Tolkien's Steampunk Numenor
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- Опубликовано: 8 окт 2023
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Развлечения
I expect that Numenor's "missiles" were meant to be more like artillery rather than guided rockets that we call "missiles" for military use today. An arrow is also a "missile" in the slightly old fashioned sense that Tolkien was fond of using.
"Having a sound like thunder as they fly" implies a rocket to my imagination
Unguided rockets were a thing for a long time
I'm guessing those "missiles" took a heavy dose of inspiration from Germany's V-2 rockets in WWII. I know that most of Tolkein's wartime allegories relate to his experience serving in WWI, but of course he did live through WWII (and therefore the Blitz) as well. Tolkein's description of those Numenorean missiles sounds exactly like how one would experience V-2s flying overhead, and then hearing them strike a target off on the horizon.
@@Wolfeson28 the V2 was supersonic, so you'd only hear it once it has already passed (one of the most terrifying aspects of it was that you'd get no audible warning as it approaches)
That minor nitpick aside, I agree wholeheartedly about the WWII influence, including the V2 inspiration
I think he was talking about cannons
@@EnDungeoned Cannons sound like thunder.
One of the more fantasy elements of the lost tales. I would have liked to have seen it in the books. However, the idea of Middle Earth being almost post apocalyptic is still present in LOTR. Empty lands, dwindling population due to plague and warfare, numerous ruins like Moria, Osgiliath, Minas Ithil, Fornost, Amon Sul, Eregion, Dale, Amon Hen etc. The land is dominated by ruins,
Wow, never looked at Middle Earth like that! Makes sense
Tolkien viewed the ruins of Britain as reminder of an “ancient but venerable” civilization, that had become just a memory.
The Lotr world is about the things we lost. The Elves go west, the Númenorians loose their long age and majesty. Everything in the story fuels nostalgia.
Great point. The ruin of beleriand, the fall of numenor, the last alliance, then the fall of arnor were all apocalyptic setbacks to civilisation and technology. And there are many minor ones - the fading of the elves, durins bane and the dragons wiping out dwarven civilisation also ensured no one really got off the ground again. Gondor is a remnant, like a part of the Byzantine empire holding on.
I like the scene in the book where elves are giving the Fellowship the elven cloaks in Lorien. Pippin asks whether the cloaks are magic, and the elf he asks doesn't know what he means by that. Magic is not a concept native to the elven way of thinking - they see it as just a part of their ordinary abilities. So earlier when Galadriel asks Sam "did you not say you wished to see elf magic?" she may be poking fun just a little, knowing that is what hobbits call anything an elf can do but a hobbit can't. I think that is the only occasion when an elf in the Legendarium uses the word "magic."
Yeah for elves what w e all magic is simply the ultimate perfection of craft even to the spiritual level.
A song that is meant to make you at ease will literally raise your spirits and compel you to be at ease unless something opposes it because it is literally perfected in its intent.
Similarly an elven sword is not “magic” it’s a sword that is perfect(in theory) so to never dull, always cut perfectly, always remain clean, etc…
Similarly wlven healing in many cases has the power to heal spiritual wounds as well
I was immediately reminded of Clarke's Law. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
*same thoughts came to my mind as well*
there will be no treaty and NO VACCINE!!
Pratchett's Corollary also applies: "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."
@@adiuntesserande6893 I prefer Girl Genius' version: "Any sufficiently analysed magic is indistinguishable from technology."
But of course, "magic" really mostly seems to me "something we don't know how to do, but some people think it happens/ed". I mean, we use telepathy every day - transferring thoughts to other brains? All communication is about that. It's just that we use "mundane" means of telepathy - like pictures, gestures, sounds, touch... Speech and written word in particular are almost literally about evoking thoughts in others - all the way to being able to almost fully control other people, if they turn out to be susceptible to our particular techniques. But you can't consider that magic, because it's something everyone does (and that nobody disputes), right? :D
I like to draw the line between magic and technology at a certain kind of awareness. For example, it's easy to imagine there might be a technical means for travel through wormholes to other planets in a split-second; if we actually discovered a way to do that, noone would really bat an eye. But look at Stargate, and there's a decidedly magical element to the titular device - for example, when it closes. There's never a case where some member hesitates after everyone else steps through the gate and is stranded - and yet, the second the last team member goes through, the gate closes immediately. There is no real technical explanation for this (some attempts were made, but none were ever remotely consistent); it's of course primarily a dramatic device. In the same vein, how does the Stargate decide when to send some "thing" through? We have a lot of exploration of that topic in the series, but ultimately, there's some sense in which the gate considers something an object, and waits for the whole object to be in before sending it. Which is very reasonable for a portal-like device that actually doesn't directly connect the two opposing sides - but also extremely magical.
Of course, you can give an technological explanation for the magical awareness too - namely, a full-blown smart AI. But that's kind of the point - you need something thinking sort-of like a human to get real magic. Sometimes that's provided by the magic users mind (though again, it somehow happens to have an element of control that's really unrealistic; granted, in harder magic stories, keeping control of your magic is considered the hard part, and the reason most attempts to use magic don't end well :D). Most instances of magic in stories have some level of this.
I always read the "engines" the Numenoreans built as being in the medieval or earlier sense- as in siege engines and their ilk: catapults, ballistae, siege towers etc.
Exactly - From Middle English "engyn", Old French engin (“skill, cleverness, war machine”), from Latin ingenium (“innate or natural quality, nature, genius, a genius, an invention, [in Late Latin] a war-engine, battering-ram”).
That wouldn’t make a lot of sense, because they already exist in wider Middle Earth, so wouldn’t be terribly impressive.
@@ZveeboThey may not have already existed. Numenor was established about 6000 years before the Barrad Dur fell.
Except a metal ship without a sail as the Numenoreans built would require an engine in the modern sense.
@@michaelkelleypoetry. . . Unless it was some kind of galley (presumably rowed by slaves).
There's also a bit in the Hobbit suggesting that the orcs had a bit of technological advancement and probably acquired more later: "It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them."
