Esther Perel on What the Other Woman Knows
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- Опубликовано: 16 май 2024
- Over the last two decades, Esther Perel has become a world-famous couples therapist by persistently advocating frank conversations about infidelity, sex and intimacy. Today, Perel reads one of the most provocative Modern Love essays ever published: “What Sleeping With Married Men Taught Me About Infidelity (www.nytimes.com/2018/04/06/st...) ,” by Karin Jones.
In her 2018 essay, Jones wrote about her experience seeking out no-strings-attached flings with married men after her divorce. What she found, to her surprise, was how much the men missed having sex with their own wives, and how afraid they were to tell them.
Jones faced a heavy backlash after the essay was published. Perel reflects on why conversations around infidelity are still so difficult and why she thinks Jones deserves more credit.
Esther Perel is on tour in the U.S. Her show is called “An Evening With Esther Perel: The Future of Relationships, Love & Desire.” Check her website (www.estherperel.com/tour2024) for more details.
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My husband shut me down and denied me of any sex and no intimacy at all. I never went to another man. Im a widow now and im so happy to be free. I couldn't understand it at the time. He broke my heart year after year. Now, in retrospect, i see his behavior as cruel towards me, his wife who loved him unconditionally. 💔
The only ones we should love unconditionally are ourselves, our children, and our parents, not narcissists, not broken and abusive men.
@@meeperbird parents don't automatically get unconditional love. they need to show that they deserve it.
@@jynclr what we sow
Did you discuss with him? What if you had taken a lover? I suppose most of all...other than the lack of sex in the marriage was anything else good?
Doesn’t sound like unconditionally if you were shut down
The 'wives' who don't want sex with their husbands are blamed for the husband straying. Why doesn't she want sex? What are the husbands not doing?
I can only imagine.
Great question!!!
Hormones. Most women have them that go up or down. And the female body loses sexual desire at about a rate of 1% for every month they are in a monogamous relationship.
@@LSSYLondon So do men - as in loosing hormones with aging. But that's not a reason, it's a cop-out for being lazy or not cooperative.
IMO It's the responsibility for each individual in a relationship/marriage as well as the couple together, to do whatever is required for optimum health, including maintaining appropriate hormone levels, providing pleasing + satisfying six to and for each other, communication, and whatever else it takes to keep their relationship active, etc etc.
I'm 61 and my hormones are still alive and kicking - and that without female hormone replacement therapy. There are other things [alternative health solutions, homeopathy, etc] you can do as well that would work for most women just as well [I said most not all].
My former husband was an alcoholic and porn addict, and couldn’t function as a husband and father. It became impossible to maintain any respect, intimacy or desire for him. Our marriage stopped being a partnership under those circumstances. I divorced him and raised a child alone from age 12. Of course, he cheated. He has never apologized to our son, or shown any remorse or regret, which is the ultimate cruelty to a child. I remained faithful, and now live a life of peace, free of someone else’s dysfunction. Infidelity is a complex subject with no easy answers.
Oh the peace that comes from loving yourself. You still fear infidelity, but it’s not the end of the world.
People with avoidant attachment often cheat as a coping mechanism, is NEVER the fault of the spouse. They gaslight, lie, do what ever it takes to sooth themselves. May be good humans, but are also horrible spouses.
True
Yes, very true.
Personally , I disagree. I don’t think you’re a good human being when you’re lying and cheating on your spouse. You’re also are a horrible, crappy spouse.
@@munchey99508 Life is never black and white. Neither is love. Or marriage. Sex outside of marriage is not a crime. People who cheat and lie about outside attachments are functioning in a society that does not allow them to be honest without massive consequences. Loving more than one person is simply not a crime.
But lying should be....its the betrayal that's the most hurtful. @northofyou33
Sometimes, when women don't have sex with their husbands, it's not because they don't like sex. It's because they don't like sex with that man. A man should learn what his wife wants and desires, and then make an effort to keep it interesting for her. If she is mentally sane, she will reciprocate. Women are so unique, and they are physiologically and psychologically complex. Some men love bomb in the beginning, but once they got you, they only bread crumb you. They don't make an effort to cooperate, to help out, to listen. Foreplay starts in the morning and lasts all day. Foreplay is the way you treat your partner all day. It's the little things you do and don't do. Love requires action and responsibility. Love requires communication and compromise. It's totally ridiculous to expect that couples will have wild passionate sex for years and years without any effort. If you talk about it and are realistic, you will navigate the ups and downs of life and of sexual energy together. The grass is not greener elsewhere, it's greener where you water it. Oftentimes. people will go from marriage to marriage having all the same problems even though the partners are different.
Spot on. Men learn your woman!!
Or ask yourself, why a woman would feel passionate towards someone who doesn't care about her, what she thinks and feels, invalidates her, uses her free labor, can't share the load equally and then demands to have sex as a chore because you owe him. Would you feel passionate towards a person who thinks of you as a servant, like an object, who is self-centered and doesn't even consider intercourse as something to share and get close but merely a physiological need they need to use you for? It's disgusting. Before men start to learn their women maybe they should address their issues with emotional intelligence and mysoginy, and proactively fight against it in the society.
Don't be surprised if you treat your spouse like someone who should take care of you but you don't take care of them, that you've become their teenage kid and you're an object of resentment. And don't be surprised she'll dump you when she finally realizes she's worth so much more. How can you expect intimacy if you don't know how to build it.
The times when women believed this manipulation that marriage is good for them are over. It was never good, it was necessary. It was giving up the free labor and being materially dependent BECAUSE we weren't allowed to work and build our own safety. And you perfectly know why, because you don't have anything to offer us besides going to work. Today everybody must work so it's not really impressive. Step up and work on yourself. Being a regular douchebag would pass 80 years ago. Not today. Women are looking for PARTNERS. Add to our life or take care of yourself alone, we're done adding to yours without reciprocation. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, better start searching the statistics how much work on average it is for a woman to be in a relationship merely because of the fact she is with a man. And how much it costs her. DO BETTER or leave us alone.
Very true and well said.
