Tolkien's Elves | Types of elves explained
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- Опубликовано: 25 июн 2023
- In Deep Geek - Insight and intelligent discussion on Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, The Witcher and more.
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Развлечения
"They're just elves. They don't die. How complicated can that be?"
Tolkien: *Yes.*
Every time I see something really complicated and difficult to understand, I label it "Tolkien 's classification of Elves"
😂 nice
Well thats rubbish
This comment and the 2 responses encapsulates the whole internet
For myself I just think that it is related to Dune, because the lore of Dune is the most confusing thing I have personally delved into.
I think Ulmo would have found herding the cats of Queen Berúthiel easier than guiding all those bloody elves to Valinor.
It really must have been frustrating. Given the clues all through the books about how the Elves perceive time, the fact that even by their standards it took a long time to migrate tells us a lot. Reading the passage in the books you might get an idea that it took somewhere from a few months to a few years, but I can't help but think poor Ulmo* sat for centuries on that peninsula waiting for the stragglers to catch up.
*Edit: Whoops, I meant Oromë
Herding cats is actually very easy, I do it with mine and a can of their favorite food!
Someone should do a parody of Tolkien's works with cats instead of elves. The "Feli?"
@@stcredzeroTolkien going to haunt the one who is doing it 🤣
He’s not so fond of Cats
🤣 true
I'm glad these essays have started discussing things a little from the angle of _"why did Tolkien choose to write it that way?"_ rather than limiting itself purely to in-world lore. The note about ethnicity always mixing together with different layers ending up too merged to distinguish is particularly on the nose. Identity is never simply inherited from one's parents: nations, ethnicities, and other socio-political groups are continuously created, recycled, and discarded. Most fiction authors want to keep things simple (to make life easier both for themselves and the reader), but Tolkien indulged in creating a network of identities full of depth - only to make it irrelevant compared to people's actions.
I can understand that to a degree, but I also think going into why besides the broad thematic can get into pigeonholed analogies.
Anyways, I usually agree with In Deep Geeks points, but this one im not so sure on. in My reading of the silmarillion, legacy, lineage, and groups is exceedingly important, and is never just “thrown away” or become irrelivent in the face of peoples actions. their actions are informed and are intemently a product of where they came from. How they acted upon it is character dependent, but it is not something disregarded. It is added too, surely, but being a son of Feanor is extremely important. so too is being a noldor or a sindar, or from the house of Thingol or Beorn. These are important things that form a greater whole on top of other important things.
@@midshipman8654 "intemently"? It's a lovely word, but what does it mean?
Elf genealogy summary: It's complicated.
SO complicated, though...
The Valar's great sin was inviting the elves west, breaking what should have been an older sibling relationship with Men and sundering them from Middle Earth which was supposed to be their natural home
Ulmo would certainly agree with that.
they had to save the Elves from possible extinction as Melkor literally wanted to destroy the world. The worst side effect is that the Valar were absent when Men awoke, with no Orome able to guide Men west as well. The remaining Elves also looked askance at Men, so their first meetings were probably not friendly.
Melkor poisoned Middle Earth, so the Elves could only truly live in Valinor, which is what the world of Middle Earth would be like if Morgoth hadn't appeared.
I would say mistake, not sin. There was never any intent to harm the elves. And Manwe was in constant communication with Eru.
There was no sin, it was all part of the Song.
@@user-wr5hs4sx7j so was melkor's discord, and feanor+noldor rebellion. that's a copout unless you're absolving them of sin, and any other acts of evil, because it was 'part of the song'
Technically the notion of Light Elves and Dark Elves predates Tolkien. Norse mythology had Light Elves (Ljósálfar) and Dark Elves (Dökkálfar), as well as Black Elves (Svartálfar, though there's some debate about whether this was a distinct type of elf, another name for Dökkálfar, or just a synonym for the dwarfs). Tolkien was aware of these traditions and created a backstory to explain the distinction between Light and Dark Elves in his legendarium. So while the modern High Elves and Dark Elves of D&D and other fantasy universes owe a lot to Tolkien, the idea of light and dark sub-groups of elves has been around for a long time.
Amazing how much later fiction has borrowed from this lore
TLOTR is the Magna Carta of modern fantasy, in the same way Dune is for Sci Fi.
@@Unpainted_Huffhines I have to disagree about Dune and Sci Fi. Isaac Asimov and Arthur C. Clarke are far more influential.
I'm certainly not trying to put down Frank Herbert, but his work is not as foundational (pun intended) as Tolkien's or the other two I mentioned.
@@Falcrist True enough. I didnt even consider Asimov, my error.
@@Unpainted_Huffhines Oh yeah - Didn't Asimov introduce the idea of a galactic empire, ecumenopolis, and hyper drive in like 1940?
@@sulljoh1
Invented the term Robot
“Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.
No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.”
- Terry Pratchett, Lords and Ladies
This is amazing. Tougher to follow than the people and history of the Balkans, but still great. Thanks.
Love this Avari lore! They deserve more attention 🌟✨
Land under stars
Cuiviénen
Awake the elves
Quendi
Avari
Nurwëlië
Refuse a truce from godly moose
"Oromë", is it?
Nonsense
Mor-over
No'va
In jest of future sight
Yonder woe as glee
A blight reprieve aggrieves
Tisk
This ... dark lord?
No, never met
Wisp ... lord of nothing
Folly mystech
Yet
Maybe, heed need not
Though a foe may chance within
Be further ill, those on return
Stay a'way'k
Hear by the lake
On blades of grass
Yawn dreams to nap
H'our numbers count
By star-zen charm
A flicker mischief
Music instrument
-*-
How be travels?
Savior
Savage
Thought the wind could carry you
Froth the whim
Soothe weary view
Best set adrift a whistle kiss
As sure azure
How 'bout new shoes?