@@user-pd3gn3ep4f "Goblin" and "orc" are interchangeable words for the same creature in Middle Earth.
@@user-pd3gn3ep4f I'm pretty sure the G-word is racist. ;)
@@7QWERTY13 I always considered the Hobbit to be from a different strain of the tradition of the tale.
Kinda like there are early modern romance novels about the arthurian legend and then there is medieval verse epics.
I always think of this quote when it comes to questions of technology in middle earth. Tolkien was deeply wary of technology, so orcs introducing more modern weapons isn't surprising.
I fell that’s more referring to siege engines, like siege towers
From what I understand of Tolkien and his writing style, I would suspect that when he says "missile" he means it in the same way one might call a sling stone or catapult load a missile. That leads me to conclude that he might mean it as a metaphor for the shells fired from large cannon, such as field artillery or naval guns of the Great War, and not rockets.
It doesn't take much more than gunpowder to make some unguided rockets, though, so one should suppose that if they had one, they had both. And if some enterprising necromancer could bind spirits into the rockets that could turn them by willpower, kind of like how they did the guardian statues at Minas Morgul, they'd have guidance too (though supply would be limited by how fast the necromancer(s) could work without endangering themselves with unbound spirits from sloppy rituals)
For me I imagined screaming rocket artillery like the Hwatcha or Katyusha.
*that was my thinking as well*
@@semi-useful5178 Or the V-2.
Plus, considering that many early fireworks were rocket-like in design, it's not that much of a leap to think of actual rockets being invented in Middle-Earth.
@@Wolfeson28
The V2 very notably screamed too.
Worth noting as well that as a philologist Tolkien was noting the etymological connection between magic and machine. English magic finds its root in the Latin magia, referring to any kind of unlawful religious practice. The Romans borrowed the word from the Greek μαγεία, who borrowed it from the Persians to refer to the practices of Zoroastrian priests (aka Magi). The Indo-European root from which the Persian word is derived gave rise in Greek to the word μεχανή, a contrivance, gear, or device, which is the source of the English words machine and mechanism. Tolkien's linking of magic/machine as religiously illicit strikes me as primarily philological, but you can see how he explores that in the treatment of the machine and magic in LoTR and the Silmarillion.
Sweet Omnissiah, guide this missile into the hearts of Your foes. Spirit of fire,. Prime this weapon,. And blast the foe
Awesome insight, thanks!!!!
@@jjthefish446 Excuse me, but have you ever heard about the Greater Good? You should really explore that idea, and you may even find out that there are ways to improve yourself and the others quality of life.
on that note, I love the quote: "Advanced enough technology is indistinguishable from magic"
Sorry, can you explain where the philological connection is? I couldn't figure out from your comment. The only thing in common seems to be that they words both come from Greek which is...not a unique connection.
I always thought by “engines” they meant siege engines.
How could the Numenoreans of old have reported that the world was round when the world was flat until the Akallabeth happened and Numenor was destroyed?
That part was changed later. The version we now know, where Arda becomes round, was a later addition.
Well Tolkien had suffered enough for a lifetime at the hands of technological advances, can't blame him for blocking it off
I remember reading a very good article about how magical worlds always seem like medieval. In that same article, the author drew a parallel with our world today. I recall how he mentioned that technology in our time is enabling the creation of increasingly powerful, elegant, and smaller devices (not all of them, but the idea behind all technology is to improve it and make it as portable as possible). And how there is a growing global concern about how we live and protect natural resources, as there is an increasing awareness of policies and practices that are more environmentally conscious and focused on keeping the planet cleaner, safer.
In the end, he concluded that perhaps the fantasy worlds we read about in books and see in movies/series are not actually the past, but the future. A future where we can create devices so powerful that they can change the environment around us, and we can return to a state where the primary concern is the environment.
Do I think this will be the future? I don't know. But I liked how it makes a certain sense and is a passionate and positive vision of our nature.
Or maybe those are visions of our world where we have failed and have lost significant portion of our knowledge and ability to keep modern society running and nature simply took significant portion of world back. Either by deliberate mismanagement of society and economy as we see today or by "natural" depopulation as we are starting to see today.
The word “factories” in the description of Numenorean settlements is very likely meant in its older way, as a trading post and warehousing area, as in the British East India and Hudson’s Bay Company era. That entire description reads like that era.
I always thought the Numenorians were supposed to be in allegory for the Atlantis that are comparably in our world.
the word factory might actually be being used in its older context as a sort of store house for trade goods you'd find in European colonies
like the Portuguese ports in africa and india
Exactly.
As with "missiles" and "engines", the entire premise of this video seems to be founded on 20th/21st century definitions of words being used by an author firmly rooted in medieval language.
It's as childishly simplistic as people who argue that, when Gandalf said "fly, you fools" he was telling them to take the Eagle Taxi Service.
@@Murdo2112 yeah i can't help but agree. that said the mentions of iron ships and flying vehicles are kind of indisputable.
@@asdfasdf-dd9lk In early drafts of The Fall of Gondolin, there's mention of artificial dragons, made of metal, that are full of orcs and balrogs (when balrogs were less significant).
But all of that, along with the flying ships etc, were abandoned and occupy the same relation to Tolkien's more developed and mature vision of his work, as the word "gnome" for the Noldor, or Tevildo, Prince of Cats in the role that would eventually go to Sauron.
None of it, ultimately, has relevance to Tolkien's ultimate vision, beyond being interesting glimpses into his development of the tales.
@@Murdo211209:00 in the video
I noice, even in the first chapter, that hobbits have [presumably] collapsible umbrellas. That's some pretty intricate mechanical technology.
If you think of their bumbershoots as merely more robust parasols, the mechanics become less impressive. =^[.]^=
Don't Hobbits also have indoor plumbing?
@@meganofsherwood3665 good question!
Yes, the technology is certainly part of Middle Earth, but it probably is not Shire-make. It probably comes from Dwarven craftsmen, and is not common. I think that umbrellas were mentioned in conjunction with the Mathom House, and was not considered practical gear. The few specimens might even have been relics of the pre-Smaug market of the Dale, an outlet of Dwarvish contrivances, which made its way abroad.
