Halcyon days, proper loco and colour, blue & grey stock, semaphore signals Wish we still had these days, ah well.... at least we have video footage like this. thank you for sharing.
I love seeing all the lads in the cab, I remember when drivers let you do that and even sometimes let you stay in while they run the engine round. Before all the madness of health and safety.
I couldn't have put that better myself, I would like some jobsworth H and S clown come on and argue against it, although the brainwashed bunch would probably throw some statisics at you to rest there case, when I was a signalman all were welcome in my box, never had any problems, some of the older ones thought they knew the job better than you but you get that when they were really into their hobby, and the younger ones were showing an interest rather than causing trouble, or today getting square eyed and brain dead on a computer game, Great days and not that long ago, I don't won't to be getting older but wouldn't want a childhood in this Nanny state that Tony Blair turned us into.
Wow Dave Saunders what a happy soul you are also a right JOBSWORTH by the sound of it, we had names for people like you on the railway but I’ll refrain from that sort of bad lauguage., cheer up Dave and try and enjoy life, you only get one shot at it.
@@paulwilson3083 Ok Paul, I’ll leave you to your nostalgic longing for the days when men worked 10-hour shifts breaking up stone and concrete with a pneumatic drill, wearing no ear-protection and who went stone deaf before they were 50. Or people like my grandad who worked as a boiler lagger at Vulcan Works and who spent his days cutting up sheets of asbestos with a bandsaw in an open workshop. I never met him, unfortunately, because he died from mesothelioma [asbestosis] before I was born.
Fantastic stuff! Shame we couldn't see more of the two 08s coupled together in motion. Scarborough is a shadow of its former self now, sadly. A 1000 thanks for putting this on.
I lived in Scarborough in the early 1980s, my children were young at that time. We would go from home [Cayton] to watch the trains at Seamer, especially the steam ones. Over those years we had day trips to Manchester and other places, Mk1 coaches and class 46 locos on the front. It was all so normal, and most enjoyable, back then . . .
What a wonderful video.....those were the days.....drivers were allowed to give cab visits.......York was a favourite of mine then and I made many a sound recording...I may upload someday....best regards....Mark
I needed to know why they don’t dig a tunnel and do an extension for the main line Train so that they can extend the unused abandoned underground train stations. Why couldn’t they use the part D78 Stock train doors on the sides and also restructure the front face of the A60 and A62 stock that includes the class 313, class 314 and class 315 remix and make them all together and also redesign them an overhead line and also make them into Five cars per units and also having three Disabled Toilets on those Five cars per units A60 and A62 stock trains and also convert the A60 and A62 stock trains into a Scania N112, Cummins M11, Volvo B10M, Gardner 6LXB, Gardner LG1200 and Gardner 8LXB Diesel Engines and also put the Loud 7-Speed Voith Gearboxes even Loud 8-Speed Leyland Hydra cyclic Gearboxes in the A60 and A62 stock, class 313, class 314, and class 315 and also modernise the A60 and A62 stock and make it into an 11 car per unit so it could have fewer doors, more tables, computers and mobile phone chargers. A Stock Train and 8 Disabled Toilets on those A stock trains. why couldn’t we refurbish and modernise the Waterloo and city line Triple-Track train tunnel and make it more Larger and extend it to the bank station, making it into a Triple-Track Railway Line so those Five countries such as Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden to convert the waterloo and city line Triple-Track Railway tunnel into a High-Speed Railway lines? The Third Euro tunnel Triple-Track Railway line to make it 11 times better for passengers so they could go from A to B. Then put the modernised 11 car per unit A Stock and put them on a bigger modernised Waterloo and city line Triple-Track train tunnel so it could go to bank station to those Five countries such as Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden. The modernised refurbished 11 cars per unit A stock could be a High Speed The Third Triple-Track Euro Tunnel Train So it is promising and 47 times a lot more possible to do this kind of project if that will be OK for London Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden. oh by the way, could they also tunnel the Triple-Track Railway Line so it will stop from Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire and Essex so that the Passengers will go to Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland and Sweden and also extend the Triple-Track Railway Line from the Bank to Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire and Essex Stations so that more people from there could go to Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden more Easily. Why couldn't they extend the Piccadilly Line and also build brand-new underground train stations so it could go even further right up to Clapton, Wood Street can they also make another brand new underground train station in Chingford and could they extend the Piccadilly Line and the DLR right up to Chingford? All of the classes 150, 155, 154, 117, 114, 105, and 106, will be replaced by all of the Scania N112, Volvo B10M, Gardner 6LXB, Gardner LG1200, Cummins M11 and Gardner 8LXB Diesel Five carriages three disabled toilets are air conditioning trains including Highams Park for extended roots which is the Piccadilly line and the DLR trains. Could you also convert all of the 1973 stock trains into an air-conditioned maximum speed 78 km/hours (48 MPH) re-refurbished and make it into a 8 cars per unit if that will be alright, and also extend all of the Piccadilly train stations to make more space for all of the extended 8 car per unit 1973 stock air condition trains and can you also build another Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive Companies and can they order Every 77 Octagon and Every 37 Hexagon shape LNER diagram unique small no.14 and unique small no.11 Boilers from those Countries such as Greece, Italy, Poland, and Sweden, can they make Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive speeds by up to 147MPH so you can try and test it on the Original Mainline so it will be much more safer for the Passengers to enjoy the 147MPH speed Limit only for HS2 and Channel Tunnel mainline services, if they needed 16 Carriages Per units, can they use those class 55’s, class 44’s, class 40’s and class 43HST Diesel Locomotive’s right at the Back of those 18 Carriages Per Units so they can take over at the Back to let those Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive’s have a rest for those interesting Journeys Please!!, oh can you make all of those Coal Boxes’s 18 Tonnes for all of those 147MPH Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive’s so the Companies will Understand us PASSENGER’S!!! so please make sure that the Builders can do as they are told!!!!!!! And Please do something about these very very important Professional ideas Please? Prime Minister of England, Prime Minister of Australia, Prime Minister of Sweden, Prime Minister of Germany, Prime Minister of Italy, Prime Minister of Poland and that Includes the Mayor of London.
There is so much to value and reflect in this. The driver wi9th his bag hanging up in the cab, the HST in original colours at York and the 40s of course! I have had a few Class 37s on the long run from Glasgow to York and once had the then Gateshead God of 37250 in fresh blue paint from York to the seaside and back!
The best years were inevitably the ones when you were between 10 and 20 years old. What’s the betting @Blooga was born around 1940 and you were born in about 1970?
The 'How many kids can you get in the cab of a Whistler' competition. Happy memories of those last few years before Health and Safety crushed the fun out of life and when the railway infrastructure was still mostly intact. Fascinating mix of locos and workings. Thanks for posting.
@@andrewoverton5170 You wouldn't mind quoting your source would you? I'm sure it was based in Hull at that time, and can find no evidence to the contrary. Cheers!
Locals have complained about a few 68s ideling overnight keeping stock warm for morning start of service. ...they would be straight on phone for this lot of movements 😮
Wish I had gone back in time when locomotives like this still existed ♥️Wow a class 08 express ,Would love to return to these classic times .Wish I was one of these lucky kiddies being inside a class 40 beast ♥️Health and Safety have ruined it nowadays since 2000
Makes me sick to think that these days are well and truly gone. Replaced by DMU's and not just here but most of the country now. No more 27's 40's 37's Peaks. Used to love thrashing out of Dundee behind a 27 or my fav' a Class 40, and on the rare occasion a Class 31 to which this day i have a photo of one pulling into Balmossie Halt
The old days are coming back... You can get Barrow - Carlisle trains hauled by Class 37's on Monday - Saturday Daily locomotive hauled trains to Yarmouth and Lowestoft And the Anglia trains to Norwich and Ipswich out of London Liverpool Street
KiNG WiLL // DDYT I know, why do you think I've got a 37 as my channel picture haha, but I still love them, they look so aggressive, they will never come close to the natural charm of the 37, but I still think they deserve recognition.
dackes julag cheers mate, that ride on 124 was one of my favourite days on the bash. Did her Scarb-York, then York-Vic for a car to New Mills for 40152 New Mills to Man Picc! Oh, and we had 45003 Leeds to Scarb too!
