Not really a bad thing, more a question of how do you design the game to accommodate both changes. It’s a case of ‘the change will be good, if we can get it right.’
@@EarthLordCJ thats his answer to all all of the points people made though. just let the devs figure it out lol. chun has no throw loops "just redesign everyone" take throw loops out "just redesign perfevt parry"
@@nomaschalupas2453Yeah but that’s not really a rebuttal per se, is it? That’s just deflecting the question with the exact same question. “I can’t fix this, idk how” “Nah it’s deffo fixable, just let other people fix it, surely they’ll figure it out, trust” But in all seriousness, I get that it’s possible, just that it seems like there’s no good way to nerf PP without it making the whole game feel worse, or maybe just too different that it loses the old “feel” or “charm” if you get what I mean. PP already is heavily scaled and it’s still so good, more scaling probably won’t fix it, which means frame data changes will be necessary; the main thing I can think of is nerfing its shortened recovery, but then you run the risk of making punishes against safer attacks too inconsistent/unrewarding, which would be both frustrating and a bit too weak sounding? Not to mention how frustrating it would be to have established combo options removed so broadly when half the cast loses their biggest punish or something like that. And if the answer is “balance every character individually like Chun”, fair, but that’s basically as complicated as reworking corner carry anyway, in that both are EXTREMELY complicated and specific. And in this case, Chun’s counterbalance to a lack of throw loops is other strengths like fireball drive rush that are _supposed_ to be character-specific. So yes, counterbalancing everyone is possible, but massively complicated especially if you don’t want everyone to have the same exact counterbalances against it. And I also don’t think we’d really enjoy risking going backwards in balance for a bit while the devs fumble over how to do this with no good solution for 3 years or so, when that could arguably lead to more turnoff from the game and make the game less fun while we endure worse balancing of the game after playing a better version of it before. So I dunno, I think my main wish is just for Capcom to at least stop making throw loops even more rewarding than they already are since they seem intent to make them stronger, with jump cancel special being removed as a pro/advanced option even in the Dec patch to buff throw loop and technically remove a skill ceiling and interesting interaction. Stuff like that.
The ways in which I've seen this argument weren't as a "they couldn't _possibly_ change throw loops", but more as a response to people being like "just remove all of them next patch, easy 5Head" It's not a change the devs can just _snap_ and it's done, it would take time to put together
December 1st Balance patch, from CAPCOM for Street Fighter 6: - Chun-li; We found the performance of her corner pressure situation lacking, and have adjusted the advantage of her throw on the opponent in the corner to have enough advantage to repeat the sequence on wake up, in line with the rest of the cast
"-Is this just an overly complicated way of saying you gave her a throw loop ?" "-We found the initial wording of the changelog to underperform in the area of getting players to shut the f* up and get their as*es throw ten times ina row in the corner, so we multiplied the b*lls**t factor of the description by 3.8 in order to get them confused for at least a little while.
“It’s just Rock Paper Scissors! But if you choose Rock against my Paper I put you back in the loop where you choose Rock/Paper and if you guess Paper and I choose Scissors I do a gajillion damage and keep you in the corner and make you play RPS again.”
I think that the laziest and simplest solution is the 3rd Strike route of 6 frames of throw invul, so you can mash a 4-5 framer out of the loop without getting meaty thrown.
it's "lazy" but literally every other fighting game has something like this. Even in ST (it doesn't matter as much in ST cause while there is throw protection on wakeup, there's no throw protection on block, so just do a meaty jab then tick throw lol). Capcom just kind of threw it out starting with SF4 because reasons (?)
Not a simple solution at all with how parry is right now. People would just be mashing buttons and parry all day. SFV pseudo throw loops is much better
@@milorxngo Having this convo on youtube comments seems kind of silly but here I go: Taking Reversal DPS/Super out of the equation, Right now we have throw beating both mashed normals, and wake-up parry. Meaties beat normals and wake-up throw attempts, but lose to wake-up parry. The threat of getting back-thrown to the corner due to a parried meaty is too high, so the risk-reward is heavily in doing throw loops for how effective they are. If you make it so you can mash a light to beat a meaty throw, it would make doing meaties more enticing, IMO, opening up the game more.
Based Broski, finally someone mentioned how SF3 has throw protection and SFIV has crouch tech, SFV was the only game without strong defense like that and well, it's the game that removed throw loops ffs. I think the game would be so much better if everyone just had post throw oki like Chun, but not a guaranteed throw loop, specially since she's close enough that she CAN punish a bad wake up parry. The corner is already a terrible place to be in this game and you can get there REAL quick, so having to go full casino just to stand up and play the game is so stupid imo.
My issue with the SFIV exemple is that crouch tech didn't feel like an intended way to balance out throws in the game, even more so when they never brought that back with the whole "we want to get rid of option selects" in SFV. It led to situation where throws didn't amount much to nothing outside of basic tick throw mix-ups and even then, it's mostly characters who had kara throws who used them the most. On the topic of throw loops, I don't mind their existence in the game, I feel arguments like "it's not interesting spectator wise" is too subjective to be worth it, I've seen the amount of people finding it boring to be the same as people finding it hype. However, I do think the risk reward is not well designed and I think they should either outright reduce the rewards (maybe throws don't give punish counter when hit) or make it more committal, an exemple of committal would be making throws in the corner give you enough time to dash forward and get a meaty throw or a meaty light which would lead to situations where teching and perfect parry would still work and having drive reversal as the expensive and less rewarding but easier options. I'm a rusty ass boomer nowadays regarding fighting games, I barely go online outside of friends so my solutions are probably not the best but I don't think throw loops are the harm in themselves, it's the skewed rewards.
As someone who works in games, I've seen designers die on hills like this crap where they will pretzel the rest of the systems to work around an unpopular mechanics to make a point 'see it works.'
This isn't a problem exclusive to throw loops though. SFV is when I heard "take the throw" so much because of the same reason, and then I see the clip of someone throwing (I think) Tokido until he died.
@@Boyzbyif you took the throw in 5 you’d get reset to neutral. That’s why you took the throw. In 6 if you take the throw you’re still in a position to get thrown again
@bigdunks4eva it's so draining when you don't have this option and your option close to it, isn't nearly as good. Having 2mp as my "2mk" is do bad bc it gets stuffed so easily
A lack of mixups definitely adds to the problem. In 5, you'd see a lot of action at the 3/4 screen with two people fighting over who gets the corner. Now it's just left corner>right corner>left corner carry.
@Thorgue1910 what dont you like about vtriggers? I ask cuz usually everyone says the same thing cuz of abigail... i started with sf4 and vtriggers was the only thing that made it seem like sf4 to me and it not necessarily on vtriggers i appreciate being able to pick different variants of the same characters like MK does keeps everyone from playing exactly the same like sf6 every match is deja vu corner combo into throw loop every match
I think truthfully, as a Manon main, its very difficult mentally to go against characters with 1, a true reversal, and 2, them knowing I dont have one and they maul me with a confidence that I cant have against them.
I think corner carry is the real enemy, but that throw loops are also silly. The corner is a nightmare in SF6 by design but the 'work' required to put someone there is non-existent. It used to be that playing defensively was giving up space, and eventually cornering yourself, which was a horrible position to be in. Now? I got a cr. mk from three-quarters of the way through the stage and drive rushed into putting you into the corner instead. Feels bad.
It's a whole package, it works both ways, if throw loops weren't a thing, then being in the corner wouldn't be that insufferable, thus corner carry wouldn't be that much of a problem, If neutral was more stable, then both corner carry and corner game could be okay
@@drakohelli8164 I completely agree throw loops are bad game design and the game doesnt need them. Im also saying that its not the corner thats the problem at all and its not really a package deal. Corner would still suck regardless of throw loops.
I've heard someone say juri has the perfect type of throw loop before. She doesn't have enough time to dash for the throw and hit you with a meaty that can do 50% combo she has to commit to the throw or a meaty without the dash.
Speak for yourself, throw loops are a mind game and if a high level player gets thrown multiple times because they are scared to engage then that's hype.
A lot of the actually "exciting" sfl eu sets ended in that kind of manner, and you could always see the chat start whining and complaining when it happened. It goes from people on the edge of their seats, to just whining.
A mind game with Stupids odds, Which makes it a bad and boring one. The game risk reward pushes both player towards it, They could be hype if they were scarce, if you actually had to condition your opponent into mindlessly taking throws on repea
@@chadfrancis7335There are pure guesses in mind games too. Losing because you guessed wrong doesn't necessarily mean you were outplayed or outsmarted by your opponent, it could be that you were just unlucky because you had a 1/2 chance to pick the right option, and you picked the wrong one. If you enjoy watching that, good for you. But I can assure you it's not fun for a majority of people.
Yeah I know what you feel, I come from KoF. This throw loops thing is hilarious. On top of that mobility options in this game is suck. You jump you dead 🤭
That's because Capcom is terrible at fixing issues. They can try, but their predisposition at favoring a particular playstyle prevents them from actually fixing what they don't see as a problem.
@@hermontarmand2404that second one is just what Street Fighter is though. Street Fighter but with whacky jump mechanics is exactly what you're playing KOF for man. You played a different game to play a different game, not more of the same
@@hermontarmand2404this breeds the natural follow-up question: why? Why did you even START hoping for SF to become KOF. The POINT of the games in the genre being different is just that. DIFFERENCE. Nuance. Varied experiences. I don't play BlazBlue because I ACTUALLY want to play grounded, slow neutral but with a BB paint job. I play BlazBlue when I want to do, and get DONE IN by, the grimiest mix this side of the sewer pipes.
The solution is to make throws groundbounce so you can do a sickass combo. Less throws will happen per match, and it'll look cooler for spectators! Win/Win!
Though that could make throws way to powerful in neutral as well, especially in corner carry to further continue throw loops, while also just making it even harder for the defender. But to be honest, I do wanna see throws groundbounce, so idk, maybe make it so they only can be comboed after if done near the corner?
@26:40 that's exactly my thought. You can get rid of throw "loops" and still have throw "loops." The FGC is really stuck on stupid, in that whatever the dev's give them, the FGC develops this group think, in that nothing can ever be any different than what they were given. "no we have to have throw loops because of xyz" ... and this is why we keep getting FG's that are more frustrating to play than ever, cuz we're not incentivizing the dev's to listen to the customer anymore. The customer has been trained to simply shut up and be happy with what you're given, unfortunately and any dissenting opinion is quickly drowned out with pro status quo bs
i think decreasing corner carry across the board would make the game more fun. throw loops would be a rarer reward, other than a constant occurrence. another solution is just giving every character a special that punishes throw attempts, kinda like cammy. that would slow down the game for the better.
My solution to end throw loops is to basically remove shimmy from the equation: make them require a forward dash for setup. The scary part of the throw loop is the shimmy, so make the attacker commit to backdash/neutral jump so you can get a real reward if you guess right on defense; you can wakeup DR against neutral jump to steal the corner, or wakeup buttons to catch backdash. Right now the risk of attempting a shimmy is just too low, especially if the opponent doesn't have a threatening c.MK->DR (either bad character, or bad meter situation).
For this to work, you'd need it to be that forward dash is plus enough to give advantage, but not plus enough for you to walk back. But then you still have backdash shimmy which is punishable by reversal and neutral jump shimmy which gets blown up by anti air. But both still blow up delay tech and even without shimmy you could just delay button.
@@BlueLightningSky Delay button means you can lose your turn (or even get hit) by wakeup buttons which is a fair risk/reward, and if your opponent reads delay button they can wakeup backthrow, which is a HUGE reward. In throw loop situations, shimmy just doesn't have enough risk relative to the payout. The only thing shimmy really loses to is wakeup c.MK->DR, which itself loses horribly to anything that isn't shimmy.
In the beginning I thought they were necessary but I hate them now, there are other solutions to punish perfect parry attempts. Make throws loop on punish counter only and bam, now throw is a read or reaction to wake up parry. You could make them auto tech instead of throw invulnerability which would mean throw is still the lower risk and lower reward option for parry reads.