Maybe they never wanted it in the first place, but just use it as a sell job to lure men into marriage. Women use sex as a loss leader.
@@HoneyboyDeslol and women need to learn from their man. Its a two way street.
If someone tells me he'll love me for the rest of his life, I would say to him, but you simply can't know that for sure. Life-long commitment seems to me now such a bizarre idea that has gone unquestioned, unexamed for a long time. If we let go of that obsession of foreverness and instead work on the present moment, maybe a lot of relationships will turn out to be stronger and better.
until death tear us apart... What????
I whole heartedly agree!! I don’t even want to get married by the State anymore.
I think about this all the time! I think you're right on.
Most of the comments focused on “cheating” and “the other woman” “not right…”, TOTALLY missed the point: IF we can’t talk about intimacy or the lack of it with our partner, THAT is what can and mostly does lead to people going outside the marriage. Turning a blind eye to your partners’ desires and putting them down, refusing sex and being guarded with intimacy leads to a person not feeling wanted and eventually, attraction occurs and at times opportunities present themselves. In NO way am I condoning cheating, because I’m not, it’s a horrible, selfish thing… AND intimacy and the ability to have sexual freedom with our partners IS what leads to long lasting marriages! It helps break down the wall that gets built when intimacy and love are taken away! Obviously, my opinion 😊
As the essay mentions, people are too afraid to learn the truth of what caused the breakdown in their relationship, because more often than not, both are at fault, and it starts long before cheating happens. The one who cheats is too afraid to learn why their partner lost the desire for them, and on the receiving end, It's easier to put all the blame for the broken marriage on the cheater and hide your own faults behind the cheater's actions. The act of cheating souldn't override everything else that happened in the relationship before someone stepped out.
@@anzelaiv Very true. Sadly on these sites, it’s a blame game. The pain is so great that denial is easier.
Well if sex and intimacy is most important for one of the partner, then break off and find a new partner instead of staying in marriage and cheating
The lack of intimacy is the symptom …
It’s narcissism born out of insecurity or narcissism born out of entitlement.
@@dawnsongz4u449 Withholding of intimacy and sex is selfish and abusive. Forcing celibacy and withholding connection, affection and sex is not an act of love. It's the ultimate act of infidelity holding another person hostage while demanding monogamy but forcing celibacy.
I’ve been on both sides. Cheated on by husbands and now have a married friend where it has crossed lines, in my opinion. I don’t think anyone can truly understand the complexity of the situation until they’ve been in it. This friendship has given me a much greater understanding of why my husbands cheated, what my role was, what I could have done differently, etc. I’m not justifying anyone’s behaviour but I’m certainly not judging it either. Simply put, you don’t know the depths of anyone else’s situation. Through compassion comes understanding. Through understanding comes forgiveness. And we can ALL use some forgiveness in so e way or another.
so you both betrayed the other, and since it was so fun, you understand how the partner did it. been there done that and i will NEVER again, because it IS FUN and that is not enough of an excuse to betray your mate. get out of the kitchen when you can't stand the heat of denying pleasure outside your couple.
So well said Ester 20:55
You made a decision about our marriage without me
I really don`t understand how the wives who don`t want or can have sex any more don`t have a talk with their husbands about the situation and what they are ok with him doing to get that outside of marriage. Same if the husband doesn`t want sex any more and the wife is facing that problem.
I am a woman and if I would become disabled in a way where I can`t have sex any more I would talk to my husband about how he wants to deal with that and what I am ok with. I mean these are adult people, they must be aware that their partners still want to have sex and cannot live in a situation where they don`t get that for years and decades. This sounds like they don`t have real partnerships, but just this institution of marriage.
As she mentions, people don't know how to talk about such things. But some refuse to talk about it because they can't accept the idea of their spouse stepping out for any reason. You are right, it's not always a partnership, many marry to get, but not to give.
I think they know the husband might seek outside sex but they don't want to know about it.
They ignore it.
I absolutely love her. So many meaningful dimensions & depths within her teachings. It seems to unearth & re-frame the essence of love & intimacy, sans the societal dogma, with reason and compassion ❤
😢Why is intimacy always described only as in sex ?
The word also applies to self intimacy, intimacy in relationships, in friendships, in professional exchanges, between parents + children, between children among themselves...
Heidi Priebe elucidates this topic conclusively.
She gives meaning + wholesomeness to it, in this sense.
Surely if intimacy were to be achieved in this way, there would be less pain, confusion + slack in how relationships evolve ?
Everyone would be more grounded. And the moral side, along with shame, guilt + blame would not take the scene as much as they do.
This being said, 👇
Tone, timbre, authenticity which Ms. Perel refers to puts her in her line of genius - active listening to people's needs to express themselves. And in the sex meaning of this word, intimacy. Mustering up the strength to speak about sex with one's spouse is such a kind + compassionate way of addressing Love and it's complexity. I applaud Ms Perel constantly.
Because sex is the primary thing men want from intimacy. Everything else is the price of admission.
Because every single type of "non physical" intimacy you described can be had by ANYONE in our lives. We are all human. We all crave physical touch. We all need physical touch.
Intimacy requires walls/barriers/boundaries to be lowered - even fully eliminated for the most satisfying and fulfilling intimacy. It also requires the deepest level of mutual respect because one can crush the other with their words/actions to a depth that no one else in our lives can hurt us. This level of vulnerability is NEVER achieved from a friend/family/child. Sure - a friend/family/child can hurt us - but the betrayal of a spouse is the worst hurt. Hard stop.
Its realizing theres two branches of intimacy: emotional and physical. And each branch has many levels/depths to it.
Its not until you stand before your spouse and say the words "...to have and to hold...." are we making the promise to each other: yea, out of all the people in the world, only YOU will I fully lower my walls down, as you will also do to me, and we will freely give ourselves mind/body/soul to each other. That is a promise, an obligation, a duty, a sacrifice and an honor - all wrapped up in 5 little words.
Sadly - 80% of men know this on Day 1 of their marriage; and only 20% of women.
