Why wasn't Glorfindel in the fellowship?
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- Опубликовано: 27 авг 2023
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I love the fanarts of Glorfindel being rejected or refusing to join the Fellowship on the grounds that "He's good for killing Balrogs and what are the chances they'll run into one of those?" and then they find Durin's Bane and Gandalf makes an "aw shit!" face.
Do you happen to have a link to one?
it's better to have a Glorfindel and not need him, than need one and not have him.
@@lliamreusser4534yes please 😅
Lets be real, having a high level NPC in your party just takes away all the xp you could get :p @@exploreseafaring
lmaoooo, love that
Moria had a level cap of 20. Glorifindel would have borked everybody’s xp.
basically like taking a level 80 into BRD
I hate that this makes perfect sense to me.
Actually he would have only borked Gandalf xp, since we all know Gandalf stole everyone XP when he insisted on battling a balrog alone, and some time later he returns with a lot of loot and new spells, pretty sneaky guy this Gandalf but he doesn't fool me for a second.
@zeustechbr
Gandalf i such a loot goblin. He even took Palantir for himself. I bet Gandalf would have taken the one ring too, if he was going for shadow build instead of light build.
@@sunnuntaiselori1927 also lets remember that gandalf threw a fit when Pippin stole his Palantir. Loot goblin indeed
That tag team match between Glorfindel and Gandalf against the Balrog would have been hype though.
Glorf would've been like, b**** please, I been killing Balrogs since you were a twinkle in Iluvatar's eye.
@@laureate90Well, I mean. Glorfindel doesn't exactly eat the things for breakfast. On his own the result was roughly the same as Gandalf vs. the Balrog was: mutual destruction. If they took one on together, though, they'd likely come out definitively victorious.
@@OneTrueNobodyGandalf would cast *haste* on Glorfindel, who would smite Durin's Bane back into the abyss!
Glorfindel at least wouldn't have wailed like a Hobbit lass and wet himself like SOME elves I could mention.
@@TJDious And some dwarves we could mention, if we're being totally fair there.
He was out-competed by Peregrin Took, because Gandalf needed a chaotic random generator that could confuse the plans of Lord Evil, by doing exactly the wrong thing at the wrong moment.
This is the main problem when authors/directors etc make a character too powerful; it either takes all the suspense out of the story, or it requires an arms race escalation of power to ad absurdum. The latter is what makes the whole Marvel universe so stupid; once you create a character or Macguffin along the lines of the Infinity Gauntlet, stupid writing and Deus Ex Machina becomes required to resolve the story. Tolkein saw that problem and deftly avoided it by just not having Superman-Elf along for the quest.
@@bobf5360and the reason for him not going actually making sense and being perfectly reasonable.
The more powerful the character the more likely to fall to the ring. This makes balancing the universe easy
@@cameronlamb1869 i guess so, but Galadriel, easily one of the most powerful characters in the universe at the time, was able to resist within the space of just a conversation. Gandalf wasn't even tempted, nor Elrond, Aragorn, nor even lowly Faramir. Only Boromir the Jacka$$ was tempted. Glorfindel might have been though, we'll never know.
@@bobf5360 Boromir wasn't a jackass. He was a noble, valiant man that had a moment of weakness. He desperately wanted to protect his family and people from annihilation and the ring used that great desire of his to tempt him. He lived a valiant hero and died a valiant hero.
"He could not single handedly fight his way to Mt Doom."
Fingolfin - "Hold my beer."
Right!? Lmao, also, Gandalf, Glorfindel, Elrond and Aragorn alone would present a pretty damn powerful combo to stop, considering the ringwraiths want nothing to do with Glorfindel on his own, and Gandalf 1 v 5 'ed them at weathertop. Those 4 alone (not saying there wouldn't be others) would be a hell of a force to reckon with.
And thus Fingolfin died.
@@user-ci4gh7td7n The Wraiths are not Sauron only servants, just his most "thrustworthy" ones. Fighting the Nazguls far away from their master is one thing. Attacking them in the seat of power of Sauron would be another deal entirely.
This is the main problem when authors/directors etc make a character too powerful; it either takes all the suspense out of the story, or it requires an arms race escalation of power to ad absurdum. The latter is what makes the whole Marvel universe so stupid; once you create a character or Macguffin along the lines of the Infinity Gauntlet, stupid writing and Deus Ex Machina becomes required to resolve the story. Tolkein saw that problem and deftly avoided it by just not having Superman-Elf along for the quest.
@@bobf5360 But there is no superman elf. Neither Glorfindel or Fingolfin would have been able to storm Barad Dur and bring down Sauron.
Yes, Fingolfin defied and wounded Morgoth but he still lost in the end.
Down in the mines, the Troll and the Orcs all attack as normal, but when the Balrog comes out, it starts to roar and crack its whip, only to spot Glorfindel's aura, and go very still and quiet. It slowly drops its weapons, slowly raises its hands, and carefully begins to walk backward into the shadows. As the Orcs and goblins catch up, the Balrog tells the horde to, "Fly, you fools!" before disappearing from view.
I always thought Glorfindel was kept back as some sort of last reserve. Not to defeat Sauron, but to hold him/his forces back until the last of the elves could leave Middle Earth.
He was sent back to Middle Earth by the Valar to aid in the fight against Sauron. There were no real guidelines on what exactly that fight looked like.
But his absence from the fellowship was because it was a stealth mission. But hard to remain hidden when you're being followed around by a being of literal angelic might 😂
@@BM-wf9ufBut Glorfindel could not hide his powerful presence, unlike Gandalf.
