The fact that RM ever even got to the heights it did is indicative of how insane the hysteria was from 2020-2022. They literally look like toy watches.
People in the industry hate to discuss one point regarding FP Journe. They do not want to point a finger at a gray market dealer. These watches are phenomenal, but the reason for their incredible appreciation is that Watchbox tried to corner the market, buy up all they could, raise the social media attention, then price them at insane prices. They are presently sitting on an incredible number of them. Did the same to a lesser extent with some other brands, such as DeBethune. A few other gray market dealers did hint at this, like Roman Scharf from LB, but very passively…. John, I would love to see you address this. Thank you.
For those that don't understand. RM's are used for international money laundering. You can easily move money on your wrist to other countries. That's why they're so popular.
As someone that works in international finance with Anti Money Laundering and Compliance...this is 100% true. There is no other reason to buy such an ugly eyesore.
Managing Money is different from accumulating wealth, and the lack of investment education in schools may explain why people struggle to maintain their financial gains. The examples you provided are relevant, and I personally benefited from the market crisis, as I embrace challenging times, while orders tend to avoid them. Well, at least my advisor does too.
I don’t think I need a finance advisor. I can manage my own Money and investments. I don’t want to pay someone else to tell me what to do with my own hard-earned cash.
@@BendyChoy That is a risky attitude,you might be missing out on some valuable opportunities and strategies that a finance advisor can offer. A finance advisor can help you plan for your short term and long-term goals, optimize the tax situation, diversify your portfolio, and avoid costly mistakes.
I bought solid gold Omega and Cartier both around USD11,000. they both came with solid gold bracelets. that's value for me. If no one wants watches in the future, I'll still have 18kt gold remaining
Honestly its really nice to start aeeing a lot of the hype going away. And seeing the collectors finally get control of the market. All for the vintage cartiers/lapis piagets.
@@BobbyDazzler888 yea I'm hoping things go back to what they were pre pandemic. Surprisingly I'm now on the waitlist at vacheron and hoping to find a good used Cartier galbee burgundy dial as well. :). Hope you have a nice day and wear all your watches in good health.
@@golfinguru11 never cared for the royal oak or nautilus. Going for an overseas Blue dial and should be getting one next year according to my boutique.
First of all I must disclose I am prejudiced for Swiss watches that are automatics. That said I think one of the most underrated of these today is Tissot. It has fine craftmanship and quality components in a watch that keeps great time and most of all is a fantastic value new, priced well under it's more popular and pricer cousins.
Very good points, I agree 100%. I’m now 53 and find myself getting back to the historical brands from my dad and grandfather. Brands like Omega, Longines, Rolex, Cartier, and even Panerai scratch the itch for now.
Dude, as long as FP Journes and RMs are unobtainable at retail and are selling for over retail on the market, you can’t really say they’re struggling. Prices are dropping but they’re still so far above retail that your point doesn’t make sense.
@@samuelburton5576 “losing their luster” relative to what? 2 years ago? Hasn’t practically everything lost luster compared to the stimulus-fueled mania of Covid? Journe has actually held its value BETTER than most. Compare the 5711 price drop (it’s halved) to chronometre bleu (it’s over double retail and close to all time high). Walk into a Journe boutique and ask for anything non-quartz. You will be laughed out of the store. Same with RM and anything desirable.
@@samuelburton5576 also, “watch dealer” is a broad term. Does your local used Chevrolet dealer know more about Ferrari sales than you or I? Probably not. They don’t typically deal in six-figure watches. That they occasionally get one or two doesn’t make them experts.
I feel Richard Mille and F.P. Journe are overrated. If you're looking for excellent craftsmanship without the hype, Glashütte Original is a great choice. They offer top-notch quality and real watchmaking at reasonable prices.
Journe is not overrated at all 🤣 I literally went to their store today and the pieces are mind blowing in person. Rolex, Omega and even holy trinity keep pumping out traditional designs with minor changes and Journe is coming out with totally new designs and complications.
F.P. Journe has a number of bitter rumours being spread about him, which is why theres a drop in interest in his watches. Richard Mille is just old now. Nobody wants to pay $1,000,000+ for a metal Happy Meal toy. Ming is...meh.
The hype on RM was crazy, but there was much hyperbole for Journe and Ming too. I'm not surprised in the pullback that people are buying safety. If the economic downturn persists and worsens brands with long histories have dealt with such before. If anyone got burned by the hype I've no sympathy. I took a big hit on some Tulip bulbs in the past so I wasn't going to be taken twice. Thanks for some truth telling John.
As a non-snob, for the vast majority of the time, I judge the individual watch model itself, not the brand who makes it. Although that said, there are certain things that brands can do that either step up or step down their image overall (such as gold plating a watch even when other models from that same brand are solid precious metal). That’s why a bespoke model from an independent suits me well. I helped design all elements of the dial layout and finish of mine. When I look at my watch I know that nobody else in the world has one just like it. It wouldn’t sell for much but that’s not the point. It’s an heirloom. And one thing I can tell you for certain - its blue dial blows the dials of a Chronometre Bleu and a VC Overseas Blue out of the water! But what do Piaget, Chopard, Cartier, and a few others have in common? - They’re brands that primarily make jewelry. Watches are their secondary product. Personally, I like that because even though not necessarily their primary product, they still do a mighty fine job of it and often times you can get a lot of bang for the buck. Also, these jewelry-making watchmakers often put jeweler’s touches and finishes on their watches that non-jewelry making watchmakers don’t do. For example, the blue sapphire cabochons on Cartier watches - they’re a really nice touch! Same goes for opaline and lapis lazuli dials on Piagets - they’re amazing! You won’t find these types of touches on non-jewelry making watchmakers. And so for me, these are great non-snob brands.
