Ok guys, but with all due respect. How are you not prepared for diversity at this point. It’s a little ridiculous to not have a well thought out plan when entering a tournament.
On top of the fact that any average player should expect a lot of diversity after a new set gets released, especially in this particular case where the previous dominant decks (Tears and Kashtira) just invalidated a lot of otherwise viable decks.
With all due respect how are you not prepared for tier 0? It's literally 1 strategy to prepare for. It's a little ridiculous to not have a half competent plan when entering a tournament.
Tl;dr on this entire discourse: Pros of Tier 0/0.5 formats: - Easier to prepare and tech for - Higher skill expression - Lower skill ceiling since there is a limited card pool in play Cons: - Games are borderline unwatchable - Card market is insane, to a point where budget players are priced out of the game entirely - The game essentially becomes "play this $600 deck or don't bother competing" Pros of diverse formats: - More deck and tech options across the board for both budget and high end players - Higher creative expression and playstyle variations - Lower skill floor, but a much higher skill ceiling - The sheer and utter excitement from watching Jeff Leonard top with Exodia Cons: - Losing to variance - Much harder to prepare for considering the different techs and matchup spreads - Pak complains on twitter Frankly, I know which one I prefer, and it's not Tear format. Which way, Yugioh Player?
Funnily I think you’ve hit in the divide exactly with your last point. Casual and semi-competitive players heard video after video trying to tell them tear is good actually while the deck was boring or frustrating the pants off them and now once we are finally free from being powergated out of winning this format we are told it’s bad when that is far from what many are feeling. Both sides have fair points. And I don’t think any of Pak, Jesse or Josh are actually trying to say tier 0 is the best format here, but I still prefer this over either Tear or Kash formats personally.
No, i just would not insert additional zelda background music, when there already is music in jesses Video, now you hear 2 different music tracks at the same time, wich sounds terrible@@MOORE4U2
I think this needs to be said: as a card game, no amount of preparation or work will guarantee anyone doing well due to the luck-based nature of card games. You could make risky decisions and have it pay off to be seen as the greatest Yugioh Genius for that time or have it blow up in your face like an overstuffed heated weiner. All in all, there is always a risk factor to consider due to circumstances out of your control. I'd say that the risk factor is higher the more diverse the format, but even in less diverse formats there will always be feel-bad moments resulting from bad luck. It's unavoidable
I’d disagree. There’s a reason why you always see the same names topping at these tournaments. Yes there’s luck in regard to simply having to draw cards out of a pile. But there’s a big difference between how consistent your deck is and, literally, playing rock-paper-scissors with which deck you could possibly get seated against because that one random deck, or card, that happens to completely counter yours is viable in the format.
@@EvilShadex101 The reason you see the same names top often because they have the time to prep and go to all the events. Not to say they're aren't good, but there's a small group of people who take it so seriously, spend the money (or are sponsored) and travel to every YCS. Has nothing to do with what the format is or not, as Josh as eluded to before when he said "pro" players are going to play regardless
@@LowFlyingHawk are you saying someone who puts in the time, effort, and money shouldn’t be able to consistently top? This is true for, basically, everything. I don’t see the reason for pointing this out. My argument is that; the fact that you always see the same names is because the game isn’t as luck based as OP is trying to present it. Otherwise the amount of effort you put in wouldn’t, consistently, matter.
A Player's true skill is revealed from weighing the odds on risk and reward and skillfully navigating the odds. If all you know are the top three competing meta decks and you win using one of them, you're not a good Yugioh player, you're a lucky Yugioh player who understands a very narrow range of decks. If you can win in a diverse format, you're actually a good Yugioh player because that requires far more skill than just knowing how to beat three decks you're going to face 92% of the time.
I think a part of the issue is tech cards/ non-engine that feel so variable impact from deck to decks ton of cards that are like 10/10 into some decks and 0/10 into others. Like so many cards are just dead into Purrely and then stuff like d barrier or Kaijus or Herald of the Abyss just beat it into the sun, while being dead or bad into others it feels really bad you can't find like an options that's like 6-7/10 into almost everything.
thats what was so nice about kash format. we all played books and ash and imperm and fenrir because they were all Pretty Good into everything, no tech option in my deck felt like dogshit against anything.
@@GuessWhatHappened1 I feel that if you get Thrusted for the out, it feels significantly less awful than just getting smashed by them hard drawing the one-of. You get one monster effect activation before they can add it to their grip. Your opponent now has to sacrifice one of their resources and it creates an interesting dynamic. If you're the turn player, what are you going to try to give up to enable access to your Thrust? Do you blindly add Herald when they have set backrow, which could be a Purelyly to deny the Herald? Do you instead add extension to play through their board rather than search for an immediate out? If you're not the turn player, do you try to make your monster's effect as impactful as possible? If you have one sleepy memory under your Noir, is the risk of Thrust worth one draw? Will you hold it because they are playing as though they have Thrust and want to Tactics for a +2 since they already have an out in hand? If you have Herald in hand, you usually just send it since it's not quick. If they have a counter, they have a counter. If they don't, you'll probably win. It's just not that interesting and it feels pretty sacky because there is very little involvement of in game decision making with your opponent.
@@bagorngo I really dont like the talk of how cards make you feel. It sounds too emotional. We dont even know each others ratios. But regardless thrust is often live on purley the goal is to get 5 under noir that comes with risk.
I don’t get the complaint for the herald of the abyss hard draw. Everyone who tested for the event is going to have out(s) for purrely. Purrely doesn’t have a lp card for time and they play long games, so time will always be an issue. That’s a preparation issue IMO
Pak was being a cry baby. Thats the only reason why most people are saying this. Not to mention dude wanted a sloved format before it offically started 😂
In fact you don't need any non-engine card to play around Herald of the Abyss. Purrely can just save 1 spell to summon the little black cat when opponent use Herald abyss.
Not many people like towers decks in diverse formats. It’s actually the same reason as mystic mine: Mystic Mine required main deck backrow removal, and that’s okay, but sucks against literally every other matchup if most decks are monster spam and the backrow removal does minimal against them. It’s a 50/50 on if you’re maining enough backrow removal to handle the situation. Same thing with purrely. You have to have herald of the abyss, kaijus, etc. or you’re gonna have an extremely hard time. Those cards are just not good in other matchups. If it was a purrely t0 format, awesome, people will main kaijus. Since it’s not though, it’s pure luck whether you face purrely or the other top decks. And if you draw those other cards like herald of the abyss etc. against non-purrely decks you’re going to have a bad time. So you put those in the side deck and have to accept your game 1 against purrely has to be extremely scuffed to have a chance in a non-purrely dominated format. Pure tournament luck of your opponents deck puts you in a 50/50. Not even in game luck which kinda sucks.
I usually don't mind it, but the background music is so distracting in this video. It's literally 3 sources of audio playing at the same time, unwatchable for me 😔
It's usually the same in every reaction video, but Jesse's sound was low and Josh turned his down to match it but I think the music wasn't tuned down to match that
28:15 exactly my point. Nice to see josh admit it as well. Sure diverse wont be prefered by super competitive players who playtest a lot and always enter tournament to win, but most playerbase like it, and its better for YGO in general. So it is what it is, pros just need to adapt as well as they can and keep enter YCS. Its not like pros will quit coz diverse format or anything, they will still playing. Sure few ppl like pak might not play but most other will. Ycs will still have lot players entering. And maybe come up with insane tech to actually beat the diverse format. Thats part that make YGO exciting.
Pak being pissed he didn't win the entire championship, despite winning multiple others and obvious tops, gives off the same vibes as Koreans crying because they lost to EU/NA in League. Just funny to look at.
Yugioh needs Josh as our voice for fixing the different opinions' attacking, like Jeeshhh, let them talk and respectfully disagree.. We're not a bunch of Kaiba irl
Couldn't agree more, this community, at least online, is not very good at identifying the difference between opinions and facts. Plus the toxic stuff like calling people "crybabies", "meta sheep", etc... That stuff is just not productive for this discussion.
Nah, some people need to be told that they are acting childish AF. PAK was acting like a baby because he 'drowned in pools' and complains about the format where, if he was Rando Mc No name, he would get told to stop crying and try their best next time.
Pro players just want it there way or no way. They want us to respect their opinion or see their point of view. But don’t wanna see our point of view. I’m tired of the same dudes topping. I will argue it takes more skill in a diverse format than tier zero. You basically have to know a lot about the game and each deck how they operate. Which makes it more fun seeing things you don’t normally see.
I think a major factor that we dont consider is the knowledge needed for each format. In Edisons the cards are simple to understand and read, the combos are very linear, minimal actions committed. Today, even control decks are sudo combo decks. So the amount of understanding of each deck, combos, were to handtrap, whats their potential endboard etc comes into play. How many people dont know the text or combos for like Rikka, Tear, Mannadium. This why people also hate rogue decks, because it means a matchup were you dont know your opponnets strategy, youll gonna spend half the game reading the cards and have no clue how to play vs them.
YGO has so many different ways to play through all the different archetypes and gimmicks that exist. This leads to people having different perspectives on how the game should be (omni negate boards, combo solitaire). I honestly blame it on Konami for designing so many different types of cards/decks that play in different ways and a lot of them requiring different counterplays or specific cards to stop. Sure, it leads to some really cool and fun interaction, but they have also opened the path to some degenerate shit that should never exist in a card game (my opinion), which has made balancing and sometimes trying to find an out impossible - you just get screwed by a bad hand or match up you were dealt. Because of these factors, YGO is just one of those games I can see competitively. If you want to be competitive in a fair, skill based environment, there are other games out there.
Feeling that if you put in enough work you get to win is feeling entitled to win. Part of this game is sometimes you just draw bad, if you don't like variance in games than card games aren't for you, go play chess.
Being able to solve a diverse format takes a completely different skillset than being able to win a solved format. I 100% get what Josh is saying here, but putting in a lot of work to prepare for the tournament is only part of what a diverse format requires. Obviously, I don't know specifically what other people are doing to prepare, but if they're preparing in the same way that they would for a solved format, then it doesn't really matter how much they do.
Agree, deck building for solved format means you are building a deck with an expected match up, also you can make a meta calls deck which no one prepare for…. But building a deck with diverse format, means there are a lot of factors need to be considered because so many varieties of match up, also konami as a company can attract many new players for playing yugioh, because there is no restriction for new players to follow tier zero deck in order to win, they just need to collect the board breaker staples and handtraps in order to compete.. collect board breaker and handtrap staples means another profit for company…
The number of competitive decks in a format has nothing to do with whether a format is solved or not. A solved format simply means the deck matchups are known and are unchanging.
Last nats was “diverse” but they did all the same thing. Every deck locked you out of the game and a lot of those decks literally just did scythe - baronne with back row. You can’t play unless you played floo which did the same thing via barrier statue.
@@dai-belizariusz3087 It was beyond just punk lmao. branded definately played that way, You just scythe lock with a trap card instead. It was the same shit different flavor. Swordsoul drew a bunch of cards and put rivaly up.
@@Sparda51Either you realize but didn't point it out of you simply didn't understand what you said. They all did what? Floodgates, they all played floodgates.
Then why Pak didnt choose the safest choice that is rescue ace? If he wasnt sure about the format in the first place? I feel like he made a very brave decision and it didnt pay off, even him didnt want to partecipate (he know before even the tournament start). I still think Pak got unlucky with the swiss round pairing and losing to 1 copy card in the deck it happen also in other format that someone lose bacause of it. He was unlucky with his brave decsion to go for purely. To me feel like he got so emotional to posting that on twitter because he was so mad about it, after that preparation and testing, this is understandable i think everyone would be mad about that. Its true prepare in a diverse format is hard but doesnt mean the format is bad because of it, just saying.
Pretty good point about decks requiring to many bricks. It was why my number one enemy when I was playing Branded wasn’t Ash, it was polymerisation, Tragedy, Ad Lib, Dark Magician and all the other bloody bricks you can put in that deck 😂
Preparation half the battle. Being able to think ahead and plan out which decks are big threats for you is just as important as being able to think up combo lines on your feat. So yes, it is a skill.