It was something that radiated from him as described in the books.
Yeah. The Lord of the Rings is essentially a secret mission in the middle of a massive war - you wouldn't expect all the powerful warriors to be joining it. You'd expect a few powerful and knowledgable members to guide and protect the mission, and a few weaker ones to draw less attention.
@@BM-wf9uf It would've been awesome if Glorfindel travelled south with Elrond's sons and the Grey Company to fight in the Battle at Pelennor Fields
That's a good and valid point. Even without the whole "this is a stealth mission" it's still a solid strategy, could've very well have been in the story. Like "If the mission fails we're fucked, better have SuperElf here as a backup plan".
I think I remember hearing somewhere that one of the video games has Glorfindel instead heading north during the War of the Ring to help the elves up that way. Which honestly makes sense --- Glorfindel can use his talents and status as a legendary hero to not only help defend his people, but also give Sauron another big shiny threat to focus on far away from the Fellowship.
Battle for Middle Earth II had that.
That's very in line with what we see in the books. At every point, part of the goal was to draw attention away from the Ring's actual location. Gandalf being really flashy at and around Weathertop, him trying to _avoid_ being flashy atop Caradras, taking Pippin to Minas Tirith, and that frontal assault on the Black Gate come to mind.
This was my thought too for what he did after the Fellowship left. There were several other battles at the time that Frodo was getting to Mount Doom, and it makes sense that Glorfindel would have a role in the north.
I love that game. It managed to made up it's own campain without changing the lore unlike many games. It was really good, it made sense and it could exist in parallel with the original lore without problem.
I wonder if the council had ever thought of letting Glorfindel run in the opposite direction to confuse Sauron.
I think there are hints that he kinda did that, fighting in some of the battles that happened during the war of the ring.
🤣🤣🤣🤣 Sauron senses the ring. The Witch King: "Should we go retrieve it master?" Sauron: "Screw that ring, freaking Glorf is coming, get back into the gate. There's a higher chance we die from SuperElf here than someone wanting to destroy my ring."
It has also been suggested that Elrond intended the Fellowship as ambassadors of their races and messengers to the divided peoples of Middle Earth. This did indeed happen in the story. And that in particular the young Legolas and Gimli were chosen as the brightest and clearest representatives of their races. Glorfindel could not have developed a deep friendship with Gimli or some other, greater Dwarf Lord. He was about the past, not the future.
In this we also see the reason why Legolas was not likewise a liability and could indeed be the representative of the elves on the Fellowship, because he had never himself left Middle-earth in any sense. He would not have been "visible" in the way that Glorfindel was.
On a less lore-related note and more of a writing-process note, it's funny to think "Why wasn't Glorfindel part of the Fellowship when he was so powerful?" when you consider that, had Tolkien gone with the idea of including him in the Fellowship, then Glorfindel's power and significance likely wouldn't have become so great in the first place. In that event, the Glorfindel who fought the Balrog would likely have been his namesake at best. That Tolkien consciously chose to elevate Glorfindel's lore-significance after minimizing his plot-significance is an interesting point of discussion on its own.
Interesting point you have there. Asides from the obvious reason of semantics and feel of the overall structure of the story across all three books. I wonder what Tolkien’s personal reasons were. After all, feeling, being an important aspect of creativity.
I love how Nazgûl always flee just by the presence of Glorfindel.
Because one does not simply Glorf into Mordor.
I've always wondered what that sign by the Black Gate meant. 'No Glorfing'
@@malcolmt7883 😂
@@malcolmt7883 The Glorf zone is only or glorfin' and unglorfin'!
I love his famous catchphrase "It's Glorfin' time!"
@@RyPolecatand then he Glorfed all over the place?
I can never learn too much about Glorfindel. Many thanks for digging deeper into his character!
On the screen, I really wish that someone will give Glorfindel some love! The race to the Fjord in the FOTR is one of my favorite scenes in the trilogy (a close second to Gandalf facing off the Balrog).
It wouldn't work well in the movies. In a book you're not really limited by screentime and can put in characters that are callbacks to other books, and it won't impact the story negatively too much. In a movie you have to be really efficient with your time. Putting in a super powerful character that only appears once for a moment and then disappears for the rest of the story would feel really out of place - a new plot thread (of which LotR has already an overwhelming abundance) that leads to no resolution in the end. While I love Glorfindel I have to admit using Arwen in his place makes much more sense in the movie narrative.
I was so sad to lose that moment in the movie.
He was always the character I was most disappointed in not being in the movie. Idk how it well if would have worked as it’s hard to argue with what we got. But I still missed him
Hot take, I think Tom bombadil should have been in the movie. Like I know his character didn't quite fit the theme of the movies but I think the movies would have been better if they made like a 4th and 5th movie so it could be more accurate to the books. I think peter Jackson made a masterpiece but I think it would have benefitted to have more time and less constraints. There's too many characters that deserved screen time that had to be dropped and that's sad to me because the books were awesome. Not flawless but I think they are an industry standard for fantasy and world building. I don't typically enjoy fantasy bc I always compare to LOTR, but I think the elder scrolls comes close to just how interesting fantasy can be
@@dimitrilitovsk2372That's not a hot take, as Bombadil is one of, if not the most named character people wanted to see in the films that was left out. Elijah Wood, on Marc Maron's WTF podcast, said it was by far the character that most people told him they wished was in the films. I love Tom Bombadil as a character, and it would've been great to see him in the movies. He wasn't really essential to the story/plot though, so I get why they chose to leave him out. I haven't heard Peter Jackson say anything about it, but since he was such a huge fan of LotR, I have to believe he would have loved to include him, if he was a more essential character.
