I'm pretty sure another reason is because of the amount of gears you can have. A 9 speed manual is probably very difficult to use in a regular car, which is why the highest amount of gears we've seen is 7 in the Corvette C7. If we take the Mustang GT, the manual has 6 gears and the automatic has 10, so they can have shorter gears for acceleration and long gears for MPG.
Yeah, this seems like the more obvious answer. But I guess we have seen enough "cheating on tests with the computers" business to think the "cheating" scenario is also driving it.
I'm also pretty sure that once those clutch fingers wear down on an automatic, you ain't moving anywhere near as quick, I know from experience with my jeep and Lumina, cuz my current car is a 6 speed Forte and this bih quick
I would beg to differ. I get far more pleasure from a DSG than a manual. It's epic having those gear changes happen in milliseconds at your command. Manuals are slow, clunky and just plain boring in comparison. Each to their own but I've never understood why manuals are so adored. They are a chore not a pleasure!
@@brodiejones2028 Manual is more of a joy to drive if you know how to use it, it becomes instinctive, much more fun driving a car than driving a go-cart.
@@chizorama I'm 63. Grew up with manuals. Raced rally cars with manual gear boxes. I endured them, never enjoyed them. Till I got a DSG. Then the fun started! I rode and raced motorcycles. Love changing gears on a motorcycle probably because it is much more like a DSG. Safe to say I'm not going to start enjoying manuals now!
"If you buy a sports car with an automatic you deserve to suffer." We love you Jason! I turned on the captions and had to screenshot you with that line!
I love that Mazda punishes you for buying the automatic. Oh, they'll still sell you one, but you don't get the good suspension, brakes, differential and chassis bracing.
I have a Sentra SE-R Spec V. It's the only way to get all that stuff in a Sentra, and it only comes with a 6-speed manual. The gearing is pretty short, too. 35mph in 3rd gear is about 3000rpm. 1st-5th are similar to my 1987 CRX with 1st gen integra engine, but the Sentra has a lot more torque (and a lot more weight).
@@insomniacbritgaming1632 which companies tho? Other than the Miata and the GT86, I couldn’t think of any car that’s faster in manual than they are in Auto.
In forza I would often make overpowered cars by adding the 6 speed transmission mod and adjusting the gear ratios so that each shift is passed peak torque and approaching peak power. The one car this didn’t really work for was the integra type r. It came from the factory at optimal ratios.
@@Mernom it actually does, you can change the HUD to show speed, RPM, tire wear, torque and hp. you can watch the torque spike and then fall off as you stay in the gear.
Engineering Explained did an episode recently on this as well. I agree that they are stacking the deck against the manual transmission, but a note to keep in mind is that the automatics in most cases are 8-10 speeds (edit: at the time of this post) as opposed to most manuals having 6 or 7. This means that they can use more lower gears to accelerate while still having a high top speed. Just another note for the conversation. I hope they stop "trying" to kill the manual transmission because I hope to own more in my future. Right now I've got an automatic that just doesn't do it for me.
After 40 years of manual only in my household I was forced to move to an automatic 4 years ago (replacing the last 4-door manual sedan made by Ford) with an automatic 4-door sedan. Thought about getting the Chevy SS but didn't (my loss).
Yep. Even if you ignore the consistency at launch and ease of launch of an automatic, the manual is still giving up anywhere from 1-4 gears vs a modern automatic. And ive never seen anyone that can shift a manual as fast as a well set up auto. Period.
Afaik DCT's are still heavier. More importantly manuals have fewer moving parts and all else being equal can be much more reliable (assuming a reasonably competent driver). I doubt EV's will have the same problem, but I much prefer how predictable the throttle response (consistent power for the same speed/rpm/throttle) is with a manual.
With a manual, it's not just about speed; it's about control - the clutch is a tool to that end. To drive a car with a manual transmission gracefully over a twisting and hilly road is pure pleasure.
True, but a throttle-laggy and rev-hanging engine is pure Purgatory to drive with a stick. I drive stick because I enjoy the art of driving with precision. Double-clutching/rev matching my downshifts , even though I don't need to, because I can (and it's smoother). And I at least rev-match my upshifts, so zero drivetrain lash. (And, of course, speed-shifting it once a month, just in case the hydraulics take a dump again, so I'm in practice.) Is it necessary? Heck no! Is it satisfying? Oh hell yea! Now, I briefly owned an F250 with the plug-eating 5.4, and throttle-by wire. And it took AGES to do a decent upshift with all the rev hang! (The truck would slow down almost as fast as the revs dropped.) To the point that I gave up. And every sloppy upshift, with noticeable drivetrain lash, and engine slowdown, just... *ate at my soul.* In a piddling, miniscule way. (Oh, and forget blipping the throttle for upshifts!) Everyone bitches about stop-and-go. Not me! But electronic throttles were invented by someone who HATES the act of driving.
Sounds like a nightmare. Then again, while I like cars, I don't care for this sort of stuff. I like performance, and if that comes in the form of an auto, I'll prefer that. I can drive manual, I just don't care to.
There’s another reason for this which Jason left out. Of course Ford can have shorter ratios when they have 10 gears in the Auto vs 6 in the manual and 8 in the Porsche vs 7 or 6 in the Manual. Thereby using the same final drive you can have shorter ratios between gears. The Mazda is a 6 speed whether you get an Auto or a Manual, and the manual is also lighter compared to the Auto so it should be faster
He left out a ton of factors, but yes, the final drive is a HUGE factor and makes up for the lower gearing on MTs. That and ATs now have 7-10 gears, so they have to spread the gearing out a lot more, which forces them to have higher geared 1-3 or 1-4. Also, launching an MT adds a ton of time to a 0-60 or even 1/4. The time to shift + launch is the BIGGEST reason why MTs are behind in 0-60. Transmission gearing deficit is offset by better FD ratios. Furthermore, if MTs have aggressive 1-2 or 1-3 ratios, they'd be worse to 60, since they'd struggle to put power down when launching. This whole argument by Jason is nonsense.
Exactly, kind of dumbfounded he didn't mention that little tid bit. Since these 8,9,10 autos are newly developed, there could have just as easily been 8,9,10 manuals developed. Problem is, they don't sell to justify the R&D.
@@nathanaelcole8466 10, 12 speed manuals are only available in commercial/Freight vehicles, most you’ll see in a car is a 7 speed manual. Keep in mind rowing through that many gears in manual car is usually counter productive as you’d have even more “shift time loss” under hard acceleration and would be pain in daily driving and you’d have even more clutch wear.
@@jonathanhidalgo4591 but most of the extra gears are OD gears. What you do is you buy a lower engine speed cruising with 10 gears but allow yourself the aggressive gearing down low. For a 1/4 mile run, it chould mean one more gear change not three or four.
@@IT_Farhan Both even offer different ratios from the factory. My 2015 GT with 3.73s gets moving pretty well, but the new 10 speed cars will still destroy it. Over on engineering explained channel he actually made a video on why the 2018+ manual mustangs are slower than the old ones (hint: gearing).
The other thing is that initially the PDK had 1 more gear than the manuals. The 997 and early 991s had 6-speed manuals and 7-speed PDKs. The PDK could afford to make the gears significantly shorter without losing out on speed.
@@crazeguy26 No i dont also you can get mild backfire on almost any petrol cari n certain rpm range, it will cackle and pop too and sound of engine moaning during clutching especially more slippy and slower one....you just make music with a manual automatics ruin it by default. I will always take that over car akwardly farting and having nonexistant clutchingintervals that sound really unnatural
The MX-5’s six-speed manual has no overdrive gear. It is a true close-ratio stick shift. Result? In the twisties you'll always be able to find the right gear. The Civic Type R, on the other hand, devotes its two top gears to overdrive droning. Better for the MPG rating, Don’ cha know?
I wasn't going to bother making a comment about my Fit with all the fancy sports car talk, but having had an '07 AT Fit and then an '08 MT Fit the Auto was geared far, far taller and is an absolute dog in acceleration in every gear. But the AT's 5th gear was a monster making freeway speeds far lower in the RPM. The '08 MT was spritely (I'd never use the word "fast" around it) especially in 2nd and 3rd as well as 4th a bit before it ran out of breath above 5k. I'm sure the later generation CVTs were even more impacted.
@@devonking5710 he's talking about the gentlemen's agreement, which there absolutely WAS, in the 80s/90s regarding limiting engine output to 280PS (276 SAE HP).
@@devonking5710 The agreement was with cars, not bikes. The idea was to make sure car sales were more on the merit of the car, so they all got a chance to sell, versus consumers just going with the fastest car- something I wish these super and hypercar people would do. Of course they didn't strictly hold themselves to the agreement.
Yes, but the gears are not there for 0-60, they are there for EPA noise and MPG regs, the 0-60 is a side effect, and the same EPA regs force manuals to have longer gearing ruining the 0-60
@@cirian75 With 10 gears however, you can have a big overall spread with reasonable steps between each gear. So yes they were developed mainly for economy but they serve well as a performance too. The transmission is the same between trucks and cars. So what helps a Mustang off the line also helps an F150 get a trailer moving from a stop.
@@ananthprem8804 EPA doesn't force anyone to use tall gearing, it's a tactic found by automakers. EPA is the wet blanket, who doesn't like anyone having fun. They have different methods to test noise and emission stuff for manual and automatic. It's something like, manuals have to floor the accelerator in 3rd gear and automatics only have to apply some amount of throttle without the transmission kicking down the gears. Pretty discriminatory if you ask me.
Flawless explanation of the currently depressing situation of the near extinction of manuals. The Miata being one of the few going against the flow puts a smile on my face 🏁
It's a lot to do with all of the safety systems that they are putting on cars these days. Most of them, like adaptive cruise control, don't work well on manuals.
I suspected the auto's having shorter gears helped. But, what I thought was working well for the recent auto's is that whole 8/9/10 gears thing. I figured they are so quick because the shifts are so fast / with continuous power so you can have 2-3 shifts to 60 / max that wheel torque without much cost in shifting time. I had no idea that the strategy initially was related to fuel economy with the opposite of that equation working against the sticks.. . I don't care. I'm not a drag racer, both my cars are sticks, my wife drives the slushbox.
Yeah I was somewhat leaning towards the higher amount of gears, but cheating the EPA and sound levels makes sense as well. I think a lot of people that like manuals stateside generally have manual cars with crazy long gears. Then we also had manufacturers that know magazines like 0-60. I think it was only Subaru at one point that needed a third shift before 60 and everyone else geared around it and the Subaru looked much slower by that metric. It's funny the strange superficial forces that can push product developers in weird ways.
@@jinxtacy the GD chassis Subaru STI was geared short enough that it needed a 2-3 shift right before hitting 60 mph (2004-2006 at least... I think 2007 was when they lengthened some gears, but I want to say it was only 4th-6th, can't remember exactly). But that was also influenced by the gears being spec'ed according to the original 2.0-liter engine, which outside of North American redlined at 8,000 rpm rather than the 7,000 of the 2.5-liter (which was also a product of emissions regs, in this case cold-start emissions regs, since the cast pistons of the existing 2.5-liter bottom end could run tighter piston-to-wall clearances which reduced cold-start emissions compared to the wider clearances needed for the forged pistons in the JDM 2.0-liter STI). With the higher, original redline, the 2-3 shift would have been after 60 instead of before.
