We elected Growl as President of the Mole People, and for what? The moleconomy is in shambles due to Tettles' molenipulation. Corruption goes all the way to the top of molethic plus content creators.
fr lol. he seems at first open to the idea that his takes sometimes are bad, but then right at the last second he lets the defensive part of him win out and he makes some "ehhh f you guys, I stick by what I said, moving on, next topic" and it's like DAMNIT we were so close to him admitting some kind of fault or error, but at the last second he reversed course :( lol
Growl being criticized: "Stay mad, kid" Tettles being criticized: Growl absolutely pops off with some real shit about his Rio or username carrying him. This was a fuckin banger episode guys. I loved the whiplash of completely out of touch and in touch takes back and forth.
Feels like Tettles is trying to make his case of that he is not out of touch with the pug scene, but he is just shooting his own foot and making it worse.
It's okay to accept that you're out of touch and don't understand other people's perspective. I wish Tettles would do a series trying to push rating on a new character without help from friends and his community.
@@Bobington11 What's an acceptable rating for him to reach in pugs? I'd say anything past 10s, you're doing keys for the sake of pushing rating. So let's call the benchmark for Tettles all 12s. With a 622+ character, tettles is CERTAINLY capable of pugging all 12s. Sure, he will brick a key here or there on the journey, but he will also contribute far more to his group than the average pug would because he is a skilled player. Tettles is talking about wanting the design to be DAMAGE CHECKS vs SURVIVABILITY CHECKS. High keyers constantly harp on this design issue, and it constantly gets worse. I feel like I'm losing my mind. Either both of you are hard stuck in 10s and blaming it on others or you're so insufferable people don't want to group with you. Or I'm just feeding the trolls.
@@batguy5030 or you just don't understand. There are multiple different things that people have issues with. Personal skill accounts for 1 of 5 people. You can play perfectly, but you still need enough of your group members to also know what's going on. You can absolutely push your rating and keep progressing, but you will run into a much higher failure rate than he seems to grasp. Growl hit it on the head when he said that Tettles' rating and ilvl put him into better groups with a better chance of success. You have to push through all the wasted time and effort to finally get some progress when you don't start a head.
@@Bobington11 "organized groups fail less than disorganized pugs" wow thats so crazy. Why is that a problem? Pugging 10s is easy, you want pugging 12s to be easy too?
Tettles feeling insecure about having no idea what the typical gameplay loop looks like for someone that doesn't dedicate their job to this game is awfully strange.
Tettles quotes weren't "taken out of context". He didn't provide the context. People aren't mind readers. His explanation after the act makes sense but that's not what he said last week.
Squishei: "the one thing that I think I've seen a lot, a lot of comments a lot of people saying this affix prevents me from t- like the second you full wipe this affix it prevents you from timing the key and that could not be further from the truth."
Tettles: "I also have a hot take that you probably shouldn't be timing key if you're full wiping (*Squishei seems to agree*), like... can you time a key if you full wipe? Yes. I think if you have a full wipe though, even if it's to trash though, like that's a situation where I feel like the the amount of situations of which you are able to recover and still time that key should not be plentiful. Like it shouldn't be the norm to have a full wipe and time a key. Like if you have five deaths over the course of the entire dungeon that's different than full wiping to a pack or to a boss or something." That's literally the full context. Like really, people can't just say "that was taken out of context" when they can just go back and *look at the context*
Problem with pug scene is that there is no 'progressing' a key. First sign of trouble everyone leaves and the group doesn't learn anything. How to fix that problem? No freaking clue at all. Easy to say just find a static group. Personally I'd have to find multiple since i work a rotating shift.
The problem is that you're only personally progressing, but only if you did something that contributed to the failure. If your pug tank dies two times on the first pull and leaves, you learned nothing. It doesn't become impossible, it becomes time consuming.
You learned to the point you wiped. You learned what caused the wipe. Go ahead and trie again. Thats the problem ppl dont want to keep going either because lfg takes too long or because they are just bad and think its unjust for them not having everythig set on a plate for them.
@@hugofreitas6799 but me learning it doesn't change anything because MY knowledge isn't the only factor. I learned literally day 1 you shouldn't stack the Skarmorax debuff or you will just die to the vuln stacks. Me knowing that means LITERALLY NOTHING when the Enh Shaman goes to their own add away from everyone else and explode it with a Tempest or whatever and 2 stacks us and we just explode in a 10. Yeah, my knowledge of progression totally mattered and "learning" it AGAIN here SURELY means it won't ever happen again in another group right????
This would be so easy to fix, but Blizzard does not want to. Simply add a public counter on how many dungeons the character has been in and how many they have timed and how many they have finished. This info would be next to their M+ score. So when they apply to your key you would see something like 50 starts, 45 finishes, 30 timed runs and when you get someone who has significantly more starts than finishes you know not to invite them. Another simple option would be to add everyones proving grounds rank, sure it isn't nearly as good, but it would be a good indicator if they can even kick casts since back in the day when a silver rank was needed to queue heroic dungeons a lot of people complained that it was impossible. It should be so that you couldn't queue for M+ keys without gold or just show their rank so everyone can judge for themselves.
The issue with keys is that the design philosophy for dungeons has changed since the key system was last updated/changed. Keys now require progression more in line with raid progression and the key system does not support this type of progression, it actually makes it exponentially more time consuming and difficult, therefore frustrating for the community. Imagine if when you wiped on a mythic raid boss you had to go kill it on heroic before you could try again.
There's also just dead key levels that feel AWFUL to get stuck in. The obvious examples are 6 and 9. Your +10 Mists will probably fill in 30 seconds full of overqualified juicers. If something goes awry (idk tank doesn't mit Anima Slash and chain dies) and causes a disband your key now turns into a +9 Mists. I mean it shouldn't be that bad to just run it back right let's just relist it.....and no one is signing up besides people probably 10 IL lower and also unable to do 10s, but since no one wants to actually do 9s you are kind of just stuck with it and are lead down the garbage deplete spree. Funnily enough it would probably unironically be easier to drop it AGAIN to an 8 where you again get the juicers signing up for the easiest Gilded Crest level and aiming for a 2 chest.
@@amethonys2798 Its not that much dead keys levels, but there are specifically dead keys. Like if you get 9 mist who cares there will be always people joining as that is the easiest key. But imagine you push your key and get 10 city of threads and you are like nice i'm done for the week. But yeh overall i agree blizzard is trying to push like that toxic mindset that everything should have 100 different mechanics as the game is old and classes got way too many abilities since last time we had any major pruning like legion and you need to satisfy players that have been doing the same for 10 years or more on top of weakauras going out of control don't think the current format really support that. I wish m+ was a bit more like the past most of the stuff was a bit more trivial and you just had to improve primarily your damage to progress or pull bigger and being able to chain cc a trash pack in more uncoordinated manner with mostly mass crown controls with some other healing check to satisfy healers and way less fucking defensives to deal with that just felt more fun.
@t.g7545 specifically with CoT the only issue I really have with the dungeon is like 70% of the difficulty is Izo where you don't find out the key is bricked until almost 30 minutes in because you can't meet the heal check. Funnily enough this is the exact reason Blizzard cited for nerfing Melandris in CoS back in DF S1 and straight up repeated the problem. I suppose the one big difference is you were at least alloted one or more full wipes to Melandris due to a more lenient timer and spawning practically at the boss. If you wipe to Izo you are simply not timing the key because the run back is literally 2 minutes and the fight takes like 3+ on what feels like one of the tighter timers of the season.
@@amethonys2798 There are multiple ways to brick the key not just izo. You can brick it by bad tank routes like going to the right into the most caster heavy packs considering every bolt does like 60%+ of your health. You can brick it by someone important getting stunned by the orb on first boss. Even second boss is maybe harder than anything in mist pretty much like tank can die from the rime or people not using defensives during overlaps and it have bigger runback than izo maybe longest run back in the game. Coag have nasty healing + defensives check too. I had more smooth izo kills often than first 3 bosses.
Imagine not getting loot when not timing a key as you don't get loot for wiping on a boss, being able to drop loot which no one can use because of group loot as M+ is still personal loot, or having to do 11-13-15 keys to unlock mythic track same as raids as raids bosses difficulty for your great vault scales higher the more slots you want. It is still funny for me that M+ players think they got it bad compared to raids and we haven't even touched the time you need to spend to keep a guild together. It is funny you're trying to say that M+ is more time consuming when people are wiping 100-400 times on raid bosses and are extending weeks after weeks with no loot often. And even more funny, consider that most mythic raid players still do M+ so it's not like they aren't doing that content too.
For those of you who want to hear the quote from Tettles, it is at 9:26min into the video "THE WORST PATCH IN WOW'S HISTORY?? The Bench Ep. 14. Quote: "I also have a hot take that you probably shouldn't be timing a key if your full wiping". I'm sorry Growl, tettles sounded like he meant that statement as is.
I think he meant in his view of how wow should be. Meaning of it we're up to him, it would be less mechanically intensive, but more punishing time wise. He spoke about that last episode too
As someone who got all their portals done in the first few weeks i can tell you for a fact that after going back and doing lower keys on alts, theyre all miserable. If you didn't get a jump on them right away those lower keys feel like an actual nightmare. Its like being stuck in elo hell in other games. You're playing with people who barely know how to play their class. Nothing gets interrupted and no one uses their defensives. I gave up on most of my alts since i dont really have anyone to play with as is.
Bro you've explained this perfectly. I pushed 3130io a few weeks ago and i've been trying to gear a new alt, exclusively pugging so i've had to start in low keys with it. and my god not 1 brain cell was to be found, absolutely miserable experience
As a healer I completely agree, any key below 7 or 8 that you join is a monumental clownfiesta most of the time. Unironically harder to heal than a 10+.
@@_Traveyout of touch with what? Casual dad gamers? lol They’re very much in touch with anyone who plays the game seriously. That’s the whole point. If you’re more casual, it’s fun to listen to people discuss the game in a way you don’t play it as well. Win win I’m not a rwf or title key player. I’m 2.8k io and aotc at 631 ilvl pres evoker. I’m much more serious than the average player, but definitely not a true sweat.
One of the big disappointments as a healer with things like the Cyrce's Circlet is you never get to choose the actual "healing/shield" component. It's always too weak, so you wind up taking damage or a secondary stat. The shield is currently 250K, so unless it procs at least every 20s, it won't be used. The water heal is about 280K split between 2 players. The sea shanty to 5 allies only heals for 25K/second over 5 seconds. Those don't feel very strong to me, and definitely not strong enough to provide some leeway into the next season as the dev interview said. Hopefully they get tuned up.
@@_reenzane raid bosses drop 15 crests, so it would be a much faster way to get gilded crests than spamming 8s, especially if you account for having to sit in LFG between runs if you're pugging keys.
I feel like theres a big perspective difference when you play 20-50 keys a week vs 1-4. When you do 1-4 keys a week, a single failure is a big deal. It only takes one goober to make you think that some lower level difficulty is too hard for pugs. Bruh... I have like 4 crafted pieces now because the only way for me to get myth track is through the vault and I've gotten nothing out of 3 of them.
Just wanted to point out in the whole key success rate section Tettles never said historically or anywhere near that sense in the last podcast on ep 14 he starts talkin about it at 14 mins.. This is his quote: " for high end players you typically have a 50% success rate on keys right, you time a 14, you go to a 15, you go back to a 14 and go back and forth until you end up reaching a spot where you're done progging that level of keys and you get into the next level thats what the high key experience is. For most players they don't interact with that at all, there is no progging keys right. Their progression typically happens via gear and they will have probably a 75-80% key success rate on the entire season in some instances depending on the player."
I don't think he's wrong about that for people who hit a certain level and just stay there. I hit whatever is highest key rewards wise every season (KSM or KSH) and then just stick to that level since I don't care about pushing higher keys.
