Anyone who doesn't like a timer can just... do delves? I'm not understanding why they would ruin one game mode just to implement another that already exists. Hopefully they see the light.
No timer M+ with solo Q could be interesting. First, having no timer is probably the only viable option for solo Q to begin with, unless we want to climb the charts of most toxic systems in gaming. Second, with the well design rewards and progression structure, meaning it has reduced rewards and probably caps out at +10-12 key difficulty, it could be a supplementary system for timed M+ where it serves two purposes, - it's a great stepping stone for people seeking entering M+ scene and it could even be something you do when you don't have your group online, instead of dealing with group finder boss.
1:19:42 Thought about this that there is no reason m+ can't have multiple win conditions. No doubt many people have done keys when you are just over the timer by like 1 - 2 mins plus the group played really well still and that situation should be rewarded still. Now I'm not saying to remove the timer but you have parallel win conditions. For example: it's the timer OR a certain number of deaths. This way you can still shoot for the timer but if you go over by even 1 second you have the back up that the group only had 7 deaths.
growl and tettles so condencending its crazy. we all understand how the balance works at the moment, the discussion should be if it is acceptable to have this balance pattern in 2024/25
Honestly the whole "meta is okay thing" is not exactly wrong but it misses the point completely. The fact that all healers can do a 16-17 is actually irrelevant when you can't play the game or get invited to groups. The perception of the meta and it's influence on group finder is far, far more relevant to the community then the nuts and bolts of what any class can do if optimally piloted. As an aside, I continue to believe that class-based rewards would do more for the m+ meta then any other balancing change possibly could (except maybe removing aug).
BRUH... gtfo with that anxiety bs... if you feel anxious about a game mode because of a timer.. dont play that mode... problem solved. Removing timer from m+ is just dumb af... get rid of or nerf challenger's peril and the m+ situation would be 90% fixed.
A good system that could accompany IO is to have an add-on that would take the number of interrupts, dispels, defensive, cc's, and self-heals, etc, you do though the whole dungeon and it would give you a score, every dungeon you run that factors into your "play" score
I remember the last time tanks did BIG damage was the last season of BFA with twilight dev and lemme tell you there were no shortage of tanks that season. There were sooo many tanks actually that people were doing 30 man tank runs on heroic raid and clearing the raid often.
I always find it strange when people wave something away as a "social issue". Blizzard, and for that matter anyone, can't change social dynamics. What they can change is the incentives, to play tank for instance. If the incentives are strong enough, the negative effect of social dynamics can be overcome by the positive effects of, say, tank gameplay being super poggers.
At 29 growl talking about "who cares about players being dogshit" that was a fair point the last couple of seasons but this season keys feel uncarryable, too many kicks, too many factors to go wrong and too many mechanics people just have no idea about, its very frustrating this season to have a random dumbass completely brick your shit
IO is an image of your performance in keys; your performance in keys is an image of your skill. It's not perfect, but no rating system can be perfect because it's always an image and generally even an image of an image.
About a parallel dungeon mode with no timer: it would be great to have a practice mode to help new players and friends who aren’t used to the dungeon pool. Make it a 3-level penalty so they’re not worth farming. Edit: and maybe they only allow practice mode up to 12 (rewarding as if it’s a 9).
You just spend all this time explaining why we need solo queue. If the single biggest obstacle to playing the game is getting an invite to a group, you’ve lost the point entirely. Just put in solo queue and manage the new problems that arise, but the one issue you’ll never have is “I can’t play the game because no one will invite me”. That is quite literally the e death of a game. I want to play, but I can’t.
Nerfing external damage for tanks and healers makes sense to avoid all tanks runs and all healer runs for example. I do agree that if there is a "fun" trinket or an over tuned item that it should not be nerfed to unusable. I have no idea what would be the right play for balancing that. One thing that has been a shower thought for a while is that they add a spec buff like tanks in the M+ instance will give a passive buff like "for every other tank get 50% more damage taken and done". this would be across the 3 specs, you can even make it sub spec type for melee, ranged. This is not a perfect system as well and would need refinement but this would help prevent nerfing external damage from items and trinket, and would prevent cheese strats like 2 tank groups and so on.
I think it was skirted around to say that tanks aren’t allowed to do dps amounts of damage because then why bring dps? Maybe for trinkets it doesn’t matter, but, generally, I don’t think blizzard wants damage tanks to be a thing. I think the solution for tanking is to remove some defensive cds and put that passive damage reduction into doing your damage rotation intelligently. Make shield slam give you shield block or something. Defensive bloat ruins this game.
The crest change is good for a season start but it misses the point that it doesnt help with alt crest acquisition for alts. You still need a ludicrous amount of dungeon runs to get your crest cap (and this is what they could fix to keep players playing this deep in the season).
With regards to the M+ without a timer, I agree no timer would cause people to wait on CDs and such. But what about a way to pause the timer in case something happens? Everyone stands still, cooldowns do not recover. That way if an emergency happens, or someone's Uber Eats shows up, or the dog is about to shit, it is perfectly fine!
I think the fundamental problem with tanking is this: When I play dps, i press a button and health bars go down. When I play healer, I press a button and health bars go up. When I play tank, I press a button and health bars don't *really* go down. I do a big thunder clap on prot warrior and it has a big booming sound effect and mobs take like 0.5% of their health bars. It's just plain less dopamine than the other roles. "Not dying" is the absence of a negative, not the presence of a positive, so it doesn't make the brain feel good in the same way. Tanks need a way to get that big dopamine hit and they just don't get it in the current m+ paradigm. You can't even do big hero pulls and feel like a gigachad for being able to live it, because your dps get machine gunned down and there's 5000 kicks going off that your team can't handle. And now there's 70 tank busters and you can't live it anyway!
your missing whats killing wow its all the system that label skill all the parses raider IO warcraft logs , all this data is out there and the truth is there's not that many good players there a lot of players in the middle and they just simply dont reflect well on all these bnech mark factors . Think about it you want to do keys in pugs but you only want to invi the top 5 % of all the players combined who do keys at any given season and then your even more so only one wanting key roles from those people
I feel like they need to make tank deaths less punishing. Maybe if the tank dies there could be a window of time where the rest of the party dying doesnt count toward the timer. Because as it is a tank death effectively counts as 5 deaths and that feels pretty bad and gets people more tilted over tanks making mistakes.