@@digitalnomad9985Actually, Lobelia Sackville-Baggins has an umbrella, and a foldable one, since it is said that she hides several things into it, when she comes to Bag End after Bilbo's party.
I'm sorry! Dreadnaughts and torpedoes to attack Valinor cracked me up! Talk about bringing a knife to a gunfight!
So glad you addressed this motif in Tolkien. Tolkien could be called a Luddite for his views on technology and his ideal world as pastoral. But it is more subtle than that. Instead he acknowledged the inevitability of technology and placed the onus on the ethics of Men. Anyway, great job as always and thanks again for another thoughful piece of work.
Hearing about these mechanical innovations also got me thinking about Sauron's possible loss of knowledge as well as power; he pushed the Numenoreans to greater heights, but he didn't replicate these devices himself after the fall.
You've hit on it with the tank parallel. It's his 1st world war trauma right on the surface. Tanks, flamethrowers, zeppelins, artillery bombardment. The bomb craters left by Grond as Morgoth crushes Fingolfin. Poisonous gas clouds over Hithlum.
The origins of those tales were written when he was convalescing. It's astonishing how he was able to sublimate such a horrific experience into something so wonderful.
The most interesting thing to me is the cognitive dissonance at play when it comes to things that relate to his war experience. He wanted to express the horror and futility of war and what power does to even the well-intentioned, but he also wanted to create a nationalist myth in which morality is uncomplicated, outsiders are pure evil, and the reader can enjoy the good guys doing violence to the bad guys with a clean conscience. His love of equating orcs with any modern people he didn't like was deeply creepy. He was both proud and ashamed of what he did. The personal stories of Frodo and Aragorn have opposite messages, but they coexist because they coexisted in Tolkien's mind.
That’s a great point, and people are complicated. However, I wanted to mention something relevant that I recently saw in an old Tolkien interview. He mentioned that just because something was in his stories, or seemed good in the stories, doesnt mean he agreed with them or supported it in the real world. The interviewer brought up the notion of hereditary monarchies which are prevalent in his works and Tolkien said he used them because they made for good stories, not because he thought that they were a superior type of government in reality. That’s just one example.
The point of Tolkien was general. To equate the craters of the Hammer of the Underworld with WWI is biographically likely but obscures the point and goal of applicability instead of analogy.
@@billvolk4236 Don't be that guy. That guy is not welcome in the Tolkien fandom. We don't analyze Tolkien like that. Have some fucking reverence. It's like shit talking the Mona Lisa because da Vinci didn't like fat girls, or whatever arbitrary hypercontemporary grievance lens of analysis you just made up 15 minutes ago. Don't bring that bullshit in this house.
@@BanjoSick Not a hint of pomposity or condescension. Well done.
My mind initially went to the aesthetic of The Last Airbender before watching this video, but now I'm wondering how Tolkien would have felt about the ideals of *Solar*Punk
I don't think he'd like Solarpunk as it is thematically incoherent, it is an aesthetic, and one that I think he would find too alien and industrial.
@@semi-useful5178 Yeah, I didn't think about the fact that SolarPunk hasn't had a big enough impact yet for people to agree on a single definition for what the term even means.
SolarPunk is what the name described. Technology that is powered by the sun, and no other source.
That is tech we are currently at the point of doing. @@LOBricksAndSecrets
@@LOBricksAndSecrets
Even steampunk doesn't make anything more than a vague aesthetic. the only one with any solid themes attached is Dieselpunk with its explorations into Authoritarianism, War, and Corruption.
Technomancy has always been at the heart of Lord of the Rings. After all what are the Rings of Power if not constructed items imbued with magic for domination and control? The main point for Tolkien is they are not “mass-produced” and his opinion is that a technology escaped from its original creators has gone too far.
I don’t think Tolkien understands (or wants to) real mass-production, where the power of industry is a reinforced concrete I-beam, making factory spaces as large as an architect can imagine.
Tolkien’s manufacture is in workshops, where everyone knows and is involved in the life and family of everyone who works with you. A world frozen in artisanal pre-industrialisation. So he’s creating a reality without industrialisation, but not without invention. This is fitting for a writer descended from clockmakers.
Cannons logically should exist in Middle Earth, that they don’t suggests its creator doesn’t want them to. You can say that the metallurgy is too primitive to make reliable barrels, but it clearly isn’t. The “bomb” at Helm’s Deep suggests they only don’t exist, because no-one in (or the God of) Middle Earth wants them to exist. As this is Tolkien, you have to assume this is from personal experience.
Interestingly, cannons were not used all that much in China (and neighbouring states) either, despite having significantly more experience and knowledge of gunpowder (not to mention time and metallurgy). The current prevailing idea seems to be that they were mostly stunted because the typical fortifications were too strong to be harmed by early cannons, so they mostly remained a quaint curiosity (gunpower-based rockets were also used to fire _over_ the fortifications). In contrast, Europe had very poor fortifications where cannons made a difference - and both developed in tandem, leading to cannons that were eventually able to harm even the Chinese-style fortifications.
Looking at Middle Earth, the same explanation works great for the absence of cannons. There just wasn't any military use for them - the fortifications we see are either wooden palisades at best... or nigh-on impenetrable ancient walls that require explosives to do any perceptible damage (needless to say, using explosive charges in cannons is a _very_ late development, for obvious reasons; and even Saruman couldn't do it, even with help from Sauron). During the times of more centralised power, they would also be unnecessary - e.g. the Roman standard siege technique was building up a ramp to go _over_ fortifications, and it was pretty much used every time you had enough people on hand (this of course wasn't available to feudal lords for a _long_ time; keeping so many people at arms in the first place and worse than that, keeping them fed, was beyond even the most powerful feudal lords).
it's interesting to contrast the LOTR anti-technological worldview with Star Trek's techno optimistic view
The real reason that the tanks and air ships weren't prominent is because when the Numenoreans first started producing them, Galadriel sensed their production, swam to Numenor from Middle Earth, and utterly destroyed each machine with a single punch. Then she went to the factories and destroyed each factory with a single punch.