It's funny because I played a lot of SF4, but never played SF5. Not being able to crouch tech in SF6 was one of the first things I noticed when starting out. I wasn't aware of how silly throw loops were then, but it definitely made me feel uneasy.
@@charlieharrington9555 yeah, crouch tech in SF4 was mega stupid IMO, because SF4 also allowed your light buttons to be converted into full combos. your fastest, safest button was also your throw break OS which was also your combo-into-knockdown-into-oki starter move. there was basically no reason to ever press any other button from close range.
@@charlieharrington9555 Yes I agree, and it's probably why I noticed it so quickly, because it was one of the main defensive options in the corner. Though to be fair it was a bit better than throw loops because openings were created by frame trapping instead and the offensive player has the corner, so they are rewarded with a better combo on hit, and the defending player is rewarded with getting out of the corner on hit but gets slightly less damage. So the outcome for both players is pretty balanced when someone guesses right. So the corner became less about throwing and more about frame trapping, and both players were rewarded in some way for guessing right. I don't think crouch tech is good to have, but it's definitely better in terms of coin flipping than throw looping.
To be fair on SFV it started with both throw loops and meterless reversals and when they removed those it was too costly to get out of throw loops by spending a bar so they had to get throw loops out as well. I think Capcom just thinks that spending drive to get out it's cheap enough to keep them, whether that's true or not it's a different story
Weren't meterless invincible reversal pretty rare in SF5 before they were removed? From what I know it was only Ken, Ryu, Cammy, and Necalli. So most of the cast still either had to spend bar or just had to deal with throw loops before meterless reversals were removed. It really doesn't seem logical for a universal mechanic to be removed because some characters had to spend a bar to get out of throw loops now.
The risk/reward of throws that you mention is overall a big sticking point for me when it comes to the overall design of a lot of the most recent era of fighting games focusing on strike/throw being the only "real" mix, with high/lows and left/rights being weaker or more niche--it's /very/ difficult for the developers to tune the risk/reward on each option in a character's mix and offense when it's fundamentally strike/throw, because throws are fundamentally designed with extreme risk. They don't want newer players to have the experience of being in an unfamiliar blender and simply never escaping (and so they stick to the most baseline mix), which is understandable, but it's a restriction that takes away a ton of design tools.
SF6 mitigates the risk from the attacker side some, but the risk/reward matrix is still pretty rigid on either side, and I think fighting games are worse for it.
I completely agree with you. But I don't think this is a modern era fighting game problem at all, it's just street fighter. All modern games are as mixup heavy as ever, it's just capcom decided since street fighter 5 that strike throw is the one true fair mixup. They probably didn't like how sf4 turned out and thought it was too much so they dialed it back as time went on. I fear that if they nerf throw loops and corner carry without adding mix and nerfing parries, the game will get exposed for how gutless offense really is outside of throws and it'll turn into a turtle fest. You don't even have plus buttons without drive. It's a great well designed fighting game, but it's too rigid.
You run my favorite Street fighter channel on yt and I'm so happy with how often you create videos. With the fact that this is my first ever fighting game i learned a kot from you and I feel as if you were my older brother who knows it all and is always there to help and entertain
Honestly I think the biggest issue is the risk reward, h9w hard it is to hit someone for attempting throw. I like throws in fighting games as a tool to punish passivity, but doing what throws are supposed to make you do, being active, has such little reward because throws have such short recovery for no reason
One other con that I think isn't brought up when it comes to throw loops is how they are the great equalizer on defense in a way that strips the defender of skill and expression. If you were to take gameplay of two Gold players with one getting throw looped and compare it to the Booce/Thunder video while removing the player info, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them. The sheer lack of reliable counterplay combined with the extreme skew in risk/reward means that, as you mentioned, taking the throw is always the less risky option. As such, when I see a pro player get thrown 3+ times in a row, I can never say "oh man, why is he letting that happen?" It is simply mathematically correct to just take the throw, which removes agency from the defender that would be present in other games and reduces defending to all bad, risky options. Throw loops inherently make the game more scrubby as a result, and until they are removed SF6 will have a serious problem with defense, with a great deal defensive expression and skill in the corner being reduced to "just don't guess wrong."
Saying it's mathematically correct to take the throw is weird when too often ppl just refuse to pick the option that actually can win the game, which is jumping out of the corner. If you stay in the corner you lose, if you eat two throws and suddenly can't survive meter dump you lose. Jumping out of the corner in contrast actually can win the game because of how deadly the corner is. Ppl need to high roll more when they actually have the health to survive meter dump. Corner literally is the win condition, so you're gonna lose some games when you get put there. You can make huge comebacks eating a crosscut DP against someone who only knows throw loop setplay.
If I am honest, I really don't understand the argument that SF6 style throw loops are necessary to reign in throw loops. I think that SF5 style throw oki (you get a minus, meaty button) could do the job just fine now that wiff parry recovery has been nerfed. In both cases you can get a meaty button, which would get perfect parried if they woke up with it. On the flip side if you tried to bait a reversal or parry you can react to the parry and walk up and punish it with a throw.
The issues are two fold, the biggest is parry, r throw loops need to exist at least on punish counter at least or else the risk/reward of wake perfect parry attempts are waaaay too good. The other is that SFV throws had a different use Remember SFV had gray health and a stun bar and lots of plus frames in general so generally throws were used to cash out damage or trigger stun rather than for keeping pressure.
There was a comment scrolling by in your chat that basically had my preferred solution. You can make throws leave people at a further distance, but punish counter throw should be buffed (with some extra reward, not necessarily damage) so that throws are still an appropriate threat to perfect parry. I think that fixes the problem very quickly and elegantly. Lots of corner carry makes sense to leave in this game when you consider the relationship it has to burnout.
video made me realize this game doesnt have mash beating throw LOL they have that in strive as an option along with backdash and jumping. didnt know how oppressive streets throw loop really was
Throw loop is being blown way out of proportion. I'm not saying it's good game design but it's actually infinitely better to space trap a cornered opponent in sf6 because jumping out of the corner is extremely strong and a real way to heavily outplay throw loops. And Drive dmg from spaced pokes is still devastating.
@A2ZOMG that could all be true but like broski says it's just not fun to watch or play. this along with other grips I have with the game keep me away from playing it more. if the game isn't fun why bother learning it
@@critcrusader1543 it's fine if you don't like sf6, just I want to clarify that a lot of content creators don't actually give very good faith arguments about throw loop counterplay. It is true throw oki is designed to be relatively low immediate risk in sf6, but people not acknowledging jump out of the corner literally being a lose condition for your opponent is a major flaw in many ppl's complaints about throw loop. As I like to put it, the corner is so ridiculously deadly that throw looping - something your opponent can counterplay by jumping out of the corner - is actually one of your weaker offensive options overall.
@@HellecticMojo getting AAed by crosscut DP literally is the point because now you're out of the corner and your opponent is in their lose condition if you successfully tech the DR throw. Jump out of corner is actually used quite a lot in top level play and it's quite literally game winning BECAUSE corner control is so powerful. That's actually better than a divekick punish a lot of the time unless the divekick ends the round with SA3. So no the game for the most part doesn't actually *need* better punishes to throw loops when losing corner control actually can equal losing the game. Again this is not saying throw loops are good design. It is simply arguing people need to also acknowledge how powerful jump out of corner is.
That bit about the wakeup os in 3s is incorrect if I'm not mistaken. Inputting a parry locks you out of throw teching for it's duration so if you tried to tap down and crouch tech after you'd just get thrown. The actual anti throw wakeup os to use is guard jumping, guarding during the throw invul to block any meaties and jumping right as it ends. Delayed crouch teching is still very useful tho
I've said this for a while. I'm not a great player but I like to watch pro play and the number of times I see them counting off the throw reps... is just... disappointing. Things I don't like when watching competitive fgc: ohko, looooong ass combo, throw loops, Things I like seeing: Unique character mechanics, multiple combo routes being used to react to the current situation, basically variety variety variety. I want to be in awe not just that a pro player executed a difficult combo, but that they picked the right route of several options available. When things get repetitive or simple (throw loops and throw loops) I tune out completely.
Cynical take and maybe close to a conspiracy theory but I'm wondering if Capcom feels like they've generally achieved good balance and are now scared to rock the boat much. It seems like they aren't willing to make big sweeping changes to shake the game up like arcsys does (for better and worse). They've got a formula here for decent balance and I think they know that but man the game just isn't very fun to me at the end of the day even if it's balanced
Then they need to be dosukoi'd in the face because their balance does not feel good at all. I think there's a lot of dissatisfaction people feel about their own mains currently. "Why don't I have that" " why does that not work" "what's the point of this move" kind of internal balance issues. I seriously don't think anyone was actually happy with the last patch at all with their own characters let alone overall meta
@HellecticMojo those three questions are always gonna happen regardless unless you have a homogenonized cast. Then you get dbfz, where characters feel generally the same. It's okay for certain tools in a character's toolkit to particular or even bad. As long as they have a do-able gameplan that is cohesive (to some degree)
@@shanejohnson8403 and homogenized abilities are a good thing. There has never been a good balance defined by lack of ability. SF6 isn't suffering from comparable tool kit issue of "why does guile get better fireball than me" vs "why can Ryu upgrade their fireball" kind of arguments. The cast has dire disparities of abilities where things straight up don't function. Zangief OD lariat loses to jump ins. OD Lariat, metered anti air, that's not even far reaching or fully invincible, loses to jump ins. You know who got the anti air buff on a normal that's better than lariat? JP, the zoner. This is the levels of disparity I'm talking about. Since you mentioned DBFZ, this is Videl lacking deflect or Season 1 Broly being unable to 2H Krillin or Gotenks super dash tier of unfairness and disfunction
I’m so glad you brought up corner carry. I genuinely think the fact that so much of this game is played in the corner makes the issue feel more pronounced. I’m not even saying I’m pro throw loop, or that I think they’re good design. I just think it’s a more noticable issue because a single hit flings you so far
Really is the sort of stuff that has a million possible ways they can address it, from the suggested in the video to others like making the stages longer instead or even make drive reversal better on counter hit/punish counter. Whatever they choose to do, if they do, I'm more curious than anything on how they'll go about it.
I think throwloops could be entertaining to watch if they had escalating animations like manon's grab. It would make it hype to see a character's rare 7th grab.
E honda is such balls in this game, it's incredibly funny how many people thought he was so op when the game first game out. Now you have to be some kind of lab god to play him, I'm lost.
Broski and Sajam should have a debate about this as both players are very intelligent and understand fighting games but have very different views on throw loops. Sajam's arguement is basically throw loops are necessary because of how strong parry is. But I'd have to agree with Broski on basically every point he made.
Just as a note, 3S prevents you from throw teching while a parry window is active, the OS I think you're thinking about is SGGK where you block low for a few frames and then jump away. But yeah, the throw protection window is a huge part of why throws aren't quite as oppressive in that game. A character like Dudley can rip a 5f startup HK that goes into his main combo routes while being invincible to throws.
@LoraLoibu Yep, his primary combo starter that's also his quick whiff-for-meter normal and is surprisingly good at stuffing and whiff punishing due to its hitbox is ALSO only 5f startup. Which means it gets to beat throws on wakeup.
I appreciate you using Manon in most of your early examples, to really emphasize what some of the cast has to deal with lol. Also what you said about sf3 and sf4, cause I feel that one gets spun around a ton.
I was thinking though, couldn't he- pre-jump cancel grab with manon as an ultra-hard read? I remember it being a thing back in 5, at least for gief/birdie/abimagail.
@@aadaaadasda9979 tbh, I've never seen anyone bring it up that she could do it, but I'd imagine the issue is that she can potentially move a little before hers comes out. Maybe there's some issues with invuln frames there.