@@jsquared1013 Thank you for sharing your knowledge. That makes a lot of sense. I never really thought about the 2.0 potentially having a higher redline. It makes sense though.
this would be great knowledge if I was in a position to buy a new car, but since I buy my cars 20 years old and with 99 problems I pick manual every time so at least that doesn't give me problems
20 year old automatic transmissions are often bulletproof, especially in the US where the manufacturers did not have to cheat the customers that the oil in their transmission is made of some magical compound that does not deteriorate EVER and there's a better chance of buying one that was properly maintained.
As a motorcycle guy I’m completely mystified as to why people would buy sports cars without manual transmissions. Getting the revmatch right on the downshift or selecting the right gear for corner exit is insanely enjoyable and satisfying especially after you’ve messed a few up. Makes you feel like you’ve earned it.
Many people today prefer to buy prestige over earn it. Values have changed. And after learning what i have today I have one more reason to build my own car. Nothing beats manual control by a skilled amd knowledgeable individual
@@David.. What really kills me about my Nissan Maxima (300hp) isn't so much the goddamned fake shifts, but the fact that they didn't bother to simply have an off switch for the God damned fake shifts. I hate those fake shifts so so much. Thankfully, it's just my comfortable cruising vehicle. For fun I like my gen 3 Hayabusa...
Im faster in a automatic going around corners than a manual. I can also brake later into a corner without thinking about using a clutch i can focus more on driving and cornering.
Nice video, had no idea about this, but it comes to my mind that manuals are usually 6 gears plus reverse, most automatics now at days come with 7 to 10 gears which may help explain why they use shorter gearing
@@ItsDaJax EPA has nothing to do with cars minus smog. Viper passed that, so your point bout EPA is dumb. You could turn off TCS and I was not aware of SCS in a Viper. So another ignorant remark. They are not great cars to live with, probably why they didn't sell all that well. They are however a good second weekend/track car. Big government didn't kill the viper, Dodge did.
@@Deontjie 10 gear automatics aren't anything special, and would not have more expensive repairs (unproportionally) compared to any other automatic. Planetary gears are just nicely scalable.
@@Adlore Planet gears needs a belt which is not reliable yet. Maybe next year. Each gear in an auto-box needs an expensive solenoid. Not costly to manufacture, just expensive to buy.
I've owned an Alfa Romeo Giulia for 8 months and already miss the stick. Looking very seriously at the GR86 as our 2nd car, the wife can keep the automatic.
@@normandy1140 I want a lighter car, so it's down to the ND2 or GR86, maybe a used BRZ if the new one isn't to my liking. I just got a dog, so the Miata might not work.
I drive an automatic truck for 10 hours a day about 2 years now,but i would rather prefer changing 16 gears and splits all day long.totally stupid working especially in uphills or corners.
This reminds me of a situation many years ago that was sort of the opposite regarding emission standards. I had two nearly identical cars, but one was a manual and one was an automatic. They both offered 29mpg on the window sticker. The automatic had an EGR valve, but the manual didn't. Apparently the manual transmission was a slightly more efficient powertrain than the automatic, so they had to slap a bandaid on the slushbox to get it to match.
Yep, old VW 1.9 TDIs often had EGR coolers (allowing more egr) for the automatic cars but the manuals just had a standard EGR.. common mod was to remove the EGR cooler which could fail and leak, or remove the egr entirely.
VW Group change a fair bit when going for an auto, they used to give rear disk brakes, hill hold and ESP for free on some of their smaller models with an auto. Some makers do very little but some use different ECU tunes or just decide to use a certain engine with the auto. Front suspension is one thing often changed, diesel model springs are sometimes used. Slushboxes need larger and better vented brakes but some manufacturers didn't bother. Some need better alternator or better cooling too
@@vukashin88 Capitalism is to blame for the SUV/crossover epidemic but I don't think it's responsible for the 911 not passing noise regulations or companies designing vehicles to be best on the test cycle, not in the real world or according to consumer demand. In that case it's these specific regulations by government.
@@imnotusingmyrealname4566 Its lazy engineering. Porsche has decided the easiest way to pass the drive by test is to flub the transmission. Mazda decided the best way to pass the test was make the car quiet. Porsche should have spent more time researching better (active and passive) noise reduction technologies rather than go for the quick fix. Engineers are paid to solve problems. There are many ways to solve this problem, they are using the wrong solution.
And if you are drag racing a Porche from a dead stop your not using the car for what it was designed for. Instead of 0-60 non sense i'd like to see how they compare at track speeds, which is rarely a drag race from a dead stop.
@@JohnnyAFG81 Because, they aren't going to sink a dime into R&D on products that less than 10% of the driving populous will even be able to drive. Might be even less at 5% of drivers that can drive manuals. You're gonna have to accept that we are a dying breed.
@@shane8915 What is sad is your 100% right. Everyone is so concerned with lap times and millisecond shifts with PDK’s and DCT that they have forgotten the mechanical attachment rowing gears has. With an automatic your being driven, with a manual you are the drive.
Porsche’s current manuals are really long geared. In Australia, with 110kph speed limits, you can only legally redline a manual Porsche (any model) in first gear. A Boxster is going 18kph over the country’s maximum speed limit at redline in second gear. They are too tall to be fun anymore.
Absolutely loved this video! Now we need to know how and where we can change our Porsche gears to fix the lousy ratios. Additionally, Mazda has once again proved why they deserve much better status in the car world than they do.
The 911 S PDK has an extra gear, that's why it's shorter, and faster. Mazda just doesn't have the money to build a fancy PDK for their lowest selling vehicle or the incentive. Porsche races their 911s in so many GT series around the world and need to have a gearbox that competes with Ferrari, Merc, etc. Mazda just races against other Mazdas generally so they don't have the incentive. The PDK is just an amazing gearbox.
"Additionally, Mazda has once again proved why they deserve much better status in the car world than they do." Ish. They did pigheadedly refuse to make a hot hatch Mazda 3, even though it's likely it would've blown its competition out of the water with that interior. Still salty about that.
You can pay a third party shop to replace the hearing, but it’ll cost you serious money. Thousands upon thousands of dollars. Worth it, I’d say, but quite a lot to drop into a car
This is absolutely ridiculous. This needs to be known worldwide because people just think that dual clutch is our faster because of the shifting but it’s about the gearing too! How is this not talked about already?
One thing to note: if the manual ratios matched the auto/DCT, there'd be significantly more (manual) shifting involved in getting to a given speed. In that, the auto/DCT still has an advantage due to the faster shifting. Imagine a performance car with short, tight gearing in a manual transmission... it would be almost like a dump truck, with 2-3 (manual) shifts occurring before you cleared an intersection while on the street.
Maybe if you are comparing seriously under powered cars. Anything with enough power to be reasonably fun to drive would be traction limited with gearing that low. In most cases unless you are gearing for well over 150mph then a 5 or 6 speed is more than enough. the 6-10sp autos are not helping performance by having more gears, it is all done for economy, keeping the out of throttle cruising rpm at whatever their target is for that. If best economy is at 2200rpm you might be able to get within 100rpm of that with a 8sp where you might only be able to get within 300rpm of it with the 5sp. Or at 75mph that might put a 5sp at like 3200rpm and way off that economy target where an 8sp has effectively 3 over drive gears to bring the rpm down. When it comes to performance its better to look at them as having multiple over drive gears or as having enough gearing for 170mph+. 0-60 either transmission would likely only use 1st and 2nd, or 0-100 3rd additionally. Ideal gearing will always be decided by matching torque at the wheels to available traction for first gear, after that its on what is the peek power rpm of the engine and how wide is the power band. if you have a very high revving engine or one with a very narrow power band you will need closer ratios to keep the engine in that power band, for most cars with a redline around 7000rpm and ideal power band from about 5000-6200rpm either a 5 or 6 speed is ideal and weather one vs other comes down to how much power do you have both in what the 1st gear ratio would be and also to where top speed would end up. That however does not consider mpg or what rpm you end up with in high gear cruising down the highway, this is the only reason new autos are now 6-10speeds, that or in the case of luxury cars they drive smoother short shifting.
I think it's worth adding that most DCT's are 7 or 8 speed these days, which allows shorter gears. It'd be too much to ask a regular driver change so many gears so often manually, but obviously this isn't an issue with an automatic. For instance, the 1st gear in our VW DSG 7 speed gearbox is so short, the car uses it just momentarily on flat roads, unless you floor it from standstill. You could literally drive without 1st gear most of the time if it was a manual.
Having a manual is more about control. Yes the new automatics are superior but you just don’t get the same driving experience with one. I collect Corvette’s, and I’ve owned every generation except a C1. I’ve always bought manuals. I recently bought a 2021 C8 8speed auto. Wow!!! This transmission rocks. It’s much superior to the 7speed manual in the C7 which I also own. But I won’t get rid of my manual Vetts.
@@Jakeman302 I own a C2 currently and I’ve owned a C3 and 2 C4’s plus a C5 Z06 and a C7 Z06 but no C1 unfortunately. I like to get a C6 Z06 then I’ve owned every generation except a C1.
Once automatics got paddle shifters that forced a hard shift, control as a reason for manual disappeared. Even non-pdk slushboxes could outperform manuals, shift speeds were faster and lockup torque converters tightened up the drivetrain.
Great job on this video. Still love manuals over anything else even these days. With all the crap that’s been added onto cars these days it’s any wonder we’ve become lazy with a prime example being turn signals which people driving are using less and less when turning.
Incredibly great information. Thank You very much. I always thought the "forced" 1st to 4th shift on my 2000 Corvette and 2006 GTO (that I disabled) was to meet the EPA MPG test. Both GM vehicles, but they improved it significantly by 2006. I don't know if Fords or Dodge/Chryslers ever used that "trick" in their manual transmissions on high performance cars. There's nothing worse than being in an uphill green light. Try to shift into 2nd gear. Then being forced to wait to slow down and eff around to get 2nd gear and accelerate out of the middle of the intersection. Rather than an 800 RPM, no torque/no HP 4th gear response. I can literally feel the engine's pain from the high cylinder pressure and pounding in every part of the whole engine with the 4th "forced" gear. I refuse to do it. All while traffic is backed up behind you in your "sports car" at 5:15 PM trying to get home in a hurry. Arghhh. Kill me now.
The loudness vs short gearing thing is why I'm ok with the new WRX (and BRZ/86) being fairly quiet. The gearing is so good I wouldn't want to sacrifice it for sound.
This is the point I’ve been making and part why I’ve gone PDK for my new car - 992GT3. Also the PDK offers greater excitement than manual, - in my opinion
I figured this out back when they released the Ferrari 458. You could shift it manually but it would automatically shift 1-2 for you because 1st was a really short gear. I think in normal traffic and throttle input it actually skips 1st gear.
My 700 hp Viper is hard to launch. Drove a dual-clutch, 8 speed Ferrari Roma. Man, what a difference! No slack between gears, active traction control manages slip without flatlining the power, like my Mustang used to do. Fantastic trans!