Great video Josh, I really appreciate the nuance take and the message of hearing and respecting others opinions on the game. I don’t play Yu-Gi-Oh anymore as I found it the most uninteresting, and worst in terms of consumer practices, of all the TCG I played, but I still like to keep up with it by watching yours and others videos. My two cents on this topic is that it really comes down to a fundamental issue of having little to no time to counter play an opponent as most of the interactions that matter in a game take place very early (first two turns usually), and how resilient newer archetypes are nowadays. I think this makes it frustrating to more high level players as they can’t be prepared for everything, some options are great against some decks and dead draw against others, and there is no backup strategy besides hopping for a brick from your opponent. On the other hand I see it as being fun for a more casual player to be able to enter a tournament and know that there is a good chance that the deck they enjoy won't be stopped in its tracks before it even starts most of the time.
15:10 thank you 😂😂 The herald of abyss could happen regardless of format. This why people saying pak a cry baby. 😂 talking about diversity can make a format bad, yet people were prepared, you just werent
Strange arguments when everyone’s kinda like… “I dont want to play awkward 1 ofs” and “ban prosperity” Prosperity literally circumvents this problem by itself.
How people can respect them when they throw the unrespectable behaviour first? . But personally, this format is better than the format where you can win if you have enough money to optimize your deck with strong dominant META decks, and better than the format where you can beat your opponent after you randomly draw the counter card that you add it your deck from your side deck 1s ago. And because there are a lot playable decks here, according to theory supply and demnd, the card's price might be lower in the future because the demand of the cards not centered to a certain deck or support around it.
That's the thing that frustrated me, Pak is throwing shade and when he actually gets pushback the community is suddenly toxic. Side note very based pfp 😭😭😭💢
Pro players just want it there way or no way. They want us to respect their opinion or see their point of view. But don’t wanna see our point of view. I’m tired of the same dudes topping. I will argue it takes more skill in a diverse format than tier zero. You basically have to know a lot about the game and each deck how they operate. Which makes it more fun seeing things you don’t normally see.
This is an hour long video talking about how professional card game players don't like a balanced format cause they forgot the fundamentals of the card game they say they like playing. Preparing a deck and side deck to only counter 3 play styles should never have been considered "competitive builds". To compare to fighting games it's like pros miss the days of Akuma mirrors only in early SF (before he was banned or any other character was buffed) now they're complaining there's no way to prepare to fight the whole roster, which you should be capable of practicing since you spend the most time playing. You can't ever adapt to everything but your play style should be more flexible than "this only works against 3 relevant strategies" at an event of 100+ people
Josh one thing about the crybabies. PAK is literally emotional and cries. He complains about a random card in a deck yet herald of the abyss is a played card currently because purrely is second most representated deck. How can you blame people not netdecking enough so he knows what he can play around. Also he literally played against meta decks. VS, tear, dlink. Then he posts "worst format ive ever played" I mean wtf thats literally crybaby right there!!! I agree that we should be nice and resonable with each other which goes for general human Interaction. That being said noone wants to play the same fucking deck all day long. You dont.
@@GG_Nowa explain what “this” emotion is. He said he doesn’t like the format and was disappointed that he didn’t top after putting in the work. “Over a children’s card game” is what people say when they don’t have anything to say about the subject.
@@eleonarcrimson858 i have no problem with him being emotional. Also i dont see the point of being emotional as a strictly non masculine thing. Masculine emotions are usually communicated differently than those from females. That being said, thats not the point. He has influence and started a whole debate because he lost and didnt keep his cool. So he turned to social media "cry" about the game to feel better when all the sheeps Go "yeah pak that was so mean that 1 player played herold of the abyss, although he probably played thrust along side it to counter PURRELY". In the end peoples reaction was mostly the opposite and now his streamer friends over analyze this statement which Pak most likely just threw out there out of pure Frustration. Its a dumb move 100%. If you have some kind of influence you have to watch what you say or live with the consequences (e.g. politicians). In that sense his whole behaviour was immature.
@@Corey91666 no the discussions about this format was relevant even before him tweeting about it. He made a video about the format before even the tournament started.
@@BanditTools I never said it was. I'm saying complaining about variance is acceptable since it obviously CAN and HAS been at an extreme level. The argument is whether or not it is. But to say that people shouldn't complain about variance in card games at all is just braindead and your initial point lol
@@UnhappyPensFan Couldn't care about your argument here but complaining about variance in a game that is almost completely variance based sounds more braindead to me. It's like complaining why does water make things wet???
X-2 cut thing is done in unofficial Pokemon tournaments before during pandemic which is mostly done Online. Some events back then were quite big, with hundreds of participants. Official Pokemon tournaments still used the regular swiss round system.
@@eleonarcrimson858 i mean, he's not wrong, MD qualifier is much harsher than TCG. BO 1 basically mean your deck need to cover a lot of variance which the pros pretty much complain about
@@jps_user20 Harsher in a different way. There's a lot more variance in MD because of the Bo1 nature so losses outside of the control of players happen more often, but every loss means significantly less than in tournaments. You can reach the top of DC with a 68% winrate. The actual difficulty from DC comes from the poopsocking nature of it. With TCG tournaments, a 68% winrate would mean that, on average, you lose 24% of your Bo3 matches. That generally puts you at making day 2, but not exceeding top 64/128. Each individual match is worth significantly more, so variance has a profoundly greater impact.
@@Ragnarok540 I do? haha I was refering to the thumbnail but am since aware the context in the actual video is completely different, that's what I get for taking the bait 😂😂
I don't get one thing: if it's more difficult to got prepared for an event, isn't it better for a pro player? Isn't it better for the more skilled ones? 'Cause that way the best ones has the chance to be better than the others. If the difficulty cap is too low, it's more difficult to prove one's skill
Sometimes there's just no way for a single archetype to cover everything, I miss the times were tier 1 decks were like a swiss knife, as long as you played perfectly you could answer anything, but for that the game needs to last at least 5 turns per player.
It's where the difficulty is that matters. The problem with diverse formats is that you could prepare for let's say the top 3 decks, spending 100 hours prepping, then NEVER play a single one in the event. Essentially all the work you put it in doesn't matter and you at the same level of prep now as a guy that put zero prep in. That's where Pak's frustration was in his tweets. It feels like all the work preparing doesn't matter.
Facts, so much diversity, and feel like u can win againts all decks if u build good deck and play properly. Game slow enough and powerlvl way lower than modern YGO that u can play quite many turns, trade 1 for 1 advantages, etc. No decks can lock u from playing turn 1 like modern YGO, and u feel like ure playing in every matches. Floodgates also less good there coz everyone running backrow removals and game slow enough to hope draw em.
Why do people seem to hate diverse formats but love EDISON, were its very diverse with multiple great decks. Is it because its attracting the casual playerbase rather than the LCS competitors?
Some nostalgia. Also part of why edison great is diversity in slower, less powerlvl YGO is great. Edison lets u play with lot different decks and most looks viable. Mosly due low power ceiling that no one doing toxic turn 1 combo board that u feel need specifically stop em or lose. Floodgates also exist but less a problem there cozzp everyone playing backrow removals and game slow enough to hope u draw it. As long u have ood deckbuilding and play good, feel like u can defeat any deck, at least most that are not ur bad matchup or something.
@@invertbrid still dosent explain why that diversity is celebrated while current meta is put down. We dont even have "degen" negate decks that are successful in the meta. If I had to bet its because Edison is for fun so people dont take it as serious, yet people still say it was an enjoyable format. The powerlevel of those decks are so low that there is little difference between the best and 5th best deck while today the difference between Rescue Ace and Sky striker for example are night and day. But I feel this could make people hate the format even more since it measn you have more strategies to account for. But maybe there were so few mechanics, card pool etc that all those strategies were so linear it didnt matter.
@invertbrid Honestly I think a major factor that we dont consider is the knowledge needed for each format. In Edisons the cards are simple to understand and read, the combos are very linear, minimal actions committed. Today, even control decks are sudo combo decks. So the amount of understanding of each deck, combos, were to handtrap, whats their potential endboard etc comes into play. How many people dont know the text or combos for like Rikka, Tear, Mannadium. This why people have rogue decks, because it means a matchup were you dont know your opponnets strategy, youll gonna spend half the game reading the cards and have no clue how to play vs them.
@@MannyB29 its more of speed and powerlvl of modern deck like i said. U can play good and dont feel like losing turn 1 most of the time if u play older formats like edison where game is slow and low powerlvl. Thus decks feel less oppresive, tho there is still some decks considered meta. The powerlvl is indeed low in a good way so every deck can have chance to win, if they draw good staples, and play good / making right call / predicting ur opp right. Game can last more than 5 turns lot of times, u can have lot back and forth interaction, grind game, trading 1 for 1, predicting opp next 2-3 turns, etc. Lot strategies involved yea, thats the beauty of older YGO also. But yes it being nostalgia factor and unsolved format also play part, u can still find new tech and decks now compared to back then.
@@MannyB29 well yea in general, lot players still like simpler YGO. Tho GOAT feels too linesr, slow and boring for some. Its also pretty solved. Thats why edison gained more popularity. More speed than GOAT, more diversity, and more playstyle.
27:01 Could Rescue-Ace really ever be Tier 0? We have Thrust now and all backrow blowout cards are Normal Spells. Seems a bit like the Branded situation you elaborated on a while ago. (Still waiting for Branded's in-archetype way to handle backrow.)
You made the point that the overwhelming majority enjoys diversity, which is true, but the problem is pro players (players who make money through yugioh content and performance), have an oversized voice among casuals, and so it brings down the community as a whole when the pros rant on the format incessantly
OK genuine question, if one doesnt actually play/experience the meta by being a casual, how much of their opinion on said meta are generally accurate? Like many make fun of yugioboomers for not giving modern yugioh a proper try but complaining about it anyways, yet I don't see a big difference between the yugiboomers and these "casual competitive" players in all honesty. Sure it's easier to just pin "anime fan" to the boomers, but the casual competitives are practically doing the same thing just with "their pet deck"/random jank instead. And if one is casual anyway why does the meta matter to them? If they are casual like they say, then embrace the casual mentality, play ones pet deck, drop the notion of winning/losing, stop caring about the meta, fuck around if they want, proxy if they are only playing with their friends for all i care, and just have as much fun a possible. Put their actions where their mouth is. The casual competitive that bash on yugiboomers feel like borderline hypocrites in all honesty. Now, I will say that I am technically a casual competitive. However, I actually give compassion to newer/returning players and (importantly) don't try to overstep by complaining about the meta (or praising it for that matter) when I honestly don't have that good of a grasp on it.
Maybe part of it is that audiences and players have much different perspectives on what makes a format good. Players want to see the best person win, so if everyone knows the meta it will boil down to skill and a little luck. But audiences love when it's diverse, when decks are coming out of nowhere or pulling upsets, so it's probably really hard for both sides of the tournaments to really agree on what is happening 🤣
On behalten of the bad to draw one ofs i think tri made it really good by having a draw and return on ferrijet. It can salvage ur dead cards like Apex in the lyrilusc build.
I don't think you understand "One guy'd" in twitch chat terms. it's not about it needing to be said but it's a single comment that kind of derails the discussion and forces you to rant about that comment which you did do. in every situation someone get's "one guy'd" it needed to be said but instead of just casually responding to it like you do with all the other comments you fixate on it. I just don't understand how Tear 0 format was "the most skill intensive format" but not a format where there are a wide array of decks that all essentially have their own win con that isn't super generic (like POTE format where every non tier 1/BASED deck was just scythe lock turbo). it definitely takes more time and skill to learn all these different matchups oppose to just a mirror where you are hoping you mill good, your opponent didn't dweller or stun you, and sequence your chain links correctly. it's funny Pak complains about the "1000 different decks" when he played against decks he should 100% be familiar with and tested against D-link a constant in the last few formats, VS a community favorite for some reason with a few tops, and 2 Tears the deck everyone is preparing for.
I think its a really cool, interesting perspective that tier zero formats and diverse formats can both be healthy and fun. I tend to prefer a diverse meta because my skillset in game bends better against them and I, like any honest person, tend to have more fun when I'm doing halfway decent, but I also actually had a lot of fun during D Ruler format back in the day and I loved watching games during Tear format. I dont think I had ever put a lot of thought into tier zero v. diversity as a poijt of discussion too much before this conversation. 😊
It is absolutely unbearable seeing the chat constantly jump to absurd/irrelevant conclusions that either straight up misrepresent or ignore the primary point being discussed. How do so many people seem to be incapable of understanding a basic, nuanced discussion? I can’t even imagine having to engage with this shit on a regular basis.
