Quality-whether in finishing, performance, or materials-correlates to price up to a certain point and within certain companies, but luxury brands by definition are disconnected from the usual cost-plus-margin pricing strategies because they're selling you the brand itself. Brands that lack status have to compete on product quality while brands that have high status can compete on perceived exclusivity. This is what allows Cartier to sell watches with simple steel cases, printed dials, and quartz movements for $3500, while a $350 Seiko 5 with a mechanical movement, applied markers, and complex case finishing is dismissed as overpriced.
Cartier watches are some of the worst value propositions out there. Their appeal seems to be based on a strange idea of retro chic nowadays. I kind of get how their watches developed a certain reputation in the 1970's, but I'm a tad baffled about their status now. I also understand why the Santos is appreciated, but the Tank is basic and really not much better than cheaper alternatives by Longines and co.
Quality is a very broad umbrella. The basic premise though is correct: there is diminishing returns as you spend more. It’s up to you whether those small differences matter to you. Emotional connection is what matters most.
Very true. Probably a small number of factories in South China making a lot of the basics. We’re buying the name and image in most cases. Quite an achievement for the new microbrands who do succeed.
Great video. This is topic that needs to be discussed. The reality is that with luxury watch brands you are paying mainly for brand identity (achieved primarily through high-profile marketing) and perceived quality. Wearing an expensive watch makes the owner look and feel rich/successful/special and if you're not too bothered about value for money and happy to pay vastly more than what a watch costs to manufacture, ship and distribute then that's fine, go ahead. I understand this and have no issue whatsover with it but have learnt over time (~30 years of collecting) that it's not for me. For those of us that regard value for money as important and aren't really out to make a statement, better to stick to lower tier brands that realistically are not that far behind in terms of design, build quality, accuracy, finish etc. As you say though, buy what you love. If a more affordable brand isn't going to give the x-factor/kudos/buzz (whatever) you are looking for then for goodness sake don't buy it. You only live once, owning the things that make you and you alone happy is what matters most. Know your sweet spot and stick with it in other words.
Realistic realism for a change - unlike certain other big YT watch channels that obviously have a ‘relationship’ with big group brands and treat their products/reviews accordingly. Bravo John.
If you look at the history of horology, then it's all about the movements. In comparison, case, dial and finish are mainly superfluous, even though they play a part. Brands may also influence your choice but are not necessarily an indicator of horological superiority.
This is very true in watches. Take the constant force tourb from GS for instance. Throw AP on the dial and it’s worth 10x just bc the name, not the intrinsic value
Remember that the main component of a watch for cost AND for quality /reliability is the movement. A high end movement for a 3 hander with date from Vaucher or Chronode or similar (higher than ETA or Sellita) will be a bit under $1000 for fairly low MOQ of 25 Vaucher's microrotors used to be about $1600 also MOQ 25. Vaucher's automatic tourbillion used to be around $8000 for MOQ 10. (These were pre-pandemic prices, around 2017, I haven't checked recently) Vaucher is the movement brand that is in the majority of Richard Mille watches for reference. So check the movement to complete watch price relationship.
@@javiersaturno9689 Minimum Order Quantity, the smallest order quantity that a manufacturer will sell, since they aren't retail items. So in Vaucher's case if you wanted a VMF-3002 automatic 3 hand movement from them you have to buy 25 Minimum at the ~$1000 price, so a $25000 order.
@@javiersaturno9689 My last message didn't post. MOQ is Minimum Order Quantity. Vaucher as a manufacturer/supplier sells batches of movements, not individually. So MOQ 25 means to buy their ~$1000 3 hand VMF-3002 it would be a $25000 order for 25 (or more) pieces. This is common for industry suppliers everywhere not just in watches, that sell to brands that make finished products using outsourced subcomponents. 25 is actually quite low as I've heard Sellita is something like MOQ 200. So while the individual movements may cost less the upfront capital investment can be similar or even more.
All good points John. It really pays to do your homework and buy the watch that meets your needs. Don't get caught up in the nonsense marketing and brand ambassadors. Focus on the details and you'll get the right watch for you.
Nice video :) I've just subscribed after watching a few of your videos. I love your pragmatism and your ability to cut through the hype and get right to the point.