@@XenonAgenT01 her command grab being half circle has nothing to do with her not being able to cancel pre jump frames. it can be DP and it would still not be the thing that stops her from being able to do that. And she actually is able to do that. The problem is she has 4 prejump frames instead of 5 like Zangief so it's harder to do. I don't know how meaty that Ryu setup is but I think 4 frames is still enough.
Broski, vids like this are exactly why I follow you! This is SO informative and explains WAY better than I ever could why I (also) think throw loops are dumb. THANK YOU!
People who say that throw loops are a 50/50 guess should play heads-or-tails with me where if it's heads, I give them $1, and if it's tails they give me $20. Cuz they deserve such a game.
I think anyone who makes the argument that "throw loops are required for sf6 to work" has essentially just stated that sf6 is fundamentally designed wrong, in the sense that it relies on an aggressively boring, unfun, and disproportionately stressful gameplay pattern to function.
Bingo. I don't know why players are afraid to say the game has fundamental flaws. Outside of perfect parry, we have a parry that negates high lows and cross ups and we have drive reversals. Most characters have no plus buttons without drive gauge. Most characters either can't do reliable high lows and crossups from most situations or their reward off them is poor, barring exceptions like JP Rashid blanka, and they need meter to do it as well. Many many offensive sequences do not work cause they can be drive impacted. Any sane person would understand why they're insisting on throw loops being there, and why corner carry is so high. The game has no offense outside of throws loops with the current system mechanics. capcom has cornered itself (no pun intended) when they designed the game, they'll have to massively overhaul how everything functions to remove throw loops.@@SpawnPirate
@@SpawnPirateBingo. I don't know why players are afraid to say the game has fundamental flaws. Outside of perfect parry, we have a parry that negates high lows and cross ups and we have drive reversals. Most characters have no plus buttons without drive gauge. Most characters either can't do reliable high lows and crossups from most situations or their reward off them is poor, barring exceptions like JP Rashid blanka, and they need meter to do it as well. Many offensive sequences are risky because of drive impact. Any sane person would understand why they're insisting on throw loops being there, and why corner carry is so high. The game has no offense outside of throws loops with the current system mechanics. capcom has cornered itself (no pun intended) when they designed the game, they'll have to massively overhaul how everything functions to remove throw loops.
@@ethangonzalez9265 IMAO All we need is a scaling throw loop. Every re-throw done with a time interval of less than 100 frames. Scale -50%, And during the throw loop we have damage 1200, 600, 300, 150, ... .And that will be enough.
I think they'd either have to remove it entirely or add some kind of damage scaling, making it work as if it were some kind of combo, with one of the purposes being simply comiting to a real risk to bait stuff like DPs or wake up super, or something like that. And I also think I'd be cool if the damage scaling was one that kind of gets a damage decaying system to it, so that if you ended up taking over 3 throws, you would take damage similar to a jab, or something.
19:22 this needs to be a more commonly discussed topic in the FGC. I'm more of a tekken guy, but I've done the math many times for different Tekken characters and you get a much better understanding of their offense and realize the truly balanced/unbalanced mixups in the game. I think expected value can bring a lot of valuable perspective that the FGC desperately needs.
Fuudo is kinda right about buffing Throws. I had the same idea where throwing a cornered opponent would launch them in the air, which leads to a 50% juggle combo. It deals with the fun AND the skillfloor problem you mentionned but nontheless the lack of "safe" defensive options would still need to be adressed.
One solution that I thought of a that I haven't seen anyone else suggest is that each successive throw deals 50% less damage, 1000, 500, 250 and so on. This way throws are still and important and reliable tool to punish Parry (or just catching people by surprise who are blocking too much) but doing a throw loop becomes less rewarding very quickly. "Take the throw" is somehow the best move since it's better to take 1000 or even 3000 damage over eating a Standing HP which turns into a 5000+ combo, regardless it was a lose/lose situation. This change wouldn't flip the tables but it would take away a massive amount of advantage the thrower has because they're no longer getting free damage and will become more likely to start throwing out a strike instead with each throw which the person on the backfoot can take advantage of and better predict when that happens to either block or attempt a reversal to get themselves out of the corner. It's also changes throw loops from being boring for everyone involved and spectators to an intense game of chicken with both players trying to deduce from HP, Drive Gauge, time left, characters being used and individual player habits on what the best next move will be.
Nope. Somebody else mentioned that in a reply and I'm not sure if they just took the idea from you first but that wouldn't work. Even if the throw did 0 damage after the 2nd one people would still do them over and over because it locks down the opponent and eats up round time. It would also make it an even better situation to just eat the throws and not get out because you'd still be at risk of eating a massive death combo. I'm not sure if you were around for SF4 Omega's release but Gen had a stupid easy target combo infinite that if you got hit by, eventually scaled to doing like 1 damage. If you blocked it he would still just mash until you lost the round through time out because it was impossible to escape since you were locked in blockstun.
@@EpsilonKnight2 I get it, I still think I have something with punishing consecutive throws. Like perhaps after the second throw the thrower is pushed back further than before or even have a couple of extra frames of recovery so while they're still plus they can't throw their opponent instantly again. Whatever change that happens to stop throw loops has to not weaken the initial throw and the power they have since they're so vital vs Parry.
@@BlueEye096 I think Broski's solution works best where a throw can still be used to punish a parry if they go for it but it just can't be used meaty over and over due to range.
I think what argument as well is a drive system itself, like the game punishes your drive gauge in form of punish counters for guessing wrong, the fact what this situation limits your offensive/defensive options makes it hard to commit to an answer May be it's a hot take
What if they made it so that certain moves cannot be perfect parried so that they are safer to throw out? That way you can nerf throw oki without making perfect parry too strong.
That was the perfect summarization of the issue, counterarguments included. Thanks a million for this, I'm going to link it during future debates of the topic from now on.
I believe that when they increased the frames of parry recovery, to me anyway, it became lots easier to PC grab ppl that woke up parry. for pros, who generally have tighter shimmies, theyd easily be able to take advantage of someone wake up parrying, even if they dont get the pc grab, they might be able to get a pc button, or at least a pressure string (and keep corner).
I don’t even believe that perfect parry would be too strong without throw loops, if they parry on wake-up to beat meaties they would just lose to throw anyways am I missing something
Hence why people defend throw loops. If you can't loop, you'd always parry or block because threat of throws don't exist. You are combining two opposite scenarios, hence the confusion.
@ yea but if you parry on wake-up you’re just gonna get walk up thrown for 2000 damage, you’d have to meaty more on offense which would open you up to more perfect parries but walk up throw still smokes tap parry (especially after the tap parry nerfs)
@@JamNCam yeah, but TL defenders don't want that because perfect parry into back throw shuts down their offense advantage. It gives the defender the control of the initiative on the ground as the attacker is the one who has to read the defender, not the other way around. People want their meaty
the 3rd strike anti-throw option select actually will not work. parry into delayed throw input actually locks you out of being able to throw tech in 3S. If you do that and then see a throw tech, thats not you, the defender, teching the opponent's throw, that's the opponent teching YOUR throw. but as you mentioned already, it already has throw invul on wakeup so technically it doesnt even need it also, while I think i would have said I was "pro" or at least "neutral " on throw loops prior, you explained the situation in a way that I think has changed my mind. I hope capcom doesnt completely gut throw oki like in SFV (I LIKE grabs), but changing things so true throw loops arent a thing anymore would probably be a good idea. also if gief loses his throw loop then that means give him back oki on his command grabs smile :)
I always thought it was weird that ppl say SF6 is more spectator friendly when its just DR > combo, throw loops in corner lol. I much prefer V triggers as a spectator. oro loops, Akira mixup, etc are vastly more entertaining as a spectator imo
Seriously, i always expect like dead silence when it happens based on how people talk about them but it’s unironically often the loudest the crowd gets during tournament sets
I'm a fighting game casual, but also old enough to have watched high-level SF play since SF2:TWW. I second the fact that SF6's throw loops are silly AF to watch. I was mystified why a game that looks so great seems to devolve into 2 pro guys doing the same thing over and over whenever they reach the corner. Thanks for explaining why this game has this low-level meta that none of the previous games had. I did not know that SF6 didn't give pros the tools to elevate gameplay out of this shit-tier meta; I just assumed such basic tools should be available in a respectable fighting game. This is a meta suitable for noobs not pros!
So to explain the 'necessity', perfect parry breaks the risk/reward too much, not because of the numbers that could be tweaked, but because of it's function and existence. They preserve the offensive advantage to getting a knockdown. If I want to defend on wake-up but I know my opponent can only ever meaty or wait, then the implication is I can condense my wakeup options to either block or reversal. But if block rewards a punish on parry, it creates a situation where the player that scored the KD is "rewarded" with a 50/50 chance to take damage on their offense plus reversal beating meaty options. The inverse of 'take the throw' risk mitigation would kick in and the optimal play would be reset to neutral every KD. The offense gets even more weird when you realize that parry on wakeup is rewarding to the defender, but leads to a counter throw loop that melts you faster when read anyways. Because there's no risk to blocking on your opponents wakeup and waiting to react to parry recovery, meaty strike would effectively not be an option, it would be sub optimal in every situation, AND the new throw loops would be more punishing and more guess heavy. You would just be shifting the guess to a different section of offense with less options and less margin of error, not eliminating the guess that's currently present on the meaty throw. So I would argue the issue is with how perfect parry is implemented, and would be fine with throw loops not existing but not in a game with perfect parry existing because offense would feel awful.
Give a few frames of throw auto-tech on wakeup (except when using parry). This means you can still throw to beat perfect parry, but it's back to "neutral" if the read is wrong.
@@mawillix2018 That makes the situation worse for the attacker as parry would always be safe. Being able to throw parry on wakeup is a hard requirement otherwise there is no KD pressure.
@@mawillix2018 Yeah I did, but it's still a really bad solution for a bunch of other reasons. Namely this would hit throw set ups that are meaty from knockdowns that aren't from throw, and it is still the same more punishing throw loop scenario if you're going for "consistently less punishing than trying to jump, backdash, or tech"
I'm kind of indifferent to throw loops. They're not fun but I also think people overreact to them. I would agree removing them would be a good option and yeah if Chun has the template for that already they should just go with it and adjust characters like Juri and Akuma for it.
*I wonder if delayed wake-up that was added in USF4 would make any difference. A good addition but would probably only get rid of the setups not the core problem*
agree with everything you're saying here, particularly the "it's not fun" bit. I haven't played SF6 in a few months cause it stopped being fun for me and throw loops are my least favorite mechanic in this game. and like I know i'm not the best player, I was at mid-diamond level which is still okay for a filthy casual. I repeatedly said "I guess I'm dead" whenever I got cornered. there just isn't a good option to get out, you have to take massive risks while the person doing the throw loop has very safe options. and like you pointed out in the video, it's so easy to corner carry in this game that spacing feels irrelevant. I dunno, it's pretty frustrating at my level. I'm not willing to dedicate the hundreds of hours to get good at this game and even if I did i'd still get thrown in the corner so what's the point. I still love street fighter but it's been a spectator sport for me for a long time now.
i do not remember being throw looped in mid diamond enough for it to give me this opinion. only once i hit master are people somewhat using it. kinda odd this made you drop the game
It's fair to stop playing a game if you aren't having fun obviously but man, every time I play I'm diamond I'm pretty much always holding up forward in the corner and it works most of the time because diamond players don't know that they have to do strikes before throw loops to get the opponent to sit still
Active master player here, that's still my response to getting throw looped anyway lol. "Guess I lost" as soon as the second throw hits. I love the game still but I think it's telling that I picked up JP just because he had a real way to punish meaty throw.
They dont need to remove throw loops they should add more high/low mixups, more crossups, and unblockables. This would make the offense less boring and defense more engaging.
@@yagami999913 no what he meant is that mix ups in sf6 are generally weak due to parry. Overheads are very weak and reachable and left right are very rare.