I think the purpose behind the embellishments is too ensure that the player interacts with the crafting system (for at least 2 crafts). The cynical side of me would say, too ensure that at least a portion of the player base has a "valid" reason to invest into paying for a token, to be able to make said crafts.
1:25:00 I'm probably wierd but I always had the opposite pressure, tanking always felt more like "gaming with the homies" because while my DPS is nice it's not the difference between winning and losing. As long as I don't fall over it's fine. I also dont pug as a tank tho so IDK.
Regarding changing the timer to deaths. I wish they would just remove key depletion so it feels less bad when you don't time. Maybe still give vault credit but give no crests so people are still incentivized to run lower keys for time for crests. Or maybe drop the vault reward 3 ilvls if you don't time so you have to complete a 11 or a 12 to get the max vault you would get for timing a 10. Depletion is just what makes the system of not timing a key feel terrible and makes it feel more stressful. Lots of knobs blizz could turn to make keys not depleting a beneficial thing for the system.
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"The meta is not that bad...Only 2 out of 3 dps slots are fixed"
Come on Tettles
'runs hand through hair'
Wait, you people think Tettles has ever had an opinion that isn’t running dmg control for blizz? lol
its better then only 3 out of 3 dps slots are fixed, which one is worse?
@@BusJustice This exactly
Growl: I think nerfing the overperformers is a little worrisome. Whole Bench podcast 2 months ago: Arcane mage nerfs are completely fine and good for the health of the game. All arcane mages sitting at 15th on charts: You don't say - nic cage meme
I mean you could see it with rsham. Disc or rdruid meta and the sweats sleep, but god forbid rsham is meta and they are calling for nerfs
Growl is officially ready for the "like, I don't know" olympics.
Ya this is really bad. Should improve his speech habit if this podcast thing is to continue
squishei man of the people
12:51 "the meta's not bad" ... there are only 2 healer specs brought to keys over 12 💀
Aug Evoker and Disc Priest weighing in about meta being okay
I understand your frustration but this meta is so much better for healers than the bad times in DF and SL... A MW just timed the world 1st CoT ffs
That might be true but keys over +12 are like the top 2% of keys done, is the meta ever not restrictive at the highest levels of play?
@@Armand886 unfortunately the trickle down in wow is kinda insane.
Every healer can time 16-17s so if you don't to bring them to your 12's thats on you dog. People went from saying that shaman is insanely OP and will dominate the entire world because of its utility and then disc priest is now the main healer and brings almost nothing to the group other than raw damage and burst healing. People are just going to copy what the top groups run and the % of people playing each spec has very little relation to how much better or worse those specs are.
I will judge Growl based off his 6/8 m raid status not his io
Disagree with Growl on the issue that regular tuning that could shake the meta. If tuning is regular and often, than people will play what they like to play and not what is meta outside the heavy sweats. I already do that but hey, I am not a title range player.
100%, if competitive players feel forced to reroll every couple of weeks because of balancing, that’s a self imposed problem and healthy for the game.
If your spec is weak but you know that gradual tuning will be coming over the following few weeks, then you can stick it out.
But atm pretty much OP specs are guaranteed to stay OP for months, so rerolling becomes almost mandatory
Yup. His opinion seems to be based on FOTM rerollers who would be mad that they took the time to gear up the meta class. It would be perfectly fine and reasonable for the people who play one main spec (especially off meta) all season because I'm playing it regardless so I'm not crying if my gearing time spent is "wasted" because oh no I got knocked down a few pegs, who am I gonna switch to now
16:15 when you say the meta changing would be "tough for people" -- at least be honest -- it would be tough for *you*. Bc you would swap to the meta. It would *not* be tough for the average player just enjoying their main. Literally out here gaslighting that we would hate a change that only the top %0.01 would actually hate.
Many in the top %.01 would like it too. There are a few people that play pretty much every spec regardless of meta.
Agreed, and I believe consistent meta changes would lead to players naturally playing whatever is fun, instead of chasing the peak output. 3% more dps becomes less attractive if that changes every 2/3 weeks, but is mandatory with current tuning schedules
If the meta only matters for the top .01% then why do you care if it changes? Balance is relatively good right now and the entire comments is filled with people frustrated that their class isnt #1 or #2. The balance harmony where everybody thinks every class is equal is not attainable.
Don't be stupid, looking at the graph of classes completing keys you see that most people change to whatever's meta. The average player isn't doing +8's, so why would they care?
@@yumytv as you’ve noted in the past, top keys heavily influence lower key comps.
Growl and Tettles, you are so unbeliavably out of touch its actually astonishing
It gets harder to listen to them every episode. Their perspective on the problems are fairly skewed.
@@tylerg7933 I start to understand why Dratnos went with Max and Dorki for a podcast
what do you mean tho? their points seem pretty solid, or is it just the meme?
Squishei is the GOAT, the way he steamrolled them with the tuning point was so satisfying
"how interested would you be in mythic+ dungeons utilizing us dropping a nuke on a small town instead of a timer?"
Sign me up
I would quit playing wow if they changed m+ to death based instead of timer
Same, im insta quitting retail if it becomes a thing.
Personally I would be fascinated to peak into the world of a death limit just to see the comp.
Would 5 prot paladins be taken? 3 tank, aug, and healer? Would somehow 1/1/3 be kept?
@@fleshhunter87032 Augs, best DPS, heals and tank. Or possibly two of the best heals and one of each of the rest. Or possibly two tanks and one of the rest lmao. I could definitely see there only being 1 DPS (not counting augs) unless there is a heavy dps check. You’d just have the healer/tank go off spec for that pull though
Deaths would feed the moles to do hour or two hour dungs just for loot and points. M+ is 30 mins of fast paced tactical gameplay. Pugs is 30 mins of testing skill and patience with moles.
M+ without timer is basically RAID lite 😂
Growl at 29:00 your point about does it really matter if you play with someone who is dogshit. Yes for people who only have 1-2 hours a night wasting half or more of that on a failed run is kinda a big deal.
I love the part where everyone agrees that playing in the pug world outside of their friend group would be enough to make them all quit wow. But also, "who cares if people are bad in my group" Logic is next level them.
Not to mention that if it's your key and you're in a position where you are climbing (so you have to use your key) you have to get that 9 back to a 10 (as an example).