The majority of these top comments are the most reassuring thing I have seen online in a decade.
anyone who thinks that cheating brings a couple closer is in denial, is lying to everyone around them including themselves, and has a serious issue accepting reality. the only thing that cheating bring a couple closer to is divorce. period. I swear the sh*t that people try to convince others of believing. so sad.
Wrong. The vast majority of marriages that have cheating are ones where the couple stays together and becomes closer because the truth of a failing marriage is brought into the light and a new negotiation can happen. This is reality.
@@LSSYLondonI understand the sentiment but as someone who has gone through it there is just no going back. I can build something new but it’s always lingering. It can bring about a closer bond but at what cost? If cheating is on the horizon just leave.
Obviously you cheated @LSSYLondon
@@MeandmySara nope try again
Personally I was married to a serial cheater and that never would have worked out lol, so I get you. But actually, over half of marriages survive infidelity and 70% of those say they came out stronger as a couple.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:20 *🔥 Esther Perel's work challenges assumptions about long-term love, exploring how passion evolves and infidelity impacts relationships.*
01:43 *💔 People often struggle with maintaining happiness in long-term relationships, leading them to seek advice from experts like Esther Perel.*
02:09 *🎭 The essay discussed in the interview, "What Sleeping with Married Men Taught Me About Infidelity," delves into complex themes around infidelity and its impact on individuals and relationships.*
06:13 *🗣️ Esther Perel emphasizes the complexity of infidelity, beyond mere sexual betrayal, highlighting its effects on trust, lying, and deception.*
07:14 *💑 Karen Jones' essay explores her experiences as the other woman, shedding light on the motivations behind infidelity and the complexities of desire and intimacy.*
09:21 *🤔 Married men seeking affairs often desire any form of sex, not just more, while facing challenges within their marriages, such as lack of intimacy or their partners' loss of interest in sex.*
10:37 *🌍 Cultural differences influence perceptions of truth and honesty in relationships, impacting how individuals navigate discussions about infidelity.*
12:58 *🤐 The essay raises questions about the ethics of keeping secrets in relationships and whether silence can sometimes be kinder than confession.*
16:43 *📝 Esther Perel suggests using letter-writing exercises to facilitate difficult conversations about intimacy and sexuality between partners.*
19:10 *📝 Cultural perspectives influence attitudes towards infidelity, with differing views on honesty and confession in relationships.*
21:28 *🗣️ Esther Perel advocates for open and honest conversations about sexuality and intimacy between partners to address underlying issues that may lead to infidelity.*
23:00 *🚫 Societal taboos around discussing sexuality contribute to difficulties in addressing intimacy issues within relationships, potentially leading to infidelity.*
26:51 *🎟️ Esther Perel is currently touring the US with her show "An Evening with Esther Perel," exploring the future of relationships, love, and desire through live experiences.*
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Thank you so much for this complete timestamped summative outline of this video!!! You've blessed me with the gift of time for now I feel like I've heard Esther Perel speak on much of all this before so I have no need to waste my time listening to it all the way through. Moreover, it's a quite lengthy video and it's past my bedtime, and if not for you, I'd be distracted from getting some valuable zzzs!!! I wish every RUclips video had an outline like this one made available to viewer audiences. God bless you 🙏❤
Liars and thieves.
* If someone cheats on you ONCE - they have a 350 per cent chance of doing it again
Such a random number…
Not all people who cheat are narcissists however very many people who cheat are narcissists. Narcissists capitalise on their partners blaming themselves for almost every thing as they they take no accountability. Teachings about cheating that place a sense of blame back on the one being cheated on is dangerous when it comes to people who are with narcissists
Over 90% of the world is not pathological yet that is about the same amount that cheat and that is about the same amount that would lie about cheating.
I agree. Not all cheaters are narcissists, but many are. HG Tudor speaks about this.
@@RationalNon-conformist I think people have a choice and in my opinion it is never the fault of the person who was cheated on. The cheater still made a choice not to leave the relationship before doing that. I’ll have a look at who you mentioned there, thank you. Doctor Ramani has many fantastic videos on the subject too :)
Can a loving mother who cheats on her husband be a narcissist?
@@Ilyevey hi I’m not really sure of what you’re suggesting with your question? I did state I don’t think all people who cheat are narcissists
I adore Esther for so many reasons. As a serial monogamist I’m grateful to know this about myself. 💜💕💜💕 this interviewer is brilliant as well.
24:38 “They will consider the confession often as cruelty.” That makes me think of the scene in “Revolutionary Road” where Frank (Leo) confesses his affair to April (Kate).
This seems so weird. Why wouldn’t you just sleep with a younger men if you only want sex, not someone’s husband who’s going through midlife crisis..
He's pre-vetted
@@marvelgurl1012 that’s true but this lady who wrote the article specifically was sleeping with married men knowingly.
Usually when people "don't know" they're dating someone married, its because they don't want to know.
It's usually not very hard to figure out. The cheating partner can only ever meet for very limited windows of time, almost exclusively on week days right after work.
She explained it. She doesn't want attachment. And married men are less likely to get attached.
She’s brilliant at her craft
Wow, from the comments it seems like the audience is doing exactly what Esther said would happen. Tell me youre Americans without telling me. She nailed it about the dogmatic, pragmatic, views of culture that can affect how this conversation goes.
Who's surprised?
I know the other woman shouldn't be meddling in other people's marriages. Period.
Darling maybe a few do that but often things are more complicated than the other woman and I have been both and at the same time. My husband had been in an affair for Six years without my knowledge and I fell in love with another man who was in committed relationship. It was only then that my, now ex husband, confessed he had a mistress.
@@annamillan2903 I stand by what I said.
My husband and I had sex twice on a five day honeymoon, and it went downhill from there. Eventually we were having sex every six weeks or so (both in early twenties). After three years of rejection I fell in love with another man. He was irate and had zero insight why I would leave despite several therapy sessions I knew it over. My boyfriend and I had incredible intimacy and love, the x husband I believe is still trying to figure out what he did wrong
You made the classic woman mistake. You are to get divorced FIRST. Committing adultery was wrong
I feel the same when I listen to her podcast! :)
You could be doing everything right, and some men will still cheat on you. In fact the other woman is usually someone with low self esteem, which isn’t attractive to high quality guys. Yes they can seem outgoing or hyper sexual at first but that’s because they know they’re in competition, whereas the wives don’t. Cheating isn’t just about sex. It’s also about ego-stroking, dopamine and validation. Can we please stop blaming the victim (ie wife)? Cheaters and addicts have a common characteristic - lying. An honest partner could have every reason to cheat, but they won’t! They’d rather divorce or go to therapy than degrade themselves in that way.