6:00 imo I think enough players who don't play fighting games would see this and think "ha ha I want to do the funny", and buy the game to do the dumb, funny thing. I think they're boring, but I could see players seeing this, thinking 'that's hilarious, and it looks easy enough that I could do it'
I don't deny your knowledge, but some of your points are hot takes. For instance, you mentioned there's not enough counterplay - and then harped on not being able to punish the throw even if it is teched. Why should you be able to punish me off of a wake-up throw read when you lost neutral to be knocked down in the first place? That would just be nonsense and youd see more usage of shimmys because the risk is too high to try and get more damage. The game would be way more defensive and we dont need that. Throw tech, strike, OD reversals, back dash, supers, drive reversals, plenty of counterplay exists. Youre right that not all characters can deal with it and id argue alongside with you if its so polarizing they should be buffed to compensate and deal with such. Your other point about supporting throw loop removal meaning parry on wakeup would be even stronger or too strong - the same arguement could be made for throw loops. Parry is on its way for a nerf when it comes to perfect parrying anti-airs and such - its a strong mechanic already. i think a sweet spot would be to add damage scaling on meaty throws on wakeup. not as rewarding, gives them more oppurtunities to get out of the corner.
The counterplay exists obviously but as Broski said after 19:30, the issue becomes the risk-reward. If the player on offense goes for a throw loop but gets teched, he still has the corner and all the dangers it comes for the defending player: more damage potential, DI splat, stun if a burnout situation. And that is still the most low-risk, low reward for the defending player. Had he guessed wrong and went for a super or reversal, he could have taken more damage AND still be in this situation. And as was said in the video, losing a bar of super or two bars of drive meter can just put you in a worse position in the long run. Considering how easy being hit mid screen and dragged to the corner in a single interaction, the big take is how incredibly rewarded the offensive player is for what often is a random hit mid screen. Should the offensive player be rewarded for hitting his opponent? Absolutely. To this extent? Probably not.
Strike doesn't beat throw loop. Backdash doesn't beat throw loop. Just gives you a measly +1 at best. Invul OD reversal ? Not everyone has it. Having to use a super to beat a mere throw is bad design. And getting me into the corner isn't much of an accomplishment in Corner Carry Fighter 6, so yeah i should be able to have a better time defending myself in the corner. The first throw you get is your reward. Any subsequent throw beyond that should at least lose to wakeup jab. Basically give Chun's throw to everyone as a bare minimum solution. Sorry, but your wall of text added nothing meaningful to the discussion.
Throw loops are not only boring, but are low Effort. It also doesn’t help that some Fighters have really good corner carry to get you into a throw loop (Ken, Cammy, Akuma, Luke).
@@Dhampire1976Teching a throw is too risky for the reward. The reward is going back to neutral, but you’re still in the corner. The Risk is losing over half your health.
As a chun-li main, yes, get rid of throw loops 😂. In all seriousness for the people thinking it would break the game and ruin characters we already saw season 1 Chun was top 5, so we already know we don't need this mechanic. Just make everyone able to mash a wakeup 4 framer to beat throw loops, and it will be better like how Chun-Li works right now.
TLDR: Make everyone's throw situation like Terry's, where you still meaty throw, but you can backdash and punish a throw attempt My problem with making everyone's throw situation like chun's is that I think it nerfs the characters that rely on corner offense as a win con too much. Chun is okay with her throw situation because she is already a somewhat defensive, neutral focused character, so she's not too bothered with having to back off on corner offense more often due to the risks. But giving that situation to characters like Ken or Cammy, or let's say bad characters like Jamie or Kimberly that rely on their corner offense to win rounds is too much. The specific problem with Chun's throw situation is that because your only option to beat their wakeup button is to meaty strike, there is a defensive pure 50/50 where you either perfect parry their meaty, or mash out of anything that doesnt get parried. Again chun is fine with this because shes a more defensive character but others would not be. My suggestion instead would be to make everyone's throw situation like Terry's, where you dash up and you're +3, meaning you can throw and beat their button, but they can also backdash on wakeup and punish you, introducing real risk to going for throw. I think with this change you also give the slow backdash characters standard backdashes so they aren't left in the cold but yeah. Another way to do this is to buff every backdash by a few frames so it recreates the same punish even on perfectly meaty throws, and this also makes backdash less reactable on shimmy. Edit: I like the second way more actually, makes the throw situations less homogeneous while making it less degenerate
I do also have some ideas about perfect parry, because you still would need to address that with this change. I think that that problem with parry is that there is no punishment for mistiming your frame 1, strike direction agnostic, complete situation reversal option. The only way to deal with perfect parry is to throw it, or wait and then throw it on reaction. My suggestion would be to make normals (not specials) have 4 more frames of block stun, like a burnt out opponent, on normal parry. This means that there is an actual downside beyond "what if they throw me" to going for perfect parries all the time, if they delay their strike avoiding your parry they get to continue pressure more easily if they're paying attention.
isn't whole reason why chun li can operate as strong character is because her normal's have disgusting reach. She's out spacing the cast. You can't use an example where the character is outspacing entire cast as case study that "Look, here's strong character without throw loops, she's fine". Having bigger reach than most characters normal's means that you don't need throws as openers to break an opponent defence. your simply whiff punishing/spacing out your opponent and than doing a combo.
@@ividboy7616 outspacing your opponent is very unique strength for a character. you can't replicate it because it tends to be unique property of that character. in other words, there can only be one of that character for archetype function. Unless you make game like Injustice 2 where every character is like full-screen zoner than the idea doesn't work. SF6 markets itself as close-range fighter and strongest archetype for close-range fighting is grappling. that is why most of characters have throw loops because they're all different version of grappling. The characters that don't have it throw looping is because they have specific property in their kit where the developer deems that character should not have default grappling mechanic of the game because the character supposedly has unique strengths that outweigh not having grapple. For Chun li, It's her reach. For honda, i think it is his command grab. i think it is the fact that you can replace his normal throw with his command grab and because it is command grab, you can't tech it and it can be enhanced for more damage. either way, i don't think people think Honda is a good character but it might because his balance isn't correct for what developer perceives as strength of this character.
surprised there was no mention of jump cancel options to beat throw loops, but i guess those are kind of character specific and not intended as counters to throw. Love the content Broski!
@@byakuyatogami1859 No. I mean things like Gief jump cancel SPD. cancelling the prejump frames (to be airborne, thus avoiding throw) into a special move. Good question though, thanks.
1:35 I don't get it, all I saw was hype gameplay between two high level players... I'm that rare throw loop defender, I honestly like watching high level throw loops. That said, I'm gonna finish the video and come back, because I'm hoping for a solution that pleases throw loop haters without shunning throw loop enjoyers. I'll edit this after. Edit: So, I enjoy watching high level throw loops, but I'm not gonna sit here and pretend I'm the majority. It's a fair point that they aren't a great selling point. I also can see the argument for simply having a bit more interaction. Backdash should punish throw on a read, I can get down with that, that makes a lot of sense. Honestly, after watching this, I think I just wanted a more nuanced explanation than, "ugh, throw loops, remove from game." I can't really disagree with anything said here, and if it makes the majority of the player base happy then that's fine. I would want them to still happen sometimes, but if they are harder to do that just makes it more hype so win/win. Long story short I think the conclusion is correct, just make them like Chun and call it done.
What do you think of a throw loop like Juri's where she has to commit to a backdash in order to shimmy, which loses to pressing anything and reverals, versus a ''regular'' shimmy that only loses to a move that hits low?
1. What about jumping forward and paying the "corner tax" ? 2. What about block option select jump, which takes advantage of the 1-2 frames of throw invulnerability on wakeup?
I would like the medal of "I saw the tweet that preceded this Broski video" now please.
Same
Me too
Thank you for your service.
Same
ME TOO
"We would have to redesign perfect parry!"
"Your terms are acceptable."
“YOU WOULD? FOR ME?”
Not really a bad thing, more a question of how do you design the game to accommodate both changes.
It’s a case of ‘the change will be good, if we can get it right.’
@@EarthLordCJ thats his answer to all all of the points people made though.
just let the devs figure it out lol. chun has no throw loops "just redesign everyone" take throw loops out "just redesign perfevt parry"
@@nomaschalupas2453Yeah but that’s not really a rebuttal per se, is it? That’s just deflecting the question with the exact same question.
“I can’t fix this, idk how”
“Nah it’s deffo fixable, just let other people fix it, surely they’ll figure it out, trust”
But in all seriousness, I get that it’s possible, just that it seems like there’s no good way to nerf PP without it making the whole game feel worse, or maybe just too different that it loses the old “feel” or “charm” if you get what I mean. PP already is heavily scaled and it’s still so good, more scaling probably won’t fix it, which means frame data changes will be necessary; the main thing I can think of is nerfing its shortened recovery, but then you run the risk of making punishes against safer attacks too inconsistent/unrewarding, which would be both frustrating and a bit too weak sounding? Not to mention how frustrating it would be to have established combo options removed so broadly when half the cast loses their biggest punish or something like that.
And if the answer is “balance every character individually like Chun”, fair, but that’s basically as complicated as reworking corner carry anyway, in that both are EXTREMELY complicated and specific. And in this case, Chun’s counterbalance to a lack of throw loops is other strengths like fireball drive rush that are _supposed_ to be character-specific. So yes, counterbalancing everyone is possible, but massively complicated especially if you don’t want everyone to have the same exact counterbalances against it. And I also don’t think we’d really enjoy risking going backwards in balance for a bit while the devs fumble over how to do this with no good solution for 3 years or so, when that could arguably lead to more turnoff from the game and make the game less fun while we endure worse balancing of the game after playing a better version of it before.
So I dunno, I think my main wish is just for Capcom to at least stop making throw loops even more rewarding than they already are since they seem intent to make them stronger, with jump cancel special being removed as a pro/advanced option even in the Dec patch to buff throw loop and technically remove a skill ceiling and interesting interaction. Stuff like that.
The ways in which I've seen this argument weren't as a "they couldn't _possibly_ change throw loops", but more as a response to people being like "just remove all of them next patch, easy 5Head"
It's not a change the devs can just _snap_ and it's done, it would take time to put together
December 1st Balance patch, from CAPCOM for Street Fighter 6:
- Chun-li;
We found the performance of her corner pressure situation lacking, and have adjusted the advantage of her throw on the opponent in the corner to have enough advantage to repeat the sequence on wake up, in line with the rest of the cast
That wording... Sounds exactly like what ArcSys writes lol
"-Is this just an overly complicated way of saying you gave her a throw loop ?"
"-We found the initial wording of the changelog to underperform in the area of getting players to shut the f* up and get their as*es throw ten times ina row in the corner, so we multiplied the b*lls**t factor of the description by 3.8 in order to get them confused for at least a little while.
Knowing capcom and their attempt to "nerf" bison. This is probably gonna happen
LOL
@@mrblooper1994Literally. An arcsys burner account
We need the people behind Divekick to make a sequel. (spiritual or otherwise)
Throwloop. One button throws, the other button loops.
Unironically this.
I love Divekick and this sounds x1000 funnier. Hold the loop button and your character endlessly shimmys.
“It’s just Rock Paper Scissors! But if you choose Rock against my Paper I put you back in the loop where you choose Rock/Paper and if you guess Paper and I choose Scissors I do a gajillion damage and keep you in the corner and make you play RPS again.”
Your analogy basically boils down to:
“What? I lost the first game of RPS in a best of 5 and now I have to play AGAIN to win the set?”
@@HakumeiTenshiwhat r u on abt man
@@HakumeiTenshi Nope. This is more similar to one single throw of RPS counting like 4 wins out of 5
@@butterfreedom5357then you lose by getting thrown twice….
You didn’t give that an ounce of thought
Its not even rock paper scissors because doing a meaty throw beats them mashing, so its really just rock paper
I think that the laziest and simplest solution is the 3rd Strike route of 6 frames of throw invul, so you can mash a 4-5 framer out of the loop without getting meaty thrown.
