0-60 isn't ZERO to 60: the test is FLAWED! | Know it All with Jason Cammisa | Ep. 03
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- Опубликовано: 10 фев 2021
- We all love to go bench-racing, but using car magazine 0-to-60 tests won't tell you what happens in the real world.
The zero-to-60 test isn't actually measuring from a stop, at least not by U.S.-based car magazines. They use a term called "rollout," which comes from the drag-racing world.
Basically, when car magazines record testing numbers, they omit the first foot of travel (or "rollout"), resulting in a time that's more than 0.2 seconds too short. Sometimes as much as a half-second.
Additionally, the techniques that car magazines use to launch cars is brutal, abusive, and sometimes even fatal to the car. All is fair in love, war, and instrumented testing: nobody seems to mind if we blow up a car during testing, so long as we got great numbers in the process.
The bigger issue is that 0-60 is such an important yardstick that it feeds back into the engineering of cars. Manufacturers sometimes make decisions to improve instrumented-testing numbers that come at the expense of real-world acceleration: things like ultra-long first gears or difficult-to-engage launch-control. And when an advantage can be programmed in via software, you can be sure that car companies will cheat, err... optimize for this occurrence.
And now you know.
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I thought there was going to be a clip of Jason racing his mom, until I realized he meant my mom....
lol! My mom drives like a lunatic. I don't think I'd want to race her!
@@JasonCammisa And then you put good tires on her car, so now you don't have a chance. lol!
What does he mean by "mom" ?
@William Hewes it sounded at first like Jason actually drag raced his own mother, but it was actually a "yo mama" joke directed at the viewer...as in he was with my, the viewer's mom last night.
We need the clip of racing mom or it didn’t happen…
I could listen to Jason talk about stuff like this for hours. I'm not sure what that says about me.
You love entertaining facts about cars, and hate the bullshit cultivated by the industry? If so, consider me your spiritual brother.
u gay
Do you know he has a podcast ? go check the carmudgeon show on issimi you won’t regret it
@@lucianomichel2236 Shame they no longer make them on a regular basis, they've become pretty sporadic, what with Cammisa being signed up with Hagerty, now. But the spirit is still the same, the show is still the same, so all good. Eagerly awaiting th Piech Special!!
@@aakar1s Thanks, all you guys. (Except +mse - you can please shut it.) To be honest, lately it's Hyphen's fault we've been doing so few Carmudgeons - he's slammed with work. Poor guy,.
FINALLY someone doing this. Go Jason 💪
I love a car with good instantaneous power in the 2000-4500 rpm range. Buzzboxes that need to be at >6500 rpm with lots of lag to get decent acceleration get old really quick.
My favorite magazine 0-60 test is when I think car and driver wasn’t getting a good result from a mazdaspeed3 and they called the engineers and Mazda was like “side step the clutch at redline. Don’t worry, it can take it.”
...and shift 1500 rpm below redline thereafter. That car was a mother to test.
@@JasonCammisa the Mazdaspeed3 is one of those cars that genuinely is better with a tune and not just on the dyno. A quality aftermarket tune with no otber changes to the car (aside from a rear motor mount for the wheel hop) completely changes the driving experience in any situation. I have no idea why Mazda tuned it from the factory the way they did.
I was thinking of that exact test during this video! I owned one of those....fun car.
I thought that was the wrx
@@Bones12x2 when I had one I never did wind up putting a tune on it, but the amount it woke the hell up from just a short ram intake was fucking absurd.
This is why I like to race people from a 5mph roll in my honda odyssey
When I was in highschool roughly 20yrs ago I drove from the east to the west side of Washington state, in my mom's minivan.
I remember passing a couple kids in Honda accords ....they had to pass me back. Not sure they expected to hit 115 to do it though.
Matthew Way Only car faster than a rental is you mom’s car when you’re 17. I can attest to that
if you only play the games you know you will win, you will always win
Rolling races will always be won by RWD cars on dry pavement, 0 to 60 will always be won by AWD.
@@jose7777777777777777 I can attest. It did hit its speed limiter. No car that I've owned since has come close
How do I give this more likes, one is insufficient. GREAT presentation of the subject. Less time racing benches, more time racing our moms.
Ha! Get your friends to like. Oh, and then get their moms to like, too. :P
@@JasonCammisa comedian first... then journalist.
leave a comment, it is way more impactful than just 1 like
What about the lag or poor throttle response in many modern cars. My Camry Hybrid doesn't have this issue, much more instant responsiveness than many turbo buzzboxes.
There's so much James May pendanticness and Ryan Reynolds loquatiousness in this LOL
Not wishing to be pedantic but it's pedantry, not "pendanticness". Pendanticness, if it was a real word, would be the state of wearing pendants.
@@nickturner2813 Sorry I'm not fucking shakespeare......