Agreed
I'm patient, understanding, love communication, I'm driven(I work and I'm getting my second degree), set clear boundaries, I also cook, clean, take care of myself, dress nicely, I keep my mind sharp, f*ck his brains out at least twice per week and I'mopen to experimentnew stuff. He still cheated. With a girl we met through his friends. This girl came in my house and ate at my table. She is depressed(her ex committed suicide 1y ago), imature, 27y old with no job and no prospect(the ex was paying for everything, also the ex before that), she didn't strike me as funny or interesting in any way, but she is taller and skinnier than me though. Men like easy. Easy doesn't call them out on their bullshit and easy is easily impressed so it strokes their ego. And easy saw the house, the car and everything we have built together and she thought she can have it. She can't, because she is not ME. The only thing she got was some d, and then he became quickly bored with her and ran to me to confess....
Dead bedrooms once you learn about it is really a thing that screws with your head about relationships.
Absolutely
@@markcavandish1295 though I’ve heard Adam lane smith talk about it from an attatchment perspective + in newly weds with significant drop in sex, often the culprit is low testosterone in the woman, it drives sex in both of us.
@@DaveE99I totally believe that.
I’ve actually been trying to get my wife’s primary care physician to look into vaginal estrogen cream (HRT) as a possibility of helping with both her perimenopausal UTI’s and zero libido, but she refuses stating she isn’t menopausal yet.
I enjoyed this, but I guess I was expecting some sort of checklist of what they know.
I smiled when Esther said she always wanted to learn Arabic. My spirit knew right away. I want to learn Arabic too. It’s a rich language.
Love Esther….she is such a treasure! Thank you 🙏♥️♥️
I appreciate knowing what as a wife I did not opened up to . I think the author had opened up to something that is important and uncomfortable. I think this frankness is important.
5:40 She becomes the “other woman” not to several men but to their partners.
I call bull crap! My husband cheated for over 20 years despite me being the one with the high sex drive. I strived for connection all the time, doted on him, showed for love and communicated effectively. In the end some people no matter how much you give will only take and seek the thrill of cheating itself. They’re too broken to seek help and would much rather be destructive then work on themselves or their marriage. Period.
Interesting. A couple of important things I'm not hearing, though. What's going on for/with the "other woman" emotionally or otherwise, what she misses out on in terms of stability, committment and depth of emotional experience, particularly if she must live in the shadows, where is THAT at? Also the little problem of disease associated with sexual promiscuity -
STDs are no joke.
Agree, deception and lying are ultimately corrosive, at least in most circumstances.
Appreciate the discussion. Thank you for sharing.
Most relationship that lack sex are not otherwise fulfilling relationships 😒
No excuses for cheating. Zero. If the wives doesn’t want intimacy then thats grounds for divorce. Don’t stay its no longer a marriage.
I guess this is what Esther meant with: this topic is highly dogmatic ;)
If the relationship is working well, the "wives" will not deviate .. 😊
How about the husband????? It happens
@@louisaweiler5340Cheaters, cheat. No one has to cheat. The decent thing is to end the relationship or be truthful with the other person about wanting to "open" the relationship
@@susanwhite7474 A lot of men don't want to leave a relationship just because their wives wanted something sexually. Same thing for a lot of women. Marriage isn't one way.
The idea that all cheaters have a "dead bedroom" and it's not BS cheaters say at this point is laughable
Exactly.
Agree
Yup
No one can be truly free in a relationship.
If fear is what is associated with a relationship it is true.
Free for what??
In that case, no one can be truly free in general, not only in marriage. As we are constricted by laws, rules, regulations, as well as we are influenced by many things that we do and don’t have awareness!
Sure you can be free in a relationship as long as you and your partner are flexible and creative
Freedom always ends where another persons freedom begins.
It is a negotiation.
An agreement of two people.
What works for them.
But turning away toward a third party instead of toward partner is usually not the most constructive thing to do.
See the Gottmanns and the bids for connection predictive theory for relationships to thrive & last.
✌️
Esther is not the ultimate guide for all of us. She’s that “ultra cool” person that I will never achieve being and I’m fine with that. I’m over it.
Life is happier when you're authentic. I wonder how many people make themselves miserable trying to be cool. It is probably jejeune.
What do you mean by "ultra cool"?
I LOVE Esther Perel. 👍💔
This woman is wise
What a frustrating 28.01 minute "conversation". I wished the interviewer would just let Esther talk, without needing to comment at all the moments when Esther was really getting to the crux of what needed to be said.
Love it, the way people marvel at European polyglots. In many countries, it's a common necessity in many countries to be fluent in 2 -8 languages. I was born in the USA. in a small town in the USA. Native level in 5 languages, fluently read a 6th.
I wouldn't say in 8 languages, but maybe few.
@@destinychild4659 My comment did say 2 - 8 languages.
I wish there were more podcasts for people who are the affair partner. We also feel and are given love, and we also hurt. And we could use some compassionate advice that is not simply "stop doing it." It's not always about "meddling." It can be about two people falling for each other, caring for each other.
After your first sentence. Not really. As soon as you know they’re married, STOP. Don’t get further involved. No matter how deeply they say they love you. Even if they claim the marriage is unhappy. It’s the vows they made before God that matter & God takes that seriously. If the “affair partner” was wanted above the spouse then they’d be with you; they’d leave what they had at home & they’d be with you.
This is a very convoluted topic that is not simple as some want to make it. I personally know a couple that are married and allow others into their bedroom openly!!
I found that when men cheat they seem to find someone that is lesser of a person than the wife.