Their perspective is skewed because they play the game a lot. It’s their job. I’ve been guilty of this in seasons I get real sweaty with my play time. If I have 2 hours to play a day and I’m “progging” a lower level key and it bricks it hurts momentum. I’m not even talking about a 10 key. The 7/8 range. You hop on brick a key, waste 30 min, reload with a new group, 1/5 is lost and another brick. Queue again. 2 hours later you’ve made little progress failing even half your keys. I heal, so getting another group can be quick. I can’t imagine a dps. The journey from 7 to 10 isn’t fun in a pug environment. Can I push to 10s? Sure, but is it worth the time investment? More important, is it fun? The time investment on these lower keys suck. There is no “chill” key to farm gilded crests. This is fine with a coordinated group, but pugging is awful. The experience pugging vs in a coordinated group is way different than previous seasons. Pugging will always be harder sure, but its turned the game into a job instead of a hobby to push keys up.
Regarding not knowing mechanics in mid keys- I think part of this that was missed goes back to the reward/effort balance. Being 610-615 is comfortably over geared for most things shy of a 7, but you can get that from relatively trivial content. When you are doing a fairly annoying job like pug healing/tanking you don't want to put that much effort in for negligible reward. Blizz has made the "learning keys" obsolete, so everyone jumps the line or powers through the learning content until they hit a brick wall, troll a group, and waste 4 other people's time. It's just a broken system now for people trying to get into mythics. It's also one thing to watch a quazii deep dive on a dungeon, it's another to memorize everything you need to know when there are so many abilities to get used to. That takes experience, which bliz has made unrewarding to get, which creates a toxic pug environment. Noone expects to do content they are not rewarded for. Noone is expected to be learning in keys that give them rewards
Exactly. Between delves dropping such good loot and the keystone level squish, you can reasonably roll a +7 stonevault and it's literally your first time setting foot in that dungeon. There's no difficulty ladder to climb anymore where you would go from never having played the dungeons to knowing what each boss does.
Agree that this is part of the issue. I think champ and below gear is a complete waste of time and effort, and hero is only useful until 619. You have people jumping straight into 8-10 range for useful rewards without knowing the mechanics. A lot of people (myself included) learn by doing and failing. Each good thing I do in higher keys was probably learned by me messing up and letting/witnessing someone die in a previous key. When m0s came out I thought they would be harder and teach people the mechanics at least, but they were way to easy and maybe it is impossible for blizzard to make them challenging - people simply do not want to learn the mechanics and they might be outraged. I am not sure what the solution is because at a certain point i think you do need to learn if you want the rewards
"If you're not having fun just quit" - Tettles The issue is I am having fun but some of the difficulty and incentive changes they've made make the game mean it can feel like I'm choosing between making progress and having fun. In Dragonflight I would usually do heroic raid and get weekly keys done for the chance at a weekly myth track item and slowly get mostly myth track and portals over the course of the season. This season you are pushed to immediately do 10's for the vault which is too high for most players at this point. Changes I would make: 1. Make vault rewards for all content fully upgradeable like awakened gear in DF season 4 just set the initial ilvl based on the source content 2. Remove the penalty to crests if you deplete a key
The thing that i dont get is why portals are rewarded at the same key lvl as max vault for me thats a thing i would change. There is no need in "gate keeping" ilvl because most use this ilvl to get there portals
I was super hardcore last expansion especially S4, and I came into this season with the goal of title. Realized that this current season really isn't for me in terms of pushing, just not having as much fun as I was in DF. But after stepping back and saying "hey, it's okay if I don't want to do this this time around" and deciding to just play a little more casually, gear slow, run some low keys and literally what growl was saying just log in and do some dungeons and beat on some mobs/do some healing. I've been having a lot more fun that way. Like literally leaning back in my chair healing a chill +4 on my Rdruid and listening to music and vibing. And as a bonus the extra time has let me play the heck out of some other games and it's great
In reference to gearing. In my opinion the worst thing is crafting 636. I am a warrior main and started the season as fury. I crafted a 2h and wrists. Now I have been put in tank jail by my m+ group and I am looking at 2 weeks of no upgrades for a crafted shield and 1h. Even if I get a myth track shield from vault or ulgrax, I will potentially need to craft a shield for the proper secondaries. Otherwise, I am fine with the progression system. I think blizzard could make runed crests upgrade one more level to 623 instead of 619, which would make the gilded crest situation feel less bad early on in the season. It is odd to me that carved crests upgrade 597-606, runed crests upgrade 610-619, and then gilded upgrade 623-639 upgrade. Why is there such a jump in the amount of crests required? Upgrading a hero track 610 piece to 619 costs 60 runed crests while upgrading a myth 623 piece to 639 costs 90 gilded crests. So you are basically forced to make the decision of: do I upgrade the myth track upgrade I got from vault to 639 or craft a piece this week. It isn't as bad later into the season when you already have your hero track to 626, but having such little gear progression each week outside of potential raid drops makes the season feel slower and makes the idea of gearing an alt character sound like hell.
The issue is that after all the changes since dragonflight that crests system now just makes no sense to exist pretty much. As the point of it was to be able to get even your hero track gear to decently high ilvl so you don't feel behind if you don't raid. Now not only getting an item is equally annoying process by itself, but you have to spend even more time to upgrade it into way way shittier mythic track version on my alts im pretty much afking until i get my weekly 10 vault. I don't like the direction where blizzard is going again into these old ultra grindy system like legion artifact power where your progress have to be artifically slowed and time-gated for no reason just to be forced to play non-stop or burnout.
They also just "randomly" upped the gilded requirement for crafting to 90. While sure, 60 MIGHT have been too low, it still could've been 75. Doing literally 8 keys (all timed btw) without getting a single upgrade since you can't spend your Gilded feels awful. Also, I feel like Runed Crest jail lasts way longer this time around even if you have unlocked the 33% discount (which doesn't apply to Nascents for some insane reason). Like I don't want to spend 20 years spamming 4s when I can do 10s+ just to upgrade my gear. This could at least be solved partially by upping the conversion rate when you rank down your crests instead of it being 1:1.
I feel like his Jangbi background catapulted Growl into this "Man of the People" status. Nowadays he rubs heads with dorki, oils his guildleader's M+ score in hope for better gear and replaces the average NA pug talent with EU imports like Naowh and Kihu. WE, the people, demand a re-exploration and reflection of your roots, Growl! Justice for Jangbi!
BRD is far, far beyond the difficulty of Heroic Court. Heroic Court is a simple mechanics check, there is no healing check, there is no DPS check. You do the mechanics and you win. You can kill everything in Neru'bar at
Reasons why I chose to run into the storm: 1. It's the quickest and the most certain way to die. 2. To deny PVPers from plundering off my corpse. Yeah, the second point is kind of a protest I guess. I wish they would just let us jump off the southern bridge and die instantly instead of having to spend an extra 20 seconds to repeatedly jumping off 5+ times to die. I used to enjoy PVP (battlegrounds, not arena) when I first played in TBC but not anymore. Now I don't necessary hate them for adding cosmetic rewards to PVP contents (despite being a huge mount collector myself), I grind them out when I find the grind tolerable, and just leave them if not.
These people don't have the patience for it and they don't understand why casuals complain about it otherwise. Like Limit Max stopped playing m+ on his FDK because the gearing and grinding out crests is so terrible. If you ask him about it though he'll just say something like "oh he only does stuff that he thinks is fun".
Zero to hero I assume 2500 rating (KSH). I got to KSH within the first week of M+. It's not hard. Im not some super tryhard giga 0.1% title gamer. I just play the game.
The key level squish + the drip-feed of gear and crests makes "progging" your way up to a +10 feel both really hard and not even worth it. One of Tettles's better takes this episode is that the progression is too "stair-steppy". I agree that DF S1 was definitely harder, but it felt like an actual progression track when my friends and I managed to time a Ruby Life Pools +11 and earned moving to that +12 etc. We all got KSM that season, but that same group of friends is having a terrible time climbing to +10s this season, which I attribute to one main reason: we learn a dungeon at a +5, get used to the mechanics and understand how to play together on a particular boss that has been hard for us - then we try that dungeon on a +6 and suddenly mechanics are now one-shotting when they didn't before or even just more damage that we barely noticed previously. There is such a big difference in damage between key levels now and it's very noticeable as a healer. That's the experience with a dedicated 5-stack of friends who have been gaming together for years. Take that and apply it to pugging and I think it's fairly obvious that the lack of gradual progression between key levels feels bad.
The problem with BRD is the rewards vs expectations. The rewards are in the 606-616 level but the whole raid requires 616-625 ilvl. It’s harder than heroic palace and rewards comparably worse loot. Blizzard definitely missed
yep. and I think it's cuz ppl like max and dratnos and the top .1% of players see any additional sources of Myth track gear as "chores" they are "forced to do" and Blizz caved and focused more on the needs of the top .1% than the bottom 99.9% of us normies
BRD is an anniversary event. Why should it be that difficult? The biggest issue is the healthpools. The health is like double nerubar palace heroic bosses.
Idk, all this talk about man of the people stuff. I'm just mad that the audio quality was fucked this episode. Tettles is SIGNIFICANTLY louder than everyone else to the point where i have to turn down my volume when he is talking and turn it back up when growl and squwish are talking... Only to be earraped by tettles screaming.
I give you lads ALL the points back for being the First video that discusses M+ that said the Key squish was a complete failure. People here: we don't have 8h/day to progress a Key, we do Key X at lvl Y once a week, so that 40% increase in dificulty Will never be progressed. Doing a mechanic once a week we can expect a 5%-10% learning progress, so we would normally upgrade a Key or two per week before the squish and that's rewarding. Now, you can Go 2 weeks before you Go though the barrier (for me it's 12s), which is desmotivating AF.
Hearing tettles say I have too many mythic pieces leaves a bad taste in my mouth after getting one this whole season guess I should prob give up like growl said and play d4 fuck me
75-80% success rate has to be refering to every finished key. All the keys that are canceled mid way or rather after the first pull cant be counted in there. Also, why would you talk about the success rate of farm keys. 10s are visited by high lv people that carry keys and not only by pugs that try to push IO which is a fcking humongous difference. Tettles talks about out of context but is the one out of context or rather out of touch with the reality of the regular player.
There's also a huge difference between organized and pug group completion rates. I can do 10s fine with friends, but I can join an 8 pug and it's 50/50 whether we even finish the key.
from my alt experience in low keys its like 80 % failure ratio in like +5s . sure on main in +10s in 635 + groups its lol easy - but low keys are literaly hell on earth . when 3/4 of time half of dps are dangerously to my dps as tank .... yeah the experience is just horrible. pugs are just dead for m+ this season .
For the first 3 weeks +10 pug completion rate for me was about 30%, and these groups had people that had timed 10s already. most groups would fall apart in the first 10 minutes
I want to see success rate of a +9 compared to a +10. I would wager the 10 is unironically higher despite being obviously a higher key level, but also adding Tyran/Fort. Why? The only people doing 9s are those progging 9s. If you have 10s on farm you will simply do 10s. No 630 juicer is ever signing up to a 9. They WILL however sign up to a 10 for vault slots. You can literally see this yourself if you do your own key. You list a 10 and get flooded with orange IO numbers everywhere. Something bad happens in the key anyway (let's say it was just the hypothetical 20% scenario Tettles mentioned) and you now have a 9 key. Your key now takes forever to fill and you are usually stuck with far less "qualified" individuals to choose from.
"What level do you find clueless people" to me proves a very different point. The issue is that these dungeons are 2-3 key levels easier in a pre-made than in a pug. The issue I've seen is people run 7 +10-12 keys with their guild and have no issues and then repeatedly fail to complete a single +8 to get the final vault slot. The other detail is WHEN you try to pug keys. In my experience, the success rate of pugs is 2-3x higher on Tuesday/Wednesday than on Sunday/Monday (in NA). So many people show up on Monday trying to get a vault for their alt and are doing less damage than the tank.