@@EllieMaes-Grandad what a shame part of our heritage gone we have still got some in Kent at deal station and there's some at hastings them lads jumping off the diesel must be around 50 now how time flies
Look at that wee fella whizzing along 0:05!! Those Peaks were beasts.. out and back in no time! 0:50 anyone reckon the driver had done that move a few times? lol and those shunter drivers knew their distances... no messing about 3:00 4:40 let em up have a look. God they were great days. But time moves on and nothing stays the same. Ah well.
@aureol40012 Do you have a copy of this DVD. Been looking for it on ebay. Also looking for ScotRail Diesels if you know where any videos are. Loved the Carlisle to Annan one. Loco haulage on this line from the early eighties my first love of trains.
Nice to see all the spotters on the loco before departure (4.36), can't imagine this happening today, mores the pity. Notice how heavy the Class 40 was - 133 tonnes (4.35); I understand that this hastened the classes demise.
Yes, that's it later in the video at York although on this day it appears to get a loco swap rather than run round. It used to attached to another portion on the outward leg at Edinburgh, the Glasgow portion being shunted on by the Waverley 08. The portiobs split at Edinburgh on the way back. Originally, until the DP2 derailment, it used to run from Pilmoor to Scarborough Road Jcn at Malton, then get dragged round the corner to Malton station by another loco, then to Scarborough. Same route in reverse on the way back to Glasgow.
saw the 40124 on the Glasgow on Whistling Giants , however it's good to see all the footage . Thornaby Rare Beast that I nor the Brother whose had 168 40's , have never had . Surprised 124 never fouled the platform being that big . 124 sounded superb being opened up, ten times better than that Strumming Wagon earlier in the film .Cheers that took me back
I was as withered as you are; the Glasgow-Scarborough was a fairly regular working in the early 80s but not by two 40s! By the way, I sell the full unedited footage we took on a 5 disc dvd. Let me know if interested (its on ebay too).
Great footage from whenever this was taken ❤️❤️❤️
Halcyon days, proper loco and colour, blue & grey stock, semaphore signals
Wish we still had these days, ah well....
at least we have video footage like this. thank you for sharing.
I love seeing all the lads in the cab, I remember when drivers let you do that and even sometimes let you stay in while they run the engine round. Before all the madness of health and safety.
I couldn't have put that better myself, I would like some jobsworth H and S clown come on and argue against it, although the brainwashed bunch would probably throw some statisics at you to rest there case, when I was a signalman all were welcome in my box, never had any problems, some of the older ones thought they knew the job better than you but you get that when they were really into their hobby, and the younger ones were showing an interest rather than causing trouble, or today getting square eyed and brain dead on a computer game, Great days and not that long ago, I don't won't to be getting older but wouldn't want a childhood in this Nanny state that Tony Blair turned us into.
@@paulwilson3083 - 30 years of Tory government and you’re blaming Tony Blair? God you people are thick.
The “madness of health and safety” has prevented thousands of deaths and injuries since 1974. I bet you’d send kids up chimneys if you could.
Wow Dave Saunders what a happy soul you are also a right JOBSWORTH by the sound of it, we had names for people like you on the railway but I’ll refrain from that sort of bad lauguage., cheer up Dave and try and enjoy life, you only get one shot at it.
@@paulwilson3083 Ok Paul, I’ll leave you to your nostalgic longing for the days when men worked 10-hour shifts breaking up stone and concrete with a pneumatic drill, wearing no ear-protection and who went stone deaf before they were 50. Or people like my grandad who worked as a boiler lagger at Vulcan Works and who spent his days cutting up sheets of asbestos with a bandsaw in an open workshop. I never met him, unfortunately, because he died from mesothelioma [asbestosis] before I was born.
Fantastic stuff! Shame we couldn't see more of the two 08s coupled together in motion. Scarborough is a shadow of its former self now, sadly. A 1000 thanks for putting this on.
I lived in Scarborough in the early 1980s, my children were young at that time. We would go from home [Cayton] to watch the trains at Seamer, especially the steam ones.
Over those years we had day trips to Manchester and other places, Mk1 coaches and class 46 locos on the front. It was all so normal, and most enjoyable, back then . . .