The editing is not good this time - it's hard to focus on the stuff that Jesse says in the video when the Zelda background music is on the same volume. Quite annoying. :/
The more I think about it. Power creep and 1 turn ftk's are ruining yugioh. At this stage, if they don't scale back the power of these decks that end the game turn 1. I think yugioh has a good chance of dying off slowly. "Draw the out" wouldn't be an issue nor cracking back and winning turn 2 shouldn't be a thing. Interactions that don't just completely obliterate every turn would be refreshing and be way better for the game
Here's the main issue with the game right now: [insert oversimplified statement about the game that is made just for the sake of oversimplification and doesn't take into account different pov's]
This is a problem caused by Konami. The consequence of allowing a walking macro cosmos floodgate on legs (aka kashtira ariseheart) Dont defend that card Criticize Konami for allowing it to enter the game because doing so led to these several decks being overshadowed. Now, its time to address the consequences of your actions Konami. How will you use the ban list. Either lean towards using it a a method to "balance" or continue to use it as a method to increase profits.
@e-tan3911 how long did Kash exists in the tcg. What did that do to the meta? Why are so many decks now existing? Kash had consequences to the meta. We are seeing that now.
@@chuchojuarez95 1. Kash existed for 7 months. The usual time that konami will allow a deck to exist in a meta before they try to rotate it out. 2. It didn't "do" anything to the meta, since Tear was hit out of existence before Kash even became a viable deck. It basically entered a completely blank format, not much to argue there except hypotheticals. 3. Why are there so many meta decks now? There are 4 at most and a bunch of rogue decks. The format is unsolved and people want to test what decks will be good. It usually takes about 2-3 weeks after a set releases for the meta to shape up. Saying Kash "had consequences" doesn't mean anything? Like yeah, the deck existed, it impacted the meta. It is now irrelevant, so it's impact is gone. Okay. Same with literally any other deck ever. Now what?
Idk the game is just supposed to be fun lol you can’t prepare for everything so why worry about it? Just get one with the game, have fun, and just learn what’s out there.
Its a little surreal. Josh and Jesse are 2 of the nicest players the competitive scene has ever seen. Then you have have Pak, Trif and Farfa who are so toxic you cant explain why you dislike them without being toxic yourself.
I like Pak but he just went on a baby cry ass rant . And the fact that in his vid he said he wasn’t doing the Predaplant stuff to upscale the cards is a cop out cause there been a bunch of other yugi comtent creators he’s cool with that have said it’s true that he was doing that
Trif is a genuinely nice guy who is very supportive and appreciative of his friends and promotes his viewers making healthy IRL choices and having self confidence. Nothing wrong with playing into an exaggerated meme at the same time
I think one angle when talking about the issue with tear 0 formats is that it devalues all the other cards. When you have a best deck that anyone can play, it makes all the other cards and the excitement around new archetypes that can't compete just fall away. From a casual and collector side of it to your zero formats and even cards that are broken. Make the more common experience of people just picking up in cards and playing seem a lot less valuable. I think that if Konami wants to keep selling a lot of cards and keep getting new players interested, having a lot of new different diverse formats leads to more people finding a deck that they can like the style of like the art of and like the gameplay. I think that the way unchained rescues and even cash play all exemplify this.
@@ThunderflySc2 yup. It gives a new way to play that "stops your opponent from playing" and while it is frustrating, it's also really cool way to do it vs a backrow of floodgates.
The Zelda music blasting and overpowering the video madw this series unwatchable and i generally enjoy your cintent very much so this was upsetting . 💀
The Problem with play in topcut is. Now you are not the guys thats " oh man im 34th soo close to top 32 im angy" but you are the guy thats "oh man im 31th instead of 30th so now i will have to play another round to even top, im angy"
Super diverse... 30% Rescue Ace tops. I don't think it's diverse, just unsolved. People use the word diverse but the format still has options you just have to call the meta right. 8 Competitive decks is currently completely fine, also Tear should not he played but people want to play Tearlament
I honestly think Pak was just being salty as all of his complaints were invalidated by his YCS top with infernobles in the same format he said he hated. Bro is just a sore loser.
metas mit sovielen verschiedenen decks ist das beste meta überhaupt da man einfsach nicht runde für runde gegen den selben schrott spielt...sondern einfach jedes match was anderes haben kann und das ist doch geil...ohhhh ich kann man side nicht anpassen bullshit...einfach bullshit...wer rumheult weil es zu viele decks sind hat sie meiner meinung nicht alle...es gibt nichts besseres und genau da zeigt sich ob man n guter player ist oder nicht da man halt auch mal auf skill setzen muss um zu gewinnen
less diversity = higher skill still baffle me. How come a game like Smash Ultimate, LoL, Dota 2 ... always have 20+ (usually even more not counting minute variations, match ups, combinations) viable character at a time consider competitive and skillful and yugioh player cry like a baby when it only around 10 or so decks around.
Ok, have you actually thought about what you type before you hit sent? Just take dota for example, a tournament game has 7 bans each side and 5 picks, that's 24 heroes that will be interacted with at a bare minimum. Also individual hero matchups are nowhere as deep as deck matchups in yugioh (or fighting games for that matter but i digress), the depth are emphasized from different perspectives (mobas it's about the small permutation in comps and understanding how that changes the game flow as a whole using overarching gamesense. yugioh literally every deck functions different and requires you to not only read every card, know their combos/permutations, and understand all points of interaction your deck has with theirs). Beyond that, you get to see what your opponent picks and respond in draft, which is just not possible in yugioh. Plus it's not like "oh no part of the shop gets locked off due to draft reasons" ever happens in dota while your options are very much limited by your deck choice after submitting in yugioh. Oh and need I remind you that dota's diversity stems from the philosophy of "hard counters" and imagine just being forced to sit through a game where your opp last picked a hard counter and you had no bans to stop it + couldn't pick it through your team's picks, VERY FUN it must be :). And in regards to smash, do you mean melee or ultimate? because melee you only really have around 7 actually decent chars and it's kind of funny because melee folks bash ultimate's roster to be too wide, and ultimate's systems makes individual matchups much less technical/deep. Also steve and before that pyra and mythra so.....
@@duelme1234 lol you said dota/ lol match up is not as deep as yugioh. Dude get a reality check, those also have team comp, items, time/ map location dependent which guess is too few variables. And I obviously refer to ultimate why the hell would I bring up mele in this conversation. You are so hyperbole you forgot that in the same time period there are also multiple game with large viable char pool like mk11, sf V, skull girls. And pls the whole point of the match up is less technical is so bull shit I don't even know where to start. Each FG character have multiple combo, each combo have different break point depend on %, character weight, position, hit box, input, game specific tech, etc. Not to mention in all of the game I mention 1 character can have different play style with vastly different strength an weakness. And to compare to super "complex" match up yugioh with super amazing out play such as, side anti back row vs back row decks, side anti GY vs GY deck, side droll against deck that need multiple search, side barrier against decks use mostly 1 extra deck types. WoW such massive big brain skillful plays, who would have guest that side in cards that completely deny opponent mechanics would completely destroy them.I don't even know how people can even comprehend this game. I guest that multiple 20+ pages google docs guides/ studies and 1000+ hours of labs from other game pros is no where near the levels of Yugioh players - the smartest gods in the world. I wish there were a perfect symmetrical game where they can perfectly test their skill. Maybe they will invent one of those game and call it chess or even go. One can only wish
The most obvious answer is that they're different games. More specifically: On MOBAs: The draft is nearly a symmetrical card game. Every side has access to pick or ban every hero. In addition, there tends to be no pick that will blow out the other draft unless something gets _really_ messed up. No matter what the enemy team does in draft before the game, you have a chance to properly respond with any option. If there's a pick that would absolutely ruin your comp, you can ban it or pick it before they get a chance to. There's also an overall meta. Generally, there's a handful of overall strategies that will be performed. Characters are picked to fulfill these strategies (usually 1-3 are patch defining). On fighting games: Characters generally have have similar sets of tools framed in different ways. For instance, every character in Street Fighter has a basic throw, basic strikes, and basic movement options. The characters in competitive fighting games is pretty much balanced that, no matter what two characters, there's a fighting chance between both players. There are some awful matchups, but they generally come from older games and games with rosters so large that it's sisyphean to try to balance everything at once. On Yugioh and other TCGs: Sometimes, there's just nothing you can do with a matchup. If your deck fundamentally plays out of the graveyard and your opponent's deck fundamentally stops usage of the graveyard, then you need cards that do not function alongside your main strategy to be able to overcome it. But, you only have 15 main deck + 15 sideboard slots open to deal with these strategies. If there's 10 decks in the format and they all have different targeted hate, you suddenly only have 3 answers in a 40 card deck. That's not really good odds. --- It's not really the diversity that makes it less skilled per say. It's the state that the diversity causes. Diverse formats with blowouts (as we see now) are generally less skillful in game. They trend towards drawing the out rather than making snap decisions based on the game state and probabilities. Diverse formats that are engine vs engine are generally extremely skillful since there tends to be significantly less cards that automatically win the game. Less diverse formats generally have pretty complex interplay. Tear was incredibly skill testing because the specific Tear vs Tear matchup had like 40 decisions each player had to make each turn since there were so many effects going off and half of them were reciprocal. My memory of Dragon Ruler was that it was also pretty skill testing because it was all about resource management. There are also less diverse formats that were less skillful. The ones that were basically "who went first/got their instant win combo first". --- On the complexity of Yugioh matchups: It's less that it's complex and more that it's so binary. Every generic counter that's worth running is a complete blow out. Nibiru will blow out every single deck that has to summon more than 5 monsters and can't access a negate. Floodgates will blow out every single deck that can't afford to run consisten backrow hate. In addition, they can be protected by various effects, which significantly increases the burden from "sideboard backrow hate and you'll probably draw 1 copy" to "bring enough backrow hate to draw two copies." Anti-Spell Fragrance will nuke you if you don't have any single target quick effects. Setting 5 will nuke you if you rely on single target quick effects as your backrow hate, so you need backrow sweepers like Evenly, Lightning Storm, or Duster. Can you really afford to run Lightning Storm and Duster in your extra if you think Unchained is going to be a problem this tournament? Droll will kill you if you rely on drawing/searching multiple times per turn. Droll will also do nothing to half the decks in the format Forbidden Droplet will give you enough play to do something, but it's a dead card if they have a Macrocosmos effect. Slow blowout cards ala Evenly or Raigeki will do nothing if they have negates. The Bystials will blow out any dark/light graveyard, but will do nothing against other decks. Dimensional Barrier will kill half of the decks in the format if it resolves, but it can't do a single thing against pure link decks. When siding is closer to "I am going to side in some solemn judgments because I am going first" or "I can afford to side in Twin Twister to weaken my opponent's Adventure engine and it will be a good answer--but not an instant win--against half the decks right now", diverse formats are significantly more skillful. --- Probably the best description of Yugioh's current state is that it's like a fighting game where you have a 50% chance of being unable to tech throws. In a less diverse format, the problem is hidden because either nobody is picking a character that can throw, or everyone is picking them so the game is pure footsies. In a diverse format, you just have a 10% chance of running into the one guy who can throw your ass to kingdom come and you can't do shit about it which feels awful if you are competitive and want to win. But it also sucks when people can't play what they want. But you have to accept those situations where one person just can't do anything because of the matchup which is bad for the competitive side. Or sometimes their controller just gets unplugged and they don't draw a single answer 3 games in a row. C'est la vie.