@@dimitrilitovsk2372Elder Scrolls is great but it gets me every time i’m playing Skyrim or Oblivion and meet a friendly Orc. I just instantly want to fight them from all my years of loving LOTR. 😂
I missed him a lot also Tom Bombadil
@@daytwaqua i only think Tom's character wouldn't work in the movies because he was a lot more whimsical, compared to the seriousness of the films in general, but you're right, many Tolkien fans wanted Tom. Idk, I feel like his character would be better in a TV series rather than a movie because they could have the tom bombadil episode and then people who don't like toms character wouldn't be stuck with him. Like I personally hate musicals but I imagine Tom would be singing half of the time he's on screen
Glorfindel also would NOT have become fast friends with Gimli. that point also should not be overlooked.
As someone descending from the Doriath Sindar, Legolas would be more prejudiced against dwarves than a Gondolin Noldor such as Glorfindel.
@@aldeayeah But Legolas and Gimli were more or less equals, peers, and could learn to respect each other on the same level. A Gimli-Glorfindel "bromance" would be like the Gimli-Galadriel "romance": extremely asymmetrical.
@@aldeayeah Legolas was primarily chosen because he is hastier and more impatient than other Elves, so he was able to communicate and relate better with the short lived races.
I think there's another aspect as well, that Glorfindel in being so powerful was also proud of his power, and we all know how the One Ring responds to pride. Beings greater than him like Galadriel and Gandalf expressed desire for the ring, Galadriel referring to refusing it as a "trial," suggesting a real possibility of failure. In this sense, Glorfindel's power could well have been ruinous, because if he took the ring, not even Gandalf was likely to be able to reclaim it.
No. Glorfindel was completely impervious to the lure of the Ring. He was probably the most saintly creature in all of Middle-Earth. He had proven himself beyond all corruption, it is why he of all elves was sent back.
@@dany1441 Is that totally confirmed? Given that Gandalf himself was not immune I wouldn't imagine it. If there's a direct source I'd be very interested.
@@ItsmeInternetStranger The fact that he's the only one ever sent back settles it for me.
I think it's worth mentioning that being impervious to the "lure" is not the same as being immune to the Ring itself. Many members of the Fellowship showed no inclination to seek the Ring (the notion that it would eventually corrupt them all is, as far as I remember, a movie-only invention). And a whole bunch of dwarves and elves had the Ring sitting in front of them for a while in Rivendell, and knew full well it would remain in Frodo's keeping there for a time afterward.
So it's not exceptionally difficult to simply not lust after the Ring, to not be lured by it, when you know the danger of the thing and have not yet been directly touched by its magic. Glorfindel likely would have been impervious to that lure, just as Legolas and Gimli apparently were.
The fact that he was powerful and proud of his power, even in a good-hearted sense, would have been dangerous if he, say, laid his hand on the Ring. But that applies to most of the Fellowship.
@@OneTrueNobody I don't remember Glorfindel ever showing pride. I know OP said he did but he neglected to say where or when.
Basically, it was bad enough having Gandalf along. Add in Glorfindel and it would have been like a giant beacon to all of the baddies "Looky here!", especially to Sauron and Saruman. The Ring Wraiths certainly would have noticed and followed them everywhere (at a distance) until Sauron could surround them with an army. And as happened in the books, pretty much the only way Frodo could have gotten the ring to into Mordor and to Mt Doom was without any of the more powerful, and thus more noticeable members of the fellowship. Two hobbits and a wretch could (barely) pass notice, but even someone like Legolas would have got them caught.
This seems to have been considered from the start, too, since none of the Fellowship were charged with completing the journey alongside Frodo. Even before the Fellowship was forced apart, there were plans for, say, Aragorn and Boromir to split off from the group and go to Minas Tirith. It seems the group originally intended to wing it somewhat as far as who could actually cross Mordor's borders and who would break away to serve another purpose.
@@OneTrueNobody Didn't Boromir essentially say "I will accompany the Fellowship until the Falls, but after that I must return home"? I can't remember if that was pre-Moria or as they were sailing down the Anduin.
Yes, and I have the impression that Gandalf's original plan was for only him (or maybe with Gimli) to actually go all the way to Mordor.
@@OneTrueNobody Boromir only joined, because they were more or less going the same way anyway, and it's a long and perilous road. (He also secretly wanted the ring for Gondor). But he had the obligation to go back to Minas Tirith and report to his Father.
Aragorn had promised he's go to Minas Tirith with Boromir, thinking Gandalf would stay with Frodo.
Gimli and Legolas asked to join, as it would be their first real adventure/quest or worth for them.(Both are considered very young for their race). Gimli was denied the quest of Erebor, so this was his chance. And it also ended up fitting that the ring be went to destruction, with represented of every free folk race of Middle Earth.(even if that was by, seemingly pure coincidence.)
The idea that no oath was taken, was so that, no one must feel obligated to keep going, having no idea what else might happened on the way. (which did happen, when they split, the Trio had to choose between the Ringbearer and the quest, or Merry and Pippin. Had they taken an oath, they would have felt obligated to chase the Ring bearer, and leave Merry and Pip to their fate.