BRD shouldve awarded 6/6 heroic gear so you could get free upgrades on your hero track gear without "wasting" guilded crests. It wouldve been a unique way of solving the problem with the gearing this season which is leave guilded crests for crafted and myth gear and to leave hero gear at 619.
yeah tettles is still mad out of touch, and this is from someone who is farming 10s regularly. half my guildies in a ce focused guild struggle to get their 10s done each week, this season is considerably harder than previous seasons. even among mythic raiders 75-80% in 10's is generous. if you have the IO for 13's you can pug into groups where its a cakewalk, but people with low IO cant do that
Well, before, your sandbagger raid teammates didn't have to actually do 20s each week. If you can't farm 10s, you're not a CE level player. 10s are easier to pug than getting CE.
Rogue outlaw bug is complete abuse, it was not blocking your gameplay, it was not something you cant avoid, you had to make very specific steps to do it
For me personally, +10's are very easy at this point. But gearwise there really is nothing else I can do, except wait for the vault each week. So now im just doing weeklies (chores) and playing other games. I think I would be playing much more and would be more invested if there was a keylevel that dropped end of dungeon myth gear. That way i would have a goal to work towards and would be able to gear my character without having to just wait for 14 weeks of vaults. (Yes, i realize mythic raid exists, but like many others in this game, my schedule is too irregular to commit to a guild)
I realize this would mean top end players can just grind these keys for full myth gear relatively early, but if you consider what ilvl these groups were when the first 12s were timed, I don't think giving them 1 623 piece per dungeon would change much. Especially given that upgrading further is capped by crests anyway.
@@kevinbiermans1229 maybe once a week if you complete a certain level you get a piece or something or a token to upgrade a heroic ilvl dungeon piece? I could see that working a little more
I will say I am having far less fun this season than last solely because Myth gear was moved out of my skill range. My group can do 8's, sometimes 9's but then have to bail on the 10 or weekly no leaver it just to get another cloak in the vault and it just feels bad. In Dragonflight I was doing 22's and 23's, I was full Myth by the end of the season and it felt great. Now my team feels like its on the verge of disbanding because of how demoralizing this season is. I know I should just get good or accept the fact that I don't deserve the gear but I had it in previous seasons and that was fun, now I don't and it's not, it's just that simple.
Myth gear can be used for more than just title. Just having it makes your character stronger, the things that were difficult are easier, the feeling of progression is a big driving force in this game and being hard stuck at 619 ilvl is a real mood killer. If I had Myth gear from 8’s like last season, or even 9’s, then I’d be progressing 10’ already, maybe even 11’s. I’d be getting upgrades or working towards them with every dungeon, I’d be carrying my guild to AOTC, etc. Everyone has their own goals and gear helps with that, like a lot. In my guild of ~25 or so active raiders we would normally have 2-3 groups doing M+ on any given night, grinding gear or crests while we were proging heroic. Now there is no one, aside from the group I’m in not one person has done a dungeon is weeks, there’s just no point. Everyone has hero gear, most are maxed 619, the progress beyond that without Myth is just too much. Again, I know the answer is get good or get out but I might be at my limit and I didn’t change, the system changed from under me. :(
@@DrunkenBobDole Im in a pretty similar boat. Its not just the gear, its like five different changes including the gear that turn something like NW, where it used to be our "free" dungeon, into something that hard walls us on heal checks. Extremely frustrating.
Tettles can't emulate what pugging is like for the general community because even when he's pugging 10s on an alt he is coming in with way more experience and knowledge than the general community.
There's probably a decent amount of people that feel (me included) that the difficulty from pushing higher level keys (+12 and up I guess) is not the actual gameplay, but the soft requirement of finding people to play with to push those keys. Not to say that it's easy to push high keys, just that the actual gameplay difficulty isn't as much of a barrier as "networking" is I really don't feel like putting in the effort to message/add people, ask them to play, group with them, have them be a rager, and then do that process again with someone else. It's like doing a job interview in a fucking video game. It's especially exacerbated in the current season since the progression of key levels is so steep with the +12 Guile affix - there isn't a ton of progression you can make via pugging before you hit the soft requirement of needing a consistent group. Maybe I'm just pessimistic and jaded though since I think most WoW players are just super negative, huge bitches Networking is an (unfortunate) reality of pushing those higher keys, like Growl has said, so at the end of the day I guess I'm not as invested in the game as I thought
Wow should introduce a deathscreen that tells you why you died. One that is open by default unlike the current one because i bet 90% of the playerbase never have seen that tab. It should also signal whether the damage was avoidable eg.: dispellable poison, dodgable ground effect, soakable ground effect, interruptable cast, mitigateable hit, things like that. I know it wouldn't really work on the stonevault example, but i'm sure blizz can figure out how to explain that as well. It is also time to revamp the dungeon journal. It is completely useless for casual/less knowledgeable player. The fact that you MUST look for third party guides in a pve game is just insane to me. I personally don't mind it since I've been playing for 15 years, i'm used to it, but i bet it is terrible for new players.
My AOTC guild did ansurek and silken at 613 average. Most of us get the achievement and stop - we do not care about rewards from mythic raid or +10s. We wanted to see BRD as a fun thing to prog but BRD was way, way out of line with health values compared to Nerub’Ar. We have since cleared it on normal and then just left it alone.
I love how they keep piling on how clueless they are about things. People do not instantly think the key level they do is where pugging is the hardest. That is an idiotic take. The higher you up in keys while pugging, the better the players tend to be. So the area to pug where it is the hardest is always the middle. The start (+2s) are made for people learning and are over forgiving. The end (10s for this context) is designed to need coordination and knowledge. The middle area (7s) are where you find the most people who are trying to climb (ilvl, score, etc.) and people who lack the skill to do the higher keys. With those two things combined you are going to hit more walls. A lot of these people don't care about the game as much. When you go up higher the players will use more external help, addons, videos, weak auras, etc. If you pug 12s and think 12s are the hardest keys to pug then you are just wrong. That person who pugs 12s should try to pug 7s, then they will see difference.
@@Bobington11 What scares me the most is it is these types of people that are the loudest and get the best platform. Granted the complainers are a giant mass of people but they are all lumped up as one. These guys are individual, same as the Echo players and the Liquid players etc. Blizzard has clearly followed their lead on what they want. M+ has suffered for it, raid has suffered for it. Making end game content for the 1% is impossibly silly. I couldn't imagine the mountain a new person would have to climb to understand the nuances of this game to raid high end or to push high keys.
It´s not getting much better Tettles, i think the problem right now is that gearing should be a casual activity. And then you go about and do the content you want, if you want really hard content there´s infinite key levels after 10 to eventually hit your wall. There´s absolutely no need to have anything like a wall before that. If you add too much friction too early no matter if it´s a tight timer or tight survival it´s just endless pain for the greater community. DF S2-4 were beloved not because high keys were easy, but because you got the actual gear needed to do them without it feeling like your 2nd job.
Killing a mythic boss gives gear therefore should be a casual activity. Gear is a reward for doing a hard task, if you don't put the effort to do a hard task then you don't deserve the reward of gear.
@@winter83384 i think the way the game is structured it absolutely sucks as a reward. Just remove Mythtrack. The most hated content in this game is always connected to Playerpower, while the most beloved Content has optional rewards. And that´s not a coincidence. Mage Tower was beloved because it was 100% optional and everyone got to do it on their time. Thorgast was actually great content, but it was hated because you had to do it to gain power. Let players enjoy the gameplay, donßt force them to grind to make the game playable.
@@winter83384This has always been such a wild, uneducated take on hearing. “I do hard content, therefore I deserve a reward “ “If you don’t do hard content, you don’t deserve a reward. “ At its core, this doesn’t even make sense. “Hard content” is subjective. We can use analytics to determine certain walls and the percentage of players completing higher key levels or different raid levels, but that doesn’t necessarily make that content inherently “hard”. I would also like to ask, why would it matter? If every player received loot at the end of a key or during raid, for every boss killed, why would that matter to you? Let’s just say that a +5 now drops max level hero gear and a +6 drops myth track. Why does that matter? With infinite scaling dungeons, there will eventually be a wall that players find too difficult/unable to survive. It doesn’t matter what your item level is, eventually the dungeon will kill you due to scaling. Who cares if a person gets myth track gear super early? That’s not even a problem. It matters to Blizzard only because it has the potential to reduce a players in game time because they’re “finished”. But honestly, a faster and more appropriate gearing system with less currency would make me play more and play different characters. I would spend more time in game because it’s “fun”.
@@matthewalexander2780 you can actually see the result of "every player gets a piece of loot once a week" in lower keys now, when delve people at like 620 item level que into keys and have 0 clue what's going on, but you, as a person making the group can not distinguish them from people who geared through m+. Don't get me wrong, I do not like myth track gear at all and I want every second of my time spent in mythic raid back, but unfortunately I have to do it. But still, you can not just hand free loot to everyone.
@@matthewalexander2780 yeah i don't know why blizz likes to make lame and complicated gearing systems. i'm a returning player and let me tell you, the gearing in retail is really stupid for someone that has been out of the loop for a while. and i haven't even started to look into the new (to me) crafting system. imo they need to go back to the badge system. you can get moderately good gear (not bis) if you're unlucky with drops/vault. i'm sure gearing is easy to understand once you get used to it, but aside from that, why are there like 4 different tracks for gear? they seem to want to give you these little micro upgrades from spending crests and such, but why not get rid of that complication and go back to a more "traditional" gearing system? i'm ranting at this point. honestly i'm probably just too old to understand all these newfangled systems and need to retire to some farming sim game
Growl drew the exact wrong conclusion from his poll that the data suggests. Go back and think about your discussion about gear matching the difficulty when it came to raids.. Does the gear rewarded at the plus 7 or 10 difficulty match the effort it takes to pug the content. For that number of people its telling me no. I absolutely hate the phrase "get good" its a complete over simplification of the core problems perpetuated by players that the system doesn't negatively affect. Maybe the rewards are not motivating people to improve at the rate that acquiring the gear incentives them. I have no issues with difficult content. I do have issues with my time being wasted by overly exhaustive game design.
For the record I am a massive Growl fan. He is a thoughtful person. This podcast misses in my opinion the viewpoint of a very specific group (and that's okay). Skilled players who have less free time that primarily geared to mythic level gear through keys solely pugging. The game is probably at the worst state it's ever been for that specific player base from a purely gearing my character is fun perspective. And a lot of ex-mythic raiders fall into that category.
y, they also just completely ignore that gear plays such a massive role in what is difficult. a 7 on ilvl 600 because you got some gear from delves for your limited playtime in the first week is waay different than people playing it on 610+ with tiersets from full raid clears. And that just snowballs massively in M+, and against M+ only players. I mean Growl is all about the time&effort thing there, but it´s killing the game for most people - as most people come home from an 8-10hours day, do 2hours of household chores and then want to relax a little. Ofc you can design the game only for people that want to play the game as their job, but i doubt you´ll be a massive RPG for long that way. Just let everyone progress in power equally, also would make the game much more skill driven than the grinding for ilvl.
There is lots of things talked about... but I can confirm that I am pugging 8 10s per week and 80% success rate is the minimum. That comes with the caveat that I am more than holding up my share of the dungeon, as a warlock I am kicking an average of 15 times per dungeon, doing an average of 1.7m overall damage, using my stops when nobody has a kick, have a very firm grip on the fundamentals of all dungeons and the meta strats, and very rarely dyeing unless it is a wipe.
The whole take of "Well, if you don't like this one aspect of the game, maybe you should just quit." is pretty bad and your take on SV first boss dispel is even worse.
The take I got from them in the SV is “if you don’t understand a mechanic use your time to learn it” how is that a bad take? It’s how you improve at the game lol
Here is how you make BRD balanced: every heroic bosskill drops an Algar Token of Merit, one token per boss per week, so you can get 8 by clearing all 8 bosses. It's not gamebreaking, but it's enough to incentive people to do it and make it worth their time without being mandatory. (those are the tokens which you use next to the vault, ie 6 = socket or half spark.)
BRD drops 612 IL meaning it should be tuned for like 605 or whatever players who actually benefit from going in there. That raid is just straight up not possible in that level of gear pre-nerfs since you won't make damage checks and will outright just die to missing a single kick on like Incendius.
