A couple of small corrections. The massacre was dusk on feb 18th 1851 as a full moon rose. The date on the stone is a mistake. Lorenzo was not thrown over the cliff that was false hoax put out by the old time writers. He was pulled over to a small clearing where the boulders were missing simply to rifle his stuff not to throw him over. He was in fact thought to be dead and likely was saved by the cold temps of the night putting him almost like in a chilled suspended animation. He did wake up several times but could only get to his hands and knees and looked out and thought he was looking over a cliff. In fact he was on rim of a tumble of boulders when he did semi concious stumble down in the morning hours and blacked out again about 60 feet down the hill. He woke up and looked up and saw and commented "about the blood on the rocks showing he had stumbled down the hill".. They hiked them 64 miles north through the 2 ravines and then further to "the first camp of captivity"--which I go to often. If you are interested possibly we can hook up since nobody has been to the various sites in the books except myself. The route and camp which I solved is in march issue of True West magazine 2018.. My picture is on the title page and the route map shows my name.
Thanks . We are heading out that way and am taking a two wheel drive truck ( GMC sierra) just to the massacre site then turning around. I have a very uncomfortable jeep but don't want to be uncomfortable today and thanks for not adding music. I for one like hearing all the road and cab noises because it adds a extra bonus. For me it's like being there! Thanks man
your best bet is to go in from the painted rocks area. The farmers are not bad guys and you can drive in and park just below the massacre site. Legally the dirt road cannot be shut off to the memorial anyway. Note that the date on the gravesite is a mistake. The bones are no longer there most likely. Dont forget after you walk up to the massacre sign that face north towards the first ravine they went through. But over a hundred feet or so along the edge of the cliff is the perfect clean flat spot they pulled Lorenzo over to to go through his pockets and stuff. Crouch down and look out a couple feet from the edge and Lorenzo thought he was looking over a cliff during the night. now stand up-turns out its not a cliff at all. while walking up or down on the north side of the basalt trail they went up you can step over about 100 feet and look up where Lorenzo lay. You then are standing in the exact spot they drew the picture of him looking up seeing the wagon and the slope he stumbled down. He lay there and woke up in the sun and started his famous crawl. (he saw no wagon by the way-it was out of view they drew it in for viewers also they drew it backwards.) As you look north and west a bit you are looking at Oatman mountain-and the first ravine they went up with bloody bare feet. They simply walked at first across the desert pavement anyone could do it barefoot. The bloody feet came from exactly what she said-the final few hundred feet approaching the saddle of the ravine. Up at the top of the ravine is a pile of rocks--I placed a time capsule message in a bottle there. That is where they first slept. Then then went down the ravine towards the flat open area below where the other indians had walked the cattle over along the bottom east side of the mountain. After 24 hours they had barely walked 7 miles-thus confusing researchers. Should you join "in search of Olive Oatman" on facebook all the documents are there for anyone to view. The main one is "the amazing 7 miles"--in which over 20 pages of the stratton book in fact only cover 7 miles. The writing loops forwards and then doubles back several times. When I broke that code it then opened up the exact route to the first camp of captivity including where they shot the arrow at her in ravine2. A good read by the way is March 2018 of true west magazine and you can see the exact route and first camp of captivity and he even threw in a picture of me on the title page (not a good thing).. In the middle of the article is a full centerfold of the route which also gives me a credit. (that part was a good thing ha ha). Margot Mifflin came the closest as saying the camp was likely at Congress-which it wasnt. Mginty was guessing all over the place all the way to the grand canyon. Next edition of her book she is adjusting it for the new findings. Also something else. THE FIRST CAMP OF CAPTIVITY IS SITTING FOR ALL TO SEE AND YOU CAN PARK RIGHT AT IT WITH A JEEP. Also where they first encountered the indians and made to stand on sticks and spit on that exact spot is not even 200 feet from the highway (eagle eye road). The next morning they were walked up to the main camp and the exact pool which they drew water from is sitting right there totally unchanged. When at the camp you look to the north and you are looking at the exact slope that the Mojave came down with the wife and horse. I could go on for hours.
I'm still trying to figure out your comment that the youngest kidnapped girl did not die from mistreatment. You might want to read the book dictated by Olive. I would call slow starvation, malnutrition, beatings, and exposure to the elements -- which cumulatively resulted in the younger girl's death, mistreatment.