What a wonderful video.....those were the days.....drivers were allowed to give cab visits.......York was a favourite of mine then and I made many a sound recording...I may upload someday....best regards....Mark
I needed to know why they don’t dig a tunnel and do an extension for the main line Train so that they can extend the unused abandoned underground train stations. Why couldn’t they use the part D78 Stock train doors on the sides and also restructure the front face of the A60 and A62 stock that includes the class 313, class 314 and class 315 remix and make them all together and also redesign them an overhead line and also make them into Five cars per units and also having three Disabled Toilets on those Five cars per units A60 and A62 stock trains and also convert the A60 and A62 stock trains into a Scania N112, Cummins M11, Volvo B10M, Gardner 6LXB, Gardner LG1200 and Gardner 8LXB Diesel Engines and also put the Loud 7-Speed Voith Gearboxes even Loud 8-Speed Leyland Hydra cyclic Gearboxes in the A60 and A62 stock, class 313, class 314, and class 315 and also modernise the A60 and A62 stock and make it into an 11 car per unit so it could have fewer doors, more tables, computers and mobile phone chargers. A Stock Train and 8 Disabled Toilets on those A stock trains. why couldn’t we refurbish and modernise the Waterloo and city line Triple-Track train tunnel and make it more Larger and extend it to the bank station, making it into a Triple-Track Railway Line so those Five countries such as Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden to convert the waterloo and city line Triple-Track Railway tunnel into a High-Speed Railway lines? The Third Euro tunnel Triple-Track Railway line to make it 11 times better for passengers so they could go from A to B. Then put the modernised 11 car per unit A Stock and put them on a bigger modernised Waterloo and city line Triple-Track train tunnel so it could go to bank station to those Five countries such as Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden. The modernised refurbished 11 cars per unit A stock could be a High Speed The Third Triple-Track Euro Tunnel Train So it is promising and 47 times a lot more possible to do this kind of project if that will be OK for London Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden. oh by the way, could they also tunnel the Triple-Track Railway Line so it will stop from Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire and Essex so that the Passengers will go to Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland and Sweden and also extend the Triple-Track Railway Line from the Bank to Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire and Essex Stations so that more people from there could go to Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden more Easily. Why couldn't they extend the Piccadilly Line and also build brand-new underground train stations so it could go even further right up to Clapton, Wood Street can they also make another brand new underground train station in Chingford and could they extend the Piccadilly Line and the DLR right up to Chingford? All of the classes 150, 155, 154, 117, 114, 105, and 106, will be replaced by all of the Scania N112, Volvo B10M, Gardner 6LXB, Gardner LG1200, Cummins M11 and Gardner 8LXB Diesel Five carriages three disabled toilets are air conditioning trains including Highams Park for extended roots which is the Piccadilly line and the DLR trains. Could you also convert all of the 1973 stock trains into an air-conditioned maximum speed 78 km/hours (48 MPH) re-refurbished and make it into a 8 cars per unit if that will be alright, and also extend all of the Piccadilly train stations to make more space for all of the extended 8 car per unit 1973 stock air condition trains and can you also build another Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive Companies and can they order Every 77 Octagon and Every 37 Hexagon shape LNER diagram unique small no.14 and unique small no.11 Boilers from those Countries such as Greece, Italy, Poland, and Sweden, can they make Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive speeds by up to 147MPH so you can try and test it on the Original Mainline so it will be much more safer for the Passengers to enjoy the 147MPH speed Limit only for HS2 and Channel Tunnel mainline services, if they needed 16 Carriages Per units, can they use those class 55’s, class 44’s, class 40’s and class 43HST Diesel Locomotive’s right at the Back of those 18 Carriages Per Units so they can take over at the Back to let those Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive’s have a rest for those interesting Journeys Please!!, oh can you make all of those Coal Boxes’s 18 Tonnes for all of those 147MPH Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive’s so the Companies will Understand us PASSENGER’S!!! so please make sure that the Builders can do as they are told!!!!!!! And Please do something about these very very important Professional ideas Please? Prime Minister of England, Prime Minister of Australia, Prime Minister of Sweden, Prime Minister of Germany, Prime Minister of Italy, Prime Minister of Poland and that Includes the Mayor of London.