@@aroix2667 the upgrade system that takes Runed Crests to go above 606? That upgrade system? Where are we getting Runed Crests again? Oh riiiiiiight.....
When it comes to the boss example would one boss like this be great yes. Would every single boss in the raid be good like this than no. What I miss is the ebb and flow of combat where there are peak stress times and than longer periods of chill time. I need time to relax before being stressed again, if everything is on a knifes edge of failing for 10-30 min (depending on boss or M+ run) than I just get drained and I don't look forward to the next challenge. I think this is my main complaint about TWW. In DF you could stress yourself to get a portal or to push than you could fall back and just vibe to get your 8 vaults done. In TWW I have been more stressed than I ever have been in the game and it shows in my lack of tolerance for less skilled or knowledgeable players and just the fact that instead of spamming M+ to have fun and relax for the night after work I find myself watching youtube while doing the dishes. Jesus that says a lot about the state of the game when I realize I would rather do dishes than another +10 key.
y, i also think that is a failure in dungeon design. You want some easy mass pulls to just blast in between the stressful parts. Being fully locked in through 30+mins of a dungeon is just ridiculously stressful. It´s fine to have some very technical pulls in between, but not every darn group has to have more than 1 mechanic.
just wanted to mention really quick as someone that plays other mmos: the thing that makes pass/fail mechanics in wow so much more miserable (which is why they're done a lot less) is because of how big raids are. If you make a mechanics where EVERYONE must do their part correctly, you're way more likely to have someone make a mistake in a group of 20 people than let's say in a group of 10, which leads to the obvious condition of "wiping because one guy fucked it up even though you did it correctly" (Silken Court)
i never understood why blizzard releases mid season patch with the same rewards path as release patch/start season patch, just mae the rewards from mid season patch be one step up compared to start of season. even open world player have nothing to gain from that. if you read most of the comments on growl poll you can see that the majority that people that voted 7 are people that do 10+, the problem with 7 is that you don't need to learn the dungeon until you get there, and the people that don't learn will never do because they are fine doing the key like that. tettles try to pug a key +7, wipe once and see if no one leaves, success rate doesnt count leavers.
There are walls, though. In arakara, when the bolts become more dangerous than the aoe is a little wall you hit. EDIT: the pugs not leaving after wipes was a behavior change I legit saw this week even though the change would've only saved 1 key. Ps: the average chance to get loot on group loot isn't the same because it's influenced by your comp; imagine all plate healers and tanks with all hunter dps: the hunters will get less loot.
So if I'm understanding this correctly, it's not that tettles is saying that you ought not to be able to time a key after a wipe, it's that he believes the challengers peril affix dictates that a wipe = brick, or at least that's the goal of the affix...?
Could you imagine if mythic raid only dropped heroic gear and the raiders only got 1 piece of mythic loot a week from the vault? That's exactly what is happening with m+ only players right now. They're doing harder content with only a chance at a mythic piece of gear weekly. That lack of gear exacerbates the difficulty. Personally I only have 2 pieces of myth track gear right now (and 2 crafted) and have had 2 weeks go by with no upgrades in my vault due to RNG. I run all these dungeons each week with 0 chance of upgrade from end of dungeon loot and then the let down if I don't have any good options in my vault is more devastating. Perhaps a chance at high rolling into a myth track piece at end of dungeon (like rare drop) would be nice and also incentivize people to complete the key instead of abandon. Also give more crests as reward for completion out of time.
New Affix Suggestion! Do a 180 for next season. Dependable Challenger ! * You now lose no time on Deaths. * You unlock a TELEPORT (similar to the mole machine in Uldaman) checkpoint after defeating any boss. * After dying you respawn at the instance entrance and can choose any unlocked checkpoint to return to.
I wish we could get Myth track gear from end of dung +10. Sucks that as a M+ only player who does the endgame dungeons im limited to 1 piece of Myth gear(if im lucky with vault) a week. While a middle paced guild gets 4+ chances at Myth track gear a week from raid.
Brd was too hard on launch even for decent guilds that already cleared nerubar a few bosses were heavily overturned. In our 10 group we had way higher hps on healers than we ever had on any nerubar boss. Bosses in brd at launch were doing way too much damage for heroic difficulty.
When pushing in week one and two (to try to get to +10's) with pugs I didn't have anywhere near an 80% success rate. It was around a 35% success rate. Even now my success rate when doing a weekly farm for +10's (if I can even call it that as I still struggle with these) is extremely variable. When it comes to CoT I have a 0% success rate (and honestly at this point I refuse to even run it anymore) while in mists I have a 85% success rate. But you said it yourself, this is a farm its supposed to be a weekly grind not a push so you should expect high success rates and we don't see that even. Its why players such as myself are getting burnt out is because every week is a progression run with less than a 50% average success rate. Edit: Ok nevermind we are saying the same thing.
This feels so sad when the best solution suggested is - "Just quit the game". I guess it's true, because I already did unfortunately even though I love wow, but I can't afford to try-hard it anymore. Why is wow trying so hard to be e-sport and always being compared to League? It just feels like complete 180 of how it used to be.
Looking at m+ participation it doesn’t seem like you’re the only one. It kinda doesn’t matter if a game is theoretically perfect on paper if there’s nobody playing.
RE: Growl's Tweet about M+ Lvl: I think he's extracting the wrong information from the data-- I am trying to time 12s, but it doesn't mean that if someone's clueless it doesn't hurt starting at the 7s. I just expect to see far less clueless people at the 12 level. And, it's also fair to argue what is considered clueless at a 7 vs. a 12. For example, not dispelling EDNA's debuff at the right time is a problem for 7s, but not going to be an issue at a 12. But not knowing the kick rotations/priority that shifts as keys get harder, and routes evolve around that is much more prevalent at a 12. Does not knowing that as a DPS make you clueless?
I'm frankly tired of all the FotM Prot Paladin rerollers in my keys at this point. They coast by the pisslow keys where nothing kills them because nothing does lethal damage and then they get to like +8s or +9s and get literally one shot by Subjugate on the first boss of CoT on Tyrannical since the class is made out of literal tissue paper without active mit and they see Yoda at rank 1 running full crit gear and no Sentinel.
I healed a 12 Mists key the other week where on the first boss the tree casted fear, and my fear animation walked me into a new puddle spawning killing me instantly. The key ended there. Aside from being a prophet I had no agency over my death.
Failed a 12COT today as the fury warrior "didn't know" about the tank soak on final boss and just sits in it. We would have timed. How does that happen LOL. He'd timed a 10 already, his key.
@@ethannumber1 That's even more reason to do it. Anybody who plays PvP knows that juking kicks is the worst mechanic ever introduced. Removing it would be amazing.
@@ethannumber1 Missing a kick in pvp gives 5s of interrupt immunity (with precog gem, but if you're caster you're running it) so I think this would actually be okay.
On the topic of plunderstorm and people dying and going again my strat as someone who is aggressively mid at plunderstorm was to complete the quest asap and then play super aggressively where either i die and have a new quest to get plunder quick or I would start snowballing in power from my aggressive play and id make it to the end and even sometimes win.
"People who are 2.5k IO cant articulate their thoughts" is tettles trying to suggest ppl who have low IO are dumb?!?!? what an elitist, we can only rely on Growl now
24:48 if anything it extends FURTHER into M+ than raid. There's a reason on average in a PUG a +5 is harder to heal than a +10. Because missing kicks or standing in bad stuff usually doesn't kill you outright people simply stop caring and will just "fail" mechanics out of complacency. Stonevault is especially bad about it this tier where you'll constantly max stack debuffs on E.D.N.A. and Skarmorax or you will just have people sit on the debuff for 10 years on the last boss because it doesn't outright kill you for doing so and IS able to be compensated for by a now very upset healer. I did a DB 10 for my vault this week where our healer had to do a whopping like 500k overall HPS due to having absolute gamers in the group. I WISH I could get away with that on some of my rat alts farming Runed Crests, but that just isn't the case since no one hits defensives on mechanics that won't outright kill them and you'll have things like a bomb blowing up on Rashanan or whatever. Also, side tangent, Prot Paladin being the new "meta" tank exacerbates this and further exposes the problem. That spec is made out of literal tissue paper without active mitigation which, again, does not matter in your +6 key or whatever, but when you miraculously rat your way into my 10 you now suddenly get literally one shot by not having something rolling on every single Subjugate on the first boss of CoT. It doesn't help that players see guides recommend going full crit no Sentinel do oonga boonga damage, despite that being way harder to play since you WILL actually explode 100-0 if you make a mistake due to not having mastery or spell block.
Same with prot. Every guide will tell you to go haste/crit while haste/vers will make you way tankier and more reliable for usual tank player or new player to the role. You don't need to stack every bit of dps on a tank to time 10s. Damage in some dungeon can be WILD, even for safer tank like prot, so be tanky is better in basically every scenario outside of pushing really high key where you need every bit of dps possible and more overall dps to not lose aggro.
We elected Growl as President of the Mole People, and for what? The moleconomy is in shambles due to Tettles' molenipulation. Corruption goes all the way to the top of molethic plus content creators.
This is high quality
Listening to Tettles takes on m+ pugging is like listening to Jeff Bezos talk about the importance of workers unions.
I feel like Tettles genuinely gets so close to seeing why his takes were bad but still misses the point lol
fr lol. he seems at first open to the idea that his takes sometimes are bad, but then right at the last second he lets the defensive part of him win out and he makes some "ehhh f you guys, I stick by what I said, moving on, next topic" and it's like DAMNIT we were so close to him admitting some kind of fault or error, but at the last second he reversed course :( lol
Growl being criticized: "Stay mad, kid"
Tettles being criticized: Growl absolutely pops off with some real shit about his Rio or username carrying him.
This was a fuckin banger episode guys. I loved the whiplash of completely out of touch and in touch takes back and forth.
That Growl response is so funny. Without a credible argument, when in doubt, attack and call them names.
just watching Squishei leaning back in his chair smiling ear to ear while Growl and Tettles duke it out is hilarious
Feels like Tettles is trying to make his case of that he is not out of touch with the pug scene, but he is just shooting his own foot and making it worse.
It's okay to accept that you're out of touch and don't understand other people's perspective. I wish Tettles would do a series trying to push rating on a new character without help from friends and his community.
On a spec that he has at "Needs God" equivalent on his tier list@@Bobington11
@@Bobington11 What's an acceptable rating for him to reach in pugs? I'd say anything past 10s, you're doing keys for the sake of pushing rating. So let's call the benchmark for Tettles all 12s. With a 622+ character, tettles is CERTAINLY capable of pugging all 12s. Sure, he will brick a key here or there on the journey, but he will also contribute far more to his group than the average pug would because he is a skilled player.
Tettles is talking about wanting the design to be DAMAGE CHECKS vs SURVIVABILITY CHECKS. High keyers constantly harp on this design issue, and it constantly gets worse.
I feel like I'm losing my mind. Either both of you are hard stuck in 10s and blaming it on others or you're so insufferable people don't want to group with you. Or I'm just feeding the trolls.
@@batguy5030 or you just don't understand. There are multiple different things that people have issues with. Personal skill accounts for 1 of 5 people. You can play perfectly, but you still need enough of your group members to also know what's going on. You can absolutely push your rating and keep progressing, but you will run into a much higher failure rate than he seems to grasp.
Growl hit it on the head when he said that Tettles' rating and ilvl put him into better groups with a better chance of success. You have to push through all the wasted time and effort to finally get some progress when you don't start a head.
@@Bobington11 "organized groups fail less than disorganized pugs" wow thats so crazy. Why is that a problem? Pugging 10s is easy, you want pugging 12s to be easy too?
Tettles feeling insecure about having no idea what the typical gameplay loop looks like for someone that doesn't dedicate their job to this game is awfully strange.
Oh thank god, a 2 hour episode to listen to as I pretend to work at my crappy job! THANK YOU!
Perfect 2 hours! Just enough to be half of the server downtime today (probably)
Bro saaaaaaame
Tettles quotes weren't "taken out of context". He didn't provide the context. People aren't mind readers. His explanation after the act makes sense but that's not what he said last week.
