Who Wrote the Legendarium? (in-world)
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- Опубликовано: 7 май 2023
- In Deep Geek - Insight and intelligent discussion on Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, The Witcher and more.
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Respect for passing up the opportunity for the most clickbait title ever “Who ACTUALLY wrote the lord of the rings?”
Tolkein's own death during his writing of the Silmarillion feels as though it is part of the lore - that his own mortality fits into the vast ages and generations he recorded. Kind of beautiful in a way.
My impression was that Bilbo wrote The Hobbit first, compiled The Silmarillion while he was reading in Rivendell, then Frodo structured and wrote out The Lord of the Rings, with contributions from Sam, Merry and Pippin. Additional accounts like material that formed The Unfinished Tales may have been drawn from correspondence from Gandalf drawing on his knowledge of the lore of the Elves and Gondor.
But then we assume rivendell would have the books from which the Silmarillion comes. Rivendell is described in the Hobbit like a modest collection of houses, not a great city nor a nation of elves. There did was knowledge and power there, but nothing that ancient. Though Elrond certainly would have known of some of the later events and perhaps even had some memoirs. Doesn't explain the older stuff though.
@@plzletmebefrank There are times when the Hobbit's origins as a children's story clashes with its description elsewhere. At numerous times in the 2nd and 3rd Ages, it is used as a place where armies gather and/or are sent from. So, I think it is far more than just a small town. Elrond was a loremaster and described Rivendell as a place of peace and learning. I think it was first and foremost a place where great knowledge was gathered and kept and that only Minas Tirith rivaled it as a library for knowledge of the past.
@@plzletmebefrank What books, scrolls and tomes were salvaged from Eregion's downfall were problably a fraction of Elves' history up to that point. Rivendell was founded in part by Elrond as a refuge for the Elves west of the Misty Mountains and as a repository of writings and lore.
Even solely taking its description in The Hobbit by itself, Tolkien makes it clear that the settlement is a place of knowledge and enlightenment. Elrond deciphers and translates the Moon runes on the map to Erebor, something no Dwarf was able to prior, suggesting that at their most insightful and intelligent the Elves had an understanding of other cultures beside their own history.
@@plzletmebefrank Do you think a small place can't have libraries?
@@plzletmebefrankall you need is one single house for a library. True, Rivendell isn’t exactly a thriving elven city, but it is a fortress, nevertheless. Also, Elrond is well-known as a distinguished lore master. In the books, Bilbo translates certain elven takes into his own and even creates a poem about Earendil, a prominent figure in elven history and the Silmarillion. It’s quite obvious that, albeit comparatively small, Rivendell is not only a fortress, but also a place of knowledge.
I felt almost scholarly watching this video. The level of research and detail is fascinating and inspiring. You do Tolkien a great respect in the work that you do. Thank you for such enjoyable content
This video explained beautifully what is probably in the top three reasons why I love Tolkien's world so much (along with the thematic work and the characters): how he made his work truly feel and be, for all intensive purposes, a mythology/history. And like all history/mythology, there are plenty of mysteries, differing accounts of how the events went down, biases, and so on. I find it humbling in a way of Tolkien wanting us to view his works not merly his own but rather the efforts of many people from a time long past, with him merely being a translator of the work! :)
Fun Fact: The Lost Road in which Elfwine appears was part of an agreement that Tolkien made with C.S. Lewis, that one would write a story about Time and the other would write about Space. Lewis got Space while Tolkien got Time. C.S. Lewis actually finished his contribution, and the main character in his Space Trilogy is "Elfwine," that is, Dr. Elwin Ransom, a philologist like Tolkien who knew languages very well to translate. In the third book, "That Hideous Strength," Lewis even mentions Numenor (though misspelled "Numinor" as Tolkien hadn't then printed even the Lord of the Rings and Lewis only had heard it spoken when Tolkien read it in Inklings meetings). Lewis's Space Trilogy takes place in the same world has Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, so if you want to meet Elfwine, read about him in C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy and Tolkien's unfinished story "The Lost Road".
That’s fascinating. I had no idea “That Hideous Strength” took place in the same world. Imagine going to a pub and some of the greatest authors ever are just casually chatting about their nascent works over a smoke and a drink!
Oh no... I have a game where I take a drink every time you say "legendarium" in LotR videos and I don't think I'm gonna make it through this one.