@@LeoVillacorte That would be ackward...he's dead you know VBG
A long time ago -- the late 80s to be precise I always wondered how the early 70s Porsche 911 turbo could go 0 to 60 in 4 seconds flat. Well in the late 80s I was fortunate enough to work with an attorney that just happened to own a Porsche 911 Turbo. I always wondered how you could get to 60 from a dead stop and shift between 1st and 2nd. And that mystery was solved when the attorney took me for a ride. Back then the Porsche 911 Turbo was a 4 speed and not a 5 speed. That car did 75mph in first gear! To this day I'm still amazed at how ferocious that car accelerated and how undramatic it was doing so. The ass end just squatted down and it just shot to 75mph like most cars shoot to 25.
@@BubbaSmurft All I can say is an attorney I worked with had a Porsche 911 Turbo -- I believe it was a 1974 model. It was white with a whale tail and I don't care whether you believe me or not. It accelerated just as I described.
@@BubbaSmurft haven’t driven a 930, but have a 944 turbo and it’s literally identical. Obviously 5 speed but the thing makes about as much power as a dust bowl era tractor until 4 grand and then squats like a dog having a bowel movement and spools like a cracked up rat on a hamster wheel. It’s like Porsche just decided the more lag the better with their old turbo cars.
@@Bazzookie there's actually a pretty good reason for this - coming from a former fellow 944T owner. due to packaging reasons, Porsche puts the turbo on the intake side of the engine - when you look at a 944T's exhaust manifold, it becomes obvious that the header curls under the oil pan and goes all the way across to the turbo. the charge air then still has to go a full 360 degree loop through the intercooler, to arrive at the intake manifold. Such a long charge air tract means that exhaust impulses have to travel that much further to spool the turbo, get intercooled and finally fed to the engine - the opposite of modern 'hot-V' mentality. Compare this with a modern, quick-spooling BMW N54 or similar - the turbo is almost fused to the header right next to the exhaust ports, the charge air then immediately hits the chargecooler and goes into the intake. this long charge air tract contributes to horrid spool characteristics. add that to the journal bearing KKK turbos they used, and you have lag city.
@@Bazzookie Best description of a car acceleration, ever!
Jason is back at the top of automotive journalism, how dearly we missed you!
IMO, using 0-60 as a gauge for a cars effective performance stopped being valuable as soon as it was common for cars to do it in under 6 seconds.
YES1 I keep thinking we're gonna need a new benchmark to handle the upcoming under two second hypercars. Or we could just shut up and drive.
5 to 100 mph or 1/4 mile tests are much better.
It should be 0-65 so we know how fast we can get up to freeway speed
@@matt25675 0-100 makes the most sense aa the 70-100 is usually where modern cars that ate fast really pull away
Its probably a shorter time but 20-70 would be a better measurement imo. Basically how quickly does it go up the on-ramp.
The reverse is true as well, in the UK when the hot hatch thefts were through the roof in the 1990s, make car makers sand bagged their cars with passengers and luggage to make them slower so the insurance was cheaper
The Peugeot GTI-6 306 does 0-60 in officially in 8.5
However its closer to 7.1
That's fabulously batsht.
@@JasonCammisa Aye
Aye, the batsht crazy car insurance caused it, the Escort Cosworth was £25k new, the insurance was £25k, anything Cosworth on it would get stolen, and it spilled over on to anything remotely fast, affordable and fun.
Many auto journalists here were convinced Ford was fibbing about horsepower figures on its first Probe GT. They all thought the car CLEARLY made more than the quoted 145hp, but alas, Ford kept the figure.
Interesting
@@terryorcutt8739 Sounds like they used Porche math.
Thank you. David E. Davis valiantly tried to get rid of the tyranny of 0-60 when he started Automobile Magazine in '86. I think Csaba Csere's 5-60 invention was a great addition to explain what is really going on. Besides, that solitary test doesn't convey how fun day to day a car is to drive. If it did, Mazda would've never sold a gazillion Miatas.
Very interesting about how the timing light on a drag strip is tripped by the back side of the tire, not the front. Also about how that initial foot of motion takes 0.3 or 0.4 seconds, which does not appear in the final time. This is very helpful in understanding these numbers.
The accuracy of a GPS is typically worse, though some units can do plus or minus 4 inches, for an uncertainty interval of 8 inches, and some research grade, units can go below that in special classes of application. Accelerometers too, are affected by the vibration or hop of the vehicle during the count down. The advantage of the present system is that it ignores the initial 'hop' of the vehicle, and it is easily replicated. Since cars on a drag strip typically hop around an inch or so, up and down, forward and backward, and in rotation about the center of mass, establishing where the car is 'located' at the start tends to be a weighted average kind of problem.
On another note, you might want to re-think attempting a German accent. You are not even close and it undermines your presentation. The German accent is a on a par with putting your finger in your nose.