@@baseboned His hidden context that only existed in his head also didn't help his case much
The fact he got mad about it instead of acknowledging that it was a mistake on his part makes it even funnier.
Squishei: "the one thing that I think I've seen a lot, a lot of comments a lot of people saying this affix prevents me from t- like the second you full wipe this affix it prevents you from timing the key and that could not be further from the truth."
Tettles: "I also have a hot take that you probably shouldn't be timing key if you're full wiping (*Squishei seems to agree*), like... can you time a key if you full wipe? Yes. I think if you have a full wipe though, even if it's to trash though, like that's a situation where I feel like the the amount of situations of which you are able to recover and still time that key should not be plentiful. Like it shouldn't be the norm to have a full wipe and time a key. Like if you have five deaths over the course of the entire dungeon that's different than full wiping to a pack or to a boss or something."
That's literally the full context. Like really, people can't just say "that was taken out of context" when they can just go back and *look at the context*
The context part was only available to Patreon subscribers.
Growl: "I'm not disconnected"
*proceeds to rant proving how disconnected he is*
Never change lol
Yeah, that was hilarious
Problem with pug scene is that there is no 'progressing' a key. First sign of trouble everyone leaves and the group doesn't learn anything. How to fix that problem? No freaking clue at all. Easy to say just find a static group. Personally I'd have to find multiple since i work a rotating shift.
The problem is that you're only personally progressing, but only if you did something that contributed to the failure. If your pug tank dies two times on the first pull and leaves, you learned nothing. It doesn't become impossible, it becomes time consuming.
You learned to the point you wiped. You learned what caused the wipe. Go ahead and trie again. Thats the problem ppl dont want to keep going either because lfg takes too long or because they are just bad and think its unjust for them not having everythig set on a plate for them.
@@hugofreitas6799 but me learning it doesn't change anything because MY knowledge isn't the only factor. I learned literally day 1 you shouldn't stack the Skarmorax debuff or you will just die to the vuln stacks. Me knowing that means LITERALLY NOTHING when the Enh Shaman goes to their own add away from everyone else and explode it with a Tempest or whatever and 2 stacks us and we just explode in a 10. Yeah, my knowledge of progression totally mattered and "learning" it AGAIN here SURELY means it won't ever happen again in another group right????
This would be so easy to fix, but Blizzard does not want to. Simply add a public counter on how many dungeons the character has been in and how many they have timed and how many they have finished.
This info would be next to their M+ score. So when they apply to your key you would see something like 50 starts, 45 finishes, 30 timed runs and when you get someone who has significantly more starts than finishes you know not to invite them.
Another simple option would be to add everyones proving grounds rank, sure it isn't nearly as good, but it would be a good indicator if they can even kick casts since back in the day when a silver rank was needed to queue heroic dungeons a lot of people complained that it was impossible. It should be so that you couldn't queue for M+ keys without gold or just show their rank so everyone can judge for themselves.
@@hugofreitas6799 clueless player causes a wipe, I know why he caused a wipe, go next, other clueless player causes a wipe on the same spot, progress!
The issue with keys is that the design philosophy for dungeons has changed since the key system was last updated/changed. Keys now require progression more in line with raid progression and the key system does not support this type of progression, it actually makes it exponentially more time consuming and difficult, therefore frustrating for the community. Imagine if when you wiped on a mythic raid boss you had to go kill it on heroic before you could try again.
There's also just dead key levels that feel AWFUL to get stuck in. The obvious examples are 6 and 9. Your +10 Mists will probably fill in 30 seconds full of overqualified juicers. If something goes awry (idk tank doesn't mit Anima Slash and chain dies) and causes a disband your key now turns into a +9 Mists. I mean it shouldn't be that bad to just run it back right let's just relist it.....and no one is signing up besides people probably 10 IL lower and also unable to do 10s, but since no one wants to actually do 9s you are kind of just stuck with it and are lead down the garbage deplete spree.
Funnily enough it would probably unironically be easier to drop it AGAIN to an 8 where you again get the juicers signing up for the easiest Gilded Crest level and aiming for a 2 chest.
@@amethonys2798 Its not that much dead keys levels, but there are specifically dead keys. Like if you get 9 mist who cares there will be always people joining as that is the easiest key. But imagine you push your key and get 10 city of threads and you are like nice i'm done for the week.
But yeh overall i agree blizzard is trying to push like that toxic mindset that everything should have 100 different mechanics as the game is old and classes got way too many abilities since last time we had any major pruning like legion and you need to satisfy players that have been doing the same for 10 years or more on top of weakauras going out of control don't think the current format really support that. I wish m+ was a bit more like the past most of the stuff was a bit more trivial and you just had to improve primarily your damage to progress or pull bigger and being able to chain cc a trash pack in more uncoordinated manner with mostly mass crown controls with some other healing check to satisfy healers and way less fucking defensives to deal with that just felt more fun.
@t.g7545 specifically with CoT the only issue I really have with the dungeon is like 70% of the difficulty is Izo where you don't find out the key is bricked until almost 30 minutes in because you can't meet the heal check. Funnily enough this is the exact reason Blizzard cited for nerfing Melandris in CoS back in DF S1 and straight up repeated the problem. I suppose the one big difference is you were at least alloted one or more full wipes to Melandris due to a more lenient timer and spawning practically at the boss. If you wipe to Izo you are simply not timing the key because the run back is literally 2 minutes and the fight takes like 3+ on what feels like one of the tighter timers of the season.
@@amethonys2798 There are multiple ways to brick the key not just izo. You can brick it by bad tank routes like going to the right into the most caster heavy packs considering every bolt does like 60%+ of your health. You can brick it by someone important getting stunned by the orb on first boss.
Even second boss is maybe harder than anything in mist pretty much like tank can die from the rime or people not using defensives during overlaps and it have bigger runback than izo maybe longest run back in the game. Coag have nasty healing + defensives check too. I had more smooth izo kills often than first 3 bosses.
Imagine not getting loot when not timing a key as you don't get loot for wiping on a boss, being able to drop loot which no one can use because of group loot as M+ is still personal loot, or having to do 11-13-15 keys to unlock mythic track same as raids as raids bosses difficulty for your great vault scales higher the more slots you want. It is still funny for me that M+ players think they got it bad compared to raids and we haven't even touched the time you need to spend to keep a guild together. It is funny you're trying to say that M+ is more time consuming when people are wiping 100-400 times on raid bosses and are extending weeks after weeks with no loot often. And even more funny, consider that most mythic raid players still do M+ so it's not like they aren't doing that content too.
Tett;es keeps complaining about people taking things out of context when he never provided the context in the first place lol
“Tell me you’re a tank player without telling me you’re a tank player”
Squishei: “Stats you can feel, like haste and versatility”
For those of you who want to hear the quote from Tettles, it is at 9:26min into the video "THE WORST PATCH IN WOW'S HISTORY?? The Bench Ep. 14. Quote: "I also have a hot take that you probably shouldn't be timing a key if your full wiping". I'm sorry Growl, tettles sounded like he meant that statement as is.
I think he meant in his view of how wow should be. Meaning of it we're up to him, it would be less mechanically intensive, but more punishing time wise. He spoke about that last episode too
I think the winner for man of the people is Dratnos
Real
this is the only correct choice
True
Big true
As someone who got all their portals done in the first few weeks i can tell you for a fact that after going back and doing lower keys on alts, theyre all miserable. If you didn't get a jump on them right away those lower keys feel like an actual nightmare. Its like being stuck in elo hell in other games. You're playing with people who barely know how to play their class. Nothing gets interrupted and no one uses their defensives. I gave up on most of my alts since i dont really have anyone to play with as is.
Bro you've explained this perfectly. I pushed 3130io a few weeks ago and i've been trying to gear a new alt, exclusively pugging so i've had to start in low keys with it. and my god not 1 brain cell was to be found, absolutely miserable experience
As a healer I completely agree, any key below 7 or 8 that you join is a monumental clownfiesta most of the time. Unironically harder to heal than a 10+.
Tettles def has grown out of touch but tbh his content is for the .1%
all 3 are out of touch
Idk I think they are in touch with people who play the game
@@_Traveyout of touch with what? Casual dad gamers? lol
They’re very much in touch with anyone who plays the game seriously. That’s the whole point. If you’re more casual, it’s fun to listen to people discuss the game in a way you don’t play it as well. Win win
I’m not a rwf or title key player. I’m 2.8k io and aotc at 631 ilvl pres evoker. I’m much more serious than the average player, but definitely not a true sweat.
@@nickv3085 at that level you're a sweat by multiple definitions
@@nickv3085 You're literally in the top 1-5% of the m+ population lmao
You're the definition of a sweat mate
Omg he still doesn't get it
One of the big disappointments as a healer with things like the Cyrce's Circlet is you never get to choose the actual "healing/shield" component. It's always too weak, so you wind up taking damage or a secondary stat.
The shield is currently 250K, so unless it procs at least every 20s, it won't be used. The water heal is about 280K split between 2 players. The sea shanty to 5 allies only heals for 25K/second over 5 seconds. Those don't feel very strong to me, and definitely not strong enough to provide some leeway into the next season as the dev interview said. Hopefully they get tuned up.
The way Squishei responds to Tettles is like when the teacher hears a really stupid question but has to say “there are no stupid questions”
Tettles be like "yall just didnt understand me" alright bro
"it was taken out of context" brother didn't construct the correct context he's alluding to, so things weren't taken out of context imo.
It feels like Growl took the criticism seriously and Tettles spent all his time trying to prove why all commenters were idiots
BrD HC should drop gilded crests. For alts and casual players that had a hard time to get gilded crests they now need to farm like 700 of them.
isn't it still way harder than just pumping +8s?
@@_reenzane raid bosses drop 15 crests, so it would be a much faster way to get gilded crests than spamming 8s, especially if you account for having to sit in LFG between runs if you're pugging keys.
I feel like theres a big perspective difference when you play 20-50 keys a week vs 1-4. When you do 1-4 keys a week, a single failure is a big deal. It only takes one goober to make you think that some lower level difficulty is too hard for pugs.
Bruh... I have like 4 crafted pieces now because the only way for me to get myth track is through the vault and I've gotten nothing out of 3 of them.
Just wanted to point out in the whole key success rate section Tettles never said historically or anywhere near that sense in the last podcast on ep 14 he starts talkin about it at 14 mins.. This is his quote:
" for high end players you typically have a 50% success rate on keys right, you time a 14, you go to a 15, you go back to a 14 and go back and forth until you end up reaching a spot where you're done progging that level of keys and you get into the next level thats what the high key experience is. For most players they don't interact with that at all, there is no progging keys right. Their progression typically happens via gear and they will have probably a 75-80% key success rate on the entire season in some instances depending on the player."
Moonkin mains + gaslighting, name a more iconic duo
I don't think he's wrong about that for people who hit a certain level and just stay there. I hit whatever is highest key rewards wise every season (KSM or KSH) and then just stick to that level since I don't care about pushing higher keys.
Their perspective is skewed because they play the game a lot. It’s their job. I’ve been guilty of this in seasons I get real sweaty with my play time.
If I have 2 hours to play a day and I’m “progging” a lower level key and it bricks it hurts momentum. I’m not even talking about a 10 key. The 7/8 range. You hop on brick a key, waste 30 min, reload with a new group, 1/5 is lost and another brick. Queue again. 2 hours later you’ve made little progress failing even half your keys. I heal, so getting another group can be quick. I can’t imagine a dps.
The journey from 7 to 10 isn’t fun in a pug environment. Can I push to 10s? Sure, but is it worth the time investment? More important, is it fun? The time investment on these lower keys suck. There is no “chill” key to farm gilded crests. This is fine with a coordinated group, but pugging is awful.
The experience pugging vs in a coordinated group is way different than previous seasons. Pugging will always be harder sure, but its turned the game into a job instead of a hobby to push keys up.