Learned and planted
Damned be damp id
Dry again and dancin'
Met a spiral, "hell, oh"?
Balance, bonk
Revampéd
Worth
What is it?
Full's wr'etch
Hue'n more yule fool
Ghostial guest
Ire gains
Time fecks derange
Space fades to wait
Err eager play
Trip, drip, flip, slip
Shift, sift, quip, dip
Miss, bliss, diss
List: Never
"Nephyr"?
Aye
Half-blind
Swim sky
Be'sigh'd
Nîr nyérë
You made a very good point on highlighting that in the third age all the different kinds of elves came together after been separated. But there is still an element to this where the old differences still exists. Its always the ''higher elven groups'' who are the leaders over the ''lesser races'' like Nandor. When Oropher goes to Mirkwood with a group of Sindar, they make him king instead of someone among those who lived there for generations. The same case is with Amdir and later Celeborn and Galadriel in Lorinand. When a Sindar or Noldor arrives to a group of ''lesser elves'' they become automatically their leader. Even in the second and third age, there is still some kind of ruling class among elves.
It makes you wonder just what sorts of activities may have gone into establishing these ruling classes that don't make it to the histories. Noldor imperialism may be white-washed into "oh, these guys just up and made us kings, nothing to see here...."
yes, i think he went a bit far into the greys and fluxes of the peoples, which is true to a degree, but the legacies of their distinct natures actions and histories is also an important not to dismiss either.
if anything, i think a quote on Aragorn might encapsulate a greater thematic tone “you are Isildur’s Heir, not isildur himself”
it vindicates the importance of legacy, one is not separated from their origin, you are its progression, its heir, its apotheosis, but you are not it in a static form. Aragorn does take up Isildurs mantle as king, he does not shirk it, but he let go of the ring and frodo in a way isildur did not. Likeswise the Noldor ARE wise and powerful, and this can lead to both great folly like the Sons of Feanor, but also great acts like Galadriel. Them being of the noldor is fundemental to their being.
Most nandor and avari aren't organized, they're likely hunter gatherers living in caves or forests likely having no more organization than small clans, sindar and noldor have higher and more complex organizations
General characteristics of the Quendi: Tall, beautiful faces and body (Tolkien often uses the word lithe combined with the physical build of the character, be It strong or leaner, to indicate an elegante/shapely form and of graceful movement). Fair skin, often very pale and occasionally rudy complexion for those with red hair. Maidros is a good example of everything described here as he was very tall, strong, shapely/elegant in form and movement, very beautiful, red-brown-haired, fair skin but possibly with a rudy complexion.
The Avari: Proto Eldar Noldor, Vanyar and Teleri, the oldest of elves belong to this clan. The name means "the refusers" but they call themselves the originals. Less skilled in all things than the other clans because of their lack of contact with the Ainur or Exiles or Sindar.
The Eldar: Strongest, most adventurer and valiant elves that decided to make the Great Journey. Also tallest for their woman were 'seldom less' than 6 feet tall and their men 'no less' than 6 foot 6. The male average is elsewhere described as about 7 feet, which meakes sense considering their shortest. Also generally younger members at the time of the Journey. About 2/3 of the elven people at the time. Hadoreans and specially the Númenóreans were said to be hardly distinguishable from the Eldar until their youth lasted. The Eldar generally considered long hair very beautiful.
The Eldar clans:
1. Teleri or Lindar: Generaly dark-haired, but not black as some of the Noldor clan. There are also those with fair hair, varying from very light blonde to white and silver-grey, these were generally related to Thingol's bloodline. They are said to be *'somewhat' less in stature and in build than the Noldor, but Tolkien used 'somewhat' heavily indicating Celeborn (called 'silver-tall' among his people) would not be considered tall among the Noldor, thus a noticible difference though not great, for they were in fact very similar to the Noldor in general, hardly distinguishable, specially those of Valinor who also had brighter eyes. They were, however, still described as 'strong' by Tolkien, indicating, in average, a stronger body than most clans of men. Their eye colour ranged from dark to grey to even blue (regarding those fair-haired).
* somewhat was used to height differences up to 6 inches (Gimli somewhat taller than the hobbits). Even the 'petty-dwarves' were said to be 'somewhat' smaller than their kin despite their name. Just a bit of context, but is up for interpretation, even though is certainly a substantial/noticeable difference.
1.1. Lindar of Valinor: Exactly as was described above. They mastered the art of singing, they were also great ship builders and sailors. Brighter eyes than the other Teleri clans.
1.2. Sindar or Grey-elves: As was described in Teleri, but with less bright eyes, which was the chief distinction between them and the exiles. Their knowledge on forests (living and for military purpouses) was also among the greatest in history. Also great sailors and shipwrights in the case of the elves of the Falas and Balar. Greatest voices of the Eldar.
1.3. Nandor: Same characteristics, but they were afraid of the misty mountains at some point, indicating less courage and generally less strength.
1.3.1. Green elves: Eventually arrived in Beleriand through the Misty and Blue mountains. Vegetarian for the most part, take that as you wish regarding potential physical characteristics.
1.3.2. Silvan Elves: Not accounted among the Eldar according to the lore in LOTR. Also said to be hardly distinguishable to the Avari, in fact some Avari clans mixed with them through out millenia, thus probably a lack of stature and strength when compared to other Eldar clans as well as more *variable hair colour.
*See 'The Avari' above and the other Eldar big clans hair characteristics.
2. Noldor: Described as physically strong and very tall (about 7 feet). The tallest and strongest of the Elven folk, also 'the mightiest of the children of the world'. The best overall smithcrafts of the world as well as the greatest loremasters, specially regarding linguistics. Their hair colour was in general very dark-brown or black, but red-brown, *golden and even silver (Míriel) was possible but very rare. Very bright eyes, generally grey and also in different "shades" of It like blue-grey, but also dark. High level of curiosity and want for knowledge when in comparison with the other clans. That natural ambition, high courage along with their great overall abilities and accomplishments makes them very prideful in general, the consequences of that can be very negative such as arrogance and supremacy (Feanor and some of his children).