FP Journes (as well as other brands) went up dramatically after the pandemic. The shortage and spike in prices was driven by the production stoppage caused by the pandemic. FPJ watches went though the roof-Bleus were going for $100,000. Now prices have gone down. However, a 30% drop from $100,000 is $70,000 (for a $20,000 watch?!) is still more than triple what a Chronometre Bleu costs before the pandemic. Pre-pandemic FPJs entry level were around $20,000. Now they're $40,000 MSRP and even at that price they still have waiting lists. Also, FPJ got rid of their ADs and everything is going through their Boutiques. The one in NYC now requires an appointment to enter the shop. So I'm not surprised that Delray may not have the demand they used to. Those buyers are probably looking elsewhere for their FPJs.
Like with real estate when the bubble deflates the second and third row houses fall more in price and we had a huge bubble. Personally I always went with the top Swiss brands (R, PP,) but even these prices have come down significantly. I don't whine because I only bought pieces that pleased my eyes because nothing is worse than looking a money pit that's ugly. Frankly I don't know where things are headed medium to longer term especially after this boom and presentations like this one are helpful to get a clue. RM by the way firmly resided on my avoid list because it's been hyped via celebrities similar to Hublot and Frank Muller.
I just added the Piaget Polo Skeleton Blue, what a gorgeous and comfortable watch, so much value, the brand reminds me of my late mother, she was all intellect, class and love, it was her only luxury watch and she passed it on to the next generation
Great video. Thank you for the insider perspective. I have owned a bicolor Cartier Santos Carree for decades that was handed down to me from my wife’s family. It has been crazy to see the value of it climb the last year and now start seeing them on IG all the time. Incidentally, I have bought a Pelagos and have an Omega and a Rolex on my future buy list - seems like I am just part of the herd….
I’ve been a Tudor fanboy for a number of years. Particularly the original Pelagos LHD, and now the “standard” Pelagos FXD MN. Both of the above are titanium. Their movements are certified. They each come with a spare strap too. The LHD still has the best clasp in the dive watch segment. And both cost under £3,000 GBP each. What’s not to like?
I get why Ming is dropping. They are nice, but so very similar like you said. I've seen them and said "Those are nice," and that's the end of it, never had an urge to try to save up my pennies to get one, couldn't care less if I never own a Ming.
If a brand needs celebrity endorsement to sell watches , it suggests a lot of it is hypr and will always fail eventually. True quality should sell with or without endorsements
I think the great thing is that watches are being bought now by enthusiasts at good prices. Personally I managed to get a UN, Chopard at super discounted prices off the secondhand market because those pieces were bundled purchases for their hype pieces
Good info, but would have been nice to know what the MRP was for these brands watches. Lockdown/COVID prices were just ridiculous, everything is falling in price to a degree now. Look, if these watches are still selling for 4, 5,6 x their MRP then the brands are doing OK, and it's people that bought at the peak and are wanting out before they loose their shirts.
For me I only collect old world brands i like the history it comes with them ,, its nice to see the independent brands and their inventions but i don't collect them Everyone has his own point of view in the end..
Ming has the best case/ lugs ever, just perfect, FP Journe it's up there among the best there is, but the prices are crazy, RM it's an aesthetics aberration.
As an owner of 3 MING watches, their case tolerances are beyond any other micro brand, the inversion, parallax shadow effect are something you need to experience in the metal to truly appreciate it! I think once you have a MING watch you'll be compelled to own another imo.
The reality is that it "sinks in " eventually. The RM's have never been a fine watch but a fade for those that are more interested in calling the attention than having a fine timepiece. The publicity stunt that RM pulled off giving them away for nothing to movie and sports stars was brilliant, and even if they tank, they have made so much money on them that it does not matter what happens to them in value , as they have nothing special but their "bad taste" size and look for what they are.. A Casio SHOCK is more atractive and at the right price for what it is.. These lines as RM, is simply salling on "who has it " instead for "what it is... Great reporting!!!
FP Journe are incredible watches. If those prices are crashing that’s pretty exciting frankly. At the end of the day though the manufacturers won’t feel any sting until after market prices drop below MSRP. Yeah watch prices have crashed but they’re still elevated.
I think you’re missing what’s happening John. I think that many collectors at higher end brands are valuing relationships with the brand vs buying for hype and crypto money buying a RM, FPJ etc . There is zero point in buying FPJ and RM from a secondary dealer because you miss the added real value in the community around these smaller independents. They aren’t calling you because you are just selling a watch above retail and the brands don’t want that. The last year has been a huge shift to retail vs grey and the lower stuff you are buying just a watch and so buying from you at DelRay makes sense because they can get it cheaper than retail. RM and FPJ have longer waiting list and are more collector focused than most brands. They are selling more than ever and the increase in inventory in chrono24 is crypto or watch hype status dealers dumping the second hand RM that they had but true collectors and the brand are holding on to them and retail is long wait lists and very strong demand amount high end collectors.
