Put A Head On Your Thread
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- Опубликовано: 15 дек 2015
- Put a head on your thread, when your broken bolt is just about flush with the surface, with a little tig welding and torch heat used, the job becomes possible to remove the broken bolt and reuse the original threads in the hole. ;{)------
As a long time keith fenner subscriber, I came to him with a snapped sailboat boom in hand, the night before a race on a Friday night 6pm. I was in desperate straights with no one else to turn to. Keith says, bring it in and I'll see what I can do. Not only did he Getter Done, he did it efficiently all the while entertaining the four anxious sailors milling about his shop asking dumb questions. He could have charged any price and we would have paid, but he was exceptionally fair for busting in on his Memorial Day weekend. We placed second in a crowded field all thanks to Keith! And Vanessa even baked us cookies!
+Peter Owens I think you meant "dire straits". :p
-Smiley
To a person that brings a project like that to you, having it done right, to them, is almost priceless. I know that I'd be extremely grateful and a 50 dollar bill or more wouldn't bother me a bit. It's the knowledge and talent that most folks are more than willing to pay for. Although there are those few that will take advantage of "favors". I know that first hand. Thanks for the video Keith.
I'm an apprentice elevator mechanic and I find that machinist's are the hero's of a lot of projects!!
Back in the day my Dad was a shipwright and some fishermen just didn't have the money to pay him. So he would do the work on a handshake and a when ever. We never went without a sack of clams, or a tub of fresh salmon, big basket of shrimp or a box of crab. This was the what ever - when ever payment. When he passed away, I truly never knew that he had known so many people. The chapel was standing room only and overflowed out the doors. Good will built over the years.
I've used this method many times and it almost never fails if you're patient. Letting the part cool after welding the nut on is vital. Getting in a hurry and trying to remove the bolt while it's hot from welding is a fatal error. Heating the surrounding metal after welding is entirely different. It's the differential in thermal expansion and contraction between the bolt and the part that makes this technique work. Great video, Keith. I learned some fine points that may make the difference between success and failure in the future.
Yes a man is worth his pay! not only his time but knowledge ,skill and consumables. YOU ARE VERY GIFTED!
Keith, I love your videos. I'v watched 'em all. Thank you so much for your generosity in sharing your knowledge.
I must tell a story about hand held angle grinders. If you hold the grinder in your right hand and your work piece in the left hand (as you are doing in the video, only much more dangerous with a thin wheel instead of the cup you are using) the geometry is just right so that if the blade catches in the work it will drive the blade right into your belly. As a paramedic I had to move a patient (who was cutting a clay brick in half) from the top a five high scaffold. He made a hole in his belly and his intestines came out in a pile as he lay on his back. He ended up OK. I don't hold an angle grinder in front of my belly any more. Don
Just discovered your videos. 11 years ago when I started working in a job shop I wish they were around. Thanks for sharing your tips and tricks. Our profession is slowly dying and if just a couple people are inspired by you, then they can discover the pride and satisfaction felt when a precision job is finished right and a customer is happy.
I'm a machinist for a very large meat processing company. I have to deal with this problem on a regular basis. Back in the day, we never used stainless fasteners in aluminum in a wet environment. We always used zinc plated fasteners. The zinc coating reduced the galvanic corrosion. A great example of how to get er done.
When a customer says "you just hit it with a hammer, it only took a minute for you to do why should I pay that much" My boss would say "Ah but I knew EXACTLY where to hit it"
People forget that it take years of work and learning to know where to hit it. I,m surprised at how few people have that back ground knowledge.