@@PetrygaLiades-mn6ro I purposely added "individual" when describing matchup complexity for a reason. I think dota is very complexity game (no experience playing/watching league so I can't say much on it) with a lot of depth, however, the depth (like I said before) does not come from the individual hero matchup intricacies for the most part (at least compared as yugioh imo). The sven vs luna matchup can only go so deep, but the intricacies when the supporting cast, offlaner, mid around them change (even if just slightly) is really something else. This is compounded by the fact that the matchups and dynamics faced by any singular char changing as the game process. The entire flow of mobas when everything GETS COMBINED is very intricate i agree, but on a individual level the intricacies required is not the same. Take YCS Dortmund as an example, d/d crow on regulus target and def position zeus lost 2nd place the finals. Sometimes both sides can't make their big push (handtrapped, bricked, whatever), and it just turns into a weird scramble where you need to know very particular interactions/applications of your opponent's tools in detail or you might just lose off that (knowledge checks basically), which isn't actually that common in mobas (at least after the characters basics are figured out). If you're into fighting games so much think of what happens in gg after one side lands a far hit but can't convert. As much as we like to joke and complain about blow outs (which is fair enough to do), there are also plenty of situations where both sides don't just get blown out and you just have to play through their board with what you have (and for your record, the winning list for YCS Indianapolis had 0 blowouts in the main deck) Regarding fighting games matchup depth, no I don't think fighting game matchups are less technical than that of yugioh. Take the original quote and ignore the first parenthesis and you get "Also individual hero matchups are nowhere as deep as deck matchups in yugioh or fighting games". If i didn't communicate well my bad, but I never compared matchup depth between yugioh and fighting games directly in the ORIGINAL comment. I only put fighting games there as a DIGRESSION to point out I think both yugioh and fighting games have deeper INDIVIDUAL matchups than moba. Truth be told I do think fighting game matchups are by far the most technical out of any genre. Also apologize for not seeing ultimate in the original comment, some reason my brain glossed over that for some reason (bless we've even with "individual" and 'ultimate"). However, melee is still relevant as yugioh's ... design philosophy(?maybe not the right term) leans much more melee and "immersion gameplay" (if you remember this from the whole Maximillian fiasco awhile back) than the streamline approach of ultimate. More viable decks in yugioh would be closer in equivalence to melee having 20 viable characters or something when many players think melee currently has just enough variety (iirc tofu mentioned this in one of his videos. And again, not a perfect or good analogy for that matter, but prob the best we can get when trying to link smash to yugioh which... honestly is not very applicable to each other in the first place). A short bit on the rest of the fighting games. Dk much about netherealm games or skull girls but sfv has been accused of sanding things down similar to ultimate (not saying it's a bad thing, I quite like streamlined games actually, just talking about applicability in this case). And to reiterate yes, i believe fighting game matchups are the most technical out of all the genres (maybe RTS can compete? idk i don't really touch RTSs much). Now that we got matchup complexity out of the way... You're literally applying frameworks you obtained from other games to yugioh, WITHOUT CONSIDERING POTENTIAL DIFFERENCES THAT MIGHT INVALID THE FRAMEWORK IN THE FIRST PLACE. And to be clear, I don't like/agree with every aspect of the "framework" (not really any singular cohesive framework per say, just general tendencies) embraced by most of yugioh's top players, in fact I HATE how hard some players lean into meta calls at times instead of trying to hedge their bets (at least to a reasonable degree). With that in mind, I also acknowledge there are genuine reasons that "framework" exist. Why does the implication of diversity differ between mobas and yugioh barring matchup technicality? Simple, on one hand you get 5 chars to "check" the entire meta game (not my preferred way of framing/interpreting this but simplifying here), on the other you only get to bring ONE DECK for the entire tournament. The demands required and response available to a moba composition vs a yugioh deck is simply different. And as I have mentioned before, yes choosing a char locks you into certain options (like choosing what deck to play), but nowhere after that are your options physically limited (unlike tech choices which get locked after submission). To illustrate my point further, mobas DO NOT force you down any particular build after you get into the game (the build you go for might be shit, but you can still go for them), but yugioh PHYSICALLY prevents you from accessing all the tools in the game through limited (pre-game selected) slots (it's like if the shop limited you to only bringing 1 build before you can even see the opp's comp). This means any format where the line of "reasonable to check the relevant decks in through your main + side deck and have it be consistent" gets crossed, can be dangerously close to wins/loses being determined by random matchup coin tosses. Also you get to respond to your opponent's picks "in real time" so that too. Where does yugioh and fighting games differ (again outside of matchup complexity)? Well through how matchup knowledge/options persist and again the existence (or lack there of) of "blind" pre-game selections. In fighting games, you know the matchup that knowledge is relevant (and importantly the same) until a new patch. In yugioh sure you can learn matchup x, but if you're forced to switch non-engine for matchup y, the tools you have to deal matchup x changes also and is no longer the same. So if you need to check 6 decks but can only physically fit tech for 5 decks, well tough luck. To be clear, the techs don't have to be blow outs, they just have to be relevant and powerful enough to concretely change the situation, but in a wide format with 20 viable decks even that can be hard. In short, in fight games if a meta is diverse, investing more time will almost always improve your chances (learn a matchup or pick up a secondary). But in a wide yugioh format, investing more time won't magically give you more tech slots to work with. And regarding pre-game selections, sure your char choice in a fighting game limits you, but beyond that all the tools available are still the same regardless of if you practiced the matchup or not. It's not in your favor (both execution and knowledge wise), but if a specific situation requires a specific response, you can still accidentally stumble across it since you're not physically limited in anyway (like chess). And in fighting games if your main has a bad matchup you're allowed to pick up a secondary, that's not the case in yugioh so your singular deck HAS to be able to check the entire meta reasonably. And finally, no, I do not think yugioh pros are "the smartest gods in the world" you're putting words in my mouth. That is probably based off of the misunderstanding regarding yugioh vs fighting game matchup depth but just don't push this point further, it be stupid if you did. Also yes, most competitive yugioh players hate floodgates/blowout, and if you want to watch Josh did a video covering the modern state of side decks. I won't pretending siding d barrier when you go first doesn't happen, but there is so much more than that when you actually build a side deck. For the record, I am also a chess player (1900 peak which is around average) so I understand how the game functions (both it's strengths and flaws) on a "design level" (like how the game has changed post neural network engines).
If pro players are really good then they should be prepared for everything, including rogue and should not side to hard counter just a handful of deck.
Yugioh's *PACING ISSUES* is the cause. Having to always have immediate plays in your opening hand causes things to be extremely coin flip-reliant, degenerate and sacky. The amount of decks ISN'T to problem, it's there's really NO TIME to use the skill of improvisation in a 1-3 turn game. Its ridiculous pacing is going to be the end of it with games like One Piece gaining more and more attention. There's a bunch of options out here for card games than to be dealing with Solitaire 2.0. Being locked out of the game before you even get a single turn shouldn't *exist* and can easily be done away with with a new Master Rule.
Exactly this. The fact that most games are decided by your first 5 cards means that you want them to be as impactful as they possibly can be. "Safe but universally useful" cards like imperm and ash are rarely enough nowadays. You want "high risk high rewards" answers like droll or nibiru, which are great in certain match-ups but next to useless in some others, which is what lead to these "you can't prepare" debate in the first place.
@@namelessanonymous2913 Then comes those times where people draw nothing but *Konami Snake Oil* (handtraps and board breakers) and they go first. Randomized "solutions" to NOT a deck, but inherent game imbalance. Instead of fixing the problems so no cards escape and all abide under future-proof rules, just keep selling Snake Oil (prescriptions). How long have players been running these "solutions" in every deck? YEARS and things haven't improved. Playing MTG, there's an absolute ridiculous amount of effects that could never be on a Yugioh card. For instance, hand disruption (Thoughtseize/Liliana of the Veil/Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger), heavy mill (Traumatize/Tasha's Hideous Laughter/Mind Funeral/Ashiok, Dream Render), Control (Overwhelming Splendor), Drawing (Compulsive Research) and burn (Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Cerebral Eruption/Spiraling Embers/Worldfire). This stuff is all balanced by pacing: You can't do too much too fast. End-game situations are supposed to take time. Things have become monotonous by being able to Speedrun and bypass any sense of a mid-game.
26:18 No, you're under the assumption that you're supposed to be able to prepare for your opponents. You're not. It has only been that way naturally because some room temperature IQ idiot at Konami was designing cards specifically to be weaker than other cards in the same sets which made formats revolve around only the good cards from those sets.
"Tier Zero formats are good depending on the deck and the mirror match". Nah. Sorry josh but Tier Zero formats put too many barriers to players for it to be considered even remotely a good thing. From monetaries barriers to annihilating the rest of the game in its path. I get that its good for the competetive players but as for the 95% rest of the game, I just don't think it is that healthy.
I think people need to look more outside of yugioh since diversity and rouge is a lot more prevalent in games. I think pokemon is the key example where the off meta picks sometimes roll up and win since no one teched for it.
That's because there's no Ash Blossom. The only thing you can do in Pokemon to interrupt your opponent is play floodgates like Path to the Peak. Which people do but unlike Yugiouh rogue decks there don't care about that because they're usually single-prizers.
Worst format we ever played was the format with Jesse FTKing a 12 year old in the feature match
lil bro had to learn one way or another
@@frig7014😂😂😂😂😂
Jesse be like he gonna learn today. Also we are coming up to the 5 year anniversary of the legendary Matt Thompson vs Jesse Kotton feature.
@@fortant691 Why'd you have to do that to me? Why did you need to make me feel old?
@@Laflamme78 you right. It was actually 5 years ago as of 4 days.
Ok guys, but with all due respect. How are you not prepared for diversity at this point. It’s a little ridiculous to not have a well thought out plan when entering a tournament.
To be fair, for Mine you should just "draw the out lol". For diversity, when someone tells you to "draw the out lol", you ask "which one??" Hahahaha
On top of the fact that any average player should expect a lot of diversity after a new set gets released, especially in this particular case where the previous dominant decks (Tears and Kashtira) just invalidated a lot of otherwise viable decks.
With all due respect how are you not prepared for tier 0? It's literally 1 strategy to prepare for. It's a little ridiculous to not have a half competent plan when entering a tournament.
I just hearing him crying cause he just can't meta power through the tournament due to it being so diverse and unpredictable
@@quinzellwilliams6806you're replying to a copy pasta
It's supposed to be ironic lol
Tl;dr on this entire discourse:
Pros of Tier 0/0.5 formats:
- Easier to prepare and tech for
- Higher skill expression
- Lower skill ceiling since there is a limited card pool in play
Cons:
- Games are borderline unwatchable
- Card market is insane, to a point where budget players are priced out of the game entirely
- The game essentially becomes "play this $600 deck or don't bother competing"
Pros of diverse formats:
- More deck and tech options across the board for both budget and high end players
- Higher creative expression and playstyle variations
- Lower skill floor, but a much higher skill ceiling
- The sheer and utter excitement from watching Jeff Leonard top with Exodia
Cons:
- Losing to variance
- Much harder to prepare for considering the different techs and matchup spreads
- Pak complains on twitter
Frankly, I know which one I prefer, and it's not Tear format. Which way, Yugioh Player?
Funnily I think you’ve hit in the divide exactly with your last point. Casual and semi-competitive players heard video after video trying to tell them tear is good actually while the deck was boring or frustrating the pants off them and now once we are finally free from being powergated out of winning this format we are told it’s bad when that is far from what many are feeling.
Both sides have fair points. And I don’t think any of Pak, Jesse or Josh are actually trying to say tier 0 is the best format here, but I still prefer this over either Tear or Kash formats personally.
Just a hint: Jesse's background music mixed with your Ocarina of time music just gives headaches😅
This is what happens when the dogshit mentality around sTeAlInG cOnTeNt becomes mainstream. Better get used to it.
I think this was the complaint about the video being too quiet was alluding to.
Huh, I thought it was Minishcap music.
No, i just would not insert additional zelda background music, when there already is music in jesses Video, now you hear 2 different music tracks at the same time, wich sounds terrible@@MOORE4U2
Pak when drawing the out : 😊
Pak when opponent draws the out : 🤬
😂😂 exactly
Pak is such a little girl 😂😂😂
I think this needs to be said: as a card game, no amount of preparation or work will guarantee anyone doing well due to the luck-based nature of card games. You could make risky decisions and have it pay off to be seen as the greatest Yugioh Genius for that time or have it blow up in your face like an overstuffed heated weiner. All in all, there is always a risk factor to consider due to circumstances out of your control. I'd say that the risk factor is higher the more diverse the format, but even in less diverse formats there will always be feel-bad moments resulting from bad luck. It's unavoidable
I’d disagree. There’s a reason why you always see the same names topping at these tournaments. Yes there’s luck in regard to simply having to draw cards out of a pile. But there’s a big difference between how consistent your deck is and, literally, playing rock-paper-scissors with which deck you could possibly get seated against because that one random deck, or card, that happens to completely counter yours is viable in the format.