You are simply guessing at this point because you don't want to see or hear this. RM watches are tremendously overrated and hyped. Hope your not a sucker who bought at the height of the market
I’m a neutral observer-not a fan of the 3 brands you mentioned that are crashing, nor any of the brands that you me mentioned that are thriving. I don’t worry about resale value. I love my watches and can easily afford the ones I buy. While I love and own Zenith and Oris, my interest also lies in unique, smaller, independent and relatively under the radar brands like Fortis, Doxa, Fears, Minase’, etc.
I loved that video so much, it was like watching a master chef at work. The way they handled every element was so effortless and perfect, it was like they were dancing with the ingredients. And the final product was an absolute masterpiece, a symphony of flavors that left my taste buds singing. I'm so glad I watched that video, it was an experience I won't soon forget.
Great analysis - as an average joe, i'm a seiko guy. Can get a wide variety for a decent price. I have may 10 all of which were between $200-$500. Lately ive been getting into these so called 'custom' watches that are poor lookalikes to more popular brands. For $100 its just a cool thing to own (most if not all use seiko movements). My dream line up as a 'reasonable' buyer with a regular 9-5 job, cartier santos, rolex explorer or datejust, tudor gmt. Brietling navitimer, omega dark side Ive also like exploring the less expensive movie watches, mostly seikos - the arnie, ripley, james bond, etc
I like overprice basketball sneakers, PC gaming and watches. All three you starting to see resellers move to other markets. All this inflation and hype was cause by many flippers and people trying to make a quick buck. I hate to say it but many got into major debts buying investment pieces or sneakers that will gain value thinking the market will continue. I keep seen posts on watch forums asking why X brand don't hold it's value or what's the best watch under 1k to hold or surpass it's value.
Really interesting to hear which brands are diving or rising. About 4 years ago, try as I might I just couldn’t get hold of a Ming. Since then my taste has changed so no longer wowed by the brand. I totally agree about Cartier, I bought a Santos several years ago when they weren’t as popular. Another brand I bought was Bvlguari. I think they make really exceptional watches and I’ve definitely got my eyes on one of their ultra thin models
RM is a classic example of a company that has deliberately created hype and exclusivity but have gone too far. Not being able to enter a store and order something is a route to disaster in the end. Look if I want a Rolls Royce/Bentley/Ferrari etc I can go to a dealership and largely order what I want. Not always the case but generally speaking. Some watch brands, even Rolex of course, makes this very first step impossible so I am not surprised they are having trouble. I love RM and think they should make things more accessible and even brinf g out a more low end range for those who want to buy into the brand but don't have 100k to blow on a watch.
It JP is correct about Cartier Roadster I’m glad I’ve kept mine. I was surprised about FP Journe’s trend though, because as they seem to embody many desirable watch making elements I suspect they will retain some considerable inherent value sustainability. God bless your channel.
as someone in the comment section has already said;great to see collectors get control of the market. However, this could be over supply and no where else for reserved watches to go. Dealers, speculators and whatever other group of buyers probably exist most likely bought watches with the intention of a resale and the market is now exhausted. This is one view. Anyways, I have been very annoyed with the fact that brand new watches were or having been taking on very high premiums, look at the humble Rolex OP, this madness has to stop and really hope that one day it comes to an end
I could be wrong, but I believe Ming is trying to be like Rolex with the minimum differences between models. If that is the case, they still got a long way to go to be able to get people to support them like they support Rolex.
RM has the worst customer service I have every experienced. Sold it as well because I don't want to be associated with fake YT-"Celebreties" and all this showing off bullshit.
Being 'trendy' is ultimately a kiss of death, whether watches, fashion, restaurants, architecture. Initial pricing is driven by novelty, but eventually novelty falls into 'tired'. Quality which strongly respects tradition is slow to build, but it lasts.
I found Ming to be such a one hit wonder. When the same tunes are being played on the radio over and over again, you then realise just how limited and poor their repertoire is. Every watch is just the same monotonous variant of each other. Just another ‘Agent Smith’. Workmanship is good, but as you mentioned, they are stuck in a rut.
He’s not saying that at all. He’s saying most of the people “fiending” for RM&FP were never collectors and just hype/trend followers. And now there not interested so the market is flooded and prices are down. But the actual watch enthusiast are showing a lot more interest in these other brands.
funniest thing about FP Journe is when people said that it's like buying a Picasso!! LOOOOOOL. yeah no. they're OK. nothing extraordinary as pumped by certain youtube channels. Prices on Journes are going to absolutely crash further....think Franck Mueller type levels of crash. Nobody wants them...
Dealers were creating an artificial secondary market trading and executing higher prices with each other. No real market for items that aren’t truly rare.
hahahah--what if invicta gets to the price of a mille? we are all in trouble. 20 years ago invicta was still junk but at least they were not a laughing stock- now they make things that look like christmas decorations with a tiny dial in it somewhere. Absolutely hideous.
