The fun of a fighting game for me is the neutral moment where both players are facing each other, and each are ready to attack and/or counter the other. The winner of this clash damage the other, then you rinse and repeat. It's not about memorizing combos to one shot your opponent, it's about reaction, strategy, tension. In Skullgirls, you get touched once and you're finished because the other person spent hours in training mode learning an endless combo by heart. You might as well be playing Divekick.
I really REALLY dislike long combos. Admittedly I am not the biggest fighting game guy out there BUT I think the reason why is because of the modern day combo systems. That's why I think I'm drawn towards fighters like Soul Cal or arena fighters or games like Super Smash bros. I think it feels awesome when you can string together like 3 - 6 attacks in those games. And it looks like an actual FIGHT. Meanwhile in Marvel or KI you might as well put your controller down and go get a snack or something while you're stuck in a 100 hit + combo. Just takes all the fun out of it for me (on top of looking ridiculous). Plus it brings the match to a stop way too often as well. I like games where you get hits in when you can with great looking and satisfying short combo strings. Not games where you just go from one 100 hit combo to the next. But that's just my opinion.
i can remember only 4 fighting games that have really LONG combos besides mvc1-2, so idk why people would hate something that rare, anyway almost all people that into fighting games dont play hnk or mvc3, they playing gg or sf
I reckon UMvC3 still did pretty well compared to other "long combo" games is because while the combos can go on forever, they're much easier to perform. There's large amounts of buffer room between each move and input (for most characters) unless you want to get into the seriously optimised stuff. Even then, almost everything's just combo'ed into, rather than using links like in Street Fighter. To be honest I find that stuff even scarier than Marvel combos.
But you gotta wait so long while your opponent finishes his 15 second combo. Not getting to play 15 seconds in a fighting game MID GAME is absolutely unnacceptable.
One thing I'd really like to see in more fighters is DI ( Directional Influence ) Which is found in the SSB series. For those unaware,DI ( or Smash DI ) is controlling the direction a character moves in multiple hit moves or combos. So basically by using DI you can help yourself get out of the combo depending on what way your tapping or tilting the control stick. So in order for you opponent to continue the combo they have you in, they have to predict your DI. True combos still exist, ones that DI won't save you from, but having DI in fighting games means your opponent needs to predict your DI, rather then just remembering a guaranteed combo. Any who, nice topic Max. :)
Alex Henry I'm sure they could figure a work around, Soul Calibur is another game with another similar mechanic called air control. I'm not saying it'd be easy to implement, anything that major would take a good amount of time and testing. With that being said, I'd still like too see it :)
I don't think DI wouldn't work very well in games like SF4. Smash is fundamentally different because it revolves around ring outs, characters juggle differently, and it doesn't have complex input
I think it needs to change, but not for the reasons you suggest. I think that a long or even longish combo is simply boring and frustrating for the player on the receiving end as there is usually nothing or next to nothing that they can do against it.
Def. For shorter combos, I like to learn characters fairly fast so you can play with multiple but its hard to find time nowadays when u spend so much time just learning the combos, gets boring.
What's funny is when I play a fighting game now I start learning a character by learning their moves (mostly goofing off with normals and specials, maybe try to throw out a few combos that I can figure out), but then I spend the rest of the time playing against the AI on an above average difficulty. That way I get a feel for them based on how I can use their attacks as opposed to learning big ass combo strings. In between all of that I might go into training and try to figure out new strings, but that's really it for me.
The huge combos in a lot of games are so brutal. Its frustrating and boring to both play and watch. Stuff like K.I at least brought in combo breakers etc and Injustice attempted a similar action with the clash system to regain health and cancel out but still feels and looks odd. I dont even play street fighter 4 but prefer watching both sf4 and third strike because the quick short combos to take your down opponents instead of doing a 89 hit combo while your opponent jerks off in a corner out of frustration.
Ayanda Nxumalo ya the shorter combos make for an overall more fun gameplay experience, gotta stay on your toes and keep things moving instead of just dialing in a 15 hit combo then setup for it again.
AdamBarker89 I hear ya man. I kinda liked what Blazblue did with it's damage scaling. Granted, it kicks in quickly but that's the game pretty much saying "Yes. You can do a long combo but can you adapt instead of hoping a long combo will finish the opponent?"
Depends on the game, but I think we could stand to see something like Samurai Spirits again where it is all focus on big single hits to punish a mis-step.
I know a lot of people will disagree with me here, but I wish Skullgirls had a decent combo breaking system that didn't rely on your opponent making a mistake. Because crap dude, playing online against good people is just a drag. You get hit once and then you just watch the show for waaaay too long. It ends up being dull and just not fun. If it had a combo breaking system like say Mortal Kombat where you sacrifice a chunk of meter, or even one like KI, that would make the game so much more fun. Though, maybe I'm missing the point on it? In any case, feel free to tell me if and why I'm wrong. :3
I'm kind of torn on the issue. On the one hand, when I've tried to introduce new people to a fighting game, the combo system is often what draws them in: they look badass. New people like feeling powerful, especially when they start off playing solo. It's something you can work on over time without any chance of failure, much like most video games. Sorry max, but I think combos draw in people more than the fighting nowadays. On the other hand, the fighting for the pro scene is where it's fucking at. In some ways, combo's get in the way of actual mind games, mix ups and the fun of the game: read UMVC3... it's a classic example of the 3 hit kill fighter. Now I'm a blazblue fan, so I'm biased towards it, but I think it's gotten it right: I remember showing off to a friend who's never played fighting games before a super long ragna combo starting in 6C (an incredibly unsafe move you'd never use in neutral except to punish) which did 60% of the dummy's health, which did indeed intimidate him. I then showed him 5B, 5C, qcb.A, qcb.D... doing about 8% hp max. The combo is literally the magic series combo you talk about, and I asked him which combo was better; he replied "obviously the first", but I quickly corrected him. The first I have maybe used twice in actual matches without some kind of super complex setup... Ever! The second on the other hand I use 4 time minimum every game unless it's a curb stomp, and this is why blazblue works: there are crazy long UMVC3 combos which could end the match in 2-3 hits, but they are so complexly set up, either from frame traps to counter hit or by using absurd amounts of meter to close a game, that the games tend to last a huge length of time when two opponents of equal skill battle. It's kind of a middle ground between umvc3 and ssfIV, both of which I adore for different reasons, and it's why I teach new fighting gamers how to play USING blazblue against popular opinion. So that's my spin on it: if you're looking for current fighting games which have short mvc2 esque combos, persona 4 arena and GGXRD are good places to look, as the game is decided even more an blazblue on the mixup and mind games you play with short combos, even if their punish combos are game breaking. King of Fighters in another good example, especially with your first two characters who usually have to save meter for the last, and of course SSFIV, which I know Max isn't a fan of despite this video. Just as a disclaimer, I love Max's videos and his take on the FGC, he's a big part of the reason I play fighting games today, but he asked for opinions so here's mine. Thanks for reading ^^
I think having more games with shorter combos would be good. It sort of ties into reluctance for some people to get into fighting games in general. I mean, usually the standard advice when starting out is stuff like learning bread and butter combos, and in some games these just tend to stretch. I'm sitting here going "I just want to play the game, man". Longer combo work feels like there's more to learn upfront before you can get good and then start having some real fun, which slows down newcomers who want to get into things, I think. Having more games with shorter combos might be ideal for that kind of situation.
I think combos can be long as long as there's some sort of way out of them, whether it's Blazblue's burst, Skullgirls's Infinite Protection System, KI's Combo Breaker, or what have you. Having a match essentially end the second you get hit is incredibly discouraging to new players. If combos are completely inescapable, then I think they should be shorter.
I don't like how in MvC3 all you need is 1 opening to get a killer combo. I think combos should be much shorter, 10 hits max, and I do like how in KI you can break out of them.
***** I am a marvel player, a pretty damn good one at that, but Marvel suffers from the lack of some sort of breaker. Every other game (where combos get into the 20+ range easily), usually has some way (at the cost of super, meter/stock, or mind game guessing (combo breakers)), this mechanic was sort of tossed into marvel in the form of team aerial reversals, but to combat this people just decided to not use them unless the combo was truly over and the damage had been done. Marvel's original counter play to this was x-factor (but lets be real since face it if you x-factor and the person can still catch you die anyways). So a different counter was found which was Dark phoenix and to a lesser degree Dante. Phoenix had a fail safe way to activate x-factor level 3 and her alternate mode multiplied her damage by 2 (not sure on this number). Dante did not have a fail safe way to activate x-factor but if you could devil trigger than x-factor your damage was multiplied by .5 (not sure on number but it's close to this. In an effort to fix phoenix instead of just lowering the damage multiple of Dark phoenix they made it so she couldn't survive long enough to let someone beat up all three characters and still get lv 5 meter ( five meters on deck XD!). But they introduced Wesker's glasses, buffed up devil triggers for both Dante and Vergil, and that would explain why they are picked more than the rest of the roster. Marvel's biggest problem is the lack of counter play, which is why it is so hard for many to get behind, because they just feel like a sandbag till the combo is over. While other games either have short combos, or some for of breaker for mind games. TL;DR - People aren't really crying about the combo system, just there isn't a counter play mechanic to getting beat to death. Just a comeback mechanic in x-factor.
Knowing a new Samurai Shodown is coming, made me revisit this vid. What I loved about the first two SS games were that they far less combo-driven than the other fighters at the time. They rewarded a well timed single hard slash, which can take off huge amounts of health. It was more about timing and spacing instead of chaining crazy combos... I really hope the new game goes back to that. It’d really be a nice change-up from the hyper combo style fighters that dominate the market.
I can't stand the combo system in Marvel 3. My idea of fun in a fighting game isn't sitting there when i'm hit just waiting for my opponent to hopefully drop the combo. I love how in mvc1 it's all about the short and powerful combos.
***** I think the biggest difference is ease of use for those examples. MVC1 infinites are a lot harder to do and to set up than a touch of death in MVC3. I mean I can barely play MVC3 and even I could land some touch of death combos on my friends. Intermediate players can land them consistantly in MVC3. Not so common to see back in the 90's-2000's.
Generally, if I have to wait for more than three seconds after getting hit, I consider the combo too long. Some fighting games are more like 1.5 player rather than 2 player. First person to get a hit gets to keep playing while the other guy waits. Long combos and overpowered okizeme are the two things keeping me from enjoying most fighting games as much as I could have.
Call me a fanboy or whatever, but I genuinely think USFIV has kind of a good balance. Combos CAN be long, but they always require meter and really damn good timing Personally MvC3 is kind of the example of going too far Combos that kill are literally everywhere to the point one or two combos and you're dead.
Yoshin Pixels Anytime somebody did a long combo on me in USF4 I was so impressed. Infact I was actually rooting for my opponent to to a long combo on me or me to my opponent just to see it. Basically if your opponent was constantly combo-ing you then they were good lol.
In my side of things, I think that the longer the combo, the less damaging it should be. After a while you get really bored of being stuck in never ending long combos and watch your character flying all over the screen. I understand that the mechanic of KI is based around combos and I do like it. But other fighting games... should stay in their own style and go back to the hard to do 20hits. It's way more fun and playable that way.
I think long combo systems are kind of dumb. It becomes more focused on execution and takes away from the neutral game, spacing, footsies..etc..That's why SFIV and Smash Brothers is so great. The combos are, for the most part, short and sweet but rewarding when you punish someone. It's like the game of Chess changing so that pawns can be upgraded once they take one or two other figures. It's silly.
I think that combo based fighters have their place, but should probably not be the default fighting game form. as it ends up creating two tiers of players: elite super bad asses who eat every player for breakfast and newbies who can pull off a 4-7 hit combo into super. The discrepancy between these two tiers is too great.
I used to like combo fighters until I first started playing Street fighter 4. That game made me appreciate small combo fighters, because you have to work for every bit of damage. Sure, there are combos that can shave off a lot of health, but you have to really practice to do it consistently. In some games, it seems like as soon as you get an opening, they just lose half their health bar. You cant do that in SF; you cant just trap them in a 30-hit combo into super/ultra. So it teaches you to appreciate smaller combos that rack up damage, as opposed to throwing all your eggs into one basket for a single giant attack string.
You'd be pushing new players towards slower characters. New players will probably stick with slower characters. What you should probably add is probably a way around knowing combos by allowing players flexibility in combat. This way fast characters shine alongside slow ones without barriers.
i'm a huge street fighter fan (B-rank T.Hawk on PSN in SSF4:AE; my T.Hawk song remix is featured on the remix disc from the SF 25th anniversary bundle) and whenever i play a new fighting game i always try to find the easiest-to-use characters because my execution isn't good enough for long combos... however, there will always be a place in the market for long-combo-fighting-games... i just hope that combos dont become universally long in the future... long combos are impressive but they take away from the 2-player-ness of the game, turning it into a turn-based battle. I like short combos better.
What's wrong with Blazbue? It's fine, the combos aren't too long at all. Certainly not Marvel length, you just have to learn one or two combos for midscreen and corner for most characters, then your good to go. It's pretty much impossible to do infinites in Blazblue as one has not been found yet, and you won't be seeing incredibly high damage with most characters either until you get meter. Which is halfway through the round. And the Burst Mechanic is still there too. Honestly, the only characters with seriously long combos or high execution is really people like, Litchi, Hazama, Carl and I can't think of anyone else.
Latest Blazblue game: yes i think it is almost perfect by now. BB CP's combo system is ideal, not too long and not too short. But go back to continuum shift for a moment. Sometimes i caught myself up on falling asleep during certain charcater's combos.
I don't want games like Marvel to go away, but I would definitely like to see more fighting games that didn't focus on huge combo damage. After playing tons of UMvC3, Skullgirls, BlazBlue, etc., it is getting kind of boring to have to spend time mastering the execution for game ending combos, and I would love to see more fighters that reward you more for having a good neutral game and mixups/setups, then having time spent in the lab. Another thought is, making the requirements for executing long combos harder as well. (Counter Hit only Combos etc.) My 2 cents.