Brian McGinty's book paints a somewhat different picture--including that their capture was one of relative benevolence--after they were sold by their abductors to the Mojave Indians. The Oatman girls became part of the chief's family. The malnutrition was also part of the Indian's life, owing to insufficient food supplies, and apparently Mary Ann's death was due to her inability to adjust to the rigors of Indian life. Olive herself had kind words for the Mojaves.
I am not sure of who is replying to who in the comments so can get in trouble. but to keep it short since I am busy you need to study the subject matter--you know absolutely zero.
Ok so I will invest some time in this again. Olive and Mary Ann were both fully indianized. They hated the first camp of captivity but even then they were accepted in after the first weeks. I go to that exact camp often. Do you?
I know that farm and have worked on it as a contractor many times. That particular part of the river bottom is garbage farmland, not prime land. Theres very little ground water and not enough rain to grow any significant crops.
People thought (and still do) they can go anywhere they want when in truth all of the "settlers" were trespassing on land where Native Americans had (and still do) live for tens of thousands of years. Natives attacked those who shouldn't be there because they were protecting their land. People expected them to simply step aside and let someone else have it. How would you like it if someone came on your land and told you to get off?
Native American groups also fought among themselves. It wasn't all-loving and peaceful. Whether the Europeans were present or not, it was a violent scene.
@@W7DSY Sorry guy, but the fact that Native American groups fought among themselves does not in any way excuse the fact that full scale genocide was committed by white invaders. Calling them "settlers" is quite a euphemism. You failed to answer Connie's question. How would you like it if I came to your house, killed your family, and stole your land?
The war between the settlers and the Indians was brutal and I am eternally grateful to the settlers for winning. Man has killed his fellow man and taken his women and land since time began.
@@W7DSY I can't think of any war that was handled "well." When the Nazis attacked east into Poland and then Russia in 1941 it was genocidal in the extreme.
Great. Yes, we who live here love it. Not for everyone, of course. You're always welcome back. A couple of years ago, my wife and I enjoyed London. Hard to imagine two more diverse places.
I can't imagine the hardships those pioneers put up with. For instance, at the bottom of this rise from the Gila River to the top of the bluff, they had to unload the wagon and hand carry their goods up to the top. The oxen weren't strong enough to pull a loaded wagon. And they did this many times on their journey.
@@W7DSY Me, neither. When you stop and think about what your ancestors been through, I mean, it had to go back thousands and thousands of years, right? And we are here today to discuss this fact and we're not even face to face talking! Point is, we're spoiled, lol.
@@radrich227 you are exactly correct. But not all the world is spoiled. I think about that, because I have a garbage disposer in my sink that has a better diet than many people on this weary planet.
@@W7DSY I mean, here in America, you really do have the choice if you want to be homeless or not. I can't speak on everyone's situation, but there is help if you really want it. And even if you are homeless, some/most are still able to carry on day to day. Same for all the other circumstances people find themselves in that places them in undesirable predicaments.
Read the account many years ago, very sad, but inspiring that Olive survived all the hardships. Could you not get to the actual graves? I have seen photos, but had no idea it would be so difficult to see where it took place. I read that they stopped at, I think it was Maricopa springs? where is that and is there anything to see?
this video doesn't make any sense....why is there a memorial at that spot, away from the massacre site and away from the graves.....and if you did not go to the graves then what was the point of the video?
I can't answer anything as to why certain things are where they are; they just are. I don't know where the actual graves are for one, but they aren't here. The point of the video is to take the viewer to where the massacre occurred, show the physical evidences for the many wagons/stages that came that way, and to show the memorial.
I have tried to reach the massacre site several times, while driving between Texas and California. I went past Painted Rocks and crossed the Gila River, but was afraid I would get stuck in the sand in my two-wheel drive vehicle. I heard there's another approach, farther west. Is this approach from the riverbed, or from the tableland?
In good weather the approach can be made by car. Go to the Sentinel Exit west of Gila Bend about 30 miles. Take the paved road about 1 mile north to Oatman Rd. Then it's approximately 8 more miles and turn left. You must watch closely for the turn. Then another 1+ mile to the site. Stay with the most-travelled path. In a passenger car, it will be slow going. Don't attempt it in wet weather.
@@W7DSY So, is that the approach where you drive by Painted Rocks, and past the farm house and irrigated fields, arriving at the base of the lava escarpment? Or is it the approach farther west on the Interstate, farther from Gila Bend, up on the "Tableland" (as Rev. Spafford called it in "The Captivity of the Oatman Girls")?