@@ZKrinny I agree, but why should you feel entitled to have easy n comfortable gaming experience? Why should that be an automatic privilege?
@@adityasihag4 when its my key why should you be entitled to join it if Id rather have someone else?
Imagine showing in LFG only players with an average play time of
Tettles need to play tank in this season. The active mit and defensive use needed or you die in like 2 globals is super cringe.
I want class tuning/ balance every two weeks. It's ridiculous how long Blizzard let's classes stay in the dumpster or be overpowered.
Not balancing more just for the sake of incidentally shifting the meta so people have to fotm reroll is another 1% take.
Most people play the spec they have fun with or like the fantasy. Everyone should be taken into account not just protecting the meta slaves.
Meta slaves should be ignored
You are very right with this. I play my spec and alt since TBC. I was never complaining
The elitism has been increasing. This pod is at its best if you just skip over the m+ coverage (80% of yapping)
So if most people play the spec that they have fun with or like the fantasy of then why does shifting the meta matter?
Is this meant to be a "gotcha"? Balancing out outliers to try to open up what people can get invited on is beneficial for more players than not. @@yumytv
"Is a bad player in your key really that bad?" When you spend 30min+ getting the group together and another 15-40min bricking the key to only get 5 crests (or even worse just abandon on the last boss) and that is how you spent your whole evening, yes, it is that big of a deal. Most people do one or two keys a night, brick it, and go to bed. You are very obviously not in the trenches with people who don't know how to not stand in bad, let alone use their utility or even press all their CDs every time they're up. Thankfully the changes that went through this week alleviate some of the issues. Honestly tho, this season should've taught everyone to stop pugging and get a team together.
@Valerielives this is a major red flag. Yes a bad player is that bad... like holy shit. I want them to pug an entire season without their entitled "teams" and see how bad it is for real. No fake ass 0 to hero series either.
As a tank, I admit, I don't spend a lot of time waiting in the queue but it's is absolutely soul breaking when the key is broken within the first 10 minutes for stuff objectively out of my control. Like, the dumb ass that ate two frontals and died, leaving the group or the healer is shoving all his externals up his ass and not giving the tank 1 external all key long when I cycled through 4 of them as a prot paladin. I'm sure that healer is tracking cooldown in 4 different places or paying for a UI he doesn't know how to use.
Without experiencing these idiots, no one can defend this point at all.
I can entertain all the other arguments about any aspect of the game but when an entitled healer streamer says a shitter in your group isn't that bad. That triggers me so bad.
100% the dogshit player is bad. I've had tanks in a 5 GB not know to kite on the 2nd boss, and tank the dragon out in the middle of the room, refusing to change because he didn't like doing the corner strat. All 3 keys failed because players are dogshit at this game. Coming from a lukewarm first time healer.
@@artug92All of this.
These three stooges are absolutely tone deaf to 90% of the playerbase which is why they side with blizz idiocy so well.
the most confusing part about the tuning is that some specs ever get touched and others all the time. As a Mage One trick Pony, i always get changes about every spec of my class, which always leads to, changing the specialization, because a new one is meta, and with TWW we got to change Herotalents more than once, because mage always gets tuned and changed. For my M+ Friend group i am playing guardian druid to do some keys and i am so used to check new meta builds from playing mage. I was clearly surprised that Guardian druid never changed anything since beta. How is this a thing in World of Warcraft? Besides the "Mage = Main character" meme.
I haven't heard any DH tuning at all this season and I don't see them around in mplus or raids, I wish my boss let me skip huge portions of my job.
It's so strange, some classes just get left for months on end and others get updated almost monthly
Class changes/mini reworks for 11.1 got announced and shadow priest doesn't even have a single line in there.
lol.
@@k9tirion927 yeh and mage again in with alot of changes, llike i have to study mage everypatch, cuz everything always changes, don't know what to prefer anymore. :D
I picked up tanking this season, but the difficulty of staying alive in M+ has made me all but quit. I'm just raid logging now.
Did they REALLY "fix" Crests and everything is rainbows and sunshine?
One question... If someone just returned with this patch, as a M+ ONLY player, lets do the math and see how many mythic track items they can get in a month, or even two months starting from this week? And that's not counting they gonna have to start from low keys as a returning player and not having enough gear to begin with?
Now let's change that to a returning player in a guild who does mythic raids..... This week alone, carry them through first four bosses easily and bingo! Another week or two and you can see where this is heading, right?
Break the Meta was such a fail event it can't be understated. They allowed Elemental shaman in while not permitting a whole slew of specs like Marks, Fury, Resto druid, Havoc, etc from even taking part. I mean wtf?! Trash event with zero forethought.
I signed up for it and ended up just playing poe2 all week lmao. I'm not even sure if I logged in to check my vault
Cause u don't understand the format. Every class has at least on DPS specc allowed.
@@Painchillerno they don’t
@@Painchiller Don't claim someone doesn't understand the format and then immediately state something completely wrong about the format. Every class has at least one spec in the event, but NOT one DPS spec.
@zuralani1 it was almost 100% correct. Just read the text above the speccs. I only found ret and havor missing
The problem with class tuning is they should buff under representing talent points. How many talents points are never pick because there bad. Then they get a 400% buff and still people wont pick it. They should focus on buffing useless talents that sound or are cool but the damage aint there.
Growls take on rerolling is very cringe. I wanna play my dogshit cat spec every season you can't change me
HOW can you claim "Class balance is pretty good", and "This season has been better than before and it's heading to the right direction" in the SAME freakin sentence that started with "If you are a Hunter main and play on M+, you have probably just quit"? 🙃🙃¯\_(ツ)_/¯
At least listen to yourself first, before continuing to finish your own sentence... 😬😬
The 2500 score / Mythic last boss thing is not just "glowy shoulders". It adds Mythic set animations to non Mythic sets. It's often glowy shoulders yes but can include other animations depending on the set. So e.g. you can mog an LFR tint but have cool Mythic animations on it.
Partially related to overtuned white swings, but one of the more frustrating problems with tanking IMO is that most have a ton of minor DR effects that are generated passively by doing your basic rotation that make pulling extremely painful due to the long ramp-up towards defensive stability. There are several pulls where dying in a couple seconds is a real possibility because your 20-30% total of passive DR effects haven't kicked in yet, on top of having your attention taxed at the same time by trying to gather the mobs together and establish threat.