The game that fits both styles of play with also balance is KOFXIII right now. Without Hyper Gauge, it feels more like SF with short combos while not being broken. Once you get 1 bar of Hyper gauge, you are able to extend your combo for a bit of a longer combo and even mix in some Super meter into it. Now when you get 2 Hyper Bars, you have access to the extremely long combos but they still required skill and muscle memory to do. Activating HD Mode less you put out alot of pressure and even cancel moves you normally cant on block. It's nice to use it to do Guard damage too. There are no damage buffs involved and glad it stayed true to the older KOF games without doing what MVC did with X-Factor. I don't mind an mechanic that allows long combos, however, damage buffs in a mode is something I don't like. KOFXIII hit the spot on balance of short and long combos. Everyone has short and long combos based on your Hyper and Super/Desperation meter. The ability to use your meter for defense also helps halt being pressured. You have to make good reads since you cant FADC from DPs, so the Guard cancels, Rolls, and Blowback attacks add in defense options in the game. Watch enough KOFXIII from Gameacho or Gato Ray channels and you see every character is viable, no matter what Tier they are. Reason it's called an honest fighter among the games out. Mr.Karate may be considered top tier, but he can be dealt with when you use your tools right.
Long combos are cool and add a nice challenge to games for people who wish to learn all of them or complete the challenge mode that many fighters offer thesedays. Unlimited combos that you have no way of escaping and just wait until you die are simply stupid.
I think the issue is less the combo length in my opinion but the overall damage you get when you get a combo in. In SF4, with no meter someone can jump in and there goes maybe 20% of an opponent's lifebar and a knockdown. The most important thing is the opponent gets up and gets another chance to defend themselves. Blazblue has slightly longer combos than SF4 (unless it's the corner), but that's about the same amount of life taken off per combo. (Note: Guilty Gear is actually kinda the same, but with the guts system there, initial combos when a victim's life bar is over half seem to deal a shitload of damage but subsequent ones probably won't deal as much.) While in Marvel 3, theoretically 1 combo = dead character (you usually build the meter required for the super/s at the end during the combo), so I can understand some players feel the opponent has no chance to move after this, whereas it can be thought of as like SF4, where if you combine the three lifebars together, a combo takes off 33% damage and the opponent will have a chance to move after that (even if they're subjected to a mixup afterwards while the next character jumps in, but that's the same thing with SF4's vortexes or even plain wakeup mixups). Note however, that unlike the above examples. Marvel 3 doesn't have rounds, so there's actually less chance for the opponent to defend.
That's a very interesting topic indeed. I like fighting games not because they give me chance to pummel my opponents with long flashy combos, but, rather because I can analyze my opponents, their play style, and try to counter it, knowing full well that they can and will do the same. So it's basically battle of minds. Now, regarding the combos. I think that they should be like "six or seven normals with couple of specials plus super finisher". It will require some training, but not too much, so even new players can learn them pretty fast. It is long enough to drop it sometimes, but, again, not horribly long.
Recent as in Marvehl? Yes. Recent as in KI? No! Mostly because Marvehl had INSANELY long combos, where you could basically sit back and wonder how you could prevented it. In KI the combos are over fairly quickly, if even if they're very long(Or am I just imagining this?)
IZUNA DROP Agreed. Not to mention in KI, you have the ability of using combo breakers. In Marvel, you have to sit there and eat the combo. Just like in Tekken, as well. No ability to break combos. If they gave that feature in marvel, it would near revive the game.
I agree but in KI you get long combos because 1. Either your foe is not guessing, or 2. Your foe keeps guessing wrong. Marvel actually makes you sit back and watch loops.
When it stopped becoming a game of skill and chance, it stopped being a game of enjoyment and real competition, marvel. I used to be a good player....until death combos came into the scene.
I remember the ten strings in Tekken which I took my time to master only to find out that they weren't actually combos as the manual says it is. It's great that it was commonly known and in the command menu but all that practice does not pay off at all if your opponent can hit out of it. I actually felt cheated by the game designers for asking me to put effort into something that had a poor reward, as an animator I would also be annoyed at this, since there would hardly be incentive to perform the work I set up. To answer the question, I think combos should be shorter. Only because a juggle fest does not look fun to watch. Even in Tekken Tag 2 the juggles do not look anywhere as good as those ten strings.
I think the main problem with fighting games with really long combos is that there's hardly any leniency when getting caught in these combos. If you're against a player who can pull off these super long combos, you have to pray that they slip up and end the combo early, or simply put down the controller because the match is pretty much over from there. It turns the game into a test of memory, rather than a test of skill; which could have easily been remedied with a Combo Breaker like what Killer Instinct and Mortal Kombat have
I just think there should be a way to break combos at the cost of something in long combo fighting games. Like a 2 bar cost break in Umc3. Then there would be another strategy element added to the game. Wondering if saving that character would be worth it, and the person doing the combo would also have to keep on their toes for the break instead of going into auto mode.
To answer your question: Yeah, I think so in a lot of cases. I think TheTurtleOfDoom said it best, really. But basically even though you only brought it up briefly I kinda wanted to say this: I love fighting games, and I buy them all the time, because I like the characters and the animations and the storylines even in some cases. But I'm AWFUL at them. No matter how much I look up combos, I can't get good at any one Fighting game. And that sucks, because I love Guilty Gear SO MUCH. But the reason I think I can never play fighting games isn't because I can't remember combos, it's that I find them too difficult to play in general. There's a lot of technicality and manual dexterity and you have to use the joystick to do moves, but the joystick also moves your character. I find myself doing a lot of accidental jumping around when I'm trying to pull off moves. This is why I love games like Smash Bros, which have very simple button inputs and the combos come from creativity; reacting to the DI of your opponent and acting accordingly-- and not muscle memory. And they're very short! About 2-5 hits typically. This way the player recieving the combo has a chance to... y'know. Get back on their feet. Get their bearings. Have a chance to retaliate. It's a fight, not a slaughter. That's just how I feel about fighting games in general anyway.
I think both long combos and short can stay, though I would like to see more games with the shorter combos. It doesn't really feel like much of a "fighting" game if the majority of the time one player is doing absolutely nothing except waiting for a combo to end
Personally I prefer shorter combos. I enjoy more on playing mind games for the majority of the game instead of comboing. Combos are fun and all but I don't believe they should be the main thing in a fighting game. Fighting games have a lot of depth. Super bars to make longer combos is better since it gives you the ability to make long combos as a "reward" for being aggressive in the game.
I definitly understand your point Max. I used to be a professional Injustice player (Hadn't played the game in a few months) and most of the long combos are nessassary to win a game, although some are insane and fun to pull off. However, if the opponent is in their 2nd life bar, the player has to shorten their combos and do mix-ups to avoid their long combos being clashed. Solomon Grundy is a great example: He does have long combos, but his true power comes from his mix-ups and even his short combos do monster damage. recent tournaments have show cased what the new Grundy can now do. If played right, he's a monster and you don't need combos to win a game with him!
Skullgirls. I think they did something very interesting where repeating combo inputs which could result in an infinite combo would trigger an auto combo breaker ability in the Combo-ed opponent. I think that's not a bad direction into circumventing these first strike infinie combo loops.
Exactly. Or, like BlazBlue, where if you use a single move three times in the same combo it does no damage. You get penalized for trying to do infinites. A system like the in Marvel would make everything so much more interesting.
Are fighting game combos too long? I think the real question is are they balanced? KI is the best example of long combos that are balanced. You have a chance to break them (and it increases as the combo goes on) and you spin out after the bar fills (even in the old ones you pop out.) Everybody can also do combos that can lob off near 45%-60% damage a piece. And those combos don't have insane execution either, leading to easy combos, with a glimmer of light for the other player to break them (or you can counter breaker them.) UMvC3 is a good example of long combos that are totally broken (not that it destroys the game or anything.) One hit can lead into a TAC infinite from most of the cast (most take VERY high precision to due though), or death. Some characters have combos that lead into ToD as long as meter is available (Vergil or Zero for example.) That game wouldn't be broken if TACs were gone, as everyone has something "ridiculous". I guess it depends on how you like your fighting game.
***** X-factor is interesting. It makes many characters utterly ridiculous and it gives players "a second chance". I feel the only character that has a totally unfair x-factor would be Vergil (WAY too much damage and speed boosts due to devil trigger stacking with it.) And even then I would reduce the 'stacking' effects of supers that buff speed and damage.
I think even if all characters in a game had long, high damage combos (ie. balanced), I still don't think it's a good aspect to have. It means you have to make fewer good moves to win, because after that initial catch, it's only execution. While execution is important and impressive, it is not the same as outsmarting your opponent. Also, performing a long combo is a solo activity, and fighting games are meant to be played with 2 people.
Street Fighter 3 does it right. Characters with short combo strings were semi-powerful in damage, but had flaws (Q, Alex, Hugo). Characters with long strings were difficult, but they got more damage and had less flaws out of the deal (Dudley, Urien, Yun, Oro). And mid-range combo characters were decent all around with semi-short combos (Ken, Ryu, Chun-Li). I like it the most due to the ease of picking it up, learning target combos, and then easily chaining them into bigger combos. They didn't have to be absurdly long, and the game feels just right when it comes to damage. You don't necessarily NEED skill to deal damage, but it helps. Short combo games like MVC and Soul Calibur feel a little too fast paced, but can be fun. Long Combo games are kinda annoying since it favors those who have mastered execution into 100+ combos. Granted, Killer Instinct breaks the mold by having a way to "stop" the combos, as does Injustice (if only once), but I hate the "touch of death" some people have, and it discourages new players from playing online.
Meh, I'm kinda on the fence on this one. Through personal experience, I view long combos as a necessity and a captivating design aesthetic for not only contributing to the learning curve and rewarding experience of the game they are in, It even builds on the importance other aspects like spacing and mindgames because lets be honest, no matter the length and damage of you're combo, it doesn't mean shit if you can't land or finish it, let alone touch the opponent. The long combos in Marvel 3 were what inspired me to take fighters more seriously, and sparked my overall appreciation for other fighters, as well as the genre and what it has to offer within the gaming community. I always saw combos as the center of learning the different elements of a fighting game. The properties of different characters' attacks, understanding the combat system, analysis of win/lose situations during matches and more stem from optimal paths to finding damage, which is the core aspect of mastering any fighting game. Of course, as I expanded to more fighting games and fighting game players, I found that long combos may be intimidating to others than a motivation. Not everyone likes the intensive, excecution-heavy combos as no one likes to be reminded of a lapse in judgement or missed timing. The fact that they can't pull these combos off themselves also frightens people because it they feel incapable of understanding the learning curve. On a side note, lol what lengthy combos did you find in Injustice Max? I always found that combos in Injustice were short. Most of them didn't even include supers and forget doing big damage. Virtually every combo was up to only a third of the health bar, which each player got two of. The vortex-based mixups are possibly the reason it feels like the combos are long. Then again, I am used to the combos in Marvel 3 being long so everything else is relatively short.
I literally just posted the same point about Injustice. :D I mean honestly, I can get better damage off the right six hitter than my flashy twenty plusser.
I'd rather choose to allow my opponent to get back up after a knockdown. Then we just go at it again. It's a respect thing. No re-launch BS for eternity. Let's fight like gentlemen.
Well, I think of it like this: I can't get out of this combo at all, so I just end up putting the controller down for a bit to see if they mess up. If the game lets me escape or counter, to which my opponent can do the same, we get what we love to see in fictional fighting: a flurry of counters, blocks and blows flying quick and hard. I feel SO great knowing there is a system for perfectly blocking an attack, when I'm playing SSBB and we really start trading attacks and all you hear is the TING sound of a perfect shield, the energy of the fight really picks up.
Games like Umvc3, with super long, mechanically complex , hard combos, make the game almost inaccessible to noobs like me no matter how much time and love I put in to marvel, I get nothing out. Never the less, I still love the crap out of MAHVEL!
If a fighting game is gonna have ridiculously long combos, then at least have a system where you can break out of it or counter it because let's all be honest, nobody wants to sit there not being able to do anything for like 20 seconds because their opponent is doing like an 80-hit combo and having no option, but to sit there and watch. That's why I like the short combo street fighter system and the killer instinct combo break system. Either way, just have a fighting game where there is always a way to defend yourself
Well, there's a reason I call MvC3 "Mash Many Buttons Online". It's reached the point of sheer silliness, where you just poke at each others' defenses until a hit gets through, and then it's Air Juggle Super Move 100% Damage time. I think the new KI has gotten it in the sweet spot. Lots of hits, lots of damage potential, but the smart opponent always has a chance to break the chain and turn things around. It's a lot more cerebral, or at least psychological, than most fighting games I've seen.
TL;DR because this post is actually for a class... The issue with long combos is they remove the other player from the game. Unless a game includes a mechanic for the combo'd player to interact, they just sit there for 10 seconds or some other ridiculous amount of time waiting patiently, or impatiently, for the next available strike. When UMVC 3 characters can just 100% another character's health bar off one tap, the losing player gets put at a significant disadvantage that they cannot prevent because they are stuck in a combo. The point you make at 4:00, I think is an extremely important one, Max. Combos present a significant barrier to entry for new players. Some people simply can't afford a console to practice with or spend hours at an arcade. Their playing these games often comes from visiting a friend's house. However that creates a scenario like one discussed in a Battlefield Heroes forum where the original poster loves playing fighting games with his friends, but because he owns the games, his ability to combo is significantly higher than his friends'. The games lose their fun factor because he is left with a choice: put out too much damage or hold back, neither of which is a terribly fun experience. His case caused him to seek other games that do not emphasize combo oriented engines. The common response of "just get better" (often masked as "reward the greater time investment") does not solve this scenario and only serves to further divide local communities and friendships into haves and have-nots. That's not to say non-combo oriented games require no skill, though. They just don't have as many auto-win button combinations which, if anything, means they probably require more skill. At the end of the day, the real talent in a fighting game should come from your ability to interact with and outsmart your opponent, an vital element in every fighting game. Long combos have no interaction with the opponent outside of initiating the combo. All they show skill-wise is capacity to remember a series of executions, but rote memorization can hardly be called skill in any context, especially when compared to actually interacting with your opponent. All the other player can do is wait for you to drop the combo or their character dies. The combo removes the chess element for too long and at too much reward for the comboing player. There are some who defend the difficulty in executing long combos, that that effort should be rewarded. However, one, that only bites into the argument above about the divisive nature of that style. Two, that makes a big assumption as to what should be rewarded. Why should fast hands repeating motions receive a win over calculating strategy. In a combo style game, the strategy revolves around the question "how do I get in?" once, maybe twice. From there the game is," I'm in, time to win." In other games, that interaction is valued from start to finish. Wit, mind games, and spacing are constant elements in a match, and no player can run away with a game simply because they got in first. That being said, if a game takes long combos and inserts mechanics for the other player to intervene mid-combo, the game can still have that necessary interactive skill involved. I think this is where your including modern Killer Instinct with the other combo games is flawed, Max. Killer Instinct is a really cool engine with its breaker and counter mechanics. Its long combos have an element of when to break, when not to break and counter and so on. The chess match and mind game elements are far more valuable in Killer Instinct compared to other combo oriented games because even though a combo is going on, there is always an element of risk. A player who is too repetitive will have their combos broken. Killer Instinct is probably the most interesting implementation of combos with interactive strategy. Other games with burst mechanics are close but not quite at the same level. The latest Skullgirls version is probably second with the way bursts become available throughout combos. There is one other response to long combos that I think is cool with Divekick. That game is loads of fun, anyone can pick it up and play it, but it still requires intense attentiveness and interaction with the opponent. Instead of making combos interactive, we can remove combos entirely and just play a game of tag! First hit wins! There is something pure, I think, in this approach. It's best described as a "minute to learn, lifetime to master" type game, and it provides opportunity for hours of fun with almost anyone who picks up two buttons to play it. But Divekick still has those fundamentals of a fighting game in its spacing strategy and mind games and quick reactions and setups. The game's increased accessibility does not make it a worse game. It loses no value by being a simpler game. If anything, I think there is value added in its ability to appeal to a lot of people and provide a good time for all, without sacrificing any strategic elements. So, I think overall, I'd agree with you on most of your points about combos, Max. The fighting game genre necessitates interplay between the opponents, and, absent mechanics built into a system that increase interaction during a combo (for example, breakers and bursts), long combos prevent that vital interactive element. Thanks, dood. Keep putting out awesome videos!