If they wanted to give us throw invul on wakeup they would have done it ages ago
it's "lazy" but literally every other fighting game has something like this. Even in ST (it doesn't matter as much in ST cause while there is throw protection on wakeup, there's no throw protection on block, so just do a meaty jab then tick throw lol). Capcom just kind of threw it out starting with SF4 because reasons (?)
@@ayyyoooo29What is ST?
Not a simple solution at all with how parry is right now. People would just be mashing buttons and parry all day. SFV pseudo throw loops is much better
@@milorxngo Having this convo on youtube comments seems kind of silly but here I go: Taking Reversal DPS/Super out of the equation, Right now we have throw beating both mashed normals, and wake-up parry. Meaties beat normals and wake-up throw attempts, but lose to wake-up parry. The threat of getting back-thrown to the corner due to a parried meaty is too high, so the risk-reward is heavily in doing throw loops for how effective they are. If you make it so you can mash a light to beat a meaty throw, it would make doing meaties more enticing, IMO, opening up the game more.
All throw and no strike make Jack a burnt out boy
Nice one
Based Broski, finally someone mentioned how SF3 has throw protection and SFIV has crouch tech, SFV was the only game without strong defense like that and well, it's the game that removed throw loops ffs.
I think the game would be so much better if everyone just had post throw oki like Chun, but not a guaranteed throw loop, specially since she's close enough that she CAN punish a bad wake up parry.
The corner is already a terrible place to be in this game and you can get there REAL quick, so having to go full casino just to stand up and play the game is so stupid imo.
My issue with the SFIV exemple is that crouch tech didn't feel like an intended way to balance out throws in the game, even more so when they never brought that back with the whole "we want to get rid of option selects" in SFV. It led to situation where throws didn't amount much to nothing outside of basic tick throw mix-ups and even then, it's mostly characters who had kara throws who used them the most.
On the topic of throw loops, I don't mind their existence in the game, I feel arguments like "it's not interesting spectator wise" is too subjective to be worth it, I've seen the amount of people finding it boring to be the same as people finding it hype. However, I do think the risk reward is not well designed and I think they should either outright reduce the rewards (maybe throws don't give punish counter when hit) or make it more committal, an exemple of committal would be making throws in the corner give you enough time to dash forward and get a meaty throw or a meaty light which would lead to situations where teching and perfect parry would still work and having drive reversal as the expensive and less rewarding but easier options.
I'm a rusty ass boomer nowadays regarding fighting games, I barely go online outside of friends so my solutions are probably not the best but I don't think throw loops are the harm in themselves, it's the skewed rewards.
everyone besides like gief should be +1 after dashing up from throw like marisa is
makes the situation much more dynamic than am i gonna throw or walk back because now theres a big window to counter hit someone for shimmying
and their throw loses if you do a 4 framer but they can 4 framer themselves to catch you pressing
As someone who works in games, I've seen designers die on hills like this crap where they will pretzel the rest of the systems to work around an unpopular mechanics to make a point 'see it works.'
I've seen this so often I'm convinced that people who work in game design/balance are the dumbest most ego filled motherfuckers in all of history.
fucking yep. saw the same shit making fighting game custom characters
Can we just talk a min about Honda, THE SUMO GUY, not having a throw loop ?!? Poor guy.
Hondas a chad who doesn't choose to participate in throw loops
He needs to be deleted from the game
Honda has no throw loops nor pressure after his command grab, they massacred my boy. He hasn’t been the same since V-Shift
Scrub killer Honda should stay a joke character he doesn’t need a throw loop
1) too honorable 2) throws your ass too far to loop
There were exactly 69 throws landed in this video. I counted.
Nice!
double checked and can confirm
69 throws
33 whiffed/interrupted throws
2 techs
Nice.
Nice
Funny number
The risk of teching and just immediately losing the round is exactly why I have a problem with throw loops.
This isn't a problem exclusive to throw loops though. SFV is when I heard "take the throw" so much because of the same reason, and then I see the clip of someone throwing (I think) Tokido until he died.
@@Boyzbyif you took the throw in 5 you’d get reset to neutral. That’s why you took the throw. In 6 if you take the throw you’re still in a position to get thrown again
the more i play a character without low forward drive rush, the more i hate it as a mechanic.
Been a marisa player since day one and throw loops give me brain damage
yep, sucks for dee jay, best pokes aren't cancellable and lose to DI. but i guess that's why his DR is so good lol
I HATE 2MK drive rush. Absolutely HATE IT. Sooo many people, that's all they do the entire match.
@bigdunks4eva it's so draining when you don't have this option and your option close to it, isn't nearly as good. Having 2mp as my "2mk" is do bad bc it gets stuffed so easily
@@bigdunks4evaDon't always hold back after blocking a string
A lack of mixups definitely adds to the problem. In 5, you'd see a lot of action at the 3/4 screen with two people fighting over who gets the corner. Now it's just left corner>right corner>left corner carry.
what does lack of mixups have to do with 3/4 screen action and corner carry? theres a vague relation but im curious about what you think mixups are 😂
@@cronosdimitri4584probably that you can apply a mixup without needing the corner is my understanding
Sf5 had freaking vtriggers it was a wild game characters with different fighting styles was such a good idea
I lived enough to see people calling V Trigger a good idea…
I have enough internet for today
@Thorgue1910 what dont you like about vtriggers? I ask cuz usually everyone says the same thing cuz of abigail... i started with sf4 and vtriggers was the only thing that made it seem like sf4 to me and it not necessarily on vtriggers i appreciate being able to pick different variants of the same characters like MK does keeps everyone from playing exactly the same like sf6 every match is deja vu corner combo into throw loop every match
What if succesfully backdashing a throw caused a little slowdown effect and netted you a universal +6f situation
So, V-Shift?
I think truthfully, as a Manon main, its very difficult mentally to go against characters with 1, a true reversal, and 2, them knowing I dont have one and they maul me with a confidence that I cant have against them.
She makes your defense better but throw loops make are experience in the corner a lot worse.
I think corner carry is the real enemy, but that throw loops are also silly. The corner is a nightmare in SF6 by design but the 'work' required to put someone there is non-existent. It used to be that playing defensively was giving up space, and eventually cornering yourself, which was a horrible position to be in. Now? I got a cr. mk from three-quarters of the way through the stage and drive rushed into putting you into the corner instead. Feels bad.
It's a whole package, it works both ways, if throw loops weren't a thing, then being in the corner wouldn't be that insufferable, thus corner carry wouldn't be that much of a problem,
If neutral was more stable, then both corner carry and corner game could be okay
@@drakohelli8164 It still would be a big advantage. Drive impact threat, not being able to walk back to change your spacing while the opponent can.
@@drakohelli8164 Being in the corner sucks in games without throw loops too. See any fighting game ever.
@ethangonzalez9265 ofc, losing neutral should put you in a bad position, but corner game shouldn't revolve around throw loop, it doesn't need it.
@@drakohelli8164 I completely agree throw loops are bad game design and the game doesnt need them. Im also saying that its not the corner thats the problem at all and its not really a package deal. Corner would still suck regardless of throw loops.
I've heard someone say juri has the perfect type of throw loop before. She doesn't have enough time to dash for the throw and hit you with a meaty that can do 50% combo she has to commit to the throw or a meaty without the dash.
I agree. It is not fun for spectators either. When a high level fight ends with 5 throws in a row it always feels very wrong.
Speak for yourself, throw loops are a mind game and if a high level player gets thrown multiple times because they are scared to engage then that's hype.
Unless you see Kusanagi playing Ryu and do that against Xiaohai and Angry Bird.
A lot of the actually "exciting" sfl eu sets ended in that kind of manner, and you could always see the chat start whining and complaining when it happened. It goes from people on the edge of their seats, to just whining.
A mind game with Stupids odds,
Which makes it a bad and boring one. The game risk reward pushes both player towards it,
They could be hype if they were scarce, if you actually had to condition your opponent into mindlessly taking throws on repea
@@chadfrancis7335There are pure guesses in mind games too. Losing because you guessed wrong doesn't necessarily mean you were outplayed or outsmarted by your opponent, it could be that you were just unlucky because you had a 1/2 chance to pick the right option, and you picked the wrong one.
If you enjoy watching that, good for you. But I can assure you it's not fun for a majority of people.
Going from anime fighters with a ton of fuzzy defensive options to throw loops made me drop SF6. It's not fun and I am glad you said that.
Yeah I know what you feel, I come from KoF. This throw loops thing is hilarious. On top of that mobility options in this game is suck. You jump you dead 🤭
That's because Capcom is terrible at fixing issues. They can try, but their predisposition at favoring a particular playstyle prevents them from actually fixing what they don't see as a problem.
@@hermontarmand2404that second one is just what Street Fighter is though. Street Fighter but with whacky jump mechanics is exactly what you're playing KOF for man. You played a different game to play a different game, not more of the same
@@BreadBeardFGCYeah I know man. I guess for decades I keep wishing for something that never gona happen.🤷🏻♂️😁
@@hermontarmand2404this breeds the natural follow-up question: why? Why did you even START hoping for SF to become KOF. The POINT of the games in the genre being different is just that. DIFFERENCE. Nuance. Varied experiences. I don't play BlazBlue because I ACTUALLY want to play grounded, slow neutral but with a BB paint job. I play BlazBlue when I want to do, and get DONE IN by, the grimiest mix this side of the sewer pipes.
The solution is to make throws groundbounce so you can do a sickass combo. Less throws will happen per match, and it'll look cooler for spectators! Win/Win!
Comboable grabs, the blazeblue solution
Though that could make throws way to powerful in neutral as well, especially in corner carry to further continue throw loops, while also just making it even harder for the defender. But to be honest, I do wanna see throws groundbounce, so idk, maybe make it so they only can be comboed after if done near the corner?
@@ma3dhr0s44Xrd Axl my beloved!
Throwenlööpen
Oh mein gott
@26:40 that's exactly my thought. You can get rid of throw "loops" and still have throw "loops." The FGC is really stuck on stupid, in that whatever the dev's give them, the FGC develops this group think, in that nothing can ever be any different than what they were given. "no we have to have throw loops because of xyz" ... and this is why we keep getting FG's that are more frustrating to play than ever, cuz we're not incentivizing the dev's to listen to the customer anymore. The customer has been trained to simply shut up and be happy with what you're given, unfortunately and any dissenting opinion is quickly drowned out with pro status quo bs
i think decreasing corner carry across the board would make the game more fun. throw loops would be a rarer reward, other than a constant occurrence. another solution is just giving every character a special that punishes throw attempts, kinda like cammy. that would slow down the game for the better.
My solution to end throw loops is to basically remove shimmy from the equation: make them require a forward dash for setup. The scary part of the throw loop is the shimmy, so make the attacker commit to backdash/neutral jump so you can get a real reward if you guess right on defense; you can wakeup DR against neutral jump to steal the corner, or wakeup buttons to catch backdash. Right now the risk of attempting a shimmy is just too low, especially if the opponent doesn't have a threatening c.MK->DR (either bad character, or bad meter situation).
That's the situation with Juri. She has to dash to do a loop
@@lavrentii-kolotushkinsame with Terry. Much healthier design imo
For this to work, you'd need it to be that forward dash is plus enough to give advantage, but not plus enough for you to walk back. But then you still have backdash shimmy which is punishable by reversal and neutral jump shimmy which gets blown up by anti air. But both still blow up delay tech and even without shimmy you could just delay button.
@@BlueLightningSky Delay button means you can lose your turn (or even get hit) by wakeup buttons which is a fair risk/reward, and if your opponent reads delay button they can wakeup backthrow, which is a HUGE reward. In throw loop situations, shimmy just doesn't have enough risk relative to the payout. The only thing shimmy really loses to is wakeup c.MK->DR, which itself loses horribly to anything that isn't shimmy.
In the beginning I thought they were necessary but I hate them now, there are other solutions to punish perfect parry attempts. Make throws loop on punish counter only and bam, now throw is a read or reaction to wake up parry.