Even tho an automatic is more practical, the manual one is waaaay more fun so, in the end, it rly depends on what the buyer wants, to have fun or to be more practical
@@Valorius Honestly...Winning isn't really that fun....If you really want to "win" just trade it all away for an EV...To me, winning is nothing more than an ego contest. If you want to have fun...I don't know, theres a huge difference between nailing that rev match, and feeling the car respond directly to your hands and feet...compared to hitting a flappy paddle and letting the computers do the rest. In a proper dog-box sequential where the gears literally slam in, ok that's a different story...but paddle shifts in modern cars are nothing more than automatics with some extra buttons.
@@skifree0 slightly disagree tho because an ev only "wins" against a good manual half the time (i.e usually on the street, light to light, under 75mph ect). A good dct, which is an automatic, will outperform a manual both on the street and highway speeds AND on track every time, while also offering good fun in the twisty bits in its own way. So if you dont care about winning thats fine, but if someone is concerned with being competitive on track you would pretty much have to get a dct, rather than an ev or a manual.
Well, it would be interesting to actually look into it. He specifically chose the S model of the 911 because the ratios are different (more gears in the PDK allow this) but in the base 911 auto v manual the ratios are the same. He just chose a car that fit his narrative.
@@JacobMueller The 992 Carrera base may only come in PDK. At lease on the configurator there's no manual option. Only for the S version. You're right that they're the same ratios for the 991 carreras but no one really complained much about long gearing in those ones that I can remember. People do however constantly complain about the Cayman gearing which is longer ratios for manual on all caymans. What is the true reason? I don't know.
Tbh modern “sports cars” aren’t all that exciting enough to warrant a manual transmission, most have had the excitement engineered out to make them idiot proof, plus the manuals feel too clunky and sloppy because of the emissions designed throttles that it almost is reminiscent of an old automatic transmission. Instead of feeling one with the car you just feel like you’re having a shouting match with it. Modern manuals pale in comparison to an old school manual sports car from the 60s-90s, and really, the older the car the more raw it really is. I’d take a modern Porsche or similar car with a DCT any day of the week, at least then I can get the instant shifts and it still at least gives the experience of a sequential box like a race car. I have a Triumph spitfire, though it may be as slow as a dog, the handling and unmolested power train make the experience like a dance or as if the car is an extension of your self and make you feel like a race car driver from the 50s/60s. Modern cars may be fast, but they truly aren’t all that fun to drive.
@@BazzookieI love my s2000. New enough to be reliable and that I don't have to mess with carburettors and chokes, but it still has a mechanical throttle linkage, a low volume intake manifold, a super lightweight flywheel and a shifter that goes straight into the transmission. It's so much more responsive and communicative than the 2010s era manual econobox I had before it.
@@Biriadan the S2000 is a great car, falls before the cutoff on when cars started to become too modern. It’s honestly sad that manuals have been completely molested by emissions standards and there’s seemingly no real demand to actually develop improvements like how manufacturers figured out how to work around emissions standards for horsepower in the past.
Back in 1969, my friend Billy bought a Chevy Nova with a 350 cu in and three speed. He put a Hurst shifter on the floor, a 500 cfm Holly Carburetor with adapter on the engine, moved the battery to the right side of the trunk, and 15 inch wheels on the limited slip rear 3.9 gear axle. With this setup he would only shift once. Many times he beat larger engine cars head to head but with the smaller engine, the other car was kept back a short time, he beat them every time.
@@jamesborek8125 I like having more gears than 5 or 6 and it’s just not possible with manual. If I’m in the mood the paddle shifter is there so I don’t lose anything but the third pedal. As a driving instructor, I mainly work with manual but it’s really pain in the butt compared to automatic.
@@tamasvarga67 I’ve owned a manual brz, Mx-5, and used to ride naked bikes. Then I got a GTI with the DCT. Never going back to manual again. The performance is better, whenever I’m lazy/tired I can let it switch gears for me, and I don’t equate moving my left leg 100s of times every time I drive as something cool/more involving/more fun. The paddle shifters with a DCT is bliss.
People seem to forget that when it comes to "off the line" acceleration, drag racing cars take the win. And they mostly use torque converter automatic. Real enthusiasts will modify their cars instead of leaving them stock, so the stock ratios are irrelevant.
For me the fun of driving is the corners and trying to find the best line, not mucking about with pedals and levers. I prefer to focus on what makes me the happiest.
This reminds me of how Subaru execs were saying in order to get a faster 0-60 on the new BRZ you need the manual since its so much quicker than the awful automatic Take that numbers freaks
Curious how this stretches out internationally. Although "driving" in the UK routinely means "driving a manual", it's not like autos are unheard of; I wonder if the same gear-length disparity exists among UK versions of these cars.
Yes and no. If the longer first gear on the manual still has more torque on the wheels than the tires have grip, you basically dont lose anything, although it might be harder to get the launch right, with a launch control you can still get it decent. Meanwhile the automatic might have 40% more torque on the wheels in first gear, but that is unusable if the tires cannot drive that much torque into the ground. So it will reduce the power in the launch and shift to second, now youre in second gear while the manual car is still in its longer first gear, if you now compare the driving torque at that speed, it might actually be higher on the manual since its still in first. Playing with the ratios is a fun thing, but who cares about the 0-60 anyway. Porsche should probably keep the long 1st gear, but it would be great if the following gears were closer together. The really short 1st gear in the PDK and other DCTs is probably more to avoid slip in stop and go traffic.
That's the joys of fully customizable transmissions with changeable gear ratios. Gearing from 0-60 mph (or mpg) or gearing for 200+ mph, the choice is yours.
"Conventional" automatics that utilize a torque converter also multiply torque when they stall, known as flash, and if the valve body is calibrated correctly, with a high stall converter, will out-accellerate a manual transmission, however, this comes at the cost of reduced every day drivability.
ok so what? The automatic doesn't use even close to all the 10 gears to go 0-60. The 10 gears in the automatic are there just for the fuel economy and EPA crap. You can make all 5 gears in a manual short like the automatic and make the 6th gear very long for highway driving and good fuel economy
@@dieselgeezer18 but auto 8 speed can make 60mph at third gear, because shift time is so short and negligible. With same gearing.. But if you going to manually shift from 1st gear to 3rd gear to reach 60mph, it will still take equal or more time to do. Assuming you take 0.5s to shift one gear, now you took 1s to do shifting. I dk probably you can do it faster.. But still maybe 0.4s per shift?
I love this guy but I'm not so sure about this. The reality is that it's simply impractical to have 10 or 12 gears in a manual and you can have that on a DCT/auto no prob. If you can have more gears, you can optimize for shorter gear ratios for faster 0-60. It'd be super annoying to have a manual with such short gear ratios, you'd be shifting nonestop.
@G Only for torque converter automatics when they're not locked. A DCT engages the gears with a clutch just like a manual. It's just that it has two clutches so it can have the next gear lined up ready to go.
I own a Manual 981 Boxster GTS and I have owned a couple of sports bikes in the past and my current bike is a Ducati 899 Panigale. Coming from motorcycles I don't mind the long gearing, my 899 hits 90ish MPH in 2nd and Boxster 80ish MPH. I can use mostly the same shift points, and it also means I am very generous with revving the 3.4 liter boxer 6 engine like it was intended. Now, motorcycles with 150+ hp make the first couple of gears very tall because short gearing will give it too much torque and lead to unwanted wheelies. My 899 will still power wheelie when hitting the powerband in 3rd. The tall 1st gear on the Boxster actually makes it usable than just getting off the line. It stills gets off the line rather well, and I don't even have to worry about shifting out of first until I cross 40 MPH, and I don't have to worry much about wheelspin either. Optimizing for 0-60 is something I have no interest in. Give me maximum driver engagement any day.
I have owned an mx5 and love the engagement a manual gives you. But I now drive an automatic and don’t want to go back. It’s just so much easier and faster.
I found a way of having fun with an automatic: play with its numerous gears by accelerating and decelerating, upshifting and downshifting 3 or 4 gears at once! So an automatic for me! 😎
Only time I have fun with an auto is drive 50 mph then throw it in reverse, then manual swap the car. Did that with a shitbox 4 spd foxbody before it became my project car
The gear ratios are a big factor, but you left out two things: 1) More and more cars today are turbo. In a manual, not only did you not have constant throttle, but your turbo loses boost in between shifts, giving reduce the effect. In the 90s, turbo Volvos has 5 speed manuals with short gearing, and 4 speed autos with super long gearing. The autos were still quicker for the reason mentioned above. 2) Nowadays, many automatic cars have launch control. And if they're turbo automatic cars, then they actually boost under load before letting off to launch. So, I really think that the gear ratio explanation is valid, but doesn't account for these other 2 factors mentioned above.
I know the feel, I have a 2020 mustang gt pp1 6 speed and the gears are way too long! Such a shame that the 5.0 is paired with bad gearing like this. I'm considering to change the rear end gear to 4,09.
What ratio do you have to begin with? Speaking from my own experience, the 3.73 is great for NA applications. Anything higher and you are entering Vin Diesel shifting territory. Would not recommend. Since I run boost on my 2012 Mustang, I went down to 3.15. Too much torque.
It's got 5 gears and 1 overdrive. That's more than enough in a MT. Want more, buy an AT. Mustangs have used Tremecs for ages and these have ALWAYS had long gears.
@@nightdriver7216 The mt82-d4 is the transmission they use in the 2018+ manuals, d4 stands for direct 4, so 4th gear has the 1 to 1 ratio, therefore the mt82-d4 is a 4 speed with 2 overdrive. 5ht is 0.81 and 6th is 0.62
This is why I rebuild old T-56’s for lt1’s and ls1’s. They aren’t the most refined transmissions on earth but they’ve got good gearing and can take a Rocky Balboa level beating
When i bought my VW Golf I had the choice of driving an automatic off the dealer's lot or ordering a manual. The automatic is decent: smooth in normal mode, responsive in sport mode, shifts as requested in manual mode. Does this mean I'm getting old?
A manual allows you to actually "drive" the car. It feels more like a machine. I feel like I'm in an interactive game every time I drive my car. I absolutely love it.
You bring back happy memories. Picture a third, passing lane going up hills in a very hilly province. Picture my old 122S with a 4-speed. Picture me blowing by V8s in kick-down that would top out a 75 mph whilst the Volvo would pull 85 MPH in third. See you later big iron, except by the time they topped the hill I was long gone. Happy days with happy gearing.
Two words: dual clutch. Automatics nowadays have two clutches. When you want to shift, the other gear is already connected. But old automatics were slow af.
I'm gonna have to think on this to agree. It used to be that the reason certain cars, and trucks, only came with an automatic is because it kept a ton of drivelines that were barely good enough from being warrantied by dealers. The drivers were pushing the performance limits of the the driveline. I know this from automotive engineers I've worked with. A manufacturer could save tons of money selling a car with an automatic that wouldn't crater everything from the clutch to the rear axles from a driver with a drag race attitude, by dropping instant torque on the driveline. This new idea...I have to think on it.
"If you buy a sports car with an automatic, you deserve to suffer." I am of the opinion that if you bought a sports car with an automatic, then you didn't buy a sports car. A performance car, or faster car, sure okay. But not a sports car.