My view and experience between the two fighting styles: Long combos games - easier to play because the window to connect hits aren't really strict but longer the combos, the heavier the scaling of damage give to opponent in most modern fighting games; it becomes a memorization game after a point. Short combos games - harder to play because the window to connect hits are way more short and precise thus rewarding the player to performing the combination under pressure with massive damage. Learning how to perform these combos takes way more practice and strategic studying. Don't mind long combos as long as they are scaled and the opponent has chances for countering during the combo with some sacrifice of tension gauge or special meter.
It's funny that you bring this up Max, myself and a group of fighting gamers have been coming up with plans for our own fighting game. Combos always come into mind as to what should go into what and how combos should end. Short combos can be a scary tactic but it doesn't have the hype factor of long combos. So I that what's needed is a good combination of the two. Not saying that we should go from 6 hits to 600, but combos that only last in a specific hit range like 1-50 or 1-100, and to save players from mvc3 death combos, there's this thing called damage scaling or whatever it's called that lessens damage the more amount of hits you get. Things like this can help out in terms of keeping players from getting wrecked off of one long ass combo. The game we're making, it's based on Street fighter 4, so a lot of the game play will go with this in mind.
As a guy who loves watching really good fighting game players but can never match that, I am fine with fighting games that have long combo systems. However, I agree with Max that I want to have new games come out that don't require that. When I say that my favorite game is Super Smash Bros it might appear like oh it's just for casuals, but the reason why I like it so much is that the barrier for entry is so small. Skill still wins out almost all the time as you still have that back and forth gameplay.
From my experience as a designer I've put a lot of thought into this issue. The short answer is simply that there's a place for both kinds, and they just appeal to different groups of people. There are advantages and disadvantages at a player level to each system. The main advantage of the long combo system is that performing and watching long, flashy combos is fun. It feels awesome to pull off really difficult combos and it's also more fun for spectators to watch in the short-term. After many hours logged into a long-combo system game, however, many (but not all) players and spectators will end up being bored by the long combos because they've seen them many times before and now must wait for them to complete. Games like Killer Instinct mitigate this issue with many combo breaking options: the defending player still has things to do while they're getting the crap kicked out of them rather than just hoping the opponents mess up. The disadvantages? Long combo systems place a huge skill barrier for players to reach "competency" at the game. Learning a full MvC3 combo takes an incredible amount of time in training mode, but the difference between a player who can perform such combos and a player that cannot is unsurpassable. There are many elements of skill in fighting games that make them interesting and fun at high levels of play, from spacing and positioning to "Yomi" where you're outplaying your opponent by getting in their head and countering them preemptively. Those moments really shine, but long combo systems block that pinnacle of skill to those that have not invested the training mode hours, as outplaying your opponent can only go so far when their hits lead to ten times as much guaranteed damage. This is not to say that in longer combo systems those other elements of skill are less important: they are what decide matches in high level play. They're just not important until players have equal levels of combo skill, which is extremely difficult for new players to obtain. Further, the "short combo" system oftentimes has combos short enough to learn within the course of normal matches. Players don't have to use a single-player training mode environment to commit simple , four-hit combos to muscle memory, they can just learn by trying and screwing up a few times mid-match. The longer a combo is, however, the more impractical this becomes. A full MvC3 combo simply cannot be learned without an incredible amount of repetition and experimentation on timing that learning much past the opening is impractical mid-match. Long combo systems have really just one key advantage (long combos are really fun) and a slew of disadvantages, but don't let that fool you. That one key advantage is BIG. Just about everyone who enjoys MvC3 at a high level will say they enjoy the combo system, and that's fantastic. That's more than enough to overcome the disadvantages and make them truly enjoy the game. On the same token, just about everyone who doesn't like MvC3 at a high level will say it's because of the ridiculous combo system, and that's also fine. That one advantage wasn't considered worth the disadvantages to them. People are different. When designers make a fighting game, it's not a question of whether "fighting games" in general should have long or short combo system or whether a long or short combo system is inherently better. It's about knowing the advantages and disadvantages of each system and crafting the game that they think will be the most enjoyable to whatever audience they choose to make the game for. It won't appeal to everyone, and that's okay. Both systems are good... they're just different.
I think it should be a mix of some sort to bring back the intense strategy of the game. Not a thousand hit combo but a thousand moves at your command. Always keeps the opponent guessing.
I think skullgirls has an excellent remedy to the long combo problem, where no infinites are possible and if a player is getting hit too much they can eventually burst out. When combined with damage scaling this emphasizes optimal combos rather than long combos.
I didn't actually play much Alpha 2, but it seemed to have a lot of long combos with the Custom Combo system. I think this existed in CVS2 as well, although in general, you saw a lot shorter combos due to all the Groove choices. And I believe KOF 2002 had a very similar system to XIII's HD combos, but again, I didn't experience much of that game myself. Anyway, on topic, I would like to see another game like Street Fighter 4 in the sense that it generally has less focus on combos, and more about the neutral game. (Although that got pretty ruined by how set play heavy it became with certain characters, which I hope Ultra will help alleviate) High execution combos are fun to do and watch to an extent, but what I like the most is seeing how people think and try to outsmart each other. That said, I would also like to see more games with longer combos as well. It's good to have a mixture of both.
Honestly, I'd much rather have crazy big combos than two to four attacks that can probably stun your character, and then another couple of attacks that can result in your death. In Marvel 3, for example, giant combos are fun to watch, because you're aware of how much skill and execution is needed for it to succeed. I'm always happy when I see a 50+ hit combo (depending on how stylish and "non-repetitive" it is), regardless of it being executed by me, or my opponent. All in all, I'm a fan of hype huge combos, but I have nothing against those who prefer the old school short combos in fighting games.
To me,this focus on large damage and long combo's is a signal of devolution in the genre. Players are losing focus in developing every other aspect involved in being 'good' at the genre ( Movement, spacing, neutral game and etc.) and focusing exclusively on their combo play. Think, how many times have you been in an online match against someone who could perform a ridiculously long combo,but when put in a situation where they CAN'T rely on their combo for the win, they absolutely crumble apart? They don't know anything else! We don't need to END long combo chains, we just need to stop making it an industry standard and practical Bullet point for the genre.
I'd say if combos have to be long, simplify the execution language. P4A is dirt simple; specials consist largely of QCF/B's and 22's but it isn't missing much of the nuance of most airdashers, or 2D fighters in general. I think it just gets to the point.
Even though it's been a big while since this video came out, my personal opinion is: there's no problem with long combos, but the problem is about combos that can't be broken. You see, combos are one of the ways of winning fighting games, combined with lot's of other stuff, but when you have a game in which you can actually unbreakable combos, things get actually unfair. Some may "it was lack of skill evading it" but it's certainly unfair because you don't get as much chance to counter, just if by any means the opposite player messes the combo. A great example is UMvC3, that is really, REALLY not balanced at all. You get a team/character that can chain moves constantly and not let the opponent get up, you practically won. And it's been about 4 years it has been launched. A great counter example is MK9, because even if you get combo resets and combo cancels for heavy harassing, you still got the condition that it's going to stop, mainly when doing combos with enemies on the air since the opponent drops faster to the ground each time you launch or juggle with him/her. Concluding, there's no problem with long combos in fighting games, but at least they've got to have some way to make them shorter or to break them.
I think noobs like watching big comboes, but when just beginning to jump into a game, 50 hit comboes are a nightmare to even want to learn. That's like a series of 50 inputs to learn. Most people can only remember 5-9 items in working memory. A little bit ironic, don't you think?
I dont mind long combos too much. What I do mind is not balancing long combos. UMVC3 is the ultimate example. One touch can lead to one long kill combo with nothing you can do. In that case I hate long combos. This is why I like fighting games like street fighter and smash brothers. They have combos, but make it so it doesn't break the game. I agree I want to see shorter combos or a more balanced long combo system.
The combos aren't the problem at all in UMvC3. Any decently put together team (read: not top tier, ANY team that has decent synergy) should be able to put out damage off of one hit. The problem in UMvC3 is that the top-tier characters completely shut down other characters' neutral games, or bypass their strategies completely. Zero's ability to buster cancel, his incredible mix ups, and very strong neutral game are what make him ridiculous, not his damage output. Morrigan is great because soul fists + missiles makes getting in for 90% of the cast an extremely arduous task, and it's really safe because unfly has no recovery. Her actual combo damage, going off of her own combo abilities alone and not combined with a TAC infinite or something (which is another gamebreaker), is pretty low and has been since vanillla MvC3. The real problem with UMvC3's balance is that against the best characters, worse characters often really are helpless. What can She Hulk or Arthur do on incoming against Zero? Absolutely nothing, they have no good options to defend against the multiple incoming difficult-to-see 50/50 mix ups Zero's going to throw at them. I'd personally suggest a guard cancel blowback mechanic, like in KOF, so that at least if you do block a mix up correctly, you have a chance to get the opposing character off you and be able to play the neutral game again. I don't mean X-Factor either, because nowadays popping XFC early like that is just a bad idea.
tl;dr: Strong combos won't feel "unfair" if you at least feel like you had just as much of a chance to hit the other player with one as they had on you. Characters who completely shut down other characters' options do feel unfair (because really, they are) and are the real cause of a lot of persons' grievances with UMvC3. That or they're scrubs who wanted to mash, got hit, and blamed the combo system because they died.
I think both combo systems have their own merits. For games like (U)MvC3, in which combos literally KO a character from full health, I think things like the Mega Crash or Combo Breaker need to be in effect. Admittedly, I might be biased since I grew up on SF II, then Soul Calibur, in which combos are short with respectable but not instant win tier damage. *Grabs popcorn, pulls up a chair, waits for the backdraft*
Yes, they are entirely too long. Let us consider a game like Hotline Miami. Unrelated, yes, because it's a totally different genre, but I think my logic still holds true. If you've played Hotline Miami, you know that you die every few seconds, usually. When you do, with no loading screen, you appear at the start to try again. There is no reason to get frustrated, because you can just try again, because the levels are so short. Now imagine that there was a loading screen, even of just a few seconds. Let's just say five seconds, for the argument. During those five seconds, you're pissed off. You're swearing. You just want to jump back in and see what you can do, maybe get some revenge. You get angrier every single time this happens. To me, this is how I feel about fighting games now. Single touch, 3492834 hit combo that takes 15+ seconds to complete, everyone uses the same 25% of the cast because they have the best combos, so you're stuck watching the same 15 seconds of what is essentially an unskippable cutscene until you die. Unless a game is build around stopping this behavior (kinda sorta Killer Instinct), or this behavior is just hard to do (Street Fighter), this constant downtime just isn't fun, and, to me, is just poor game design masquerading as "well, that's just how the game is, learn your combos, assholes". It's the kind of thing that prevents me from playing fighting games online just due to how aggravating it is. I don't even buy fighting games anymore just because of how much of a clusterfuck they all are of particle effects, 100+ hit combos, and horrible balance problems that aren't rectified because they thought 30+ characters was fine instead of 5-10 useful ones. You can say "well fighting games are for the hardcore audience, you should play something else if you don't want to invest time into them". This is true, but I can't even play a fighting game anymore without finding the weird guys online who know the infinites or the glitches or someone like Max who will pound my ass into the ground with absolutely no mercy. Tl;dr, getting your ass beat for 15 seconds with no ability to control the situation is not fun, has never been fun, and will never be fun for the average player, and this is the rare case in which I think the entire genre has paid far too much attention to a hardcore mentality than a general player mentality.
Good Question Max. I'm reminded of one of the first insights Chemical Lovers makes in their Airdash Academy series: "Often we see a problem of unorganized information in fighting games". This very problem I'm starting to believe infects virtually all of fighting game design, and long combos are only one symptom of it. I can't really say long combos are a problem or not, but there should be more ways to counter them than the comboer's momentary execution level (or maybe even more than a burst system too). I love fighting games; they're the most challenging genre to understand I've encountered (payoff aint bad either), but question regardless, I vote that fighting games ultimately need better design.
I'd love a 2021 follow up to this video. I find it interesting that, according to this comment section, the general consensus was that combos were getting too long; but nowadays with games like granblue, sfv, mk11 and Samsho, you hear that "fighting games are too easy now". So much so that people are already put off of GG Strive before we even know the starting roster because it looks "too easy" compared to Xrd. IMO, I don't think we would have an issue with combo length if we had variety. Or if even within the games, different characters had different combo lengths instead of X game having long combos and Y game having short combos. I won't lie though, I thought Guilty gear would be the last bastion of crazy, complicated fighting games in an Era of accessiblity, so to see it simplified does kinda sting
They should be shorter, but not much. Something like, 20 hits if you have enough meter and such. Now, call me crazy, or idiot, but I think fighting games revolve too much on not letting your opponent react to your attacks. Anyone can learn long-ass combos or making pressure with the same 2 moves over and over again. It's just not fun if you can't punish or react in any way. I honestly think it should be a common feature giving a margin of "rest" at the end of each combo, allowing the beat up opponent to attack back.