*Marriages between the clans were rare in Valinor except for the royal and noble houses, the Golden hair appears because of Vanyarin individuals marrying into the clan.
2.1. The Exiled Noldor: Many of them and their descendants intermarried with the Sindar during their years on ME. Thus some (future generations) were not so tall and spiritually enhanced as those original exiles. They also suffered a cultural "sindarization" that could be observed specially towards the language, but Quenya remained as the loremasters's language for their works. The culture among the exiles and their descendants was much more militaristic due to rampant wars when compared to other clans. They became the 'guardians of ME'.
The Noldorin culture was the chief one that influenced the civilization of Númenór.
3. Vanyar: The name was given because of their golden hair, but also because they are considered the 'highest' of elves, the first ones. They were considered the *fairest of elves and the most loyal to the Valar, even lived nearer to them abandoning Tirion. As It was seen among the Noldor with Vanyar blood, they seemed to be less proud and wiser than the Noldor for the most part. They also loved music and poetry very much.
Ingwe was considered by all elves of Aman as their High-King, thus they commanded a lot of respect from the other clans.
*All Eldar were beautiful but is possible, since the loremasters are of Noldorin descent, that their love for gold and Its colour could've heavily influenced that view.
Those are the basics.
That was breathtaking--an amazing amount of research and preparation and thoughtful narration. Thank you for using your talents this way, Robert.
You would think there would be more tales of the original Avari. They must have been pretty interesting and might be still alive.
As far as I understand it, the soul of an elf is bound to the land, so that even if the physical being isn't immortal, the soul is. Therefore, every elf that have ever been around, is still there, in a manner of speaking, physical or not.
Where do you think Orc's come from?
Robert, all this artwork showing Eol while you discuss the Moriquendi-quite humorous! Thank you for that bit of brilliance!
Finally I've been asking for this information for years and nobody knows. The other channels just don't address it.
Thank you for explaining this
If you enjoyed this, consider reading the Silmarillion; i estimate that it contains about 80% of the information presented here. The rest is harder to find though and scattered around various books. Most prominent among those are the Unfinished Tales, i think.
I'd say Irish folk lore and the book of invasions had a hand in this. The Firbolg and Túatha Dé Danann were a group of people who entered, and later left, Ireland. One going south-east, and the others going north-east. The Firbolg are enslaved, but manage to escape, and make it back to Ireland first. They are scattered all round the coast, so they walk inland. Eventually all meeting up at Tara.
The Túatha Dé Danann return thirty-seven years after the Firbolg. Their king, Nuada, asks to be given half the island, but the Fir Bolg king Eochaid refuses. The two groups meet at the Pass of Balgatan, and the ensuing battle-the First Battle of Mag Tuired-lasts for four days.
Candle lit tales has a good version of the story of the Firbolg, and the First Battle of Mag Tuired. The whole thing is very tragic since they are the same people. Exiles driven out by the Fomorians. The Firbolg have a not so great king with some form of doom hanging over him, and a bit of an ego. The Túatha Dé Danann just don't seem to see why giving them half of Ireland should be an issue. After all they have as much right to it as the Firbolg, plus they have fancy magical items, and spells.
Lovely and precisely what I enjoy most about Howard's antidiluvian world of Conan as well.
This left my head spinning! Will have to watch it a dozen times more!!!!!
Trying to read that part of the Appendices that talks about the different elven branches is like trying to read stereo instructions.
😁😁😆😆😅😅🤣🤣😂😂
@@salvohatteras8327Come on, you think they even know that Tolkien wrote books?
@@rusinoe8364 I think they're doing ok considering how limited the material is.
Remember, they only have access to LOTR and The Hobbit. No Sil, no HOME, no UT, not even Fall of Numenor.
Nah. Stereo instructions are easier.
But Tolkien is Far More Entertaining on repeated readings.
@@spacemissing Indeed
Amazon would simply show the difference between the Noldor & the Teleri with the former having a faded hair cut, while the latter has probably some braids or afro
A shame really. The Teleri being natural seafarers and the Noldor being natural crafters, they could have quite easily make the two stand out with their outfits. Perhaps the Noldor carrying gems and having metal woven into their finely crafted clothting, with hair that is carefully tied and maintained as to not obstuct or hinder daily tasks, yet also reflect their mastery over the sculpting of hair. Meanwhile the Teleri would wear large blue cloaks over their white gleaming robes to keep themselfs warm. Their hair would be long a freeflowing, being generally unbothered by it and savoring the feeling of it catching sea wind.
Amazingly complex lineages! I will need to watch this video a few times to absorb it all. Well done 👏🏼
Lovely video. I always enjoy encountering Tolkins complexicity.
It's worth mentioning that Tolkein didn't invent the idea of a distinction between light and dark elves. Like many aspects of his legedarium, he was inspired by Old Norse literature. In the 13th century Prose Edda of Snorri Sturluson, we are told of two races of elves called the Ljósálfar and Dökkálfar; the former are said to dwell in the heavenly realm of Álfheimr and to be "fairer than the sun to look at" and the latter to dwell within the earth and to have a dark complexion. (Snorri also uses the term "svartálfar" or "black elves" - but he seems to associate this term with more dwarfs that elves as we normally think of them).
You missed one branch of elves: the Qrystmus elves, who are skilled craftsmen, especially known for fashioning children’s toys.
wonderful video as always - am often struck by the similarities between Tolkien's elves and the Tuatha De Danann in Irish mythology, the "fair folk" - there's also a rumour that he may have taken inspiration for Gollum from a cave in Co Clare named after a Saint Colm, Poll na gColm (pronounced "powl na gollum"), in the Burren.