All of these decisions happened early enough during the writing process that Tolkien could have left out the fact that Glorfindel acted like a beacon. Probably the reason why Tolkien made the decision to leave him off the fellowship and instead use him as a device to get him to rivendell was because he would have made the whole journey that much easier.
take out Legolas and add in Glorfindel... The Watcher in the Water can possibly be defeated, thus eliminating the necessity to only choose the mines of moria as a pathway. If they go through the mines Gandalf and Glorfindel together can probably either ward off or even defeat the balrog. Gandolf and Glorfindel probably would see the necessity to break the fellowship, with one of them accompanying frodo and sam, and the other off to fight the great wars of rohan and gondor. Or even if sam and frodo break off alone, the following conflicts probably aren't as dramatic. Saruman probably can't stand against the two of them, and maybe even denathor is excised much like Theoden.
By writing in the idea that Glorfindel is essentially a giant torch that is visible to all evil doers you make the journey of frodo/fellowship more challenging and interesting. Otherwise having him around Glorfindel can essentially Dues ex machina any problem they come across.
No one in the book ever explicitly says that one of the main reasons Merry and Pippin were included in the Fellowship is because they act as decoy halflings distracting enemy forces.
It just ended up being what happened. As they were mistaken for Frodo and his servant by Saruman's Uruk-Hai.
@@jawstrock2215 You don't think Gandalf and Elrond could have predicted extra halflings would help confuse Sauron and Saruman?
@@knightrider585Maybe, but it was not the reason for their presence. Friendship, and the positive energy it can bring was a bigger reason.
But I don't think they predicted they would have this much effect. At best they might have figured the 4 of them, could have snuck in Mordor, and pass the ring if one was to fall.(Hobbits are renown for their stealth).
And if you want to bring in fate in, you could say they really wanted to go, because they were meant to shake the council of man in the south(Rohan and Gondor), and kind of wake them all up to fight against Sauron. (As well as wake up the forest, and disturb Saruman.)
Everyone in the fellowship volunteered, and wanted to go, in the end.
If Glorfindel went, he would have been the only one "appointed".
If they had such dark thoughts, they would not be so foolish to articulate them. But just to be sure, Gandalf blinked heavily when he brought up all the friendship talk to Elrond who had not caught up yet
My favorite part of Glorfindel's story is when he told the balrog "It's glorfin time" and glorfed all over him
As you say, Glofindal’s spirt was far too bright for the mission. Sauron expected Glorindal. I believe the orcs of Cirith Ungol thought Sam might be Glofindal because he was able to get past the watchers.
At least pick a wrong spelling lol
Yeah the orcs were certain a powerful elven warrior was amongst them but just Sam with the ring of power 😂.
@@EpicMathTime lmao
@@EpicMathTimethe best comment I’ve read in weeks
Orcs actually do have a strong cultural memory, since they recognized Gandalf's and Thorin's swords.
Let's also remember one key great moment from Glorfindel: he's one of the responsible for saving the north (former Kingdom of Arnor) from destruction from the hands of the Witch-King of Angmar during the Third Age, so he basically saved The Shire, Bree, all these regions from felling to the dark side even before the events of LOTR
He didn't actually save Arthedain from being destroyed but he along with an army from Gondor made sure Angmar was wiped out so at least those areas that produced our Hobbit heroes would survive to do so.
A major theme of the LOTR is that good benefits most when the least powerful among good people stand against the most powerful evil. Also, conversely, that using great power to do good is turned to ironic consequences by evil. Glorfindel + Gandalf might have been like bringing a nuke to a knife fight. The Powers figured out not to do that in the First Age, when their overzealous protection of the Elves came to be misinterpreted as contempt by Feanor's jealousy.
A bigger question for me is why didn't he join the Gray Company when they went off to help Aragorn. Can you imagine how terrified Sauron would have been with the Heir of Elendil, Olorin, and Glorfindel riding around the black gates?
We are not told but I imagine he was heavily involved in the fighting in the north.
There were a bunch of battles being fought around Middle Earth at the same time and I betcha Glorfindel was kicking ass in some of them.
Would have been hype ASF tho
The elves kind of didn't care. Remember, they can all just leave. There's the risk of death if they stay and fight, and literally no consequence to most of them if they leave. Elrond is literally one of the few elves that even remotely gives a crap about middle earth. And even then, he was content to have the forming of the fellowship be his final contribution before he left. He wasn't intending to help further then that, except his daughter was in love with Aragorn, and so he reluctantly sent his gifts to Aragorn, but he didn't mobilise an army. He did just enough to help out, but entirely in a way that didn't risk any of his people's lives or take too much effort. The only elves that went with the Grey Company were Aragorn's old ranger buddies, Aragorn's good friends for decades. Obviously, they care about defending middle earth, they've spent years with Aragorn fighting off dangers that threaten the peaceful regions such as the Shire. But there's only 31 members, and not all of them are elves. Simply put, Glorfindel just doesn't care. He has no attachment to any men or dwarves. If the realm of Lotholorien was truly threatened by Saruman, then I'm sure he'd have ridden south to help the Elves escape. But he was content to just defend the elf realms and then return West. He certainly was never going to agree to go on a suicide mission that was based purely on the hope that Frodo might succeed at the 12th hour, with zero information on how close he was to achieving his goal. There is just no way Glorfindel would have ever been at the black gates.