Great job! as the sole employee and owner of a muffler shop for 27 years I have removed hundreds of broken studs from manifolds and engines while still under the hood of the car using this method. As others have commented I lay a non galvanized flat washer first and weld then follow with a nut. I tell the car when I start.. "you might as well be easy cause in the end I always win". I've never failed to get one out. Stainless studs the worst. Thank you for the great videos Keith
I tell customers the charge is by what it takes, not by what it might be worth. Jobs like this are hard to predict what is going to be involved. I had a customer bring me a gearbox with all 4 mounting bolts sheared off saying they needed drilled out. I reached to the other side while it was still on their truck and turned them out with my fingers. That was a no charge. I have also had ones that were a total hole reconstruction after massive destruction and time to get the old ones out and those could be hundreds of dollars. If they ask what a job cost beforehand I tell them I can give a rough idea but it is not a guarantee since my crystal ball is poor at predictions. I also tell them if a job gets to the point where I think what is getting invested is more than it is worth I will let them know before I proceed. I never want to burn a customer but I don't want them burning me either. Mine is a golden rule shop, treat others how you would want to be treated.
+bcbloc02 I knew an old guy that would tell customers "I charge for the time it takes to do the job. If you want a price up front, it'll be double".
+bcbloc02 yes i once had a job, a customer dropped a bolt into his engine, had spent half a day trying to fish it, and was resigned to stripping the bottom end down (it was a head off job as it was), i came in with a selection of magnets and grabbers and found the bolt, i charged him $20 which was i think, more than just fair, but a part favour, for some gas , 15min work time and 15 mins driving time.
+jusb1066 easy money and a very happy and relieved customer :)
+bcbloc02 kind of the same for computers. most people assume that if you are an IT guy (like me) that their issue should be resolved within a matter of mins and they want it practically for free. when I give them what I charge per hour with a min two hours, some will balk at it and storm off and others will understand. sometimes I've been able to resolve the job fairly quickly and will just give it back to them at no charge because I want to treat them how I would want to be treated. other times the job could get really intensive and the time and labor add up real fast.
+jusb1066 the bare minimum is half hour of time in my experience. unless you're working from shop; in which case it's whatever you think is appropriate.
A little wisdom at the end. Another great video with an unorthodox approach.
one more tip from someone who has removed alot of broken bolts: If you can, ground right to the threads that are sticking out. If not, you may actually end up welding the threads on the interior of the hole when the ground finds an easy pathway through a certain spot...
Great technique. Thanks for showing! This is simple stuff but still invaluable if you do a lot of repair jobs. Broken bolts and threads are such a common problem and many people don't realize how much work can sometimes go into something that seems to be so simple in nature.
nice job, another technique that i was taught many years ago is to place a thick washer over the broken bolt ,weld the washer to the bolt then place a nut on the washer and weld the nut on the inside and outside. this technique is useful for us less talented welders and can also be use with mig ,stick or braze.
Great job and you really went above and beyond by not pulling those threads! I keep a stash of 309L and 312 tig rod around my shop just because they are truly "problem solvers"! A lot of people cough when they see the price for a pound of those rods, but to me they are priceless when you get into a bind. I have found silicon bronze to be versatile as well over the years.
This trick is is an absolute life saver on bigger stuff that won't fit in a mill like the frame of a large piece of equipment.
That was exciting. The little steps gained throughout the process were thrilling. Thank you. I've had so many broken bolt failures it's good to see someone else win.
Keith is right, as a shop owner your time behind a screwdriver, or wrench is just as valuable as time on a machine. If you were not using the welder or wrench you would be on the machine.
I agree. Same outcome, same price. If you were able to save yourself some trouble, that's a happy birthday or Merry Christmas to the machinist.
Good job on the bolt removal. I am sure your time is worth the same whether you spend it on the mill or the welding machine. Just depends on if you want your stuff fixed or not. Thanks for the video.
I used a mig welder to remove broken studs out of an exhaust flex pipe flange. The weld was breaking. I welded a flat washer on and a bolt on to that which allowed me to put a stronger weld on it and it didn't break. thanks for the videos
Right on about the value of a job. I constantly get asked to do a job that someone describes as "simple." If the job is so simple how come they're not doing it themselves? If you've got an easier way, or more soffisticated equipment or experience why should that be worth any less to a customer? Great job sharing your thoughts with us!