WOW! JRRT did love the sound of words - evident in his writing for children - so this rumor might be true - even if not, thank you for sharing it!
Person:
So how many kinds of elves are there?
JRRT:
YES
Not Jeff here. Since elves only die from battle or serious accident, is it possible that some of the first awakened are still hanging around where Cuivienen was? (It was destroyed by Melkor in the Years of the Trees)
Yeah the clear implication is that those original Avari are probably still around, though they would have "faded" long ago and be incorporeal spirits by now
Love this topic and hoping for more like this! Thank you Robert
Glad I found this channel.
You Sir, are a True Scholar!
Tolkiens Elves are definitly prettier than Skyrim elves.
So elves are Slavs in a sense if you do enough mental gymnastics (since Sloven/Slovyan means “worded one”/speaker as opposed to foreigners with their incomprehensible languages who might as well be mute as far as the early Slavs were concerned).
This is great, thanks for posting.
I loved this video! Thanks for sharing!
I've recently discovered this channel and love your explanations like how Sauron didn't know the Shire or how Gandalf didn't recognize the One Ring. One point that struck me after the travels of Gandalf video was why didn't Gandalf run into Beorn before the events of The Hobbit?
Hi. Can u tell me in which video he treats the explanation of why Gabdalf did not recognize the one ring please?
I usually agree with you , but I think you focused a bit much on how these distinctions might not be all that important, which is true in that they are not absolutely unilateral, but the legacies of their distinct natures, actions, and histories is also important not to dismiss either.
if anything, i think a quote on Aragorn might encapsulate a greater thematic tone “you are Isildur’s Heir, not isildur himself”
it vindicates the importance of legacy, one is not separated from their origin, you are its progression, its heir, its apotheosis, but you are not it in a static form. Aragorn does take up Isildurs mantle as king, he does not shirk it, but he let go of the ring and frodo in a way isildur did not. Likeswise the Noldor ARE wise and powerful, and them laying eyes on the twin trees literally seems to have imparted them some sort of greatness that cannot be compared to the grey and dark elves, and this can lead to both great folly like the Sons of Feanor, but also great acts like Galadriel and their watch over Angband. Them being of the noldor is fundemental to their being, just as the Proud songs of the Sindar proclaim their own unique twilight existance of being half in communion with the valar that make them them. And these pieces of legacy do not die out, they are remembered and developed. They are intrinsic pieces that inform who they are.
And as a side note, I remember the general atitude in the silmarillion on the dark elves being one more seeing them as scattered unfortunates and relative primitives rather than looking at them as moral lessers. Seeing how they weren’t taught and enriched by the very creators of the world.
And this isnt meant to be disparaging, just different take, I really do enjoy these insightful videos.
Excellent Thank you for getting into Silmarillion material. My jam at the moment
Oh yes. Love a good InDeepGeek video. Cheers! 🍻
Wonderful video as always mate
Excellent. The last 3 minutes of this video tying the Tolkein mythology into real British history elevated this to a great height. Thanks.
Superb and insightful analysis, Robert. I must admit that in reading Tolkien I have tended to skip over a lot of his exposition of these points because I felt it didn't contribute much to the story. The kind of explanation you presented in this video is exactly what I needed to appreciate the material better, and I'm sure it will help the next time I read the Silmarillion. Thanks for all your efforts in researching and making these videos.
Great video as always! Was curious if you'd be interested in digging into the Druedain a bit. They appear only briefly in LOTR and are often overlooked but after decades of reading the books they are one of my favorite bits. Would be great to see you cover them!
Hello - Have you read Unfinished Tales? There's a whole chapter on their history in that book.
Given Tolkien's massive and era-spanning world building it would be insane (or lazy) for there not to be a few different races within the elven species. The amazing thing is that most fantasy starts with "Oh I want High Elves, Wood Elves, and Dark Elves" and then if they decide to provide any reason for the differences they'll work backwards. Tolkien started at the beginning and let his branches of elven-kind develop naturally, which is why they're so good.
Another reason why Amazon's complete lack of understanding of the races in Middle Earth is so frustrating to those who care.
I thought the team behind R.O.P. didn't get full rights to the stories so they had to "make due" or fill in the blanks.
All elves in Lotr are the same race/species biologically speaking. In fact all elves and humans in Lotr are the same race biologically speaking.
@@Sol-Amar No - they didn't think the material was suited "for modern audiences" so they made up stuff to reflect their current social justice campaign. It had nothing to do with Tolkien.
@@jarlwilliam9932 Not so the Humans. The Variags of Khand and the Southrons seem very different from the Rohirrim/Gondorians. And in the Silmarillion, the three houses of men in the west (the house of Beor, the Haladin, and the house of Hador) from which the men in the northwest of Middle Earth during the Lord Of The Rings were all descended, all had specific physical differences that made them appear to be of different race.
@@dandiehm8414 Tolkien letter 153
Tolkien, “I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological - which worry me just as much as the theological and metaphysical (though you do not seem to mind them so much). Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring - even as a rare event : there are 2 cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Eärendil.1 But since some have held that the rate of longevity is a biological characteristic, within limits of variation, you could not have Elves in a sense 'immortal' - not eternal, but not dying by 'old age' - and Men mortal, more or less as they now seem to be in the Primary World - and yet sufficiently akin. I might answer that this 'biology' is only a theory, that modern 'gerontology', or whatever they call it, finds 'ageing' rather more mysterious, and less clearly inevitable in bodies of human structure. But I should actually answer: I do not care. This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary'; but if it pleased the Creator to give it (in a corrected form) Reality on any plane, then you would just have to enter it and begin studying its different biology, that is all.”
I've always been curious why Tolkien's elves are so different than those in many other stories - his are wise, ancient, and capable of kindness. other stories show them as chaotic, as likely to prank you as help you, and sometimes downright cruel without cause.