I think that a free-sprung balance, a non-magnetic hairspring, a full balance bridge, and a COSC certification, should be the minimum specs of a watch worth settling on. Of course, buying and selling affordable watches for the purpose of having fun and testing things out is not a bad idea, but I don’t think a mechanical watch makes sense if it doesn’t at least keep comparable time to a digital or quartz watch. With that said, yes, Tudor are my favourite brand by a mile, and also, I think the Submariner costing 2X the retail of a Black Bay is outrageous. Tudor watches are an absolute bargain on the used market. It’s actually absurd what these watches trade for.
I still remember a short time ago there were these 2 entrepreneurs who wanted to make only 17 units of the world’s greatest watch, and they called it the Delray1. It sold out in less than an hour! Oh that was John P and Federico!
Sinn make great watches for the price , and there’s probably many more ,Nomos are good ,Atelier Wen make lovely watches for the price ,thanks 🏴👍❤️
It's funny. Over my life I have had over a hundred Seiko's. Most always Broke. So I moved to Invicta and Aragon. I love them. Their quality is amazing. I own Rolex, Seiko, Deep Blue etc. I just love the quality, size and amazing movements of Invicta and Aragon. Great video. Been a fan of you, Fredrico and Del Ray for years.
It's impossible to even imagine Rolex actually developing a new technology at that level, let alone conceiving of what they'd charge a watch that uses it.
@@xada2397 Even JLC? Interesting. Japanese brands generally punch above their weight. A friend of mine has a 3.5k titanium Casio that looks totally premium and blows other quartz watches away at much higher price points, especially Cartier.
Yes, you more or less get what you pay for IME ; ) Discount is key though, and possibly avoid Breitling. Going up from mid tier is better value, but everyone likes to convince themselves that's not the case.
Yes typically finishing on a more expensive watch is at a different level, finishing is the most time consuming and time is money. internet trolls don't give enough value to that and only talk "specs" like its a computer instead of a piece of art. Its also the maison your buying into, if your buying into tissot, theres nothing exciting or special there, but if your buying into IWC your in a maison that makes annual calendars, perpetual calendars, eternal calendars, six figures tourbillons, this is exciting to be a part of that.
I have a Traska, Grand Seiko, and a BB58. I’d argue with anyone that the Traska is just as good if not better than the other 2. Case dimensions especially.
Philippe Dufour says the best value watchmakers are Nomos and Grand Seiko. Roger Smith says the best value watchmakers are Tissot and Maurice Lacroix. Quality and price aren't correlated whatsoever.
From good brands like rolex and omega the quality is much better compared to cheap watches. Reliable in house movements that are cosc or meta certified. Higher quality parts and much better finishing. Cheap watches can't hold a light to these watches.
It's like a cigar. What's the difference between a $3 cigar & a $10 cigar... the answer is EVERYTHING. whats the difference between a $10 cigar and a $100 cigar.... that answer is $90
Of course a luxury brand could give more finition but or should have too,but even if they are supose too that dont deserve the high price,we know price is more for social statue than for real price,a lot of rich customer buy only if its expensive,but there is also a lot of medium brand who sell you a watch at 1500euros and you have the same in chinesse brand for 300 hundred,so its all marketing and segment of market..there is revolutoon since a lot of time in watch industry...you can apreciate realy a casio at 50 euros or rolex at 30000,depends what your looking to prouve
Sorry, this is nonsense… yes, price/quality is not linear… yes, marketing is a cost… but… x00$ Seiko vs Rolex are not same machinery… you are completly missing the whole watch adjustment, cost of QC, finishing etc. Ask your local watchmaker.. If you can do 10K watch for 1K, please do so… I will buy it myself. And yes, they are some ovepriced models/watches etc..
If the 10k watch only costs 1k to make then the 1k watch costs 100-150. No doubt there is a difference in quality. My Grand Seiko is finished to a far higher level than even my best Seiko, which is a craftsmanship watch, not a regular mall Seiko, but whether it is worth it or not is up to the individual. AP and Patek are absurdly expensive, but if you are buying Omega, Cartier, Rolex (under 15k), Grand Seiko etc, you are buying something you can keep forever if well maintained.