@@W7DSY Thanks. Considering rocks, would you think street truck tires would be inadequate? I have driven over sharp rocks in a minivan and gotten flat tires in the past. Once I got two on the same trip. Wondering if I should rent an off-road vehicle.
Have friends moving to fort mohave arizona. I'm considering the move as well looking to leave california. Visited Laughlin oatman and Phoenix while out there earlier this year. Do u reccomend moving out there
Yes, for any number of reasons. However, unless you can deal with the heat, best to move to the higher elevations, Prescott, Flagstaff, etc. I don't mind the heat, so live in Phoenix. BTW, we came here from Santa Cruz 20 years ago.
I been to the massacre site ,,,,,, I been to the graves , plus there is more graves to the east of where the oatmans where buried, there was a stage stop there, I been to where there heel the girls be moving to the north to trade the girls,,,,, I live out in that area,
@@W7DSY o k makes sense, never been to oatman arizona, lived in phoenix for a while, but would love to go to oatman for the history and the burrows, looks like a GREAT LITTLE town.
A couple of small corrections. The massacre was dusk on feb 18th 1851 as a full moon rose. The date on the stone is a mistake. Lorenzo was not thrown over the cliff that was false hoax put out by the old time writers. He was pulled over to a small clearing where the boulders were missing simply to rifle his stuff not to throw him over. He was in fact thought to be dead and likely was saved by the cold temps of the night putting him almost like in a chilled suspended animation. He did wake up several times but could only get to his hands and knees and looked out and thought he was looking over a cliff. In fact he was on rim of a tumble of boulders when he did semi concious stumble down in the morning hours and blacked out again about 60 feet down the hill. He woke up and looked up and saw and commented "about the blood on the rocks showing he had stumbled down the hill".. They hiked them 64 miles north through the 2 ravines and then further to "the first camp of captivity"--which I go to often. If you are interested possibly we can hook up since nobody has been to the various sites in the books except myself. The route and camp which I solved is in march issue of True West magazine 2018.. My picture is on the title page and the route map shows my name.
I would love to go as well. Very knteresting
like you were there
Looked up that magazine issue......couldn’t find a map or anything like that....So how true is it and your version?......I doubt any
Thanks . We are heading out that way and am taking a two wheel drive truck ( GMC sierra) just to the massacre site then turning around. I have a very uncomfortable jeep but don't want to be uncomfortable today and thanks for not adding music. I for one like hearing all the road and cab noises because it adds a extra bonus. For me it's like being there! Thanks man
I was on youtube when you posted. You shouldn't have any trouble at all getting there, since it's dry. Just watch for sharp rocks.
your best bet is to go in from the painted rocks area. The farmers are not bad guys and you can drive in and park just below the massacre site. Legally the dirt road cannot be shut off to the memorial anyway. Note that the date on the gravesite is a mistake. The bones are no longer there most likely. Dont forget after you walk up to the massacre sign that face north towards the first ravine they went through. But over a hundred feet or so along the edge of the cliff is the perfect clean flat spot they pulled Lorenzo over to to go through his pockets and stuff. Crouch down and look out a couple feet from the edge and Lorenzo thought he was looking over a cliff during the night. now stand up-turns out its not a cliff at all. while walking up or down on the north side of the basalt trail they went up you can step over about 100 feet and look up where Lorenzo lay. You then are standing in the exact spot they drew the picture of him looking up seeing the wagon and the slope he stumbled down. He lay there and woke up in the sun and started his famous crawl. (he saw no wagon by the way-it was out of view they drew it in for viewers also they drew it backwards.) As you look north and west a bit you are looking at Oatman mountain-and the first ravine they went up with bloody bare feet. They simply walked at first across the desert pavement anyone could do it barefoot. The bloody feet came from exactly what she said-the final few hundred feet approaching the saddle of the ravine. Up at the top of the ravine is a pile of rocks--I placed a time capsule message in a bottle there. That is where they first slept. Then then went down the ravine towards the flat open area below where the other indians had walked the cattle over along the bottom east side of the mountain. After 24 hours they had barely walked 7 miles-thus confusing researchers. Should you join "in search of Olive Oatman" on facebook all the documents are there for anyone to view. The main one is "the amazing 7 miles"--in which over 20 pages of the stratton book in fact only cover 7 miles. The writing loops forwards and then doubles back several times. When I broke that code it then opened up the exact route to the first camp of captivity including where they shot the arrow at her in ravine2. A good read by the way is March 2018 of true west magazine and you can see the exact route and first camp of captivity and he even threw in a picture of me on the title page (not a good thing).. In the middle of the article is a full centerfold of the route which also gives me a credit. (that part was a good thing ha ha). Margot Mifflin came the closest as saying the camp was likely at Congress-which it wasnt. Mginty was guessing all over the place all the way to the grand canyon. Next edition of her book she is adjusting it for the new findings. Also something else. THE FIRST CAMP OF CAPTIVITY IS SITTING FOR ALL TO SEE AND YOU CAN PARK RIGHT AT IT WITH A JEEP. Also where they first encountered the indians and made to stand on sticks and spit on that exact spot is not even 200 feet from the highway (eagle eye road). The next morning they were walked up to the main camp and the exact pool which they drew water from is sitting right there totally unchanged. When at the camp you look to the north and you are looking at the exact slope that the Mojave came down with the wife and horse. I could go on for hours.