Tolkien viewed human society as always degenerating. Perhaps that's why he fantasized of a race who didn't.
Tolkien’s elves depart greatly from pagan tropes which other fantasies use. The concept of Tolkien’s elves where based on prefall man from the Bible who never fell from the light of God.
@@jarlwilliam9932 ... which elves are you reading about who never fell from their gods? The Silmarillion alone... Also Tolkien detested allegory.
@@JN-so6wt All of them, gods? There is only one God in Tolkien and the elves only worshipped one God.
Why do people keep bringing up that Tolkien hated allegory? He said it was okay for the author to use allegory but the reader did not get to claim allegory.
The entire religious substructure of lord of the rings is Christian, Eru is the Christian God. Tolkien literally states this multiple times and even says at the beginning of the 7th age that Eru incarnates himself as Jesus Christ.
As such all of the themes running in Lotr come from his own religion which he wrote into every facet of his work. The elves for instance where biologically the same race as men, Tolkien’s own words, the difference in their abilities comes from their souls, the souls of elves never fell from Eru’s grace while Men did, therefore men needed a savior, hence Eru becomes that savior in the 7th age of Arda. The age you’d currently be living in if Lotr was real.
Excellent video. I like the reference to all elves being all elves. It is a long history but a nice family reunion at the end.
The little elven trash talk with each other is amusing. (I personally do not like dissing the valar. they are good rulers of the world. But I will be nice and let you off on that.)
Excellent, I love your content
Thankyou for this video
I just love your videos - thank you!
For me, Tolkien's Elves is an homage to Scandinavian myths, but it's also an exercise: "What if Mankind weren't fallen?"
Mankind isn’t fallen unless you believe the Abrahamic myths of the real world.
@@Valleys56xx But that is the Judeo-Christian "side" of the myth of the elves. They would be the children of light who were not deceived by the devilish figure that is Melkor. Read the Tale of Adanel. There is the story of the fall of humanity in Tolkien's version.
@@rafaelgustavo7786 only some of the Numenoreans are fallen in that case, the rest of mankind is not.
@@Valleys56xx The Tale of Adanel version speaks of humanity awakening in the east. They hear a voice in their hearts. That voice is Eru. The voice asks humanity to develop and grow. Be free.
It happens that a beautiful and luminous figure, full of jewels, appears to the Man and says that he is the Lord of the World. It is probably Melkor. This entity says that the Voice is the Darkness that will devour humanity unless Man accepts Melkor as God.
Humanity accepts Melkor as Lord and accepts cruelty as their way of life. In this way, the Voice claims that humanity will not live forever, but will return to his Side after death. Death would be a punishment for the transgression, but also a gift from Eru so that humanity would not be trapped in the world. In this way, mankind fell. We lost our immortality, for example. A few rebelled against Melkor and fled to the West and encountered the Noldor in the Wars for the Silmarils.
@@Valleys56xx i think that Númenor is a discussion about death x life x immortality x human nature. It's the story of Atlantis (Plato's The Republic) with a theological analysis.
Elves are my favorite Fantasy Race. But as big as Lord of the Rings are in inspiring modern Fantasy games, I never got super into it. My favorite Elves are the ones in The Elder Scrolls.
Normally I'm fine with the images and diagrams you include moving around, but here I was going dizzy trying to read those Venn diagrams and flow charts as they were moving around the screen in small circles!
Epic! We’ll done!
There is one detail i can't fully agree with: that in the end, the whole elvendom was united again.
The Vanyar (mostly living in Valinor directly at the feet of Manwë), those relatively few Noldor who refused to follow Feänor to his self-imposed exile (mostly living in Tirion in the pass between the land of the Valar and the sea), the Teleri of Aman (mostly living around Alqualondë = Swanhaven by the sea), and even those Noldor and Sindar who left Middle Earth after the end of the First Age and took up their abode on Tol Eresseä, did not take part in the reunion during the Second and Third Ages that you so nicely describe.
By the time Galadriel, Cirdan, Elrond and Gildor went to Aman at the beginning of the Fourth age, the last time any of the above four groups had seen any of the elves of Middle Earth was literally two ages ago. And they were already considerably estranged when they parted. While the Noldor and Sindar of Middle-Earth had become artificers, scholars, diplomats and warriors - in short, in spite of all their elvendom, thoroughly earthly peoples - simplifying a bit, the Vanyar had somewhat turned into monks living in close, personal communion with their gods, whereas the Teleri of Aman might perhaps be best described as romantic isolationists by this point - not intended in any negative way, mind you.
I do not doubt that the elves of Tirion would welcome Galadriel and Gildor back as a long-lost cousins, and the elves of Alqualondë would welcome Cirdan back as an even longer-lost cousin, and the elves of Eresseä Elrond, and all of them would likely bow to Olorin = Gandalf in reverence and be flabbergasted, not knowing what to say, at the sight of Bilbo, who, i figure, might head straight for Valinor to live among the Vanyar, which would by far surpass even his wildest hopes and dreams. Can you imagine Bilbo reciting some of the poetry he personally composed in Rivendell before Manwë and Varda, and falling asleep of exhaustion in the middle of it?
Then again, i doubt that even now, the Teleri of Aman would look to kindly on Galadriel and Gildor. Both the Vanyar and the people of Tirion might tell all the returning elves: "You brought all this upon yourselves, and you know what, we told you so when it was still time, but you refused to listen. On top of that, we fought that bloody war on your behalf at the end of the First Age, overthrowing Melkor for good. But you squandered all that by letting that other Dark Lord Sauron arise, even collaborating with him forging some magic rings, most of which he ended up using to your detriment and that of Men. Frankly, all this sounds exceedingly foolish to us, and quite predictably, not exactly a resounding success either. For example, regarding Numenor, matters got out of hand in such a terrible way that Eru Iluvatar himself felt compelled to intervene, not even Manwë and Varda could figure out how to properly deal with that utter mess."