@@EvilShadex101 The reason you see the same names top often because they have the time to prep and go to all the events. Not to say they're aren't good, but there's a small group of people who take it so seriously, spend the money (or are sponsored) and travel to every YCS. Has nothing to do with what the format is or not, as Josh as eluded to before when he said "pro" players are going to play regardless
this sounds like something that would be said by someone who hasnt done well at anything lol
@@LowFlyingHawk are you saying someone who puts in the time, effort, and money shouldn’t be able to consistently top? This is true for, basically, everything. I don’t see the reason for pointing this out.
My argument is that; the fact that you always see the same names is because the game isn’t as luck based as OP is trying to present it. Otherwise the amount of effort you put in wouldn’t, consistently, matter.
A Player's true skill is revealed from weighing the odds on risk and reward and skillfully navigating the odds. If all you know are the top three competing meta decks and you win using one of them, you're not a good Yugioh player, you're a lucky Yugioh player who understands a very narrow range of decks. If you can win in a diverse format, you're actually a good Yugioh player because that requires far more skill than just knowing how to beat three decks you're going to face 92% of the time.
I'd like to see someone else react to this video, just make an endless conga line of reaction
I think a part of the issue is tech cards/ non-engine that feel so variable impact from deck to decks ton of cards that are like 10/10 into some decks and 0/10 into others. Like so many cards are just dead into Purrely and then stuff like d barrier or Kaijus or Herald of the Abyss just beat it into the sun, while being dead or bad into others it feels really bad you can't find like an options that's like 6-7/10 into almost everything.
thats what was so nice about kash format. we all played books and ash and imperm and fenrir because they were all Pretty Good into everything, no tech option in my deck felt like dogshit against anything.
Pak " just draw the out"
Protagonist " draws the out"
Pak *melts down*
Literally, so he got sacked that’s the game
@@nfisher5685dude also probably played ttt
@@GuessWhatHappened1 I feel that if you get Thrusted for the out, it feels significantly less awful than just getting smashed by them hard drawing the one-of.
You get one monster effect activation before they can add it to their grip. Your opponent now has to sacrifice one of their resources and it creates an interesting dynamic. If you're the turn player, what are you going to try to give up to enable access to your Thrust? Do you blindly add Herald when they have set backrow, which could be a Purelyly to deny the Herald? Do you instead add extension to play through their board rather than search for an immediate out?
If you're not the turn player, do you try to make your monster's effect as impactful as possible? If you have one sleepy memory under your Noir, is the risk of Thrust worth one draw? Will you hold it because they are playing as though they have Thrust and want to Tactics for a +2 since they already have an out in hand?
If you have Herald in hand, you usually just send it since it's not quick. If they have a counter, they have a counter. If they don't, you'll probably win.
It's just not that interesting and it feels pretty sacky because there is very little involvement of in game decision making with your opponent.
@@bagorngo I really dont like the talk of how cards make you feel. It sounds too emotional. We dont even know each others ratios.
But regardless thrust is often live on purley the goal is to get 5 under noir that comes with risk.
I don’t get the complaint for the herald of the abyss hard draw. Everyone who tested for the event is going to have out(s) for purrely. Purrely doesn’t have a lp card for time and they play long games, so time will always be an issue. That’s a preparation issue IMO
Pak was being a cry baby. Thats the only reason why most people are saying this. Not to mention dude wanted a sloved format before it offically started 😂
In fact you don't need any non-engine card to play around Herald of the Abyss. Purrely can just save 1 spell to summon the little black cat when opponent use Herald abyss.
Not many people like towers decks in diverse formats.
It’s actually the same reason as mystic mine:
Mystic Mine required main deck backrow removal, and that’s okay, but sucks against literally every other matchup if most decks are monster spam and the backrow removal does minimal against them. It’s a 50/50 on if you’re maining enough backrow removal to handle the situation.
Same thing with purrely. You have to have herald of the abyss, kaijus, etc. or you’re gonna have an extremely hard time. Those cards are just not good in other matchups. If it was a purrely t0 format, awesome, people will main kaijus.
Since it’s not though, it’s pure luck whether you face purrely or the other top decks. And if you draw those other cards like herald of the abyss etc. against non-purrely decks you’re going to have a bad time. So you put those in the side deck and have to accept your game 1 against purrely has to be extremely scuffed to have a chance in a non-purrely dominated format.
Pure tournament luck of your opponents deck puts you in a 50/50. Not even in game luck which kinda sucks.
@@GuessWhatHappened1pak is a Clown
I usually don't mind it, but the background music is so distracting in this video.
It's literally 3 sources of audio playing at the same time, unwatchable for me 😔
It's usually the same in every reaction video, but Jesse's sound was low and Josh turned his down to match it but I think the music wasn't tuned down to match that
28:15 exactly my point. Nice to see josh admit it as well.
Sure diverse wont be prefered by super competitive players who playtest a lot and always enter tournament to win, but most playerbase like it, and its better for YGO in general.
So it is what it is, pros just need to adapt as well as they can and keep enter YCS. Its not like pros will quit coz diverse format or anything, they will still playing. Sure few ppl like pak might not play but most other will. Ycs will still have lot players entering. And maybe come up with insane tech to actually beat the diverse format. Thats part that make YGO exciting.
I hate when people say we are not playing chess as an argument, because we're not playing roulette either.
The thing is its a mix of chess and poker. Thats why we like the game. Theres an element of luck but it isnt as strict as chess
respect to whoever can watch the full video, that ocarina of time music is something else lol
🔥
Pak being pissed he didn't win the entire championship, despite winning multiple others and obvious tops, gives off the same vibes as Koreans crying because they lost to EU/NA in League. Just funny to look at.
You really just missed the whole point wow
Nothing I said was about any point, it was an observation. Congrats! @@whales312
@@whales312people priding themselves on not listening and not rebutting the valid arguments these guys are putting forward are pretty funny
@@ducky36F I wish to be that ignorant and stupid. Life sounds so easy
20 mins in, i have to stop watching this, the looped music is killing me
Yugioh needs Josh as our voice for fixing the different opinions' attacking, like Jeeshhh, let them talk and respectfully disagree.. We're not a bunch of Kaiba irl
Couldn't agree more, this community, at least online, is not very good at identifying the difference between opinions and facts. Plus the toxic stuff like calling people "crybabies", "meta sheep", etc... That stuff is just not productive for this discussion.
Josh "fixing" yugioh... am I the only one with flashbacks to the 200+ cards ban list of his xD
Think he just gonna ban mathmech and rikka and it's fixed
No people just are seriously children.
Nah, some people need to be told that they are acting childish AF. PAK was acting like a baby because he 'drowned in pools' and complains about the format where, if he was Rando Mc No name, he would get told to stop crying and try their best next time.
Me before the video: guys give him a chance, he’s giving his opinion.
Me after: what a crybaby
Pro players just want it there way or no way. They want us to respect their opinion or see their point of view. But don’t wanna see our point of view. I’m tired of the same dudes topping. I will argue it takes more skill in a diverse format than tier zero. You basically have to know a lot about the game and each deck how they operate. Which makes it more fun seeing things you don’t normally see.
Wish i can listen to this video without the Background Music, its pretty distracting imo
I gotta say, Pak really can’t be that mad. Like, Purrely sits on a giant towers, of course matches are gonna be sacky lol
I think a major factor that we dont consider is the knowledge needed for each format. In Edisons the cards are simple to understand and read, the combos are very linear, minimal actions committed.
Today, even control decks are sudo combo decks. So the amount of understanding of each deck, combos, were to handtrap, whats their potential endboard etc comes into play.
How many people dont know the text or combos for like Rikka, Tear, Mannadium.
This why people also hate rogue decks, because it means a matchup were you dont know your opponnets strategy, youll gonna spend half the game reading the cards and have no clue how to play vs them.
YGO has so many different ways to play through all the different archetypes and gimmicks that exist. This leads to people having different perspectives on how the game should be (omni negate boards, combo solitaire). I honestly blame it on Konami for designing so many different types of cards/decks that play in different ways and a lot of them requiring different counterplays or specific cards to stop. Sure, it leads to some really cool and fun interaction, but they have also opened the path to some degenerate shit that should never exist in a card game (my opinion), which has made balancing and sometimes trying to find an out impossible - you just get screwed by a bad hand or match up you were dealt. Because of these factors, YGO is just one of those games I can see competitively. If you want to be competitive in a fair, skill based environment, there are other games out there.
Feeling that if you put in enough work you get to win is feeling entitled to win. Part of this game is sometimes you just draw bad, if you don't like variance in games than card games aren't for you, go play chess.
Being able to solve a diverse format takes a completely different skillset than being able to win a solved format. I 100% get what Josh is saying here, but putting in a lot of work to prepare for the tournament is only part of what a diverse format requires. Obviously, I don't know specifically what other people are doing to prepare, but if they're preparing in the same way that they would for a solved format, then it doesn't really matter how much they do.
Agree, deck building for solved format means you are building a deck with an expected match up, also you can make a meta calls deck which no one prepare for…. But building a deck with diverse format, means there are a lot of factors need to be considered because so many varieties of match up, also konami as a company can attract many new players for playing yugioh, because there is no restriction for new players to follow tier zero deck in order to win, they just need to collect the board breaker staples and handtraps in order to compete.. collect board breaker and handtrap staples means another profit for company…
The number of competitive decks in a format has nothing to do with whether a format is solved or not. A solved format simply means the deck matchups are known and are unchanging.
Last nats was “diverse” but they did all the same thing. Every deck locked you out of the game and a lot of those decks literally just did scythe - baronne with back row. You can’t play unless you played floo which did the same thing via barrier statue.
That was punk only. SWS and Branded did not play this way
@@dai-belizariusz3087 It was beyond just punk lmao. branded definately played that way, You just scythe lock with a trap card instead. It was the same shit different flavor. Swordsoul drew a bunch of cards and put rivaly up.
@@Sparda51Either you realize but didn't point it out of you simply didn't understand what you said. They all did what? Floodgates, they all played floodgates.
Then why Pak didnt choose the safest choice that is rescue ace? If he wasnt sure about the format in the first place? I feel like he made a very brave decision and it didnt pay off, even him didnt want to partecipate (he know before even the tournament start).
I still think Pak got unlucky with the swiss round pairing and losing to 1 copy card in the deck it happen also in other format that someone lose bacause of it. He was unlucky with his brave decsion to go for purely.
To me feel like he got so emotional to posting that on twitter because he was so mad about it, after that preparation and testing, this is understandable i think everyone would be mad about that.
Its true prepare in a diverse format is hard but doesnt mean the format is bad because of it, just saying.
Pretty good point about decks requiring to many bricks. It was why my number one enemy when I was playing Branded wasn’t Ash, it was polymerisation, Tragedy, Ad Lib, Dark Magician and all the other bloody bricks you can put in that deck 😂
I think the pro players are mad because other people are winning tournaments now and not them 👀👀👀
Facts
Diversity is amazing fun. We never know what rouge decks can top. More Diversity means more challenges 🙌 😀 💪
preparation isnt skill, these pros just arent as good as they think
Preparation half the battle. Being able to think ahead and plan out which decks are big threats for you is just as important as being able to think up combo lines on your feat. So yes, it is a skill.
Great video Josh, I really appreciate the nuance take and the message of hearing and respecting others opinions on the game.
I don’t play Yu-Gi-Oh anymore as I found it the most uninteresting, and worst in terms of consumer practices, of all the TCG I played, but I still like to keep up with it by watching yours and others videos.
My two cents on this topic is that it really comes down to a fundamental issue of having little to no time to counter play an opponent as most of the interactions that matter in a game take place very early (first two turns usually), and how resilient newer archetypes are nowadays.
I think this makes it frustrating to more high level players as they can’t be prepared for everything, some options are great against some decks and dead draw against others, and there is no backup strategy besides hopping for a brick from your opponent. On the other hand I see it as being fun for a more casual player to be able to enter a tournament and know that there is a good chance that the deck they enjoy won't be stopped in its tracks before it even starts most of the time.
15:10 thank you 😂😂
The herald of abyss could happen regardless of format.