You could make them auto tech instead of throw invulnerability which would mean throw is still the lower risk and lower reward option for parry reads.
It's funny because I played a lot of SF4, but never played SF5.
Not being able to crouch tech in SF6 was one of the first things I noticed when starting out.
I wasn't aware of how silly throw loops were then, but it definitely made me feel uneasy.
Tbf crouch tech was pretty degenerate too, just in the opposite direction
@@charlieharrington9555 yeah, crouch tech in SF4 was mega stupid IMO, because SF4 also allowed your light buttons to be converted into full combos. your fastest, safest button was also your throw break OS which was also your combo-into-knockdown-into-oki starter move. there was basically no reason to ever press any other button from close range.
@@charlieharrington9555 Yes I agree, and it's probably why I noticed it so quickly, because it was one of the main defensive options in the corner.
Though to be fair it was a bit better than throw loops because openings were created by frame trapping instead and the offensive player has the corner, so they are rewarded with a better combo on hit, and the defending player is rewarded with getting out of the corner on hit but gets slightly less damage. So the outcome for both players is pretty balanced when someone guesses right. So the corner became less about throwing and more about frame trapping, and both players were rewarded in some way for guessing right.
I don't think crouch tech is good to have, but it's definitely better in terms of coin flipping than throw looping.
To be fair on SFV it started with both throw loops and meterless reversals and when they removed those it was too costly to get out of throw loops by spending a bar so they had to get throw loops out as well.
I think Capcom just thinks that spending drive to get out it's cheap enough to keep them, whether that's true or not it's a different story
Weren't meterless invincible reversal pretty rare in SF5 before they were removed? From what I know it was only Ken, Ryu, Cammy, and Necalli. So most of the cast still either had to spend bar or just had to deal with throw loops before meterless reversals were removed. It really doesn't seem logical for a universal mechanic to be removed because some characters had to spend a bar to get out of throw loops now.
The risk/reward of throws that you mention is overall a big sticking point for me when it comes to the overall design of a lot of the most recent era of fighting games focusing on strike/throw being the only "real" mix, with high/lows and left/rights being weaker or more niche--it's /very/ difficult for the developers to tune the risk/reward on each option in a character's mix and offense when it's fundamentally strike/throw, because throws are fundamentally designed with extreme risk. They don't want newer players to have the experience of being in an unfamiliar blender and simply never escaping (and so they stick to the most baseline mix), which is understandable, but it's a restriction that takes away a ton of design tools.
SF6 mitigates the risk from the attacker side some, but the risk/reward matrix is still pretty rigid on either side, and I think fighting games are worse for it.
I completely agree with you. But I don't think this is a modern era fighting game problem at all, it's just street fighter. All modern games are as mixup heavy as ever, it's just capcom decided since street fighter 5 that strike throw is the one true fair mixup. They probably didn't like how sf4 turned out and thought it was too much so they dialed it back as time went on.
I fear that if they nerf throw loops and corner carry without adding mix and nerfing parries, the game will get exposed for how gutless offense really is outside of throws and it'll turn into a turtle fest. You don't even have plus buttons without drive. It's a great well designed fighting game, but it's too rigid.
This is probably the fastest turnaround of content segment to video holy moly
You run my favorite Street fighter channel on yt and I'm so happy with how often you create videos. With the fact that this is my first ever fighting game i learned a kot from you and I feel as if you were my older brother who knows it all and is always there to help and entertain
Honestly I think the biggest issue is the risk reward, h9w hard it is to hit someone for attempting throw. I like throws in fighting games as a tool to punish passivity, but doing what throws are supposed to make you do, being active, has such little reward because throws have such short recovery for no reason
Good example if you jump a throw in Strive, you are getting a heavy counter im jump in starter
GGs I was the taking of Broski's opinion as facts
One other con that I think isn't brought up when it comes to throw loops is how they are the great equalizer on defense in a way that strips the defender of skill and expression. If you were to take gameplay of two Gold players with one getting throw looped and compare it to the Booce/Thunder video while removing the player info, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them. The sheer lack of reliable counterplay combined with the extreme skew in risk/reward means that, as you mentioned, taking the throw is always the less risky option. As such, when I see a pro player get thrown 3+ times in a row, I can never say "oh man, why is he letting that happen?" It is simply mathematically correct to just take the throw, which removes agency from the defender that would be present in other games and reduces defending to all bad, risky options. Throw loops inherently make the game more scrubby as a result, and until they are removed SF6 will have a serious problem with defense, with a great deal defensive expression and skill in the corner being reduced to "just don't guess wrong."
Saying it's mathematically correct to take the throw is weird when too often ppl just refuse to pick the option that actually can win the game, which is jumping out of the corner.
If you stay in the corner you lose, if you eat two throws and suddenly can't survive meter dump you lose. Jumping out of the corner in contrast actually can win the game because of how deadly the corner is.
Ppl need to high roll more when they actually have the health to survive meter dump. Corner literally is the win condition, so you're gonna lose some games when you get put there. You can make huge comebacks eating a crosscut DP against someone who only knows throw loop setplay.
If I am honest, I really don't understand the argument that SF6 style throw loops are necessary to reign in throw loops. I think that SF5 style throw oki (you get a minus, meaty button) could do the job just fine now that wiff parry recovery has been nerfed. In both cases you can get a meaty button, which would get perfect parried if they woke up with it. On the flip side if you tried to bait a reversal or parry you can react to the parry and walk up and punish it with a throw.
The issues are two fold, the biggest is parry, r throw loops need to exist at least on punish counter at least or else the risk/reward of wake perfect parry attempts are waaaay too good.
The other is that SFV throws had a different use
Remember SFV had gray health and a stun bar and lots of plus frames in general so generally throws were used to cash out damage or trigger stun rather than for keeping pressure.
There was a comment scrolling by in your chat that basically had my preferred solution. You can make throws leave people at a further distance, but punish counter throw should be buffed (with some extra reward, not necessarily damage) so that throws are still an appropriate threat to perfect parry. I think that fixes the problem very quickly and elegantly. Lots of corner carry makes sense to leave in this game when you consider the relationship it has to burnout.
Could make punish counter throw give you a combo
video made me realize this game doesnt have mash beating throw LOL they have that in strive as an option along with backdash and jumping. didnt know how oppressive streets throw loop really was
Throw loop is being blown way out of proportion. I'm not saying it's good game design but it's actually infinitely better to space trap a cornered opponent in sf6 because jumping out of the corner is extremely strong and a real way to heavily outplay throw loops. And Drive dmg from spaced pokes is still devastating.
@A2ZOMG that could all be true but like broski says it's just not fun to watch or play. this along with other grips I have with the game keep me away from playing it more. if the game isn't fun why bother learning it
@@critcrusader1543 it's fine if you don't like sf6, just I want to clarify that a lot of content creators don't actually give very good faith arguments about throw loop counterplay. It is true throw oki is designed to be relatively low immediate risk in sf6, but people not acknowledging jump out of the corner literally being a lose condition for your opponent is a major flaw in many ppl's complaints about throw loop.
As I like to put it, the corner is so ridiculously deadly that throw looping - something your opponent can counterplay by jumping out of the corner - is actually one of your weaker offensive options overall.
@@A2ZOMGyou can be anti aired out of jump forward. It's really not that great. Broski demands actual punish not just an escape
@@HellecticMojo getting AAed by crosscut DP literally is the point because now you're out of the corner and your opponent is in their lose condition if you successfully tech the DR throw.
Jump out of corner is actually used quite a lot in top level play and it's quite literally game winning BECAUSE corner control is so powerful. That's actually better than a divekick punish a lot of the time unless the divekick ends the round with SA3.
So no the game for the most part doesn't actually *need* better punishes to throw loops when losing corner control actually can equal losing the game. Again this is not saying throw loops are good design. It is simply arguing people need to also acknowledge how powerful jump out of corner is.
That bit about the wakeup os in 3s is incorrect if I'm not mistaken. Inputting a parry locks you out of throw teching for it's duration so if you tried to tap down and crouch tech after you'd just get thrown. The actual anti throw wakeup os to use is guard jumping, guarding during the throw invul to block any meaties and jumping right as it ends. Delayed crouch teching is still very useful tho
I've said this for a while. I'm not a great player but I like to watch pro play and the number of times I see them counting off the throw reps... is just... disappointing.
Things I don't like when watching competitive fgc: ohko, looooong ass combo, throw loops,
Things I like seeing: Unique character mechanics, multiple combo routes being used to react to the current situation, basically variety variety variety. I want to be in awe not just that a pro player executed a difficult combo, but that they picked the right route of several options available. When things get repetitive or simple (throw loops and throw loops) I tune out completely.
Cynical take and maybe close to a conspiracy theory but I'm wondering if Capcom feels like they've generally achieved good balance and are now scared to rock the boat much. It seems like they aren't willing to make big sweeping changes to shake the game up like arcsys does (for better and worse). They've got a formula here for decent balance and I think they know that but man the game just isn't very fun to me at the end of the day even if it's balanced
Then they need to be dosukoi'd in the face because their balance does not feel good at all.
I think there's a lot of dissatisfaction people feel about their own mains currently.
"Why don't I have that" " why does that not work" "what's the point of this move" kind of internal balance issues.
I seriously don't think anyone was actually happy with the last patch at all with their own characters let alone overall meta
@HellecticMojo those three questions are always gonna happen regardless unless you have a homogenonized cast. Then you get dbfz, where characters feel generally the same. It's okay for certain tools in a character's toolkit to particular or even bad. As long as they have a do-able gameplan that is cohesive (to some degree)
@@shanejohnson8403 and homogenized abilities are a good thing. There has never been a good balance defined by lack of ability.
SF6 isn't suffering from comparable tool kit issue of "why does guile get better fireball than me" vs "why can Ryu upgrade their fireball" kind of arguments. The cast has dire disparities of abilities where things straight up don't function.
Zangief OD lariat loses to jump ins. OD Lariat, metered anti air, that's not even far reaching or fully invincible, loses to jump ins. You know who got the anti air buff on a normal that's better than lariat? JP, the zoner.
This is the levels of disparity I'm talking about. Since you mentioned DBFZ, this is Videl lacking deflect or Season 1 Broly being unable to 2H Krillin or Gotenks super dash tier of unfairness and disfunction
I’m so glad you brought up corner carry. I genuinely think the fact that so much of this game is played in the corner makes the issue feel more pronounced. I’m not even saying I’m pro throw loop, or that I think they’re good design. I just think it’s a more noticable issue because a single hit flings you so far
Really is the sort of stuff that has a million possible ways they can address it, from the suggested in the video to others like making the stages longer instead or even make drive reversal better on counter hit/punish counter. Whatever they choose to do, if they do, I'm more curious than anything on how they'll go about it.
Wouldn't perfect parries be still vulnerable to delayed throws in the second argument? Pretend you're doing a meaty, bait out PP, throw the opponent?
I think throwloops could be entertaining to watch if they had escalating animations like manon's grab. It would make it hype to see a character's rare 7th grab.
Everyone would tech on grab 6 to prevent that
love that they took Lily's jump cancel SPD away...
E honda is such balls in this game, it's incredibly funny how many people thought he was so op when the game first game out. Now you have to be some kind of lab god to play him, I'm lost.
Broski and Sajam should have a debate about this as both players are very intelligent and understand fighting games but have very different views on throw loops. Sajam's arguement is basically throw loops are necessary because of how strong parry is. But I'd have to agree with Broski on basically every point he made.
Just as a note, 3S prevents you from throw teching while a parry window is active, the OS I think you're thinking about is SGGK where you block low for a few frames and then jump away. But yeah, the throw protection window is a huge part of why throws aren't quite as oppressive in that game. A character like Dudley can rip a 5f startup HK that goes into his main combo routes while being invincible to throws.