Tolkien was such an odd author, so different in his approach from any other author I have grown to love, which is why I listen to his work every night without fail. He didn't just write a fantastical story, he wrote a believable fantastical story, filled with flawed characters overcoming their weaknesses to come together and help each other. And he put in an unlikely hero in Sam who, God blass him, tries so hard to keep it together. It's relatable, it's joyous, and it's relevant. I love the feeling Tolkien gave to the story by making it seem like he was translating the works and it had come to him somehow. It is beautiful, it keeps the magic of that world alive. And tonight, I'm going back there again
From my lit classes, Red Book of Westmarch immediately struck me as an analog of the White Book of Rhyddarch which UK people might recognize as the Welsh compilation of the Mabinogion which has, I think, the first appearance of King Arthur in writing. Tolkien would have been teaching this stuff at Oxford.
Or the White book of Hengist. Or the Black book of Caermarthan?
@@stephenbarrett8861 exactly (but Hergest I think?).
@@Bedwyr7 quite possibly. It’s been a while.
The way he tells the story with different writers allows him to change stories and be flexible with how he tells them while still keeping in-universe. It also adds to its mythic qualities.
I love how deep the lore goes with the in-universe historiography, with tolkien even writing about how he even had to translate the names of the characters, explaining how why the hobbits seem to have English names. Like how Sam's real name was Ban, short for Banazîr (translated to Samwise back down to Sam)
Tolkien wasn't lying about any of it really. He did have to translate those names so the name fit the character and visa versa.
@@PleaseNThankYou That's what I love the most about Lord of the Rings, all of the languages feel like actual languages that were spoken in our past because Tolkien was a linguistics professor and he knew a great deal about the evolution of and science behind languages
The amount of research that goes into these is impressive to me! This will be one I listen to several times over.
Omissions and conflicting versions are indeed the best supports for stories like these.
Wonderful work here, Robert.
This is such an awesome concept. I have always loved how Tolkien created his world as a third-party point of view. That simple concept allowed for just about any misconceptions and "non canon.".
Which allows unfortunately for fanfic shite like Amazon's Rings of Power to come about.....
I just love that Tolkien kept up the idea that he was translating/discovering these documents, books and tales even whilst replying to reader's letters.
We know that in Tolkien's works that Hobbits have survived to the modern day and that Tolkien knew about this. So a way in which Tolkien could have come by a copy of the Red Book of Westmarch is that perhaps he was one of the few Men modern Hobbits befriended, and perhaps knowing he was a scholarly fellow, they gifted Tolkien a copy the Red Book.
Hi Robert. I love the way you’ve examined the events of LotR from various participants’ points of view, and speculated on what might have occurred if something had happened differently. But what about the periods of time when nothing was happening, at least from the perspective of members of the fellowship? I’ve always thought that they spent an inordinate amount of time getting ready to leave Rivendell after the Council had decided on their course of action. And then they spent about a month in Lothlorien. That seems a long time when events were running apace in the world around them. If they had started out from Rivendell sooner, or spent less time in recovery after Moria, might they not have avoided the orcs at Amon Hen? And what else might have happened? I’d love it if you could comment. Cheers from Ottawa, Steve.
One of my favorite things about LOTR is how it's made to be a fantastical origin of the real world. It really adds to the bittersweetness of the story, knowing all of this was doomed to fade away and be replaced by a different world
This is perhaps the most unique and interesting Tolkien content I've ever seen. I don't think anyone else online has tackled the subject, and l am glad that it now has been tackled. The fact that this writing style has been used to great effect by other modern masters like Herbert and Danielewski since Tolkien's time is just an additional testament to how visionary Tolkien truly was.
There's a channel called Ælfwine's Road which has covered at least the development of the Ælfwine concept before in detail, but I'd not heard anything about it before then
My understanding before watching the video is Bilbo authored his book that JRR translated into The Hobbit. Frodo complied The Hobbit along with his content to make The Lord of the Rings. Bilbo took sources from Hobbit history and complied it along with Elven history in Rivendell thst recorded pretty much everything. Sam, Merry, Pippen each contributed there bits to the book and later scholars from Gondor added their histories.
I mean, on a basic level, pretty much.
Tolkien did not have to go as hard as he did, but we’re all grateful for it nonetheless
Excellent summary. When I began watching this video, I was worried that the various writers, compilers, and translators mentioned in Tolkien’s History of Middle Earth series would not be mentioned (since Christopher Tolkien downplayed their importance).
* But the video went back to JRR Tolkien’s original conception of an actual mythology with various contributors.
This approach gives Tolkien’s writing their depth of origin with the premise that we are reading manuscripts which were discovered, something ancient, which by chance, was preserved through ages of time.
I have always wondered who wrote the text that became The Lord of the Rings-thank you for clarifying this for me.
3:24
3:32
3:42
4:24
4:33
4:54 the Smials, at last!
12:12
14:10 Or rather, a HISTORY for England, as he wished it to be told.
Fabulous! Details no one else has yet covered! 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 The GENEALOGIES!
thx
Tolkien definitely gave his books life!
I agree, he succeeded in creating a magnificent mythology. Next to various religions, the next-most(arguably) thing used in fiction and so on happens to be of his works, or derivatives. I would go so far as to say that it's more referenced than traditional mythologies.
Haha Tolkien came up with the idea of inconsistencies in his text being due to in-world limitations of texts and translations well before the Games Workshop used a similar creative excuse for inconsistencies in their Warhammer 40K lore.
Not much to say, but thank you for tackling this. It made plain much that I had forgotten, so I'm grateful for the information.
I first read these books in the late 60s, early 70s, and scoured my Shire :-) for all the info available about Tolkien's writings. I think it's wonderful that he wanted to create a mythology for England (since these islands had been invaded multiple times, with each invader wiping out a little bit more of our history in the process. In fact, my ancestors were some of the invaders.)
I think that us losing our native mythologies (and the invaders moving away from their native lands and myths) are the reasons we "consume" other cultures, resulting an a mish-mash of conflicting mythologies and lost heritage. These cultural wounds seem to be impossible to repair.
Bravo Robert!
I was just thinking about this thinking that it would have been cool if the style and tone of the various parts were written in the voice of the authors.
This could make my head explode!!!🤯
This was awesome. A brilliant breakdown. Thanks so much Robert
Tolkien was a philologist and a scholar of old and middle english, and he drew inspiration from many sources, including the old norse "Edda," the "Völsunga Saga," and the old english epic "Beowulf(even tho its set in Scandinavia, if you have not; watch the "Beowulf" movie from 2007)." These sources contain elements of Germanic mythology and legends, for instance; the names of the dwarves in "the Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings" (like Thorin, Fili, Kili, and others) were taken directly from "Edda,". The name Gandalf comes from the same source, meaning "wand-elf" or "staff-elf" in old Norse. The character of Eärendil, who plays a pivotal role in Tolkien's legendarium, was inspired by a line from the old English poem "Crist I," which mentions "éarendel" as a character or symbol of hope. I suppose this highlights how hope is often at the core of many myths. Good info though, keep it up!"
On the matter of the straight road, Valinor in the legendarium exists ahead of Arda (Earth) in its orbit. In 2010 Earth's first trojan was discovered orbiting the L4 Langrangian point which is ahead of Earth's orbit, i.e. Into The West. For obvious reasons I suggested it be named Valinor. It's called 2010TK7 to my eternal disappointment.
Brilliant video as always
Worthy of placement in my YT M.E. hx file. Thank you.
That’s a really cool backstory! And it’s interesting viewing the stories in this way bit different but exciting and awesome! :-) thank you so much for sharing.
Loved this video!
Incredible video!
Thanks for this. I really enjoy your analysis and discussions.
Well done.
very well done sir
I'd like to see a map of Middle Earth that's been reworked to follow the rules of plate tectonics. As it didn't become prominent until decades after much of the story was written
I love your content, your voice is perfect for the style too
I wonder how far the in-universe text aspect of Tolkien’s writings truly work. I guess we would have to attribute moments in the texts which none of the author characters could be aware of to in-universe creative license? An example that immediately jumps to mind for me is the passage of a fox stumbling across Frodo&co asleep in Fellowship, an event that no one could have known in-universe
how would an in-universe creative license know about about those things?
You are a master of your craft
Tolkien was such a language geek. His reckoning of the primary source would inform how the story was written. It makes the narrator perhaps unreliable when reporting events that the primary was not directly witness. I think of this often when considering Tolkien canon under adaptation. Can any of it be absolutely inflexible?
So you’re telling me my idol Tolkien? He didn’t write anything he just bet up a supercentenarian hobbit and stole his life’s work?. I … I don’t know what to do with this information.
Feels like the Biblical Tale..... Very mythological ❤
Brilliant… so I wonder if Eru, although the non interventionist creator of Arda still looks down on his creation and is pleased with the recounting of this history of Aman, Númenor and Middle Earth in this seventh age?
He is not completely non-interventionist. Most notably, when Ar-Pharazon the Golden sailed from Numenor to Aman, Eru, at the bidding of Manwë, destroyed the whole mini-continent of Numenor. I think Eru still watches the history of Arda with interest, but i don't think he is pleased with steam engines, modern industry and society, or with the many wars we keep waging. But how he might eventually sort out the mess of his own creation has not yet been revealed.
Nicely done. The genius wasn't the story (excellent though that is), it was the meta-story of the provenance of mythology.
Elfwine is a modified copy of Eärendil (or perhaps Earendel) the Seafarer that originally was meant to give us the information about the elves and Valinor (or Alfheim). Since Eärendil was successively modified to become the messenger from Middle Earth to Valinor, and then the God of the Morning/Evening Star, a replacement was needed to fulfill the role of informer to the Anglosaxons.
I think that bilbo also wrote the first part of the lotr up to them meeting in Rivendell
Tolkien is such a unique author
You know, I have read The Lord of the Rings many times and it never occurred to me that it was Frodo's account 🤔
Tolkien might have been a little too much of an academic...
C
Thnx❤
It was obviously written by Tom Bombadil.
As a bad crappy inventor of my own world, I know what Tolkien was doing: he was fixing the bugs, he was trying to make the whole story much more realistic.
It’s never said who exactly made the first copy of the Red Book which Pippin then brought to Gondor as the “Thain’s Book,” but since the book is so huge, I like to think it was a collaborative effort among all of Sam’s children, each of them copying a few chapters. Elanor probably did the most because Tolkien’s planned epilogue shows she had a keen interest in the story, and of course she later became the book’s guardian. Since her sister Goldilocks married Pippin’s son Faramir, they probably did a huge amount of the work as well. It’s also a headcanon of mine that Eowyn and Faramir’s son Elboron married one of Aragorn and Arwen’s daughters, and their son was Barahir; it would explain why Faramir’s grandson would want to write the “Tale of Aragorn and Arwen,” if he was also a descendant of theirs.
Great video :) I have a question for you that's unrelated though: was the encounter with the Balrog in Moria inevitable for the Fellowship? Or could they have slipped past it if they were more stealthy? Would love to know
I think they could have. For example, Gollum roamed Moria in various ways and places between Bilbo's and Frodo's voyage and had no trouble with the Balrog. Hobbits, rangers, wood elves and wizards (Istari) in general were capable of similar levels of stealth as Gollum and were usually able not to be seen when they did not want to. Dwarves certainly felt at home in caves, so it would probably have worked fine for Gimli, too. The least stealthy of the company was likely Boromir, but i deem him still good enough to have a chance.
Then again, it clearly wasn't easy. Even Gandald wasn't quite sure where exactly to go and wasn't sure where they were when they reached the first great hall near the East side of Moria. Stealth becomes much harder when you are lost and have to search for your way. Besides, they had no clear idea what they had to hide from - sure, the presence of orcs was likely, but i don't think even Gandalf expected a balrog. And finally, sneaking through would be much easier for Gollum than for Gandalf. The balrog would have no interest whatsoever in Gollum (as opposed to Nazgul, no matter whether he carried a ring or not), and not even much interest in men or dwarves. But the balrog would almost certainly sense the presence of Gandalf's great power from miles away, even it it did not hear or see him, because Gandalf and the balrog were akin - both were semi-angelic, mostly spiritual and less physical beings that had existed before the world: Maiar. The balrog would also sense the presence of a Noldorin elf (like Galadriel or Elrond or Glorfindel or Arwen) in the same spiritual, non-physical way as it would sense the presense of Gandalf - yet none of the High Elves was with the party. The balrog might even, more weakly, sense the presence of Legolas, even though as a wood elf, he is spiritually less powerful than the High (Noldorin) elves. Balrogs hate elves and regard them as a serious threat, so sensing Legolas, the Balrog would likely go and investigate, while he would likely not bother about Aragorn, Boromir or Gimli, let alone the hobbits.
So yes, with a lot of luck, they might have sneaked through. Only, they didn't. Eru Iluvater inspired the Ainur to sing the song otherwise.
My theory is that while Durin's Bane decided to leave Balin's colony of Dwarves to the orcs and trolls to handle but came out when the fellowship came through was that he sensed the presence of another Maia, Gandalf.
@@IngoSchwarze What a thoughtful response, thank you :)
I have always thought much of it was Bilbo's "Translations from the Elvish"
Well that was quite beautiful. A question: do Men return to take part in the great battle at the end (Dagor Dagorlath?) or does the "blessing" of mortality save us from having to endure that, and its aftermath ?
Turin Turambar is the only Man named in the Prophecy and he is accounted amongst the Sons of the Valar.
Maybe the person who wrote the Legendarium was all the friends we made along the way. 🤔
Elrond could be the one to write the silmarilion for the first and second ages. As for the valian to the beginning of the first ages, it's probably Gandalf. My opinion though.
Frodo really was a much faster writer than Bilbo, huh?
Call me pedantic, but at 2:42 you have: "but most of it was written in Frodo's flowing script." That should be "*firm* flowing script."
We just assume that it happened
But no one else was in the room where it happened
Whoever wrote the books, I know not
All I know is where it is written; in my mind, on my life and in my heart ❤️
'herb lord'
Quite surprising that an Anglo-Saxon from our world accidentally found Valinor of all places!
...and one whose Old English name, Ælfwine, by incredible stroke of luck, translates to "elf-friend". You can't make it up xD
@@waelisc clearly Tolkien did, and that’s what we love about him!
😊😊👍
I am Susan fanfiction about the end, people, and I wanted to know if there is actually an interest being named deep throat. Of course, the same section I’ve seen it’s from Alvin home, reunification of the entrance mow.
... What?
Chat GPT is really coming on leaps and bounds 😂
IDG!!!!!
Who wrote the legendarium? It definitely wasn't Amazon Prime that's for sure!!
JOIN us every THURSDAY @IDG LIVE here on RUclips for the weekly LIVESTREAM at (5:00pm EST)!!!
I love how everybody thinks all this is FICTIONAL... ;)
So just like the Bible?
🌝
Sorry, but I can't help but keep hitting the Left Arrow on my PC's keyboard... "Who wrote The Hobbit...Who wrote The Hobbit...Who wrote The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings..." (wash, rinse, and repeat) It works out perfectly if you can get the rhythm right. 😎🤘☮
Pro tip: If you hit the Left Arrow on a PC keyboard (if that's what you're watching this on) right when the last "T" of "the hobbit" is spoken, you're doing great! Then let the third playthrough go to the end of "Lord of the Rings" and then smash that Left Arrow button. It's a catchy rhythm, although I'm not quite sure if you could dance to it. It might need some extra help... 😜
Hitting the "0" key also works. I'm such a freak. 😜
this is some ET shii
In other words: the tales that we read, come from biased authors, (elves may have a great memory, but everybody is biased in my opinion) were subject to editing and translation (and thereby translation mistakes). Which brings me to the following conclusion: what we see in adaptations may be as true as what we read in the books. Or truer, or false. We cannot know what "really" happened at certain points in time. On that note, the critique of some purists "But this is not what happened" when talking about adaptations, is just futile. Because we are talking about mythology, which is something that many people fail to understand and comprehend.
A video from "Hello future me" came to a similar conclusion, have you watched it? And if so, what are your thoughts? :)
It is something that so many fans of fantasy, including 'space fantasy like "Star Wars", love to forget when they cry out that something is, or is not, "canon" and look at a publisher or author for confirmation. When "in-universe" there is no fixed canon, when in-universe characters edit, rewrite, criticize and annotate these stories, and hence do not necessarily agree on "a single version of truth", fans should be far more relaxed about reinterpretations, rewrites and edits and annotations out-of-universe. "Canonizing" is not the creative and appreciative act some seem to think it is, it is very much the explicit silencing of "others". When canonizing is done 'successfully', as in Christianty's, Islamic, or Judaism's legendarium, it is sometimes only through archaeology, rather than through writing, that only ages later do we manage to recover some of the silenced voices. And almost invariably, instead of diminishing the canonized texts, these non-canon recoveries add context to the texts we already had and knew so well, and in some cases these recoveries illustrate why indeed certain texts are superior to others in numerous ways.
Toiken was skeptical of his own Christian religion! He mocks it in the end as a book passed down threw generations of here-say!