@@mtsaz100 My favorite Invicta is the Joker and is as dear to my heart as is my Speedmaster Dark Side of the Moon. And maybe as near to my heart as my Rolex. ;-)
Great video John. What do you think about the lockdowns pulling so much demand forward for sports watches that basically anyone who wanted one has one and * finally * we see a trend change towards dress watches? Any signs or thoughts on this? What would you be looking at?
A lot of the Covid boom was just grey dealers selling to each other and the end user is the one eating all that margin. Also, a lot of backpack dealers with their watch trader “university” courses trying to make a side hustle during the frenzy.
Thanks John P! I Never buy trendy watches! Only quality and reliability at a good price. RM, FP Journe and AP are for people with more money than brains. I am sorry!
I like FP and think a smart owner could step in now and pick up a desirable model. On RM and Ming, they don't move the needle for me. Patek is still the mountain top. I admit I'm starting to look at microbrands.
@@user-eq2lp4hh6s The fact is VC still can't make oversea chrono to be as slim as royak oak or can't even drive high demand for their dress watches like calatrava.
i never understood ming, they were ok, but the name just sounded like Chinese junk. richard mille - uh roman must be crying. FP Journe - i guess that was the one i had some faith in, lovely watches so i feel sad for them. The odd thing is companies like christopher ward and tissot, (both a lot cheaper for the quality) seem doing ok.
Yes, agree. Buying a PRX at $550 grey market and a CW 12 Model for $1,200 is where it's at. The other brands are just simply far too overpriced. I have two PRX (blue and the ice blue) and love them. People notice either of them and ask questions but don't notice my other watches. The companies in this range will survive just fine, but don't see Chopard, RM, IWC making it long-term.
Ming and RM are the Emperors new clothes…people need to stop trying to compete with celebrities/sportsmen where money has No relevance…Luxury timepieces have become objects of money laundering.
The fact that RM ever even got to the heights it did is indicative of how insane the hysteria was from 2020-2022. They literally look like toy watches.
Absolutely
Rich man's Invicta.
People in the industry hate to discuss one point regarding FP Journe. They do not want to point a finger at a gray market dealer. These watches are phenomenal, but the reason for their incredible appreciation is that Watchbox tried to corner the market, buy up all they could, raise the social media attention, then price them at insane prices. They are presently sitting on an incredible number of them. Did the same to a lesser extent with some other brands, such as DeBethune. A few other gray market dealers did hint at this, like Roman Scharf from LB, but very passively…. John, I would love to see you address this. Thank you.
For those that don't understand. RM's are used for international money laundering. You can easily move money on your wrist to other countries. That's why they're so popular.
yup.. has been going on for years. same as all the branded handbags. not gona mention which country in particular.
As someone that works in international finance with Anti Money Laundering and Compliance...this is 100% true. There is no other reason to buy such an ugly eyesore.
Like NFTs?
@@genie5320starts with chi ends with na
on point!!!! definitely in the middle east
Great video.
Happy I came across such informative video.
Managing Money is different from accumulating wealth, and the lack of investment education in schools may explain why people struggle to maintain their financial gains. The examples you provided are relevant, and I personally benefited from the market crisis, as I embrace challenging times, while orders tend to avoid them. Well, at least my advisor does too.
I don’t think I need a finance advisor. I can manage my own Money and investments. I don’t want to pay someone else to tell me what to do with my own hard-earned cash.
@@BendyChoy
That is a risky attitude,you might be missing out on some valuable opportunities and strategies that a finance advisor can offer. A finance advisor can help you plan for your short term and long-term goals, optimize the tax situation, diversify your portfolio, and avoid costly mistakes.
I bought solid gold Omega and Cartier both around USD11,000.
they both came with solid gold bracelets.
that's value for me.
If no one wants watches in the future, I'll still have 18kt gold remaining
RM is honestly way, way, way overpriced and the only people who will say they are not are those who own one.
Yessssss. Right on brother
They look horrible
Honestly its really nice to start aeeing a lot of the hype going away. And seeing the collectors finally get control of the market. All for the vintage cartiers/lapis piagets.
It will get better and better. Greys are still hopeful and holding on to the last threads,
@@BobbyDazzler888 yea I'm hoping things go back to what they were pre pandemic. Surprisingly I'm now on the waitlist at vacheron and hoping to find a good used Cartier galbee burgundy dial as well. :). Hope you have a nice day and wear all your watches in good health.
Good luck getting anything truly special at retail though. Nautilus, Royal Oak Jumbo, etc. are still unobtanium.
Don’t say that because that’s exactly what I’m looking at! As well as Breguet.
@@golfinguru11 never cared for the royal oak or nautilus. Going for an overseas Blue dial and should be getting one next year according to my boutique.
Ricard Mille watches look like Invicta on a bad day. It looks like pure crap
First of all I must disclose I am prejudiced for Swiss watches that are automatics. That said I think one of the most underrated of these today is Tissot. It has fine craftmanship and quality components in a watch that keeps great time and most of all is a fantastic value new, priced well under it's more popular and pricer cousins.
Very good points, I agree 100%. I’m now 53 and find myself getting back to the historical brands from my dad and grandfather. Brands like Omega, Longines, Rolex, Cartier, and even Panerai scratch the itch for now.
RM ….unless you get close, they look like something you could by from the jewelry counter at a mall department store, or TJ Maxx….