What a great video. Fantastic machines the 40s, the railway was just so interesting back then. Thanks for bringing back some happy memories
I’m so glad these vids bring back memories for so many people.
Wish i could go experience that era, so much variety in engines.
Absolutely superb video! I loved the 03 racing the Peak at the beginning!
Brings back all the good memories when it was worth going out on the mainline! Excellent, Tony, Derby.
What a gem!! Thanks for posting, what great days we had 🤘👍
There is so much to value and reflect in this. The driver wi9th his bag hanging up in the cab, the HST in original colours at York and the 40s of course! I have had a few Class 37s on the long run from Glasgow to York and once had the then Gateshead God of 37250 in fresh blue paint from York to the seaside and back!
Takes me back to being a spotter and thrasher as a youth in Scarborough. Great footage
Great vid. Those were the best years with out a doubt
swearingkevo 1950s were probably the best before beeching
Oh Doctor Beeching look what you’ve done ,
The best years were inevitably the ones when you were between 10 and 20 years old. What’s the betting @Blooga was born around 1940 and you were born in about 1970?
watching this is PURE bliss
The 'How many kids can you get in the cab of a Whistler' competition. Happy memories of those last few years before Health and Safety crushed the fun out of life and when the railway infrastructure was still mostly intact. Fascinating mix of locos and workings. Thanks for posting.
Fabulous. I think I was there that day! Great footage. So sad that the majority of it's all but gone.
has to be one of the top class 40 videos on youtube.
Great archive pictures, very nice document. Thank you very much.
The film quality is outstanding. Happy days!
Nice one! brings them old memories flowing right back!
very nice old film! 👍👍👍
Memories. Superb 'early' video footage. Nice to see one of our local 03s - 03073 (BG) Always thought Scarborough shunter was from York in those days
It was, 03073 was allocated to York in 1983.
@@andrewoverton5170 You wouldn't mind quoting your source would you? I'm sure it was based in Hull at that time, and can find no evidence to the contrary. Cheers!
Proper old Skool Driver.
That Peak was awesome, mind you it did have a head start over the 03 lol. 👍
Brilliant film , just how I remember those days. Time machine please!
My train spotting days. Good old days. I miss them.
So cool to see all them different stock now all you see are northern sprinter DMUs and TPE class 185s
Ikr, As well as the station being tiny
Locals have complained about a few 68s ideling overnight keeping stock warm for morning start of service. ...they would be straight on phone for this lot of movements 😮
Wonderful, thank you.
I would love to know the details of the wagonload freight traffic in the station yard. Cement Aggregates and general merchandise
Wish I had gone back in time when locomotives like this still existed ♥️Wow a class 08 express ,Would love to return to these classic times .Wish I was one of these lucky kiddies being inside a class 40 beast ♥️Health and Safety have ruined it nowadays since 2000
what a lovely vid. happy days,
Makes me sick to think that these days are well and truly gone. Replaced by DMU's and not just here but most of the country now. No more 27's 40's 37's Peaks. Used to love thrashing out of Dundee behind a 27 or my fav' a Class 40, and on the rare occasion a Class 31 to which this day i have a photo of one pulling into Balmossie Halt
The old days are coming back...
You can get Barrow - Carlisle trains hauled by Class 37's on Monday - Saturday
Daily locomotive hauled trains to Yarmouth and Lowestoft
And the Anglia trains to Norwich and Ipswich out of London Liverpool Street
Trek001 There’s loco hauled stock coming back on the york to Scarborough line soon class 68s and mk5s
Not only 37's on the Furness line, we've got 68's too
Robyn's Trains 68s nothing like 37s...
KiNG WiLL // DDYT I know, why do you think I've got a 37 as my channel picture haha, but I still love them, they look so aggressive, they will never come close to the natural charm of the 37, but I still think they deserve recognition.
As a fan of the class 45's 45003 is up there in the top ten but 40124 on a rake of vac's is deffo up in the top 5.. nice video 👍👍
dackes julag cheers mate, that ride on 124 was one of my favourite days on the bash. Did her Scarb-York, then York-Vic for a car to New Mills for 40152 New Mills to Man Picc! Oh, and we had 45003 Leeds to Scarb too!