Exactly, if you can;t walk away you are simply too invested to actually have logical takes on the subject. You are 100% correct
You forgot the biggest wall of all, getting invited to do the key
Regarding not knowing mechanics in mid keys- I think part of this that was missed goes back to the reward/effort balance. Being 610-615 is comfortably over geared for most things shy of a 7, but you can get that from relatively trivial content. When you are doing a fairly annoying job like pug healing/tanking you don't want to put that much effort in for negligible reward. Blizz has made the "learning keys" obsolete, so everyone jumps the line or powers through the learning content until they hit a brick wall, troll a group, and waste 4 other people's time. It's just a broken system now for people trying to get into mythics. It's also one thing to watch a quazii deep dive on a dungeon, it's another to memorize everything you need to know when there are so many abilities to get used to. That takes experience, which bliz has made unrewarding to get, which creates a toxic pug environment. Noone expects to do content they are not rewarded for. Noone is expected to be learning in keys that give them rewards
Exactly. Between delves dropping such good loot and the keystone level squish, you can reasonably roll a +7 stonevault and it's literally your first time setting foot in that dungeon. There's no difficulty ladder to climb anymore where you would go from never having played the dungeons to knowing what each boss does.
Csnt believe I'm saying this but 95% of these issues would be solved by making m+ specific gear like how theres pvp gear lol
Agree that this is part of the issue. I think champ and below gear is a complete waste of time and effort, and hero is only useful until 619. You have people jumping straight into 8-10 range for useful rewards without knowing the mechanics. A lot of people (myself included) learn by doing and failing. Each good thing I do in higher keys was probably learned by me messing up and letting/witnessing someone die in a previous key.
When m0s came out I thought they would be harder and teach people the mechanics at least, but they were way to easy and maybe it is impossible for blizzard to make them challenging - people simply do not want to learn the mechanics and they might be outraged. I am not sure what the solution is because at a certain point i think you do need to learn if you want the rewards
"If you're not having fun just quit" - Tettles
The issue is I am having fun but some of the difficulty and incentive changes they've made make the game mean it can feel like I'm choosing between making progress and having fun. In Dragonflight I would usually do heroic raid and get weekly keys done for the chance at a weekly myth track item and slowly get mostly myth track and portals over the course of the season. This season you are pushed to immediately do 10's for the vault which is too high for most players at this point.
Changes I would make:
1. Make vault rewards for all content fully upgradeable like awakened gear in DF season 4 just set the initial ilvl based on the source content
2. Remove the penalty to crests if you deplete a key
The thing that i dont get is why portals are rewarded at the same key lvl as max vault for me thats a thing i would change. There is no need in "gate keeping" ilvl because most use this ilvl to get there portals
"They didn't fix it in under 24 hours and therefore you should feel free to exploit an obvious exploit" is a hell of a take.
Yup. An exploit is an exploit whether Blizz leave it in or not. When you're deliberate about it, it's just worse(like with the rogues).
I was super hardcore last expansion especially S4, and I came into this season with the goal of title. Realized that this current season really isn't for me in terms of pushing, just not having as much fun as I was in DF. But after stepping back and saying "hey, it's okay if I don't want to do this this time around" and deciding to just play a little more casually, gear slow, run some low keys and literally what growl was saying just log in and do some dungeons and beat on some mobs/do some healing. I've been having a lot more fun that way. Like literally leaning back in my chair healing a chill +4 on my Rdruid and listening to music and vibing. And as a bonus the extra time has let me play the heck out of some other games and it's great
In reference to gearing. In my opinion the worst thing is crafting 636. I am a warrior main and started the season as fury. I crafted a 2h and wrists. Now I have been put in tank jail by my m+ group and I am looking at 2 weeks of no upgrades for a crafted shield and 1h. Even if I get a myth track shield from vault or ulgrax, I will potentially need to craft a shield for the proper secondaries.
Otherwise, I am fine with the progression system. I think blizzard could make runed crests upgrade one more level to 623 instead of 619, which would make the gilded crest situation feel less bad early on in the season. It is odd to me that carved crests upgrade 597-606, runed crests upgrade 610-619, and then gilded upgrade 623-639 upgrade. Why is there such a jump in the amount of crests required? Upgrading a hero track 610 piece to 619 costs 60 runed crests while upgrading a myth 623 piece to 639 costs 90 gilded crests.
So you are basically forced to make the decision of: do I upgrade the myth track upgrade I got from vault to 639 or craft a piece this week. It isn't as bad later into the season when you already have your hero track to 626, but having such little gear progression each week outside of potential raid drops makes the season feel slower and makes the idea of gearing an alt character sound like hell.
The issue is that after all the changes since dragonflight that crests system now just makes no sense to exist pretty much. As the point of it was to be able to get even your hero track gear to decently high ilvl so you don't feel behind if you don't raid. Now not only getting an item is equally annoying process by itself, but you have to spend even more time to upgrade it into way way shittier mythic track version on my alts im pretty much afking until i get my weekly 10 vault.
I don't like the direction where blizzard is going again into these old ultra grindy system like legion artifact power where your progress have to be artifically slowed and time-gated for no reason just to be forced to play non-stop or burnout.
They also just "randomly" upped the gilded requirement for crafting to 90. While sure, 60 MIGHT have been too low, it still could've been 75. Doing literally 8 keys (all timed btw) without getting a single upgrade since you can't spend your Gilded feels awful.
Also, I feel like Runed Crest jail lasts way longer this time around even if you have unlocked the 33% discount (which doesn't apply to Nascents for some insane reason). Like I don't want to spend 20 years spamming 4s when I can do 10s+ just to upgrade my gear. This could at least be solved partially by upping the conversion rate when you rank down your crests instead of it being 1:1.
wait what discount?@@amethonys2798
They spend an hour talking about community response to their tanks and then they hit "We were worried someone 2500 io wouldnt be able to talk"
I feel like his Jangbi background catapulted Growl into this "Man of the People" status. Nowadays he rubs heads with dorki, oils his guildleader's M+ score in hope for better gear and replaces the average NA pug talent with EU imports like Naowh and Kihu.
WE, the people, demand a re-exploration and reflection of your roots, Growl!
Justice for Jangbi!
BRD is far, far beyond the difficulty of Heroic Court. Heroic Court is a simple mechanics check, there is no healing check, there is no DPS check. You do the mechanics and you win. You can kill everything in Neru'bar at
Reasons why I chose to run into the storm:
1. It's the quickest and the most certain way to die.
2. To deny PVPers from plundering off my corpse.
Yeah, the second point is kind of a protest I guess.
I wish they would just let us jump off the southern bridge and die instantly instead of having to spend an extra 20 seconds to repeatedly jumping off 5+ times to die.
I used to enjoy PVP (battlegrounds, not arena) when I first played in TBC but not anymore. Now I don't necessary hate them for adding cosmetic rewards to PVP contents (despite being a huge mount collector myself), I grind them out when I find the grind tolerable, and just leave them if not.
I’d love to see Tettles do a Zero to Hero fully pugged on a new character. No help from his friends. No link to his main on io.
He doesn't have the patience and I can argue skill. He's out of touch.
I think he could do it. It just becomes very time consuming to do. You have to push past all the groups that are going to fail.
Bunch of randoms like me that dont play for a living do this all the time. You are out of touch. This thing is not hard once you learn the game.
These people don't have the patience for it and they don't understand why casuals complain about it otherwise. Like Limit Max stopped playing m+ on his FDK because the gearing and grinding out crests is so terrible. If you ask him about it though he'll just say something like "oh he only does stuff that he thinks is fun".
Zero to hero I assume 2500 rating (KSH). I got to KSH within the first week of M+. It's not hard. Im not some super tryhard giga 0.1% title gamer. I just play the game.
The key level squish + the drip-feed of gear and crests makes "progging" your way up to a +10 feel both really hard and not even worth it. One of Tettles's better takes this episode is that the progression is too "stair-steppy". I agree that DF S1 was definitely harder, but it felt like an actual progression track when my friends and I managed to time a Ruby Life Pools +11 and earned moving to that +12 etc. We all got KSM that season, but that same group of friends is having a terrible time climbing to +10s this season, which I attribute to one main reason: we learn a dungeon at a +5, get used to the mechanics and understand how to play together on a particular boss that has been hard for us - then we try that dungeon on a +6 and suddenly mechanics are now one-shotting when they didn't before or even just more damage that we barely noticed previously.
There is such a big difference in damage between key levels now and it's very noticeable as a healer. That's the experience with a dedicated 5-stack of friends who have been gaming together for years. Take that and apply it to pugging and I think it's fairly obvious that the lack of gradual progression between key levels feels bad.
The problem with BRD is the rewards vs expectations. The rewards are in the 606-616 level but the whole raid requires 616-625 ilvl. It’s harder than heroic palace and rewards comparably worse loot. Blizzard definitely missed
yep. and I think it's cuz ppl like max and dratnos and the top .1% of players see any additional sources of Myth track gear as "chores" they are "forced to do" and Blizz caved and focused more on the needs of the top .1% than the bottom 99.9% of us normies
@@d4mephistomax and dratnos agreed it should have had a quest that gives mythic loot tho?
BRD is an anniversary event. Why should it be that difficult? The biggest issue is the healthpools. The health is like double nerubar palace heroic bosses.
Idk, all this talk about man of the people stuff. I'm just mad that the audio quality was fucked this episode. Tettles is SIGNIFICANTLY louder than everyone else to the point where i have to turn down my volume when he is talking and turn it back up when growl and squwish are talking... Only to be earraped by tettles screaming.
The Jury of pugs is ready for Tettles to walk back his takes.
I give you lads ALL the points back for being the First video that discusses M+ that said the Key squish was a complete failure.
People here: we don't have 8h/day to progress a Key, we do Key X at lvl Y once a week, so that 40% increase in dificulty Will never be progressed. Doing a mechanic once a week we can expect a 5%-10% learning progress, so we would normally upgrade a Key or two per week before the squish and that's rewarding. Now, you can Go 2 weeks before you Go though the barrier (for me it's 12s), which is desmotivating AF.
The concept of this podcast being answering to all the angry comments on last episode is pretty genius.
Hearing tettles say I have too many mythic pieces leaves a bad taste in my mouth after getting one this whole season guess I should prob give up like growl said and play d4 fuck me
75-80% success rate has to be refering to every finished key. All the keys that are canceled mid way or rather after the first pull cant be counted in there. Also, why would you talk about the success rate of farm keys. 10s are visited by high lv people that carry keys and not only by pugs that try to push IO which is a fcking humongous difference. Tettles talks about out of context but is the one out of context or rather out of touch with the reality of the regular player.
There's also a huge difference between organized and pug group completion rates. I can do 10s fine with friends, but I can join an 8 pug and it's 50/50 whether we even finish the key.
The success rate is completed keys only. He doesn't understand where the numbers come from
from my alt experience in low keys its like 80 % failure ratio in like +5s . sure on main in +10s in 635 + groups its lol easy - but low keys are literaly hell on earth .
when 3/4 of time half of dps are dangerously to my dps as tank .... yeah the experience is just horrible. pugs are just dead for m+ this season .
For the first 3 weeks +10 pug completion rate for me was about 30%, and these groups had people that had timed 10s already. most groups would fall apart in the first 10 minutes
I want to see success rate of a +9 compared to a +10. I would wager the 10 is unironically higher despite being obviously a higher key level, but also adding Tyran/Fort.
Why? The only people doing 9s are those progging 9s. If you have 10s on farm you will simply do 10s. No 630 juicer is ever signing up to a 9. They WILL however sign up to a 10 for vault slots.
You can literally see this yourself if you do your own key. You list a 10 and get flooded with orange IO numbers everywhere. Something bad happens in the key anyway (let's say it was just the hypothetical 20% scenario Tettles mentioned) and you now have a 9 key. Your key now takes forever to fill and you are usually stuck with far less "qualified" individuals to choose from.
we need a Weak Aura Tracker for each time Growl says "I don't know"
"What level do you find clueless people" to me proves a very different point. The issue is that these dungeons are 2-3 key levels easier in a pre-made than in a pug. The issue I've seen is people run 7 +10-12 keys with their guild and have no issues and then repeatedly fail to complete a single +8 to get the final vault slot.