Someone they weren’t even on guard with or thinking they would want. Or they should stay away from or that it’s too dangerous/ too tempting.
Until suddenly it was. Usually by way of an unexpected “innocent “ kiss
I think people are afraid that they are going to lose their relationship with the one they love if they talk about the lack of sex in their relationship.
I agree that there is fear but give it a try and just say I expected more sex in our relationship and I don’t want to live the rest of my life not enjoying sex and intimacy. We have a great relationship otherwise but do you think it’s best we visit a sex therapist
It's funny how people always assigns blame to the person who was cheated on when it actually always comes down to the person who cheated. A person makes a choice to cheat. We all have our own agency to control our choices. Cowards cheat. You're also a coward if you don't tell your partner why you don't want intimacy with them. If you don't tell your partner about your concerns in your relationship, you are a coward. If you tell that person and you can't fix the issues, move on. I know some factors play a major role in why people stay but we all are the architects of our own problems. We choose to live in uncertainty. We choose to live in deception. You can become a prisoner of your own insecurity. That doesn't mean someone else has to pay the price for it. Let them go if it will never go anywhere.
Perel seems to blame the betrayed. Not a fan for this reason.
@@amc3964Perel says many types of betrayal...actually
I agree. It's very simple. If you can't communicate with your partner that's on you.
@anonanon7553 How is it on you if you communicate well, are willing to and partner is not...only deflects and denies, gets defensive unreasonably and there is no resolution because they will not discuss? I suppose then it is on you if you can and do communicate with your partner and they refuse communication with you about the difficult stuff (or anything uncomfortable to them). It's really not that simple and can be very frustrating...unless you mean...well if my partner refuses to communicate on important issues then it's simple, I will just leave. Sure, that might be clear black/white thinking but lives can be messy often because of external circumstances that we (nor our partner created). Can actually be complex and there are various ways relationship can be managed.
How is a partner's unwillingness to communicate with you on any given issue (and you are willing and able to communicate with them)...how is their refusal to communicate/discuss, etc..."on you?"
@@csmith9699 great point
What a wonderful broadcast. I think so many people are naive about love and sex. You learn the hard way, or you don't learn. Or maybe there is no need for harsh lessons in your life. Your imagination can torture you.
Interesting. It turns me on to know my partner has been loyal. And I ask that.
Hello,
How did I know going into this that the author was going to engage married men, act like she’s not participating in facilitating cheating, and then sit in judgement of the men she takes into her bed. Standard _no accountability._
Another reason why people don't talk about sex is bcuz there is a lack of commitment in the relationship. Without that, women especially, are reluctant to have sex or to even talk about it.
I've always felt like it's the person who takes the vows that bears the responsibility for adultery. For that reason, I very unironically refer to cheating men as homewreckers, too. Anyone stepping out of their marriage is a homewrecker to me.
Exactly. People who knowingly sleep with partnered people in closed relationships are not winning any ethics award either but it is NOT their fault the relationship ends. They are not the homewrecker. It is solely the people who took the vows that are responsible for adhering to them.
I was in sexless marriage for 40 years due to marrying asexual man by family match making . 20 years of that was separated but legally married.
During separation, I had an affair with a married friend. It was not intentional. It was very painful experience.
It was no accident.
Yes, it was intentional.
You need to own your sh*t.
👍
Why was it painful? Didn't you get joy out of it?
I appreciate your honesty and I'm sorry other people feel the need to judge you so harshly. I think your circumstance was very unfair and must have been extremely difficult for so long. It's completely understandable that you found yourself connecting intimately with someone. It's a perfectly natural need for a human and I truly hope you are not burdened with any guilt society's ideals may try to force on you.
@@HoneyboyDes His wife was my friend.
Choosing to live in a bad marriage doesn’t give you a pass to be the third wheel in another person’s marriage. Make no mistake about it. The affair was intentional because you made the decision to accept this married man’s advances. Own it.
I generally love Esther and her work. However, the basis for this podcast, this article by Karin Jones, is entirely untethered and ungrounded in anything that I respect. This woman knowingly helped men cheat on their spouses. This is not someone we should be looking to for "insights" or advice. Her morally corrupt perspective is of no interest to me, sorry. I also think there is a lot more to the story than the wives "just stopped having sex with their husbands". Why did they stop, why did they lose interest in sex with them? That is the greater question to be explored here.
Lack of communication, lack of closeness, realization that they are very different people with very different habits and preferences... people change.
@@jarkachalmovianska7812 Then be open and honest. No reason to cheat.
@carinawulff1673. Good points made. This lady cheated with other men after she was divorced. Did she say why she divorced? Did she rejoice at being divorced? Did she experience pain etc.? Did she stop to think of what those wives would have gone through once they found out....they always find out even if it's some time after? Sounds like behind it all she was trying to justify or validate her reasons for being with married men. Why not choose single men? You asked some good questions at the end. I'd add that many times the husband does not communicate well if at all with his wife about his true feelings and he doesn't truly understand or see his wife in the same light...maybe for ego or selfish reasons. What does one say about those husbands who choose to cheat on the wife with a newborn? There are many faithful, committed, unsuspecting wives out there who try hard but get cheated on repeatedly...what does one say to them? The trauma they experience? The bottom line is cheating in all forms is very destructive. Scripturally speaking infidelity is not the way to go.
@@ebest1338 I totally agree with you. If there are problems in the relationship, cheating is never the answer. Leave. Ask for a divorce. Ask for an open relationship. Obviously, these are hard things to deal with, but anything is better than manipulation, deception, and dishonesty.
@anonanon7553 Yes, that's right. Manipulation, deception, and dishonesty are killers. Finding out that this is what your husband was feeding you along with defensiveness and gaslighting, knowing full well he was repeatedly cheating is not easy on the unsuspecting wife. It is not. What does one say to that? And top it off, it's not like he stopped having sex with the wife. Is the wife still to blame? Again, I reiterate...infidelity is not the way to go. It's damaging. It's never forgotten no matter how much work one puts in to recover. We only manage to go on by learning how to cope with the aftermath. Only God can help us move forward.