I guess such hard feelings could heal over time. Galadriel had become humble by this point and would admit some guilt, in particular that following Feänor, she contributed to laying the foundations to much loss of life in Alqualondë and the Helcaraxe, even if she later tried to oppose the Kinslaying, and also that he idea to establish her own realm against the explicit command of Manwë was both foolish in the first place and failed in the end. Cirdan and Elrond could both convincingly argue that they had never done much evil, in particular had no part in Feänor's rebellion, but both had done huge amounts of work to help other elves of many kinds. Besides, i expect Manwë and Varda would intervene and ask both sides to try and understand each other and reconcile, as Eärendil had been forgiven before. But it's far from a foregone conclusion that sufficient understanding could indeed be reached among the now five distinctly different groups of elves in Aman: Vanyar, Tirion, Teleri, Eresseä, and the latest returners.
On top of that, while most of the Eldar will return during the Fourth Age, not all will, and those who decide to still remain in Middle Earth will most definitely not reunite with the Vanyar - or with any of the elves of Aman for that matter.
Your analysis that here we have a compelling argument for tolerance and cultural synthesis feels both original and convincing to me. But there is a flip side to this coin that you don't articulate as clearly: Sunderings are unavoidable, they always happen, and while some may be healed in time, not all will; some sunderings are likely to endure to the end of the world, and for Men, maybe even beyond that. There is no way back to paradise - or for the elves, to Cuiviénen.
Apart from that: your video is a lovely summary containing a number of details i wasn't aware of. Thank you!
Well said but I do have a few points I'd like to raise.
Galadriel was never a follower of Fëanor. She did want to return to Middle-Earth but that was to find a land of her own, not because she wanted any part of Fëanor's foolish quest for vengeance. Galadriel's mother was Teleri and in his later writings, Tolkien even wrote of her attempting to defend the Teleri from Fëanor's attack.
The Elves who remained in Middle-Earth as of the beginning of the 2nd Age were in many ways refugees who were busy trying to establish themselves. I doubt they ever would have had the strength to single-handedly take on Sauron. Indeed, from my readings, I suspect the Elves did not realize that the foe they were facing was actually Sauron until he created the One Ring.
Eru Ilúvatar intervened with the Númenoreans because he had forbidden the Valar to take direct action against the Children of Ilúvatar
Hey, they have 2 ages worth of stories to tell each other. That's an epic chin-wag that will cover many hard feelings.
@@istari0 All great points, and i agree those are likely to help reconciliation when Galadriel, Gildor, and Elrond bring them up; Cirdan likely had no part in any of this in the first place.
In particular, you are right that Galadriel did not swear Feänor's oath and it is highly unlikely that she helped him in the kinslaying; however, by following him on the way to Middle Earth, she also came under the Doom of Mandos. She was not his follower, yet she followed his host, and she did so against the explicit advice (and example) of both her father King Finarfin of Tirion and her grandfather King Olwë of Alqualondë.
@Pengalen Indeed!
Olwë is likely eager to hear the stories of his brother Elwë Singollo and his niece Luthien in more detail than Luthien's grandson-in-law Eärendil surely already told him, yet he is unlikely to enjoy them, but he will regard their ends as so sad as to be barely imaginable. It will likely only reinforce his feeling that remaining in Middle Earth, and ever more so returning thither, were extremely bad ideas.
Regarding Finarfin, the same applies to the stories of his sons Finrod, Orodreth, Angrod, and Aegnor, his nephews Fingon and Turgon, his granddaughters Finduilas and Celebrian, his grand-nephews Gil-galad and Maeglin, and his great-granddaughter Arwen, all of whom perished in Middle Earth, most by being slain in various wars. To understand how much Finarfin lost, just consider that apart from his daughter Galadriel, his closest surviving kin are his great-grandsons Elladan and Elrohir...
@@IngoSchwarze "But Finrod walks with his Father Finarfin beneath the trees in Eldamar". Finrod was re-united with his Father in Valinor. It is to be thought that all the others you mentioned were eventually reunited as well - EXCEPT for Arwen. Finarfin never saw her, and he will never get to see her.
@@dandiehm8414 Thanks for reminding me that it is not all that unusual for Elves to be released from the Halls of Mandos in order to continue their life in Valinor.
I mislead myself by only cosidering the indeed unusual case of Glorfindel - but he is unusual only in so far as he was released back to Middle Earth rather than Valinor.
Yes, your point makes reconciliation even more likely than i estimated above.
Thank-you, very interesting and helpful!
Robert, thank you for yet again blowing us away with your skill and style, you sir are a master storyteller.
I really appreciated your insight on Tolkien's reasons to sunder and reunite the Elves. I find the Avari quite fascinating and, notwithstanding what Calaquendi think about them, they must have developed a unique culture, by themselves, next to the land and the forests and the rivers. Quendi created words and music even before meeting the Valar. They intrinsically don't need gods to generate meaning and beauty and harmony.
I'm glad to have read about the Calaquendi but I would have loved to discover Avari lore and craft.
Thank you so much for your beautiful videos. I’m thoroughly enjoying watching them all. In addition to this history of the elves, might I request an overview of their different cultures? The elves of Mirkwood were described very differently than those of Lothlorian, for example. You touched on this in the beginning with the fair, wise, musical, and so on. I would love to know more about the culture of the elves that we see in LOTR and the hobbit. Thank you again.
Nice work dude thanks
Well, that's that. Finally. Maybe now there'll be fewer barroom brawls and knifings now. I have lost count of how many Quendi/Noldor/Teleri based eye gougings I've been a part of. And I'm not proud of that.