So great was the number of factories and war machines, that for six days and six nights Galadriel punched without ceasing until at last she punched the great factory Durngrath, the Mother of Factories, atop Meneltarma. And just like that, Numenor's industrial revolution and its war machine were destroyed.
And then she stole their horse and rode into the sunset xD
You forgot the part where she insulted the people in charge and they immediately submitted to her will
Totally accurate. 😂
Oh ... dear.
The modern use of factory is not what Tolkien meant, he was talking about the 17th - 18th Century use of the term where the East India Company settlements in India were "factories" gathering in hand crafted goods from the hinterlands. Equally "engines" does not in any way imply steam engines because engines of war meant anything from crossbows through to battering rams, galleys, sailing ships and trebuchets.
I think you're probably right, but this is also Tolkien. It's not like he wouldn't be aware of both the antiquated and modern meanings of a word
I suspect these ideas may have influenced Robert Jordan when writing his Wheel of Time series (I'm currently on Book 11). In that series, humanity was in a post-modern utopia where technology and magic met, but after an evil god cast his influence on this world, it fell into a brutal world war that resulted in societal collapse. The aftermath was that for thousands of years, humanity effectively reentered Medievalism and Feudalism, unconsciously rejecting the 'machines' which has so very nearly destroyed them. This sounds almost exactly what we see here.
Sword of Shannara started out as a direct Tolkien rip-off and (I believe) mutated into a post-apocalyptic tale, with dwarves and elves being future evolutions of humans after the apocalypse. I tried reading the book in junior high after reading LOTR but gave it up and never looked into the rest of the series; I found the writing terrible. (It's been 45 years but I still remember the phrase "taciturn dwarf" was used over and over. And over.)
Huh, now that u concisely summarized the backstory of Wheel of Time there, I realize how similar (but not identical) my own worldbuilding is, even though I had begun it long before I read the Wheel of Time, I’m sure some of it influenced my thoughts and retrofitted themselves into my lore lol.
But then again, the idea of a fallen lost ancient super powerful civilization is a really old idea and is prevalent in fantasy, and my original inspiration came from various other places, not Wheel of Time directly. It might be mostly coincidental by the prevalence of that trope that they’re similar. The most direct similarity to my work is probably the way people reacted to magic afterwards, rejecting it and fearing it because of the destruction it wrought, without really understanding it.
@@MerkhVisionjust consider your story as another turning of the wheel
And how did that evil god came to influence the world? By having the characters looking for a new power source and (partly) releasing him :P
It's not nearly as anti-industrial as Tolkien, though; more of a warning tale against greed in general. And how futile that warning is when it only takes a couple of greedy people to ruin the whole world.
Maybe one of the best closing lines you’ve had to a video essay. Quite cheeky.
Flying ships would sure make Rings of Power a lot more interesting. Fascinating video had no idea!
"Engines" as used in the published Silmarillion does not refer to motor engines that produce power (i.e. petrol, diesel, steam), but war engines - catapults, trebuchets, ballistas, etc
What a fascinating concept
It is believed by some that Uncle Andrew sings the praises of Numenorean (Atlantean) science in 'The Magician's Nephew'.
Does he? Can u help me find where in the book that is? I love stuff like that!
@@MerkhVision When he monologues about the origin of the magic dust.
Ooh! I hadn't thought of that!
This is fascinating content. Despite what you say that technology isn't inherently bad, accordint to Tolkien, I get a didferent vibe anr message about him from the totality or the video
I see what you mean, but although it’s not clarified, I think Tolkien was specifically singling out certain types of technology, not all tech in general. Just like he showed examples of both good and bad magic, and it was mentioned in the video that the intention behind it is what counts. I’m sure Tolkien would approve of technology who’s purpose is to help, heal, and protect, and things like that. I don’t even think he was against flying machines in general, just those that were used as weapons of war.
Tolkien was deeply biased by his experience. Thats why he created world where people somehow had abundance of food without artificial fertilizers thus making their pre-industrial lifestyle significantly more pleasant than in the real world, thus removing the immediate need that the common folks would feel for a new technology. And when it comes to warfare, he saw people getting shot, or blown to pieces by artillery. He didnt see the brutality of a medieval melee with pikes, maces and axes. If he did, Im very much sure that Anduril would be a repeating rifle.
You should expand your channel to cover The Cosmere. Mistborn and Stormlight Archive are both partially built on the premise of society advancing and they're better books than ASOIAF without a doubt.
From what I understand the printing press IS in Middle Earth. Bilbo wrote an autobiography, and it’s sort of implied he published it. IDK I feel like the Hobbits are the furthest along tech wise. When you think of the Hobbits you think of the 18th century in terms of culture.
Books were very much still "published" before the printing press, it was just done by hand by a larger number of people, took longer, and therefore was more expensive.
@@Alicorn_ The way The Hobbit talked about Bilbo writing a autobiography struck me as there had to be presses in the Shire. ( the book literally calls it an autobiography) Also the Hobbits have tobacco as well as coffee.
They have running water too, don't they?
@@meganofsherwood3665 Yeah Narina seems to have the same thing going on. The Beavers, Tumnus and even the old Narnians living in caves a hundred years after the fall of their civilization in Prince Caspian are still civilized enough to have tea and crumpets!
I think Christoffer is wrong about the flying ships only appearing in the case of Numenor. Vingilot is used to slay Ancalagon the black in the first age while Numenor arises in the second age if Im not mistaken?
It sounds like he means technological flying ships specifically. Vingilot was sent by the Valar through the Door of Night, entering the heavens and empowered by a Silmaril. This is magic rather than craft, whereas the Numenorean flying ships flew via lift and thrust.
@@davidshaffer511at least, as far as we know. Wasn't there a quote somewhere about Elves not seeing a difference between "craft" and "magic"?
@@meganofsherwood3665 Sure, but Christopher Tolkien isn't an elf.