Yes, if you have 8 and 9 gears in some automatics, then the first gears are geared shorter and the top gears can be geared longer for fuel efficiency, and the jumps between gears can be small, that is what gives the most benefit
@@ralphsmallblock4367 Also the torque converter (on the ones that still use it) can be made less elastic cause first gear is shorter and cars more powerful. My bro got a BMW like 8 speed, torque converter, turbo 270 hp, works very well although I like a classic manual, heel and toe, etc :) but progress is progress
Real men drive with three pedals … it’s nostalgic and it is a matter of understanding your true vehicle potential , can’t clutch kick in automatic . To drive manual means to be one with your car , not too concerned with speed of shifts unless I am racing . Even in racing though you feel your car when you shift with three pedals …. It is a skill and I’m sad it is dying for car enthusiasts
I found your channel 2 days ago, this is my 37th video.... This is the best video Jesus Christ, I will remember your name and who you are and tell my grandkids about this specific video.
I don't have a PDK Porsche. I have a ZF8 Audi A6. The first and second gear are very short and aggressive to the point that I don't really floor it unless I am out of those gears. The car has 430ft lbs of torque. Because it isn't a dual clutch, off the line you have to brake torque it. It will strain so hard the front of the car will rise and the rear squats . Launch is absolutely glorious and the 1-2 and 2-3 happen pretty fast. It does have a trans tune. When I used to drive a manual, I'd just powershift the heck out of it. "Drive it like you stole it and never lift"
Well, there is also the fact that with manuals you are pretty much stuck to a 6 speed gate while automatics con go 7, 8, 9, 10 gears...that also contributes a lot not only to performance, but to mpg and noise levels aswell
Most important thing about the DCT in my BMW (apart from meaning I could afford to buy it in the first place) is that when I pull the gear lever at full tune it slams the next gear with a serious bang and that's very satisfying, although not quite as great as a good manual (which the manual version didn't have anyway)
You forgot one aspect: In manual cars you don't want to have more than 6 gears because the gearshifter would become confusing and it would be annoying to shift every two seconds in traffic. As an automatic doesn't have these limitations, you can have more gears (Ford: 10) and make the ratios closer between each gear. This way, the transmission can keep the engine longer in the most powerful rpm range and the car accelerates quicker.
The '80s Porsche Turbo 911 4-speeds had high gears. Some guys on the west coast put 5.13 diffs in them to wake it up. The gear shift does account for at least .5 seconds. And lower gear ratios in the trans have helped significantly because there are more gears between first and OD, they will be lower ...I still want to manual swap my 3-speed with converter lock-up, even in an SUV for off-roading, b/c the diff is a 5.13. And the T-56 magnum 6-speed gearing, competition clutch group and lighter flywheel can do wonders with a lightweight V-6 crank.
The choice between manual and automatic transmissions depends on what the driver wants from his/her driving experience. Not everyone wants to deal with the hassle of constantly pressing/depressing the clutch pedal, and working the shifter manually to upshift and downshift the transmission, especially during heavy traffic. There is also the added task of covering both the clutch and brake pedals while idling. Some people prefer the convenience of shifting into drive and letting the car deal with the transmission. If sports cars with automatic transmissions were sins against the road automakers would have stopped producing them a long time ago. However, some drivers prefer to be in complete control of the car. They enjoy task of providing the shift commands manually and being given the freedom to squeeze every ounce of power out of the engine without being limited by computer-controlled shift points. I've driven manual and automatic transmission sports cars and have enjoyed both. In my opinion, the most fun thing about driving a sports car is working the throttle with your foot and hearing the engine roar as it creates the raw power that becomes acceleration. It doesn't matter what transmission is married to the engine. The gas pedal works the same. The act of smashing it with your foot is what makes driving a fast car fun. It's pretty much where the term "lead foot" comes from. Being a few seconds quicker in a quarter-mile drag race or having the quickest 0-60 time only matters on a race track. Out on public roads, the only thing that matters is how fun the driving experience is. Some drivers will say its more fun to drive a manual. Others will say its more fun to drive an automatic. There is no right or wrong selection because one person's idea of fun driving can be different from someone else's.
I'll still buy manuals either way. They aren't just nerfing manuals on the final drive ratio though, they also slow down shift engagement for the manuals through both ecu tuning and hydraulic restriction on the clutch. The ECU tuned throttle hang is usually limited to sub 3k shifts, so not really a performance nerf even if it does ruin shift quality, but the increase in forced clutch slipping you see in modern transmissions really does slow things down and damage wear items. VW is hilarious with this. Check out the bleeder valve (next to the shift linkage under the air box). There's a little plastic donut in there that has a different diameter hole in the middle depending on if it's found in a golf, gti or R (in ascending hole size order). All of these cars are dramatically improved by entirely removing the restrictor, but if you were to swap the R unit into your alltrack, golf, etc.. you would nearly clone the driving experience of the R manual transmission. So they slightly ruin each transmission with this one little plastic piece in direct proportion to how little money you spent on the car it's attached to.
![The Porsche Carrera GT is fine. Until it’s not. - Spotlight feat. Jason Cammisa - Ep. 7 [UHD 4K]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/uf3SDCFRDe4/mqdefault.jpg)
I'm pretty sure another reason is because of the amount of gears you can have. A 9 speed manual is probably very difficult to use in a regular car, which is why the highest amount of gears we've seen is 7 in the Corvette C7. If we take the Mustang GT, the manual has 6 gears and the automatic has 10, so they can have shorter gears for acceleration and long gears for MPG.
Yeah, this seems like the more obvious answer. But I guess we have seen enough "cheating on tests with the computers" business to think the "cheating" scenario is also driving it.
Great answer!
Nah you could just put an 18 speed Eaton fuller in your Honda and all your fast and furious dreams will come true! 😅
I drove a Jag with an 8 speed
I'm also pretty sure that once those clutch fingers wear down on an automatic, you ain't moving anywhere near as quick, I know from experience with my jeep and Lumina, cuz my current car is a 6 speed Forte and this bih quick
This Adam Sandler/Ryan Reynolds guy knows so many things it’s amazing
Adam Sandlers facd with Ryan Reynolds' personality lol
Ummmm pretty sure this is Ben Affleck.... though clearly they all look the same 🤣
He does look like em or the child of the two. 😂
@@villewintermaul1907 ahaha yes Ben Affleck too
@@villewintermaul1907 Yeah thats where I was going too
Nothing beats the simplicity, efficiency and durability of a well engineered manual transmission!
I would beg to differ. I get far more pleasure from a DSG than a manual. It's epic having those gear changes happen in milliseconds at your command. Manuals are slow, clunky and just plain boring in comparison. Each to their own but I've never understood why manuals are so adored. They are a chore not a pleasure!
@@brodiejones2028 Manual is more of a joy to drive if you know how to use it, it becomes instinctive, much more fun driving a car than driving a go-cart.
@@chizorama I'm 63. Grew up with manuals. Raced rally cars with manual gear boxes. I endured them, never enjoyed them. Till I got a DSG. Then the fun started! I rode and raced motorcycles. Love changing gears on a motorcycle probably because it is much more like a DSG. Safe to say I'm not going to start enjoying manuals now!
Well, apparently a double clutch automatic does.
@@brodiejones2028 Reckon not, but automatics are boring to me, plus I save on brake pads driving stick.
"If you buy a sports car with an automatic you deserve to suffer." We love you Jason! I turned on the captions and had to screenshot you with that line!
Buy*
@@shrek_2_on_dvd699 Thanks! I fixed it. A typo, not ignorance! BYE now. :)
L
Something like a DCT is acceptable to me, as long as you use the dct as a sequential and not as a full fledged auto ;)
@@kuiper921 To each their own. As long as you are having fun! :)
I love that Mazda punishes you for buying the automatic. Oh, they'll still sell you one, but you don't get the good suspension, brakes, differential and chassis bracing.
Alot of companies do that lol
@Yippee Skippy meh, couldn't care less 👍
@Yippee Skippy alot
i decided you gotta suffer reading a misspelled word
alot alot alot alot
I have a Sentra SE-R Spec V. It's the only way to get all that stuff in a Sentra, and it only comes with a 6-speed manual.
The gearing is pretty short, too. 35mph in 3rd gear is about 3000rpm. 1st-5th are similar to my 1987 CRX with 1st gen integra engine, but the Sentra has a lot more torque (and a lot more weight).
@@insomniacbritgaming1632 which companies tho? Other than the Miata and the GT86, I couldn’t think of any car that’s faster in manual than they are in Auto.
In forza I would often make overpowered cars by adding the 6 speed transmission mod and adjusting the gear ratios so that each shift is passed peak torque and approaching peak power. The one car this didn’t really work for was the integra type r. It came from the factory at optimal ratios.
Only works on turbo cars
@@CAL1MBO only works on cars with high rpm. it worked amazingly well on any honda.
Pretty sure Forza doesn't simulate turbo spooling. It just adds power at high rpm.
@@Mernom it actually does, you can change the HUD to show speed, RPM, tire wear, torque and hp. you can watch the torque spike and then fall off as you stay in the gear.
Not like this is going to matter much in a game where a hot rod blasts hypercars
Im a die hard petrolhead and still manage to learn new stuff about cars with this videos.
same here
This is fairly beginner stuff honestly. So What does die hard petrol head mean?
@@akassasin5768 he din't say ''dye'' you petrol head
@@RotaryPoweredRX wtf are you talking about?? Are you ok?
@@akassasin5768 your lack of knowing the difference of "dye" and "die"
Engineering Explained did an episode recently on this as well.
I agree that they are stacking the deck against the manual transmission, but a note to keep in mind is that the automatics in most cases are 8-10 speeds (edit: at the time of this post) as opposed to most manuals having 6 or 7. This means that they can use more lower gears to accelerate while still having a high top speed.
Just another note for the conversation.
I hope they stop "trying" to kill the manual transmission because I hope to own more in my future. Right now I've got an automatic that just doesn't do it for me.
After 40 years of manual only in my household I was forced to move to an automatic 4 years ago (replacing the last 4-door manual sedan made by Ford) with an automatic 4-door sedan. Thought about getting the Chevy SS but didn't (my loss).
Yep. Even if you ignore the consistency at launch and ease of launch of an automatic, the manual is still giving up anywhere from 1-4 gears vs a modern automatic. And ive never seen anyone that can shift a manual as fast as a well set up auto. Period.
Afaik DCT's are still heavier. More importantly manuals have fewer moving parts and all else being equal can be much more reliable (assuming a reasonably competent driver). I doubt EV's will have the same problem, but I much prefer how predictable the throttle response (consistent power for the same speed/rpm/throttle) is with a manual.
The issue is. EE sucks. Discount Sandler is far more entertaining.
@@tailsneon556 Maybe you are too dumb to understand EE, as it involves physics and math 🙄
With a manual, it's not just about speed; it's about control - the clutch is a tool to that end. To drive a car with a manual transmission gracefully over a twisting and hilly road is pure pleasure.
there auto with clutch too but not cheap
True, but a throttle-laggy and rev-hanging engine is pure Purgatory to drive with a stick.
I drive stick because I enjoy the art of driving with precision. Double-clutching/rev matching my downshifts , even though I don't need to, because I can (and it's smoother). And I at least rev-match my upshifts, so zero drivetrain lash. (And, of course, speed-shifting it once a month, just in case the hydraulics take a dump again, so I'm in practice.)