From what I've seen they usually balance out the combo length to damage output ratio in games today. Like in many arcsys games you get these big combos off but after the first hit your doing less and less damage so going for shorter but more powerful combos instead of trying to go for a 50 second infinite seems a lot better in my opinion.
Games with ''Long Combos'': ''Long Combo'' being a combo that exceeds 20+ hits on a regularity. Killer Instinct Marvel Vs. Capcom 3 I hardly think this is a highly debatable topic. On the subset of MvC:3, okay. They're long, and with no real system implemented, you're forced to sit and hope the opponent drops the combo. Okay, I get that. We all get that. As for Killer Instinct, they DO have a system in order to punish ''Long Combos'', so it comes down to the ''Do I risk this high damaging, long combo and have a chance of having it interrupted, or do I do this shorter, safer combo for some guaranteed damage?'' So at that point, the discussion is kind of moot. By the way Max, you can't avoid it. Ultimate/Trilogy MK:3 Boss Rage. Get. On. It.
"Games with ''Long Combos'': ''Long Combo'' being a combo that exceeds 20+ hits on a regularity. Killer Instinct Marvel Vs. Capcom 3" Also Skullgirls, BlazBlue, Persona 4 Arena, (arguably) Injustice, King of Fighters... the list is a lot longer than you claim.
When I first started playing fighting games, someone sent me some hate mail calling me "All juggle, no skill." At first, my friends and I laughed at this, thinking he was a noob. But looking back on that day, I agree. I had gotten so caught up with long juggle combos, and neglected key aspects to fighters like reading, punishing, footsies, etc. I'd like more of a focus on those in the future, since that is now what I value most.
I prefer the shorter combos for the most part. Not only is it frustrating watching your character getting beat up for 20 minutes straight while you can't do anything, it takes away from the gameplay. Instead of having to land several hits, you only have to land two or three, or sometimes just one if it's a vortex and they guess wrong once or twice.
+acousticplayer3 That's pretty much why I, like the minority, hated UMvC3. It's pretty much whoever gets the first hit and it's over, but it's flashy to look at. There's no basics being learned, no one learning about the characters, it's just learning that combo. That's why I think Street Fighter 2 Turbo is best when it comes to fighting games. Not only does it force you to learn the basics of the game, it also forces you to learn everything about the characters and strict timing if you want to do the damaging combos.
there is a game called the last blade where you can choose between "power" for hard hitting punchs that cant be comboed or "speed" where you can make long combos but for less damage
I think Darkstalkers has one of the best combo systems. The combos were really short and they can be damaging. But getting damage wasn't easy because of the system. It still took a lot of execution. It was very easy to get into but it was difficult to do combos. But Capcom just seems to get lightning in a bottle almost every time. The Marvel games aren't designed to play the way they do. When they were designing the game, they probably didn't foresee people doing what they do now. The way the games are played today is due to years of tech being developed. That happened with Skullgirls too. Mike Z wanted to make a system with freedom and people just pushed it to the limit and made combos too long and the damage was too high. He had to make major changes to the game to fix it. Stopping long combos means adding restrictions. Devs don't want to add restrictions because that affects creativity. The balance is really difficult to judge until you see what people are doing.
I recently began playing fighting games again. It's been about 10 years or more and I find it that the longer the combos the harder I have to work on practice mode to eventually enjoy playing with friends...I like learning some quick bread and butter stuff and jump online or jump online blind and figure things out. So in short having shorter combos in newer games will help the casual gamer jump in and not feel threatend. Games like K I are still awesome but it was built around that whole combo system.
I've always seen fighting games more kin to a game of chess, so i do believe that large combos must be stripped away. When im fighting an opponent im trying to get in his head trying to figure out his moves 3 steps in advance and in vice versa so we need opportunities to mess up. If i mess up once and he takes me out with one combo i have learned nothing other than block a lot and pray to jeebus. Honestly the way i see it is i hope eventually they make it so that once you used a special move you cant use it for a few seconds so that you can stop spammers, make you think before throwing a special move, and prevent these super long combos. But thats just my onion
I'm surprised that Max didn't mention Skullgirls - combos in that game can get very long and absurdly complicated, especially when factoring in assists and resets. The difference between SG and, say, McC2, though, is that the game is actually designed around it.
I think there should be a combo type character. like I character who has low damage per hit but can pull off a 13 hit combo with precise spacing and timing, where as the other types of characters average about a 5 hit combo. Thatd be super interesting.
Almost every time developers put in a character who has an option that surpasses those of other characters, even though it'll be made purposefully difficult, it almost always ends up making that character overpowered.
Try Blaze Blue and you'll get just that! :-) Hakumen has short combo's but is super powerful, whereas Ragna can pull off some crazy long combo's but is much weaker. There's a few characters like Hakumen in BB too.
I think there's room for a short combo high damage game BUT it has to be in the right package. Fightings are a hard genre to get into AND there's no real arcade scene now where people can ask for help in a personal way. The barrier to entry needs to be lowered but at the same time, not compromise what makes fighting games competitive.
***** I think that GG has the ability to have long combos, but there is quite an execution barrier they make you overcome in order to do it. In that sense, I think it actually makes it more impressive overall to see a longish combo in that game since you know they probably had to work it out.
***** GG series really has the best of both worlds depending one the character you play, some have short powerful whereas some have long combos/infinities, although they are much harder to pull off in a competitive enviroment.
honestly it depends on the character, such as blazblue in Terumi's case where getting high combo with him is easy. I honestly thing high combos are all dependent on the character and if that specific character is an advanced character or a beginner character
Here's the thing I think should be discussed about rather than just the simple topic of "Are fg combos too long?", a deeper question would be what's more satisfying, combo execution or the proceeding mix-up after a combo has ended. The reason I loved 3S so much was because combos were short, still could be dropped due to execution, but more times than not, it was more about the mix-up afterwards or setting up the perfect range for your character. That's why I much prefer to see vortex then to see 1 touch kill combos, because at least the opponent has the opportunity to play and I think a constantly flow of back and forth gameplay is more fun then 1P combo practice.
I'm not a fan of long combos. I consider them an arbitrary "skill" barrier that really just acts as a barrier toward time investment, rather than skills like spacing, mind games, predicting, and so on, the real elements of skill in the genre. Anyone could learn these combos if they sat around practicing for hours on end, days or weeks at a time depending on how new you are to the genre itself, but not everyone has that kind of time to dedicate to a single game. Besides, it's especially a barrier toward new players. A new player's gonna get their ass kicked by someone who knows what they're doing either way, but in a game with short combos they're likely gonna say "I could win if I just reacted a little faster, blocked that one attack, etc." at least more so than if they were beaten down by a player who destroyed them with a practically never ending combo. It's not only frustrating, it's demoralizing; someone who's struggling with the quarter circle motion could never hope to pull that kind of stuff off. It illustrates clearly just how far down on the totem pole they are, and makes the process of competing feel all the more daunting and insurmountable. The next time they want to pick up a fighter, that's the feeling they're going to remember. I think Fighting games could grow, rather than stay some self serving niche if their combo systems were just more accessible.
In Mortal Kombat, special moves are a supplement to the actual melee. Hit-Hit-Special is not as complex as delivering combos in MK. However, Injustice is a good middle ground between SF type players and MK type players.
I would really like more "combos of combos" type games like you mentioned instead of a focus on long, drawn out single combos. It's one of the reasons I liked SF4 at all was because I could get in and feel like I could put up a fight without memorizing stupid long combos.
1 v 1 needs to have balanced combos. Team based games need long combos. If people were playing SF4 and you could ToD that would be a severe issue but in team based games that isn't. You kill the point character and the next one comes in. People dislike combos in games like UMVC3 for two primary reasons: they don't like being punished for bad play and they cannot ToD themselves leading to a perceived injustice.
***** Yes, and those characters would surely get their combos nerfed if they were common place. Chun-Li would be unstoppable in AE if her links were easy.
I like to see both extremes. Watching Hulk *SMASH* everything can generate some hype, and watching someone do a fancy Dante, or even someone in the cast no one really uses, like Chris, combos is really satisfying. Unless you are the one who it's being done on...
Long combos are a pain that should be addressed and God they're annoying when combo breakers are absent. KI, TvC, MK9, BB and P4A have combo breakers. Being hard or easy to do doesn't matter, it's being hard to endure and/or get out that is the major problem. Add the Mega Crash to UMvC3... and players would probably think twice before showing off with one-touch kill combos. KI has breakers and counters. Guess what? The game doesn't get less exciting because of it. In fact, it gets unpredictable that for ONCE, you don't know who will win just by looking of the character select screen.
I don't mind long combos in games such as Killer Instinct 2013 and Skullgirls, because they give you ways to break out of the combos you get stuck in. So, yeah, if there's a system like the combo/counter breakers or the Infinity Breaker, I'm cool with long combos.
Long combos are perhaps the most boring thing ever. They're only cool *once*, then they're just like listening to a joke that got old. They're repetitive and boring. Because most character have suggested, B&B combos and any other combo just isn't as viable for some reason or another. This is 99% of the reason why I stopped playing MvC3. If I saw one more Doom B&B, one more Wesker B&B or one more Vergil B&B, whatever, I would have probably killed myself. It's not "Swag", it's not cool, it's garbage. Boring, repetitive garbage.
I more or less agree, my big problem is being unable to do anything once you get combo'ed and the fact of how much dmg is related into the Marvel 3 game :/ the 1-2 hit combo=dead routine is so counter intuitive to a fun match-up. It' more or less a race to who can get touched first.
Honestly we need a game that redoes 3rd strike because I think that was the pinnacle of fighting games. The game was kind of hard, had mechanics that rewards the players skill like the parry, Short but damaging combos(except urien), and actually had one of the best mind games on the the market.
Well games with shorter combo's, like SF4 and 3rd Strike, are definetely more fun to watch. And Marvel 3 and Killer Instinct not as much in my opinion. And I like Injustice's combo system.
For me, longer combos usually serve to guarantee that my skill ceiling is a lot lower than it otherwise would be in any given game because my dexterity just isn't there when it comes to long or difficult combos. I mean I enjoy doing combos to a degree, but at some point it just becomes an obstacle to me enjoying the game. The more time I have to spend in training mode trying to max out my damage output rather than focusing on the part of fighting games that draws me to them, the less I like that game.
Fighting games as a whole need to get a lot simpler. As much as it sucks, us gamers are getting older. We don't don't have the time to put in the work to learn crazy combos and highly technical mechanics anymore. It sucks when you can barely enjoy a new fighting game these days just because the skill barrier is so high. Gamers can't play a large variety of fighters these days due to how much is required to be known to not get slaughtered. This is counter-productive the genre as a whole. A player can pick up any game of any other genre and have down the mechanics within the first hour of play. Fighting games are the only genre that demands hours in practice mode just to play competently. For the sake of the future of the genre, this can't last. If this genre fails to attract new players again, we could see another fighting game recession like before Street Fighter 4 came out. The guys showing up to EVO can't sustain fighting games forever, and it's a slow death if developers only make fighting games with them in mind. A new generation must taste salt!
***** Younger kids haven't been the primary audience of most fighting games in a long time. Why do you think SFIV sold itself as being "A new SFII!" I doubt the previous generation cares that SFIV is like SFII.
I agree but cancels should stay in for those who want to get on high level. knowing how to transition from an HP to a DM via eating frames should be something that should be possible, no matter how simple a game gets.
I think that they should have ridiculously steep difficulty curves despite being longer. This way the first few hits of a combo or short combos are relatively easy to execute and deal good damage, but the input window decreases over time until continuing the combo past a certain point comes down to non-bufferable one frame links. I also think that the person being hit should be able to do something while in disadvantage to keep the person doing the combo guessing. I actually quite like Smash's "DI" or directional input system which allows the person being hit to slightly change the direction they move in. It changes what move combos often flow into and requires being able to read the opponent's DI to get long, punishing strings.
The fun of a fighting game for me is the neutral moment where both players are facing each other, and each are ready to attack and/or counter the other. The winner of this clash damage the other, then you rinse and repeat. It's not about memorizing combos to one shot your opponent, it's about reaction, strategy, tension. In Skullgirls, you get touched once and you're finished because the other person spent hours in training mode learning an endless combo by heart. You might as well be playing Divekick.
I agree
I really REALLY dislike long combos. Admittedly I am not the biggest fighting game guy out there BUT I think the reason why is because of the modern day combo systems. That's why I think I'm drawn towards fighters like Soul Cal or arena fighters or games like Super Smash bros. I think it feels awesome when you can string together like 3 - 6 attacks in those games. And it looks like an actual FIGHT. Meanwhile in Marvel or KI you might as well put your controller down and go get a snack or something while you're stuck in a 100 hit + combo. Just takes all the fun out of it for me (on top of looking ridiculous). Plus it brings the match to a stop way too often as well. I like games where you get hits in when you can with great looking and satisfying short combo strings. Not games where you just go from one 100 hit combo to the next. But that's just my opinion.
i can remember only 4 fighting games that have really LONG combos besides mvc1-2,
so idk why people would hate something that rare,
anyway almost all people that into fighting games dont play hnk or mvc3, they playing gg or sf
@@TakehisaYuji There's no fighting games franchise other than Samsho and Street Fighter that offers shorter combos
I reckon UMvC3 still did pretty well compared to other "long combo" games is because while the combos can go on forever, they're much easier to perform. There's large amounts of buffer room between each move and input (for most characters) unless you want to get into the seriously optimised stuff. Even then, almost everything's just combo'ed into, rather than using links like in Street Fighter. To be honest I find that stuff even scarier than Marvel combos.
But you gotta wait so long while your opponent finishes his 15 second combo. Not getting to play 15 seconds in a fighting game MID GAME is absolutely unnacceptable.
One thing I'd really like to see in more fighters is DI ( Directional Influence ) Which is found in the SSB series.
For those unaware,DI ( or Smash DI ) is controlling the direction a character moves in multiple hit moves or combos. So basically by using DI you can help yourself get out of the combo depending on what way your tapping or tilting the control stick.