Marriage is a legal institution which is actually doubting trust in between two human beings. It is for me amazing to see how people still overlook this basic fact. However some people still manage to love each other in spite of marriage. Well done!
The day marriage disappear most of the therapists and lawyers will loose their job.
Until then have fun!
Don't bet on it!
The history of marriage says it all. It is out dated. People need to catch up. You won’t have divorcee written on your coffin ⚰️ 😂
If you love someone why chain them to you? You don’t need to. Let them be free. And if they want to go, let them go, greatest act of love ever ❤
Good point. There's nothing romantic or loving about a marriage, it's a contract that ensures a form of stability for the children. It's nothing more than a promise of cooperation between adults. Anything beyond that is a romantic fantasy that prevents people from accepting reality.
The cheating spouse isnt honest about home life to get something extra on the side. Wants both.
How should we talk about sexual intimacy with our partners or others?
The divorce rate alone, without the added percentages of infidelity that doesnt lead to an actual divorce, prove that monogamy is NOT statistically viable for most ppl. Few ppl would invest alot of money into an expensive car that failed 93% of the time, as that would be ridiculous. Affairs should be normal and acceptable part of life. Younger generations no longer accept that an institution that fails 93% of the time is a desireable model. And they are practicing polygamy openly, along with Prenuptial agreements so that in case of divorce, the financial arrangements and child custody issues are already worked out. Which causes far less pain to all ppl and their families than some ugly expensive divorce that is nothing but a mud-slinging public festival of blame throwing.
Using the internet to lining their pocket
Suit yourself, but lying is a choice you are making, the other person does not have a choice unless you tell them.
You pronounced her name wrong every single time.
There are so many commonly held misconceptions here. There’s a reason you chose Karen Jones essay because it’s inflammatory! And false.
Some of the false statements that seem to be accepted as facts are:
1. Women in menopause have a sharp downturn in desire and men don’t experience anything similar. 😂 ED meds are not being marketed to women
2. Men have affairs because they are not sexually active with their wives. The insinuation is that she had to step in to fulfill them because their wives (according to the cheating spouse) were sexually DUSABLED!
3. That only men have affairs. That only women are cheated on. Because only women are willing to live in a man’s shadow-the couples therapist added this slap to all women!
4. That the person being cheated on is the one falling short in fulfilling the other partners needs. That the cheated on spouse is sexually cold, or not putting in the effort or DISABLED. AND “unwilling to have the hard conversations”.
5. These assumptions are interesting because in the essay both parties engaging in the affairs were claiming to want mechanical sex with no emotional ties But both are putting themselves in hero and victim role-Jones by saying she’s the sexual hero to these men and the victim of divorce and the men she sites saying they are heroic staying with the woman they married and “love” them but victimized sexually and emotionally by their spouse.
6. That’s not what it in actuality was. In this case-at least as told in the essay by the author-It was an attempt by several parties to be adored with no risk or vulnerability! To pretend they are not who they actually are-to escape authenticity. To not feel the pain of-in Jones case divorce! So instead-she turned to being adored artificially in a sexually deviant lifestyle. Then passed judgment in wildly broad strokes on the version of the spouse she was presented with by the men who admitted to lying and deceiving people they “love”. 😂
Jones and her partners chose to feel superior and wrote themselves into their own fantasy as the fulfilled and sexually adventurous ones. Ha ha.
Drum roll for the “couples therapist” to enter the scene and 28:02 28:02 to charge you to tell you the things you can do to stop your spouse from cheating through erotic education. 🤑💰💵💲
Pity the fools who fall for this!
Just from reading the title my response was: Other woman? Have a wonderful life. Peace out.
My husband has ED. Nothing seems to work (not even Viagra). I. Just turned 47 and I love him but can't see myself without d for the rest of my life and it would be ridiculous for me to leave my decent marriage over it. I am becoming increasingly resentful because I don't want to use sex toys. What am I to do?
Have an affair. You have every right to. He would have to understand, if he found out, and you have every right to defend yourself. Put the ball in his court. He can leave if he want's to, or stay if he wishes.
Does he have a porn and masturbation addiction? That'll cause ED which viagra can't necessarily fix.
There are other ways of having see if you and your husband really care for each other
Try using hands and fingers instead of penis
It can be great if you find the right spots !
Ask for an open relationship. If he says no, do it anyway. It's not cheating. If there's honesty, then it doesn't count as cheating. It's called an ultimatum.
Try an anti-inflammatory diet and pelvic floor rehab for him. Make sure u address your resentment. I can't imagine how emasculated he must feel. Be compassionate and get intimacy back which goes beyond sex.
My husband is only kind in the bedroom. Out of it he Is a covert narcissist. It is a true mind fu&k. Stopped loving him years ago.
Oh course she got criticism, honesty always does
Not experimenting on us! Different as change
?
If it was a fling, I wouldn't want to know. Let him live with it forever.
In my opinion, as a long time admirer of this therapist, she seems to think with both her right and left brain.
A question for the men: If your marriages was not lacking sex would you still find it possible to fall in love with another worman? Or is lack of sex the only reason men cheat?
I guess from my experience, wives need to feel more overpowered, and remain more woken up about what they feel and sense. Do not stay with someone thats no longer sparkling any flame; sexual, emotional etc. Guys are very afraid to make a decision, they can remain the same for decades. Shake the floor! Feel alive, move on.
No I think Esther is wrong on the talking about sex. If you are compatible on an intimate level it comes naturally to speak about ❤
I think that is rare though. I understand her point about not talking about it at all until the stakes are high... seems like an oversight for human development and communication.
This is not correct. It comes naturally only to those who were raised a certain way and were conditioned to believe that openness and honesty are safe and beneficial to practice. Most people don't receive such modeling growing up. It has nothing to do with compatibility.
@@anzelaiv Completely disagree. If you are compatible you have a natural tendency to be open about everything with one another. It’s a natural state of being when you are compatible and where true love is present. In a sense you are so deeply connected to the other that you sense everything from the other person in a natural form and that is the door for clear communication between you both.