Or less glibly, Tolkien does seem to draw some kind of distinction there, as industrial capabilities are consistently associated with evil in his stories, even though doing the same sorts of things with magic isn't. The power of the Valar sank Beleriand, and this is viewed as tragic but not evil. Yet if a mechanical weapon had done that, we can be quite sure it would be orcish and eloquently reviled in the text.
Imagine if someone with Hollywood studio money actually bothered to represent Numenor, not just a generic fantasy island with giant statues.
Amazon’s representation was not very impressive
How would you present it?
@@macrosense My point exactly. This is not even in the top 10 of the problems with that show, but the only difference between Numenor and the "Southlands", as far as we could tell, were some giant statues and cleaner buildings.
@@kingofcards9516 The differences in technology and culture between the men of Middle Earth and Numenor should be obvious. Have them communicate via palantir, so they can talk to the home base even when they're off conquering Middle-Earth. Give them massive ships, enough for an occupying force. Maybe steam- or coal-powered, or at least some impressive sailing vessels. Show us a printing press, maybe, aqueducts and indoor plumbing. Go into a Numenorean hospital and show off the fantastic healing herbs they've discovered, far better that what they'll have in Gondor in the distant future. We shouldn't have to be TOLD that Numenor is humanity at its peak, we should see it in every scene. Give the royals some mithril jewelry, since mithril was available on the island. Show off some classic architecture with a distinct half-elven/half-human style, especially in Andunie, and then the technologically advanced but awful-looking towers of the future. And when it's time to build up your characters, show how under all of that, they're terrified of death and willing to buy whatever snake oil might prolong their lives a little. Show off their arrogance when they hunt down other humans and steal their stuff. Give us the Meneltarma, overgrown with weeds while Sauron goes all out with his temple of evil. Show us that this is a blessed race running heedless to its own destruction.
@@kingofcards9516 I would have had Guyladriel in an Bumble-bee-exo-suit going to Angband and take out Glaurung
At 2:40, I believe that Tolkien is using "factory" here in the archaic usage, meaning: "an establishment for factors and merchants carrying on business in a foreign country," as was done especially by the English and French when establishing fur trading outposts in North America; see for instance Moose Factory in Canada on James Bay.
Also the Portuguese Trading Empire made use of ‘fattoria’ - fortified warehouses with ports for trade and naval shipping.
Given that it's Tolkien the philologist, I could see it meaning either, or a bit of both
Wow that Tolkien letter than introduces the Silmarilion is seeming more and more prophetic. It’s like wise people can see the trends in the world and where they will lead.
This is only somewhat apropos but it is worth mentioning. The criticism that the technology of fantasy worlds does not seem to advance past the medieval is, perhaps, a simple misunderstanding of how long the period we call medieval actually was. By all accounts, European archaeologists/historians tend to consider the 6th century CE (500 CE onward) to be the start of the very early medieval period in Europe & for many the end comes with the death of Queen Elizabeth I in 1603. That's a period of over 1100 years & technology in that period did not exactly explode in complexity. If we expand our horizons back even further into the early iron age & back to the bronze age, we can see the sword was pretty much the pinnacle of personal weaponry for something like 4500 years. So maybe it's not so strange that Westeros & Middle Earth don't have guns or steam engines.
Plus the "fantasy" genre is pretty much defined as medieval + magic setting. The genre didn't even exist when Tolkien created lotr - as I cover in one of my videos in his review of the fellowship of the ring poet WH Auden placed it in the "heroic quest" genre
I feel like there's less incentive to make technology slightly better (to get an edge over your adversaries) when you have powerful magical systems that outclass everything else.
@@mastafull this is absolutely one of the main reasons for technological stagnation in fantasy settings but my point stands. In real life technology has historically advanced at a very slow pace. Our perspective is somewhat skewed as we live in a post-industrial revolution world but the IR was a complete anomaly in the history of human advancement.
@@WriteLikeALegend I would put "The Odyssey" in the fantasy genre & that was written like 5000 years ago !! Tolkien created "Medieval Fantasy" as a sub-genre of fantasy and that alone should pretty much end the discussion as to why his world is very medieval :D
@@pieceofgosa I kind of agree (especially your end conclusion, fantasy all looks like that because that's how it's defined to begin with), but being a little pedantic the difference is that the ancient Greeks viewed the Iliad and the odyssey (and Perseus and Theseus etc) as history, religion, or at least mythology. The same goes for Arthurian myth and western religious epics like paradise lost and Faust, and the Latin stories of Virgil, Dante, etc. Tolkien was really the first notable example of an epic or heroic quest set exclusively in an explicit fantasy world (there had been some portal fantasy type books, Alice's adventures in Wonderland, Peter Pan).
Something that I thought would have been worth noting for the sake of balance is that Tolkien was likely not using "Engine" in the modern context that we tend to assume it means; a device that creats movement or energy, but as a purely mechanical device to perform work of some kind. More specifically, I think his interpretation of "Engine" in the context of Middle Earth was inextricably tied to his views on machinery and industry as a whole, as a weapon of war; Grond and other large battering rams, siege towers, catapults, twould likely be what Tolkein was imagining when he wrote down "engines".
yet another wonderful and informative video. You're fantastic! Keep up the amazing work!
Love your choice of topics for their depth. Keep up the great stuff!
Brilliant as ever Robert
I so loved this! When I read the Histories, I took that in, and then moved on to the interpersonal interactions and the spiritual issues (that is where my mind goes and my personal interests lie). But as a trained scientist, I always assumed Feanor over his millennia had cracked nuclear energy and worked on subatomic particles and even quantum physics, which would have laid the basis for the palantiri, the lamps, even the Silmarils. And it was obvious that Melkor was a technological expert (if you filtered the writings through untrained Middle Age cultural understanding). I hadn’t given a whole lot of thought to Numenor, but it seemed obvious that they had advanced technology. Thank you, Robert, for another incredibly thoughtful presentation.
Being familiar only with The Hobbit, LOTR and the books not (explicity) set in middle earth - Smith of Wootton Major, Farmer Giles of Ham, etc.) I found this very interesting and revealing. It makes explicit what is implied in the works that I do know - that labour has its own value, and to use technology (whether magical or metallurgical) as a 'shortcut' is destructive of the user because it is against the 'natural' (or god-given) order.