Yes, Glorfindel was sent back to help fight Sauron. But there's no rules or guidelines. Glorfindel can absolutely take that to mean "act as a last line of defence and help all the elves leave middle earth". By the time Lord of the Rings occurs, the elves have completely committed to sailing over the sea and leaving men to their fate. Elrond is considered kind of weird for caring about this conflict. When Glorfindel fought the first time around, it was for the survival of the elves and the entire world. But by the third age, the world is seperated and the elves can just bail. And they are completely happy for the most part to do so.
So why didn't Glorfindel help more? Because he doesn't care. It's not his business and he doesn't care. His suggestions for the ring are give it to Tom Bombadil, some dude he basically knows nothing about, but figures why the hell not, or throw it in the ocean. Glorfindel doesn't care what happens to the ring, his options are give it some weirdo or throw it away. Why would he be eager to go on a mission to destroy it?
If Glorfindel was asked by Frodo or Elrond, he probably would have agreed, but probably would have turned back by the time they reached Moria. The deal was only ever to go as far as any member personally wished, and I can't see him wanting to go into the mines, which he'd know as well as Gandalf were likely Goblin and Orc infested, with likelyhood of trolls and maybe worse. I imagine he'd think helping the fellowship reach Moria was service enough, and probably not want to risk a dangerous trek. Gandalf only wants to go through Moria because he knows they'll never be able to sneak through the gap of rohan now Sauruman is watching. Glorfindel or no, the fellowship could never fight an army of orcs by themselves. Gandalf and Glorfindel both know it's unlikely there's any dwarves left in Moria, and they both know there's been whispers of something more powerful then ordinary goblins and trolls. Gandalf takes the path as a last resort, the last option to save the mission, hoping his power combined with stealth and speed will let them scrape by. Glorfindel probably isn't going to be super excited to go into the death mines.
Tldr:
Our boy is so powerful he literally emits a spiritual light that, while unseen to mortals, is a literal beacon to the enemy. That he cant turn off.
"Oh wow, this super powerful elf is heading straight for us, i wonder what he is doing"
He would simply give away Frodo's position.
It's not just Peter Jackson's LotR's where Glorfindel gets snubbed (just so that Liv Tyler gets more screen time from what I heard), but also in Ralph Bakshi's animated 1978 version too. In that one its Legolas who saves Frodo from the Black Riders.
*shrug* That's because in any medium that doesn't have a way to really benefit from the wider legendarium, Glorfindel would just seem like a there-and-gone minor side character. He only even manages to earn his significance in the novel by way of the written medium's luxurious ability to take its time dwelling on details of lore: even before The Silmarillion was actually published, The Lord of the Rings still had the benefit of being able to reference the lore Tolkien had worked out behind the scenes, and the time and page-space to make such references stick.
Just the concept of elves in a general sense had already had a hundred times more build-up by the time Glorfindel arrived in the book, than it had in the film by the time Arwen or Legolas appeared in the Jackson or Bakshi adaptations. Arwen in the Peter Jackson film was literally the first introduction to elves in the theatrical release and practically still was in the extended edition, where all that appeared before her was a distant view of some passing migrants to the Grey Havens and a vague reference to them leaving Middle-earth.
If The Lord of the Rings were re-imagined as a long-form streaming series, on the other hand, it might be more feasible to get Glorfindel in there for a nice two- or three-episode appearance.
I remember hearing Tolkien actually stated he had originally thought of putting Glorifendel in the fellowship but realized he was too strong and could handle most anything that got thrown at the group so he decided not to.
A dm pc, in other words.
I’ve wondered this very question, since I first read LotR, back when I was a kid. Thank you for answering it.
You'd think Gandalf would shine just as much, but he seems to have a cloaking device.
The 5 Istari were prohibited from using their full power In mortal lands and thus would not appear as they would in the Blessed Immortal Lands.
To be honest, he kind of did; Saruman at least knew exactly where he was early on, when they were trying to cross the mountain.
I wouldnt even be surprised to learn, that it was Gandalfs presence that drew the attention of the Balrog in the first place. @@jermainerace4156
I believe you're thinking of Peter Jackson's Saruman. @@jermainerace4156
He did not shine until he returned as the White.
He was very good at remaining secretive, People knew he came and went, but nobody knew all he did.
As for Saruman, that's a movie only thing. In the book, it's the mountain itself beating the fellowship. (Or possibly a Maiar of the mountain, like the ones in the sea causing havoc on ships.)
Always felt that if the fellowship did have Glorfindel on their side. It would of been much more noticed by Sauron and his forces and he’d be much more of a liability than a asset. Since stealth was the better option then trying to force their way through Mordor. They just did not have the numbers and the costs and risks would be to great but most importantly they just didn’t have the time needed to muster a grand army since much of Gondor had already been infiltrated. Where glorfindel would of been an asset was marshaling the elven forces and assisting the Dúnedain and reaffirming alliances and providing a faint and distraction. Making himself look to be the most dangerous while giving the fellowship a way to remain unnoticed.
It's not even just that Glorfindel was essentially, the brightest walking lighthouse, that would have been the main problem, it's also the obviousness of him being in such a group. Gandalf was bad enough, add in the military leader of Gondor, a prince of Mirkwood (or not since he wouldn't be needed), and a dwarf from under the mountain shortly after threatening them, and then Glorfindel, one of the most famous elves, who fought and killed 1 of Morgoths most powerful assets and then was given life again cuz he was so great of an elf? No that is wayyyy too much importance and suspicious diversity of enemies to not send a regiment to capture or destroy, when you already know that your ring is in Rivendell and Glorfindel and Gandalf are both there as well. Better to send Glorfindel to cause trouble for the enemy elsewhere and draw some of the heat.