You are buying a brand name with Rolex, not quality. There is zero rationale to buying a Rolex from a quality perspective. Spending over $10k on a watch that is beaten in quality by watches in the $3000 range makes no sense.
Buying what you like is tricky, I know this because it's exactly what I do, and it attracts criticism... Everybody has an opinion, so if you're not buying the classic standard watches... Omega Speedmaster Moonwatch, Rolex Submariner, Cartier Santos, Grand Seiko Snowflake, G-Shock Square... etc Then it's rubbish...
@lamentate07 Watch Snobs mainly... those that have elevated their knowledge and opinion to Level Superior. Where only their skill and taste should be acknowledged. I happen to love my 'oddball' watches, and wear them all the time. 😀
Quality-whether in finishing, performance, or materials-correlates to price up to a certain point and within certain companies, but luxury brands by definition are disconnected from the usual cost-plus-margin pricing strategies because they're selling you the brand itself. Brands that lack status have to compete on product quality while brands that have high status can compete on perceived exclusivity. This is what allows Cartier to sell watches with simple steel cases, printed dials, and quartz movements for $3500, while a $350 Seiko 5 with a mechanical movement, applied markers, and complex case finishing is dismissed as overpriced.
Cartier watches are some of the worst value propositions out there. Their appeal seems to be based on a strange idea of retro chic nowadays.
I kind of get how their watches developed a certain reputation in the 1970's, but I'm a tad baffled about their status now.
I also understand why the Santos is appreciated, but the Tank is basic and really not much better than cheaper alternatives by Longines and co.
Quality is a very broad umbrella. The basic premise though is correct: there is diminishing returns as you spend more. It’s up to you whether those small differences matter to you. Emotional connection is what matters most.
Well said
Yet another video with sobering and reasonable content in today’s YT watch content with too much fluff and nonsense. 👍🏻
Thank you!
What really hacked me off is the price Omega,Rolex Breitling etc charges for a leather strap 🙈😡😡😡😡😡😡
But they are hand dipped in the snow from Mont Blanc in the Alps!
It never ceases to amuse me that you could source all the parts from China, hand make a dial in Switzerland, and legally slap a 'Swiss made' on it.
Very true. Probably a small number of factories in South China making a lot of the basics. We’re buying the name and image in most cases. Quite an achievement for the new microbrands who do succeed.
Great video. This is topic that needs to be discussed. The reality is that with luxury watch brands you are paying mainly for brand identity (achieved primarily through high-profile marketing) and perceived quality. Wearing an expensive watch makes the owner look and feel rich/successful/special and if you're not too bothered about value for money and happy to pay vastly more than what a watch costs to manufacture, ship and distribute then that's fine, go ahead. I understand this and have no issue whatsover with it but have learnt over time (~30 years of collecting) that it's not for me.
For those of us that regard value for money as important and aren't really out to make a statement, better to stick to lower tier brands that realistically are not that far behind in terms of design, build quality, accuracy, finish etc. As you say though, buy what you love. If a more affordable brand isn't going to give the x-factor/kudos/buzz (whatever) you are looking for then for goodness sake don't buy it. You only live once, owning the things that make you and you alone happy is what matters most. Know your sweet spot and stick with it in other words.
Realistic realism for a change - unlike certain other big YT watch channels that obviously have a ‘relationship’ with big group brands and treat their products/reviews accordingly. Bravo John.
Thank you!
If you look at the history of horology, then it's all about the movements. In comparison, case, dial and finish are mainly superfluous, even though they play a part. Brands may also influence your choice but are not necessarily an indicator of horological superiority.
This is very true in watches. Take the constant force tourb from GS for instance. Throw AP on the dial and it’s worth 10x just bc the name, not the intrinsic value
Remember that the main component of a watch for cost AND for quality /reliability is the movement.
A high end movement for a 3 hander with date from Vaucher or Chronode or similar (higher than ETA or Sellita) will be a bit under $1000 for fairly low MOQ of 25
Vaucher's microrotors used to be about $1600 also MOQ 25.
Vaucher's automatic tourbillion used to be around $8000 for MOQ 10.