This why people saying pak a cry baby. 😂 talking about diversity can make a format bad, yet people were prepared, you just werent
Strange arguments when everyone’s kinda like… “I dont want to play awkward 1 ofs” and “ban prosperity”
Prosperity literally circumvents this problem by itself.
How does prosp circumvent this? I draw sarama + prosp, there is still no way for me to float into sarama through the unchained s/t prosp or not.
How people can respect them when they throw the unrespectable behaviour first?
.
But personally, this format is better than the format where you can win if you have enough money to optimize your deck with strong dominant META decks, and better than the format where you can beat your opponent after you randomly draw the counter card that you add it your deck from your side deck 1s ago. And because there are a lot playable decks here, according to theory supply and demnd, the card's price might be lower in the future because the demand of the cards not centered to a certain deck or support around it.
That's the thing that frustrated me, Pak is throwing shade and when he actually gets pushback the community is suddenly toxic. Side note very based pfp 😭😭😭💢
Pro players just want it there way or no way. They want us to respect their opinion or see their point of view. But don’t wanna see our point of view. I’m tired of the same dudes topping. I will argue it takes more skill in a diverse format than tier zero. You basically have to know a lot about the game and each deck how they operate. Which makes it more fun seeing things you don’t normally see.
Really interesting discussion ruined by the music on the background
Josh explaining empathy to yugioh players and them not understanding the problem with their behavior, is the funniest thing ever.
This is an hour long video talking about how professional card game players don't like a balanced format cause they forgot the fundamentals of the card game they say they like playing. Preparing a deck and side deck to only counter 3 play styles should never have been considered "competitive builds".
To compare to fighting games it's like pros miss the days of Akuma mirrors only in early SF (before he was banned or any other character was buffed) now they're complaining there's no way to prepare to fight the whole roster, which you should be capable of practicing since you spend the most time playing. You can't ever adapt to everything but your play style should be more flexible than "this only works against 3 relevant strategies" at an event of 100+ people
Josh one thing about the crybabies.
PAK is literally emotional and cries.
He complains about a random card in a deck yet herald of the abyss is a played card currently because purrely is second most representated deck.
How can you blame people not netdecking enough so he knows what he can play around.
Also he literally played against meta decks. VS, tear, dlink.
Then he posts "worst format ive ever played"
I mean wtf thats literally crybaby right there!!!
I agree that we should be nice and resonable with each other which goes for general human Interaction. That being said noone wants to play the same fucking deck all day long. You dont.
“Pak is emotional and cries” you pointing that out like it is a problem. Is being emotional touching ur toxic masculinity too much?
@@eleonarcrimson858 if you're being this emotional over a card game you need to step back a little
@@GG_Nowa explain what “this” emotion is. He said he doesn’t like the format and was disappointed that he didn’t top after putting in the work. “Over a children’s card game” is what people say when they don’t have anything to say about the subject.
@@eleonarcrimson858 i have no problem with him being emotional. Also i dont see the point of being emotional as a strictly non masculine thing. Masculine emotions are usually communicated differently than those from females.
That being said, thats not the point. He has influence and started a whole debate because he lost and didnt keep his cool. So he turned to social media "cry" about the game to feel better when all the sheeps Go "yeah pak that was so mean that 1 player played herold of the abyss, although he probably played thrust along side it to counter PURRELY".
In the end peoples reaction was mostly the opposite and now his streamer friends over analyze this statement which Pak most likely just threw out there out of pure Frustration.
Its a dumb move 100%. If you have some kind of influence you have to watch what you say or live with the consequences (e.g. politicians).
In that sense his whole behaviour was immature.
@@Corey91666 no the discussions about this format was relevant even before him tweeting about it. He made a video about the format before even the tournament started.
Jesse always looks like he's melting
Wow pros still complaining about variance in a CARD GAME. Make it make sense lmao.
There are levels to this and they're complaining that it's at a more extreme point right now. Very very straight-forward stuff lol
classic strawman lmao
@@UnhappyPensFanHow is it at an extreme? Any format with more than 3 meta decks is an extreme now?
@@BanditTools I never said it was. I'm saying complaining about variance is acceptable since it obviously CAN and HAS been at an extreme level. The argument is whether or not it is. But to say that people shouldn't complain about variance in card games at all is just braindead and your initial point lol
@@UnhappyPensFan Couldn't care about your argument here but complaining about variance in a game that is almost completely variance based sounds more braindead to me. It's like complaining why does water make things wet???
X-2 cut thing is done in unofficial Pokemon tournaments before during pandemic which is mostly done Online. Some events back then were quite big, with hundreds of participants. Official Pokemon tournaments still used the regular swiss round system.
Gigachad EU Masterduel World Champion reacts to runner-up Randy
This is just cringe
@@eleonarcrimson858 i mean, he's not wrong, MD qualifier is much harsher than TCG. BO 1 basically mean your deck need to cover a lot of variance which the pros pretty much complain about
@@jps_user20 Harsher in a different way.
There's a lot more variance in MD because of the Bo1 nature so losses outside of the control of players happen more often, but every loss means significantly less than in tournaments. You can reach the top of DC with a 68% winrate. The actual difficulty from DC comes from the poopsocking nature of it.
With TCG tournaments, a 68% winrate would mean that, on average, you lose 24% of your Bo3 matches. That generally puts you at making day 2, but not exceeding top 64/128. Each individual match is worth significantly more, so variance has a profoundly greater impact.
Chess is a great game, I love chess. If you want to play something like chess you should probably give that a go.
So, play Go?
@@Ragnarok540 I do? haha
I was refering to the thumbnail but am since aware the context in the actual video is completely different, that's what I get for taking the bait 😂😂
I don't get one thing: if it's more difficult to got prepared for an event, isn't it better for a pro player? Isn't it better for the more skilled ones? 'Cause that way the best ones has the chance to be better than the others. If the difficulty cap is too low, it's more difficult to prove one's skill
That's the thing. Most pros aren't that good they just have access to meta decks/cards.
Sometimes there's just no way for a single archetype to cover everything, I miss the times were tier 1 decks were like a swiss knife, as long as you played perfectly you could answer anything, but for that the game needs to last at least 5 turns per player.
It's where the difficulty is that matters. The problem with diverse formats is that you could prepare for let's say the top 3 decks, spending 100 hours prepping, then NEVER play a single one in the event. Essentially all the work you put it in doesn't matter and you at the same level of prep now as a guy that put zero prep in. That's where Pak's frustration was in his tweets. It feels like all the work preparing doesn't matter.
Pros dont like losing to random decks lol
@@tuwogpat a ycs at least 3 out of 4 people can afford all the expensive cards, specially in a 1st world country like USA
I think 4-5 meta decks seems like the optimal number for a format
33:24 Edison is the perfect format 😜
Facts, so much diversity, and feel like u can win againts all decks if u build good deck and play properly.
Game slow enough and powerlvl way lower than modern YGO that u can play quite many turns, trade 1 for 1 advantages, etc. No decks can lock u from playing turn 1 like modern YGO, and u feel like ure playing in every matches.
Floodgates also less good there coz everyone running backrow removals and game slow enough to hope draw em.
Why do people seem to hate diverse formats but love EDISON, were its very diverse with multiple great decks. Is it because its attracting the casual playerbase rather than the LCS competitors?
Some nostalgia. Also part of why edison great is diversity in slower, less powerlvl YGO is great.
Edison lets u play with lot different decks and most looks viable. Mosly due low power ceiling that no one doing toxic turn 1 combo board that u feel need specifically stop em or lose. Floodgates also exist but less a problem there cozzp everyone playing backrow removals and game slow enough to hope u draw it.
As long u have ood deckbuilding and play good, feel like u can defeat any deck, at least most that are not ur bad matchup or something.
@@invertbrid still dosent explain why that diversity is celebrated while current meta is put down. We dont even have "degen" negate decks that are successful in the meta.
If I had to bet its because
Edison is for fun so people dont take it as serious, yet people still say it was an enjoyable format.
The powerlevel of those decks are so low that there is little difference between the best and 5th best deck while today the difference between Rescue Ace and Sky striker for example are night and day.
But I feel this could make people hate the format even more since it measn you have more strategies to account for.
But maybe there were so few mechanics, card pool etc that all those strategies were so linear it didnt matter.
@invertbrid Honestly I think a major factor that we dont consider is the knowledge needed for each format. In Edisons the cards are simple to understand and read, the combos are very linear, minimal actions committed.
Today, even control decks are sudo combo decks. So the amount of understanding of each deck, combos, were to handtrap, whats their potential endboard etc comes into play.
How many people dont know the text or combos for like Rikka, Tear, Mannadium.
This why people have rogue decks, because it means a matchup were you dont know your opponnets strategy, youll gonna spend half the game reading the cards and have no clue how to play vs them.
@@MannyB29 its more of speed and powerlvl of modern deck like i said.
U can play good and dont feel like losing turn 1 most of the time if u play older formats like edison where game is slow and low powerlvl. Thus decks feel less oppresive, tho there is still some decks considered meta. The powerlvl is indeed low in a good way so every deck can have chance to win, if they draw good staples, and play good / making right call / predicting ur opp right.
Game can last more than 5 turns lot of times, u can have lot back and forth interaction, grind game, trading 1 for 1, predicting opp next 2-3 turns, etc. Lot strategies involved yea, thats the beauty of older YGO also.
But yes it being nostalgia factor and unsolved format also play part, u can still find new tech and decks now compared to back then.
@@MannyB29 well yea in general, lot players still like simpler YGO. Tho GOAT feels too linesr, slow and boring for some. Its also pretty solved. Thats why edison gained more popularity. More speed than GOAT, more diversity, and more playstyle.
27:01 Could Rescue-Ace really ever be Tier 0? We have Thrust now and all backrow blowout cards are Normal Spells.
Seems a bit like the Branded situation you elaborated on a while ago.
(Still waiting for Branded's in-archetype way to handle backrow.)
Hah got a good laugh from the “Tear mirrors were fun”
You guys wouldn’t hate diversity if you started playing battle traps and stopped scooping turn one.
You made the point that the overwhelming majority enjoys diversity, which is true, but the problem is pro players (players who make money through yugioh content and performance), have an oversized voice among casuals, and so it brings down the community as a whole when the pros rant on the format incessantly
? Bring down, tf just make up your own mind. Dont blame your refusal to play the format and having an opinion on it on them having their own opinion.
@@GambasFallacy how is me pointing out “you should make up your mind over the format by playing it yourself” being aggressive
OK genuine question, if one doesnt actually play/experience the meta by being a casual, how much of their opinion on said meta are generally accurate?
Like many make fun of yugioboomers for not giving modern yugioh a proper try but complaining about it anyways, yet I don't see a big difference between the yugiboomers and these "casual competitive" players in all honesty. Sure it's easier to just pin "anime fan" to the boomers, but the casual competitives are practically doing the same thing just with "their pet deck"/random jank instead.
And if one is casual anyway why does the meta matter to them? If they are casual like they say, then embrace the casual mentality, play ones pet deck, drop the notion of winning/losing, stop caring about the meta, fuck around if they want, proxy if they are only playing with their friends for all i care, and just have as much fun a possible. Put their actions where their mouth is.
The casual competitive that bash on yugiboomers feel like borderline hypocrites in all honesty.
Now, I will say that I am technically a casual competitive. However, I actually give compassion to newer/returning players and (importantly) don't try to overstep by complaining about the meta (or praising it for that matter) when I honestly don't have that good of a grasp on it.
if you felt aggression from that, idk what to say man.@@GambasFallacy
@@eleonarcrimson858 aight man i might be in the wrong, sorry have a good one
Maybe part of it is that audiences and players have much different perspectives on what makes a format good. Players want to see the best person win, so if everyone knows the meta it will boil down to skill and a little luck. But audiences love when it's diverse, when decks are coming out of nowhere or pulling upsets, so it's probably really hard for both sides of the tournaments to really agree on what is happening 🤣
On behalten of the bad to draw one ofs i think tri made it really good by having a draw and return on ferrijet.
It can salvage ur dead cards like Apex in the lyrilusc build.