What do you MEAN dudley has a *5 frame heavy*
@LoraLoibu Yep, his primary combo starter that's also his quick whiff-for-meter normal and is surprisingly good at stuffing and whiff punishing due to its hitbox is ALSO only 5f startup. Which means it gets to beat throws on wakeup.
thats just fuzzy block jump. SGGK is an offensive parry karathrow os.
@@LoraLoibuyeah that’s what he just said
@@LoraLoibu Also remember that before SF5 there were proximity normals so you had close range medium and heavy buttons that all had fast startup
I appreciate you using Manon in most of your early examples, to really emphasize what some of the cast has to deal with lol. Also what you said about sf3 and sf4, cause I feel that one gets spun around a ton.
I was thinking though, couldn't he- pre-jump cancel grab with manon as an ultra-hard read? I remember it being a thing back in 5, at least for gief/birdie/abimagail.
@@aadaaadasda9979 she cant because her command grab is a half circle. lily and zangief can
@@XenonAgenT01 both abimagail and birdie were half circle and could do it in 5. what changed in 6?
@@aadaaadasda9979 tbh, I've never seen anyone bring it up that she could do it, but I'd imagine the issue is that she can potentially move a little before hers comes out. Maybe there's some issues with invuln frames there.
@@XenonAgenT01 her command grab being half circle has nothing to do with her not being able to cancel pre jump frames. it can be DP and it would still not be the thing that stops her from being able to do that. And she actually is able to do that. The problem is she has 4 prejump frames instead of 5 like Zangief so it's harder to do. I don't know how meaty that Ryu setup is but I think 4 frames is still enough.
Finnaly broski makes a video on throw loops. I wasnt really asking for this but was expecting it to come out sooner or later
People actually complained about crouch tech in SF4 a little. We had no idea how good we had it.
Thank you for speaking up about loops, feels like everybody has stockholm syndrome and refuses to talk about how shitty they are
Broski, vids like this are exactly why I follow you! This is SO informative and explains WAY better than I ever could why I (also) think throw loops are dumb.
THANK YOU!
Say what you will about throw loops, but mid screen throw loops are an absolute war crime.
People who say that throw loops are a 50/50 guess should play heads-or-tails with me where if it's heads, I give them $1, and if it's tails they give me $20. Cuz they deserve such a game.
I think anyone who makes the argument that "throw loops are required for sf6 to work" has essentially just stated that sf6 is fundamentally designed wrong, in the sense that it relies on an aggressively boring, unfun, and disproportionately stressful gameplay pattern to function.
I think that's essentially what all the numerous rants and essays from all kinds of players are trying to get at but never outright say it.
Bingo. I don't know why players are afraid to say the game has fundamental flaws. Outside of perfect parry, we have a parry that negates high lows and cross ups and we have drive reversals. Most characters have no plus buttons without drive gauge. Most characters either can't do reliable high lows and crossups from most situations or their reward off them is poor, barring exceptions like JP Rashid blanka, and they need meter to do it as well. Many many offensive sequences do not work cause they can be drive impacted. Any sane person would understand why they're insisting on throw loops being there, and why corner carry is so high. The game has no offense outside of throws loops with the current system mechanics. capcom has cornered itself (no pun intended) when they designed the game, they'll have to massively overhaul how everything functions to remove throw loops.@@SpawnPirate
@@SpawnPirateBingo. I don't know why players are afraid to say the game has fundamental flaws. Outside of perfect parry, we have a parry that negates high lows and cross ups and we have drive reversals. Most characters have no plus buttons without drive gauge. Most characters either can't do reliable high lows and crossups from most situations or their reward off them is poor, barring exceptions like JP Rashid blanka, and they need meter to do it as well. Many offensive sequences are risky because of drive impact. Any sane person would understand why they're insisting on throw loops being there, and why corner carry is so high. The game has no offense outside of throws loops with the current system mechanics. capcom has cornered itself (no pun intended) when they designed the game, they'll have to massively overhaul how everything functions to remove throw loops.
@@aaym2224 The game has no offense outside of throwloops? Odd then that I made it to master with a low tier without throw loops at all.
@@ethangonzalez9265 IMAO All we need is a scaling throw loop. Every re-throw done with a time interval of less than 100 frames. Scale -50%, And during the throw loop we have damage 1200, 600, 300, 150, ... .And that will be enough.
Capcom saw this and decided they needed to nerf options for ending throw loops
The fuudo 50% damage joke is so funny lmao
I think they'd either have to remove it entirely or add some kind of damage scaling, making it work as if it were some kind of combo, with one of the purposes being simply comiting to a real risk to bait stuff like DPs or wake up super, or something like that.
And I also think I'd be cool if the damage scaling was one that kind of gets a damage decaying system to it, so that if you ended up taking over 3 throws, you would take damage similar to a jab, or something.
19:22 this needs to be a more commonly discussed topic in the FGC. I'm more of a tekken guy, but I've done the math many times for different Tekken characters and you get a much better understanding of their offense and realize the truly balanced/unbalanced mixups in the game. I think expected value can bring a lot of valuable perspective that the FGC desperately needs.
Oh mein gott zis game is full of throwenloopen. Where does this comes from?
"Honest Chun and Honda" what a world we live in
Chun is pretty honest ngl
Chun is definitely not honest lmao, but none of the characterd in sf6 can really fall under the honest category
I’ve always like how kof handles throws on wake-up
Fuudo is kinda right about buffing Throws.
I had the same idea where throwing a cornered opponent would launch them in the air, which leads to a 50% juggle combo. It deals with the fun AND the skillfloor problem you mentionned but nontheless the lack of "safe" defensive options would still need to be adressed.
One solution that I thought of a that I haven't seen anyone else suggest is that each successive throw deals 50% less damage, 1000, 500, 250 and so on. This way throws are still and important and reliable tool to punish Parry (or just catching people by surprise who are blocking too much) but doing a throw loop becomes less rewarding very quickly.
"Take the throw" is somehow the best move since it's better to take 1000 or even 3000 damage over eating a Standing HP which turns into a 5000+ combo, regardless it was a lose/lose situation. This change wouldn't flip the tables but it would take away a massive amount of advantage the thrower has because they're no longer getting free damage and will become more likely to start throwing out a strike instead with each throw which the person on the backfoot can take advantage of and better predict when that happens to either block or attempt a reversal to get themselves out of the corner.
It's also changes throw loops from being boring for everyone involved and spectators to an intense game of chicken with both players trying to deduce from HP, Drive Gauge, time left, characters being used and individual player habits on what the best next move will be.
Nope. Somebody else mentioned that in a reply and I'm not sure if they just took the idea from you first but that wouldn't work. Even if the throw did 0 damage after the 2nd one people would still do them over and over because it locks down the opponent and eats up round time. It would also make it an even better situation to just eat the throws and not get out because you'd still be at risk of eating a massive death combo.
I'm not sure if you were around for SF4 Omega's release but Gen had a stupid easy target combo infinite that if you got hit by, eventually scaled to doing like 1 damage. If you blocked it he would still just mash until you lost the round through time out because it was impossible to escape since you were locked in blockstun.
@@EpsilonKnight2 I get it, I still think I have something with punishing consecutive throws. Like perhaps after the second throw the thrower is pushed back further than before or even have a couple of extra frames of recovery so while they're still plus they can't throw their opponent instantly again. Whatever change that happens to stop throw loops has to not weaken the initial throw and the power they have since they're so vital vs Parry.
@@BlueEye096 I think Broski's solution works best where a throw can still be used to punish a parry if they go for it but it just can't be used meaty over and over due to range.
I think what argument as well is a drive system itself, like the game punishes your drive gauge in form of punish counters for guessing wrong, the fact what this situation limits your offensive/defensive options makes it hard to commit to an answer
May be it's a hot take
What if they made it so that certain moves cannot be perfect parried so that they are safer to throw out? That way you can nerf throw oki without making perfect parry too strong.
It's not fun doing them, it's not fun having them be done to you. Everyone feels bad.
That was the perfect summarization of the issue, counterarguments included. Thanks a million for this, I'm going to link it during future debates of the topic from now on.
It’s boring… Straight up. That’s it. Just boring…I fall asleep CAPCOM! I FALL ASLEEP DAMMIT
I believe that when they increased the frames of parry recovery, to me anyway, it became lots easier to PC grab ppl that woke up parry. for pros, who generally have tighter shimmies, theyd easily be able to take advantage of someone wake up parrying, even if they dont get the pc grab, they might be able to get a pc button, or at least a pressure string (and keep corner).
This wouldn’t happen if you mained John Pork
I don’t even believe that perfect parry would be too strong without throw loops, if they parry on wake-up to beat meaties they would just lose to throw anyways am I missing something
Hence why people defend throw loops.
If you can't loop, you'd always parry or block because threat of throws don't exist.
You are combining two opposite scenarios, hence the confusion.
@ yea but if you parry on wake-up you’re just gonna get walk up thrown for 2000 damage, you’d have to meaty more on offense which would open you up to more perfect parries but walk up throw still smokes tap parry (especially after the tap parry nerfs)
@@JamNCam yeah, but TL defenders don't want that because perfect parry into back throw shuts down their offense advantage. It gives the defender the control of the initiative on the ground as the attacker is the one who has to read the defender, not the other way around.
People want their meaty
capcom must have a sense of humor
Boy got grabbed in to a perfect round 🤣
the 3rd strike anti-throw option select actually will not work. parry into delayed throw input actually locks you out of being able to throw tech in 3S. If you do that and then see a throw tech, thats not you, the defender, teching the opponent's throw, that's the opponent teching YOUR throw.
but as you mentioned already, it already has throw invul on wakeup so technically it doesnt even need it
also, while I think i would have said I was "pro" or at least "neutral " on throw loops prior, you explained the situation in a way that I think has changed my mind. I hope capcom doesnt completely gut throw oki like in SFV (I LIKE grabs), but changing things so true throw loops arent a thing anymore would probably be a good idea.
also if gief loses his throw loop then that means give him back oki on his command grabs smile :)
I always thought it was weird that ppl say SF6 is more spectator friendly when its just DR > combo, throw loops in corner lol. I much prefer V triggers as a spectator. oro loops, Akira mixup, etc are vastly more entertaining as a spectator imo
Idk man at events and on stream the crowd yells hey the longer the throw loop goes lol.
Seriously, i always expect like dead silence when it happens based on how people talk about them but it’s unironically often the loudest the crowd gets during tournament sets
@@jackhole251 @manemane1ful I think it's mostly because of their sheer absurdity.
I'm a fighting game casual, but also old enough to have watched high-level SF play since SF2:TWW.
I second the fact that SF6's throw loops are silly AF to watch. I was mystified why a game that looks so great seems to devolve into 2 pro guys doing the same thing over and over whenever they reach the corner.
Thanks for explaining why this game has this low-level meta that none of the previous games had. I did not know that SF6 didn't give pros the tools to elevate gameplay out of this shit-tier meta; I just assumed such basic tools should be available in a respectable fighting game. This is a meta suitable for noobs not pros!
So to explain the 'necessity', perfect parry breaks the risk/reward too much, not because of the numbers that could be tweaked, but because of it's function and existence. They preserve the offensive advantage to getting a knockdown. If I want to defend on wake-up but I know my opponent can only ever meaty or wait, then the implication is I can condense my wakeup options to either block or reversal. But if block rewards a punish on parry, it creates a situation where the player that scored the KD is "rewarded" with a 50/50 chance to take damage on their offense plus reversal beating meaty options. The inverse of 'take the throw' risk mitigation would kick in and the optimal play would be reset to neutral every KD. The offense gets even more weird when you realize that parry on wakeup is rewarding to the defender, but leads to a counter throw loop that melts you faster when read anyways. Because there's no risk to blocking on your opponents wakeup and waiting to react to parry recovery, meaty strike would effectively not be an option, it would be sub optimal in every situation, AND the new throw loops would be more punishing and more guess heavy. You would just be shifting the guess to a different section of offense with less options and less margin of error, not eliminating the guess that's currently present on the meaty throw. So I would argue the issue is with how perfect parry is implemented, and would be fine with throw loops not existing but not in a game with perfect parry existing because offense would feel awful.
basically this - throw loops are a stopgap to not give the defending player advantage on knockdown when you do the math
Give a few frames of throw auto-tech on wakeup (except when using parry).