Is it necessary? Heck no! Is it satisfying? Oh hell yea!
Now, I briefly owned an F250 with the plug-eating 5.4, and throttle-by wire. And it took AGES to do a decent upshift with all the rev hang! (The truck would slow down almost as fast as the revs dropped.) To the point that I gave up. And every sloppy upshift, with noticeable drivetrain lash, and engine slowdown, just... *ate at my soul.* In a piddling, miniscule way. (Oh, and forget blipping the throttle for upshifts!)
Everyone bitches about stop-and-go. Not me! But electronic throttles were invented by someone who HATES the act of driving.
It's euphoric isn't it
Sounds like a nightmare. Then again, while I like cars, I don't care for this sort of stuff. I like performance, and if that comes in the form of an auto, I'll prefer that. I can drive manual, I just don't care to.
@@Xyler94 I agree, unless you're trying to skid the clutch gets in the way and left foot braking your way through corners is more stable and fun.
There’s another reason for this which Jason left out. Of course Ford can have shorter ratios when they have 10 gears in the Auto vs 6 in the manual and 8 in the Porsche vs 7 or 6 in the Manual. Thereby using the same final drive you can have shorter ratios between gears. The Mazda is a 6 speed whether you get an Auto or a Manual, and the manual is also lighter compared to the Auto so it should be faster
He left out a ton of factors, but yes, the final drive is a HUGE factor and makes up for the lower gearing on MTs. That and ATs now have 7-10 gears, so they have to spread the gearing out a lot more, which forces them to have higher geared 1-3 or 1-4. Also, launching an MT adds a ton of time to a 0-60 or even 1/4. The time to shift + launch is the BIGGEST reason why MTs are behind in 0-60. Transmission gearing deficit is offset by better FD ratios. Furthermore, if MTs have aggressive 1-2 or 1-3 ratios, they'd be worse to 60, since they'd struggle to put power down when launching. This whole argument by Jason is nonsense.
Exactly, kind of dumbfounded he didn't mention that little tid bit. Since these 8,9,10 autos are newly developed, there could have just as easily been 8,9,10 manuals developed. Problem is, they don't sell to justify the R&D.
@@nathanaelcole8466 😂😂 10 speed manual, finally fast and furious gearbox for the masses.
@@nathanaelcole8466 10, 12 speed manuals are only available in commercial/Freight vehicles, most you’ll see in a car is a 7 speed manual. Keep in mind rowing through that many gears in manual car is usually counter productive as you’d have even more “shift time loss” under hard acceleration and would be pain in daily driving and you’d have even more clutch wear.
@@jonathanhidalgo4591 but most of the extra gears are OD gears. What you do is you buy a lower engine speed cruising with 10 gears but allow yourself the aggressive gearing down low. For a 1/4 mile run, it chould mean one more gear change not three or four.
Business opportunity: Re-gear manual transmissions for optimal acceleration….
it already exist for some prosche trans
Final drive gear swap would do the trick like is commonly done on Mustangs and Chevys
There is already a video about doing that to gt4 on this channel.
DeMan and Sharkwerks would like a word
@@IT_Farhan Both even offer different ratios from the factory. My 2015 GT with 3.73s gets moving pretty well, but the new 10 speed cars will still destroy it. Over on engineering explained channel he actually made a video on why the 2018+ manual mustangs are slower than the old ones (hint: gearing).
The other thing is that initially the PDK had 1 more gear than the manuals. The 997 and early 991s had 6-speed manuals and 7-speed PDKs. The PDK could afford to make the gears significantly shorter without losing out on speed.
Half a second to 60 mph is a fair price to pay to have a clutch and H shifter.
Agreed!
hold up I don't you want that exhaust pop with a up shift? some cars with the dual clutch transmission when in sport mode will pop on upshifts.
@@crazeguy26 True, but nothing is better than nailing a perfect heel toe downshift with a stick.
@@Sephiroth5200 very good point is pure bliss.
@@crazeguy26 No i dont also you can get mild backfire on almost any petrol cari n certain rpm range, it will cackle and pop too and sound of engine moaning during clutching especially more slippy and slower one....you just make music with a manual automatics ruin it by default.
I will always take that over car akwardly farting and having nonexistant clutchingintervals that sound really unnatural
Gearing, and not just feel, is another reason Honda manual gearboxes are awesome. Short closely-spaced gearing.
*Laughs in NA1 NSX*.... 😆😅😢
Ya, my 2000 S2000 manual box is awesome. Haven’t driven a manual yet that even comes close.
I agree. Best gearbox I ever manhandled was a Honda. The one in my base Golf is clunky at best.
Yeah, the TSX gearbox in my car has a 4.76 final drive and a close ratio gearbox. At 5th gear at 40mph, I'm at about 2100 to 2200 rpm.
The MX-5’s six-speed manual has no overdrive gear. It is a true close-ratio stick shift. Result? In the twisties you'll always be able to find the right gear. The Civic Type R, on the other hand, devotes its two top gears to overdrive droning. Better for the MPG rating, Don’ cha know?
Meanwhile, my Honda fit is about a second faster to 60 with the manual vs CVT.
Doesn't change the fact that they are both slow.
I wasn't going to bother making a comment about my Fit with all the fancy sports car talk, but having had an '07 AT Fit and then an '08 MT Fit the Auto was geared far, far taller and is an absolute dog in acceleration in every gear. But the AT's 5th gear was a monster making freeway speeds far lower in the RPM. The '08 MT was spritely (I'd never use the word "fast" around it) especially in 2nd and 3rd as well as 4th a bit before it ran out of breath above 5k. I'm sure the later generation CVTs were even more impacted.
Omg I don't like cvt
😂 your funny man I liked this comment
Seriously, this is the kind of car content I love. I would love to see a video about “the agreement” about the speed wars in Japan.
There is no "agreement" in Japan. Just look at the CBR-1000RR-R.
@@devonking5710 he's talking about the gentlemen's agreement, which there absolutely WAS, in the 80s/90s regarding limiting engine output to 280PS (276 SAE HP).
@@jsquared1013 and thus we got engine blocks like 2jz which came at 270hp iut the factory but could handle a 1000 ❤️
@@devonking5710 The agreement was with cars, not bikes. The idea was to make sure car sales were more on the merit of the car, so they all got a chance to sell, versus consumers just going with the fastest car- something I wish these super and hypercar people would do.
Of course they didn't strictly hold themselves to the agreement.
@TrueKen is it a new non-oem or a used oem one's price?
The mustang gt 5.0 auto is a 10 speed...of course the gears are going to be shorter than a 6 speed manual...
Yes, but the gears are not there for 0-60, they are there for EPA noise and MPG regs, the 0-60 is a side effect, and the same EPA regs force manuals to have longer gearing ruining the 0-60
@@cirian75 With 10 gears however, you can have a big overall spread with reasonable steps between each gear. So yes they were developed mainly for economy but they serve well as a performance too. The transmission is the same between trucks and cars. So what helps a Mustang off the line also helps an F150 get a trailer moving from a stop.
@@cirian75 Hey Cirian75, why does the EPA force manuals to have higher gearing? Because of the sound regulations?
@@ananthprem8804 EPA doesn't force anyone to use tall gearing, it's a tactic found by automakers. EPA is the wet blanket, who doesn't like anyone having fun. They have different methods to test noise and emission stuff for manual and automatic. It's something like, manuals have to floor the accelerator in 3rd gear and automatics only have to apply some amount of throttle without the transmission kicking down the gears. Pretty discriminatory if you ask me.
I remember my first 10-speed. It was a Schwinn.
Flawless explanation of the currently depressing situation of the near extinction of manuals. The Miata being one of the few going against the flow puts a smile on my face 🏁
Civic SI and Type R are manual only.
WRX is still faster in manual than in CVT 💪💪💪
Nissan Z
It's a lot to do with all of the safety systems that they are putting on cars these days. Most of them, like adaptive cruise control, don't work well on manuals.
The extinction is only in USA.
I suspected the auto's having shorter gears helped. But, what I thought was working well for the recent auto's is that whole 8/9/10 gears thing. I figured they are so quick because the shifts are so fast / with continuous power so you can have 2-3 shifts to 60 / max that wheel torque without much cost in shifting time. I had no idea that the strategy initially was related to fuel economy with the opposite of that equation working against the sticks.. . I don't care. I'm not a drag racer, both my cars are sticks, my wife drives the slushbox.
Yeah I was somewhat leaning towards the higher amount of gears, but cheating the EPA and sound levels makes sense as well. I think a lot of people that like manuals stateside generally have manual cars with crazy long gears. Then we also had manufacturers that know magazines like 0-60. I think it was only Subaru at one point that needed a third shift before 60 and everyone else geared around it and the Subaru looked much slower by that metric. It's funny the strange superficial forces that can push product developers in weird ways.
@@jinxtacy the GD chassis Subaru STI was geared short enough that it needed a 2-3 shift right before hitting 60 mph (2004-2006 at least... I think 2007 was when they lengthened some gears, but I want to say it was only 4th-6th, can't remember exactly). But that was also influenced by the gears being spec'ed according to the original 2.0-liter engine, which outside of North American redlined at 8,000 rpm rather than the 7,000 of the 2.5-liter (which was also a product of emissions regs, in this case cold-start emissions regs, since the cast pistons of the existing 2.5-liter bottom end could run tighter piston-to-wall clearances which reduced cold-start emissions compared to the wider clearances needed for the forged pistons in the JDM 2.0-liter STI). With the higher, original redline, the 2-3 shift would have been after 60 instead of before.
Some don't even go through every gear. 2016 Navigator and Expy under moderate load would just go 1-2-7.
@@jsquared1013 Thank you for sharing your knowledge. That makes a lot of sense. I never really thought about the 2.0 potentially having a higher redline. It makes sense though.
@@jsquared1013 hey I have a 07 sti. The only difference is 3rd and 4th. All other gears are the same as previous year.
this would be great knowledge if I was in a position to buy a new car, but since I buy my cars 20 years old and with 99 problems I pick manual every time so at least that doesn't give me problems
Agreed! Sticking to vehicles year 2000 and older. Cheaper fixes and less computer headaches.
20 year old automatic transmissions are often bulletproof, especially in the US where the manufacturers did not have to cheat the customers that the oil in their transmission is made of some magical compound that does not deteriorate EVER and there's a better chance of buying one that was properly maintained.
@@pdcichosz man I hate everytime they say that: _lifetime transmission fluid_ 🤦♂️🤣
@@aaryeshg.6526 I mean every fluid is lifetime fluids, they just reduce the lifetime if not changed on regular intervals.
This guy knows the wae (way).
As a motorcycle guy I’m completely mystified as to why people would buy sports cars without manual transmissions. Getting the revmatch right on the downshift or selecting the right gear for corner exit is insanely enjoyable and satisfying especially after you’ve messed a few up. Makes you feel like you’ve earned it.
@Lurch congratulations almost nothing you’ve said here is accurate.
Many people today prefer to buy prestige over earn it. Values have changed. And after learning what i have today I have one more reason to build my own car. Nothing beats manual control by a skilled amd knowledgeable individual
@@David.. What really kills me about my Nissan Maxima (300hp) isn't so much the goddamned fake shifts, but the fact that they didn't bother to simply have an off switch for the God damned fake shifts. I hate those fake shifts so so much. Thankfully, it's just my comfortable cruising vehicle. For fun I like my gen 3 Hayabusa...