@TheMudfinger Yes, it is on ebay now.
excellent video👍 those were the days has Scarborough station changed much have they still got the same signals
Signal gantries all gone . . . . alas.
@@EllieMaes-Grandad what a shame part of our heritage gone we have still got some in Kent at deal station and there's some at hastings them lads jumping off the diesel must be around 50 now how time flies
Look at that wee fella whizzing along 0:05!! Those Peaks were beasts.. out and back in no time! 0:50 anyone reckon the driver had done that move a few times? lol and those shunter drivers knew their distances... no messing about 3:00
4:40 let em up have a look. God they were great days. But time moves on and nothing stays the same. Ah well.
Brilliant video Jake :-). I like it :-). The BR class 40's are awesome aren't they? :-). When are you going to start uploading videos again? :-).
I liked the whole thing!
Lots of great stuff. All ao ordinary! Oh for a time machine
Just watching this i realised it is exactly 35 years ago today- Oh for a time machine...
@aureol40012
Do you have a copy of this DVD. Been looking for it on ebay. Also looking for ScotRail Diesels if you know where any videos are. Loved the Carlisle
to Annan one. Loco haulage on this line from the early eighties my first love of trains.
Brilliant stuff! Proper trains :D
Nice to see all the spotters on the loco before departure (4.36), can't imagine this happening today, mores the pity.
Notice how heavy the Class 40 was - 133 tonnes (4.35); I understand that this hastened the classes demise.
The class 45 was the same weight but had more power.
Very good indeed.
Can someone please invent a time machine so l can go back to those days
Brilliant
Which route did this take to Glasgow ?
Stevey Travels via york
Ha - I see you (looking much younger than you do now!) getting out of the cab at about 5 minutes into this vid!
Yes, I like trains, but why 12 yeara old video is in my reccomends?
It is amazimg video by the way!!
The old days show us how we need to run our railways
Yeah, it reversed at york. 40 185 took over from 40 124 on this occassion.
Class 40 + MkI's = REAL RAILWAYS
I assume that's via Manchester and not Leeds-Skipton-Long Drag-Carlisle?
No ECML vis Newcastle to Queen St
Proper railway back then
How right you are.. how many young boys these days yearn to be 'an engine driver'..?
Nothing to drive worth driving.
Was this a season/one-off service or a regular one?
villevirtanen00 Summer season train I think , worked every Saturday from memory. Usually a Peak or a 40 , but can remember seeing a 37 on it.
Which route did the Scarbrough - Glasgow service take? Did it run round at york?
Yes, that's it later in the video at York although on this day it appears to get a loco swap rather than run round. It used to attached to another portion on the outward leg at Edinburgh, the Glasgow portion being shunted on by the Waverley 08. The portiobs split at Edinburgh on the way back. Originally, until the DP2 derailment, it used to run from Pilmoor to Scarborough Road Jcn at Malton, then get dragged round the corner to Malton station by another loco, then to Scarborough. Same route in reverse on the way back to Glasgow.
saw the 40124 on the Glasgow on Whistling Giants , however it's good to see all the footage . Thornaby Rare Beast that I nor the Brother whose had 168 40's , have never had . Surprised 124 never fouled the platform being that big . 124 sounded superb being opened up, ten times better than that Strumming Wagon earlier in the film .Cheers that took me back
good old days b4 anyone had heard of toxic tony blair
@aureol40012 class 40s look simular to 37s
Nice.
It's a class 45!!!!!
What is?
@@aureol40012 it was video
love the comment on the nose of 40124 - indeed all 40's are "best"s
I was as withered as you are; the Glasgow-Scarborough was a fairly regular working in the early 80s but not by two 40s!
By the way, I sell the full unedited footage we took on a 5 disc dvd. Let me know if interested (its on ebay too).
03073....sure that became a birkenhead mollington street one.
Not sure why there's so much fondness these days for the 70s and 80s. I was around then, it was shit!
+Mr Chievous Lost youth.
Not lost enough to not have realised it was shit.
Those days were all we had . . . . at the time. Today there is much more, or much less, depending on your point of view.