I don't think you understand "One guy'd" in twitch chat terms. it's not about it needing to be said but it's a single comment that kind of derails the discussion and forces you to rant about that comment which you did do. in every situation someone get's "one guy'd" it needed to be said but instead of just casually responding to it like you do with all the other comments you fixate on it.
I just don't understand how Tear 0 format was "the most skill intensive format" but not a format where there are a wide array of decks that all essentially have their own win con that isn't super generic (like POTE format where every non tier 1/BASED deck was just scythe lock turbo). it definitely takes more time and skill to learn all these different matchups oppose to just a mirror where you are hoping you mill good, your opponent didn't dweller or stun you, and sequence your chain links correctly.
it's funny Pak complains about the "1000 different decks" when he played against decks he should 100% be familiar with and tested against D-link a constant in the last few formats, VS a community favorite for some reason with a few tops, and 2 Tears the deck everyone is preparing for.
I think its a really cool, interesting perspective that tier zero formats and diverse formats can both be healthy and fun. I tend to prefer a diverse meta because my skillset in game bends better against them and I, like any honest person, tend to have more fun when I'm doing halfway decent, but I also actually had a lot of fun during D Ruler format back in the day and I loved watching games during Tear format. I dont think I had ever put a lot of thought into tier zero v. diversity as a poijt of discussion too much before this conversation. 😊
Welcome to the Brick Format.
i love how chat at the very end is just trying to make grapha tier 1 ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
It is absolutely unbearable seeing the chat constantly jump to absurd/irrelevant conclusions that either straight up misrepresent or ignore the primary point being discussed. How do so many people seem to be incapable of understanding a basic, nuanced discussion?
I can’t even imagine having to engage with this shit on a regular basis.
i thought he was looking at his own thumbnail and i was going full Inception mode
As someone who has no experience competing, I would say 6-8 meta decks is a good number.
The editing is not good this time - it's hard to focus on the stuff that Jesse says in the video when the Zelda background music is on the same volume. Quite annoying. :/
Could we turn off the background music or have it change. It made the video unwatchable
The more I think about it. Power creep and 1 turn ftk's are ruining yugioh. At this stage, if they don't scale back the power of these decks that end the game turn 1. I think yugioh has a good chance of dying off slowly. "Draw the out" wouldn't be an issue nor cracking back and winning turn 2 shouldn't be a thing. Interactions that don't just completely obliterate every turn would be refreshing and be way better for the game
1 card starters are my biggest issue with modern yugioh.
I'm glad that someone is addressing the intolerance of the community.
The community has no obligation to tolerate stupidity.
Here's the main issue with the game right now: [insert oversimplified statement about the game that is made just for the sake of oversimplification and doesn't take into account different pov's]
This is a problem caused by Konami. The consequence of allowing a walking macro cosmos floodgate on legs (aka kashtira ariseheart)
Dont defend that card
Criticize Konami for allowing it to enter the game because doing so led to these several decks being overshadowed.
Now, its time to address the consequences of your actions
Konami. How will you use the ban list. Either lean towards using it a a method to "balance" or continue to use it as a method to increase profits.
Kash is banned now, it's no longer "allowed" at least not in the TCG. This isn't a MD discussion.
@e-tan3911 how long did Kash exists in the tcg. What did that do to the meta? Why are so many decks now existing? Kash had consequences to the meta. We are seeing that now.
@@chuchojuarez95 1. Kash existed for 7 months. The usual time that konami will allow a deck to exist in a meta before they try to rotate it out.
2. It didn't "do" anything to the meta, since Tear was hit out of existence before Kash even became a viable deck. It basically entered a completely blank format, not much to argue there except hypotheticals.
3. Why are there so many meta decks now? There are 4 at most and a bunch of rogue decks. The format is unsolved and people want to test what decks will be good. It usually takes about 2-3 weeks after a set releases for the meta to shape up.
Saying Kash "had consequences" doesn't mean anything? Like yeah, the deck existed, it impacted the meta. It is now irrelevant, so it's impact is gone. Okay. Same with literally any other deck ever. Now what?
Idk the game is just supposed to be fun lol you can’t prepare for everything so why worry about it? Just get one with the game, have fun, and just learn what’s out there.
Its a little surreal. Josh and Jesse are 2 of the nicest players the competitive scene has ever seen.
Then you have have Pak, Trif and Farfa who are so toxic you cant explain why you dislike them without being toxic yourself.
I like Pak but he just went on a baby cry ass rant . And the fact that in his vid he said he wasn’t doing the Predaplant stuff to upscale the cards is a cop out cause there been a bunch of other yugi comtent creators he’s cool with that have said it’s true that he was doing that
How is Trif toxic? He's just a goofball.
Trif is a genuinely nice guy who is very supportive and appreciative of his friends and promotes his viewers making healthy IRL choices and having self confidence. Nothing wrong with playing into an exaggerated meme at the same time
I get pak definitly and to an extend farfa (although i dont feel that way) but trif i dont understand why you feel like he is toxic
Calling pak toxic is so funny 😂 at least farfa has a history of being “toxic” on db and trif had some twitter controversy. Tf did pak do to you lmao
I think one angle when talking about the issue with tear 0 formats is that it devalues all the other cards. When you have a best deck that anyone can play, it makes all the other cards and the excitement around new archetypes that can't compete just fall away. From a casual and collector side of it to your zero formats and even cards that are broken. Make the more common experience of people just picking up in cards and playing seem a lot less valuable. I think that if Konami wants to keep selling a lot of cards and keep getting new players interested, having a lot of new different diverse formats leads to more people finding a deck that they can like the style of like the art of and like the gameplay. I think that the way unchained rescues and even cash play all exemplify this.
Kashtira? Really Kash? The deck that literally locked out a ton of decks just because of it's existance?
@@ThunderflySc2 yup. It gives a new way to play that "stops your opponent from playing" and while it is frustrating, it's also really cool way to do it vs a backrow of floodgates.
I find it interesting how pro's opinions on formats typically correlate to how much they are winning at the moment 😂
The Zelda music blasting and overpowering the video madw this series unwatchable and i generally enjoy your cintent very much so this was upsetting . 💀
The Problem with play in topcut is. Now you are not the guys thats " oh man im 34th soo close to top 32 im angy" but you are the guy thats "oh man im 31th instead of 30th so now i will have to play another round to even top, im angy"
Yugioh should be a 30 card deck minimum to fix the variance issue. Can pick your fav 10 cards or so and open up some new strategy
Super diverse... 30% Rescue Ace tops. I don't think it's diverse, just unsolved. People use the word diverse but the format still has options you just have to call the meta right. 8 Competitive decks is currently completely fine, also Tear should not he played but people want to play Tearlament
The background music is extremely annoying
I honestly think Pak was just being salty as all of his complaints were invalidated by his YCS top with infernobles in the same format he said he hated. Bro is just a sore loser.
metas mit sovielen verschiedenen decks ist das beste meta überhaupt da man einfsach nicht runde für runde gegen den selben schrott spielt...sondern einfach jedes match was anderes haben kann und das ist doch geil...ohhhh ich kann man side nicht anpassen bullshit...einfach bullshit...wer rumheult weil es zu viele decks sind hat sie meiner meinung nicht alle...es gibt nichts besseres und genau da zeigt sich ob man n guter player ist oder nicht da man halt auch mal auf skill setzen muss um zu gewinnen
Unironically the argument here is that pros don't like the concept of high roller decks that only exist because it is a card game.
less diversity = higher skill still baffle me. How come a game like Smash Ultimate, LoL, Dota 2 ... always have 20+ (usually even more not counting minute variations, match ups, combinations) viable character at a time consider competitive and skillful and yugioh player cry like a baby when it only around 10 or so decks around.
Apples to oranges
Ok, have you actually thought about what you type before you hit sent?
Just take dota for example, a tournament game has 7 bans each side and 5 picks, that's 24 heroes that will be interacted with at a bare minimum. Also individual hero matchups are nowhere as deep as deck matchups in yugioh (or fighting games for that matter but i digress), the depth are emphasized from different perspectives (mobas it's about the small permutation in comps and understanding how that changes the game flow as a whole using overarching gamesense. yugioh literally every deck functions different and requires you to not only read every card, know their combos/permutations, and understand all points of interaction your deck has with theirs). Beyond that, you get to see what your opponent picks and respond in draft, which is just not possible in yugioh. Plus it's not like "oh no part of the shop gets locked off due to draft reasons" ever happens in dota while your options are very much limited by your deck choice after submitting in yugioh. Oh and need I remind you that dota's diversity stems from the philosophy of "hard counters" and imagine just being forced to sit through a game where your opp last picked a hard counter and you had no bans to stop it + couldn't pick it through your team's picks, VERY FUN it must be :).
And in regards to smash, do you mean melee or ultimate? because melee you only really have around 7 actually decent chars and it's kind of funny because melee folks bash ultimate's roster to be too wide, and ultimate's systems makes individual matchups much less technical/deep. Also steve and before that pyra and mythra so.....
@@duelme1234 lol you said dota/ lol match up is not as deep as yugioh. Dude get a reality check, those also have team comp, items, time/ map location dependent which guess is too few variables. And I obviously refer to ultimate why the hell would I bring up mele in this conversation.
You are so hyperbole you forgot that in the same time period there are also multiple game with large viable char pool like mk11, sf V, skull girls. And pls the whole point of the match up is less technical is so bull shit I don't even know where to start. Each FG character have multiple combo, each combo have different break point depend on %, character weight, position, hit box, input, game specific tech, etc. Not to mention in all of the game I mention 1 character can have different play style with vastly different strength an weakness.
And to compare to super "complex" match up yugioh with super amazing out play such as, side anti back row vs back row decks, side anti GY vs GY deck, side droll against deck that need multiple search, side barrier against decks use mostly 1 extra deck types. WoW such massive big brain skillful plays, who would have guest that side in cards that completely deny opponent mechanics would completely destroy them.I don't even know how people can even comprehend this game. I guest that multiple 20+ pages google docs guides/ studies and 1000+ hours of labs from other game pros is no where near the levels of Yugioh players - the smartest gods in the world. I wish there were a perfect symmetrical game where they can perfectly test their skill. Maybe they will invent one of those game and call it chess or even go. One can only wish
The most obvious answer is that they're different games. More specifically:
On MOBAs:
The draft is nearly a symmetrical card game. Every side has access to pick or ban every hero. In addition, there tends to be no pick that will blow out the other draft unless something gets _really_ messed up. No matter what the enemy team does in draft before the game, you have a chance to properly respond with any option. If there's a pick that would absolutely ruin your comp, you can ban it or pick it before they get a chance to. There's also an overall meta. Generally, there's a handful of overall strategies that will be performed. Characters are picked to fulfill these strategies (usually 1-3 are patch defining).
On fighting games:
Characters generally have have similar sets of tools framed in different ways. For instance, every character in Street Fighter has a basic throw, basic strikes, and basic movement options. The characters in competitive fighting games is pretty much balanced that, no matter what two characters, there's a fighting chance between both players. There are some awful matchups, but they generally come from older games and games with rosters so large that it's sisyphean to try to balance everything at once.
On Yugioh and other TCGs:
Sometimes, there's just nothing you can do with a matchup. If your deck fundamentally plays out of the graveyard and your opponent's deck fundamentally stops usage of the graveyard, then you need cards that do not function alongside your main strategy to be able to overcome it. But, you only have 15 main deck + 15 sideboard slots open to deal with these strategies. If there's 10 decks in the format and they all have different targeted hate, you suddenly only have 3 answers in a 40 card deck. That's not really good odds.
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It's not really the diversity that makes it less skilled per say. It's the state that the diversity causes. Diverse formats with blowouts (as we see now) are generally less skillful in game. They trend towards drawing the out rather than making snap decisions based on the game state and probabilities. Diverse formats that are engine vs engine are generally extremely skillful since there tends to be significantly less cards that automatically win the game.
Less diverse formats generally have pretty complex interplay. Tear was incredibly skill testing because the specific Tear vs Tear matchup had like 40 decisions each player had to make each turn since there were so many effects going off and half of them were reciprocal. My memory of Dragon Ruler was that it was also pretty skill testing because it was all about resource management. There are also less diverse formats that were less skillful. The ones that were basically "who went first/got their instant win combo first".
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On the complexity of Yugioh matchups:
It's less that it's complex and more that it's so binary. Every generic counter that's worth running is a complete blow out.