If you let tanks do dps damage why the fuck are we not playing 5 tanks in a key. You do dps dmg anyways so why take dps, then you have 4 tanks so you dont die and change the healer to a tank too. The issue is not tank dmg its tank survivability.
The thing I hate, as someone who dabbles in tanking is knowing if I pulled too much or too little. Knowing the last few packs are 8% and that I have to get to 92% before starting those makes me feel like I have to do homework before a key. I dont have to do that as a healer or a dps until I get to high keys.
There are weakauras that count for you. It's not so hard to learn a basic route and, fail it once or twice and then ur good
Every tank should have a baseline purgatory-like ability that can only be removed by having a battle rez on you, there needs to be some way for a tank to be BR'd without at least half the group dying.
Like a soulstone? Or quicker?
@@Robin...222 I don't think they should actually have to die, because dieing as a tank for any amount of time just leads to a wipe
Squishei should get exiled for his take on no timer m+, that it would be less meta focused.
It's amazing how such a smart person (seemingly from the outside at least) can have such AWFUL takes about the game
@@StevemcnashTo be fair, his view is skewed. All three of their comments this episode make it difficult to listen to them rant about how things are fine and dandy and problems that are focused on the top 0.1% or lower of players.
They have no real concept for an average player experience.
Just like their take on “how could any one not be totally geared out right now” - says the group of players who don’t pug and have access to consistent Mythic raid loot.
The crest change doesn’t solve the problem and while it was a factor as to why this season went quickly in decline, it wasn’t the sole problem. Just adding a few extra crests as rewards, doesn’t change the fact if you need crests and can do 8s faster than 10s, let alone 11s, why would you waste time in higher keys? Let’s go even further, if you can spam 7s quickly and then trade up 45 at a time for gilded, why even waste time in higher keys for crest farming ? The most efficient use of time and effort will always win.
Now a significant, massive change would be adding exponentially more crests. Instead of 12, we get 30 crests, with no depletion penalty.
They forget most players aren’t chasing IO or higher difficulty/ pushing for title range or even care about that.
Squishey makes a great point, the thing that sucks about WOW balancing is that a class could literally be forgotten about for years at a time or receive two reworks within 6 months (aka ele sham)
The thing is you guys objectively look at class balance and go, alright cool ima play this class since this is what the meta settled on and its more of a decision based on the meta for you all which you dont mind... A LOT of people do not think like this, they want to play what sounds dope AND get invited to groups. Blizzard is horribly inconsistent in the eyes of the average joe who just wants to play ele shaman but its been trash for years, meanwhile theres reworks and tons of other stuff happening for other classes.
another huge thing that yall mentioned is talking to the community... a lot of times a class will literally just not be mentioned AT ALL for so long that you wonder if anyones even working on it... my guess, they arent.
While I would say overall tank dps needs an increase (I'm starting to have some serious threat issues as a bear) it is not my main complaint by far. That is simply not having enough CD's for the amount of tank busters and feeling like my standard mitigation IF does nothing, as well as any mistake I make being insanely punishing (which I don't know how to solve outside of more cheat deaths.)
Its funny how all of the suggestions are basically what we already know is going to be happening in upcoming patches as the tank nerf/overpowered cycle continues to turn.
It looks like there are some tank buster nerfs coming today so I'll try tanking again but honestly I don't expect to be able to go from a proactive play style to a reactive play style which I prefer. So I'll probably spend the rest of the patch on my Ret pally which while harder to find groups has been a hell of a lot more fun and seems to impact keys far more with good defensive and utility play. Its a sad day when I feel I can save the party from wipes more often as ret than I can as a bear.
T1 Growl is terrifying
I love that they never comment on his pfp
Had to comment on the META conversation starting around 15:00. Tettles & Growl seem to be against more frequest tuning because it could change the meta? Huh? This literally only affects the top 0.1% of players who actually FOTM re-roll and care about playing the best comp at all times. For the other 99.9% of players, more frequent tuning would be amazing. Squishei said it best that the goal should be to constantly trend towards a middle line. Buff the classes that are weak, 2 weeks later if they are too strong, nerf them. It becomes a constant balancing game which is the point. Good classes won't be locked in for 6 months and bad classes won't be ghosted for 6 months. This CAN and WILL only result in a more diverse m+ pool of players and will encourage you to just play the classes you like and bring back what makes RPGs good in the first place which is identity and passion. I see literally NO downsides to more frequent tuning. It's not like there won't be high m+ push teams going for R1 anymore, it would just mean that everyone is playing different comps, similar to what we saw in S1 of DF. Even high-end players get gassed out from constantly re-rolling. This would actually discourage you from re-rolling because you know that tuning is done so frequently. The only reason FOTM re-rolling even exists right now is because tuning is not done enough, and everyone knows their class is stuck in whatever good/bad state it's in for likely the entire season.
Gotta agree with Squishei here. It’s not immediately obvious to your layperson when buffs and nerfs are happening. I’m always in favor of incremental buffs to underperformers rather than nerfs in routine cases for good specs - why not try a biweekly thing but stop 6-8 weeks before gearing ends so that the title picture can shake out, and there’s more time to progress where needed?
I just want blizz to based every decision they do on tank power/key depletion/crests/mythlockout etc. on a simple question "Does it increase the % of time people are actually doing the content vs finding a group to do the content". I think they are way to tighed up on their idea on how people should play the game and what should be fun.
1:30:30 the exact key I stopped tanking this season was a Dawnbreaker 8! That I was tanking for a friend on my VDH with an otherwise pug group where I landed in the consecration for 2nd miniboss and pulled the 2 packs in front of the small stairs. 2 DPS decided to dive bomb into the miniboss and wiped to it, making it a 4 pack pull that I successfully survived and they downed after multiple deaths. One of the dive bombing DPS called me shit for not doing the "standard" route - I told him the ground rule was to follow tank's route in DB. More flaming so I sniped him every chance I got for the remainder of the key. That solidified my choice of just calling it quits at portals.
Don't know what people try to prove with this "once I met these two idiots in dungeon xy" stories. If I had left every game I played like this, I would have quit online gaming at all
Growl’s motto: huehuehuehue, players are stupid.
11:00
22:06 Growl so you are saying that classes that are underperforming should never get buffed because you do not like it at the top 0.1% of people.