People are defending themselves in that criticism
Sex as a weapon can be dangerous
Suggesting that truth is subjective based on culture is absurd, and a very harmful thing to pose. There is no such thing as personal truth, my truth versus your truth. Truth is absolute. Gravity doesn't apply to you only if you think it does, it is a universal law that applies to everyone, and the same goes for love. Either something is loving and life-giving, or it's not. Thinking that deception is protecting someone is pandering and it's not speaking to the higher potential in each of us. Everyone must be given the chance to do what they will with the information they are given, but everyone deserves the wholehearted, complete truth. Because it has an effect on them whether or not they know it.
wow i didnt know esther speaks so many languages
I'm sorry but that description of her 'favourite married man' sounds quite idealized... I don't know how anyone can take love advice from that woman 😅
I think couple therapists job is to keep couples together….Even if the cost of staying together is an unfulfilled unhappy life…that’s why I would never go to a couple therapist but instead to a psychologist or therapist alone
The job is to help the couple find a way to repair their relationship, and if there is no way, to guide them through separation.
I guess my issue is that the assumption is that a married person needs some kind of closeness they aren’t getting when in fact i myself am involved in a relationship where we fell in love and that led to a second relationship. I left my spouse. He is still with his (stereotypical) but we are very close. We have far more compatibility than with our spouses, we are so similar and haven’t had that level of understanding. I know quite a few who left their marriages for an affair partner and are still with them. So it varies widely.
Have any of you remarried your affair partner?
@@beac8238 She said she left hers, but he is still with his wife - so clearly not.
@@ssiegreen5292 have *ANY* of you remarried your affair partner?
@@beac8238 Re-marrying someone indicates that you were married and consequently divorced to someone.
I know of only 1 woman friend in my acquaintance that married her "affair partner". But he was already legally + physically separated when they met, and she broke it off with her husband shortly after [long coming though, I think she just needed the push to make it legal], so I'm not sure that this actually counts? Other than that, I don't think I know anybody else who actually married someone they had an affair with.
I know of a married woman undergoing chemo who is sleeping with a single man undergoing chemo. Their justification was that chemo prevented them from sleeping with partners who were not receiving treatment. I don't know if the woman discussed the situation with her husband before beginning the affair. Do you think this medical condition changes the moral undertones of the act? I suppose it would all depend on how the husband felt about it.
It takes two to tango, until three or more are involved.
What would the wife do if he treated her like he does the mistress?
Generally cheating is a cop out, rationalizing away ones actions, both people that know about the marriage are responsible. Maybe in other cultures it is understood there will be infidelity on part of the man, but woman may even suffer death if she cheats.
Try being married with someone who has withheld sex for years or even decades for no GD good reason other than her own selfish reasons - then preach about it. there are a LOT of reasons some men cheat. some men will cheat regardless of the situation - but MOST men don't, unless their Wife decides to remove sex form the relationship (which is on the rise and becoming more and more popular among women).
@@melkerner hahaha cant you tell the person you want to step out so you can offer to get a divorce? You're just pulling a power play.
@@marymcclunglaw5342 Still have kids in the home - I don't relish bankruptcy over the inevitable child support payments. All are adopted - so post partum is not the issue. Not a thing to laugh about - that tells me everything I need to know about where you are coming from.
I started out really loving Ester, her famous Ted talk helped me a lot after I discovered my husband’s infidelity.
But I can’t get my head around the actions of the other woman. Why did she do this? Why when my husband told her he was struggling, why did she immediately throw herself at him? Why didn’t she tell him to either a) speak to his wife or b) tell him to seek professional help? Why did she think it was okay to make romantic moves on him?
My man then had a mental and physical breakdown due to his guilt. He stopped eating and his weight plummeted. All physical intimacy with me, even the hugs and goodbye kisses stopped. Of course I noticed. I’ve been with the man for over twenty years I can read him like a book. I knew immediately something was wrong.
He risked losing me and the kids, for what? A bit of new skirt at work who showed an interest? he opened up to the wrong person who should have given him advice, not tried to get in his pants!! Meanwhile, of course I noticed. I might have been in the upheaval of a new job and cancer diagnosis, but fucking hell if I had known what was going on with him, I could have helped!
I keep trying to put myself in the shoes of this other woman and I can’t do it. I can never envision a moment in my life where a guy at work starts opening up to me about his personal life and then instead of telling him to ‘go home and talk to your wife’ or ‘if you can’t do that, at least seek some therapy’ - instead of all of the above I can’t imagine myself calling him over to a quiet spot and forcibly kissing him. Knowing that he’s married with kids and having a personal crisis. No matter how much I fancied the guy I can’t ever imagine being that fucking selfish, having that little self-respect. Or having zero conscious about what I was doing to him and the wife and family once it all became known. And it will always become known. What kind of a person does THAT? A predator, a narcissist, a fucking bitch with zero humanity, that’s who.
I hope this other woman stays lonely and miserable in her sad pathetic life for what she did.
Since then we have done everything that Ester talked about, talked more than we ever have done in the past, are enjoying the best sex we’ve ever had. Are closer and stronger now than we’ve ever been. I might have that bitch to thank for that, but in all honesty I still wish she’d just told him to come home and talk to me. Then at least I wouldn’t have had to learn about his infidelity and have my whole world and everything we built and everything I thought I knew about us and all the trust that was built up over 20 years come crashing down. Because that was the most painful experience I have ever had, and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.
Except the fucking bitch, I really hope that one day, when she’s struggling and at her lowest, some fucking cow doesn’t tell her struggling partner to come home. I hope that other woman makes her partner start to question his marriage and it destroys their trust. Hopefully Karma is coming for her. I wouldn’t piss on her if she was on fire.
So how about we stop excusing the man for having no choice but to go elsewhere? How about we start fucking vilifying the other bitch of woman who predates on married men? Where are her morals? How about THAT?
Because I did not ask for any of this. I did not deserve any of this. I did not create any of this. Yet I’m the one to blame? FUCK THAT NOISE.
Seriously. Be a better person. Tell that man to go home. Have more self respect and chase people who are not married. Okay?
Ffs. I can’t believe that needed to be said.