(These were pre-pandemic prices, around 2017, I haven't checked recently)
Vaucher is the movement brand that is in the majority of Richard Mille watches for reference. So check the movement to complete watch price relationship.
can you elaborate a little bit on MOQ? first time I read of it. Thanks
@@javiersaturno9689 Minimum Order Quantity, the smallest order quantity that a manufacturer will sell, since they aren't retail items. So in Vaucher's case if you wanted a VMF-3002 automatic 3 hand movement from them you have to buy 25 Minimum at the ~$1000 price, so a $25000 order.
@@javiersaturno9689 My last message didn't post. MOQ is Minimum Order Quantity. Vaucher as a manufacturer/supplier sells batches of movements, not individually. So MOQ 25 means to buy their ~$1000 3 hand VMF-3002 it would be a $25000 order for 25 (or more) pieces. This is common for industry suppliers everywhere not just in watches, that sell to brands that make finished products using outsourced subcomponents. 25 is actually quite low as I've heard Sellita is something like MOQ 200. So while the individual movements may cost less the upfront capital investment can be similar or even more.
@@javiersaturno9689 minimum order quantity
@@javiersaturno9689MOQ means Minimum Order Quantity. You cannot buy single items. MOQ 25 means you must buy 25 items.
All good points John. It really pays to do your homework and buy the watch that meets your needs. Don't get caught up in the nonsense marketing and brand ambassadors. Focus on the details and you'll get the right watch for you.
Hi John
I always appreciate the high quality content of your channel. Thank you
Expensive ≠ better quality
Really enjoyed your presentation on this one, John. Blessings for a great day.
Thank you!
Nice video :) I've just subscribed after watching a few of your videos.
I love your pragmatism and your ability to cut through the hype and get right to the point.
Nice time piece, i had the same on in the white dial, one of my favor watches.
Good points. One pays for the brand image plus the right and precise details when it comes to wrist watches.
When a replica can be perhaps 98% physically as good as a genuine: We are paying primarily for branding!
Yes and no, you are also paying for workers to have a livable wage, taxes, warranties, customer service, materials, etc.
Outstanding video, many thanks, keep up the fantastic work !
I think that a free-sprung balance, a non-magnetic hairspring, a full balance bridge, and a COSC certification, should be the minimum specs of a watch worth settling on.
Of course, buying and selling affordable watches for the purpose of having fun and testing things out is not a bad idea, but I don’t think a mechanical watch makes sense if it doesn’t at least keep comparable time to a digital or quartz watch.
With that said, yes, Tudor are my favourite brand by a mile, and also, I think the Submariner costing 2X the retail of a Black Bay is outrageous. Tudor watches are an absolute bargain on the used market. It’s actually absurd what these watches trade for.
Very sensible top notch yap.
I still remember a short time ago there were these 2 entrepreneurs who wanted to make only 17 units of the world’s greatest watch, and they called it the Delray1. It sold out in less than an hour! Oh that was John P and Federico!
Sinn make great watches for the price , and there’s probably many more ,Nomos are good ,Atelier Wen make lovely watches for the price ,thanks 🏴👍❤️
It's funny. Over my life I have had over a hundred Seiko's. Most always Broke. So I moved to Invicta and Aragon. I love them. Their quality is amazing. I own Rolex, Seiko, Deep Blue etc. I just love the quality, size and amazing movements of Invicta and Aragon. Great video. Been a fan of you, Fredrico and Del Ray for years.
Your so correct. One exception GS. A spring drive for 5/6 grand if sold by Rolex or similar would be 25/30 I think.
It's impossible to even imagine Rolex actually developing a new technology at that level, let alone conceiving of what they'd charge a watch that uses it.
Not just the Sprive Drive. It is the level of finishing as well, especially on the dial. GS punch above their weight.
@@lamentate07 GS and JLC both punch way above their weight. They charge three times less for the same quality as the big three.
@@xada2397 Even JLC? Interesting.
Japanese brands generally punch above their weight. A friend of mine has a 3.5k titanium Casio that looks totally premium and blows other quartz watches away at much higher price points, especially Cartier.
Yes, you more or less get what you pay for IME ; )
Discount is key though, and possibly avoid Breitling.
Going up from mid tier is better value, but everyone likes to convince themselves that's not the case.
Yes typically finishing on a more expensive watch is at a different level, finishing is the most time consuming and time is money. internet trolls don't give enough value to that and only talk "specs" like its a computer instead of a piece of art. