PROTOSS deleted units - ruclips.net/video/TlqBhNw_RRU/видео.html ZERG deleted units - ruclips.net/video/f66w6JXQS1c/видео.html Timecodes: 00:00 Units that never made it to the ladder 00:25 Unit №1 01:19 Unit №2 02:23 Unit №3 03:02 Unit №4 04:22 Unit №5
I know that HERCs would have been a weird unit with a very specific use, but man even that one clip shows the potential for amazing micro with the HERC
I actually wish HERC weren't removed. They probably should have been relegated to higher tech or their cost increased. They were really cool as a concept.
Actually having reaper and Herc is a deadly dou because if what I see that they can grapple friendly ground units they can basically meat shields for reaper with there +1 armor and the reaper having range (with no anti air capabilities) they can decimate any enemy economy if not protected.
The Warhound is fun to use. I wish there were more campaigns with them. The Herc just has hilarious voice lines and was used once in Covert Ops. I hope to see these units in an expansion of some sort
Even if they didn't make it into multiplayer, wish more of these units were useable in the campaigns, or even trainable (after unlocking them). Sure multiplayer it wasn't balanced at all, but in the campaigns you can make even stuff that'd normally be *busted* balanced by comparison.
The warhound was a very stupid unit. It came with auto missiles too I believe, which was even more stupid. It made it into a big marauder that just auto cast missile to something near by. The purpose with the warhound was to make Mech viable but it just turned Mech into a boring mass warhound hellion. Basically any combination of Warhound would just revolve around a slow moving A-move composition. Eventually they gave up. The fact that the warhound even made it to beta baffled me at the time. The warhound just had zero potential to be interesting. It added nothing to any match up.
Void Rays beat Warhounds only because Warhounds couldnt shoot up. Anything on the ground lost to Warhounds though at equal cost (even things that were supposed to counter them) except for Banelings and properly-placed, already set Siege Tanks (caught out of position/unsieged though, and they're screwed). Pretty much the only way to beat them at critical mass (which didnt take *that* many) was to go air
@@BroadwayRonMexico Nope, Voidrays would lose anytime. The Warhound's haywire missiles would shred voidrays. Sure they couldn't shoot up with their auto attack, but they could still shoot the missiles
@@theunholyadventurer2376 Haywire Missiles can only be used on what the Warhound is presently attacking. Because the Warhound can't shoot up, the Haywire Missiles can't either. If you don't believe me, there are map mods (ones you don't even need to download separately) that let you build Warhounds and other campaign units in a melee so you can test them out
@@AnMCommback in wol, you could just use the mothership vortex hability to make all units come.out in clumps, so if you threw like 7 archons there and you could literally delete any army
For some reason I am 100% sure that HERCs were available in multiplayer for some time And I remember playing them Yet liquipedia says that it wasn't playable Were they available or my memory lies to me? And yeah, HERC grapple is just so funny I love it and wish a unit with it to appear
Liquipedia is right, they weren't in the lige game at all. But if you were in the lucky ones to get into beta in 2014-2015 before release of LOTV. You might have been able to use them on the ladder, as well as using the old versions of the disruptor.
Love this. Looking forward to the other races. You should make one on the abilities that were removed too because there's a lot of interesting ones for each race.
Maybe the Zerg cabal is indeed true, after all... Because when Terran gets OP units in the game, they are removed, but add some Swarm Hosts and make every match a turtle fest and it's a-ok
This isn't exactly about units, but one aspect of game design that I really wish made it into the game was Turning Speed. I remember seeing gameplay of a beta version of Starcraft, and one big game mechanic that would have been important to micro was how certain units could turn faster than others. It was mainly demonstrated by the Thor/Odin, a giant mech that dealt area damage and was built on the field by an SCV. In the clip, the Thor/Odin was shown trying to fight a convoy of Diamondbacks (which were called Cobras back then), and you would be able to see how the Diamondbacks circled around and shot at the Thor/Odin while it was struggling to aim at them.
The problem with turning speed is that if they considered turning speed, then the unit with poor turning speed needs to have more power to compensate for their bad turning speed. In the beta, Thor/odin was MUCH stronger due to poor turning speed. Personally, I dont think it would of changed the game much. The game needed more dynamic micro such Spliting Marine vs Baneling. This example is great because both races has the ability to micro against the opponent micro. Terran can split their marines to minimize damage while Zerg can split their baneling to maximize damage and not get kited. These are the sort of micro that made SC1 amazing. SC1 had Dragoon vs Vulture, Vessel vs Defilers and Marine vs Lurker etc etc. They started adding more in such as Disruptor but it was too late.
Personally, I love Firebats. Their armor, backstory and voices are awesome. Perdition Turrets/Flaming Betty's are pretty neat too. Flame weapons and pyrotechnics in general have always been fascinating in games.
@@Pochi361 Well, no. But I once played Command and Conquer: Generals! I liked the Black Napalm upgrade that increases the damage and changes the color of your flames to purple.
@@AtomicF0x there is mod for generals zero hour, the contra mod. In this mod normal china get replaced by a Flame general. And nearly all of his weapons are flame weapons . Red gards have a Flame rocket Launcher. The gatling Cannon and tank got replaced by a weapen that shot ( as far as i understand it) burning air, they got an Upgrade in the Propaganda Center that give them some kind of air firestorm against Plains. The Overlord tank has flamethrowers instead of cannons and can ad an lava shoting Cannon. He got fuel mines and Trucks,which can put there fuel one the ground so flame weapons can ignite them to create a firestorm. The helix Helicopter also can drop fuel. You get an heavy t3 flame MRLS Artillery. With an Upgrade battlemasters and tank hunters also shot anty armor flame amunition. Instead of a nuclear missle he has solar lince which is a long lasting auto targeting particle Cannon. His epic unit (a very strong unit of who only one can be on the Battlefield) is a giant long range Magma shoting tank which can also create a firestorm. There is an late game Upgrade which replaces firestorm creating weapons with MOAPs. As general Points you have flame Training ( all flamethrowing units get one star by Default), flame Artillery burage, fuel Cluster bomardment which can be icnited ( works good with the Artillery burage). And as five star you get the fuel air bomb. Oh and the black Napalm is Upgraded by Default.
Yeah too bad they're absolutely useless ingame. it's painful to look at, I really don't know how blizzard insists on making them complete garbage despite having such cool designs
@@Pochi361 The Black hand has arrived. literally broken that their missile and confessor squads could gain a black hand trooper making an anti infantry/vehicle unit shred structures like its nothing plus they could instantly clear garrisons and basically beat all other basic infantry in straight combat. I loved bullying the ai by rushing that out.
they should sometimes do challenges in tournaments when some of these units appear in limited quantity or are involved in some way... you can balance out them being OP with some rule or some buff...
You can still play around with Warhounds in a multiplayer setting if you play a map and use one of the +Campaign and Co-Op mods for a custom lobby (that's where my experience with them comes from). Not sure about HERCs though
Maru would become unstoppable with Mass Warhound. Actually. Zerg has been the Top Dog for too long, Just give Terran Warhound so they can compete again outside Maru
@@mwperk02reapers themselves got an insane re-work after Liberty. Basically not the same unit anymore. Only jumping was left unchanged. Doubt Herk couldn't get a similar treatment
Warhounds were only used against you in hots campaign. I wish that they would have been actually usable as Terran in the lotv prologue mission or in Nova covert ops. We just got to look at them and get attacked by them, not use them. A real shame in my opinion
Get rid of hellbat spot and put in either shredder back or the herc back. Or even diamondback or warhound back. Because the widow mines really suck, and also we do not need 2 spots for just hellions and hellbats. As hellions transforms into hellbats.
I don't remember exactly what tournament it was all those years ago, but the weekend where the Slayers team showed the true power of blue flame hellions and Day9 kept shouting "Line em up!"... Still my favorite SC2 moment ❤
I'm still sad the HERC didn't make it, even if they had to nerf it somehow. Terran would have had a true counter to banelings instead of praying for enough troops to survive once the wave has passed.
I honestly wished they would have done something like the co op mission set ups with terran/zerg/protoss. Figure have your choice for terran of Dominion/Raynor/UED let's say, for zerg, Over mind/Kerrigan/Zergus and for the Protoss Artanis/Conclave/Dark templar where each sub faction would have their own twists on each of the races. Figure while let's say the Conclave was great at anti-armor, they would lack in anti-bio/light DPS, and Artanis would be the exact opposite. Especially for team battles it would make things much more interesting. If Star Craft's story wasn't over, I could have seen blizzard doing something like that for a StarCraft 3, but as we all know, story's over.
The dumbest thing about sc2 is they removed OG units just to replace them with essentially the same unit just different. Examples. The dragoon got removed and became the stalker but wait the immortal was essentially also a dragoon. Then we have the firebat they removed the bat but added the hellion wow cool a flamethrower dune buggy but wait it gets better they updated the unit to transform now it walks just as fast as marines and has a flamethrower.....just like the bats... Then they got rid of wraiths and goliaths only to put in the vikings which play the role of both via transforming...but the idea of a ship not being able to attack ground is stupid. Hell the list goes on and its worse when you realize a few brood war units got added AGAIN as part of the newer SC2 expansions
@@razorback9999able because they couldnt. There was nothing cool and shiny they could add unless they made water vehicles. To this day zerg doesnt have a "battleship" type unit. You could say well the broodlord or whatever its called is its unit or the leviatian but it just feels like a weird ass flying stingray or in the leviathans case a fat ass fly. And if i may say the units we do get that are new are just so ass. The zerg leans to much into the "bug" nonsense rather than alien. And terran leaned too much into the transformer nonsense. And protoss leaned to much into the robot crap. Which if im honest is the coolest of the three. colossus specifically.
Brood War units that were missing in Starcraft 2 eventually made it in anyway. Firebats became Hellbats Spidermines became widowmines Goliaths became Cyclones Valkeries became Liberators Reavers became disruptors.
Having multiple types of units that fulfill the same niche isn't a problem as long as you don't have a lateral form of thinking when it comes to the meta-game. Unit costs are easy to adjust. The trade-off between lower and higher tier units should be one of efficiency versus effectiveness. If the higher tier units (e.g. the hellion) fulfilling a similar niche (e.g. the firebat) are time-locked out of the early game, then it makes more sense for the former to gradually obsolesce the latter. The game designers and balancers of SC2 don't seem to have understood the efficiency/effectiveness tradeoff very well and only thought about game balance in a lateral and fairly simplistic way.
Care to explain more about efficiency versus effectiveness in more detail? Take an example, a higher-tier equivalent of the Marine trained at the Barracks but requires a Tech Lab and a Fusion Core, does not have stim ability, but has very high rate of fire, and compare it to it's low tier equivalent.
I've said this for so long but Z and P got such cool tools (vipers, disruptors, MSC, adepts, lurkers) terran we got widowmines and a cyclone that has gone under 3+ reworks/tweaks. I would have loved it if we actually got a cool good unit but in blizzard we trusted.
Yeah I think pretty much it comes down to Terran having the most utility already right from WoL. Toss in WoL had pretty much only the High Templar and Sentries for spellcasters and Zerg had Infestors and Queens. Terran still has the most toys to play with but most Terran players will just spam MMM anyways.
Lets be honest Widow mines are still pretty busted. Especially at low levels where players don't seem to know what a detector is. unlike dts or lurkers though its a unit terran is guranteed to have access to at any stage of the game.
I always thought when I was younger when Warcraft three was out, and I saw StarCraft like characters in the map maker feature and thought it was gonna come closer to the dates when those games came out but I was way off.
If Firebats would come back in Multiplayer, Marauders should be redesigned to be long-range glass cannons. This creates a new bio dynamic never seen before consisting of Firebats in the front, Marines in the middle, and Marauders and Medivacs in the back. I want more positional plays in RTS games. Since Firebats overlap with Hellbats, which are the spiritual successors, I think the Hellbat should be redesigned to be more distinct from the Firebat.
I think hellbats should have something that gives them a purpose. hellions are better vs zerg because of the range and they don't get much use vs protoss or terran in either form. even with blue flame hellions trade poorly with marines. an upgrade that grants extra armor might be a good option like what swann has in coop. Plus 2 armor would make them great against zealots and be a solid damage sponge in tvt biobattles. This might make them too strong vs zerglings though.
One of my bigger complaints about the game is we get access to all these different unit types in the campaign yet only get a fraction of them in the melee format.
To be fair, a number of them were designed purely for the campaign, as they weren't balanced for/weren't suitable for the multiplayer, but blizzard were very much aware that a campaign can be and should be imbalanced for multiplayer, and thus fun even for the more casual players who don't enjoy the ladder experience.
@@Santisima_Trinidad True, and I agree, but also think that a lot of those units could have been balanced more for multiplayer just as pretty much every other unit in the melee scene has been changed since it's initial forms. While I know that Blizzard wanted each of their units to be unique in their role, there are still units that could have had a place in the melee... Goliaths as an example. While it is true that the Firebat was obsolete, it was also a barracks unit and maybe they could have done something to give it some advantage... I'm still trying to figure out why their mech equivalent can be healed by medivacs in one form but not the other... It would just be nice to have some additional options, even if they aren't as "meta" as the standard ones.
@@fundamentalconvolution1749 the obvious firebat answer is having it use infantry upgrades instead of mech ones, thus fitting better into a bio forces. The issue with the firebat was always that you couldn't stutter step it, because it a had a giant attack wind up, and as bio is entirely balanced around stimmed forces stutter stepping away from the enemy, trying to have a bio unit that can't stutter step is just terrible. Saying its because it costs gas isn't really true, as the marauder costs gas, and you don't utilise marauders anti armour much when fighting something like a ling bane hydra force, just their bulk, so firebats costing gas when they are anti light and have better than marauder bulk, but having a mineral only competitor on seperate upgrades isn't that much of an issue for them. If it was, making hellbats mechanical instead of bio, then probably giving them a bit of extra statage, would give you the option between the healable firebat and the non healable but gas cheaper (and possibly stronger) hellbat. Goliaths could also be very fun in multiplayer, but unfortunately vikings just outcompete them in both their roles, whilst being way more nimble and less vulnerable to stuff like banelings and ultralisks, so it's really hard to actually have any use for Goliaths in multiplayer.
@@Santisima_Trinidad I agree regarding the firebat, so perhaps they should consider having more than just one way to play bio... As to Goliaths, while it is true that the Viking out-performed them, the viking also has to transform from air to ground before affecting the other (requiring both time and micro). My point is that it wouldn't hurt to have those options, as it wouldn't hurt people that choose to go with Vikings, but would give others different approaches and possibly open up entirely different play styles. A big part of what makes a game feel old (and often times not even fun) is when you HAVE to play it a set way to even stand a chance. That's the flaw with metas, it tends to limit creativity. (Before people automatically dismiss what I'm saying there, with the metas they pretty much have a lot of the gameplay (especially early game) planned out so there is only so much room to experiment without sabotaging your own chances to compete. So while you could choose to try something different, and it may work in the lower levels, more times than not doing something "different" falls prey to either the quick attack of rushes or the out-performance of macro play. Adding in some different unit types could help to change that up a bit. While there will still be some things that are more or less efficient, the 'set unit role' mentality that SC2 follows tends to create barriers to play more than it offers approaches to play.
@@fundamentalconvolution1749 that is a very good set of points. Additionally, if we have goliaths in the game, it might be possible to convince people to let multi lock weapons system affect thors, and that would be very fun. Of course, you also have to consider protos and zerg options. If we go out and give terran diamondbacks, goliaths, and firebats and maybe specters, we'd probably want to give protos and zerg some extra stuff. Protos we could maybe be sending out dragoons and reavers, and maybe darchons(or anything other than darchons, those things are overpowered). But zerg? Only things i think we could give them which could be balanced are aberrations. Scourge are a no, banelings are not fun units and making them fly is a bad idea, then devourers are awkward due to the anti armour auto attacks. Maybe a leviathan in the same style as a mothership?
Why not make Warhounds more expensive? The same cost demonstrations you showed indicate that it was WAY too cheap if it came out in similar numbers to hydras and outnumbered archons and immortals
I think the problem was that nerfing it in capability put it in competition with the marauder, and nerfing in cost put it in competition with the thor. There was just no place for it in the army without redesigning the entire terran army around it because it replaced the entire terran army.
@@mckendrick7672 I know this is HOTS but Thors are way better at killing air units and have never been good against mechanical units. The Thor we see today could've been implemented back then and the Thor can be the AA to the Warhound's anti mech
I remember hearing about the Warhound in a Game Informer article and just going "Huh? Isn't there an entire race of biologicals? How can they possibly make this balanced?"
I just wish they added all these units and keep adding units......to hell with bing optimal or obsolete then just dont make it, but would be so much fun in single player or multiplayer non competitively
They were too much like a marine, they got rid of guardians, queens, battle cruisers from the meta and made wraith & scout play and dropping into tanks almost non-existing, they didn't really counter carriers if the carriers were massed at huge numbers. How would you make goliath more unique vs marine, able to beat guardians but not making them OP, able to defeat mass carrier unless carrier guy had very very good micro, able to defeat wraiths & scouts & drops while not removing these options from play.
@@AlexRodriguez-gb9ezi mean they have downsides, like the fact that you can't have medics healing them you'd need a science vessel or SCVs, critically that also means they need more resources to heal, they are slower to amass, Goliaths could easily fit in the same roster as the marine, it had already done so, beyond that, if you need to tweak a unit, like say, remove it's ground attack and make it cheaper as a result, or make both of it's attacks rather weak, but it can use both weapons at the same time you get a weapon system with a lot to offer a player without treading on the marine
I was disappointed that they removed the herc, right after they announced the cyclone and herc (they were the new terran units) I knew the herc will be op.
Pretty much all vehicular and flying combat should have been move-while-fire with stutter step really just being bio exclusive. This would seem to reduce the effect of micro on fights as everything would then be like two corsair groups battling it out, unless projectiles were allowed to miss and capable of being dodged by microing the units. Why are all nearly all shots guaranteed to land in SC2? It makes no sense. Make them miss.
I wish the firebat was in multiplayer I know the hellion already does it’s job but they could of made it so that the hellion had a smaller cone but longer range and vice versa
Instead of nerfing some of these units, like the war hounds, why weren't they treated like a mercenary type of unit, and you could only summon one at a time with a cooldown? That way they wouldn't replace other units completely, but you could have 3 to 5 to supplement your army.
HERC imo could have stayed as an alternative to reapers ... i mean when do we see reapers outside of early game? just needed to increase the cooldown on the hookshot me thinks
Not sure. But why not a mode with tech/bio trees? An army can't have everything, but players coukd try everything, or at least, more variations to playstyles
PROTOSS deleted units - ruclips.net/video/TlqBhNw_RRU/видео.html
ZERG deleted units - ruclips.net/video/f66w6JXQS1c/видео.html
Timecodes:
00:00 Units that never made it to the ladder
00:25 Unit №1
01:19 Unit №2
02:23 Unit №3
03:02 Unit №4
04:22 Unit №5
They really remove firebat ??? no way, this unit was epic
I loved the idea of building thors as a building
Feels like that idea was carried over to coop Mira&Han
@@wouju9600 I've never played MiraHan - are there thors in that faction?
@@ChristianSandviknes No, but Mira's "barracks" can fly and shoot while producing.
@@ChristianSandviknes what the other guy said, coop MiraHan has a special unit that is trained by building it with an SCV
@@Nat-ri3ip @Wouju - thanks for the info : )
I know that HERCs would have been a weird unit with a very specific use, but man even that one clip shows the potential for amazing micro with the HERC
True
Also, small as the 'immune to baneling' is, feel like people would come up with some wild stuff with that sorta thing.
I actually wish HERC weren't removed. They probably should have been relegated to higher tech or their cost increased. They were really cool as a concept.
Well the reaper kind of has one use too lol so maybe it wasnt so far fetched to include thr HERC
Actually having reaper and Herc is a deadly dou because if what I see that they can grapple friendly ground units they can basically meat shields for reaper with there +1 armor and the reaper having range (with no anti air capabilities) they can decimate any enemy economy if not protected.
The Warhound is fun to use. I wish there were more campaigns with them. The Herc just has hilarious voice lines and was used once in Covert Ops. I hope to see these units in an expansion of some sort
Even if they didn't make it into multiplayer, wish more of these units were useable in the campaigns, or even trainable (after unlocking them). Sure multiplayer it wasn't balanced at all, but in the campaigns you can make even stuff that'd normally be *busted* balanced by comparison.
@@itzaleaf405 theres mods that have them (coop and campaign mod) that you can build them all.
@@kingpet where?
The warhound was a very stupid unit. It came with auto missiles too I believe, which was even more stupid. It made it into a big marauder that just auto cast missile to something near by. The purpose with the warhound was to make Mech viable but it just turned Mech into a boring mass warhound hellion. Basically any combination of Warhound would just revolve around a slow moving A-move composition. Eventually they gave up.
The fact that the warhound even made it to beta baffled me at the time. The warhound just had zero potential to be interesting. It added nothing to any match up.
Tychus Co-op.
"Herc only place was in the early game", Reapers hiding behind a corner...
Yeah I guess terran race doesn't need two early game only units xD
"How Byun single handedly got hercs(reapers) nerfed twice"
*reaper, singular
Most of the time I don’t see more than one
Warhound was funny because a maxed out army of Voidrays vs a Maxed out army of Warhounds would result in the Warhounds winning
That's how you know they are op
Void Rays beat Warhounds only because Warhounds couldnt shoot up. Anything on the ground lost to Warhounds though at equal cost (even things that were supposed to counter them) except for Banelings and properly-placed, already set Siege Tanks (caught out of position/unsieged though, and they're screwed). Pretty much the only way to beat them at critical mass (which didnt take *that* many) was to go air
@@BroadwayRonMexico Nope, Voidrays would lose anytime. The Warhound's haywire missiles would shred voidrays. Sure they couldn't shoot up with their auto attack, but they could still shoot the missiles
@@theunholyadventurer2376 Haywire Missiles can only be used on what the Warhound is presently attacking. Because the Warhound can't shoot up, the Haywire Missiles can't either.
If you don't believe me, there are map mods (ones you don't even need to download separately) that let you build Warhounds and other campaign units in a melee so you can test them out
I honestly want them back 😁 they look cool beside being OP.
The warhound also looked as if goofy had been fitted with a custom goliath mech
I can’t un-see it😢
It's actually an SCV chassis in-lore.
You should also do a video with scrapped abilities. Lifting sieged tanks, Raven's seeker missile, or Thor's battery fire come to mind.
Carrier's release interceptors, the archon toilet, pylon overcharge, nexus overcharge, mutualisks evolving into brood lords...
@@Anomen77 the archon toilet meta was so boring lol
@@Anomen77is "archon toilet" the self-destruction ability in the Legacy of the Void trailer?
@@AnMCommback in wol, you could just use the mothership vortex hability to make all units come.out in clumps, so if you threw like 7 archons there and you could literally delete any army
For some reason I am 100% sure that HERCs were available in multiplayer for some time
And I remember playing them
Yet liquipedia says that it wasn't playable
Were they available or my memory lies to me?
And yeah, HERC grapple is just so funny I love it and wish a unit with it to appear
Tychus has legendary HERC mercenary
Maybe in the Betas, it always were a lot of stuff in the Betas before the final version of the game
you probably just remember watching a video of someone using them like this exhibition match shown here.
Liquipedia is right, they weren't in the lige game at all. But if you were in the lucky ones to get into beta in 2014-2015 before release of LOTV. You might have been able to use them on the ladder, as well as using the old versions of the disruptor.
@@streetstroller All exhibition matches were using beta version of the game, most of them closed betas.
Love this. Looking forward to the other races. You should make one on the abilities that were removed too because there's a lot of interesting ones for each race.
Yes I actually plan a video about redesigned abilities
Maybe the Zerg cabal is indeed true, after all... Because when Terran gets OP units in the game, they are removed, but add some Swarm Hosts and make every match a turtle fest and it's a-ok
I had never heard of the shredder before! How interesting!
I only remember it being in the gameplay demos, never that it was actually in the game.
I remember seing the Shredder clip when it was revealed. The whole crowd erupted like "HELL NO WTF"
Love this theme! Miss anticipating the new units coming out for the expansions back then
I really like the Herc and Warhound. I hope we get them in Co-Op at some point..... or ANY support for Co-Op at that....
Well we got hero variants of them in co op for tychus.
@@Pochi361 true, but still not the normal unit.
This isn't exactly about units, but one aspect of game design that I really wish made it into the game was Turning Speed. I remember seeing gameplay of a beta version of Starcraft, and one big game mechanic that would have been important to micro was how certain units could turn faster than others. It was mainly demonstrated by the Thor/Odin, a giant mech that dealt area damage and was built on the field by an SCV. In the clip, the Thor/Odin was shown trying to fight a convoy of Diamondbacks (which were called Cobras back then), and you would be able to see how the Diamondbacks circled around and shot at the Thor/Odin while it was struggling to aim at them.
The problem with turning speed is that if they considered turning speed, then the unit with poor turning speed needs to have more power to compensate for their bad turning speed. In the beta, Thor/odin was MUCH stronger due to poor turning speed. Personally, I dont think it would of changed the game much.
The game needed more dynamic micro such Spliting Marine vs Baneling. This example is great because both races has the ability to micro against the opponent micro. Terran can split their marines to minimize damage while Zerg can split their baneling to maximize damage and not get kited. These are the sort of micro that made SC1 amazing. SC1 had Dragoon vs Vulture, Vessel vs Defilers and Marine vs Lurker etc etc. They started adding more in such as Disruptor but it was too late.
Personally, I love Firebats. Their armor, backstory and voices are awesome. Perdition Turrets/Flaming Betty's are pretty neat too. Flame weapons and pyrotechnics in general have always been fascinating in games.
Did you play command and conquer 3 kanes wrath? There is a whole sup faction with many flamme weapons.
@@Pochi361 Well, no. But I once played Command and Conquer: Generals! I liked the Black Napalm upgrade that increases the damage and changes the color of your flames to purple.
@@AtomicF0x there is mod for generals zero hour, the contra mod. In this mod normal china get replaced by a Flame general. And nearly all of his weapons are flame weapons . Red gards have a Flame rocket Launcher. The gatling Cannon and tank got replaced by a weapen that shot ( as far as i understand it) burning air, they got an Upgrade in the Propaganda Center that give them some kind of air firestorm against Plains. The Overlord tank has flamethrowers instead of cannons and can ad an lava shoting Cannon. He got fuel mines and Trucks,which can put there fuel one the ground so flame weapons can ignite them to create a firestorm. The helix Helicopter also can drop fuel. You get an heavy t3 flame MRLS Artillery. With an Upgrade battlemasters and tank hunters also shot anty armor flame amunition. Instead of a nuclear missle he has solar lince which is a long lasting auto targeting particle Cannon. His epic unit (a very strong unit of who only one can be on the Battlefield) is a giant long range Magma shoting tank which can also create a firestorm. There is an late game Upgrade which replaces firestorm creating weapons with MOAPs. As general Points you have flame Training ( all flamethrowing units get one star by Default), flame Artillery burage, fuel Cluster bomardment which can be icnited ( works good with the Artillery burage). And as five star you get the fuel air bomb. Oh and the black Napalm is Upgraded by Default.
Yeah too bad they're absolutely useless ingame. it's painful to look at, I really don't know how blizzard insists on making them complete garbage despite having such cool designs
@@Pochi361 The Black hand has arrived. literally broken that their missile and confessor squads could gain a black hand trooper making an anti infantry/vehicle unit shred structures like its nothing plus they could instantly clear garrisons and basically beat all other basic infantry in straight combat. I loved bullying the ai by rushing that out.
Credits to Tya's channel from most of the clips of units clashing each other taken here
they should sometimes do challenges in tournaments when some of these units appear in limited quantity or are involved in some way...
you can balance out them being OP with some rule or some buff...
People who watch giant grant games: what are you talkin about we see these units all the time?
Hahaha true
I remember seeing the video introduction for HERCs and warhounds some time ago, but I couldn't see how they did in the multiplayer until now
You can still play around with Warhounds in a multiplayer setting if you play a map and use one of the +Campaign and Co-Op mods for a custom lobby (that's where my experience with them comes from). Not sure about HERCs though
It would be really nice to make a tournament where every player can pick up some of theese old op units. Keep up the cool content 😉👌
Maru would become unstoppable with Mass Warhound.
Actually. Zerg has been the Top Dog for too long, Just give Terran Warhound so they can compete again outside Maru
Firebat was kind of brought back as a hellion upgrade tho which is cool, and blue flame upgrade as well.
The herc was awesome. They have just tweaked it so it could be overrun by zerglings. Maybe make it 2 shot them and increase the cd. Great shame.
tbh reapers offer more fun and balanced early game interactions with the Z and P matchups anyway.
@@mwperk02reapers themselves got an insane re-work after Liberty. Basically not the same unit anymore. Only jumping was left unchanged. Doubt Herk couldn't get a similar treatment
Warhounds were only used against you in hots campaign. I wish that they would have been actually usable as Terran in the lotv prologue mission or in Nova covert ops. We just got to look at them and get attacked by them, not use them. A real shame in my opinion
1st time seeing that version of widow mine. Kinda sad they don't include this version in coop.
I absolutely love the content you're putting out, keep it up! Super interesting
Thanks!
Get rid of hellbat spot and put in either shredder back or the herc back. Or even diamondback or warhound back. Because the widow mines really suck, and also we do not need 2 spots for just hellions and hellbats. As hellions transforms into hellbats.
I don't remember exactly what tournament it was all those years ago, but the weekend where the Slayers team showed the true power of blue flame hellions and Day9 kept shouting "Line em up!"... Still my favorite SC2 moment ❤
I know this won’t happen but I hope to see new units in the future it will spice up the game.
I'm still sad the HERC didn't make it, even if they had to nerf it somehow.
Terran would have had a true counter to banelings instead of praying for enough troops to survive once the wave has passed.
I honestly wished they would have done something like the co op mission set ups with terran/zerg/protoss. Figure have your choice for terran of Dominion/Raynor/UED let's say, for zerg, Over mind/Kerrigan/Zergus and for the Protoss Artanis/Conclave/Dark templar where each sub faction would have their own twists on each of the races. Figure while let's say the Conclave was great at anti-armor, they would lack in anti-bio/light DPS, and Artanis would be the exact opposite. Especially for team battles it would make things much more interesting. If Star Craft's story wasn't over, I could have seen blizzard doing something like that for a StarCraft 3, but as we all know, story's over.
I really liked Nomad. It looked way more like a Terran unit instead of Raven, which looks more like a Protoss one.
BCs as individually upgradable during WOL beta? That was pretty cool.
Thors were built as a structure by scvs
Thank you for this episode!!!!!
I love how two of those became mercs for Tychus
0:30 If i'm not mistaken one of campaign overhaul mods makes Firebats far better since it just fixes some issue that their attack animation had.
There was also that one protoss unit that would make copies of other race units
Yes, replicant, it'll be in part 2
The dumbest thing about sc2 is they removed OG units just to replace them with essentially the same unit just different. Examples. The dragoon got removed and became the stalker but wait the immortal was essentially also a dragoon. Then we have the firebat they removed the bat but added the hellion wow cool a flamethrower dune buggy but wait it gets better they updated the unit to transform now it walks just as fast as marines and has a flamethrower.....just like the bats...
Then they got rid of wraiths and goliaths only to put in the vikings which play the role of both via transforming...but the idea of a ship not being able to attack ground is stupid. Hell the list goes on and its worse when you realize a few brood war units got added AGAIN as part of the newer SC2 expansions
I like the Vikings
Which begs me the question: Why won't they make unique units that doesn't overlap the existing role blatantly?
@@razorback9999able because they couldnt. There was nothing cool and shiny they could add unless they made water vehicles.
To this day zerg doesnt have a "battleship" type unit. You could say well the broodlord or whatever its called is its unit or the leviatian but it just feels like a weird ass flying stingray or in the leviathans case a fat ass fly.
And if i may say the units we do get that are new are just so ass. The zerg leans to much into the "bug" nonsense rather than alien. And terran leaned too much into the transformer nonsense. And protoss leaned to much into the robot crap. Which if im honest is the coolest of the three. colossus specifically.
@@arnerippey3677 you can like the vikings. But they replaced 2 OG units
@@johnblackrose it is strange especially considering all units you mentioned are in the campaign
Forgot the Nomad. It was in some of the WoL lore videos before release. You can see the model on Mira Han's junk planet. Flying around.
Test Realm with all units unlocked would be fun
Brood War units that were missing in Starcraft 2 eventually made it in anyway.
Firebats became Hellbats
Spidermines became widowmines
Goliaths became Cyclones
Valkeries became Liberators
Reavers became disruptors.
"There was no place for this unit at any other part of the game" meanwhile reapers...
Yeah that's probably the only exception
Just all the Oracle and Disruptors iterations by themselves are already worth a video each XD
True, and Raven
Having multiple types of units that fulfill the same niche isn't a problem as long as you don't have a lateral form of thinking when it comes to the meta-game. Unit costs are easy to adjust. The trade-off between lower and higher tier units should be one of efficiency versus effectiveness. If the higher tier units (e.g. the hellion) fulfilling a similar niche (e.g. the firebat) are time-locked out of the early game, then it makes more sense for the former to gradually obsolesce the latter. The game designers and balancers of SC2 don't seem to have understood the efficiency/effectiveness tradeoff very well and only thought about game balance in a lateral and fairly simplistic way.
Care to explain more about efficiency versus effectiveness in more detail? Take an example, a higher-tier equivalent of the Marine trained at the Barracks but requires a Tech Lab and a Fusion Core, does not have stim ability, but has very high rate of fire, and compare it to it's low tier equivalent.
Love this vid. ... They need to have two ladders in SC2: Pros and Joes. As they seem to like to play the game very differently.
The warhound was so good lmao
Teuren marine was my favorite unit but it never made into the game except one campaign mission
I've said this for so long but Z and P got such cool tools (vipers, disruptors, MSC, adepts, lurkers) terran we got widowmines and a cyclone that has gone under 3+ reworks/tweaks. I would have loved it if we actually got a cool good unit but in blizzard we trusted.
Terran started with a lot of cool gadgets, because SC2's first part was WOL, the Terran themed one.
Also, what about liberators?
Yeah I think pretty much it comes down to Terran having the most utility already right from WoL. Toss in WoL had pretty much only the High Templar and Sentries for spellcasters and Zerg had Infestors and Queens. Terran still has the most toys to play with but most Terran players will just spam MMM anyways.
Lets be honest Widow mines are still pretty busted. Especially at low levels where players don't seem to know what a detector is. unlike dts or lurkers though its a unit terran is guranteed to have access to at any stage of the game.
I always thought when I was younger when Warcraft three was out, and I saw StarCraft like characters in the map maker feature and thought it was gonna come closer to the dates when those games came out but I was way off.
The war hounds where a missed opportunity in the Co Op missions
Personally what I wanted the most from the beta was the call down reinforcements for ghosts.
Strange how the Reaper exists in literally the same exact non-niche as the HERC, and yet is still in the game.
videos like this are such an insightful glimpse into just how unimaginative the designers are.
HERC was straight up broken. They dealt so much damage they even tear through Zerg larvae.
tbh a barracks unit being able to bully multiple queens by itself speaks volumes.
Wow d.Apollo and Day[9] casting! what a blast from the past. While i think the new casters are great i really miss those two very much.
I miss the science vessel ☹️
Firebats were awesome if you ever play them back in the day
Are some of these battles clipped from Tya's channel?
If Firebats would come back in Multiplayer, Marauders should be redesigned to be long-range glass cannons. This creates a new bio dynamic never seen before consisting of Firebats in the front, Marines in the middle, and Marauders and Medivacs in the back. I want more positional plays in RTS games. Since Firebats overlap with Hellbats, which are the spiritual successors, I think the Hellbat should be redesigned to be more distinct from the Firebat.
It would be interesting
I think hellbats should have something that gives them a purpose. hellions are better vs zerg because of the range and they don't get much use vs protoss or terran in either form. even with blue flame hellions trade poorly with marines. an upgrade that grants extra armor might be a good option like what swann has in coop. Plus 2 armor would make them great against zealots and be a solid damage sponge in tvt biobattles. This might make them too strong vs zerglings though.
Fire bats would be great vs zerg since there not light units like hellbats
One of my bigger complaints about the game is we get access to all these different unit types in the campaign yet only get a fraction of them in the melee format.
To be fair, a number of them were designed purely for the campaign, as they weren't balanced for/weren't suitable for the multiplayer, but blizzard were very much aware that a campaign can be and should be imbalanced for multiplayer, and thus fun even for the more casual players who don't enjoy the ladder experience.
@@Santisima_Trinidad True, and I agree, but also think that a lot of those units could have been balanced more for multiplayer just as pretty much every other unit in the melee scene has been changed since it's initial forms. While I know that Blizzard wanted each of their units to be unique in their role, there are still units that could have had a place in the melee... Goliaths as an example. While it is true that the Firebat was obsolete, it was also a barracks unit and maybe they could have done something to give it some advantage... I'm still trying to figure out why their mech equivalent can be healed by medivacs in one form but not the other... It would just be nice to have some additional options, even if they aren't as "meta" as the standard ones.
@@fundamentalconvolution1749 the obvious firebat answer is having it use infantry upgrades instead of mech ones, thus fitting better into a bio forces.
The issue with the firebat was always that you couldn't stutter step it, because it a had a giant attack wind up, and as bio is entirely balanced around stimmed forces stutter stepping away from the enemy, trying to have a bio unit that can't stutter step is just terrible.
Saying its because it costs gas isn't really true, as the marauder costs gas, and you don't utilise marauders anti armour much when fighting something like a ling bane hydra force, just their bulk, so firebats costing gas when they are anti light and have better than marauder bulk, but having a mineral only competitor on seperate upgrades isn't that much of an issue for them. If it was, making hellbats mechanical instead of bio, then probably giving them a bit of extra statage, would give you the option between the healable firebat and the non healable but gas cheaper (and possibly stronger) hellbat.
Goliaths could also be very fun in multiplayer, but unfortunately vikings just outcompete them in both their roles, whilst being way more nimble and less vulnerable to stuff like banelings and ultralisks, so it's really hard to actually have any use for Goliaths in multiplayer.
@@Santisima_Trinidad I agree regarding the firebat, so perhaps they should consider having more than just one way to play bio...
As to Goliaths, while it is true that the Viking out-performed them, the viking also has to transform from air to ground before affecting the other (requiring both time and micro). My point is that it wouldn't hurt to have those options, as it wouldn't hurt people that choose to go with Vikings, but would give others different approaches and possibly open up entirely different play styles. A big part of what makes a game feel old (and often times not even fun) is when you HAVE to play it a set way to even stand a chance. That's the flaw with metas, it tends to limit creativity.
(Before people automatically dismiss what I'm saying there, with the metas they pretty much have a lot of the gameplay (especially early game) planned out so there is only so much room to experiment without sabotaging your own chances to compete. So while you could choose to try something different, and it may work in the lower levels, more times than not doing something "different" falls prey to either the quick attack of rushes or the out-performance of macro play. Adding in some different unit types could help to change that up a bit. While there will still be some things that are more or less efficient, the 'set unit role' mentality that SC2 follows tends to create barriers to play more than it offers approaches to play.
@@fundamentalconvolution1749 that is a very good set of points.
Additionally, if we have goliaths in the game, it might be possible to convince people to let multi lock weapons system affect thors, and that would be very fun.
Of course, you also have to consider protos and zerg options. If we go out and give terran diamondbacks, goliaths, and firebats and maybe specters, we'd probably want to give protos and zerg some extra stuff. Protos we could maybe be sending out dragoons and reavers, and maybe darchons(or anything other than darchons, those things are overpowered).
But zerg? Only things i think we could give them which could be balanced are aberrations. Scourge are a no, banelings are not fun units and making them fly is a bad idea, then devourers are awkward due to the anti armour auto attacks. Maybe a leviathan in the same style as a mothership?
What if we just made the last unit a unit that cleans up Zerg infestation?
Good video, but the next time mention TYA when u use some of his video for 70% of image material ^^
Sorry my bad, added him in the description
@@EsportsStoryteller hahah don’t worry, I’m just a big fan of direct strike ^^ your video was entertaining and informative, well done.
I'd say herc would fit perfectly in place of reaper, although probably would need a little nerf.
imagine peak byun with hercs
Why not make Warhounds more expensive? The same cost demonstrations you showed indicate that it was WAY too cheap if it came out in similar numbers to hydras and outnumbered archons and immortals
I think the problem was that nerfing it in capability put it in competition with the marauder, and nerfing in cost put it in competition with the thor. There was just no place for it in the army without redesigning the entire terran army around it because it replaced the entire terran army.
@@mckendrick7672 I know this is HOTS but Thors are way better at killing air units and have never been good against mechanical units.
The Thor we see today could've been implemented back then and the Thor can be the AA to the Warhound's anti mech
Expensive warhounds are pretty much thors
Apart from the first 2 units off, all others are playable in the NOVA campaign
Does tankivac count as scrapped unit? :D
Well given it was actually in release gameplay for a while it’s more like a removed unit.
That's a redesign, gonna make a video about that too
I mean kinda forgot about that firebat wasn't really removed but changed into the hellions alternative mode instead
I remember hearing about the Warhound in a Game Informer article and just going "Huh? Isn't there an entire race of biologicals? How can they possibly make this balanced?"
Hey, What about Medics???
Very nice video bro.
Herc mechanic seeems cool with the grappling
Firebat in bunker only, miss that
Herc looks so fun.
I just wish they added all these units and keep adding units......to hell with bing optimal or obsolete then just dont make it, but would be so much fun in single player or multiplayer non competitively
Really wish the diamondback and warhound had made it into MP proper
It's so sąd that diamondbacks are not in multiplayer cause they were so comfortable during the train mission in wings of liberty
But are the skins still in the game? They could always be used in custom maps
it is said that the deletion of warhound is due to its high advantage against mechanical units of Protoss
I'll never understand why they removed goliath..
They were too much like a marine, they got rid of guardians, queens, battle cruisers from the meta and made wraith & scout play and dropping into tanks almost non-existing, they didn't really counter carriers if the carriers were massed at huge numbers. How would you make goliath more unique vs marine, able to beat guardians but not making them OP, able to defeat mass carrier unless carrier guy had very very good micro, able to defeat wraiths & scouts & drops while not removing these options from play.
@@AlexRodriguez-gb9ezi mean they have downsides, like the fact that you can't have medics healing them you'd need a science vessel or SCVs, critically that also means they need more resources to heal, they are slower to amass, Goliaths could easily fit in the same roster as the marine, it had already done so, beyond that, if you need to tweak a unit, like say, remove it's ground attack and make it cheaper as a result, or make both of it's attacks rather weak, but it can use both weapons at the same time you get a weapon system with a lot to offer a player without treading on the marine
I was disappointed that they removed the herc, right after they announced the cyclone and herc (they were the new terran units) I knew the herc will be op.
Pretty much all vehicular and flying combat should have been move-while-fire with stutter step really just being bio exclusive. This would seem to reduce the effect of micro on fights as everything would then be like two corsair groups battling it out, unless projectiles were allowed to miss and capable of being dodged by microing the units. Why are all nearly all shots guaranteed to land in SC2? It makes no sense. Make them miss.
I wish the firebat was in multiplayer
I know the hellion already does it’s job but they could of made it so that the hellion had a smaller cone but longer range and vice versa
Doesn't even need that, the firebat having a tanky frontline for marines is legitimately all it needs to provide value for the army
I really want the warhound.
The dream of the Terran mech army
People like to say joke saying the Ghost is a moba character... but that's true for Hercules, Jesus the thing was ridiculously
You forgot the Terra-Tron ;)
Instead of nerfing some of these units, like the war hounds, why weren't they treated like a mercenary type of unit, and you could only summon one at a time with a cooldown? That way they wouldn't replace other units completely, but you could have 3 to 5 to supplement your army.
man i do NOT remember the herc thing at all lol
HERC imo could have stayed as an alternative to reapers ... i mean when do we see reapers outside of early game?
just needed to increase the cooldown on the hookshot me thinks
Terrans would be so good with those units
These were units from Alpha ?
Make terran gr8 again🤣
Warhound is so cool.
They took my infested Terran away from me.
Still miss them
Firstly, I wanted to comment that voice is like Basset 🤣🤣🤣
Yes
The firebats whyyyy the where my fav
Not sure. But why not a mode with tech/bio trees?
An army can't have everything, but players coukd try everything, or at least, more variations to playstyles
Yeah, it's a bit sad indeed
✨✨ I have not unit ✨✨