Im faster in a automatic going around corners than a manual. I can also brake later into a corner without thinking about using a clutch i can focus more on driving and cornering.
People nowadays prefer the easier option . I’d rather be slower In a manual than faster In an automatic.
Nice video, had no idea about this, but it comes to my mind that manuals are usually 6 gears plus reverse, most automatics now at days come with 7 to 10 gears which may help explain why they use shorter gearing
C7 Corvettes offer a 7 speed manual.
Now I really appreciate car companies that only make a manual of certain car model… the Dodge Viper as an example ❤️ no EPA crap.
EPA pressures prolly killed the Viper
@@tuscanoasis That and mandatory nanny aids is what killed it.
And now it’s dead.
@@ItsDaJax and that they struggled to sell them. The money just wasn't there to justify keeping it.
@@ItsDaJax EPA has nothing to do with cars minus smog. Viper passed that, so your point bout EPA is dumb. You could turn off TCS and I was not aware of SCS in a Viper. So another ignorant remark. They are not great cars to live with, probably why they didn't sell all that well. They are however a good second weekend/track car. Big government didn't kill the viper, Dodge did.
It helps that autos are also 8 , 9 ,10 gears now , they can be geared insanely short and still idle on the freeway
Not to mention CVTs, although I don't like them.
And eventually you site with a repair bill equal to the value of your ten speed car?
@@surena9451 cvt is a great idea but definitely needs more research
@@Deontjie 10 gear automatics aren't anything special, and would not have more expensive repairs (unproportionally) compared to any other automatic. Planetary gears are just nicely scalable.
@@Adlore Planet gears needs a belt which is not reliable yet. Maybe next year. Each gear in an auto-box needs an expensive solenoid. Not costly to manufacture, just expensive to buy.
I've owned an Alfa Romeo Giulia for 8 months and already miss the stick. Looking very seriously at the GR86 as our 2nd car, the wife can keep the automatic.
135i and the M3 E46 are some choices available in manual. The Hyundai Genesis Coupe also comes in manual.
@@normandy1140 I want a lighter car, so it's down to the ND2 or GR86, maybe a used BRZ if the new one isn't to my liking. I just got a dog, so the Miata might not work.
I drive an automatic truck for 10 hours a day about 2 years now,but i would rather prefer changing 16 gears and splits all day long.totally stupid working especially in uphills or corners.
@@normandy1140 genesis eww.
@@moldyburgers8742 HAHA
This reminds me of a situation many years ago that was sort of the opposite regarding emission standards. I had two nearly identical cars, but one was a manual and one was an automatic. They both offered 29mpg on the window sticker. The automatic had an EGR valve, but the manual didn't. Apparently the manual transmission was a slightly more efficient powertrain than the automatic, so they had to slap a bandaid on the slushbox to get it to match.
Yep, old VW 1.9 TDIs often had EGR coolers (allowing more egr) for the automatic cars but the manuals just had a standard EGR.. common mod was to remove the EGR cooler which could fail and leak, or remove the egr entirely.
VW Group change a fair bit when going for an auto, they used to give rear disk brakes, hill hold and ESP for free on some of their smaller models with an auto. Some makers do very little but some use different ECU tunes or just decide to use a certain engine with the auto. Front suspension is one thing often changed, diesel model springs are sometimes used. Slushboxes need larger and better vented brakes but some manufacturers didn't bother. Some need better alternator or better cooling too
As always, it's the regulation's fault.
Or is it because capitalism?
@@vukashin88 Capitalism is to blame for the SUV/crossover epidemic but I don't think it's responsible for the 911 not passing noise regulations or companies designing vehicles to be best on the test cycle, not in the real world or according to consumer demand. In that case it's these specific regulations by government.
@@vukashin88 How is it capitalisms fault? What are you talking about?
@@vukashin88 You realize without capitalism there wouldn’t be millionaires of different races right? In this industry it’s regulations.
@@imnotusingmyrealname4566 Its lazy engineering. Porsche has decided the easiest way to pass the drive by test is to flub the transmission. Mazda decided the best way to pass the test was make the car quiet. Porsche should have spent more time researching better (active and passive) noise reduction technologies rather than go for the quick fix. Engineers are paid to solve problems. There are many ways to solve this problem, they are using the wrong solution.
I’ll take a manual over a low geared auto 9/10 times.
And if you are drag racing a Porche from a dead stop your not using the car for what it was designed for. Instead of 0-60 non sense i'd like to see how they compare at track speeds, which is rarely a drag race from a dead stop.
@@mele2904 very true. I don’t hate the new autos I just wonder why they couldn’t but some R&D money into a manual gearbox.
@@JohnnyAFG81 Because, they aren't going to sink a dime into R&D on products that less than 10% of the driving populous will even be able to drive. Might be even less at 5% of drivers that can drive manuals. You're gonna have to accept that we are a dying breed.
@@shane8915 What is sad is your 100% right. Everyone is so concerned with lap times and millisecond shifts with PDK’s and DCT that they have forgotten the mechanical attachment rowing gears has. With an automatic your being driven, with a manual you are the drive.
Porsche’s current manuals are really long geared. In Australia, with 110kph speed limits, you can only legally redline a manual Porsche (any model) in first gear. A Boxster is going 18kph over the country’s maximum speed limit at redline in second gear. They are too tall to be fun anymore.
Absolutely loved this video! Now we need to know how and where we can change our Porsche gears to fix the lousy ratios. Additionally, Mazda has once again proved why they deserve much better status in the car world than they do.
The 911 S PDK has an extra gear, that's why it's shorter, and faster. Mazda just doesn't have the money to build a fancy PDK for their lowest selling vehicle or the incentive. Porsche races their 911s in so many GT series around the world and need to have a gearbox that competes with Ferrari, Merc, etc. Mazda just races against other Mazdas generally so they don't have the incentive. The PDK is just an amazing gearbox.
"Additionally, Mazda has once again proved why they deserve much better status in the car world than they do."
Ish. They did pigheadedly refuse to make a hot hatch Mazda 3, even though it's likely it would've blown its competition out of the water with that interior. Still salty about that.
You can pay a third party shop to replace the hearing, but it’ll cost you serious money. Thousands upon thousands of dollars. Worth it, I’d say, but quite a lot to drop into a car
This is absolutely ridiculous. This needs to be known worldwide because people just think that dual clutch is our faster because of the shifting but it’s about the gearing too! How is this not talked about already?
One thing to note: if the manual ratios matched the auto/DCT, there'd be significantly more (manual) shifting involved in getting to a given speed. In that, the auto/DCT still has an advantage due to the faster shifting. Imagine a performance car with short, tight gearing in a manual transmission... it would be almost like a dump truck, with 2-3 (manual) shifts occurring before you cleared an intersection while on the street.
But the differences become much more negligible.
Maybe if you are comparing seriously under powered cars. Anything with enough power to be reasonably fun to drive would be traction limited with gearing that low. In most cases unless you are gearing for well over 150mph then a 5 or 6 speed is more than enough. the 6-10sp autos are not helping performance by having more gears, it is all done for economy, keeping the out of throttle cruising rpm at whatever their target is for that. If best economy is at 2200rpm you might be able to get within 100rpm of that with a 8sp where you might only be able to get within 300rpm of it with the 5sp. Or at 75mph that might put a 5sp at like 3200rpm and way off that economy target where an 8sp has effectively 3 over drive gears to bring the rpm down. When it comes to performance its better to look at them as having multiple over drive gears or as having enough gearing for 170mph+. 0-60 either transmission would likely only use 1st and 2nd, or 0-100 3rd additionally. Ideal gearing will always be decided by matching torque at the wheels to available traction for first gear, after that its on what is the peek power rpm of the engine and how wide is the power band. if you have a very high revving engine or one with a very narrow power band you will need closer ratios to keep the engine in that power band, for most cars with a redline around 7000rpm and ideal power band from about 5000-6200rpm either a 5 or 6 speed is ideal and weather one vs other comes down to how much power do you have both in what the 1st gear ratio would be and also to where top speed would end up. That however does not consider mpg or what rpm you end up with in high gear cruising down the highway, this is the only reason new autos are now 6-10speeds, that or in the case of luxury cars they drive smoother short shifting.
At least someone gets it. Gj dude. So many ignorant comments around.
Bro... you can skip gears in an h pattern.
I think it's worth adding that most DCT's are 7 or 8 speed these days, which allows shorter gears. It'd be too much to ask a regular driver change so many gears so often manually, but obviously this isn't an issue with an automatic. For instance, the 1st gear in our VW DSG 7 speed gearbox is so short, the car uses it just momentarily on flat roads, unless you floor it from standstill. You could literally drive without 1st gear most of the time if it was a manual.
I got the same gearbox in my Transporter. I lie awake at night worrying what the cost will be when it eventually breaks.
Having a manual is more about control. Yes the new automatics are superior but you just don’t get the same driving experience with one. I collect Corvette’s, and I’ve owned every generation except a C1. I’ve always bought manuals. I recently bought a 2021 C8 8speed auto. Wow!!! This transmission rocks. It’s much superior to the 7speed manual in the C7 which I also own. But I won’t get rid of my manual Vetts.
Did you end up getting a C1?
@@Jakeman302 I own a C2 currently and I’ve owned a C3 and 2 C4’s plus a C5 Z06 and a C7 Z06 but no C1 unfortunately. I like to get a C6 Z06 then I’ve owned every generation except a C1.
Helps that the C8 Vette only comes in automatic.
I have owned 4 manual cars and two automatics
Once automatics got paddle shifters that forced a hard shift, control as a reason for manual disappeared. Even non-pdk slushboxes could outperform manuals, shift speeds were faster and lockup torque converters tightened up the drivetrain.
Automatics with aftermarket high stall converters were beating manuals of the line long before dual clutch autos were a thing
Yup people forget about the high stall converters. But I prefer turns in a course over drag racing.
👌🏿 hell fucking yes.
Exactly.
But a manual is just way more fun.
That's irrelevant to the EPA.
@@SHOdown13 Not if my car is old enough. No emissions requirements for classic cars. 6 speed manual=max fun!!
An there it is. Only toke almost 20 years until I see/heard someone say it.
Real drivers use 3 pedals
@@RafitoOoO Yeah, that's why we see automatics in almost every race we can think of!
I love the short gears in my 2010 RX-8. Also, they shortened 1st gear for the Series II versus the Series I.
Great job on this video. Still love manuals over anything else even these days. With all the crap that’s been added onto cars these days it’s any wonder we’ve become lazy with a prime example being turn signals which people driving are using less and less when turning.
Incredibly great information. Thank You very much. I always thought the "forced" 1st to 4th shift on my 2000 Corvette and 2006 GTO (that I disabled) was to meet the EPA MPG test. Both GM vehicles, but they improved it significantly by 2006. I don't know if Fords or Dodge/Chryslers ever used that "trick" in their manual transmissions on high performance cars. There's nothing worse than being in an uphill green light. Try to shift into 2nd gear. Then being forced to wait to slow down and eff around to get 2nd gear and accelerate out of the middle of the intersection. Rather than an 800 RPM, no torque/no HP 4th gear response. I can literally feel the engine's pain from the high cylinder pressure and pounding in every part of the whole engine with the 4th "forced" gear. I refuse to do it. All while traffic is backed up behind you in your "sports car" at 5:15 PM trying to get home in a hurry. Arghhh. Kill me now.