Nibiru will blow out every single deck that has to summon more than 5 monsters and can't access a negate.
Floodgates will blow out every single deck that can't afford to run consisten backrow hate. In addition, they can be protected by various effects, which significantly increases the burden from "sideboard backrow hate and you'll probably draw 1 copy" to "bring enough backrow hate to draw two copies."
Anti-Spell Fragrance will nuke you if you don't have any single target quick effects.
Setting 5 will nuke you if you rely on single target quick effects as your backrow hate, so you need backrow sweepers like Evenly, Lightning Storm, or Duster.
Can you really afford to run Lightning Storm and Duster in your extra if you think Unchained is going to be a problem this tournament?
Droll will kill you if you rely on drawing/searching multiple times per turn. Droll will also do nothing to half the decks in the format
Forbidden Droplet will give you enough play to do something, but it's a dead card if they have a Macrocosmos effect.
Slow blowout cards ala Evenly or Raigeki will do nothing if they have negates.
The Bystials will blow out any dark/light graveyard, but will do nothing against other decks.
Dimensional Barrier will kill half of the decks in the format if it resolves, but it can't do a single thing against pure link decks.
When siding is closer to "I am going to side in some solemn judgments because I am going first" or "I can afford to side in Twin Twister to weaken my opponent's Adventure engine and it will be a good answer--but not an instant win--against half the decks right now", diverse formats are significantly more skillful.
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Probably the best description of Yugioh's current state is that it's like a fighting game where you have a 50% chance of being unable to tech throws. In a less diverse format, the problem is hidden because either nobody is picking a character that can throw, or everyone is picking them so the game is pure footsies. In a diverse format, you just have a 10% chance of running into the one guy who can throw your ass to kingdom come and you can't do shit about it which feels awful if you are competitive and want to win.
But it also sucks when people can't play what they want. But you have to accept those situations where one person just can't do anything because of the matchup which is bad for the competitive side. Or sometimes their controller just gets unplugged and they don't draw a single answer 3 games in a row. C'est la vie.
@@PetrygaLiades-mn6ro
I purposely added "individual" when describing matchup complexity for a reason. I think dota is very complexity game (no experience playing/watching league so I can't say much on it) with a lot of depth, however, the depth (like I said before) does not come from the individual hero matchup intricacies for the most part (at least compared as yugioh imo).
The sven vs luna matchup can only go so deep, but the intricacies when the supporting cast, offlaner, mid around them change (even if just slightly) is really something else. This is compounded by the fact that the matchups and dynamics faced by any singular char changing as the game process. The entire flow of mobas when everything GETS COMBINED is very intricate i agree, but on a individual level the intricacies required is not the same.
Take YCS Dortmund as an example, d/d crow on regulus target and def position zeus lost 2nd place the finals. Sometimes both sides can't make their big push (handtrapped, bricked, whatever), and it just turns into a weird scramble where you need to know very particular interactions/applications of your opponent's tools in detail or you might just lose off that (knowledge checks basically), which isn't actually that common in mobas (at least after the characters basics are figured out). If you're into fighting games so much think of what happens in gg after one side lands a far hit but can't convert. As much as we like to joke and complain about blow outs (which is fair enough to do), there are also plenty of situations where both sides don't just get blown out and you just have to play through their board with what you have (and for your record, the winning list for YCS Indianapolis had 0 blowouts in the main deck)
Regarding fighting games matchup depth, no I don't think fighting game matchups are less technical than that of yugioh. Take the original quote and ignore the first parenthesis and you get "Also individual hero matchups are nowhere as deep as deck matchups in yugioh or fighting games". If i didn't communicate well my bad, but I never compared matchup depth between yugioh and fighting games directly in the ORIGINAL comment. I only put fighting games there as a DIGRESSION to point out I think both yugioh and fighting games have deeper INDIVIDUAL matchups than moba. Truth be told I do think fighting game matchups are by far the most technical out of any genre.
Also apologize for not seeing ultimate in the original comment, some reason my brain glossed over that for some reason (bless we've even with "individual" and 'ultimate"). However, melee is still relevant as yugioh's ... design philosophy(?maybe not the right term) leans much more melee and "immersion gameplay" (if you remember this from the whole Maximillian fiasco awhile back) than the streamline approach of ultimate. More viable decks in yugioh would be closer in equivalence to melee having 20 viable characters or something when many players think melee currently has just enough variety (iirc tofu mentioned this in one of his videos. And again, not a perfect or good analogy for that matter, but prob the best we can get when trying to link smash to yugioh which... honestly is not very applicable to each other in the first place).
A short bit on the rest of the fighting games. Dk much about netherealm games or skull girls but sfv has been accused of sanding things down similar to ultimate (not saying it's a bad thing, I quite like streamlined games actually, just talking about applicability in this case). And to reiterate yes, i believe fighting game matchups are the most technical out of all the genres (maybe RTS can compete? idk i don't really touch RTSs much).
Now that we got matchup complexity out of the way... You're literally applying frameworks you obtained from other games to yugioh, WITHOUT CONSIDERING POTENTIAL DIFFERENCES THAT MIGHT INVALID THE FRAMEWORK IN THE FIRST PLACE. And to be clear, I don't like/agree with every aspect of the "framework" (not really any singular cohesive framework per say, just general tendencies) embraced by most of yugioh's top players, in fact I HATE how hard some players lean into meta calls at times instead of trying to hedge their bets (at least to a reasonable degree). With that in mind, I also acknowledge there are genuine reasons that "framework" exist.
Why does the implication of diversity differ between mobas and yugioh barring matchup technicality? Simple, on one hand you get 5 chars to "check" the entire meta game (not my preferred way of framing/interpreting this but simplifying here), on the other you only get to bring ONE DECK for the entire tournament. The demands required and response available to a moba composition vs a yugioh deck is simply different. And as I have mentioned before, yes choosing a char locks you into certain options (like choosing what deck to play), but nowhere after that are your options physically limited (unlike tech choices which get locked after submission). To illustrate my point further, mobas DO NOT force you down any particular build after you get into the game (the build you go for might be shit, but you can still go for them), but yugioh PHYSICALLY prevents you from accessing all the tools in the game through limited (pre-game selected) slots (it's like if the shop limited you to only bringing 1 build before you can even see the opp's comp). This means any format where the line of "reasonable to check the relevant decks in through your main + side deck and have it be consistent" gets crossed, can be dangerously close to wins/loses being determined by random matchup coin tosses. Also you get to respond to your opponent's picks "in real time" so that too.
Where does yugioh and fighting games differ (again outside of matchup complexity)? Well through how matchup knowledge/options persist and again the existence (or lack there of) of "blind" pre-game selections. In fighting games, you know the matchup that knowledge is relevant (and importantly the same) until a new patch. In yugioh sure you can learn matchup x, but if you're forced to switch non-engine for matchup y, the tools you have to deal matchup x changes also and is no longer the same. So if you need to check 6 decks but can only physically fit tech for 5 decks, well tough luck. To be clear, the techs don't have to be blow outs, they just have to be relevant and powerful enough to concretely change the situation, but in a wide format with 20 viable decks even that can be hard. In short, in fight games if a meta is diverse, investing more time will almost always improve your chances (learn a matchup or pick up a secondary). But in a wide yugioh format, investing more time won't magically give you more tech slots to work with. And regarding pre-game selections, sure your char choice in a fighting game limits you, but beyond that all the tools available are still the same regardless of if you practiced the matchup or not. It's not in your favor (both execution and knowledge wise), but if a specific situation requires a specific response, you can still accidentally stumble across it since you're not physically limited in anyway (like chess). And in fighting games if your main has a bad matchup you're allowed to pick up a secondary, that's not the case in yugioh so your singular deck HAS to be able to check the entire meta reasonably.
And finally, no, I do not think yugioh pros are "the smartest gods in the world" you're putting words in my mouth. That is probably based off of the misunderstanding regarding yugioh vs fighting game matchup depth but just don't push this point further, it be stupid if you did. Also yes, most competitive yugioh players hate floodgates/blowout, and if you want to watch Josh did a video covering the modern state of side decks. I won't pretending siding d barrier when you go first doesn't happen, but there is so much more than that when you actually build a side deck. For the record, I am also a chess player (1900 peak which is around average) so I understand how the game functions (both it's strengths and flaws) on a "design level" (like how the game has changed post neural network engines).
If pro players are really good then they should be prepared for everything, including rogue and should not side to hard counter just a handful of deck.
Yugioh's *PACING ISSUES* is the cause.
Having to always have immediate plays in your opening hand causes things to be extremely coin flip-reliant, degenerate and sacky.
The amount of decks ISN'T to problem, it's there's really NO TIME to use the skill of improvisation in a 1-3 turn game.
Its ridiculous pacing is going to be the end of it with games like One Piece gaining more and more attention. There's a bunch of options out here for card games than to be dealing with Solitaire 2.0.
Being locked out of the game before you even get a single turn shouldn't *exist* and can easily be done away with with a new Master Rule.
Exactly this. The fact that most games are decided by your first 5 cards means that you want them to be as impactful as they possibly can be. "Safe but universally useful" cards like imperm and ash are rarely enough nowadays. You want "high risk high rewards" answers like droll or nibiru, which are great in certain match-ups but next to useless in some others, which is what lead to these "you can't prepare" debate in the first place.
@@namelessanonymous2913
Then comes those times where people draw nothing but *Konami Snake Oil* (handtraps and board breakers) and they go first. Randomized "solutions" to NOT a deck, but inherent game imbalance. Instead of fixing the problems so no cards escape and all abide under future-proof rules, just keep selling Snake Oil (prescriptions).
How long have players been running these "solutions" in every deck? YEARS and things haven't improved.
Playing MTG, there's an absolute ridiculous amount of effects that could never be on a Yugioh card. For instance, hand disruption (Thoughtseize/Liliana of the Veil/Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger), heavy mill (Traumatize/Tasha's Hideous Laughter/Mind Funeral/Ashiok, Dream Render), Control (Overwhelming Splendor), Drawing (Compulsive Research) and burn (Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Cerebral Eruption/Spiraling Embers/Worldfire). This stuff is all balanced by pacing: You can't do too much too fast. End-game situations are supposed to take time. Things have become monotonous by being able to Speedrun and bypass any sense of a mid-game.
The issue is that you're assuming that all opinions are equal. They are not.
Please…mute the fuckin background music, or at least turn it down by 75%. The music shouldn’t be louder than you’re speaking
26:18 No, you're under the assumption that you're supposed to be able to prepare for your opponents. You're not. It has only been that way naturally because some room temperature IQ idiot at Konami was designing cards specifically to be weaker than other cards in the same sets which made formats revolve around only the good cards from those sets.
On the subject of Purrely I'm mostly just still shocked they printed an archetype of soft OPTs in 2023.
"Tier Zero formats are good depending on the deck and the mirror match".
Nah. Sorry josh but Tier Zero formats put too many barriers to players for it to be considered even remotely a good thing. From monetaries barriers to annihilating the rest of the game in its path.
I get that its good for the competetive players but as for the 95% rest of the game, I just don't think it is that healthy.
Master duel tax gettin me 9/55 cards perfect deckbuilding decision.. unfortunately i play rikka stun with circular package :c
josh be looking extra shmexy. also i could listen to zelda in the background forever.
yeah drawing the one of like twinseed...oh....too soon?
Or... I'm just giving my opinion on your/their opinion. As long as it's not toxic its just a sharing of an alternate perspective 🤷🏾♂️
i thought yugioh players didn't like rotation
Lot ppl dont, some do
"Pro" players want to be Batman when they should be focused on being Superman.
Video starts 5:55
I think people need to look more outside of yugioh since diversity and rouge is a lot more prevalent in games. I think pokemon is the key example where the off meta picks sometimes roll up and win since no one teched for it.
That's because there's no Ash Blossom. The only thing you can do in Pokemon to interrupt your opponent is play floodgates like Path to the Peak. Which people do but unlike Yugiouh rogue decks there don't care about that because they're usually single-prizers.
32:10 Not doing a Tierliet because you dont feel like knowing enough? Never stopped Calieffect or Julioh kekw
Spoiler. He did well at YCS Bologna xD
The looped music is so bad
I actually would like this format if sp little night was not in the game that card is cancer