Awesome, great filming, love your videos !
Thank you sir.
I'm still trying to figure out your comment that the youngest kidnapped girl did not die from mistreatment. You might want to read the book dictated by Olive. I would call slow starvation, malnutrition, beatings, and exposure to the elements -- which cumulatively resulted in the younger girl's death, mistreatment.
Brian McGinty's book paints a somewhat different picture--including that their capture was one of relative benevolence--after they were sold by their abductors to the Mojave Indians. The Oatman girls became part of the chief's family. The malnutrition was also part of the Indian's life, owing to insufficient food supplies, and apparently Mary Ann's death was due to her inability to adjust to the rigors of Indian life. Olive herself had kind words for the Mojaves.
@@W7DSY this is closest to correct.. Pikes peak has not the slightest idea what the hell he is talking about
@@W7DSY thats putting it mildly.
I am not sure of who is replying to who in the comments so can get in trouble. but to keep it short since I am busy you need to study the subject matter--you know absolutely zero.
Ok so I will invest some time in this again. Olive and Mary Ann were both fully indianized. They hated the first camp of captivity but even then they were accepted in after the first weeks. I go to that exact camp often. Do you?
Really enjoyed this RUclips video! It managed to get me to Google "The Oatman Massacre" and read up on some interesting American history.
A great book is one by Brian McGinty, called "The Oatman Massacre: A Tale of Desert Captivity and Survival". It really fleshes out the whole story.
I know that farm and have worked on it as a contractor many times. That particular part of the river bottom is garbage farmland, not prime land. Theres very little ground water and not enough rain to grow any significant crops.
People thought (and still do) they can go anywhere they want when in truth all of the "settlers" were trespassing on land where Native Americans had (and still do) live for tens of thousands of years. Natives attacked those who shouldn't be there because they were protecting their land. People expected them to simply step aside and let someone else have it. How would you like it if someone came on your land and told you to get off?
Native American groups also fought among themselves. It wasn't all-loving and peaceful. Whether the Europeans were present or not, it was a violent scene.
@@W7DSY Sorry guy, but the fact that Native American groups fought among themselves does not in any way excuse the fact that full scale genocide was committed by white invaders. Calling them "settlers" is quite a euphemism. You failed to answer Connie's question. How would you like it if I came to your house, killed your family, and stole your land?
The war between the settlers and the Indians was brutal and I am eternally grateful to the settlers for winning. Man has killed his fellow man and taken his women and land since time began.
The Indian Wars were not handled well. It was genocidal. And the brutalities came from both sides. I'll let God decide the rest.
@@W7DSY I can't think of any war that was handled "well." When the Nazis attacked east into Poland and then Russia in 1941 it was genocidal in the extreme.
Very interesting video. Thanks
Thanks, Ezequiel.
Interesting. We have travelled twice to AZ from the UK love it.
Great. Yes, we who live here love it. Not for everyone, of course. You're always welcome back. A couple of years ago, my wife and I enjoyed London. Hard to imagine two more diverse places.
@@W7DSY We live in Manchester in north England. We stayed at the White Stal. Ranch both times. Loved it.
Can you imagine traveling that trail way back when in a covered wagon? Me neither.