So in order for you opponent to continue the combo they have you in, they have to predict your DI.
True combos still exist, ones that DI won't save you from, but having DI in fighting games means your opponent needs to predict your DI, rather then just remembering a guaranteed combo.
Any who, nice topic Max. :)
Alex Henry I'm sure they could figure a work around, Soul Calibur is another game with another similar mechanic called air control.
I'm not saying it'd be easy to implement, anything that major would take a good amount of time and testing.
With that being said, I'd still like too see it :)
I'm quite aware, that's why I mentioned SSB which is a 2D battlefield (more or less).
But, yeah I wasn't talking specifically Marvel.
I don't think DI wouldn't work very well in games like SF4. Smash is fundamentally different because it revolves around ring outs, characters juggle differently, and it doesn't have complex input
Hell Yes, especially in UMVC3. That game made want to take a break from fighting games and I loved fighting games since 1993
I think it needs to change, but not for the reasons you suggest. I think that a long or even longish combo is simply boring and frustrating for the player on the receiving end as there is usually nothing or next to nothing that they can do against it.
Def. For shorter combos, I like to learn characters fairly fast so you can play with multiple but its hard to find time nowadays when u spend so much time just learning the combos, gets boring.
What's funny is when I play a fighting game now I start learning a character by learning their moves (mostly goofing off with normals and specials, maybe try to throw out a few combos that I can figure out), but then I spend the rest of the time playing against the AI on an above average difficulty. That way I get a feel for them based on how I can use their attacks as opposed to learning big ass combo strings. In between all of that I might go into training and try to figure out new strings, but that's really it for me.
The huge combos in a lot of games are so brutal. Its frustrating and boring to both play and watch. Stuff like K.I at least brought in combo breakers etc and Injustice attempted a similar action with the clash system to regain health and cancel out but still feels and looks odd. I dont even play street fighter 4 but prefer watching both sf4 and third strike because the quick short combos to take your down opponents instead of doing a 89 hit combo while your opponent jerks off in a corner out of frustration.
AdamBarker89 Besides shorter combos make it easier to adapt rather then waiting for a set up for a long one.
Ayanda Nxumalo
ya the shorter combos make for an overall more fun gameplay experience, gotta stay on your toes and keep things moving instead of just dialing in a 15 hit combo then setup for it again.
AdamBarker89 I hear ya man. I kinda liked what Blazblue did with it's damage scaling. Granted, it kicks in quickly but that's the game pretty much saying "Yes. You can do a long combo but can you adapt instead of hoping a long combo will finish the opponent?"
Depends on the game, but I think we could stand to see something like Samurai Spirits again where it is all focus on big single hits to punish a mis-step.
You saw the future 5 years ago, LUL
@@rodrigo_unk Further proof that 23% of youtube is filled with time travelers.
I know a lot of people will disagree with me here, but I wish Skullgirls had a decent combo breaking system that didn't rely on your opponent making a mistake.
Because crap dude, playing online against good people is just a drag. You get hit once and then you just watch the show for waaaay too long. It ends up being dull and just not fun. If it had a combo breaking system like say Mortal Kombat where you sacrifice a chunk of meter, or even one like KI, that would make the game so much more fun.
Though, maybe I'm missing the point on it? In any case, feel free to tell me if and why I'm wrong. :3
I'm kind of torn on the issue. On the one hand, when I've tried to introduce new people to a fighting game, the combo system is often what draws them in: they look badass. New people like feeling powerful, especially when they start off playing solo. It's something you can work on over time without any chance of failure, much like most video games. Sorry max, but I think combos draw in people more than the fighting nowadays. On the other hand, the fighting for the pro scene is where it's fucking at. In some ways, combo's get in the way of actual mind games, mix ups and the fun of the game: read UMVC3... it's a classic example of the 3 hit kill fighter. Now I'm a blazblue fan, so I'm biased towards it, but I think it's gotten it right: I remember showing off to a friend who's never played fighting games before a super long ragna combo starting in 6C (an incredibly unsafe move you'd never use in neutral except to punish) which did 60% of the dummy's health, which did indeed intimidate him. I then showed him 5B, 5C, qcb.A, qcb.D... doing about 8% hp max.
The combo is literally the magic series combo you talk about, and I asked him which combo was better; he replied "obviously the first", but I quickly corrected him. The first I have maybe used twice in actual matches without some kind of super complex setup... Ever! The second on the other hand I use 4 time minimum every game unless it's a curb stomp, and this is why blazblue works: there are crazy long UMVC3 combos which could end the match in 2-3 hits, but they are so complexly set up, either from frame traps to counter hit or by using absurd amounts of meter to close a game, that the games tend to last a huge length of time when two opponents of equal skill battle. It's kind of a middle ground between umvc3 and ssfIV, both of which I adore for different reasons, and it's why I teach new fighting gamers how to play USING blazblue against popular opinion. So that's my spin on it: if you're looking for current fighting games which have short mvc2 esque combos, persona 4 arena and GGXRD are good places to look, as the game is decided even more an blazblue on the mixup and mind games you play with short combos, even if their punish combos are game breaking. King of Fighters in another good example, especially with your first two characters who usually have to save meter for the last, and of course SSFIV, which I know Max isn't a fan of despite this video. Just as a disclaimer, I love Max's videos and his take on the FGC, he's a big part of the reason I play fighting games today, but he asked for opinions so here's mine. Thanks for reading ^^
I think having more games with shorter combos would be good. It sort of ties into reluctance for some people to get into fighting games in general. I mean, usually the standard advice when starting out is stuff like learning bread and butter combos, and in some games these just tend to stretch. I'm sitting here going "I just want to play the game, man". Longer combo work feels like there's more to learn upfront before you can get good and then start having some real fun, which slows down newcomers who want to get into things, I think. Having more games with shorter combos might be ideal for that kind of situation.
I think combos can be long as long as there's some sort of way out of them, whether it's Blazblue's burst, Skullgirls's Infinite Protection System, KI's Combo Breaker, or what have you. Having a match essentially end the second you get hit is incredibly discouraging to new players. If combos are completely inescapable, then I think they should be shorter.
I don't like how in MvC3 all you need is 1 opening to get a killer combo. I think combos should be much shorter, 10 hits max, and I do like how in KI you can break out of them.
***** I am a marvel player, a pretty damn good one at that, but Marvel suffers from the lack of some sort of breaker. Every other game (where combos get into the 20+ range easily), usually has some way (at the cost of super, meter/stock, or mind game guessing (combo breakers)), this mechanic was sort of tossed into marvel in the form of team aerial reversals, but to combat this people just decided to not use them unless the combo was truly over and the damage had been done.
Marvel's original counter play to this was x-factor (but lets be real since face it if you x-factor and the person can still catch you die anyways). So a different counter was found which was Dark phoenix and to a lesser degree Dante. Phoenix had a fail safe way to activate x-factor level 3 and her alternate mode multiplied her damage by 2 (not sure on this number). Dante did not have a fail safe way to activate x-factor but if you could devil trigger than x-factor your damage was multiplied by .5 (not sure on number but it's close to this. In an effort to fix phoenix instead of just lowering the damage multiple of Dark phoenix they made it so she couldn't survive long enough to let someone beat up all three characters and still get lv 5 meter ( five meters on deck XD!). But they introduced Wesker's glasses, buffed up devil triggers for both Dante and Vergil, and that would explain why they are picked more than the rest of the roster.
Marvel's biggest problem is the lack of counter play, which is why it is so hard for many to get behind, because they just feel like a sandbag till the combo is over. While other games either have short combos, or some for of breaker for mind games.
TL;DR - People aren't really crying about the combo system, just there isn't a counter play mechanic to getting beat to death. Just a comeback mechanic in x-factor.
To me team games and anime games shouldn’t be like 30-100 hits but like 20 hits the most optimized combo is okay
Knowing a new Samurai Shodown is coming, made me revisit this vid.
What I loved about the first two SS games were that they far less combo-driven than the other fighters at the time. They rewarded a well timed single hard slash, which can take off huge amounts of health. It was more about timing and spacing instead of chaining crazy combos... I really hope the new game goes back to that. It’d really be a nice change-up from the hyper combo style fighters that dominate the market.
I can't stand the combo system in Marvel 3. My idea of fun in a fighting game isn't sitting there when i'm hit just waiting for my opponent to hopefully drop the combo. I love how in mvc1 it's all about the short and powerful combos.
In my time of playing MvC1 in the arcades and playing Origins, not one person used infinites on me.
***** I think the biggest difference is ease of use for those examples. MVC1 infinites are a lot harder to do and to set up than a touch of death in MVC3. I mean I can barely play MVC3 and even I could land some touch of death combos on my friends. Intermediate players can land them consistantly in MVC3. Not so common to see back in the 90's-2000's.
Generally, if I have to wait for more than three seconds after getting hit, I consider the combo too long. Some fighting games are more like 1.5 player rather than 2 player. First person to get a hit gets to keep playing while the other guy waits.
Long combos and overpowered okizeme are the two things keeping me from enjoying most fighting games as much as I could have.
Call me a fanboy or whatever, but I genuinely think USFIV has kind of a good balance. Combos CAN be long, but they always require meter and really damn good timing Personally MvC3 is kind of the example of going too far Combos that kill are literally everywhere to the point one or two combos and you're dead.
Yeah tekken is similar, 3 combos and you're dead, not combo breaking mechanics, it's a mindset to have, basically don't have a mistake but meh
Yoshin Pixels Anytime somebody did a long combo on me in USF4 I was so impressed. Infact I was actually rooting for my opponent to to a long combo on me or me to my opponent just to see it. Basically if your opponent was constantly combo-ing you then they were good lol.
In my side of things, I think that the longer the combo, the less damaging it should be. After a while you get really bored of being stuck in never ending long combos and watch your character flying all over the screen. I understand that the mechanic of KI is based around combos and I do like it. But other fighting games... should stay in their own style and go back to the hard to do 20hits. It's way more fun and playable that way.
I think long combo systems are kind of dumb. It becomes more focused on execution and takes away from the neutral game, spacing, footsies..etc..That's why SFIV and Smash Brothers is so great. The combos are, for the most part, short and sweet but rewarding when you punish someone. It's like the game of Chess changing so that pawns can be upgraded once they take one or two other figures. It's silly.
I think that combo based fighters have their place, but should probably not be the default fighting game form. as it ends up creating two tiers of players: elite super bad asses who eat every player for breakfast and newbies who can pull off a 4-7 hit combo into super. The discrepancy between these two tiers is too great.
I used to like combo fighters until I first started playing Street fighter 4. That game made me appreciate small combo fighters, because you have to work for every bit of damage. Sure, there are combos that can shave off a lot of health, but you have to really practice to do it consistently. In some games, it seems like as soon as you get an opening, they just lose half their health bar. You cant do that in SF; you cant just trap them in a 30-hit combo into super/ultra. So it teaches you to appreciate smaller combos that rack up damage, as opposed to throwing all your eggs into one basket for a single giant attack string.
Simple solution (?):
Larger or slower characters: Shorter, more damaging combos.
Smaller, faster characters: Longer combos for damage.
Would it work?
That I could agree on. It's makes games more balanced
You'd be pushing new players towards slower characters. New players will probably stick with slower characters.
What you should probably add is probably a way around knowing combos by allowing players flexibility in combat.
This way fast characters shine alongside slow ones without barriers.
Yes I think combo length should depend on character
i'm a huge street fighter fan (B-rank T.Hawk on PSN in SSF4:AE; my T.Hawk song remix is featured on the remix disc from the SF 25th anniversary bundle) and whenever i play a new fighting game i always try to find the easiest-to-use characters because my execution isn't good enough for long combos... however, there will always be a place in the market for long-combo-fighting-games... i just hope that combos dont become universally long in the future... long combos are impressive but they take away from the 2-player-ness of the game, turning it into a turn-based battle. I like short combos better.
What's wrong with Blazbue? It's fine, the combos aren't too long at all. Certainly not Marvel length, you just have to learn one or two combos for midscreen and corner for most characters, then your good to go. It's pretty much impossible to do infinites in Blazblue as one has not been found yet, and you won't be seeing incredibly high damage with most characters either until you get meter. Which is halfway through the round. And the Burst Mechanic is still there too. Honestly, the only characters with seriously long combos or high execution is really people like, Litchi, Hazama, Carl and I can't think of anyone else.
Latest Blazblue game: yes i think it is almost perfect by now. BB CP's combo system is ideal, not too long and not too short. But go back to continuum shift for a moment. Sometimes i caught myself up on falling asleep during certain charcater's combos.
I think giant combos create such a skill barrier that turns off alot of gamers and why they avoid fighting games which kind of sucks
powersoftritone it’s not even skill. you literally memorize a combo and then can effectively end a fight after one opening.
@@brandonbaskin2410 memorisation and execution are skill based tasks but I get what you mean
I don't want games like Marvel to go away, but I would definitely like to see more fighting games that didn't focus on huge combo damage.
After playing tons of UMvC3, Skullgirls, BlazBlue, etc., it is getting kind of boring to have to spend time mastering the execution for game ending combos, and I would love to see more fighters that reward you more for having a good neutral game and mixups/setups, then having time spent in the lab.
Another thought is, making the requirements for executing long combos harder as well. (Counter Hit only Combos etc.) My 2 cents.
The game that fits both styles of play with also balance is KOFXIII right now. Without Hyper Gauge, it feels more like SF with short combos while not being broken. Once you get 1 bar of Hyper gauge, you are able to extend your combo for a bit of a longer combo and even mix in some Super meter into it. Now when you get 2 Hyper Bars, you have access to the extremely long combos but they still required skill and muscle memory to do. Activating HD Mode less you put out alot of pressure and even cancel moves you normally cant on block. It's nice to use it to do Guard damage too.
There are no damage buffs involved and glad it stayed true to the older KOF games without doing what MVC did with X-Factor. I don't mind an mechanic that allows long combos, however, damage buffs in a mode is something I don't like.
KOFXIII hit the spot on balance of short and long combos. Everyone has short and long combos based on your Hyper and Super/Desperation meter. The ability to use your meter for defense also helps halt being pressured. You have to make good reads since you cant FADC from DPs, so the Guard cancels, Rolls, and Blowback attacks add in defense options in the game.