We've all been there bro ;)
I already know everything but I love to hear you talk
Cant forget the orcs, the poor elves kidnapped by servants of melkor from cuivinien before they were sundered to valinor
The last few things you said got me thinking about the lore I made for my own version of elf characters a while ago. I never actually finished it, but I was planning on just having a main group of elves, and an "other" group being 12 or so smaller other groups assimilated into the main culture (I did also have light and dark but that was something kind of like right vs left handed). There would be different towns and customs based on location but as far as I had planned, no other ethnicities. The reason I brought this up is bc I'm Ashkenazi Jewish and live in America and until I saw this didn't realize how my experience and where I live shaped my world building so differently than Tolkien's. Sometimes I'll refer to catholics, protestants, mormons, episcopals, and even atheists whose heritage derives from one of those churches as just "Christians". Even though I know the difference, I'm far enough in the out group that I don't often feel the need to differentiate it, which is probably why I didn't think to break up the main elven culture in my own lore. Tolkien lived in England where a difference of just a few miles could mean a different accent, culture, and even ethnicity, so of course he had to create a new group of elves for every new place they inhabited. For me in the US, ethnicity is relatively consistent, there are just different concentrations in different places. That's why I didn't initially think that 2 civilizations of elves, even weeks away and having been separated for thousands of years, would lead to a split in ethnicities.
Well you see there's "Elves", and then there's _Elves_
Great video! It helped with research for my video on Elven Genealogy that aims to map out over 30 different kinds of elves from different fantasy universes.
Oh my I’ve waited for this video for so long hahahahaha
well done, m8. Thank you.
You explain this a lot better than that other guy;)
You have to understand before Tolkein elves were the toy making/shelf standing kind. Everything we associate with fantasy elves (including their long lives) Tolkein invented.
I wish a movie would be made, probably a trilogy, on the creation. This is such a great story with so many different cultures.
Where did the pointy ear thing come from? I've read the main books.
??
Fairy legend and lore of real-world cultures, I imagine.
Interestingly, elven ears aren't actually described in the legendarium AFAIK. I believe Tolkien calls them "leaf shaped" in one of his letters, but that's pretty ambiguous.
Just like Balrog wings, this topic has been debated... vigorously...
Depicting Elves as having pointy ears predates Tolkien so when artists started making drawing and paintings of Elves from Tolkien, they continued to do so. AFAIK, Tolkien never objected to it and I suspect he would have if he really had a problem with it.
Movies also had to visibly differentiate elves from humans and while I think I've read somewhere that Tolkien didn't like the pointy ar concept, it was probably the easiest way and immediately understandable from the audience used to these types of portrayal
Would love to hear your take on Sanderson's Stormlight Archives!
That description of elves' souls reminds me of how the Thalmor of Elder Scrolls lore view their connection to the world. Similar but with more resentment, it should be noted. So much so that they seek to destroy Nirn to free themselves from their bodies and return to a divine state. I would be willing to bet that whoever wrote that bit of TES lore was influenced by Tolkien elves.
Oh how I wish you would go into the deep lore of the Dune universe on this channel.
Great video on the elves. I would be very grateful if you wanted to make a video on the origin of elves in general before Tolkien. There's too many references to them in too many cultures going back at least centuries for Tolkien to have just invented them.
As I try to follow this, I think of it in terms of an annotated "family" tree. Does anyone know of one?
I wish you were into Warhammer 40k lore. I would love some of your discussions on different legions relationship to one and other but i dont think 40k has enough shadowy concealed motives as you like from GoTs or Tolkiens works
General characteristics of the Quendi: Tall, beautiful faces and body (Tolkien often uses the word lithe combined with the physical build of the character, be It strong or leaner, to indicate an elegante/shapely form and of graceful movement). Fair skin, often very pale and occasionally rudy complexion for those with red hair. Maidros is a good example of everything described here as he was very tall, strong, shapely/elegant in form and movement, very beautiful, red-brown-haired, fair skin but possibly with a rudy complexion.
The Avari: Proto Eldar Noldor, Vanyar and Teleri, the oldest of elves belong to this clan. The name means "the refusers" but they call themselves the originals. Less skilled in all things than the other clans because of their lack of contact with the Ainur or Exiles or Sindar.
The Eldar: Strongest, most adventurer and valiant elves that decided to make the Great Journey. Also tallest for their woman were 'seldom less' than 6 feet tall and their men 'no less' than 6 foot 6. The male average is elsewhere described as about 7 feet, which meakes sense considering their shortest. Also generally younger members at the time of the Journey. About 2/3 of the elven people at the time. Hadoreans and specially the Númenóreans were said to be hardly distinguishable from the Eldar until their youth lasted. The Eldar generally considered long hair very beautiful.
The Eldar clans:
1. Teleri or Lindar: Generaly dark-haired, but not black as some of the Noldor clan. There are also those with fair hair, varying from very light blonde to white and silver-grey, these were generally related to Thingol's bloodline. They are said to be *'somewhat' less in stature and in build than the Noldor, but Tolkien used 'somewhat' heavily indicating Celeborn (called 'silver-tall' among his people) would not be considered tall among the Noldor, thus a noticible difference though not great, for they were in fact very similar to the Noldor in general, hardly distinguishable, specially those of Valinor who also had brighter eyes. They were, however, still described as 'strong' by Tolkien, indicating, in average, a stronger body than most clans of men. Their eye colour ranged from dark to grey to even blue (regarding those fair-haired).
* somewhat was used to height differences up to 6 inches (Gimli somewhat taller than the hobbits). Even the 'petty-dwarves' were said to be 'somewhat' smaller than their kin despite their name. Just a bit of context, but is up for interpretation, even though is certainly a substantial/noticeable difference.
1.1. Lindar of Valinor: Exactly as was described above. They mastered the art of singing, they were also great ship builders and sailors. Brighter eyes than the other Teleri clans.