Collectors don't want to get burned and some probably have with the hype. Good to see established brands being in demand.
Dude, as long as FP Journes and RMs are unobtainable at retail and are selling for over retail on the market, you can’t really say they’re struggling. Prices are dropping but they’re still so far above retail that your point doesn’t make sense.
They are losing their luster. His point is right on. He is a watch dealer and I think he knows what he is talking about
@@samuelburton5576 “losing their luster” relative to what? 2 years ago? Hasn’t practically everything lost luster compared to the stimulus-fueled mania of Covid? Journe has actually held its value BETTER than most. Compare the 5711 price drop (it’s halved) to chronometre bleu (it’s over double retail and close to all time high). Walk into a Journe boutique and ask for anything non-quartz. You will be laughed out of the store. Same with RM and anything desirable.
@@samuelburton5576 also, “watch dealer” is a broad term. Does your local used Chevrolet dealer know more about Ferrari sales than you or I? Probably not. They don’t typically deal in six-figure watches. That they occasionally get one or two doesn’t make them experts.
I feel Richard Mille and F.P. Journe are overrated. If you're looking for excellent craftsmanship without the hype, Glashütte Original is a great choice. They offer top-notch quality and real watchmaking at reasonable prices.
So true. Lang and heyne if you want to step up even further.
My name is Roy too!! and yes Glashutte is soo incredibly under rated. I have one LOVE it.
Journe is absolutely not overrated...you're mad 😂
@@watching_nycLange is for people without personality. 😂
Journe is not overrated at all 🤣 I literally went to their store today and the pieces are mind blowing in person. Rolex, Omega and even holy trinity keep pumping out traditional designs with minor changes and Journe is coming out with totally new designs and complications.
F.P. Journe has a number of bitter rumours being spread about him, which is why theres a drop in interest in his watches.
Richard Mille is just old now. Nobody wants to pay $1,000,000+ for a metal Happy Meal toy.
Ming is...meh.
The hype on RM was crazy, but there was much hyperbole for Journe and Ming too. I'm not surprised in the pullback that people are buying safety. If the economic downturn persists and worsens brands with long histories have dealt with such before. If anyone got burned by the hype I've no sympathy. I took a big hit on some Tulip bulbs in the past so I wasn't going to be taken twice. Thanks for some truth telling John.
As a non-snob, for the vast majority of the time, I judge the individual watch model itself, not the brand who makes it. Although that said, there are certain things that brands can do that either step up or step down their image overall (such as gold plating a watch even when other models from that same brand are solid precious metal). That’s why a bespoke model from an independent suits me well. I helped design all elements of the dial layout and finish of mine. When I look at my watch I know that nobody else in the world has one just like it. It wouldn’t sell for much but that’s not the point. It’s an heirloom. And one thing I can tell you for certain - its blue dial blows the dials of a Chronometre Bleu and a VC Overseas Blue out of the water!
But what do Piaget, Chopard, Cartier, and a few others have in common? - They’re brands that primarily make jewelry. Watches are their secondary product. Personally, I like that because even though not necessarily their primary product, they still do a mighty fine job of it and often times you can get a lot of bang for the buck. Also, these jewelry-making watchmakers often put jeweler’s touches and finishes on their watches that non-jewelry making watchmakers don’t do. For example, the blue sapphire cabochons on Cartier watches - they’re a really nice touch! Same goes for opaline and lapis lazuli dials on Piagets - they’re amazing! You won’t find these types of touches on non-jewelry making watchmakers. And so for me, these are great non-snob brands.
FP Journes (as well as other brands) went up dramatically after the pandemic. The shortage and spike in prices was driven by the production stoppage caused by the pandemic. FPJ watches went though the roof-Bleus were going for $100,000. Now prices have gone down. However, a 30% drop from $100,000 is $70,000 (for a $20,000 watch?!) is still more than triple what a Chronometre Bleu costs before the pandemic. Pre-pandemic FPJs entry level were around $20,000. Now they're $40,000 MSRP and even at that price they still have waiting lists. Also, FPJ got rid of their ADs and everything is going through their Boutiques. The one in NYC now requires an appointment to enter the shop. So I'm not surprised that Delray may not have the demand they used to. Those buyers are probably looking elsewhere for their FPJs.
Like with real estate when the bubble deflates the second and third row houses fall more in price and we had a huge bubble. Personally I always went with the top Swiss brands (R, PP,) but even these prices have come down significantly. I don't whine because I only bought pieces that pleased my eyes because nothing is worse than looking a money pit that's ugly. Frankly I don't know where things are headed medium to longer term especially after this boom and presentations like this one are helpful to get a clue. RM by the way firmly resided on my avoid list because it's been hyped via celebrities similar to Hublot and Frank Muller.
The problem with RMs is not a tide issue, but all being in a lake gone dry...😮
I just added the Piaget Polo Skeleton Blue, what a gorgeous and comfortable watch, so much value, the brand reminds me of my late mother, she was all intellect, class and love, it was her only luxury watch and she passed it on to the next generation
Great video. Thank you for the insider perspective. I have owned a bicolor Cartier Santos Carree for decades that was handed down to me from my wife’s family. It has been crazy to see the value of it climb the last year and now start seeing them on IG all the time. Incidentally, I have bought a Pelagos and have an Omega and a Rolex on my future buy list - seems like I am just part of the herd….