Watch enough KOFXIII from Gameacho or Gato Ray channels and you see every character is viable, no matter what Tier they are. Reason it's called an honest fighter among the games out. Mr.Karate may be considered top tier, but he can be dealt with when you use your tools right.
Long combos are cool and add a nice challenge to games for people who wish to learn all of them or complete the challenge mode that many fighters offer thesedays.
Unlimited combos that you have no way of escaping and just wait until you die are simply stupid.
I think the issue is less the combo length in my opinion but the overall damage you get when you get a combo in.
In SF4, with no meter someone can jump in and there goes maybe 20% of an opponent's lifebar and a knockdown. The most important thing is the opponent gets up and gets another chance to defend themselves.
Blazblue has slightly longer combos than SF4 (unless it's the corner), but that's about the same amount of life taken off per combo. (Note: Guilty Gear is actually kinda the same, but with the guts system there, initial combos when a victim's life bar is over half seem to deal a shitload of damage but subsequent ones probably won't deal as much.)
While in Marvel 3, theoretically 1 combo = dead character (you usually build the meter required for the super/s at the end during the combo), so I can understand some players feel the opponent has no chance to move after this, whereas it can be thought of as like SF4, where if you combine the three lifebars together, a combo takes off 33% damage and the opponent will have a chance to move after that (even if they're subjected to a mixup afterwards while the next character jumps in, but that's the same thing with SF4's vortexes or even plain wakeup mixups). Note however, that unlike the above examples. Marvel 3 doesn't have rounds, so there's actually less chance for the opponent to defend.
I always wished ranked matches had rounds in Marvel 3 but thats why I like player matches more :D
That's a very interesting topic indeed. I like fighting games not because they give me chance to pummel my opponents with long flashy combos, but, rather because I can analyze my opponents, their play style, and try to counter it, knowing full well that they can and will do the same. So it's basically battle of minds.
Now, regarding the combos. I think that they should be like "six or seven normals with couple of specials plus super finisher". It will require some training, but not too much, so even new players can learn them pretty fast. It is long enough to drop it sometimes, but, again, not horribly long.
Recent as in Marvehl? Yes. Recent as in KI? No!
Mostly because Marvehl had INSANELY long combos, where you could basically sit back and wonder how you could prevented it. In KI the combos are over fairly quickly, if even if they're very long(Or am I just imagining this?)
No you're not imagining this, I competently agree. For some reason in ki a high damage combo feels really short.
IZUNA DROP Agreed. Not to mention in KI, you have the ability of using combo breakers. In Marvel, you have to sit there and eat the combo. Just like in Tekken, as well. No ability to break combos. If they gave that feature in marvel, it would near revive the game.
I agree but in KI you get long combos because 1. Either your foe is not guessing, or 2. Your foe keeps guessing wrong. Marvel actually makes you sit back and watch loops.
It would be very interesting to see people have to mix up their marvel combos instead of the same old combo everyone sees
When it stopped becoming a game of skill and chance, it stopped being a game of enjoyment and real competition, marvel. I used to be a good player....until death combos came into the scene.
I remember the ten strings in Tekken which I took my time to master only to find out that they weren't actually combos as the manual says it is. It's great that it was commonly known and in the command menu but all that practice does not pay off at all if your opponent can hit out of it. I actually felt cheated by the game designers for asking me to put effort into something that had a poor reward, as an animator I would also be annoyed at this, since there would hardly be incentive to perform the work I set up.
To answer the question, I think combos should be shorter. Only because a juggle fest does not look fun to watch. Even in Tekken Tag 2 the juggles do not look anywhere as good as those ten strings.
Jim Fitton +1 from a fellow tekken player.
Jim Fitton I agree.
Long combos can brake games if they can't be broken or limited.
+Jim Fitton i thought i was the only one who appreciated short, precise strings.
I think the main problem with fighting games with really long combos is that there's hardly any leniency when getting caught in these combos. If you're against a player who can pull off these super long combos, you have to pray that they slip up and end the combo early, or simply put down the controller because the match is pretty much over from there. It turns the game into a test of memory, rather than a test of skill; which could have easily been remedied with a Combo Breaker like what Killer Instinct and Mortal Kombat have
I just think there should be a way to break combos at the cost of something in long combo fighting games. Like a 2 bar cost break in Umc3. Then there would be another strategy element added to the game. Wondering if saving that character would be worth it, and the person doing the combo would also have to keep on their toes for the break instead of going into auto mode.
To answer your question: Yeah, I think so in a lot of cases. I think TheTurtleOfDoom said it best, really.
But basically even though you only brought it up briefly I kinda wanted to say this: I love fighting games, and I buy them all the time, because I like the characters and the animations and the storylines even in some cases. But I'm AWFUL at them. No matter how much I look up combos, I can't get good at any one Fighting game. And that sucks, because I love Guilty Gear SO MUCH. But the reason I think I can never play fighting games isn't because I can't remember combos, it's that I find them too difficult to play in general. There's a lot of technicality and manual dexterity and you have to use the joystick to do moves, but the joystick also moves your character. I find myself doing a lot of accidental jumping around when I'm trying to pull off moves. This is why I love games like Smash Bros, which have very simple button inputs and the combos come from creativity; reacting to the DI of your opponent and acting accordingly-- and not muscle memory. And they're very short! About 2-5 hits typically. This way the player recieving the combo has a chance to... y'know. Get back on their feet. Get their bearings. Have a chance to retaliate. It's a fight, not a slaughter. That's just how I feel about fighting games in general anyway.
I think both long combos and short can stay, though I would like to see more games with the shorter combos. It doesn't really feel like much of a "fighting" game if the majority of the time one player is doing absolutely nothing except waiting for a combo to end
Personally I prefer shorter combos. I enjoy more on playing mind games for the majority of the game instead of comboing. Combos are fun and all but I don't believe they should be the main thing in a fighting game.
Fighting games have a lot of depth. Super bars to make longer combos is better since it gives you the ability to make long combos as a "reward" for being aggressive in the game.
+Yume Aihara Yeah I totally agree with you. I think fighting games should be about fundamentals and mindgames instead of long ass combos.
I definitly understand your point Max. I used to be a professional Injustice player (Hadn't played the game in a few months) and most of the long combos are nessassary to win a game, although some are insane and fun to pull off. However, if the opponent is in their 2nd life bar, the player has to shorten their combos and do mix-ups to avoid their long combos being clashed. Solomon Grundy is a great example: He does have long combos, but his true power comes from his mix-ups and even his short combos do monster damage. recent tournaments have show cased what the new Grundy can now do. If played right, he's a monster and you don't need combos to win a game with him!
Skullgirls. I think they did something very interesting where repeating combo inputs which could result in an infinite combo would trigger an auto combo breaker ability in the Combo-ed opponent. I think that's not a bad direction into circumventing these first strike infinie combo loops.
Exactly. Or, like BlazBlue, where if you use a single move three times in the same combo it does no damage. You get penalized for trying to do infinites. A system like the in Marvel would make everything so much more interesting.
Are fighting game combos too long? I think the real question is are they balanced? KI is the best example of long combos that are balanced. You have a chance to break them (and it increases as the combo goes on) and you spin out after the bar fills (even in the old ones you pop out.) Everybody can also do combos that can lob off near 45%-60% damage a piece. And those combos don't have insane execution either, leading to easy combos, with a glimmer of light for the other player to break them (or you can counter breaker them.)
UMvC3 is a good example of long combos that are totally broken (not that it destroys the game or anything.) One hit can lead into a TAC infinite from most of the cast (most take VERY high precision to due though), or death. Some characters have combos that lead into ToD as long as meter is available (Vergil or Zero for example.) That game wouldn't be broken if TACs were gone, as everyone has something "ridiculous". I guess it depends on how you like your fighting game.
***** X-factor is interesting. It makes many characters utterly ridiculous and it gives players "a second chance". I feel the only character that has a totally unfair x-factor would be Vergil (WAY too much damage and speed boosts due to devil trigger stacking with it.) And even then I would reduce the 'stacking' effects of supers that buff speed and damage.
***** Some character have insane execution with their combos. I find them pretty hype too.
I think even if all characters in a game had long, high damage combos (ie. balanced), I still don't think it's a good aspect to have. It means you have to make fewer good moves to win, because after that initial catch, it's only execution. While execution is important and impressive, it is not the same as outsmarting your opponent. Also, performing a long combo is a solo activity, and fighting games are meant to be played with 2 people.
Street Fighter 3 does it right.
Characters with short combo strings were semi-powerful in damage, but had flaws (Q, Alex, Hugo). Characters with long strings were difficult, but they got more damage and had less flaws out of the deal (Dudley, Urien, Yun, Oro). And mid-range combo characters were decent all around with semi-short combos (Ken, Ryu, Chun-Li).
I like it the most due to the ease of picking it up, learning target combos, and then easily chaining them into bigger combos. They didn't have to be absurdly long, and the game feels just right when it comes to damage. You don't necessarily NEED skill to deal damage, but it helps. Short combo games like MVC and Soul Calibur feel a little too fast paced, but can be fun. Long Combo games are kinda annoying since it favors those who have mastered execution into 100+ combos. Granted, Killer Instinct breaks the mold by having a way to "stop" the combos, as does Injustice (if only once), but I hate the "touch of death" some people have, and it discourages new players from playing online.
Meh, I'm kinda on the fence on this one. Through personal experience, I view long combos as a necessity and a captivating design aesthetic for not only contributing to the learning curve and rewarding experience of the game they are in, It even builds on the importance other aspects like spacing and mindgames because lets be honest, no matter the length and damage of you're combo, it doesn't mean shit if you can't land or finish it, let alone touch the opponent. The long combos in Marvel 3 were what inspired me to take fighters more seriously, and sparked my overall appreciation for other fighters, as well as the genre and what it has to offer within the gaming community. I always saw combos as the center of learning the different elements of a fighting game. The properties of different characters' attacks, understanding the combat system, analysis of win/lose situations during matches and more stem from optimal paths to finding damage, which is the core aspect of mastering any fighting game. Of course, as I expanded to more fighting games and fighting game players, I found that long combos may be intimidating to others than a motivation. Not everyone likes the intensive, excecution-heavy combos as no one likes to be reminded of a lapse in judgement or missed timing. The fact that they can't pull these combos off themselves also frightens people because it they feel incapable of understanding the learning curve.
On a side note, lol what lengthy combos did you find in Injustice Max? I always found that combos in Injustice were short. Most of them didn't even include supers and forget doing big damage. Virtually every combo was up to only a third of the health bar, which each player got two of. The vortex-based mixups are possibly the reason it feels like the combos are long. Then again, I am used to the combos in Marvel 3 being long so everything else is relatively short.
I literally just posted the same point about Injustice. :D I mean honestly, I can get better damage off the right six hitter than my flashy twenty plusser.
I'd rather choose to allow my opponent to get back up after a knockdown. Then we just go at it again. It's a respect thing. No re-launch BS for eternity.
Let's fight like gentlemen.
Yeah, I do the same thing when I play chess. Right when I trap his king, I let him out because winning is retarded.
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
coolbman2 ugh.
iucidium1982 what?
coolbman2 There are encounters prior to trapping the king in chess. Smaller battles where you TAKE TURNS.
Never give up the war.
Well, I think of it like this: I can't get out of this combo at all, so I just end up putting the controller down for a bit to see if they mess up. If the game lets me escape or counter, to which my opponent can do the same, we get what we love to see in fictional fighting: a flurry of counters, blocks and blows flying quick and hard. I feel SO great knowing there is a system for perfectly blocking an attack, when I'm playing SSBB and we really start trading attacks and all you hear is the TING sound of a perfect shield, the energy of the fight really picks up.
Games like Umvc3, with super long, mechanically complex , hard combos, make the game almost inaccessible to noobs like me no matter how much time and love I put in to marvel, I get nothing out. Never the less, I still love the crap out of MAHVEL!
If a fighting game is gonna have ridiculously long combos, then at least have a system where you can break out of it or counter it because let's all be honest, nobody wants to sit there not being able to do anything for like 20 seconds because their opponent is doing like an 80-hit combo and having no option, but to sit there and watch. That's why I like the short combo street fighter system and the killer instinct combo break system. Either way, just have a fighting game where there is always a way to defend yourself
Well, there's a reason I call MvC3 "Mash Many Buttons Online". It's reached the point of sheer silliness, where you just poke at each others' defenses until a hit gets through, and then it's Air Juggle Super Move 100% Damage time.
I think the new KI has gotten it in the sweet spot. Lots of hits, lots of damage potential, but the smart opponent always has a chance to break the chain and turn things around. It's a lot more cerebral, or at least psychological, than most fighting games I've seen.
TL;DR because this post is actually for a class...
The issue with long combos is they remove the other player from the game. Unless a game includes a mechanic for the combo'd player to interact, they just sit there for 10 seconds or some other ridiculous amount of time waiting patiently, or impatiently, for the next available strike. When UMVC 3 characters can just 100% another character's health bar off one tap, the losing player gets put at a significant disadvantage that they cannot prevent because they are stuck in a combo. The point you make at 4:00, I think is an extremely important one, Max. Combos present a significant barrier to entry for new players. Some people simply can't afford a console to practice with or spend hours at an arcade. Their playing these games often comes from visiting a friend's house. However that creates a scenario like one discussed in a Battlefield Heroes forum where the original poster loves playing fighting games with his friends, but because he owns the games, his ability to combo is significantly higher than his friends'. The games lose their fun factor because he is left with a choice: put out too much damage or hold back, neither of which is a terribly fun experience. His case caused him to seek other games that do not emphasize combo oriented engines. The common response of "just get better" (often masked as "reward the greater time investment") does not solve this scenario and only serves to further divide local communities and friendships into haves and have-nots.
That's not to say non-combo oriented games require no skill, though. They just don't have as many auto-win button combinations which, if anything, means they probably require more skill. At the end of the day, the real talent in a fighting game should come from your ability to interact with and outsmart your opponent, an vital element in every fighting game. Long combos have no interaction with the opponent outside of initiating the combo. All they show skill-wise is capacity to remember a series of executions, but rote memorization can hardly be called skill in any context, especially when compared to actually interacting with your opponent. All the other player can do is wait for you to drop the combo or their character dies. The combo removes the chess element for too long and at too much reward for the comboing player. There are some who defend the difficulty in executing long combos, that that effort should be rewarded. However, one, that only bites into the argument above about the divisive nature of that style. Two, that makes a big assumption as to what should be rewarded. Why should fast hands repeating motions receive a win over calculating strategy. In a combo style game, the strategy revolves around the question "how do I get in?" once, maybe twice. From there the game is," I'm in, time to win." In other games, that interaction is valued from start to finish. Wit, mind games, and spacing are constant elements in a match, and no player can run away with a game simply because they got in first.