Remember that there are 99.9% of people around that you are now asking the balance team to ignore.
Even if we go to the 1% you are still going against a lot of people.
Also why should we listen to growl the guy who ALWAYS leave to play wow classic.
He does not even play the game at the moment.
Yes I said that there should never be balance changes ever in world of warcraft. Great listening comprehension
@@yumytv You are saying that there should not be changes in the meta because of the top 0.1% would not like it.
While you are ignoring that the wast majority of players this would be a good thing for.
You also have not actually followed what classes are being meta is the same ones over and over and over again.
If you at least had a turn over where everyone will be meta at some point you have a reason to stick with what you are already playing, as the game is now it rewards FOTM players over people who play what they find fun to play.
Remember you want the game to not change for a total of 49 897 characters (this is the number done 15 and up in the world) so say 50k people is we assume 1 character per person.
These people might not like it they might like it if they played with it we do not know.
What we do know is that is not a lot of people compared to how many are doing m+.
And you are willing to sacrifice 99% of the playerbase so that the specific group you are in will have no changes.
(the same group you are leaving to play Classic all the time for)
It is the classic response to the topics of people wanting rewards to just be right under where they are, and that is what you are doing here trying to gatekeep.
@miatomi OK I was apparently not clear, I was talking over expansions season after season over expansions.
It is the same specs over and over again.
@miatomi Yes you are against what Growl said I see good
@@yumytv just stop having takes man. get your bad opinion grounded to reality. the more i listen the podcasts the more i get infuriated. you are out of touch , your arguments are elitist/ bad .
if that 5% of damage difference between classes doesnt matter as you claim, guess what, why are you fotming then? you havent done a single world first key that actually matters this season when truly no other class can do and its the actual small % that enables the keys. i see so many classes atm timing the same keys you timed, so why you rerolled? why did you play your part in creating that meta that reverberates into lower brackets?
JUST STOP HAVING THOSE ATROCIOUS TAKES MY MAN. or please someone replace him in this podcast ........ It reminds me the same shitty behaviour/attitude/bad take that started in dragonflight with you shitting on disc priest and ruining the chances of low bracket discs to join because somehow word gets spread. gtfo my man . you went from literally my favourite wow content creator in SL , to one of the worst,most elitist,bad takes one . how did that happen? maybe you have to remind yourself what made you great ?
io doesn't translate to skill precisely for the reason tettles brought up re: squishei's "i only do 10s" mythic raider guildmates. i am in the same position, mythic raider without a team and not playing a turbo meta spec, stopped at 2700 io bc i'm not pushing for title. but i'm a lot more skilled than the random "i only do m+ and capped at a 10" wow player.
IO does not = skill
Lack of IO while actively pushing does give you a pretty good idea, though
Squishei once again retaining the man of the people title.
The tuning changes is a clown fiesta in terms of consistencies, and won’t even listen to feedback from classes that have serious issues.
1:43:05 every pack has a tank buster so that tanks can't pull 5 packs at once. That would be fun and Blizzard needs to prevent fun at all costs
I can't be alone in thinking that the game would be better if the resources to make another island was used for more end-game content (ie, a raid or dungeon).
The prospect of doing the chores required to get a ring is a massive turn off for me. For some people that is new content that they enjoy (new quests, new item), but I really dislike doing quests at max level in general.
teams that work on 11.0.X patch are not the same that works on 11.1 and this isle was done on BFA
@@elxjasonx the point is, that even those resources (as little or distinguishable you're making them out to be) would be better suited to bolster that 11.1 timeline/content.
depends on the island. Nazjatar and Mechagon were great. Forbidden reach was bad.
@@MrkraZzz ahh see, I also was annoyed doing both of those too, especially on alts. I just want to log in and do some keys or whatever I need to do.
Squishie coming in with the last minute news is the best ongoing bit
as a mage, I don't want constant retuning because I have had to learn too many new talent builds/rotations across arcane and frost this season
1:48:30 - "Going to the Dungeon is social"
I will never forget the day during WotLK when they implemented the Warlock Summoningcloset and effectively broke all summons in the game for a few days. No Warlock summons, no meetingstones, nothing. People were AFKing in Dalaran demanding to be summoned to Vault of Archavon (instead of just going to the portal that was up in Dalaran to get sent there instantly) and when told that Summons was borked in the entire game they just left the group.
Similarly so many times we were waiting for someone to run a Heroic dungeon which took 20-30min, and I was the only person who flew down to Howling Fjord while the other 4 sat in Dalaran spamming "Sumplz" or "123". When I said I was along at the stone and one of them had to come down to help summon they just bailed.
I don’t think it’s a consistency or timing thing with tuning, I think it’s that blizzard is HISTORICALLY silent to acknowledge almost any issues. I can understand them missing the mark on class or boss tuning or if a weird bug comes up or exploit, that happens. But to say absolutely nothing until the patch notes is infuriating & frankly disrespectful. They would garner a lot more goodwill if they would make a small lil post saying “hey, we know this is a problem, we’re working on it”
Tons of garbage takes in this, they really need some casual voices. No casual average person will reroll for M+, no casual person even does m+ because dedicatimg that large of a chunk of time with no ability to step away is complete garbage.
Io is like a resume, it just shows your experience then it’s up to your employer to gauge your skill
It’s so funny how true this is.
Well no.
Because it always rests every season.
I think the issue that many DPS have (speaking anecdotally from talking to people in my guild) is that enhancement is doing like 21% more damage than the median DPS, post nerfs. DPS care about the damage meters and your average FOTM reroller is probably going to do 1-5% more damage minimum than someone good at their class in the average range. It doesn't feel good for those players knowing they played better but performed worse. There will always be a meta and I don't think the goal should be to disrupt that. Instead try to reduce the discrepancy. This type of balancing might even have the added upside of taking that one-trick over the Meta.
I play Prot Warrior and it is super annoying that Prot Paly does 30% more damage. I was a one-trick Prot Warrior all of 2024 and first timed Prot Paly this season on an alt. I was doing more damage at 615 than I was doing on my 630 Warrior. Surely, there can be a middle ground here.
Go colossus on your warrior for more dps.
@@havtor007 Sacrificing defense, rage, utility, and a fun rotation/playstyle for more damage doesn't seem like a great option. Especially, when that Paly example I sacrifice nothing.