Well said! I hadn't considered how easily visible Glorfindel would have been to the enemy. Another great video!
I think a case can also be made that Gandalf sensed the fate of the Fellowship depended on them all being tested and showing their own valour, he himself could not make the task easier for them by using more of his power than was absolutely necessary, so he would not have wanted to involve another being of great power as well.
Glorfindel showing up to help the siege of Minas Tirith along with Rohan would have been good. It would have made the march on the Black Gates even more of a diversion bc Sauron would have been all over seeing him marching. Also, it would have shown him doing something.
I was wondering if you could do a video from the ring's point of view like you did for other characters.
Rob bud so pleased to see your channel explode!!
every view is well deserved.
long ago when you only had around 3k subs i did state audible needs to grab your talent for narrating, stil stand by it.
keep on rocking bro,
i got introduced to this world 26 years ago, and am still discovering decades later thanks to people like you.
Early on, you describe Glorfindel's return to Middle-Earth in the Second Age. Right after that is a recap of his role at the Battle of Fornost, and a mention that the northern kingdom of Arnor falls as part of the outcome. This was confusing to me at first. I was associating "second age" and "battle" and trying to fit Glorfindel into the war in Eriador or the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, but that didn't compute. And with reason! The Battle of Fornost was in the Third Age (T.A. 1975) The confusion here was my own doing; happily, I got to browse more Middle-Earth history straightening myself out.
Thanks for another wonderful video! :)
IIRC Tolkien contemplated having Glorfindel arrive before the Fall of Numenor, and he would have a large heroice role in the Last Alliance. Like so many things, it never got past the stage of vague notes.
I absolutely love the In Deep Geek title screen. Wonderful storytelling too. Subscribed!
While Sam is trying to get into the Tower of Cirith Ungol, he overhears the orcs talking amongst each other, saying that they think that some great elvish warrior has penetrated their defenses, noting that the war isn't going well, and that even the Witch King was killed. To these orcs, a hobbit skulking around with elvish weapons (such as Sting and the Phial of Galadriel), was enough to set the whole garrison into a panic.
And if they knew (or had soem inkling) that the likes of Glorfindel was still around, and would certainly be moving against their master...
I like the story progression aspect of this, it fits in very well into the world and the themes of the story. i think that it was smart to replace Glorfindel in the movies because the amount of nunace and explanation his character requires wouldn't have clicked for a large part of the audience and much like the eagles question, we'd have the glorfindel questions running around about it being a supposed plothole
Have you ever done a video about the dead marshes? Specifically in relation to the film version, that's the section I feel like I understand the least. I understand that it's a moment for Smeagol to help Frodo and prove he's trustworthy, but I don't understand why Frodo was compelled to fall into the water. Any deeper insight to that would be good.
I think he has but I’m not sure. However, Nerd of the Rings has a pretty in depth video on the subject (probably more than one) and he’s as thorough as In Deep Geek, so that might be helpful
I think it was primarily because he did not volunteer in the book. Maybe Tolkien thought he was too OP. But even still, glorfindel saved frodo at the bridge
He's so powerful that the Nazgul preferred to fight a magical tsunami than to face him, 9 to 1!
I had never liked this explanation, but the way you explained it makes more sense. Before, I had only ever heard that "he would stand out because he's powerful". It makes a lot more sense when you explain that he stands out because he literally shines to those who can see the spirit world. However, I will still only accept this explanation if Gandalf is able to cover up his own shining light (because surely he would shine as well), while Glorfindel is unable to hide himself.
On a lighter note, I've always thought it would be funny if Glorfindel went with them and fought the Balrog instead of Gandalf. As the Balrog falls, it grabs Glorfindel's hair and pulls him down with him, and Glorfindel yells, "Not agaaaaaaiiiinnnnn......"
It's established Maia can completely disguise themselves. Saruman and Sauron are both noted to do it, both spiritually and physically. Gandalf even remarks that Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli may have seen Saruman in the forest, and even Gandalf before he became the White probably could not have detected Saruman if he chose to be disguised.
I think the best explanation though is that Glorfindel just doesn't care. When presented with what to do with the ring, his answers are either to give it to the weird dude who lives on the river that I've kind of heard about and Frodo says isn't effected by the ring, sounds legit to me, or throw it in the ocean and be done with it, whatever, who cares. If your options are give it to the first random dude that gets brought up or go and throw it away, then you probably aren't going to be super into the idea of a super dangerous mission to go and destroy it, when you've already shown you don't care about it. Glorfindel can just leave middle earth as can all the elves, and go over the sea, and Sauron will literally never be able to touch them. The elves have zero real consequences to leaving. Elrond only cares because he loves Rivendell and is probably the most sympathetic elf to men. And he's explicitly seen as a little weird for caring so much by the other elves, and all he does is organise travelling companions for Frodo and send Aragorn a couple gifts. And that's considered weirdly invested for an elf. Glorfindel absolutely just gives zero shits about the quest to destroy the ring.
Well done, one of your best videos. And I would say the Weathertop scene was a highlight of the films. Bloody terrifying first time through on the big screen.
Glorfindel could have just flown the ring to Mount Doom on eagleback by himself!
Hee hee like the fan-fic/HISHE version in which Gandalf saying "Fly you fools" was meant literally, as in "Take the eagles over Mt. Doom and just drop it in!'
Glorfindel if he saw Durins bane:
“Aw shit here we go again”
Love your content Robert and Co!