Tolkien was almost certainly using the archaic definition of a factory:A trading establishment, especially set up by merchants working in a foreign country.
Exactly what I was thinking!
Thank you!
Yes, JRRT knew that machines could be used for good or evil and that it depended on what was in the heart of the designer, the builder and the end user. He also recognized that it was the desire for power, money and control that drove the manufacture of war machines. Sadly, that is still true even now.
I think some slight steampunk elements would've worked very very well in Middle Earth! Especially with Dwarves and Orcs. With flying ships I think every battle would've looked totally different but some certain tools, weaponry and architecture would've worked. I mean imagine the Rohirrim riding through the Mark and two riders and catch a horde of Orcs with a flexible metal rod... 😂
Steampunk Numenor would certainly explain how they forced Sauron to kneel without even a fight.
I think much of the imagery of what the monsters could do in Middle Earth was derived from Tolkien's traumatic experiences at the Battle of the Somme. I have known for a long time that Tolkien had many misgivings about industrialization and its reckless damage to both people and the ecosystems of the earth. I share his misgivings.
Yes, but it was also an inherent bias, because he lived through the misery of industrial warfare, but have never seen the misery of pre-industrial warfare. He spoke through the mouth of his character Faramir, and described the ancient weapons like swords and bows as something not to be admired, but also as something usable, especially for defense. A more modern equipment should also fall into that category, as both can be used, and both can be misused. But he didnt see the world where people bash one another with maces (even though that happened a few times even in WW1), he only saw the world where people shot at each other with rifles and cannons. So he developed a bias that from both a historical standpoint and from a moral standpoint is difficult to argue for.
This is one of the things about power in LOTR that I always felt was compelling. In Tolkien's soft magic world, the source of the power was mysterious, be it magic or machine. Some might say the distinction is irrelevant, but I would say that it is "not for us to know". The great wisdom of the ancient might understand it, but it was so advanced that nobody else in the stories would, and that gave it incredible, sacred, dangerous impact. The movies actually summed up this feeling quite well in the scene where Wormtongue brings fire a little too close to Saruman's black powder bomb, even if it was a little on the nose.
What fascinating insights into the worlds of Tolkien! Countless thanks for sharing with us all! 👍👍 10⭐
I'm an illustrator who's devoted quite a bit of time to what the engines of flame, in great serpents, who upon breaching gondolins gates, emptied orcs from them. I've sketched many tanks/troop carriers blended with a dragon/serpent form. I always figured the ambiguity around them lent itself to at least a comparable impression one might get oh, say, on the battlefields of ww1 seeing a tank for the first time. It walks the line of machine, organic, and/or magic and I love how open to interpretation they are!
It also gives me a way out of a more impractical design.😉
Alas for the fall of Gondolin.
I've been waiting for one of the RUclips Tokienists to do this episode, for years. Brilliant! Two thumbs up! Without this information about industrialization, mechanization, and blind technological overindulgence, most people don't think any farther than Saruman cutting down trees, and Ted Sandyman's mill becoming -- evidently -- steam powered. Professor Tolkien's universe is magic and pixie dust without the knowledge that it contains machinery, too -- but machinery isn't the star of the Lord of the Rings ... not even the clear elements of advanced technology like wizard staffs or Palantiri or Rings of Power, for that matter. The Professor's mythology for the British people was personal, agenda-driven, and highly moral. In the Lord of the Rings, we get such a tiny sliver of all that Professor Tolkien believed and wanted to say. You have just outed some -- in my opinion -- critical elements that help not only deconstruct his complex philosophy, but also his religious views and beliefs, with which far too many modern enthusiasts do not want to be bothered. I'm glad we didn't really have a steampunk Lord of the Rings (who needs Orcs with AK-47's), but the dual-edged swords of progress and invention are a couple of the most foundation themes underpinning all of Professor Tolkien's mythology. I am so glad you hauled them out for everyone to see and ponder. Well done! I salute your scholarship! 👍👍
Earindel's ship comes to mind when i think of this concept. Someone once said " to the uneducated ( or un enlightened) science is indistinguishable from magic"
Of course there’s also the smoke belching factory which replaced the mill in The Scouring of the Shire.
I had not thought of the opening question before, thanks.
So Tolkien read Jules Verne.
Speaking of which I would be very interested in seeing a middle earth style telling of 20,000 leagues under the sea
Ty for all theses videos Robert. I love your voice. It’s very soothing. Love your content, too. Take care 🤗
Fascinating stuff! Thanks for sharing your research.
To the faithful 'In Deep Geekians'; I am not new to LOTR, but am to the books - I have just finished all of tolkein's work and asking for suggestions on other similar novels... though one accepts that such a matter class in writing can never be replicated
The Wheel of Time novels would probably be a popular and good recommendation! Just a heads up, the beginning of the first book intentionally is very similar to the beginning of the Fellowship of the Ring, but it soon after diverges into more original territory as the author brings in more of his own ideas instead of continuing to follow the tropes.
I'd suggest Ursula K. LeGuin's 'Earthsea' books. There's the original trilogy from the early 1970s, 'A Wizard of Earthsea', 'The Tombs of Atuan', and 'The Farthest Shore' which is the story of the magician Ged. Many years later she wrote two further novels 'Tehanu', and its sequel 'The Other Wind', and 'Tales from Earthsea' a short story collection. These are well worth reading, and after Middle Earth, the world of Earthsea is one of the best imaginary worlds.
Then there's Robert Holdstock's 'Ryhope Wood' series 'Mythago Wood', 'Lavondyss', 'The Bone Forest', 'The Hollowing', 'Merlin's Wood', 'Gate of Ivory', and 'Avilion'. The series is set in a magical forest, which like Doctor Who's Tardis is much much bigger on the inside and people who enter it sometimes never return. It appears on a map to only be three square miles in size but as you travel into the wood you travel back into Britain's mythic past, and it's inhabited by beings drawn from that mythic past. The series is well worth checking out, though it's a cycle rather than a series.