@JBX5677JB Hahahahaha well if you think the paladin example sacrifice nothing that shows how little you know about prot paladin.
Yes you do not sacrifice as much but the moment you say nothing you are just wrong
@@havtor007 You admitted you don't sacrifice much. Strange that your response would be laughing. You also said I don't know anything about Prot Palidin for this opinion without any substance. Great argument! Very intelligent!
@havtor007 Also, you folded like a kite on defending your colossus switch. Your mind is pathetic, that is what is funny.
What gets you back to playing tank?
agency over my own life
make routing more interesting. have a basic w route in there, but give us options.
dps, tank in aoe should compete with the dps. because it´s fun. and on ST it should at least do 80%. because that is fun. Especially in raid when you live anyway it´s just soo boring when tank do not do much ST dmg and it doesn´t matter what you press.
better hero talents for most of the tanks, brew is so broing, DH is very boring, Bear is not inspiring...DK also again is 100% locked into talents more or less like in DF.
I was gonna listen to the Spotify podcast but had to go on YT to comment how out of touch they still are.
Changing the meta even monthly would be great, screw FoTM players and gives every class an equal opportunity to be good when they fall behind.
From a 2,5k RIO and AOTC every season dadgamer: I just want to play the game, have fun and be rewarded for the time i invest into the game. At any time where Blizzard is preventing any of those 3 things, thats when my season is over. That was like a month and a half ago, at the myth and gilded gating threshold. Game got really stale when i reached that, and thats when my subscription was frozen. If Blizzard wants me to play for longer, thats where they need to make a change.
I only play keys for gear. Something I like to use at the start of the season when deciding about applicants is looking at their raid progress. If they killed a boss that is pretty difficult that is a decent indicator that they have hands. If they can handle those bosses it's also likely that they will be able to handle 10s. I'd rather take players like those over others who have higher scores.
Obviously when you go over 10s raid experience is less relevant. But I don't do that so I don't care about it.
My gut reaction to Squishei's questions about cosmetic: sure, if the game moves to free to play. Otherwise I don't want to see it.
Every MMO that has gone free to play, has gone down the dumpster, save a few exceptions. If blizz released a blog post that wow was going free to play at the end of midnight, I'd enjoy the last expansion for wow, because there's a good chance it's going pay to win.
I wonder if Growl is cognizant of how he rambles sometimes. He loses me after a 5 minute only breathing once rant.
Same
To make tanks fun, make their AoE higher and to be competitive with the lowest dps’er. And make it so they scale their dps higher with mobs relative to DPS.
Make healers single target competitive with low tier dps. Tanks and healers want to flex on their dps.
The "Do you care so much about playing with a garbage player" is just a high level player take. In a +12 or higher, a garbage player kills the key: by doing subpar dps, especially on bosses that have a dps check phase, by constantly dying and draining time, by relying on them to dispel curses/poisons or doing some specific task (i.e. ranged intrerupt on the 2nd boss of Stonevault), and them not doing it. When you do 90% of your keys with a specific party or pug with viewers that you hand pick, this happens less, but for a player that just wants to improve, a 12 is what a 17 is for Growl, and he doesn't want to tank the key because of one player.
If you just wanted to improve then you wouldn't care if people in your key aren't that good because you are focused on your own gameplay. You would realize you have a LONG way to go from a 12 to a 17 and one or two random trashcans in your groups wont really change that path. However, if you didn't care about improving and only wanted to move up because you believe you deserve to be higher ranked than you are - then yeah you are going to get frustrated at other people depleting your keys.
@yumytv I wasn't saying that a 12 is equal to a 17 in difficulty, but rather that it feels as hard for a casual that found his level there as a 17 feels for a title pusher. And if you have 4 players like this in a party, and one is dragging his feet, the other four will not be able to carry his weight. That is why I think people are so picky when forming a group.
I totally disagree with the players that are 2.6k rating and wait 30 mins to form a group with 3k+ players. That is just entitlement and waiting for people to carry you.
Also, for most people there is the time commitment. A key takes about an hour (from posting the group to finish). When you play for 3 hours a day, it feels like you threw your whole day away after 2 keys deplete from silly mistakes.
And the curent M+ difficulty structure is totally out of whack. The walls at 10 and 12 are massive. It feels like there are a few keystone levels missing there and players are scared to deplete and prefer to spend an hour in group finder waiting for good players to "boost" them.
EDIT FACTOID: we love the smell of cooked meat because of the Millard reaction (the reaction of exposing protein to heat). Cooking meat heavily decreases the chance of getting sick after eating it, so through evolution, the brain has been coded to like the smell of cooked meat, so we want to do it and not die.
Balance patches like what is coming out today could happen every other week. Affliction lock is not becoming meta from this patch- it’s just bringing up the bottom (except unholy… I think they’re pretty good even before this at their niche).
They could do more balancing of bringing up the bottom specs at all times, I think. Don’t shake up the meta regularly, but making every spec viable for high-ish keys hurts nobody.
Editing to add: they could announce when they expect meta shifts to happen would do a lot. I think everyone would like blizzard to just communicate more.
IO provides a rough outline and to some degree a skill floor, but io is very positively correlated with number of keys run as each key run will never lower your io, but if the key is untimed yet, has a chance to positively increase score. So even if you're only timing 10% of rating keys, if you're running 40 keys a week you'll climb in io, but be a worse player than someone at the same rating who times 40% of rating keys but only does 8 keys a week. Also, like mentioned since you just need a single good run to gain io, with enough reps, even a mediocre player can luck into a group carry.
WoW has the worst on-boarding experience in gaming. Add to that a total lack of in-game information, unintuitive and complexity-for-complexity's sake gameplay and systems design, and it's a wonder there are any new players at all. I've really enjoyed TWW so far, but I couldn't imagine spending any more than a few hours in the game as a completely fresh player rather than a 20-year veteran. Oh, and MAKE THE TIMER OPTIONAL. That's all they have to do, make a tick box to activate the timer.
Maybe ask tanks what would they like to change? Just an idea. Making tanks top dps chart is a horrible idea. Tanks need to be cool and tanky. Pulling huge packs and being your own orchestra, unnerf tanks.
I feel like its a recurring theme that someone brings up something that many players dislike as an anxiety and then Growl goes "I am a man of the people, I know anxiety, but theres no point being anxious about that." The world just is not a place where people either like things or are anxious about them. I'm not anxious about raw tomatoes, they dont scare me, I just dislike them.