+Brian Simmons I understand what you are saying fully. I have the same that can't do, come to me and tell me it's a 5 minute job. By the time you know what they want it's 10 Mins! Cheers from John.
I have used this method many times on exhaust studs broken off in heads and manifolds. I have successfully removed studs that were broken off more than 1/4" below the surface by adding a few drops of oil into the hole first. The first strike of the arc vaporizes the oil and smuts up the aluminum. Doesn't take long and the oil burns off of the steel and the weld will penetrate. I pulled one out one time where the weld had drooped down and formed threads inside the aluminum but didn't bond because of the carbon build up. Also, I generally don't let the assembly completely cool before trying the first turn, I give the steel component time to wick its heat into the aluminum but while they are both still very hot, try to turn it. I have found that I have the best extraction luck while they are both still smoking hot.
Keith, you need to put some wax on that bolt after you heat the housing. I usually just use paraffin because I can buy slabs of it in the grocery store next to all the caning supplies. Candles work just as well though. Many years working as a mechanic in the rust belt taught me that trick.
Nice to see a job the home shop person could do with just simpler tools. Good luck with your surgery..
Something like that, on a GM 'Iron Duke' (broken head bolt) is what woke up the (long torpid) machining monster for me. Most forums simply said "remove the broken section with an EZ out." They obviously hadn't tried to remove one that had been in there, undisturbed, for nearly 30 years. Only cobalt bits would touch it, and since it had not only broken just below the block surface, it broke unevenly, so the bit wanted to wander. Just being able to make some bushings that would allow me to use the head as a guide would have increased the chances of recovering the original hole.
Watching "So you broke it off..." (while looking for ideas) is what brought the monster to full consciousness, and it woke up hungry.
I have a worse case. 1927 citroën with a head bolt snapped 1/8" (3mm) below the surface and i have no mig welder. Should i try with a stick welder?
it is the best method to remove a broken bolt , much better than easy out
patience is the most precious allied in such a job
+Jacques Poirier Absolutely, well put. Patience is the best tool you can own. I've found that every time I've tried to do a job in a hurry without thinking it through fully usually results in a less than desirable outcome. And, the time spent in advance usually saves a lot of time correcting mistakes; you can't charge for your mistakes or the parts and supplies required to correct them.
+Jacques Poirier wish i had a tig
+erik61801
you can do the same thing with a MIG ou a rod welder if you use an easy to arc electrode as 6013
the idea is to give the stuck thread a heavy thermal shock that causes a thermal expansion and brreaks the corrosion bond
Fantastic work as usual but the editing, superb!!! Really slick mix of stills, dark and light, and angles. Seamless and very enjoyable.
Thanks Keith.
Good to see you putting up videos again.
Great video, I have to deal with stuck rods and pivot screws almost on a daily basis just on a much smaller scale. I always use to tell my bosses "just because I figured out a way to do something faster or more efficient doesn't mean I keep to charge less for the job". I think if you have years or decades of training you should be able to charge for it. Thanks again for another great video!
job well done. never seen tig used on a broken bolt. that was a lot if heat on the aluminum but it worked. something I've used for lubricants is water. it's what made the rust so it softens it also. no two projects work the same it seems.
IT'S been a few weeks since I had time to watch your vids! due to my father passing & the situation surrounding it so, I haven't been myself lately tho, The second I start to watch your work, it takes me away! your tooling & skill set are definitely to be aspired! MAN, I HOPE 1 DAY, I HAVE A SHOP COMPARABLE & ALL THE TOOLS NEEDED & MAYBE THREW TRIAL & ERROR, MAYBE I COULD POSSIBLY REACH A 10TH OF YOUR ABILITIES! IV BEEN WRENCHING FOR OVER 25 YRS, ALL MY FRIENDS CALL ME EVERY TIME THEIR CAR NEEDS WORKED ON! I THINK ITS TIME I GET SERIOUS & INVEST IN MYSELF & MY TOOLING!!! I WANT A LATHE,TUBING BENDER, BETTER WELDER & BETTER AIR COMPRESSOR!!! Watching your vids reminds me of how many tools I still need to buy!!! I LOVE YOUR VIDS! YOUR 1 HELL OF A MACHINIST!!!