For a simple standalone novel, check out Lud-in-the-Mist by Hope Mirrlees
What I like about both series is that they are great fantasy series, but not trying to be like Tolkien in the slightest. Tolkien created the greatest fantasy series there has been, but subsequent writers in the genre often just try to copy him - with IMHO very mixed results.
Many fantasy civilisations dont see the need for such developement. Magic fulfills the role of technology there. Why use steam engines when you have griffins flying around, and portals at the mages academy provide long distance travel for the affluent? In the healing arts the advances of the chirurgeons science take second place to healing priests who do it far more efficiently as per the power of their gods. Regrown limbs, no problem, donate a large swath of forest to your friendly druids! Only the villains need tech. So shown in Tolkiens work. Saruman as a captain of industry as well as a leading wizard, he knows what he is doing. Far more advanced than Sauron, if you ask me. That one relies too much on brute force, to satisfy his need for domination!
Everything Saruman did was in IMITATION of Sauron (Sauron did it first - well, Morgoth did it first, but Sauron did it before Saruman). Tolkien states that Isengard and Saruman's forces were just a child's copy, a plaything, compared to Sauron.
Bag End would have been none the worse for being on the end of a branch off the main line from Bree to Hobbiton. The Shire was definitely Great Western territory; one could easily visualise an auto train with a 1400 class simmering in the sun at the simple little terminus at Bag End.
The main line would have seen small older types such as the double framed 4-4-0s, Dean goods 0-6-0s and 4300 class.
Aragorn to Eomer "They would be small. Only Railway Children to your eyes".
@@genlob 15 inch gauge? Like the Romney Hythe and Dymchurch Railway.
@@physiocrat7143 small trains for small guys. But if they stole some Gandalf´s rockets and made a few muskets, it would have been a great equalizing force against Saruman.
World of Warcraft did this with goblins and gnomes
I never played WoW but I greatly enjoyed Warcraft 3 and it's "the Frozen Throne" expansion. Some really terrific rts gameplay imo
A lot of people think metal-clad ships are relatively modern (1860s onward). But Frigates in the 18th Century had copper cladding on the bottom. The US built a few for the Barbary Pirates in an effort to keep them molif. I imagine Numenorean Drommonds could have had such metal cladding.
That makes a lot more sense
In the art credits, you missed the illustration on the left at 8:13, which is from the original edition of Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea. It depicts Captain Nemo showing Professor Arronax the engine room of the Nautilus.
So Spelljamming is in the histories of Lord of the Rings, excellent. I have always had some difficulty talking other D&D players in to Spelljamming because of the lack of imagination with Fantasy settings but also being part of a crew is not the same as being part of an adventuring group in most players minds. We all resist authority even in our role playing. Star Trek type thing is also not what D&D players run to because of the lack of free decision making. I hope One Piece helps change peoples minds on this. It just takes some creative problem solving to deal with travel to and from a ship in space and the fantasy world planet. Plus it makes these strange fantasy planets feel more a part of something far greater. Pirates seemed to enjoy the freedoms a pirate ship provided so it can interest players too. What your saying can be applied to this D&D issue as well. Spelljamming is a fantasy setting. Like I always thought The Black Hole movie is a dungeon in space complete with undead. 😆
So, when Tolkien says "missile" here, I can 100% guarantee that he didnt mean it in the modern sense of "a guided rocket with an explosive payload", simply because not only did that definition of the word not exist yet, but the device it referred to hadnt been invented yet.
If we're talking about Tolkien's early-ish drafts that would have been written in the 20s through to the 40s, and only at the very end of that period were weapons that we would recognize as "missiles" in the modern sense brought into service. And even then they weren't called that yet; they called them "rockets" or "flying bombs". The term missile as we understand it today wouldnt really emerge until after World War 2. Prior to that the word was basically just a synonym for "projectile", referring to arrows, spears, cannonballs, bullets, etc.
Thanks!
I really enjoyed this! Awesome job In Deep Geek! Really made me think! I enjoyed that.
After Preston Jacobs' "Is A Song of Ice and Fire post-apocalyptic sci-fi?", we now get In Deep Geek's "Is Lord of the Rings post-apocalyptic sci-fi?", and I'm _so_ here for it. 😁
I believe bilbo during the Hobbit mentions a smell of gunpowder after Gandalf blows up some goblins in goblin town. I believe he also compares a sound he here's to a pop gun, which is of course a toy gun. There is also a reference to a clock at one point. For him to reference all these things it would imply that they exist and are common enough for Bilbo to be familiar with them.
9:14 Holy Moly!! I had no idea J--Mann from Mushroomhead was a Darklord. That artwork could be right from their 2014 look. Seriously, right down to the detail on the helmet and facial 🤔.
Middle earth is not set in the modern world. That’s how I like it
Goddamnit I watched this in bed alone at night and now I've become temporarily afraid of the dark 😅
This video was very interesting. I haven’t made it all the way through the Silmarillion yet but I cherry picked sections about Numenor before Rings of Power aired just to get familiar with the setting & people, & I never absorbed the info that Numenor had powered ships & flying machines. Sometimes I can read a passage & it just doesn’t enter my mind adequately to realize just what it says. Your vudeo made the references much clearer & I love the idea of Steampunk engines! Thanks.
I'll add that some technology was painted positivly, after all hobbits did have mills and forges, the difference is that those where used for agriculture, make tools and grind wheat. The hobbits didn't go further because that was enougth. Adding Gandlaf's fireworks, we can say that technology in arda is good so long as it's purpose is tocreate or bring joy. The hobbit and annexes also refer the dwarves developping crafting skills in the ways of architecture and making the likes of aqueducs.
Tolkein was touching on ancient advancement and regression in our world. Look at rome 2000 years ago, how far they got and then in the near blink of an eye they collapsed and human society regressed centuries, technology was lost and progress didn't resume for 1000 years. So saying that at one point the mumenorians were this advanced and then basically over night it all vanished and was swallowed by the sea and time, shows how the age we live in now could just as easily vanish beneath the dust and dirt of the earth and be forgotten to future men.