That being said, if a game takes long combos and inserts mechanics for the other player to intervene mid-combo, the game can still have that necessary interactive skill involved. I think this is where your including modern Killer Instinct with the other combo games is flawed, Max. Killer Instinct is a really cool engine with its breaker and counter mechanics. Its long combos have an element of when to break, when not to break and counter and so on. The chess match and mind game elements are far more valuable in Killer Instinct compared to other combo oriented games because even though a combo is going on, there is always an element of risk. A player who is too repetitive will have their combos broken. Killer Instinct is probably the most interesting implementation of combos with interactive strategy. Other games with burst mechanics are close but not quite at the same level. The latest Skullgirls version is probably second with the way bursts become available throughout combos.
There is one other response to long combos that I think is cool with Divekick. That game is loads of fun, anyone can pick it up and play it, but it still requires intense attentiveness and interaction with the opponent. Instead of making combos interactive, we can remove combos entirely and just play a game of tag! First hit wins! There is something pure, I think, in this approach. It's best described as a "minute to learn, lifetime to master" type game, and it provides opportunity for hours of fun with almost anyone who picks up two buttons to play it. But Divekick still has those fundamentals of a fighting game in its spacing strategy and mind games and quick reactions and setups. The game's increased accessibility does not make it a worse game. It loses no value by being a simpler game. If anything, I think there is value added in its ability to appeal to a lot of people and provide a good time for all, without sacrificing any strategic elements.
So, I think overall, I'd agree with you on most of your points about combos, Max. The fighting game genre necessitates interplay between the opponents, and, absent mechanics built into a system that increase interaction during a combo (for example, breakers and bursts), long combos prevent that vital interactive element. Thanks, dood. Keep putting out awesome videos!
I prefer short to mid length combos. Not hard to execute but patient to master
My view and experience between the two fighting styles:
Long combos games - easier to play because the window to connect hits aren't really strict but longer the combos, the heavier the scaling of damage give to opponent in most modern fighting games; it becomes a memorization game after a point.
Short combos games - harder to play because the window to connect hits are way more short and precise thus rewarding the player to performing the combination under pressure with massive damage. Learning how to perform these combos takes way more practice and strategic studying.
Don't mind long combos as long as they are scaled and the opponent has chances for countering during the combo with some sacrifice of tension gauge or special meter.
I love doing stylish combos. It doesn't matter if its a 5 hit combo or a 100 hit combo, as long as it looks cool.
It's funny that you bring this up Max, myself and a group of fighting gamers have been coming up with plans for our own fighting game. Combos always come into mind as to what should go into what and how combos should end. Short combos can be a scary tactic but it doesn't have the hype factor of long combos. So I that what's needed is a good combination of the two. Not saying that we should go from 6 hits to 600, but combos that only last in a specific hit range like 1-50 or 1-100, and to save players from mvc3 death combos, there's this thing called damage scaling or whatever it's called that lessens damage the more amount of hits you get. Things like this can help out in terms of keeping players from getting wrecked off of one long ass combo. The game we're making, it's based on Street fighter 4, so a lot of the game play will go with this in mind.
As a guy who loves watching really good fighting game players but can never match that, I am fine with fighting games that have long combo systems. However, I agree with Max that I want to have new games come out that don't require that. When I say that my favorite game is Super Smash Bros it might appear like oh it's just for casuals, but the reason why I like it so much is that the barrier for entry is so small. Skill still wins out almost all the time as you still have that back and forth gameplay.
From my experience as a designer I've put a lot of thought into this issue. The short answer is simply that there's a place for both kinds, and they just appeal to different groups of people. There are advantages and disadvantages at a player level to each system.
The main advantage of the long combo system is that performing and watching long, flashy combos is fun. It feels awesome to pull off really difficult combos and it's also more fun for spectators to watch in the short-term. After many hours logged into a long-combo system game, however, many (but not all) players and spectators will end up being bored by the long combos because they've seen them many times before and now must wait for them to complete. Games like Killer Instinct mitigate this issue with many combo breaking options: the defending player still has things to do while they're getting the crap kicked out of them rather than just hoping the opponents mess up.
The disadvantages? Long combo systems place a huge skill barrier for players to reach "competency" at the game. Learning a full MvC3 combo takes an incredible amount of time in training mode, but the difference between a player who can perform such combos and a player that cannot is unsurpassable. There are many elements of skill in fighting games that make them interesting and fun at high levels of play, from spacing and positioning to "Yomi" where you're outplaying your opponent by getting in their head and countering them preemptively. Those moments really shine, but long combo systems block that pinnacle of skill to those that have not invested the training mode hours, as outplaying your opponent can only go so far when their hits lead to ten times as much guaranteed damage. This is not to say that in longer combo systems those other elements of skill are less important: they are what decide matches in high level play. They're just not important until players have equal levels of combo skill, which is extremely difficult for new players to obtain.
Further, the "short combo" system oftentimes has combos short enough to learn within the course of normal matches. Players don't have to use a single-player training mode environment to commit simple , four-hit combos to muscle memory, they can just learn by trying and screwing up a few times mid-match. The longer a combo is, however, the more impractical this becomes. A full MvC3 combo simply cannot be learned without an incredible amount of repetition and experimentation on timing that learning much past the opening is impractical mid-match.
Long combo systems have really just one key advantage (long combos are really fun) and a slew of disadvantages, but don't let that fool you. That one key advantage is BIG. Just about everyone who enjoys MvC3 at a high level will say they enjoy the combo system, and that's fantastic. That's more than enough to overcome the disadvantages and make them truly enjoy the game. On the same token, just about everyone who doesn't like MvC3 at a high level will say it's because of the ridiculous combo system, and that's also fine. That one advantage wasn't considered worth the disadvantages to them. People are different.
When designers make a fighting game, it's not a question of whether "fighting games" in general should have long or short combo system or whether a long or short combo system is inherently better. It's about knowing the advantages and disadvantages of each system and crafting the game that they think will be the most enjoyable to whatever audience they choose to make the game for. It won't appeal to everyone, and that's okay. Both systems are good... they're just different.
I think it should be a mix of some sort to bring back the intense strategy of the game. Not a thousand hit combo but a thousand moves at your command. Always keeps the opponent guessing.
I think skullgirls has an excellent remedy to the long combo problem, where no infinites are possible and if a player is getting hit too much they can eventually burst out. When combined with damage scaling this emphasizes optimal combos rather than long combos.
I didn't actually play much Alpha 2, but it seemed to have a lot of long combos with the Custom Combo system. I think this existed in CVS2 as well, although in general, you saw a lot shorter combos due to all the Groove choices. And I believe KOF 2002 had a very similar system to XIII's HD combos, but again, I didn't experience much of that game myself.
Anyway, on topic, I would like to see another game like Street Fighter 4 in the sense that it generally has less focus on combos, and more about the neutral game. (Although that got pretty ruined by how set play heavy it became with certain characters, which I hope Ultra will help alleviate) High execution combos are fun to do and watch to an extent, but what I like the most is seeing how people think and try to outsmart each other.
That said, I would also like to see more games with longer combos as well. It's good to have a mixture of both.
Honestly, I'd much rather have crazy big combos than two to four attacks that can probably stun your character, and then another couple of attacks that can result in your death. In Marvel 3, for example, giant combos are fun to watch, because you're aware of how much skill and execution is needed for it to succeed. I'm always happy when I see a 50+ hit combo (depending on how stylish and "non-repetitive" it is), regardless of it being executed by me, or my opponent. All in all, I'm a fan of hype huge combos, but I have nothing against those who prefer the old school short combos in fighting games.
Marth Combos on Fox on FD.
Beautiful. And Deadly as Fuck.
He's so freakin elegant looking! XD
To me,this focus on large damage and long combo's is a signal of devolution in the genre.
Players are losing focus in developing every other aspect involved in being 'good' at the genre ( Movement, spacing, neutral game and etc.) and focusing exclusively on their combo play. Think, how many times have you been in an online match against someone who could perform a ridiculously long combo,but when put in a situation where they CAN'T rely on their combo for the win, they absolutely crumble apart? They don't know anything else!
We don't need to END long combo chains, we just need to stop making it an industry standard and practical Bullet point for the genre.
I'd say if combos have to be long, simplify the execution language. P4A is dirt simple; specials consist largely of QCF/B's and 22's but it isn't missing much of the nuance of most airdashers, or 2D fighters in general. I think it just gets to the point.
Even though it's been a big while since this video came out, my personal opinion is: there's no problem with long combos, but the problem is about combos that can't be broken. You see, combos are one of the ways of winning fighting games, combined with lot's of other stuff, but when you have a game in which you can actually unbreakable combos, things get actually unfair. Some may "it was lack of skill evading it" but it's certainly unfair because you don't get as much chance to counter, just if by any means the opposite player messes the combo.
A great example is UMvC3, that is really, REALLY not balanced at all. You get a team/character that can chain moves constantly and not let the opponent get up, you practically won. And it's been about 4 years it has been launched. A great counter example is MK9, because even if you get combo resets and combo cancels for heavy harassing, you still got the condition that it's going to stop, mainly when doing combos with enemies on the air since the opponent drops faster to the ground each time you launch or juggle with him/her.
Concluding, there's no problem with long combos in fighting games, but at least they've got to have some way to make them shorter or to break them.
I think noobs like watching big comboes, but when just beginning to jump into a game, 50 hit comboes are a nightmare to even want to learn. That's like a series of 50 inputs to learn. Most people can only remember 5-9 items in working memory. A little bit ironic, don't you think?
Thank you for featuring me in this video ( Awky- ) had a blast playing MvC with you :3
I dont mind long combos too much. What I do mind is not balancing long combos. UMVC3 is the ultimate example. One touch can lead to one long kill combo with nothing you can do. In that case I hate long combos. This is why I like fighting games like street fighter and smash brothers. They have combos, but make it so it doesn't break the game. I agree I want to see shorter combos or a more balanced long combo system.
The combos aren't the problem at all in UMvC3. Any decently put together team (read: not top tier, ANY team that has decent synergy) should be able to put out damage off of one hit. The problem in UMvC3 is that the top-tier characters completely shut down other characters' neutral games, or bypass their strategies completely. Zero's ability to buster cancel, his incredible mix ups, and very strong neutral game are what make him ridiculous, not his damage output. Morrigan is great because soul fists + missiles makes getting in for 90% of the cast an extremely arduous task, and it's really safe because unfly has no recovery. Her actual combo damage, going off of her own combo abilities alone and not combined with a TAC infinite or something (which is another gamebreaker), is pretty low and has been since vanillla MvC3. The real problem with UMvC3's balance is that against the best characters, worse characters often really are helpless. What can She Hulk or Arthur do on incoming against Zero? Absolutely nothing, they have no good options to defend against the multiple incoming difficult-to-see 50/50 mix ups Zero's going to throw at them. I'd personally suggest a guard cancel blowback mechanic, like in KOF, so that at least if you do block a mix up correctly, you have a chance to get the opposing character off you and be able to play the neutral game again. I don't mean X-Factor either, because nowadays popping XFC early like that is just a bad idea.
tl;dr: Strong combos won't feel "unfair" if you at least feel like you had just as much of a chance to hit the other player with one as they had on you. Characters who completely shut down other characters' options do feel unfair (because really, they are) and are the real cause of a lot of persons' grievances with UMvC3. That or they're scrubs who wanted to mash, got hit, and blamed the combo system because they died.
I think both combo systems have their own merits. For games like (U)MvC3, in which combos literally KO a character from full health, I think things like the Mega Crash or Combo Breaker need to be in effect. Admittedly, I might be biased since I grew up on SF II, then Soul Calibur, in which combos are short with respectable but not instant win tier damage.
*Grabs popcorn, pulls up a chair, waits for the backdraft*
Yes, they are entirely too long.
Let us consider a game like Hotline Miami. Unrelated, yes, because it's a totally different genre, but I think my logic still holds true.
If you've played Hotline Miami, you know that you die every few seconds, usually. When you do, with no loading screen, you appear at the start to try again. There is no reason to get frustrated, because you can just try again, because the levels are so short.
Now imagine that there was a loading screen, even of just a few seconds. Let's just say five seconds, for the argument.
During those five seconds, you're pissed off. You're swearing. You just want to jump back in and see what you can do, maybe get some revenge. You get angrier every single time this happens.
To me, this is how I feel about fighting games now. Single touch, 3492834 hit combo that takes 15+ seconds to complete, everyone uses the same 25% of the cast because they have the best combos, so you're stuck watching the same 15 seconds of what is essentially an unskippable cutscene until you die. Unless a game is build around stopping this behavior (kinda sorta Killer Instinct), or this behavior is just hard to do (Street Fighter), this constant downtime just isn't fun, and, to me, is just poor game design masquerading as "well, that's just how the game is, learn your combos, assholes".
It's the kind of thing that prevents me from playing fighting games online just due to how aggravating it is. I don't even buy fighting games anymore just because of how much of a clusterfuck they all are of particle effects, 100+ hit combos, and horrible balance problems that aren't rectified because they thought 30+ characters was fine instead of 5-10 useful ones. You can say "well fighting games are for the hardcore audience, you should play something else if you don't want to invest time into them". This is true, but I can't even play a fighting game anymore without finding the weird guys online who know the infinites or the glitches or someone like Max who will pound my ass into the ground with absolutely no mercy.
Tl;dr, getting your ass beat for 15 seconds with no ability to control the situation is not fun, has never been fun, and will never be fun for the average player, and this is the rare case in which I think the entire genre has paid far too much attention to a hardcore mentality than a general player mentality.
Good Question Max.
I'm reminded of one of the first insights Chemical Lovers makes in their Airdash Academy series: "Often we see a problem of unorganized information in fighting games". This very problem I'm starting to believe infects virtually all of fighting game design, and long combos are only one symptom of it.
I can't really say long combos are a problem or not, but there should be more ways to counter them than the comboer's momentary execution level (or maybe even more than a burst system too).