It is true that Glorfindel's power wasn't needed, but having the wisdom of a 1st Age Elf in the fellowship may have been important, and certainly having a Balrog killer would have come in very handy in Moria, so despite what Tolkien might have said, there are reasons why Glorfiendel would have been a good choice. What I think is much more likely is that Tolkien already had the character of Gandalf the White in mind which means Gandalf had to fight the Balrog, and that he wanted Aragorn to be the leader of the Fellowship in the first book which when placed together, really doesn't leave a lot of room for Glorfidenel.
I wonder if someone as powerful as Glorfindel was would be worried about being tempted by the ring?
The ring preys off weakness, whispering lies and promises of power. I don't think he would succumb too it , he'd probably be less tempted than Gladriel
Of course. Its temptation was greatest to the very powerful. Remember Gandalf's reaction when Frodo offered him the Ring at Bag End.
Since he and Galadriel were of the firstborn I think the temptation would've been similar.
@@barbiedahldoesn't galadriel have parents?
@@lomiification Yes. Firstborn in this case refers to the Elves as they were the firstborn of the Children of Iluvatar. Galadriel was not of the very 1st generation of Elves; she was the daughter of Finarfin and Eärwen, a Teleri princess.
I think it is simpler: The Valar would not have allowed it. He was send to Middle-Earth like the Istari and like them he surely had restrictions put on him what he was allowed to do and what not.
That doesn't add up. Why would Gandalf be allowed to but Glorfindel not?
@@laurie1183 It does add up ... when Glorfindel was, lets say, there to protect Rivendell and/or Elrond and Gandalfs mission clearly is to help bring Sauron down then it all adds up quite nicely
@@themattschulz3984 Elrond is the rightful High King. He doesn't take up the title though because they have a tendency to meet bad ends and he doesn't want to rule all of Elvenkind. Glorfindel is bound to serve him that's true enough. But there's no canonical reason for Glorfindel not to go. Even Tolkien admits it. He just doesn't want him to overshadow everyone else so he doesn't go.
It's one of the few problems with the plot in the Lord of the Rings. The worst being Tolkien pulling a prophecy out of his butt regarding Aragorn and some ghosts.
Really excellent, thank you.
3:52 - We needed Arnold Glorfindel in FotR!
Very good! Thanks for sharing your insights around this.
That is exactly what I "guessed" when I saw your video title here. You say they could sense him from a mile away -- I would bet that Sauron could sense Glorfindel's presence from further away than that at least in many circumstances. Kind of like traveling with a sign that flashes "here we are" in neon in the unseen world.
Elrond: "No, that's too OP, plz nerf".
Having Glorfindel in The Fellowship would be akin to having a powerful beam of light stretching up towards the sky screaming "Hey everyone! We're RIGHT HERE!!" ever step of the way. Sure the enemies would've been very wary of Glorfindel's powerful aura, but likewise, he's basically a walking magnet pointing everyone good or bad right where he is. Sure he'd be a huge asset in a fight, but then he'd mop the floor of basically everything leaving none of the other members of The Fellowship a reason to be in it, and from a storytelling point, it'd wouldn't be very interesting to read, as well as leaving everyone with nothing to do, no chance for developing those characters.
His best usage might've been as a misdirection decoy to draw the majority of the enemies AWAY from The Fellowship so they'd have a higher chance of success, much like near the end when Aragorn decided to pull a last ditch assault at The Black Gates to draw the armies of Mordor away to a single point in hopes that the missing Hobbits might slip through elsewhere.
Glorfindel to Gandalf when the Balrog appeared. " Bro... I got this"
I loved how in the Movie Mars with MattDamon that Project Elrond had the head of NASA say I want to be Glorfindel :)) He couldn't go..the creatures of Sauron would have seen his fea blazing like a sun at his coming.
Here's another issue (or two) I can think of if Glorfindel had joined. Who would he have replaced? Most likely either Merry or Pippin as we already know there's no way Sam was going to leave Frodo's side. And then that would mean with two Humans, two Elves the Dwarves would demand two of their people to join, which might have seen Gloin go off on the mission. So we'd have 1 Wizard, Two Men, Two Elves, Two Dwarves, Two Hobbits in the fellowship, and probably Merry and Pippin sneaking off after them.
That would certainly make the Balrog attack far more interesting. Could he and Gandalf take it down together? Would Gandalf still have fallen or would Glorfindel died a second time? And having Gimli and Gloin as a father son duo would make the scenes in Moria even more intense when they came upon certain graves. Could Gloin have gone crazy with grief and gone off at the Orcs and Goblins and Balrog himself before anyone could stop him?
With all that said, given how Glorfindel would show up to the enemy due to his own great power, I do wonder if he was maybe used as a distraction to confuse Sauron by having him approach other strongholds while the Fellowship walked into Mordor.
I recall reading an interview with Christopher Tolkien many many years ago. Christopher mentioned that Glorfindel was like a beacon in the world; that wherever he went it was like a glowing spot on a map. Pretty hard to sneak anywhere when someone is literally a GPS dot on the bad guys maps.
As usual, this is a great video with excellent analysis in depth about LOTR :). I agree, I think Glorfindel was powerful but was too prominent to be unnoticed by Sauron.
All you've done is convince me that they should've split up the Hobbits and had Glorfindel lead a decoy fellowship.
The real reason is that Glorfindel was so powerful that LOTR would have happily finished in 30 pages. It wouldn't have provided a literary challenge.