The other detail is WHEN you try to pug keys. In my experience, the success rate of pugs is 2-3x higher on Tuesday/Wednesday than on Sunday/Monday (in NA). So many people show up on Monday trying to get a vault for their alt and are doing less damage than the tank.
BRD shouldve awarded 6/6 heroic gear so you could get free upgrades on your hero track gear without "wasting" guilded crests. It wouldve been a unique way of solving the problem with the gearing this season which is leave guilded crests for crafted and myth gear and to leave hero gear at 619.
Imagine taking time to address all the bad takes you had last week, and then just doubling down on most of them. Why even bring it up at all?
yeah tettles is still mad out of touch, and this is from someone who is farming 10s regularly. half my guildies in a ce focused guild struggle to get their 10s done each week, this season is considerably harder than previous seasons. even among mythic raiders 75-80% in 10's is generous. if you have the IO for 13's you can pug into groups where its a cakewalk, but people with low IO cant do that
i think the fact that this saison is harder and df saison 4 was one of the easiest so far add to that a lot
Well, before, your sandbagger raid teammates didn't have to actually do 20s each week. If you can't farm 10s, you're not a CE level player. 10s are easier to pug than getting CE.
Rogue outlaw bug is complete abuse, it was not blocking your gameplay, it was not something you cant avoid, you had to make very specific steps to do it
For me personally, +10's are very easy at this point. But gearwise there really is nothing else I can do, except wait for the vault each week. So now im just doing weeklies (chores) and playing other games. I think I would be playing much more and would be more invested if there was a keylevel that dropped end of dungeon myth gear. That way i would have a goal to work towards and would be able to gear my character without having to just wait for 14 weeks of vaults. (Yes, i realize mythic raid exists, but like many others in this game, my schedule is too irregular to commit to a guild)
I realize this would mean top end players can just grind these keys for full myth gear relatively early, but if you consider what ilvl these groups were when the first 12s were timed, I don't think giving them 1 623 piece per dungeon would change much. Especially given that upgrading further is capped by crests anyway.
@@kevinbiermans1229 maybe once a week if you complete a certain level you get a piece or something or a token to upgrade a heroic ilvl dungeon piece? I could see that working a little more
I will say I am having far less fun this season than last solely because Myth gear was moved out of my skill range. My group can do 8's, sometimes 9's but then have to bail on the 10 or weekly no leaver it just to get another cloak in the vault and it just feels bad. In Dragonflight I was doing 22's and 23's, I was full Myth by the end of the season and it felt great. Now my team feels like its on the verge of disbanding because of how demoralizing this season is. I know I should just get good or accept the fact that I don't deserve the gear but I had it in previous seasons and that was fun, now I don't and it's not, it's just that simple.
Are you trying to achieve title? If not, you really don't need myth track gear.
Myth gear can be used for more than just title. Just having it makes your character stronger, the things that were difficult are easier, the feeling of progression is a big driving force in this game and being hard stuck at 619 ilvl is a real mood killer. If I had Myth gear from 8’s like last season, or even 9’s, then I’d be progressing 10’ already, maybe even 11’s. I’d be getting upgrades or working towards them with every dungeon, I’d be carrying my guild to AOTC, etc. Everyone has their own goals and gear helps with that, like a lot.
In my guild of ~25 or so active raiders we would normally have 2-3 groups doing M+ on any given night, grinding gear or crests while we were proging heroic. Now there is no one, aside from the group I’m in not one person has done a dungeon is weeks, there’s just no point. Everyone has hero gear, most are maxed 619, the progress beyond that without Myth is just too much.
Again, I know the answer is get good or get out but I might be at my limit and I didn’t change, the system changed from under me. :(
@@DrunkenBobDole Im in a pretty similar boat. Its not just the gear, its like five different changes including the gear that turn something like NW, where it used to be our "free" dungeon, into something that hard walls us on heal checks. Extremely frustrating.
Tettles can't emulate what pugging is like for the general community because even when he's pugging 10s on an alt he is coming in with way more experience and knowledge than the general community.
Perennial 2500 rating player here, i am willing to put my life on the line to go on the podcast and compete for Man of the People.
There's probably a decent amount of people that feel (me included) that the difficulty from pushing higher level keys (+12 and up I guess) is not the actual gameplay, but the soft requirement of finding people to play with to push those keys. Not to say that it's easy to push high keys, just that the actual gameplay difficulty isn't as much of a barrier as "networking" is
I really don't feel like putting in the effort to message/add people, ask them to play, group with them, have them be a rager, and then do that process again with someone else. It's like doing a job interview in a fucking video game. It's especially exacerbated in the current season since the progression of key levels is so steep with the +12 Guile affix - there isn't a ton of progression you can make via pugging before you hit the soft requirement of needing a consistent group. Maybe I'm just pessimistic and jaded though since I think most WoW players are just super negative, huge bitches
Networking is an (unfortunate) reality of pushing those higher keys, like Growl has said, so at the end of the day I guess I'm not as invested in the game as I thought
I don't honestly care if anyone is a "man of the people", I just love the weekly podcast this shit is great content.
Growl and his elitist attitude. Hes not of the plebs ever
Growls win by default. We all know tettles takes are never for the people.
Wow should introduce a deathscreen that tells you why you died. One that is open by default unlike the current one because i bet 90% of the playerbase never have seen that tab. It should also signal whether the damage was avoidable eg.: dispellable poison, dodgable ground effect, soakable ground effect, interruptable cast, mitigateable hit, things like that. I know it wouldn't really work on the stonevault example, but i'm sure blizz can figure out how to explain that as well. It is also time to revamp the dungeon journal. It is completely useless for casual/less knowledgeable player. The fact that you MUST look for third party guides in a pve game is just insane to me. I personally don't mind it since I've been playing for 15 years, i'm used to it, but i bet it is terrible for new players.
My AOTC guild did ansurek and silken at 613 average. Most of us get the achievement and stop - we do not care about rewards from mythic raid or +10s.
We wanted to see BRD as a fun thing to prog but BRD was way, way out of line with health values compared to Nerub’Ar. We have since cleared it on normal and then just left it alone.
I love how they keep piling on how clueless they are about things. People do not instantly think the key level they do is where pugging is the hardest. That is an idiotic take. The higher you up in keys while pugging, the better the players tend to be. So the area to pug where it is the hardest is always the middle. The start (+2s) are made for people learning and are over forgiving. The end (10s for this context) is designed to need coordination and knowledge. The middle area (7s) are where you find the most people who are trying to climb (ilvl, score, etc.) and people who lack the skill to do the higher keys. With those two things combined you are going to hit more walls. A lot of these people don't care about the game as much. When you go up higher the players will use more external help, addons, videos, weak auras, etc. If you pug 12s and think 12s are the hardest keys to pug then you are just wrong. That person who pugs 12s should try to pug 7s, then they will see difference.
There are also different types of hard, but they only seem to think their version of hard is valid.
@@Bobington11 What scares me the most is it is these types of people that are the loudest and get the best platform. Granted the complainers are a giant mass of people but they are all lumped up as one. These guys are individual, same as the Echo players and the Liquid players etc. Blizzard has clearly followed their lead on what they want. M+ has suffered for it, raid has suffered for it. Making end game content for the 1% is impossibly silly. I couldn't imagine the mountain a new person would have to climb to understand the nuances of this game to raid high end or to push high keys.
I think 1 mythic piece of gear for clearing BRD would've made it super worth it for the difficulty.
It´s not getting much better Tettles, i think the problem right now is that gearing should be a casual activity. And then you go about and do the content you want, if you want really hard content there´s infinite key levels after 10 to eventually hit your wall. There´s absolutely no need to have anything like a wall before that.
If you add too much friction too early no matter if it´s a tight timer or tight survival it´s just endless pain for the greater community.
DF S2-4 were beloved not because high keys were easy, but because you got the actual gear needed to do them without it feeling like your 2nd job.
Killing a mythic boss gives gear therefore should be a casual activity. Gear is a reward for doing a hard task, if you don't put the effort to do a hard task then you don't deserve the reward of gear.
@@winter83384 i think the way the game is structured it absolutely sucks as a reward. Just remove Mythtrack.
The most hated content in this game is always connected to Playerpower, while the most beloved Content has optional rewards. And that´s not a coincidence. Mage Tower was beloved because it was 100% optional and everyone got to do it on their time. Thorgast was actually great content, but it was hated because you had to do it to gain power.
Let players enjoy the gameplay, donßt force them to grind to make the game playable.
@@winter83384This has always been such a wild, uneducated take on hearing.
“I do hard content, therefore I deserve a reward “
“If you don’t do hard content, you don’t deserve a reward. “
At its core, this doesn’t even make sense. “Hard content” is subjective. We can use analytics to determine certain walls and the percentage of players completing higher key levels or different raid levels, but that doesn’t necessarily make that content inherently “hard”.
I would also like to ask, why would it matter? If every player received loot at the end of a key or during raid, for every boss killed, why would that matter to you?
Let’s just say that a +5 now drops max level hero gear and a +6 drops myth track. Why does that matter?
With infinite scaling dungeons, there will eventually be a wall that players find too difficult/unable to survive. It doesn’t matter what your item level is, eventually the dungeon will kill you due to scaling.
Who cares if a person gets myth track gear super early? That’s not even a problem. It matters to Blizzard only because it has the potential to reduce a players in game time because they’re “finished”.
But honestly, a faster and more appropriate gearing system with less currency would make me play more and play different characters. I would spend more time in game because it’s “fun”.
@@matthewalexander2780 you can actually see the result of "every player gets a piece of loot once a week" in lower keys now, when delve people at like 620 item level que into keys and have 0 clue what's going on, but you, as a person making the group can not distinguish them from people who geared through m+. Don't get me wrong, I do not like myth track gear at all and I want every second of my time spent in mythic raid back, but unfortunately I have to do it. But still, you can not just hand free loot to everyone.
@@matthewalexander2780 yeah i don't know why blizz likes to make lame and complicated gearing systems. i'm a returning player and let me tell you, the gearing in retail is really stupid for someone that has been out of the loop for a while. and i haven't even started to look into the new (to me) crafting system. imo they need to go back to the badge system. you can get moderately good gear (not bis) if you're unlucky with drops/vault. i'm sure gearing is easy to understand once you get used to it, but aside from that, why are there like 4 different tracks for gear? they seem to want to give you these little micro upgrades from spending crests and such, but why not get rid of that complication and go back to a more "traditional" gearing system? i'm ranting at this point.
honestly i'm probably just too old to understand all these newfangled systems and need to retire to some farming sim game
Growl drew the exact wrong conclusion from his poll that the data suggests. Go back and think about your discussion about gear matching the difficulty when it came to raids.. Does the gear rewarded at the plus 7 or 10 difficulty match the effort it takes to pug the content. For that number of people its telling me no. I absolutely hate the phrase "get good" its a complete over simplification of the core problems perpetuated by players that the system doesn't negatively affect.
Maybe the rewards are not motivating people to improve at the rate that acquiring the gear incentives them. I have no issues with difficult content. I do have issues with my time being wasted by overly exhaustive game design.
For the record I am a massive Growl fan. He is a thoughtful person. This podcast misses in my opinion the viewpoint of a very specific group (and that's okay). Skilled players who have less free time that primarily geared to mythic level gear through keys solely pugging. The game is probably at the worst state it's ever been for that specific player base from a purely gearing my character is fun perspective. And a lot of ex-mythic raiders fall into that category.
y, they also just completely ignore that gear plays such a massive role in what is difficult. a 7 on ilvl 600 because you got some gear from delves for your limited playtime in the first week is waay different than people playing it on 610+ with tiersets from full raid clears. And that just snowballs massively in M+, and against M+ only players.
I mean Growl is all about the time&effort thing there, but it´s killing the game for most people - as most people come home from an 8-10hours day, do 2hours of household chores and then want to relax a little.
Ofc you can design the game only for people that want to play the game as their job, but i doubt you´ll be a massive RPG for long that way. Just let everyone progress in power equally, also would make the game much more skill driven than the grinding for ilvl.