Well, there goes my peaceful sleep for the foreseeable future, lol
That’s crazy! Wow, I never knew he had put this in the lore
I weren't be surprised for automatons or 4 wheels moving machines
I think the key is Tolkien’s absolute mastery of the English language and his ability to reach back to earlier and even archaic definitions. Factory… an establishment for traders conducting business in a foreign country. Likewise the earlier comments about engines.
Tolkien always shows and rarely tells. Something ever more difficult to find.
That’s a great point!
Wheel of Time is not stuck in a Medival Era 🤷♀️?
I didn't read 'engines' as being 'engines' in the modern sense, until I heard of the notion JRR had and abandoned of a Numenor with airships, and that the Orcs and dark powers built things like tanks ( there's abandoned versions of LOTR that mention the Orcs having tank-like machines ), since when I have wondered. The abandoned description of the Numenorean airships - that they were actually aiming for something more than airships - almost sounds like they were trying to have a sort of space program. I'll admit, I like the idea that Numenor was more technologically advanced, it's an interesting take.
Would or have you ever considered making videos about Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere? I very much enjoy your videos and would love to see how you'd explore his worlds.
Thank You for putting these elements in perspective. As much as I love the films and the work of Christopher Tolkien to publish more of his father's work, I fear that in some ways one small flaw that came with both efforts was an overemphasis or revisionism about these elements and a more anti-any-tech/industry vibe that may slightly more betray where Christopher was as opposed to JRR himself, who made his points but never belaboured or obsessed-on this one.
To me, Numenor was always analogous to the British Empire. Blessed by the Powers and splendidly isolated, but that wasn't good enough. The Numenoreans were driven to conquer and colonize. All of which led to disaster for Numenor, just as it did for England, though JRRT didn't live long enough to see the full horror of it. Tolkien never considered himself 'British'. One can wonder if JRRT blamed his father's death upon the existence of the Empire.
There's a throughline in Tolkien's work of treating what we call magic as basically deep knowledge and understanding of something, and the ability to manipulate it. In Tolkien's world, an elven smith can become so good at smithing that they can imbue a ring with the power of fire, or an elven weaver can become so good at weaving that they can make a cloak that makes someone invisible. When Frodo and the others meet Galadriel, iirc, she comments on how the hobbits and the Men call both what the elves do and what Sauron does "magic" but she regards them as completely different things. I think that's meant to imply that there's different approaches of manipulating the world, some exploitative, and some not. In other words, to Tolkien, both technology and magic are form of "craft" which are so advanced they can't be understood by the layman, and can achieve things which seem miraculous. Whether they conform to what we in the real world see as technological and scientific is sort of besides the point, as also highlighted in the video.
This brought to mind the chapter The Scouring of the Shire at the end of The Return of the King. Saruman and his Men have 'industrialized' the Shire, making it a reflection of Barad-dur and Isengard. Merry, Pippen, and the gang wage war to take back control, and then the Hobbits cleanse the Shire of those works.
And now that brings to mind the future Ages of Middle-Earth, that connect into our present day (saw that in a video from somewhere). How far was it into the future of Middle-Earth before the achievements and skills of Numenor were seen again?
Brilliant stuff
Factories in this context refers to trade outposts of the colonial expansion of europe. If you read a history book, you can see that for example, the trade outposts the portugese established in india were called factories. Engines refers to engines of war, like siege towers, catapults and so on.
There were of course also Melko's tank-like, mechanical dragons in the Lost Tales.
Though they (at least in part) were perhaps more like armoured troop carriers, being filled with orc warriors.
Hah, should have waited a few more moments, lol.
Ha, it only just now occurs to me that Gandalf had the ability to make explosive rockets.
The word missile has been used for a while to refer to spear/javelins, they could also be kind of like Roman candles
Even in our own world, the eras of swords and bows only lasted until the 15th century, if not earlier.
Indians were some of the first (and best) at manufacturing muskets, and once Europeans got their hands on gunpowder, swords and spears wouldn't be practical for much longer.
While gunpowder weapons got increasingly more important in warfare ever since they were introduced, they certainly didn't immediately render swords and other close combat weapons useless.
Cavalry still used swords and spears effectively up until the 20th century. Even in europe, but to a greater extent on other continents.
dude its called the era of PIKE and shot, thats a spear
@Aalienik My point is the innovation of gunpowder meant the inevitable end of warfare as it had been for thousands of years prior.
There's no way it wouldn't have leaked to other cultures and been further developed in all that time.
@zachofthebattery2864 obviously you need to deal with the enemy when they've closed the distance, but a bullet at close range is just as (if not more) deadly as one from yards away.
Yes, Hussites for example used howitzers and early hand-held muzzle-loaders, and even mobile artillery (cannons operating from horse-drawn wagons) back in the age of the 100 year war. That is some 600 years ago. And those were mostly peasants. Imagine what a dedicated nation might have done using their strategy.
Everything that we think we made for the common man to survive is actually a product of war. Take super glue for example It was not made for the sole fact of keeping things together tight and strong but also was for in the military and they needed something to be strong enough to be used on the moment's notice. It was also used them to seal wounds in the minutes of battle without any supplies.
It actually sounds like he wrote that they tried to create spaceships, but had to be content with mere airships.
Also it sounds like his beef wasn't really with the Machine itself, but rather that it lets a user take shortcuts. If you spend your entire life learning to create a sword that is just a little better than the swords that exists in your contemporary world, that is OK, but if you create a machine that makes perfect swords by the dozens, that is bad because it robs others of the toil necessary to become masters and enables the user to rapidly arm his side to dominate others (and of course if you can do that and you've already taken shortcuts to get there, why wouldn't you?)
Dang that was an amazing video!
I read that passage in "The Fall of Gondolin" just this morning!
I've read enough Cyberpunk to know, swords are incredibly practical. Even and especially in high-tech environments.
To quote Sean Connery in The Hunt for Red October: "There are things in there that don't react well to bullets."
Besides, you used a picture of a wheelbarrow. I worked on farms and construction sites. Both with their own advanced industrial technology. Guess what they both still use?