I can't imagine the hardships those pioneers put up with. For instance, at the bottom of this rise from the Gila River to the top of the bluff, they had to unload the wagon and hand carry their goods up to the top. The oxen weren't strong enough to pull a loaded wagon. And they did this many times on their journey.
@@W7DSY Me, neither. When you stop and think about what your ancestors been through, I mean, it had to go back thousands and thousands of years, right? And we are here today to discuss this fact and we're not even face to face talking! Point is, we're spoiled, lol.
@@radrich227 you are exactly correct. But not all the world is spoiled. I think about that, because I have a garbage disposer in my sink that has a better diet than many people on this weary planet.
@@W7DSY LOL, I meant we as U.S. citizens, lol. Sorry about that.
@@W7DSY I mean, here in America, you really do have the choice if you want to be homeless or not. I can't speak on everyone's situation, but there is help if you really want it. And even if you are homeless, some/most are still able to carry on day to day. Same for all the other circumstances people find themselves in that places them in undesirable predicaments.
Oatman is a champion place for rockhounds.
You're probably thinking of the town of Oatman which is far away from here. There are plenty of rock here but I don't think they're collectible.
Read the account many years ago, very sad, but inspiring that Olive survived all the hardships. Could you not get to the actual graves? I have seen photos, but had no idea it would be so difficult to see where it took place. I read that they stopped at, I think it was Maricopa springs? where is that and is there anything to see?
Don't know where Maricopa Springs is. I shd try to find out abt the actual graves.
this video doesn't make any sense....why is there a memorial at that spot, away from the massacre site and away from the graves.....and if you did not go to the graves then what was the point of the video?
I can't answer anything as to why certain things are where they are; they just are. I don't know where the actual graves are for one, but they aren't here. The point of the video is to take the viewer to where the massacre occurred, show the physical evidences for the many wagons/stages that came that way, and to show the memorial.
I have tried to reach the massacre site several times, while driving between Texas and California. I went past Painted Rocks and crossed the Gila River, but was afraid I would get stuck in the sand in my two-wheel drive vehicle. I heard there's another approach, farther west. Is this approach from the riverbed, or from the tableland?
In good weather the approach can be made by car. Go to the Sentinel Exit west of Gila Bend about 30 miles. Take the paved road about 1 mile north to Oatman Rd. Then it's approximately 8 more miles and turn left. You must watch closely for the turn. Then another 1+ mile to the site. Stay with the most-travelled path. In a passenger car, it will be slow going. Don't attempt it in wet weather.
@@W7DSY So, is that the approach where you drive by Painted Rocks, and past the farm house and irrigated fields, arriving at the base of the lava escarpment? Or is it the approach farther west on the Interstate, farther from Gila Bend, up on the "Tableland" (as Rev. Spafford called it in "The Captivity of the Oatman Girls")?
@@tomfuller5585 Table land.
@@W7DSY Thanks. Considering rocks, would you think street truck tires would be inadequate? I have driven over sharp rocks in a minivan and gotten flat tires in the past. Once I got two on the same trip. Wondering if I should rent an off-road vehicle.
@@tomfuller5585 If you're in doubt, rent a vehicle.
Have friends moving to fort mohave arizona. I'm considering the move as well looking to leave california. Visited Laughlin oatman and Phoenix while out there earlier this year. Do u reccomend moving out there
Yes, for any number of reasons. However, unless you can deal with the heat, best to move to the higher elevations, Prescott, Flagstaff, etc. I don't mind the heat, so live in Phoenix. BTW, we came here from Santa Cruz 20 years ago.
You can eliminate the intro music. I come to learn history, not atttend a music concert.
That's good. If you ever get around to posting your own videos, you can do yours without music.
I been to the massacre site ,,,,,, I been to the graves , plus there is more graves to the east of where the oatmans where buried, there was a stage stop there, I been to where there heel the girls be moving to the north to trade the girls,,,,, I live out in that area,
The other graves nearby are those of the Fourr family, and as I recall he was an agent for the Butterfield stage. Thanks for your comments.
Whys he stating "The Hila river" wait a minute..the Colorado River !!!
No, that's the bluff above the Gila River.
very interesting, why were they buried so far from the massacre site, unless they died later trying to get to help or safety
Because the ground is so bad at the massacre site. It's about 50% volcanic rock and who knows what's 1 foot under ground.
@@W7DSY o k makes sense, never been to oatman arizona, lived in phoenix for a while, but would love to go to oatman for the history and the burrows, looks like a GREAT LITTLE town.