I’m sorry to hear your husband cheated on you I’ve been through that too with a partner but I’ve also been a mistress and even though I would no longer do that I think the blame lies primarily with the person who cheated not with the person who they cheated with I hear this so many times and the mistress always get the blame I’m sorry but I didn’t force anyone to have sex with me he was the one who dropped his pants he was the one with the responsibility to his wife and his children the fact you say he lost so much weight because of the guilt well in my opinion he should have kept his dick in his trousers unless he was psychically tied up or tortured then I’m afraid that’s his fault not the other woman and all the time you are blaming her you are not blaming the real culprit I didn’t feel bad for the spouse when I did it I didn’t know her or love her I wasn’t to blame and the sooner you accept that then maybe you’ll kick him out on the street and get on with your life without him
You’re not to blame, but no woman owes you anything at all. None whatsoever ever. You believe she preyed upon your man? No, he’s fully to blame. He should have gone to you to talk to you. And sometimes it’s not even about that….maybe he didn’t need to talk maybe he was feeling lost in himself and decided for an adventure but soon realized he was riddled with guilt. Sometimes yea it’s just a skirt they are after. Because being married for so long gets boring. I can openly say that because I’m married two decades and the shit gets boring and stagnant. You’re husband is to home. The other woman/women owe you nothing at all.
Hello. I feel the same way you do. I owned my condo for six years before I got married to my husband the woman across the street was my friend. I did a lot of favors for her. We went to yoga classes together. We talked all the time seven years into my marriage, I discovered that her and my husband had been involved for five years, and I had no clue. It started in the second year of our marriage like you said, I would never do that to another woman, even if she wasn’t my friend even if I didn’t even know her, I would never do that. He started complaining to her about a boundary I was trying to hold with him and she just sucked it right up and threw herself at him, yeah I blame him. I do, but I also blame her because she should’ve not entertained that bullshit. I’ve had men come at me would never mess around with a married man. I’ve told him during fights what kind of a scumbag screws around with you when she’s friends with your wife and even while they were messing around, she still acted like she was my friend. Wow she was messing around with my husband. I wanted to kill her. I swear I did. I tried to smack her in her face so then she went and got us restraining order on me. I was going to court for two years in that time, my 25 year-old daughter died from fentanyl. My daughter had wanted to beat her ass and I wouldn’t let her not because of her, but I didn’t want my daughter to get in trouble fighting my battles and now my daughter’s been gone two years. I wish I would’ve let her beat the hell out of that bitch. Well not only was she not my friend but she’s my neighbor for years later we’re still living across the street from each other and I am triggered all the time when I see her car when I see her I am triggered all the time I’d like to beat that ass, no woman should ever do that to another woman and no husband should ever do that to your wife either
It sounds like to forgive him you had to hate her, which is fair, to each their own. You do sound very, very angry. Be careful with that, it could be corrosive.
You sound very angry!! That's septic. Get rid of the husband he will cheat again! He probably broke down and caused big drama because he got caught (for the first time).
Weird…all very hard I feel for people but still idk if men are sleeping with so many women that it’s bringing a lot of people involved there’s got to be a better solution
This podcast topic is very narrow in scope. My ex husband and I had a great sex life. But he still felt he had a right to have sex with every woman who flirted with him. So he did, even before our first anniversary.
Love can die a death in a long term relationship. When your husband is a narcissist who is hot and cold. Abusive and controlling mentally and emotionally, how would you feel? They are incapable of love and they use you. If your wife were the same, how would you feel? A man and I fell in love after suffering such partners, but we never had sex, over almost two years. His wife systematically destroyed all his friendships by telling everyone by lying that we had been having sex, after she found out we loved each other, by spying on his phone our texts. Having a mentally unstable partner who is cold and separate to you can open a door to another after 20 years of marital hell. Friendship can turn to love under the right conditions, even when divorce is not an option.
Marriage is dead. Face it. Should be a contract for 5-10 years, renewable ( after the agreed upon term, parties are asked confidentially in private if they want to renew. If only one answers "no" that person is given protection from the other spouse until they can relocate and if necessary, their location is protected.) upon mutual agreement for a certain term.
Puny
This seems dated men are also in the shadows, often married men and women have affairs, the institution of traditional marriage is dead also and above in the legal sense and as a consequence most affairs take place in the open, nobody feels ashamed anymore because of them
Don’t get married, problem solved!
I had permission to go out of the marriage. After 6mos he went and got a permanent election. Not sure they do that anymore.
I don’t think she is an expert
I think she is great expert. She knows what she is talking about.
Not quite. She is very arrogant.
I am a therapist myself and know a good therapist when I see one.
@@anitoroyan272 You do? Please tell me more.
And pray for Karen Jones she is a woman in pain and very likely alone as she ages
Of course she’s a Karen
When woman goes and looks for happy it is not acceptable. You people never talk about the pain that goes through the family. You selfish people never talk about what children go through when you fulfill your selfishness.
👏👏👏
Data shows kids are NOT ‘resilient’ and even adult children have lifelong problems due to their parents infidelity.
For example, boys often mirror their Dad and become cheaters themselves.
After seeing how devastated their Mom is -
girls often don’t trust men enough to get married in the future.
Both sons & daughters often have a huge gulf between them & their cheating parent that just can’t be bridged.
Their relationship is permanently damaged by it.
My one girlfriend stopped talking to her cheating Father and froze him out when he wanted a relationship when the Grandkids came along.
💕
Instead of sleeping with other peoples' spouses, heal your attachment style and whatever other psychological damage makes you seek out unavailable people. Problem solved.
Karen Jones does deserve the backlash…
I can see your point, since she did make choices, and could have chosen only single men.
Single men are single for a reason. Not as attractive
@@DoReMeaCulpa exactly, she chose to go for married men. It’s purposely hurting people, she could’ve gone for people in actual open relationships if she really didn’t want commitment
MMM
That’s not how you pronounce Esther
Actually, that’s how Ester pronounces her name herself.
That's how she pronounces it...
Good on the interviewer for pronouncing it the correct (French / Flemish) way. Esther is not American.