I always appreciate the creative names. Thanks for sharing👍
Nicely done. It shows what can be got out with a little patience and lot of skill.
Thanks
Just spent the last 2 months or so watching your videos and nearly caught up. Excellent stuff and so many good ideas and ways of working. I make small live steam locos in the south of the UK and get stuck every now and then but watching how you manage drop in projects and your insistence on accuracy is inspirational. I've even been heard to mutter "Getter Done"
I kept waiting for the aluminum case to puddle from the heat.
This man has a special kind of patience.
24:50 Amen to that.... People don't realize that you pay a premium considering all the time it took you to get your expertise to do a given job.
Amazing Weld footage on this one. Loved it.
Hi Keith, nice welding shots, that cam setup worked perfectly IMHO.
Cheers and seasons greetings
In the past I have put this kind of item (Outboard motor Aluminium with a snapped seized SS stud)..into a big pot of boiling water & kept it in there for 30 minutes to an hour.. It did the trick for me..
you are obviously a talented metalworker. . tanks
Patients is the name of this game. I use to have to take broken exhaust manifold studs out of the head on cat 992 loaders in place. They were generally broken off below the surface and had to be built out first without welding them into the hole. 1/16 308 stainless worked the best to build them out above the mounting face then weld a nut on with 7018. I would use a torch to het up the exhaust journal beside the stud until it glowed, then sit back and wait for it to tell me it was ready. You would hear a clear sharp "tink" then you could start wiggling it back and forth until it came out. The key was not to rush it or you would be reweld in a new nut on. There was barely enough room to get your head and a stinger into position so you could see what you were doing and you were jammed in between the engine and the rear tire. Sometimes it took a few hours, but I always got them out.
Another great video Keith, keep up the good work. Your videos are amazing, informative, and educational. Hope you have a safe holiday season.
Really like your work and your patience when working on something! Thx for the great videos!
Awesome job! Thanks.
When I have welded on a nut like that to remove a broken bolt, I put a couple of toothpicks or similar spacer between the nut and the part surface. Sometimes being able to thread the bolt in a turn or two can help free things up. It also helps when you are trying to work in some penetrating oil.
Good one Keith. I don't have a tig welder handy, so I use a 3/32" stainless rod (312-309) and do exactly the same as you, except using a Miller Thunderbolt welder. Touch the stud then release. Build up the stud then slip a stainless nut over the stud. Usually the heat from welding the nut Is more than enough to release the frozen stud. It must be nice to own a tig welder.
I just stumbled upon this video, and wanted to mention that with a steel bolt in aluminum, you could have just used alum and water to dissolve the steel. Would have taken a day or two, but you said the part was sitting around your shop for quite a while. The alum won't hurt the aluminum at all, but takes the steel right out.
A can of compressed air, upside down will put liquid air on the nut/bolt head and shrink the stud a bit to help the process. In tandem with the heating, this makes the removal much faster.
I've got to try this with my powertig. Thank you for the tips.
Happy New Year, Keith! Thanks for all the vids.
Keith, I love your videos and your work ethic. :)
My friend does tons of work like that on the fishing fleet at the Wa.coast. It does not rust out here, it melts.. Also says the ocean is his best customer. :)
Nice job Keith.
Awesome job and proves that patience by taking ones time actually saves you time.
The video of your work is excellent.
Nice video, Keith.
I've used MIG the same way for removing bolts brokenbelow the surface, a bit scary as you don't want to weld the stub into the casting. MIG can also work!