Timers are a very commonly disliked mechanism in video games. Go to the now ancient boards for Final Fantasy 13-3 or maybe Legend of Zelda Majoras Mask and you will find tons and tons of people complaining about the timers.
Its just a reality that fast is not every players favourite playstyle. Many players would prefer to be able to tackle more difficult mythic plus dungeons by taking their time, planning out easier routes and CC and strategies, whatever it takes. Its not reasonable to just handwave all that away as "people are anxious".
All that said, I do think that if you took away the timer and left it in favour of deaths it would be an actual tragedy in pugs. Maybe if it was wipes instead of deaths the way the death counter originally worked in delves before they changed it that might be alright, but just deaths means you could get actually boned even running keys that are plenty easy for you just by having a random pug who is not able to stay out of the fire.
*Edit* I just wanted to add because it seems also common that there is confusion as to why people dont care to run things that "exist" in the game to fill some "desire" for a certain game mode. The vast majority of players who are not pushing keys higher than 12 care about 1 thing and 1 thing only - loot. They dont run the dungeons because they are "fun" (although most probably wouldnt run them if they werent at least fun) they run them for the rewards. If you are trying to ask players who push higher than 10ish whether they are like that, of course they arent, that game mode is by definition for people who dont care about rewards since it offers no rewards. The vast majority of players though only care about rewards, so you could introduce the absolute funnest game mechanic to ever exist ever and give it no loot and almost no one will play it.
16:00 so radical idea that blizzard will never do : move to bi-weekly class tuning and gear becomes warbound so you can always switch (basically low sunk cost in switching) toons
this is a major red flag. Yes a bad player is that bad... like holy shit. I want them to pug an entire season without their entitled "teams" and see how bad it is for real. No fake ass 0 to hero series either.
As a tank, I admit, I don't spend a lot of time waiting in the queue but it's is absolutely soul breaking when the key is broken within the first 10 minutes for stuff objectively out of my control. Like, the dumb ass that eat two frontals and died, leaving the group or the healer is shoving all his externals up his ass and not giving the tank 1 external all key long when I cycled through 4 of them as a prot paladin. I'm sure that healer is tracking cooldown in 4 different places or paying for a UI he doesn't know how to use.
Without experiencing these idiots, no one can defend this point at all.
I can entertain all the other arguments about any aspect of the game but when an entitled healer streamer says a shitter in your group isn't that bad. That triggers me so bad.
Some friends literally just don’t like the go fast nature of M+, these are friends that like classic, rouge like games that have deliberate play etc. I think it’s boring af, but that’s why they don’t like the timer.
Yo, @Squishy, Corruptions as Embelishments would so sick. I thought the corruption effects like Twilight Devastation, Infinite Stars, Lash of the Void, Echoing Void, and Ineffable Truth were so cool. Even having the secondary % stat ones wouldn't be OP like they were cause you could only have 2 of them.
24:55 BTM does *NOT* base which specs are eligible based off what is good or bad, they look at the *popularity* of specs in each role starting at a +5. That is why survival hunter is in BTM, but marksman isnt even though marksman is clearly much worse than survival right now. The fact that those specs are in BTM does not make them bad specs or even underperforming specs, just unpopular at low key levels (or in the case of ele required so the class has a spec in the event).
I do agree with the overall notion that non-meta specs can do higher content than most people think if the player behind the screen is good, but just wanted to say that using BTM as the "look at these bad specs doing this" doesnt really work when those specs (survival, outlaw, ele) are significantly better than specs that weren't even eligible for BTM (marksman, havoc, arcane, etc).
removing the timer will push away so many players , i think blizzard don't wanna admit that they messed up , i know they did it once for sl , but now its like " we can't say we messed up twice" , everyone ask for peril nerfs , everyone ask for tanks to be tanky , and healers to get less stress healing , but instead of lowering the damage on the +4 to +10 range so everyone can be a happy camper , we get this bs survey , just let people do their +18 like in df weekly myth track , its not that complicated , everyone had a good time doing df s 3 , i hang out with my friends doing that stuff with no issue , it was a fun time , but now its so complicated and hardcore for no reason , too much of challenging content is always bad , you have to find a sweet spot , and that was df s3 , bring that bs back.
I mean: Besides IO Blizz can release more Data. Give them a "Kick", "Stun" "Overall" and "Boss-Dmg" Highscore. Let other people see, that not only the person was be able to pay a Boostgroup for his 2500 IO Score, bring them the opportunity to show their actual Skilllvl ingame.
1:05:30 Tettles is spot on, all of that stopped me from really giving WoW a fair shot until after I had graduated from college and had the disposable income
Anyone who doesn't like a timer can just... do delves? I'm not understanding why they would ruin one game mode just to implement another that already exists. Hopefully they see the light.
Right? I don't like PVP (anymore) so I decided to NOT do it? Novel concept but not everything in this video game is meant for everyone.
No timer M+ with solo Q could be interesting. First, having no timer is probably the only viable option for solo Q to begin with, unless we want to climb the charts of most toxic systems in gaming. Second, with the well design rewards and progression structure, meaning it has reduced rewards and probably caps out at +10-12 key difficulty, it could be a supplementary system for timed M+ where it serves two purposes, - it's a great stepping stone for people seeking entering M+ scene and it could even be something you do when you don't have your group online, instead of dealing with group finder boss.
so blizzard should listen to the emta classes 1/3 over the other 2/3 ? Yeah that will make more players play the gamexD
1:19:42 Thought about this that there is no reason m+ can't have multiple win conditions. No doubt many people have done keys when you are just over the timer by like 1 - 2 mins plus the group played really well still and that situation should be rewarded still.
Now I'm not saying to remove the timer but you have parallel win conditions.
For example: it's the timer OR a certain number of deaths. This way you can still shoot for the timer but if you go over by even 1 second you have the back up that the group only had 7 deaths.
Growl: im gonna cook and let yall speak, instantly goes into a fucking monolog 😂
growl and tettles so condencending its crazy.
we all understand how the balance works at the moment, the discussion should be if it is acceptable to have this balance pattern in 2024/25
Honestly the whole "meta is okay thing" is not exactly wrong but it misses the point completely. The fact that all healers can do a 16-17 is actually irrelevant when you can't play the game or get invited to groups. The perception of the meta and it's influence on group finder is far, far more relevant to the community then the nuts and bolts of what any class can do if optimally piloted.