Thanks! Very cool Cartier !
@@JohnPWatchesJohn, how is GP doing on the secondary market?
I personally like GP neo-vintage best. From the 1990s to the early 2000s.
That square Richard Mille is hideous. The Ming is appropriately named, it's a MINGER.
I’ve been a Tudor fanboy for a number of years. Particularly the original Pelagos LHD, and now the “standard” Pelagos FXD MN.
Both of the above are titanium. Their movements are certified. They each come with a spare strap too. The LHD still has the best clasp in the dive watch segment.
And both cost under £3,000 GBP each. What’s not to like?
I get why Ming is dropping. They are nice, but so very similar like you said. I've seen them and said "Those are nice," and that's the end of it, never had an urge to try to save up my pennies to get one, couldn't care less if I never own a Ming.
If a brand needs celebrity endorsement to sell watches , it suggests a lot of it is hypr and will always fail eventually. True quality should sell with or without endorsements
I think the great thing is that watches are being bought now by enthusiasts at good prices.
Personally I managed to get a UN, Chopard at super discounted prices off the secondhand market because those pieces were bundled purchases for their hype pieces
Jon P and Vinny are the two young critical thinkers in the RUclips watch space.
Yes, a vast majority of the others are "influencers" and should be on TikTok instead. That's you Roman Sharf and friends. ;-)
Wow no mentioned of THE Tim Mosso??!?!?
Good info, but would have been nice to know what the MRP was for these brands watches. Lockdown/COVID prices were just ridiculous, everything is falling in price to a degree now. Look, if these watches are still selling for 4, 5,6 x their MRP then the brands are doing OK, and it's people that bought at the peak and are wanting out before they loose their shirts.
For me I only collect old world brands i like the history it comes with them ,, its nice to see the independent brands and their inventions but i don't collect them Everyone has his own point of view in the end..
Your comment on Ming is pretty similar to how I feel about RM. They all look pretty much the same other than the color.
Ming has the best case/ lugs ever, just perfect, FP Journe it's up there among the best there is, but the prices are crazy, RM it's an aesthetics aberration.
I wouldn’t buy a Richard Mille even if it costs 10K I find them too big and too flashy
As an owner of 3 MING watches, their case tolerances are beyond any other micro brand, the inversion, parallax shadow effect are something you need to experience in the metal to truly appreciate it! I think once you have a MING watch you'll be compelled to own another imo.
Well said. I agree 100 percent.
Fp journe had nice watches for $20k to $30k. At the current hyped prices, they are dogs. A lot of collectors are gonna be left holding shit bags...
The reality is that it "sinks in " eventually.
The RM's have never been a fine watch but a fade for those that are more interested in calling the attention than having a fine timepiece.
The publicity stunt that RM pulled off giving them away for nothing to movie and sports stars was brilliant, and even if they tank, they have made so much money on them that it does not matter what happens to them in value , as they have nothing special but their "bad taste" size and look for what they are..
A Casio SHOCK is more atractive and at the right price for what it is..
These lines as RM, is simply salling on "who has it " instead for "what it is...
Great reporting!!!
Mille is just grotesque. I literally wouldn’t keep one if it were free. Disgusting watch.
FP Journe are incredible watches. If those prices are crashing that’s pretty exciting frankly.
At the end of the day though the manufacturers won’t feel any sting until after market prices drop below MSRP. Yeah watch prices have crashed but they’re still elevated.
In england something that's minging is slang for horrible and smelly.Chimes with my view of them.
I think you’re missing what’s happening John. I think that many collectors at higher end brands are valuing relationships with the brand vs buying for hype and crypto money buying a RM, FPJ etc . There is zero point in buying FPJ and RM from a secondary dealer because you miss the added real value in the community around these smaller independents. They aren’t calling you because you are just selling a watch above retail and the brands don’t want that. The last year has been a huge shift to retail vs grey and the lower stuff you are buying just a watch and so buying from you at DelRay makes sense because they can get it cheaper than retail. RM and FPJ have longer waiting list and are more collector focused than most brands. They are selling more than ever and the increase in inventory in chrono24 is crypto or watch hype status dealers dumping the second hand RM that they had but true collectors and the brand are holding on to them and retail is long wait lists and very strong demand amount high end collectors.
You are simply guessing at this point because you don't want to see or hear this. RM watches are tremendously overrated and hyped. Hope your not a sucker who bought at the height of the market
@@samuelburton5576 Using the same lines doesn’t prove a point. Calling something hype is usually a bandaid and doesn’t make a point.
There may be a lot of Journe on Chrono but they are still trading well above retail. It would be nice they came down some.
I’m a neutral observer-not a fan of the 3 brands you mentioned that are crashing, nor any of the brands that you me mentioned that are thriving. I don’t worry about resale value. I love my watches and can easily afford the ones I buy. While I love and own Zenith and Oris, my interest also lies in unique, smaller, independent and relatively under the radar brands like Fortis, Doxa, Fears, Minase’, etc.