Yes challengers have that skip shift function at low throttle and speeds. Its easy to bypass though.
All they need to do is make this epa silliness easily disable-able so those who want to kill it can do so. Thus minimising the damage
The loudness vs short gearing thing is why I'm ok with the new WRX (and BRZ/86) being fairly quiet. The gearing is so good I wouldn't want to sacrifice it for sound.
Yes, my new VB WRX has amazing gearing! They definitely didn't let some silly tests dictate gearing choice.
Love that you found a way to include the Miata in the same dialog with Mustang 5.0 and Porsche GT3! One more reason why Miata is always the answer :)
This is the point I’ve been making and part why I’ve gone PDK for my new car - 992GT3. Also the PDK offers greater excitement than manual, - in my opinion
Why does a pdk offer more excitement?
@@RealOrbit-Australia good question, I will try & explain my point of view in a video posting on Friday UK time 6.00pm hope you can watch 👍🏼
@@RogerBaileyOnCars will do
@@RogerBaileyOnCars Just watched your video on buying the car, great quality and content. Looking forward to more!
This guy is clearly among the very best in the car media !
"If you bought a sports car with an automatic, you deserve to suffer"
Liked and subbed
Same with Jeep Wranglers. Y’all look so cool and carefree driving with your left leg hanging out the door but we know you have the wimpy automatic.
I figured this out back when they released the Ferrari 458. You could shift it manually but it would automatically shift 1-2 for you because 1st was a really short gear. I think in normal traffic and throttle input it actually skips 1st gear.
My 700 hp Viper is hard to launch.
Drove a dual-clutch, 8 speed Ferrari Roma. Man, what a difference! No slack between gears, active traction control manages slip without flatlining the power, like my Mustang used to do.
Fantastic trans!
Even tho an automatic is more practical, the manual one is waaaay more fun so, in the end, it rly depends on what the buyer wants, to have fun or to be more practical
A good paddle shift car is just as fun, and winning is much more fun than losing.
@@Valorius Honestly...Winning isn't really that fun....If you really want to "win" just trade it all away for an EV...To me, winning is nothing more than an ego contest.
If you want to have fun...I don't know, theres a huge difference between nailing that rev match, and feeling the car respond directly to your hands and feet...compared to hitting a flappy paddle and letting the computers do the rest.
In a proper dog-box sequential where the gears literally slam in, ok that's a different story...but paddle shifts in modern cars are nothing more than automatics with some extra buttons.
@@skifree0 slightly disagree tho because an ev only "wins" against a good manual half the time (i.e usually on the street, light to light, under 75mph ect). A good dct, which is an automatic, will outperform a manual both on the street and highway speeds AND on track every time, while also offering good fun in the twisty bits in its own way. So if you dont care about winning thats fine, but if someone is concerned with being competitive on track you would pretty much have to get a dct, rather than an ev or a manual.
@@Valorius "winning is much more fun" -- Winning what? It's only faster in a drag race. Get on a twisty road, and the automatic becomes a liability.
@@mountainhobo
A good automatic with paddles can be very fun in the Twisties. The ZF-8HP in my car is fantastic.
I've always thought my manual Cayman had non optimal gearing... Now I know.
Well, it would be interesting to actually look into it. He specifically chose the S model of the 911 because the ratios are different (more gears in the PDK allow this) but in the base 911 auto v manual the ratios are the same. He just chose a car that fit his narrative.
@@JacobMueller The 992 Carrera base may only come in PDK. At lease on the configurator there's no manual option. Only for the S version. You're right that they're the same ratios for the 991 carreras but no one really complained much about long gearing in those ones that I can remember. People do however constantly complain about the Cayman gearing which is longer ratios for manual on all caymans. What is the true reason? I don't know.
Give Jason more work! He's awesome. Delivery is technical and understanding and he doesn't speak 2mph like your other hosts!
Buy a dct to race, and a manual to be one with the car...
Why not get a manual transmission to be one with the car and win a race ( if possible)? That would be the ultimate joy in car culture (in my opinion).
Tbh modern “sports cars” aren’t all that exciting enough to warrant a manual transmission, most have had the excitement engineered out to make them idiot proof, plus the manuals feel too clunky and sloppy because of the emissions designed throttles that it almost is reminiscent of an old automatic transmission. Instead of feeling one with the car you just feel like you’re having a shouting match with it. Modern manuals pale in comparison to an old school manual sports car from the 60s-90s, and really, the older the car the more raw it really is. I’d take a modern Porsche or similar car with a DCT any day of the week, at least then I can get the instant shifts and it still at least gives the experience of a sequential box like a race car. I have a Triumph spitfire, though it may be as slow as a dog, the handling and unmolested power train make the experience like a dance or as if the car is an extension of your self and make you feel like a race car driver from the 50s/60s. Modern cars may be fast, but they truly aren’t all that fun to drive.
@@BazzookieI love my s2000. New enough to be reliable and that I don't have to mess with carburettors and chokes, but it still has a mechanical throttle linkage, a low volume intake manifold, a super lightweight flywheel and a shifter that goes straight into the transmission. It's so much more responsive and communicative than the 2010s era manual econobox I had before it.
@@Biriadan the S2000 is a great car, falls before the cutoff on when cars started to become too modern. It’s honestly sad that manuals have been completely molested by emissions standards and there’s seemingly no real demand to actually develop improvements like how manufacturers figured out how to work around emissions standards for horsepower in the past.
Or get the manual to win races and have fun
Back in 1969, my friend Billy bought a Chevy Nova with a 350 cu in and three speed. He put a Hurst shifter on the floor, a 500 cfm Holly Carburetor with adapter on the engine, moved the battery to the right side of the trunk, and 15 inch wheels on the limited slip rear 3.9 gear axle. With this setup he would only shift once. Many times he beat larger engine cars head to head but with the smaller engine, the other car was kept back a short time, he beat them every time.
Who cares Manuals are so much more satisfying!
Totally agreed, save the manuals
It depends on the individual... I had manual cars for 30 years and I also have a DCT for 4 years and I just prefer DCT it’s lots of fun.
@@tamasvarga67 as an individual, I disagree with you 🙃 but as long you're still out and enjoying the drive I'll let it slide 🙂
@@jamesborek8125 I like having more gears than 5 or 6 and it’s just not possible with manual. If I’m in the mood the paddle shifter is there so I don’t lose anything but the third pedal.
As a driving instructor, I mainly work with manual but it’s really pain in the butt compared to automatic.
@@tamasvarga67 I’ve owned a manual brz, Mx-5, and used to ride naked bikes. Then I got a GTI with the DCT. Never going back to manual again. The performance is better, whenever I’m lazy/tired I can let it switch gears for me, and I don’t equate moving my left leg 100s of times every time I drive as something cool/more involving/more fun. The paddle shifters with a DCT is bliss.
People seem to forget that when it comes to "off the line" acceleration, drag racing cars take the win. And they mostly use torque converter automatic.
Real enthusiasts will modify their cars instead of leaving them stock, so the stock ratios are irrelevant.
For me the fun of driving is the corners and trying to find the best line, not mucking about with pedals and levers. I prefer to focus on what makes me the happiest.
This reminds me of how Subaru execs were saying in order to get a faster 0-60 on the new BRZ you need the manual since its so much quicker than the awful automatic
Take that numbers freaks
Facts. My regeared 5.0 Mustang end up destroying the 10 spd 5.0 0-60 time
We need you daily, Jason! You can read the phone book for all I care! I know you'd make it interesting! Just DO IT!
MORE JASON CAMMISA!!! ✌🏾everyday I love your energy bro and the way you talk about cars it’s a amazing and I love being part of this community 🫡
Curious how this stretches out internationally. Although "driving" in the UK routinely means "driving a manual", it's not like autos are unheard of; I wonder if the same gear-length disparity exists among UK versions of these cars.
I don’t know about this Jason guy. He seems pretty Shifty. 🥸
Woah, i thought this was adam sandler.
He's gonna get shifty in here!
@@hojnikb He's more like discounted Adam Sandler.
go to bed
Clutch manipulations are priceless in winter in comparison to AT
These videos are awesome, keep it up! It’s really interesting to find out this kind of technical insider knowledge. Save the manuals!
Yup. This is about the best explanation Ive heard so far.
love this channel
They can lose but they are 107% more fun
Engineering & computer science gotta love em
Yes and no. If the longer first gear on the manual still has more torque on the wheels than the tires have grip, you basically dont lose anything, although it might be harder to get the launch right, with a launch control you can still get it decent. Meanwhile the automatic might have 40% more torque on the wheels in first gear, but that is unusable if the tires cannot drive that much torque into the ground. So it will reduce the power in the launch and shift to second, now youre in second gear while the manual car is still in its longer first gear, if you now compare the driving torque at that speed, it might actually be higher on the manual since its still in first. Playing with the ratios is a fun thing, but who cares about the 0-60 anyway. Porsche should probably keep the long 1st gear, but it would be great if the following gears were closer together. The really short 1st gear in the PDK and other DCTs is probably more to avoid slip in stop and go traffic.
Exactly what I was gonna comment.
That's the joys of fully customizable transmissions with changeable gear ratios. Gearing from 0-60 mph (or mpg) or gearing for 200+ mph, the choice is yours.
"Conventional" automatics that utilize a torque converter also multiply torque when they stall, known as flash, and if the valve body is calibrated correctly, with a high stall converter, will out-accellerate a manual transmission, however, this comes at the cost of reduced every day drivability.
i had a 103hp manual car before and my new 240hp auto shoots of the line way slower for the first few yards. it's really sad.
@@GraveUypo the manual version of my car had a 4:1 final drive, the auto a 2.27:1. And its turbocharged,so it's no drag racer.
2:13 I gasped in synch with the overlay
Was happy with the conclusion at the end 😏always manual.
He forgot the fact that automatics usually have more gears nowadays
ok so what? The automatic doesn't use even close to all the 10 gears to go 0-60. The 10 gears in the automatic are there just for the fuel economy and EPA crap. You can make all 5 gears in a manual short like the automatic and make the 6th gear very long for highway driving and good fuel economy
@@dieselgeezer18 but auto 8 speed can make 60mph at third gear, because shift time is so short and negligible.
With same gearing..
But if you going to manually shift from 1st gear to 3rd gear to reach 60mph, it will still take equal or more time to do. Assuming you take 0.5s to shift one gear, now you took 1s to do shifting. I dk probably you can do it faster.. But still maybe 0.4s per shift?
As someone who's been driving automatics 90% of my life switching to manual make driving fun again and I don't want to go back
It's how quick it shifts and the amount of gears.....
I love this guy but I'm not so sure about this. The reality is that it's simply impractical to have 10 or 12 gears in a manual and you can have that on a DCT/auto no prob. If you can have more gears, you can optimize for shorter gear ratios for faster 0-60. It'd be super annoying to have a manual with such short gear ratios, you'd be shifting nonestop.