I love fighting games; they're the most challenging genre to understand I've encountered (payoff aint bad either), but question regardless, I vote that fighting games ultimately need better design.
For everyone who wants to play a solid "new" 2D-fighter with chains, short combos and good footsies - take a look at Aquapazza.
seconding Aquapazza, and adding Shin Koihime Musou (except for the chain part, which isn't in SKM).
I'd love a 2021 follow up to this video.
I find it interesting that, according to this comment section, the general consensus was that combos were getting too long; but nowadays with games like granblue, sfv, mk11 and Samsho, you hear that "fighting games are too easy now". So much so that people are already put off of GG Strive before we even know the starting roster because it looks "too easy" compared to Xrd.
IMO, I don't think we would have an issue with combo length if we had variety. Or if even within the games, different characters had different combo lengths instead of X game having long combos and Y game having short combos. I won't lie though, I thought Guilty gear would be the last bastion of crazy, complicated fighting games in an Era of accessiblity, so to see it simplified does kinda sting
They should be shorter, but not much. Something like, 20 hits if you have enough meter and such.
Now, call me crazy, or idiot, but I think fighting games revolve too much on not letting your opponent react to your attacks.
Anyone can learn long-ass combos or making pressure with the same 2 moves over and over again. It's just not fun if you can't punish or react in any way.
I honestly think it should be a common feature giving a margin of "rest" at the end of each combo, allowing the beat up opponent to attack back.
From what I've seen they usually balance out the combo length to damage output ratio in games today. Like in many arcsys games you get these big combos off but after the first hit your doing less and less damage so going for shorter but more powerful combos instead of trying to go for a 50 second infinite seems a lot better in my opinion.
Games with ''Long Combos'': ''Long Combo'' being a combo that exceeds 20+ hits on a regularity.
Killer Instinct
Marvel Vs. Capcom 3
I hardly think this is a highly debatable topic. On the subset of MvC:3, okay. They're long, and with no real system implemented, you're forced to sit and hope the opponent drops the combo. Okay, I get that. We all get that.
As for Killer Instinct, they DO have a system in order to punish ''Long Combos'', so it comes down to the ''Do I risk this high damaging, long combo and have a chance of having it interrupted, or do I do this shorter, safer combo for some guaranteed damage?'' So at that point, the discussion is kind of moot.
By the way Max, you can't avoid it.
Ultimate/Trilogy MK:3 Boss Rage. Get. On. It.
"Games with ''Long Combos'': ''Long Combo'' being a combo that exceeds 20+ hits on a regularity.
Killer Instinct
Marvel Vs. Capcom 3"
Also Skullgirls, BlazBlue, Persona 4 Arena, (arguably) Injustice, King of Fighters... the list is a lot longer than you claim.
When I first started playing fighting games, someone sent me some hate mail calling me "All juggle, no skill." At first, my friends and I laughed at this, thinking he was a noob. But looking back on that day, I agree. I had gotten so caught up with long juggle combos, and neglected key aspects to fighters like reading, punishing, footsies, etc. I'd like more of a focus on those in the future, since that is now what I value most.
I prefer the shorter combos for the most part. Not only is it frustrating watching your character getting beat up for 20 minutes straight while you can't do anything, it takes away from the gameplay. Instead of having to land several hits, you only have to land two or three, or sometimes just one if it's a vortex and they guess wrong once or twice.
+acousticplayer3 That's pretty much why I, like the minority, hated UMvC3. It's pretty much whoever gets the first hit and it's over, but it's flashy to look at. There's no basics being learned, no one learning about the characters, it's just learning that combo. That's why I think Street Fighter 2 Turbo is best when it comes to fighting games. Not only does it force you to learn the basics of the game, it also forces you to learn everything about the characters and strict timing if you want to do the damaging combos.
there is a game called the last blade where you can choose between "power" for hard hitting punchs that cant be comboed or "speed" where you can make long combos but for less damage
I think Darkstalkers has one of the best combo systems. The combos were really short and they can be damaging. But getting damage wasn't easy because of the system. It still took a lot of execution. It was very easy to get into but it was difficult to do combos.
But Capcom just seems to get lightning in a bottle almost every time. The Marvel games aren't designed to play the way they do. When they were designing the game, they probably didn't foresee people doing what they do now. The way the games are played today is due to years of tech being developed.
That happened with Skullgirls too. Mike Z wanted to make a system with freedom and people just pushed it to the limit and made combos too long and the damage was too high. He had to make major changes to the game to fix it. Stopping long combos means adding restrictions. Devs don't want to add restrictions because that affects creativity. The balance is really difficult to judge until you see what people are doing.
I recently began playing fighting games again. It's been about 10 years or more and I find it that the longer the combos the harder I have to work on practice mode to eventually enjoy playing with friends...I like learning some quick bread and butter stuff and jump online or jump online blind and figure things out. So in short having shorter combos in newer games will help the casual gamer jump in and not feel threatend. Games like K I are still awesome but it was built around that whole combo system.
I've always seen fighting games more kin to a game of chess, so i do believe that large combos must be stripped away. When im fighting an opponent im trying to get in his head trying to figure out his moves 3 steps in advance and in vice versa so we need opportunities to mess up. If i mess up once and he takes me out with one combo i have learned nothing other than block a lot and pray to jeebus. Honestly the way i see it is i hope eventually they make it so that once you used a special move you cant use it for a few seconds so that you can stop spammers, make you think before throwing a special move, and prevent these super long combos. But thats just my onion
I'm surprised that Max didn't mention Skullgirls - combos in that game can get very long and absurdly complicated, especially when factoring in assists and resets. The difference between SG and, say, McC2, though, is that the game is actually designed around it.
I think there should be a combo type character.
like I character who has low damage per hit but can pull off a 13 hit combo with precise spacing and timing, where as the other types of characters average about a 5 hit combo.
Thatd be super interesting.
It would be, but it would be unfair though.
Kaskha64 1:56 he talks about this.
And it isn't so unfair if you balance it with meter gained and combo breakers etc. etc...
Almost every time developers put in a character who has an option that surpasses those of other characters, even though it'll be made purposefully difficult, it almost always ends up making that character overpowered.
Try Blaze Blue and you'll get just that! :-) Hakumen has short combo's but is super powerful, whereas Ragna can pull off some crazy long combo's but is much weaker. There's a few characters like Hakumen in BB too.
AirLancer Sounds like devs need to get gud then
I think there's room for a short combo high damage game BUT it has to be in the right package. Fightings are a hard genre to get into AND there's no real arcade scene now where people can ask for help in a personal way. The barrier to entry needs to be lowered but at the same time, not compromise what makes fighting games competitive.
Guilty Gear Xrd will have short damaging combo.....but thats if you care to play it.
***** Well in general the GG series at least IMO have short combos that are damaging and can be stylish as well.
***** I think that GG has the ability to have long combos, but there is quite an execution barrier they make you overcome in order to do it. In that sense, I think it actually makes it more impressive overall to see a longish combo in that game since you know they probably had to work it out.
***** GG series really has the best of both worlds depending one the character you play, some have short powerful whereas some have long combos/infinities, although they are much harder to pull off in a competitive enviroment.
+HYDEgaming1 HEAR HEAR!!
honestly it depends on the character, such as blazblue in Terumi's case where getting high combo with him is easy. I honestly thing high combos are all dependent on the character and if that specific character is an advanced character or a beginner character
Don't care just as long as it's not like MVC3 where you can easily kill or touch of death most of the cast.
Here's the thing I think should be discussed about rather than just the simple topic of "Are fg combos too long?", a deeper question would be what's more satisfying, combo execution or the proceeding mix-up after a combo has ended.
The reason I loved 3S so much was because combos were short, still could be dropped due to execution, but more times than not, it was more about the mix-up afterwards or setting up the perfect range for your character. That's why I much prefer to see vortex then to see 1 touch kill combos, because at least the opponent has the opportunity to play and I think a constantly flow of back and forth gameplay is more fun then 1P combo practice.
I'm not a fan of long combos. I consider them an arbitrary "skill" barrier that really just acts as a barrier toward time investment, rather than skills like spacing, mind games, predicting, and so on, the real elements of skill in the genre. Anyone could learn these combos if they sat around practicing for hours on end, days or weeks at a time depending on how new you are to the genre itself, but not everyone has that kind of time to dedicate to a single game.
Besides, it's especially a barrier toward new players. A new player's gonna get their ass kicked by someone who knows what they're doing either way, but in a game with short combos they're likely gonna say "I could win if I just reacted a little faster, blocked that one attack, etc." at least more so than if they were beaten down by a player who destroyed them with a practically never ending combo. It's not only frustrating, it's demoralizing; someone who's struggling with the quarter circle motion could never hope to pull that kind of stuff off. It illustrates clearly just how far down on the totem pole they are, and makes the process of competing feel all the more daunting and insurmountable. The next time they want to pick up a fighter, that's the feeling they're going to remember. I think Fighting games could grow, rather than stay some self serving niche if their combo systems were just more accessible.
In Mortal Kombat, special moves are a supplement to the actual melee. Hit-Hit-Special is not as complex as delivering combos in MK. However, Injustice is a good middle ground between SF type players and MK type players.
Just depends on the game.
I would really like more "combos of combos" type games like you mentioned instead of a focus on long, drawn out single combos. It's one of the reasons I liked SF4 at all was because I could get in and feel like I could put up a fight without memorizing stupid long combos.
1 v 1 needs to have balanced combos.
Team based games need long combos.
If people were playing SF4 and you could ToD that would be a severe issue but in team based games that isn't. You kill the point character and the next one comes in. People dislike combos in games like UMVC3 for two primary reasons: they don't like being punished for bad play and they cannot ToD themselves leading to a perceived injustice.
***** Yes, and those characters would surely get their combos nerfed if they were common place. Chun-Li would be unstoppable in AE if her links were easy.
I like to see both extremes. Watching Hulk *SMASH* everything can generate some hype, and watching someone do a fancy Dante, or even someone in the cast no one really uses, like Chris, combos is really satisfying. Unless you are the one who it's being done on...
Long combos are a pain that should be addressed and God they're annoying when combo breakers are absent. KI, TvC, MK9, BB and P4A have combo breakers. Being hard or easy to do doesn't matter, it's being hard to endure and/or get out that is the major problem.
Add the Mega Crash to UMvC3... and players would probably think twice before showing off with one-touch kill combos.
KI has breakers and counters. Guess what? The game doesn't get less exciting because of it. In fact, it gets unpredictable that for ONCE, you don't know who will win just by looking of the character select screen.
If UMvC3 had a combo breaker of some kind, I would go back and start playing it again.
Soundwave Funny that's it's the ONLY mecanic that wasn't ported from TvC ¬_¬;
MrJechgo That's why I rather play TvC.
I don't mind long combos in games such as Killer Instinct 2013 and Skullgirls, because they give you ways to break out of the combos you get stuck in. So, yeah, if there's a system like the combo/counter breakers or the Infinity Breaker, I'm cool with long combos.
Long combos are perhaps the most boring thing ever.
They're only cool *once*, then they're just like listening to a joke that got old. They're repetitive and boring. Because most character have suggested, B&B combos and any other combo just isn't as viable for some reason or another.
This is 99% of the reason why I stopped playing MvC3. If I saw one more Doom B&B, one more Wesker B&B or one more Vergil B&B, whatever, I would have probably killed myself.
It's not "Swag", it's not cool, it's garbage. Boring, repetitive garbage.
I more or less agree, my big problem is being unable to do anything once you get combo'ed and the fact of how much dmg is related into the Marvel 3 game :/ the 1-2 hit combo=dead routine is so counter intuitive to a fun match-up. It' more or less a race to who can get touched first.
Nick Santillo Oh, yeah. I hate that too.
I paid for the game, but other people get to play it for me. Fuck that nonsense.
Honestly we need a game that redoes 3rd strike because I think that was the pinnacle of fighting games. The game was kind of hard, had mechanics that rewards the players skill like the parry, Short but damaging combos(except urien), and actually had one of the best mind games on the the market.
i personally never enjoyed 3rd strike parrying was way to easy. making it defensive
+Raging karma only if they rebalance it and put parry on a button instead of pressing forward or down
Well games with shorter combo's, like SF4 and 3rd Strike, are definetely more fun to watch. And Marvel 3 and Killer Instinct not as much in my opinion. And I like Injustice's combo system.
For me, longer combos usually serve to guarantee that my skill ceiling is a lot lower than it otherwise would be in any given game because my dexterity just isn't there when it comes to long or difficult combos. I mean I enjoy doing combos to a degree, but at some point it just becomes an obstacle to me enjoying the game. The more time I have to spend in training mode trying to max out my damage output rather than focusing on the part of fighting games that draws me to them, the less I like that game.
Fighting games as a whole need to get a lot simpler. As much as it sucks, us gamers are getting older. We don't don't have the time to put in the work to learn crazy combos and highly technical mechanics anymore. It sucks when you can barely enjoy a new fighting game these days just because the skill barrier is so high.
Gamers can't play a large variety of fighters these days due to how much is required to be known to not get slaughtered. This is counter-productive the genre as a whole. A player can pick up any game of any other genre and have down the mechanics within the first hour of play. Fighting games are the only genre that demands hours in practice mode just to play competently.
For the sake of the future of the genre, this can't last. If this genre fails to attract new players again, we could see another fighting game recession like before Street Fighter 4 came out. The guys showing up to EVO can't sustain fighting games forever, and it's a slow death if developers only make fighting games with them in mind. A new generation must taste salt!
***** Younger kids haven't been the primary audience of most fighting games in a long time. Why do you think SFIV sold itself as being "A new SFII!" I doubt the previous generation cares that SFIV is like SFII.
I agree but cancels should stay in for those who want to get on high level. knowing how to transition from an HP to a DM via eating frames should be something that should be possible, no matter how simple a game gets.
Finally. After watching all the videos and stuff, finally a person that gets it.
I think that they should have ridiculously steep difficulty curves despite being longer. This way the first few hits of a combo or short combos are relatively easy to execute and deal good damage, but the input window decreases over time until continuing the combo past a certain point comes down to non-bufferable one frame links.
I also think that the person being hit should be able to do something while in disadvantage to keep the person doing the combo guessing. I actually quite like Smash's "DI" or directional input system which allows the person being hit to slightly change the direction they move in. It changes what move combos often flow into and requires being able to read the opponent's DI to get long, punishing strings.