I loved that video so much, it was like watching a master chef at work. The way they handled every element was so effortless and perfect, it was like they were dancing with the ingredients. And the final product was an absolute masterpiece, a symphony of flavors that left my taste buds singing. I'm so glad I watched that video, it was an experience I won't soon forget.
Great analysis - as an average joe, i'm a seiko guy. Can get a wide variety for a decent price. I have may 10 all of which were between $200-$500. Lately ive been getting into these so called 'custom' watches that are poor lookalikes to more popular brands. For $100 its just a cool thing to own (most if not all use seiko movements).
My dream line up as a 'reasonable' buyer with a regular 9-5 job, cartier santos, rolex explorer or datejust, tudor gmt. Brietling navitimer, omega dark side
Ive also like exploring the less expensive movie watches, mostly seikos - the arnie, ripley, james bond, etc
I like overprice basketball sneakers, PC gaming and watches. All three you starting to see resellers move to other markets. All this inflation and hype was cause by many flippers and people trying to make a quick buck. I hate to say it but many got into major debts buying investment pieces or sneakers that will gain value thinking the market will continue. I keep seen posts on watch forums asking why X brand don't hold it's value or what's the best watch under 1k to hold or surpass it's value.
Really interesting to hear which brands are diving or rising. About 4 years ago, try as I might I just couldn’t get hold of a Ming. Since then my taste has changed so no longer wowed by the brand. I totally agree about Cartier, I bought a Santos several years ago when they weren’t as popular. Another brand I bought was Bvlguari. I think they make really exceptional watches and I’ve definitely got my eyes on one of their ultra thin models
RM is a classic example of a company that has deliberately created hype and exclusivity but have gone too far. Not being able to enter a store and order something is a route to disaster in the end. Look if I want a Rolls Royce/Bentley/Ferrari etc I can go to a dealership and largely order what I want. Not always the case but generally speaking. Some watch brands, even Rolex of course, makes this very first step impossible so I am not surprised they are having trouble. I love RM and think they should make things more accessible and even brinf g out a more low end range for those who want to buy into the brand but don't have 100k to blow on a watch.
It JP is correct about Cartier Roadster I’m glad I’ve kept mine. I was surprised about FP Journe’s trend though, because as they seem to embody many desirable watch making elements I suspect they will retain some considerable inherent value sustainability. God bless your channel.
Thanks Paul. I have seen more interest in all back Cartier models, including the Roadster.
@@JohnPWatches thanks and you’re welcome
as someone in the comment section has already said;great to see collectors get control of the market. However, this could be over supply and no where else for reserved watches to go. Dealers, speculators and whatever other group of buyers probably exist most likely bought watches with the intention of a resale and the market is now exhausted. This is one view. Anyways, I have been very annoyed with the fact that brand new watches were or having been taking on very high premiums, look at the humble Rolex OP, this madness has to stop and really hope that one day it comes to an end
I could be wrong, but I believe Ming is trying to be like Rolex with the minimum differences between models. If that is the case, they still got a long way to go to be able to get people to support them like they support Rolex.
no way in hell would i buy a watch, or anything else, based on a celeb using it.
I still can't figure out why the watch market went berserk during the bug. Makes no sense.
One that seems to be catching traction is Massena Lab. Some of these might become pretty collectible.
RM has the worst customer service I have every experienced. Sold it as well because I don't want to be associated with fake YT-"Celebreties" and all this showing off bullshit.
Smart play
RM should have changed their Frank Muller shape long long back !!
Breguet will hold a special place for me no matter any hype
Great brand
Being 'trendy' is ultimately a kiss of death, whether watches, fashion, restaurants, architecture. Initial pricing is driven by novelty, but eventually novelty falls into 'tired'.
Quality which strongly respects tradition is slow to build, but it lasts.
I found Ming to be such a one hit wonder. When the same tunes are being played on the radio over and over again, you then realise just how limited and poor their repertoire is.
Every watch is just the same monotonous variant of each other. Just another ‘Agent Smith’.
Workmanship is good, but as you mentioned, they are stuck in a rut.
There seem to be stories circulating about Journe that may have put their watches off-side a bit. I guess that will resolve one way or another.
Just picked up a Roger Dubis H37 perpetual. Love it!
Great watch!
It all boils down to practicality. Price , maintenance (cost and availability watch tech), robustness . Niche brands can be quite a hassle to own.
I find it really hard to believe the same collectors who were fiending for RM and Journe now want the Pelagos and fucking Piaget.
He’s not saying that at all. He’s saying most of the people “fiending” for RM&FP were never collectors and just hype/trend followers. And now there not interested so the market is flooded and prices are down. But the actual watch enthusiast are showing a lot more interest in these other brands.
The RM dealer in our city, there typically one or two watches available which is the same same for AP here
Casio is about all i can afford. The sub 200$ models😢
You can't go wrong with a G-Shock though... 🙂👍
funniest thing about FP Journe is when people said that it's like buying a Picasso!! LOOOOOOL. yeah no. they're OK. nothing extraordinary as pumped by certain youtube channels. Prices on Journes are going to absolutely crash further....think Franck Mueller type levels of crash. Nobody wants them...
You’re pretty smart if you know what a “Veblen Good” is. 👍
Thanks
Dealers were creating an artificial secondary market trading and executing higher prices with each other. No real market for items that aren’t truly rare.