Yeah, I think it’s a combination of both, but largely the point you mentioned about 9+ speed automatics.
I’d like to have a 7th in my car.
@@kc510 6th would be a nice addition to my 99 civic... also 30 lb ft of torque and next to no lumbar support.
@G A manual doesn't put down more power to the ground than a DCT or a locked auto.
@G Only for torque converter automatics when they're not locked. A DCT engages the gears with a clutch just like a manual. It's just that it has two clutches so it can have the next gear lined up ready to go.
I own a Manual 981 Boxster GTS and I have owned a couple of sports bikes in the past and my current bike is a Ducati 899 Panigale.
Coming from motorcycles I don't mind the long gearing, my 899 hits 90ish MPH in 2nd and Boxster 80ish MPH. I can use mostly the same shift points, and it also means I am very generous with revving the 3.4 liter boxer 6 engine like it was intended.
Now, motorcycles with 150+ hp make the first couple of gears very tall because short gearing will give it too much torque and lead to unwanted wheelies. My 899 will still power wheelie when hitting the powerband in 3rd. The tall 1st gear on the Boxster actually makes it usable than just getting off the line. It stills gets off the line rather well, and I don't even have to worry about shifting out of first until I cross 40 MPH, and I don't have to worry much about wheelspin either.
Optimizing for 0-60 is something I have no interest in. Give me maximum driver engagement any day.
I have owned an mx5 and love the engagement a manual gives you. But I now drive an automatic and don’t want to go back. It’s just so much easier and faster.
I found a way of having fun with an automatic: play with its numerous gears by accelerating and decelerating, upshifting and downshifting 3 or 4 gears at once!
So an automatic for me! 😎
Add to the fact its smooth shifts. Automatics are fun, just depends on individual's expectations and a tonne of other variables.
@@aaryeshg.6526 Yep, smoothness in shifts is amazing, especially when you're not in the mood and want to drive cool on your way! 😉
Only time I have fun with an auto is drive 50 mph then throw it in reverse, then manual swap the car. Did that with a shitbox 4 spd foxbody before it became my project car
The gear ratios are a big factor, but you left out two things: 1) More and more cars today are turbo. In a manual, not only did you not have constant throttle, but your turbo loses boost in between shifts, giving reduce the effect. In the 90s, turbo Volvos has 5 speed manuals with short gearing, and 4 speed autos with super long gearing. The autos were still quicker for the reason mentioned above.
2) Nowadays, many automatic cars have launch control. And if they're turbo automatic cars, then they actually boost under load before letting off to launch.
So, I really think that the gear ratio explanation is valid, but doesn't account for these other 2 factors mentioned above.
I know the feel, I have a 2020 mustang gt pp1 6 speed and the gears are way too long! Such a shame that the 5.0 is paired with bad gearing like this. I'm considering to change the rear end gear to 4,09.
What ratio do you have to begin with? Speaking from my own experience, the 3.73 is great for NA applications. Anything higher and you are entering Vin Diesel shifting territory. Would not recommend. Since I run boost on my 2012 Mustang, I went down to 3.15. Too much torque.
@@baffes4348 3.73 but in 2018 they changed the gear ratios and the gears are long, second gear is like 77 mph en 3rd is close to 115 mph
@@FrankTheTank8392 interesting. Previous models had 60 in 2nd with the 3.73. In this case you might enjoy that higher ratio as long as you stay NA. 👍
It's got 5 gears and 1 overdrive. That's more than enough in a MT. Want more, buy an AT. Mustangs have used Tremecs for ages and these have ALWAYS had long gears.
@@nightdriver7216 The mt82-d4 is the transmission they use in the 2018+ manuals, d4 stands for direct 4, so 4th gear has the 1 to 1 ratio, therefore the mt82-d4 is a 4 speed with 2 overdrive. 5ht is 0.81 and 6th is 0.62
This is why I rebuild old T-56’s for lt1’s and ls1’s. They aren’t the most refined transmissions on earth but they’ve got good gearing and can take a Rocky Balboa level beating
I especially agree with the closing statement
When i bought my VW Golf I had the choice of driving an automatic off the dealer's lot or ordering a manual. The automatic is decent: smooth in normal mode, responsive in sport mode, shifts as requested in manual mode. Does this mean I'm getting old?
I have a DSG Jetta GLI and I hate how sluggish it is to accelerate from a standstill, the transmission takes too long to release the clutch.
A manual allows you to actually "drive" the car. It feels more like a machine. I feel like I'm in an interactive game every time I drive my car. I absolutely love it.
💯
You bring back happy memories. Picture a third, passing lane going up hills in a very hilly province. Picture my old 122S with a 4-speed. Picture me blowing by V8s in kick-down that would top out a 75 mph whilst the Volvo would pull 85 MPH in third. See you later big iron, except by the time they topped the hill I was long gone. Happy days with happy gearing.
Two words: dual clutch. Automatics nowadays have two clutches. When you want to shift, the other gear is already connected. But old automatics were slow af.
Saying you didn't watch the video, without saying you didn't watch the video:
This whole video is bad news.
You basically just told us that Porsche will never shorten their manual gear ratios.
You have to get them re geared
I'm gonna have to think on this to agree. It used to be that the reason certain cars, and trucks, only came with an automatic is because it kept a ton of drivelines that were barely good enough from being warrantied by dealers. The drivers were pushing the performance limits of the the driveline. I know this from automotive engineers I've worked with. A manufacturer could save tons of money selling a car with an automatic that wouldn't crater everything from the clutch to the rear axles from a driver with a drag race attitude, by dropping instant torque on the driveline. This new idea...I have to think on it.
"If you buy a sports car with an automatic, you deserve to suffer." I am of the opinion that if you bought a sports car with an automatic, then you didn't buy a sports car. A performance car, or faster car, sure okay. But not a sports car.
Yes, if you have 8 and 9 gears in some automatics, then the first gears are geared shorter and the top gears can be geared longer for fuel efficiency, and the jumps between gears can be small, that is what gives the most benefit
I agree with your statement more gears in automatic these days keeps engine always in ideal rev range no lag.
@@ralphsmallblock4367 Also the torque converter (on the ones that still use it) can be made less elastic cause first gear is shorter and cars more powerful. My bro got a BMW like 8 speed, torque converter, turbo 270 hp, works very well although I like a classic manual, heel and toe, etc :) but progress is progress
Real men drive with three pedals … it’s nostalgic and it is a matter of understanding your true vehicle potential , can’t clutch kick in automatic . To drive manual means to be one with your car , not too concerned with speed of shifts unless I am racing . Even in racing though you feel your car when you shift with three pedals …. It is a skill and I’m sad it is dying for car enthusiasts
I think you're greatly oversimplifying, we could have a long discussion about this.
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I don't have a PDK Porsche. I have a ZF8 Audi A6. The first and second gear are very short and aggressive to the point that I don't really floor it unless I am out of those gears. The car has 430ft lbs of torque. Because it isn't a dual clutch, off the line you have to brake torque it. It will strain so hard the front of the car will rise and the rear squats . Launch is absolutely glorious and the 1-2 and 2-3 happen pretty fast. It does have a trans tune.
When I used to drive a manual, I'd just powershift the heck out of it. "Drive it like you stole it and never lift"
Well, there is also the fact that with manuals you are pretty much stuck to a 6 speed gate while automatics con go 7, 8, 9, 10 gears...that also contributes a lot not only to performance, but to mpg and noise levels aswell
Porsche has and GM had (in the C7 Corvette) a 7-spd manual trans.
Most important thing about the DCT in my BMW (apart from meaning I could afford to buy it in the first place) is that when I pull the gear lever at full tune it slams the next gear with a serious bang and that's very satisfying, although not quite as great as a good manual (which the manual version didn't have anyway)
That kick you feel at the seat of your pants when shifting the DCT at its fastest setting is exhilarating at best.
You forgot one aspect: In manual cars you don't want to have more than 6 gears because the gearshifter would become confusing and it would be annoying to shift every two seconds in traffic. As an automatic doesn't have these limitations, you can have more gears (Ford: 10) and make the ratios closer between each gear. This way, the transmission can keep the engine longer in the most powerful rpm range and the car accelerates quicker.
There are 7 speed manuals and they are not confusing. People that buy manuals dont get annoyed by shifting, lol. They want to shift gears.
@@EK-rr2md That might be true for people who really enjoy driving like you and me 😃
The '80s Porsche Turbo 911 4-speeds had high gears. Some guys on the west coast put 5.13 diffs in them to wake it up. The gear shift does account for at least .5 seconds. And lower gear ratios in the trans have helped significantly because there are more gears between first and OD, they will be lower ...I still want to manual swap my 3-speed with converter lock-up, even in an SUV for off-roading, b/c the diff is a 5.13. And the T-56 magnum 6-speed gearing, competition clutch group and lighter flywheel can do wonders with a lightweight V-6 crank.
A lot of auto has 8 speed where the manual in same car is 6 so it has not nearly as much range to take off, but so it prioritizes MPG.
Always dropping gems
At this point, it’s not a question of quickness but reliability. Fewer parts, fewer points of failure.
The choice between manual and automatic transmissions depends on what the driver wants from his/her driving experience. Not everyone wants to deal with the hassle of constantly pressing/depressing the clutch pedal, and working the shifter manually to upshift and downshift the transmission, especially during heavy traffic. There is also the added task of covering both the clutch and brake pedals while idling.
Some people prefer the convenience of shifting into drive and letting the car deal with the transmission. If sports cars with automatic transmissions were sins against the road automakers would have stopped producing them a long time ago.
However, some drivers prefer to be in complete control of the car. They enjoy task of providing the shift commands manually and being given the freedom to squeeze every ounce of power out of the engine without being limited by computer-controlled shift points.
I've driven manual and automatic transmission sports cars and have enjoyed both. In my opinion, the most fun thing about driving a sports car is working the throttle with your foot and hearing the engine roar as it creates the raw power that becomes acceleration. It doesn't matter what transmission is married to the engine. The gas pedal works the same. The act of smashing it with your foot is what makes driving a fast car fun. It's pretty much where the term "lead foot" comes from.
Being a few seconds quicker in a quarter-mile drag race or having the quickest 0-60 time only matters on a race track. Out on public roads, the only thing that matters is how fun the driving experience is. Some drivers will say its more fun to drive a manual. Others will say its more fun to drive an automatic. There is no right or wrong selection because one person's idea of fun driving can be different from someone else's.
I'll still buy manuals either way. They aren't just nerfing manuals on the final drive ratio though, they also slow down shift engagement for the manuals through both ecu tuning and hydraulic restriction on the clutch. The ECU tuned throttle hang is usually limited to sub 3k shifts, so not really a performance nerf even if it does ruin shift quality, but the increase in forced clutch slipping you see in modern transmissions really does slow things down and damage wear items. VW is hilarious with this. Check out the bleeder valve (next to the shift linkage under the air box). There's a little plastic donut in there that has a different diameter hole in the middle depending on if it's found in a golf, gti or R (in ascending hole size order). All of these cars are dramatically improved by entirely removing the restrictor, but if you were to swap the R unit into your alltrack, golf, etc.. you would nearly clone the driving experience of the R manual transmission. So they slightly ruin each transmission with this one little plastic piece in direct proportion to how little money you spent on the car it's attached to.