This means you can still throw to beat perfect parry, but it's back to "neutral" if the read is wrong.
@@mawillix2018 That makes the situation worse for the attacker as parry would always be safe. Being able to throw parry on wakeup is a hard requirement otherwise there is no KD pressure.
@@criticalmiss2709 Did you miss the part that says "(except when using parry)"?
@@mawillix2018 Yeah I did, but it's still a really bad solution for a bunch of other reasons. Namely this would hit throw set ups that are meaty from knockdowns that aren't from throw, and it is still the same more punishing throw loop scenario if you're going for "consistently less punishing than trying to jump, backdash, or tech"
I'm kind of indifferent to throw loops. They're not fun but I also think people overreact to them. I would agree removing them would be a good option and yeah if Chun has the template for that already they should just go with it and adjust characters like Juri and Akuma for it.
*I wonder if delayed wake-up that was added in USF4 would make any difference. A good addition but would probably only get rid of the setups not the core problem*
skill issue
(I haven't watched the video yet, I just want to flame Broski and piss off you, the reader)
😡
reported
(I haven't watched the video yet, i just wanted to copy the joke and hopefully scare you, the commenter)
Can manon do junp cancel command grab as a hard call-out option?
agree with everything you're saying here, particularly the "it's not fun" bit. I haven't played SF6 in a few months cause it stopped being fun for me and throw loops are my least favorite mechanic in this game.
and like I know i'm not the best player, I was at mid-diamond level which is still okay for a filthy casual. I repeatedly said "I guess I'm dead" whenever I got cornered. there just isn't a good option to get out, you have to take massive risks while the person doing the throw loop has very safe options.
and like you pointed out in the video, it's so easy to corner carry in this game that spacing feels irrelevant.
I dunno, it's pretty frustrating at my level. I'm not willing to dedicate the hundreds of hours to get good at this game and even if I did i'd still get thrown in the corner so what's the point. I still love street fighter but it's been a spectator sport for me for a long time now.
i do not remember being throw looped in mid diamond enough for it to give me this opinion. only once i hit master are people somewhat using it. kinda odd this made you drop the game
It's fair to stop playing a game if you aren't having fun obviously but man, every time I play I'm diamond I'm pretty much always holding up forward in the corner and it works most of the time because diamond players don't know that they have to do strikes before throw loops to get the opponent to sit still
@@xkoan-yy7lg any diamond player knows about throw loops. I am D4 and KOWN and USE throws loops.
tbc that wasn't the sole reason
Active master player here, that's still my response to getting throw looped anyway lol. "Guess I lost" as soon as the second throw hits. I love the game still but I think it's telling that I picked up JP just because he had a real way to punish meaty throw.
My boy spitting fire 🔥 on this one. Broski is sooo right on this one great video
They dont need to remove throw loops they should add more high/low mixups, more crossups, and unblockables. This would make the offense less boring and defense more engaging.
Just say you want to loop oppressive offense on your opponent without them getting any chance to retaliate 😂
@@yagami999913 no what he meant is that mix ups in sf6 are generally weak due to parry. Overheads are very weak and reachable and left right are very rare.
@@azizkash286 It's just that parry is too strong and needs to be nerfed. Rest is fine.
6:00 imo I think enough players who don't play fighting games would see this and think "ha ha I want to do the funny", and buy the game to do the dumb, funny thing. I think they're boring, but I could see players seeing this, thinking 'that's hilarious, and it looks easy enough that I could do it'
We would need to nerf parries in order to remove throw loops? Sign the me the fuck up.
Thanks for reiterating this because I always feel gross whenever I do throw loops
I don't deny your knowledge, but some of your points are hot takes.
For instance, you mentioned there's not enough counterplay - and then harped on not being able to punish the throw even if it is teched. Why should you be able to punish me off of a wake-up throw read when you lost neutral to be knocked down in the first place? That would just be nonsense and youd see more usage of shimmys because the risk is too high to try and get more damage. The game would be way more defensive and we dont need that.
Throw tech, strike, OD reversals, back dash, supers, drive reversals, plenty of counterplay exists. Youre right that not all characters can deal with it and id argue alongside with you if its so polarizing they should be buffed to compensate and deal with such.
Your other point about supporting throw loop removal meaning parry on wakeup would be even stronger or too strong - the same arguement could be made for throw loops. Parry is on its way for a nerf when it comes to perfect parrying anti-airs and such - its a strong mechanic already.
i think a sweet spot would be to add damage scaling on meaty throws on wakeup. not as rewarding, gives them more oppurtunities to get out of the corner.
watch the video again and actually listen to what he saying
@PrunePlum-dc1wl read the comment and read what im saying
The counterplay exists obviously but as Broski said after 19:30, the issue becomes the risk-reward. If the player on offense goes for a throw loop but gets teched, he still has the corner and all the dangers it comes for the defending player: more damage potential, DI splat, stun if a burnout situation. And that is still the most low-risk, low reward for the defending player. Had he guessed wrong and went for a super or reversal, he could have taken more damage AND still be in this situation. And as was said in the video, losing a bar of super or two bars of drive meter can just put you in a worse position in the long run. Considering how easy being hit mid screen and dragged to the corner in a single interaction, the big take is how incredibly rewarded the offensive player is for what often is a random hit mid screen. Should the offensive player be rewarded for hitting his opponent? Absolutely. To this extent? Probably not.
Strike doesn't beat throw loop.
Backdash doesn't beat throw loop. Just gives you a measly +1 at best.
Invul OD reversal ? Not everyone has it.
Having to use a super to beat a mere throw is bad design.
And getting me into the corner isn't much of an accomplishment in Corner Carry Fighter 6, so yeah i should be able to have a better time defending myself in the corner.
The first throw you get is your reward. Any subsequent throw beyond that should at least lose to wakeup jab. Basically give Chun's throw to everyone as a bare minimum solution.
Sorry, but your wall of text added nothing meaningful to the discussion.
What do you think about making throw recovery longer and giving each character at least 1 version of a special that is throw immune frame 1?
Throw loops are not only boring, but are low Effort. It also doesn’t help that some Fighters have really good corner carry to get you into a throw loop (Ken, Cammy, Akuma, Luke).
Literally just tech the throw
@@Dhampire1976 What happens if they shimmy
@@HeDronHeDronHedron kinda dumb to complain about 50/50s what's next we get rid of oki?
@@Dhampire1976Teching a throw is too risky for the reward. The reward is going back to neutral, but you’re still in the corner. The Risk is losing over half your health.
@@Spacey813 I just think that maybe 6k damage for guessing wrong once is a bit extreme
As a chun-li main, yes, get rid of throw loops 😂. In all seriousness for the people thinking it would break the game and ruin characters we already saw season 1 Chun was top 5, so we already know we don't need this mechanic. Just make everyone able to mash a wakeup 4 framer to beat throw loops, and it will be better like how Chun-Li works right now.
TLDR: Make everyone's throw situation like Terry's, where you still meaty throw, but you can backdash and punish a throw attempt
My problem with making everyone's throw situation like chun's is that I think it nerfs the characters that rely on corner offense as a win con too much. Chun is okay with her throw situation because she is already a somewhat defensive, neutral focused character, so she's not too bothered with having to back off on corner offense more often due to the risks. But giving that situation to characters like Ken or Cammy, or let's say bad characters like Jamie or Kimberly that rely on their corner offense to win rounds is too much.
The specific problem with Chun's throw situation is that because your only option to beat their wakeup button is to meaty strike, there is a defensive pure 50/50 where you either perfect parry their meaty, or mash out of anything that doesnt get parried. Again chun is fine with this because shes a more defensive character but others would not be.
My suggestion instead would be to make everyone's throw situation like Terry's, where you dash up and you're +3, meaning you can throw and beat their button, but they can also backdash on wakeup and punish you, introducing real risk to going for throw. I think with this change you also give the slow backdash characters standard backdashes so they aren't left in the cold but yeah.
Another way to do this is to buff every backdash by a few frames so it recreates the same punish even on perfectly meaty throws, and this also makes backdash less reactable on shimmy.
Edit: I like the second way more actually, makes the throw situations less homogeneous while making it less degenerate
I do also have some ideas about perfect parry, because you still would need to address that with this change. I think that that problem with parry is that there is no punishment for mistiming your frame 1, strike direction agnostic, complete situation reversal option. The only way to deal with perfect parry is to throw it, or wait and then throw it on reaction.
My suggestion would be to make normals (not specials) have 4 more frames of block stun, like a burnt out opponent, on normal parry. This means that there is an actual downside beyond "what if they throw me" to going for perfect parries all the time, if they delay their strike avoiding your parry they get to continue pressure more easily if they're paying attention.
isn't whole reason why chun li can operate as strong character is because her normal's have disgusting reach. She's out spacing the cast. You can't use an example where the character is outspacing entire cast as case study that "Look, here's strong character without throw loops, she's fine". Having bigger reach than most characters normal's means that you don't need throws as openers to break an opponent defence. your simply whiff punishing/spacing out your opponent and than doing a combo.
@@dodang_9147 exactly
@@ividboy7616 outspacing your opponent is very unique strength for a character. you can't replicate it because it tends to be unique property of that character. in other words, there can only be one of that character for archetype function. Unless you make game like Injustice 2 where every character is like full-screen zoner than the idea doesn't work. SF6 markets itself as close-range fighter and strongest archetype for close-range fighting is grappling. that is why most of characters have throw loops because they're all different version of grappling.
The characters that don't have it throw looping is because they have specific property in their kit where the developer deems that character should not have default grappling mechanic of the game because the character supposedly has unique strengths that outweigh not having grapple. For Chun li, It's her reach. For honda, i think it is his command grab. i think it is the fact that you can replace his normal throw with his command grab and because it is command grab, you can't tech it and it can be enhanced for more damage. either way, i don't think people think Honda is a good character but it might because his balance isn't correct for what developer perceives as strength of this character.
surprised there was no mention of jump cancel options to beat throw loops, but i guess those are kind of character specific and not intended as counters to throw. Love the content Broski!
@@byakuyatogami1859 No. I mean things like Gief jump cancel SPD. cancelling the prejump frames (to be airborne, thus avoiding throw) into a special move. Good question though, thanks.
@@dongonzulman6478there’s like maybe 2 people in the world who can consistently do a jump cancel spd.
1:35 I don't get it, all I saw was hype gameplay between two high level players...
I'm that rare throw loop defender, I honestly like watching high level throw loops. That said, I'm gonna finish the video and come back, because I'm hoping for a solution that pleases throw loop haters without shunning throw loop enjoyers. I'll edit this after.
Edit: So, I enjoy watching high level throw loops, but I'm not gonna sit here and pretend I'm the majority. It's a fair point that they aren't a great selling point. I also can see the argument for simply having a bit more interaction. Backdash should punish throw on a read, I can get down with that, that makes a lot of sense. Honestly, after watching this, I think I just wanted a more nuanced explanation than, "ugh, throw loops, remove from game." I can't really disagree with anything said here, and if it makes the majority of the player base happy then that's fine. I would want them to still happen sometimes, but if they are harder to do that just makes it more hype so win/win. Long story short I think the conclusion is correct, just make them like Chun and call it done.
What do you think of a throw loop like Juri's where she has to commit to a backdash in order to shimmy, which loses to pressing anything and reverals, versus a ''regular'' shimmy that only loses to a move that hits low?
I agree. I stop by playing and watching SF6, because corner carry and throw loops. I am casual and hate them.
1. What about jumping forward and paying the "corner tax" ?
2. What about block option select jump, which takes advantage of the 1-2 frames of throw invulnerability on wakeup?