Great lesson! This contextualizes so much now. You’re the man, Jason!
So nice to have someone in the auto industry stating facts free from all the "influencers" BS.
I think the 0-100 kph is the most pointless test possible. 80-120 or 80-180 is the most important. For overtaking maneuvers and high speed motorway acceleration.
I learned that the hard way over 20 years ago when: Off a kind of normal traffic light start, I was confidently rolling-up on a (Supposed to be slow) late 90's V6 Mustang in my Saab 900 SE Turbo and got smoked...
Hagerty, what ever you do NOT get rid of Jason. This man makes learning fun haha. I may have watched all his videos already...twice. You found the right person to do these videos
I’ve stopped looking at 0 - 60 times years ago when purchasing cars. Now I only look at track times on the Nurburgring. It’s a lot more accurate. 😉
I missed this man. Motor trend went down the shitter once this man left. The passion and charisma in his voice makes it for me, best car reviewer
This is why Car and Driver's 5-60mph test is my go to for actual acceleration capabilities of a car
Not many car reviewers (if any) are this good at explaining technical details of the car industry in fun and easy ways to understand. Well done @JasonCammisa , keep it up.
We need more Jason Cammisa! Fantastic video. Thanks Hagerty!
My Favorite RUclipsr !!! I really feel smart after watching these
This has become my absolute favorite series. Keep it up!
Really enjoying this series. Thank you.
Keep up the great work.
Not to mention they take out every piece of weight too. Door panels, floor matts, entire front and back seats and even ash trays. They do all that for milage ratings too.
I literally live for these know it alls now
Quickly becoming a favorite short on a favorite channel!
Can't say how much I enjoy this series... Thanks!
Professor Cammisa has spoken! And it is good!
I subscribed just for Jason , loving all three shows!! We want more!
Such great videos. Knowledge, production, everything. Keep up the good work guys. 👍
Here in England we had a hot hatch in the 80s called the Meastro Turbo. It was generally agreed that the press cars had the boost turned up so high that the cars would be dead by the time they gave them back.
But the reviews were great. 👍👍
It turns out they rusted away before being given back. 😂
Outstanding. Thank you, Jason.
If I'm not mistaken the the measurement was originally meant to indicate how satisfactorily your new car could get you from a stop to traffic speed. A practical concern at a time when a higher end car was differentiated from an entry level economy car by just being able to reasonably reach a decent speed without being a dangerous obstacle to moving traffic.
Today, even the Mitsubishi mirage can do this adequately and irs probably the slowest weakest actual car for sale in America today.
With that being the case, the measurement doesn't really serve a purpose because no motorsport on Erath is concerned with 0-62 at the expense of all else, and nobody in their right kind is regularly trying to join traffic within 3.2 seconds.
Honestly speaking, your videos are the best thing since top gear. Keep going forever
Way to get a new perspective on real world acceleration! Excellent topic Jason, please keep them flowing!
I have a W210 E55 estate car, I have had a few people say that "350bhp isn't very much these days" but out on the road in the real world the car is still plenty fast enough, lot's of torque and no lag make it great fun to drive despite the gearbox.
This is the best new car series around. Nice work!
I've these so much. Keep them coming!
ND2 Miata owner checking in. I've always been leery of instrumented performance tests, but I simply cannot imagine the abuse that must have been doled out to obtain the published acceleration data for this car. Sub six second 0-60 times must generate some truly pungent odors.
To be honest, the ND is pretty easy to launch, if memory serves. Dump the clutch at 4000 rpm; and man does that shifter let you grab gears in a hurry. Congrats on your ND2 - wouldn't matter if that thing is a 5.8 or 15.8 to 60, it's a riot.
@@JasonCammisa Thanks, Jason. You remain the best automotive journalist working today and I may or may not have pulled the trigger on the car at the recommendation of your Instagram review. Sway bars and coil overs have mitigated any shortcomings one might find in the platform and I'm a very happy boy, indeed.
As always... Epic knowledge!! thank you!
Jason Cammisa is an automotive gem. Any video with him on it is worth watching.
We once measured a WRX 225hp and a civic typeR around 270-280hp. He was slightly faster but the WRX drove one car length further. Most people absolutely didn't understand it. Slower but faster whaaaat. Mostly to this point after that traction related complicity for some the civic is in the faster first place zone.
My Father, may he rest in peace, preached this 30 years ago. Of course, he was an old drag racer who actually drag raced and could rattle of Mopar Performance part numbers in his sleep...
The world needs more Jason Cammisa.
Jason, thank god you're back!
Welcome back Jason! Educational + Entertaining = JC ...
You should keep this guy as he's knowledgeable, engaging and fun to listen to.
These are great, keep it up!
Found you through Everyday Driver. Subscribed because I like what I saw. Thank you
I wondered about this for a long time myself. Glad I understand it more.