I normally work off a fixed price quote which I always prepare in good faith. Sometimes I get lucky and I find an easier way to complete a job and sometimes I under estimate the amount of work. Usually I'll stick to the quote as over all it works out about even. The only times I renegotiate are when the job turned out to be ridiculously easy or hard - in those cases it's only fair to bring the customer back in. What I find surprising though is I rarely get much thanks for turning a job in well under the quote but I get it in the neck if I go over. I put it down to people having already mentally spent the money so they don't see a lower price as much of a win.
keith nice work.
I always thought it would be cool to do that while x-raying it! Just to be able to see the corrosion breaking down int actual time. :) Thanks Keith!
From my family to yours a Merry Christmas and a very Happy New Year.
Good job Keith!
Keith I learned this trick several years ago , and it has worked almost every time. The times that I have found that it didn't work is when someone put to long of a stud or bolt in and bottomed it out and rung it off. Is there any tricks you have found that will still work with this method when that has been done. Due to the fact I don't have a mill, and drilling sometimes gets you in worse shape ? Good job as always. You my friend restore the faith that there is still people that go the extra step to do the job wright. And no corners cut!!
Beautiful execution, sir.
hay Keith, awesome job on building up the bolt and welding the nut on, done it a few times myself. however... working with aluminium head and steel bolt not so much heat on the head, but warm it up and spray WD40 or BPblaster into the threads while warm(not hot have mercey on the head)can suck it in like sweat soldering and had great success.as always you make it look easy.thanks
Good Job Keith , Saved another good useable part man .. Thumbs up !!
Merry Christmas! Don't you just love our beautiful warm weather, going to be almost 60 on Christmas. a wormtown fan.
Great video as always Keith...happy holidays!
Nice job Keith and in my opinion a better way to do than drilling out.
But you take pride in all you're work and I really like that.
Good video. You have perfected the filming of welding, couldn't have been better. Please don't assume that everyone watching your video's are professional machinist. I am not and have mostly simple tools. I like when you repair things using tools that a garage mechanic has.
Done the similar thing many times except using the MIG welder (with the alloy steel .035" ER70S6 wire and the CO2 shield gas I fabricate with...). I find that that general fab wire welds nicely onto most steel grades ( including even stainless steel boiler tubing I've used for water heating coils, if fitted with nice tight joints?)... I clean the broken stud or bolt of any (penetrating?) oils using spray carb cleaner and air nozzle. Set my (unplated) grade 8 nut over the bolt. Set the MIG is set kind of hot. Make sure the gas is purged all the way out to the gun. Point the wire straight down into the center of the nut and ZAP till filled. It is very quick, and usually successful, even if welding onto a busted off easy out tip in the bolt. Works well on studs and bolts broken off in cast iron or aluminum manifolds and heads and blocks. I just let it cool slightly until still quite warm, add some penetrating fluid, such as PB Blaster, and use my small 3/8 drive snap on impact wrench gently, forward and backward, to get the fluid down into the threads. Invariably, it backs right out leaving usable threads in the hole. Probably takes all of 10 minutes, if I'm slow and careful.
I like your channel. Have learned some very useful things on here.
Thanks for this video! I enjoyed it.
nice vid. I like the contrast you set with the two different ways. I like your style. ill be checking out your channel for sure. thanks
Nothing beats good advertising like gratuity. Well done.
I like your videos and think you are a real craftsman!Keep up the good videos.
Hey that looks like a 50hp Merc crankcase cover from the 1970s, brings back memories I used to work at a dealer here in the Bahamas and i have re-built tons of those.. had to deal with thousands of wrung off bolts on those also..lol
Nice video Keith. Merry Christmas!
good job Keith, had to do several of those as an HGV mechanic and some in with which is a bit more tricky. merry Christmas to you and all your family and hope your operation goes well.
Merry Christmas Keith!