Just picture Glorfindel and Gandalf riding on giant eagles with Frodo carrying the ring to mount doom ^^
I mean Saurons airforce are mostly the Nazgul and they wouldnt fare too well against those two.
Well done!
"you are not who we are looking for, you are overqualified" -porbably Gandalf
What an excellent video, this is a great explanation for the issue of glorfindel and the fellowship. Cheers.
Glorfindel being present would be like having a tank leading a commando mission
Makes me wonder how Gandalf is viewed in the spiritual world, cause although he is reduced his presence or appearance he would still be very powerful and different from most others as a Maia and I believe fairly noticeable. Or did the Valar give him a spiritual disguise along with a physical one?
I always got the impression that Gandalf limited himself internalizing his power, perhaps earning the designation "The Gray" as he was likely unnoticed compared to the others of his order in the spirit realm. This attitude that turned out to be a wise council for the Fellowship, was actually Gandalf's MO in all things: Go unnoticed, move behind the scenes.
When he became "The White" it was "weapons hot" and nothing about his attitude resembled his former furtiveness but speed and action in all things. MHO
Also, the temptation of the Ring was ever present. As Gandalf said, the more powerful you are, the greater the temptation. By putting the Ring in close proximity to Glorfindel for a significant period of time would increase the risk of temptation.
One of the reasons why the Ring was never a temptation to most of the Fellowship was their relatively less powerful nature. Admittedly, Gandalf and Aragorn were powerful spiritually, but the rest were less so. At best, Legolas, being an elf, had some spiritual power, but as a Sindar Elf who never made it to the Blessed Lands and was possibly born in the 2nd or 3rd Age, his spiritual power would have been much lower than ones like Glorfindel or Galadriel.
Even then, the constant threat of temptation was high. Boromir, who was part Numenorean and, possibly, part-Elven through his mother, who was a Princess of Dol Amroth, fell to the temptation. Bluntly, who could have stopped Glorfindel if he decided to take the Ring for himself?
Glorfindel showing up at Helms Deep would’ve been the move 🤣 Just solos all the orcs by himself and when Gandalf arrives he’s like wtf!?
It's kinda like sneaking through a dark warehouse with a lit spotlight and a constantly-blowing air horn
Excellent analysis. true!
It is also important to note that while Frodo was walking to Mordor, there was a whole world war going on in Middle Earth. There were battles not only in Gondor and Rohan, but everywhere else as well. Glorfindel would have been more useful to defend the few remaining elvish strongholds.
A very interesting analysis, thank you.
This seems to illustrate the very meaning and theme of TLOTR. It is the smallest things, good things, simple things that can defeat huge evil.
"Balrog? Oh, you've GOT to be kidding me!"
Even in this video there's no consistency in how his name is pronounced, specifically whether the stress goes on the first or second syllable.
I think the conclusion is correct: you don't send the most recognizable (to the enemy) elf on a stealth mission.
Great video and analysis as always. It would have still been pretty cool to see Glorfindel in the films, but I can understand why Jackson went with Arwen.
It never had occured to me that the Glorfindel of Gondolin is indeed the same person as the Glorfindel of Rivendell. I had always thought Galadriel was the last elf left in Middle Earth who had come to Aman at the time of the two trees.
Been binge watching all your videos recently ❤
You can see Glorfindel's aura with a pair of 3d spectacles.
another excellent video! thanks!
This was so good! Now I have to find someone to impress with this new knowledge.
Spot on.
Glorfindel would literally be too much of a good thing for the mission.
I hadn't ever thought about that before, but it makes perfect sense.
1:45 - "Alas, 'tis Glorfindel and the Balrog" = "Shaka, when the walls fell. Darmok on the ocean."
I guess part of the mission is also to unite the forces of men, as a war is inevitable on more than one front. I don't know much about Glorfindel, but maybe Legolas is the more diplomatic choice.
Never thought of this! Interesting video
"Always bring the machinegun...always." - Guns Up, J.M. Clark
love it... great presentation.... we were robbed in the movies of this ....
Outstanding video. There are times when I wish Tolkien's writings were more modern, more tightly outlined. A minor subplot with Glorfindel being used as a decoy would be fascinating. Similar to how Patton was stationed at Calais prior to the Normandy invasion.
More or less as Aragorn and Gandalf eventually did in the end.
That one ep of star trek: “GLORFINDEL, WHEN THE BALROG CAME”
What's fascinating about this is it demonstrates that Frodo and Sam splitting off from the fellowship when they did was the right call. When Gandalf the white appeared fresh from the undying lands he would've shown like Glorfindel to the enemy (barring some special attribute Eru Illuvitar gave him that wasn't mentioned). No wonder Saron was so confused.
Great video, I did wonder this, good explanation
I was literally wondering this like 2 days ago as I watched one of your videos about the Witch King.
Thanks for the video, it was very good
The Fellowship could be left at any moment (as Boromir and Aragorn originally intended to do when they reached Minas Tirith), so Glorfindel being named to it would not have bound him to go all the way to Mordor. Still, if the Dunland birds had spied Glorfindel, enemies would surely have made guesses, and Elrond and Gandalf likely foresaw such a calamity.
Still...it would have been interesting to see Glorfindel have a bigger part through a separate mission (him shooting the winged wraith on the Anduin would have been awesome. Could we have a video on that event, Robert? It truly made Legolas an even bigger badass!)
I played LOTR Battle for Middle Earth. In there, he and Gloin went on missions outside of the fellowship.
literally just had this convo with a friend