Glad there is a pullback with Ming. I missed the boat on the anniversary chronograph, maybe I get another chance 😏
When a Richard Mille gets close to the price on an Invicta, then I'm in. ;-) I have my CC ready and waiting. ;-)
hahahah--what if invicta gets to the price of a mille? we are all in trouble. 20 years ago invicta was still junk but at least they were not a laughing stock- now they make things that look like christmas decorations with a tiny dial in it somewhere. Absolutely hideous.
@@mtsaz100 My favorite Invicta is the Joker and is as dear to my heart as is my Speedmaster Dark Side of the Moon. And maybe as near to my heart as my Rolex. ;-)
Sadly, they look similar
Hi, I can probably get an oysterflex daytona from AD. I want the watch for myself, and I’m not planning to flip it. Does it usually holds its value?
What’s the point of knowing the future market if your planning to not sell the watch? I say enjoy the wristtime! Or showcase it on your desk.
Fashion watches are fleeting, stylish watches are forever
Greetings
What are your thoughts about Brequet?
Do you think about the latest trend towards it?
I like Breguet though would target them pre-owned for good cost savings. High quality but low demand compared to their competitors such as Vacheron.
Great video John. What do you think about the lockdowns pulling so much demand forward for sports watches that basically anyone who wanted one has one and * finally * we see a trend change towards dress watches? Any signs or thoughts on this? What would you be looking at?
A lot of the Covid boom was just grey dealers selling to each other and the end user is the one eating all that margin. Also, a lot of backpack dealers with their watch trader “university” courses trying to make a side hustle during the frenzy.
I see collectors looking for good value in watches which overlooked dress watches can offer.
The microbrand space is exploding. I think in 50 years time some of the early microbrand pieces will be very sought after.
Thanks John P! I Never buy trendy watches! Only quality and reliability at a good price. RM, FP Journe and AP are for people with more money than brains. I am sorry!
Thanks for tuning in
Being a Tudor fan, I understand the appeal of the brand.
Yes, but watches at $4,000 USD but have an aluminum bezel, not too appealing just due to them being far overpriced for what you get.
Piaget - right up Federico's alley!
Good video and good for people who need to know about the market.
Thank you
Apparently FP Journe are being dumped by collectors after a very controversial dinner. Nico mentioned it.
Thanks for this. I still love my Tag Heuer Grand Carrera ;)
Another great video John 👏
I like FP and think a smart owner could step in now and pick up a desirable model. On RM and Ming, they don't move the needle for me. Patek is still the mountain top. I admit I'm starting to look at microbrands.
Only one guess here, suply meets demand! Finaly
I like the big 3 but I'm a Breguet fan.
There’s a reason why Stallone was trying to dump his RM collection a while back.
These watches are just insane prices why is a plastic watch worth £150000 it’s really mad.
The Vacheron you are wearing is the hype watch for every discouraged “collector” that couldn’t get the Nautilus or Royal Oak.
That Vacheron is a better watch than either the Nautilis or Royal oak😂😂
@@user-eq2lp4hh6s in which ways?
@@user-eq2lp4hh6s The fact is VC still can't make oversea chrono to be as slim as royak oak or can't even drive high demand for their dress watches like calatrava.
@@napaswar And AP can't make a Royal oak perpetual, as slim as an overseas, Moot point. 😂
@@user-eq2lp4hh6s Perpetual? AP RD2?
RM is the NFT of the watch brands
You forgot Roger Dubuis.
They're could dissapear any time now
i never understood ming, they were ok, but the name just sounded like Chinese junk. richard mille - uh roman must be crying. FP Journe - i guess that was the one i had some faith in, lovely watches so i feel sad for them. The odd thing is companies like christopher ward and tissot, (both a lot cheaper for the quality) seem doing ok.
Yes, agree. Buying a PRX at $550 grey market and a CW 12 Model for $1,200 is where it's at. The other brands are just simply far too overpriced. I have two PRX (blue and the ice blue) and love them. People notice either of them and ask questions but don't notice my other watches.
The companies in this range will survive just fine, but don't see Chopard, RM, IWC making it long-term.
I totally agree that the name “Ming” will prevent the brand from taking off.
I have the same thoughts, Ming just sounds bad for a watch brand.
RM sounds like Maserati . Always plenty available on the used market.
Come on...Richard Mille coming back to earth cant be catching anyone off guard...and 1200 for sale at one site...
Exactly. Too big for many to wear; too loud; and not safe in many major cities. A pullback should not be unexpected.
You can't go wrong with an Invicta Pro Diver auto, Casio Duro or Citizen Eco-drive.
Anyone that spends half a mil to over 2 for a Mille has rocks in their head.
Those rm things look like kids toys, cant imagine a grown-up wearing one.
Great video and your prices at Delray are very fair.
I know they are valuable, but to me Richard Mille watches still look like they're made by Lego.
2:45 - interesting KPI: 1200/5000
Great video , I agree with your analysis, peace ✌️
Ming and RM are the Emperors new clothes…people need to stop trying to compete with celebrities/sportsmen where money has No relevance…Luxury timepieces have become objects of money laundering.
No way Piaget is selling, is that for real?
No. Dealer hype. Maybe some of their niche vintage stuff, but their new stuff still sells at massive discounts.