I use the flat washer method as well prior to adding the nut, this helps increase the contact area for heat to transfer into the parent metal. Also, many guys don't realize the importance of using plain steel fasteners or black oxide. Gold and silver zinc coated fasteners have the potential to contaminate the weld and at the same time put off poisonous gases. It works best if you attempt to remove the fastener about 30 seconds after welding is complete. The use of wax or a mixture of 50/50 acetone and transmission fluid make for a great penetrating lubricant. This entire process start to finish should not take longer than 2 minutes. Don't forget to run a tap in the hole to restore any galled threads and also clean any oil or gunk before blowing it out with air. I always charge a minimum of $15 up to 15 minutes with a max of $45 per single broken fastener unless the cost or size of the part requires substantial setup time or care. Most I ever charged for a single fastener extraction was $200 for a broken and damaged bolt in the snout of a crankshaft while it was still in the engine.
Great. That was suspenseful.
Thanks for the video Keith! I appreciate that you start to broach the topic of billable time. I would like to start doing some more gett-er-out work in my area but not sure how to price so it's worth my time and the customers.
Ben Kjellberg eh3yehgbeywn2u2727
Keith I do it the same way but I weld a washer first and then the nut to the washer.
I found using brake fluid the best penetrating oil for rusty threads . Payment ? Beer!
I always use my welder first before the mill .winner winner chicken dinner.
I think penetrating oil helps a lot once you are able to get half a turn going working it back and forth I'm sure you already know that the only problem is you have to let it cool down a bit. Good job Kieth I miss watching your videos.
edit: I commented before you mentioned thread buster lol :p
i agree on the charging thing you are a machinist and your labor is what you are getting paid for that job could be taking the place of some machining job where you couldnt use that trick your time is therefore worth what the most expensive job you need to do in the time allowed. thought you werent gonna get it for a minute love the vids btw
Done the same to a marine Detroit Diesel 3-53 crankcase pan bolt. While it was still on the engine hoist just a few feet off the ground. Overhead weld on a SAE grade 5 bolt in an aluminum block. Sans nut, I just grabbed the weld stalactite with my vintage Grip Lock pliers and it was like Lancelot pulling Excaliber. Not me first rodeo either. With HF start GTAW, I do it down to #6 machine screws. ER80 D2 rod and make sure you have full diameter fusion.
Great video !
Hello Keith, Gotta say that for a bit the WIYTB was interesting but I think the tread is gone from that tire. What I really liked was the real world of various jobs and setups you used to do. I understand your family situation has been difficult and wish you all the best in resolving it. I look forward to you getting back to your job shop projects and the myriad of different procedures necessary. Personally my favorites were the old school hand operations as I have never warmed up or ponied up for CNC machinery. I have missed your frequent videos. Happy New Year to you and yours. Doug
Very nice video. Thanks. Skills man.....skills.
I know I'm late but just seen your video try welding a washer on first and then weld the nut to the washer you can get more weld on the nut ( inside and outside). I work in a shop that does a lot of farm machinery repair and we remove a lot of broke bolts and fittings. Keep um coming. Thanks.
nice work!
Hey Keith I just wanted to thank you for making all the videos I've seen them all and I have learned so much, now I gathered the courage to make a video on what I have learned here on youtube, I hope you will see it. hello from Denmark
I worked in the motor trade for 30+ years in ever garage I worked in we were always doing freebies fitting bulbs , fuses and adjusting headlights , I did refused to repair a car's chassis with the engine in , the boss wanted to save him a bit of money , the guy was a bloody millionaire , got my way in the end it was his sons car bent the chassis by stuffing it into a roundabout showing off .
Now THAT was kickass awesome Sir.
I was getting excited to see how you were going to do that with MIG (I think you meant to put tig in the video description instead of mig). Slow and steady wins the race and you showed a lot of patience getting that thing broken loose.
If my internet connection is non-existent when I go back to see my folks over Christmas, I hope you and Vanessa have a very Merry Christmas.
An old timer shared the wax method with me. Heat it as hot as practical, then feed wax (crayon, candle...etc... doesn't matter) into the offending thread. Let cool. Repeat 2x. The wax gets pulled in like sweating copper pipe, turns to carbon and lubricates/frees the threads. Works on both like and dissimilar metals. Hasn't failed me yet...
that's awesome very nice job