There is lots of things talked about... but I can confirm that I am pugging 8 10s per week and 80% success rate is the minimum. That comes with the caveat that I am more than holding up my share of the dungeon, as a warlock I am kicking an average of 15 times per dungeon, doing an average of 1.7m overall damage, using my stops when nobody has a kick, have a very firm grip on the fundamentals of all dungeons and the meta strats, and very rarely dyeing unless it is a wipe.
The whole take of "Well, if you don't like this one aspect of the game, maybe you should just quit." is pretty bad and your take on SV first boss dispel is even worse.
That mechanic is so easy. Healers get one mechanic they have to use 5% brainpower on and they have a meltdown
just read the journal little bro
The take I got from them in the SV is “if you don’t understand a mechanic use your time to learn it” how is that a bad take? It’s how you improve at the game lol
Here is how you make BRD balanced: every heroic bosskill drops an Algar Token of Merit, one token per boss per week, so you can get 8 by clearing all 8 bosses. It's not gamebreaking, but it's enough to incentive people to do it and make it worth their time without being mandatory. (those are the tokens which you use next to the vault, ie 6 = socket or half spark.)
Yo Tettles, 625 ilvl is still fully gilded crest-upgraded heroic gear FYI
BRD drops 612 IL meaning it should be tuned for like 605 or whatever players who actually benefit from going in there. That raid is just straight up not possible in that level of gear pre-nerfs since you won't make damage checks and will outright just die to missing a single kick on like Incendius.
@@amethonys2798 it should be tuned for like 605 if you didnt take the upgrade system into consideration
@@aroix2667 the upgrade system that takes Runed Crests to go above 606? That upgrade system? Where are we getting Runed Crests again? Oh riiiiiiight.....
"Not everything in this game is made to be puggable" when talking about the timewalking raid...
When it comes to the boss example would one boss like this be great yes. Would every single boss in the raid be good like this than no. What I miss is the ebb and flow of combat where there are peak stress times and than longer periods of chill time. I need time to relax before being stressed again, if everything is on a knifes edge of failing for 10-30 min (depending on boss or M+ run) than I just get drained and I don't look forward to the next challenge.
I think this is my main complaint about TWW. In DF you could stress yourself to get a portal or to push than you could fall back and just vibe to get your 8 vaults done. In TWW I have been more stressed than I ever have been in the game and it shows in my lack of tolerance for less skilled or knowledgeable players and just the fact that instead of spamming M+ to have fun and relax for the night after work I find myself watching youtube while doing the dishes. Jesus that says a lot about the state of the game when I realize I would rather do dishes than another +10 key.
y, i also think that is a failure in dungeon design. You want some easy mass pulls to just blast in between the stressful parts. Being fully locked in through 30+mins of a dungeon is just ridiculously stressful. It´s fine to have some very technical pulls in between, but not every darn group has to have more than 1 mechanic.
Tettles is so completely out of touch, and unhinged doubling down on his out of touchness. Good gracious, just stop dude.
Regrettably have to agree here. I know his heart is in he right place but he’s off on quite a bit in this one
just wanted to mention really quick as someone that plays other mmos: the thing that makes pass/fail mechanics in wow so much more miserable (which is why they're done a lot less) is because of how big raids are. If you make a mechanics where EVERYONE must do their part correctly, you're way more likely to have someone make a mistake in a group of 20 people than let's say in a group of 10, which leads to the obvious condition of "wiping because one guy fucked it up even though you did it correctly" (Silken Court)
Damn Growl still has brain damage regarding exploits
Why is growl so out of breath at the beginning lol
He was watching cops
i never understood why blizzard releases mid season patch with the same rewards path as release patch/start season patch, just mae the rewards from mid season patch be one step up compared to start of season. even open world player have nothing to gain from that.
if you read most of the comments on growl poll you can see that the majority that people that voted 7 are people that do 10+, the problem with 7 is that you don't need to learn the dungeon until you get there, and the people that don't learn will never do because they are fine doing the key like that.
tettles try to pug a key +7, wipe once and see if no one leaves, success rate doesnt count leavers.
There are walls, though. In arakara, when the bolts become more dangerous than the aoe is a little wall you hit. EDIT: the pugs not leaving after wipes was a behavior change I legit saw this week even though the change would've only saved 1 key. Ps: the average chance to get loot on group loot isn't the same because it's influenced by your comp; imagine all plate healers and tanks with all hunter dps: the hunters will get less loot.
So if I'm understanding this correctly, it's not that tettles is saying that you ought not to be able to time a key after a wipe, it's that he believes the challengers peril affix dictates that a wipe = brick, or at least that's the goal of the affix...?
Growls jowls are wheezing during this intro dang.
Could you imagine if mythic raid only dropped heroic gear and the raiders only got 1 piece of mythic loot a week from the vault? That's exactly what is happening with m+ only players right now. They're doing harder content with only a chance at a mythic piece of gear weekly. That lack of gear exacerbates the difficulty. Personally I only have 2 pieces of myth track gear right now (and 2 crafted) and have had 2 weeks go by with no upgrades in my vault due to RNG. I run all these dungeons each week with 0 chance of upgrade from end of dungeon loot and then the let down if I don't have any good options in my vault is more devastating. Perhaps a chance at high rolling into a myth track piece at end of dungeon (like rare drop) would be nice and also incentivize people to complete the key instead of abandon. Also give more crests as reward for completion out of time.
1:38:56 ''yeah im 2600 io, im a noob !'' - Squishei with the biggest smile in the universe. pure gold :')
New Affix Suggestion! Do a 180 for next season.
Dependable Challenger !
* You now lose no time on Deaths.
* You unlock a TELEPORT (similar to the mole machine in Uldaman) checkpoint after defeating any boss.
* After dying you respawn at the instance entrance and can choose any unlocked checkpoint to return to.
I wish we could get Myth track gear from end of dung +10. Sucks that as a M+ only player who does the endgame dungeons im limited to 1 piece of Myth gear(if im lucky with vault) a week. While a middle paced guild gets 4+ chances at Myth track gear a week from raid.
Brd was too hard on launch even for decent guilds that already cleared nerubar a few bosses were heavily overturned. In our 10 group we had way higher hps on healers than we ever had on any nerubar boss. Bosses in brd at launch were doing way too much damage for heroic difficulty.
This cold opener is absolutely fire hahahahah love it!
I didnt agree with many points last Episode. Great Idea to show some comments and let Growl and Tettles resond.
When pushing in week one and two (to try to get to +10's) with pugs I didn't have anywhere near an 80% success rate. It was around a 35% success rate. Even now my success rate when doing a weekly farm for +10's (if I can even call it that as I still struggle with these) is extremely variable. When it comes to CoT I have a 0% success rate (and honestly at this point I refuse to even run it anymore) while in mists I have a 85% success rate.
But you said it yourself, this is a farm its supposed to be a weekly grind not a push so you should expect high success rates and we don't see that even. Its why players such as myself are getting burnt out is because every week is a progression run with less than a 50% average success rate.
Edit: Ok nevermind we are saying the same thing.
This feels so sad when the best solution suggested is - "Just quit the game".
I guess it's true, because I already did unfortunately even though I love wow, but I can't afford to try-hard it anymore. Why is wow trying so hard to be e-sport and always being compared to League? It just feels like complete 180 of how it used to be.
Looking at m+ participation it doesn’t seem like you’re the only one. It kinda doesn’t matter if a game is theoretically perfect on paper if there’s nobody playing.
RE: Growl's Tweet about M+ Lvl: I think he's extracting the wrong information from the data-- I am trying to time 12s, but it doesn't mean that if someone's clueless it doesn't hurt starting at the 7s. I just expect to see far less clueless people at the 12 level. And, it's also fair to argue what is considered clueless at a 7 vs. a 12. For example, not dispelling EDNA's debuff at the right time is a problem for 7s, but not going to be an issue at a 12. But not knowing the kick rotations/priority that shifts as keys get harder, and routes evolve around that is much more prevalent at a 12. Does not knowing that as a DPS make you clueless?
I'm frankly tired of all the FotM Prot Paladin rerollers in my keys at this point. They coast by the pisslow keys where nothing kills them because nothing does lethal damage and then they get to like +8s or +9s and get literally one shot by Subjugate on the first boss of CoT on Tyrannical since the class is made out of literal tissue paper without active mit and they see Yoda at rank 1 running full crit gear and no Sentinel.
I healed a 12 Mists key the other week where on the first boss the tree casted fear, and my fear animation walked me into a new puddle spawning killing me instantly. The key ended there. Aside from being a prophet I had no agency over my death.
Exploiting rogues should be banned, thing is even if they switched back to assassination, they got rating advantage in invites.
Failed a 12COT today as the fury warrior "didn't know" about the tank soak on final boss and just sits in it. We would have timed. How does that happen LOL. He'd timed a 10 already, his key.
Hot take, make interrupt work like cleanse, ie. Not got on CD if nothing is interrupted. That would make pugging alot easier.
That's a great idea but the fact some people play pvp and juking a kick is very important this can't happen.
@@ethannumber1 just disable in PvP :)
Or like, a 3s cd if it does not interrupt.
@@ethannumber1 That's even more reason to do it. Anybody who plays PvP knows that juking kicks is the worst mechanic ever introduced. Removing it would be amazing.
@@ethannumber1 Missing a kick in pvp gives 5s of interrupt immunity (with precog gem, but if you're caster you're running it) so I think this would actually be okay.
On the topic of plunderstorm and people dying and going again my strat as someone who is aggressively mid at plunderstorm was to complete the quest asap and then play super aggressively where either i die and have a new quest to get plunder quick or I would start snowballing in power from my aggressive play and id make it to the end and even sometimes win.
This podcast has become the All In Podcast of Wow....
Elitist aristocrats of the game being out of touch with society.
"People who are 2.5k IO cant articulate their thoughts" is tettles trying to suggest ppl who have low IO are dumb?!?!? what an elitist, we can only rely on Growl now
24:48 if anything it extends FURTHER into M+ than raid. There's a reason on average in a PUG a +5 is harder to heal than a +10. Because missing kicks or standing in bad stuff usually doesn't kill you outright people simply stop caring and will just "fail" mechanics out of complacency.
Stonevault is especially bad about it this tier where you'll constantly max stack debuffs on E.D.N.A. and Skarmorax or you will just have people sit on the debuff for 10 years on the last boss because it doesn't outright kill you for doing so and IS able to be compensated for by a now very upset healer.
I did a DB 10 for my vault this week where our healer had to do a whopping like 500k overall HPS due to having absolute gamers in the group. I WISH I could get away with that on some of my rat alts farming Runed Crests, but that just isn't the case since no one hits defensives on mechanics that won't outright kill them and you'll have things like a bomb blowing up on Rashanan or whatever.
Also, side tangent, Prot Paladin being the new "meta" tank exacerbates this and further exposes the problem. That spec is made out of literal tissue paper without active mitigation which, again, does not matter in your +6 key or whatever, but when you miraculously rat your way into my 10 you now suddenly get literally one shot by not having something rolling on every single Subjugate on the first boss of CoT. It doesn't help that players see guides recommend going full crit no Sentinel do oonga boonga damage, despite that being way harder to play since you WILL actually explode 100-0 if you make a mistake due to not having mastery or spell block.
FACTS
Been playing prot all season. Tankbusters are constantly scary, progging 11s and entire attention is on timing defensives properly
Same with prot. Every guide will tell you to go haste/crit while haste/vers will make you way tankier and more reliable for usual tank player or new player to the role.
You don't need to stack every bit of dps on a tank to time 10s. Damage in some dungeon can be WILD, even for safer tank like prot, so be tanky is better in basically every scenario outside of pushing really high key where you need every bit of dps possible and more overall dps to not lose aggro.
@@charliebarlet551 you are a dumbass if you take any vers since all other stats are 100% more important for prot pal.
I did a +7 stonevault yesterday as disc priest pugging and my hps overall was around 750k, while healers do way less than that in +10s on my main
These guys have absolutely no idea what pug life is like.