As an aside, I continue to believe that class-based rewards would do more for the m+ meta then any other balancing change possibly could (except maybe removing aug).
BRUH... gtfo with that anxiety bs... if you feel anxious about a game mode because of a timer.. dont play that mode... problem solved.
Removing timer from m+ is just dumb af... get rid of or nerf challenger's peril and the m+ situation would be 90% fixed.
How’s that extended mythic track going Growl? I remember you saying you liked the longer gearing path
A good system that could accompany IO is to have an add-on that would take the number of interrupts, dispels, defensive, cc's, and self-heals, etc, you do though the whole dungeon and it would give you a score, every dungeon you run that factors into your "play" score
I remember the last time tanks did BIG damage was the last season of BFA with twilight dev and lemme tell you there were no shortage of tanks that season. There were sooo many tanks actually that people were doing 30 man tank runs on heroic raid and clearing the raid often.
I always find it strange when people wave something away as a "social issue". Blizzard, and for that matter anyone, can't change social dynamics. What they can change is the incentives, to play tank for instance. If the incentives are strong enough, the negative effect of social dynamics can be overcome by the positive effects of, say, tank gameplay being super poggers.
At 29 growl talking about "who cares about players being dogshit" that was a fair point the last couple of seasons but this season keys feel uncarryable, too many kicks, too many factors to go wrong and too many mechanics people just have no idea about, its very frustrating this season to have a random dumbass completely brick your shit
IO is an image of your performance in keys; your performance in keys is an image of your skill. It's not perfect, but no rating system can be perfect because it's always an image and generally even an image of an image.
About a parallel dungeon mode with no timer: it would be great to have a practice mode to help new players and friends who aren’t used to the dungeon pool. Make it a 3-level penalty so they’re not worth farming.
Edit: and maybe they only allow practice mode up to 12 (rewarding as if it’s a 9).
look at it this way crest farming by just dying in keys and being forced out saves time and u still get crests :)
You just spend all this time explaining why we need solo queue. If the single biggest obstacle to playing the game is getting an invite to a group, you’ve lost the point entirely. Just put in solo queue and manage the new problems that arise, but the one issue you’ll never have is “I can’t play the game because no one will invite me”. That is quite literally the e death of a game. I want to play, but I can’t.
Does Growl ever finish a thought?
Nerfing external damage for tanks and healers makes sense to avoid all tanks runs and all healer runs for example. I do agree that if there is a "fun" trinket or an over tuned item that it should not be nerfed to unusable. I have no idea what would be the right play for balancing that.
One thing that has been a shower thought for a while is that they add a spec buff like tanks in the M+ instance will give a passive buff like "for every other tank get 50% more damage taken and done". this would be across the 3 specs, you can even make it sub spec type for melee, ranged. This is not a perfect system as well and would need refinement but this would help prevent nerfing external damage from items and trinket, and would prevent cheese strats like 2 tank groups and so on.
I think it was skirted around to say that tanks aren’t allowed to do dps amounts of damage because then why bring dps? Maybe for trinkets it doesn’t matter, but, generally, I don’t think blizzard wants damage tanks to be a thing.
I think the solution for tanking is to remove some defensive cds and put that passive damage reduction into doing your damage rotation intelligently. Make shield slam give you shield block or something.
Defensive bloat ruins this game.
The crest change is good for a season start but it misses the point that it doesnt help with alt crest acquisition for alts.
You still need a ludicrous amount of dungeon runs to get your crest cap (and this is what they could fix to keep players playing this deep in the season).
Love the take on classic wow, arriving at the dungeon. Nice story.
With regards to the M+ without a timer, I agree no timer would cause people to wait on CDs and such.
But what about a way to pause the timer in case something happens? Everyone stands still, cooldowns do not recover. That way if an emergency happens, or someone's Uber Eats shows up, or the dog is about to shit, it is perfectly fine!
I think the fundamental problem with tanking is this: When I play dps, i press a button and health bars go down. When I play healer, I press a button and health bars go up. When I play tank, I press a button and health bars don't *really* go down. I do a big thunder clap on prot warrior and it has a big booming sound effect and mobs take like 0.5% of their health bars. It's just plain less dopamine than the other roles. "Not dying" is the absence of a negative, not the presence of a positive, so it doesn't make the brain feel good in the same way. Tanks need a way to get that big dopamine hit and they just don't get it in the current m+ paradigm. You can't even do big hero pulls and feel like a gigachad for being able to live it, because your dps get machine gunned down and there's 5000 kicks going off that your team can't handle. And now there's 70 tank busters and you can't live it anyway!
your missing whats killing wow its all the system that label skill all the parses raider IO warcraft logs , all this data is out there and the truth is there's not that many good players there a lot of players in the middle and they just simply dont reflect well on all these bnech mark factors . Think about it you want to do keys in pugs but you only want to invi the top 5 % of all the players combined who do keys at any given season and then your even more so only one wanting key roles from those people
I feel like they need to make tank deaths less punishing. Maybe if the tank dies there could be a window of time where the rest of the party dying doesnt count toward the timer. Because as it is a tank death effectively counts as 5 deaths and that feels pretty bad and gets people more tilted over tanks making mistakes.
I think the purpose behind the embellishments is too ensure that the player interacts with the crafting system (for at least 2 crafts). The cynical side of me would say, too ensure that at least a portion of the player base has a "valid" reason to invest into paying for a token, to be able to make said crafts.
1:25:00 I'm probably wierd but I always had the opposite pressure, tanking always felt more like "gaming with the homies" because while my DPS is nice it's not the difference between winning and losing. As long as I don't fall over it's fine. I also dont pug as a tank tho so IDK.
Regarding changing the timer to deaths. I wish they would just remove key depletion so it feels less bad when you don't time. Maybe still give vault credit but give no crests so people are still incentivized to run lower keys for time for crests. Or maybe drop the vault reward 3 ilvls if you don't time so you have to complete a 11 or a 12 to get the max vault you would get for timing a 10. Depletion is just what makes the system of not timing a key feel terrible and makes it feel more stressful. Lots of knobs blizz could turn to make keys not depleting a beneficial thing for the system.