1.2. Sindar or Grey-elves: As was described in Teleri, but with less bright eyes, which was the chief distinction between them and the exiles. Their knowledge on forests (living and for military purpouses) was also among the greatest in history. Also great sailors and shipwrights in the case of the elves of the Falas and Balar. Greatest voices of the Eldar.
1.3. Nandor: Same characteristics, but they were afraid of the misty mountains at some point, indicating less courage and generally less strength.
1.3.1. Green elves: Eventually arrived in Beleriand through the Misty and Blue mountains. Vegetarian for the most part, take that as you wish regarding potential physical characteristics.
1.3.2. Silvan Elves: Not accounted among the Eldar according to the lore in LOTR. Also said to be hardly distinguishable to the Avari, in fact some Avari clans mixed with them through out millenia, thus probably a lack of stature and strength when compared to other Eldar clans as well as more *variable hair colour.
*See 'The Avari' above and the other Eldar big clans hair characteristics.
2. Noldor: Described as physically strong and very tall (about 7 feet). The tallest and strongest of the Elven folk, also 'the mightiest of the children of the world'. The best overall smithcrafts of the world as well as the greatest loremasters, specially regarding linguistics. Their hair colour was in general very dark-brown or black, but red-brown, *golden and even silver (Míriel) was possible but very rare. Very bright eyes, generally grey and also in different "shades" of It like blue-grey, but also dark. High level of curiosity and want for knowledge when in comparison with the other clans. That natural ambition, high courage along with their great overall abilities and accomplishments makes them very prideful in general, the consequences of that can be very negative such as arrogance and supremacy (Feanor and some of his children).
*Marriages between the clans were rare in Valinor except for the royal and noble houses, the Golden hair appears because of Vanyarin individuals marrying into the clan.
2.1. The Exiled Noldor: Many of them and their descendants intermarried with the Sindar during their years on ME. Thus some (future generations) were not so tall and spiritually enhanced as those original exiles. They also suffered a cultural "sindarization" that could be observed specially towards the language, but Quenya remained as the loremasters's language for their works. The culture among the exiles and their descendants was much more militaristic due to rampant wars when compared to other clans. They became the 'guardians of ME'.
The Noldorin culture was the chief one that influenced the civilization of Númenór.
3. Vanyar: The name was given because of their golden hair, but also because they are considered the 'highest' of elves, the first ones. They were considered the *fairest of elves and the most loyal to the Valar, even lived nearer to them abandoning Tirion. As It was seen among the Noldor with Vanyar blood, they seemed to be less proud and wiser than the Noldor for the most part. They also loved music and poetry very much.
Ingwe was considered by all elves of Aman as their High-King, thus they commanded a lot of respect from the other clans.
*All Eldar were beautiful but is possible, since the loremasters are of Noldorin descent, that their love for gold and Its colour could've heavily influenced that view.
Those are the basics.
does anyone know where I can find those elven classification separation charts scattered across the video? it would be really helpful! thank
They are usually put in back of more recent versions of The Silmarillian. I have a hard-copy that came with exactly that. You can probably find a PDF somewhere however.
Is it true that the High Elves were the ones who were keen on pipeweed?
*Bad-um-tish*
You may be joking, but Tolkien seems to have quietly suggested that no Elf ever smoked anything.
Drinking --- different story, as we see when Bilbo and Thorin's company escape from Thingol's prison.
What was Tolkien's reference for the variety of types of elves?
So many flavors of elves!
At 4:22 you say all of the 144 firstborn elves were among the Avari, but it's also said that all of the Minyar accepted the summons of the Valar. Would that not include those among the Minyar that were firstborn?
I am half way through The Silmarillion and i just realized something... I realized that i wasn't paying attention, so i am here now, for an easier digestion.
i would like to learn more about the avari and what they did through the ages
I'm a bit new to the legendarium here. Would a human, upon seeing a Quendë for the first time, need to be told that it is a separate species in order to recognise it as such, or would it give off uncanny valley vibes like a WH40k Aeldari?
In everquest gnomes are tinkerers, focusing mainly upon intelligence
I think it should be specified that where the elves first woke up was actually a location in Middle Earth called Cuiviénen, and not the Undying Lands.
I have listened to this about 8 times.......still befuddled. Love the mess.
Omitting their kinslaying in the Undying Lands was a huge mistake. That's the most important and interesting event in their history.
''We've had one kinslaying yes, but what about second kinslaying?''
the elves have always seemed celtic to me and the armies of man was the angles jutes and saxons as they are both germanic in origin but the celts came before and and the rest came after
I've always wondered what the dark elves did after Sauron's defeat, in the "age of men." They've lived in their lands, wherever they are, since the beginning of the first age, lived longer on their land than any other race besides the valar. Did they just leave to the west too? To a land they've only vaguely heard about tens of thousands of years ago? Of all the elves this must have been the most painful for them to go in the age of men.
Tolkien LOVED his names and titles and what these said about the characters who carried them. British culture sinking deep into the way he did characterization.
re: 14:38 but you said at 4:00 that "the entire first generation" refused to go west... yet you show here that all the Minyar and most of the Tatyar (All the 1st awoken and some 2nd) became Vanyar and Noldor Calaquendi (went west), while the Avari and Moriquendi were mostly Nelyar & Teleri with some Tatyar (so the whole 3rd generation and some 2nd). Did I miss something there??
Are there no live streams on this channel any more?
Man loved them Elves
My head hurts
4:01 WAIT WHAT? Is that canon? I must've missed this! Where is this from? So, is it effectively confirmed that Imin, Tata, and Enel, and their wives, all ended up Avari (or worse??)
I think I read somethin about Imin, but nothing of the rest.
This description of Tolkiens Elves is just about as complicated as the Sumarian legends of the Annunaki history stuff I've been reading.
But where do the Keeblers fit in?
5:23 ... "Its not today..."