Keep up the good work buddy. Thanks.
Jason saving the world, one episode at a time..and this why it's very important to test drive cars, ideally more than once, before purchasing and not go by the numbers in the brochure.
Lots of truth there. That's why some cars are animals at the track, but suck in the real world. Jason rules!
Jason Camissa...... killing it. Again.
Great explanation! As usual 😎
LOL That's pretty good! I stopped worrying about those tests when 1st 2nd and 3rd only paint the road. Now I go by how big the clouds are or if the telephone poles can blur. In Mexico of course.
Great video!
One thing that was neglected, When 0-60 is talked about in car advertisements and magazine articles, what is meant is 0 MPH to 60 MPH, while dragstrips measure (and publish on time slips) is 0-60 “foot” times, which of course is different. I’ve raced at a lot of drag strips, and none of them indicated/listed a 0-60 MPH time on a time slip.
Great content, but thumbed up for the Mk2 Scirocco diecast zoomed around in the beginning. :)
My first thought was “where the hell did he get the sweet Scirocco die cast”. 👌
Holy crap, I know way to much! Great job as always - Thanks.
I love this segment
Yeah he's great
And that’s why your are the best. I heard one time Matt Farah in an episode of Smoking Tire telling same thing about 5-60mph. Btw, he said he heard it from you Mr. Cammisa.
I remember Jason at one point made a big deal about the 5-60 time of the Volvo polestar because it was just about as quick as the 0-60 time meaning it always felt fast. Cool stuff.
Another nice episode.
0 to 60 should also include from a stop light with foot on brake, foot off gas, to indicate real world driving results.
Thank Jason. Interesting as much as funny as usual. Have a good day! :-)
Yes, optimisation, it's a well known secret to auto enthusiast. I'm glad you addressed this. However there's one exception.
Porsche.
Love these!
My housing development enters the local highway in a 55mph zone, and many people are going a fair shake faster, during heavy traffic flow, it can take up to 5 minutes for a decent opening to pull out safely. Having a good 0-60 can mitigate that. If your car takes 9 seconds to hit traffic speed, you have to wait. If you can rip off a 5 second or better you'll have more safe options, assuming you know how to drive. A good 0-60 is a very important factor for me when choosing a car.
Love this guy.
Already a long tome subscriber...kinda wish I could subscribe again! This new stuff is great!
great video
Main reason anyone should pay attention to 0-60 is how well a car gets its power down especially from a busy junction or roundabout And this happens from a standstill not rolling at 5mph. Also a better way is simply to have the revs at or near peak torque rather than redlining it and hoping the car will last. Thanks for the insight Jason.
Bro!!!
NEVER STOP KNOW IT ALL!!!!!
More Cammisa! :)
Awesome job
I really like this series
I loved your E30 wheel
🟦⬜️
⬜️🟦
LOVE this stuff
I just started watching these, and I’m sure I will enjoy them, but both episodes are not surprising in the result - they are surprising in that someone misunderstood or actually thought the original premise was a valid point. (The other was an AWD car giving 100% torque to one wheel)….
I’ll keep watching!
It's Cammisa Thursday!
This dude is very funny! Love you, Man. Since I saw you at motor trend
Great info. Thx!:)
When I ordered my RWD Taycan, I wss told that that was the worst Taycan because its 0-60 is too slow for the price. I am very surprised how cars specs and performance have became the decisive factor for many
I'm pretty sure I didn't understand everything you explained in this video, but I still like the way you feed us with knowledge. Plus, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna race mommy tomorrow!
Good stuff.
0-100 should be the new standard.
I gave up on 0-60 a long time ago. Blasting out of Turn 7 at Road Atlanta seems like a more worthwhile test / certainly much more fun...
Great stuff Jason, we need MORE videos from you and your team. Say hi to Jack Baruth for me, BTW
Here in Germany a new benchmark is the 100-200kph time.
0-100 is still the number one benchmark but 100-200 is just as important now.
Greetings from Germany 🇩🇪
And we don't have any kind of rollout.
Because Germany is only country where 100-200kph acceleration is relevant to real world situation(Autobahn)
Special shout out to the E30 ‘iS” basket weave wheel prop. I love you Jason!
really good content
Issue with roll out using staging lights is there are a front light and a rear light, hence the strategies of deep and shallow staging. The timer starts when rear light is broken after the front light has been tripped and not when the front light is cleared.
neat i guessed the problem and why it would be relevant
the explanation of how it came to be was cool
Everything is "optimized" now. 0-60, MPG even emissions testing. I think those "dips in the power" like the BRZ engine are emissions related to better lower CO2 ratings. "Real World" numbers were never close...except for VW TDI. You go the MPG driving normal, unlike other cars that require downhill and a breeze to get close to 40mpg.
Hagerty are ripping at the moment. This content is pure quality
This guy is brilliant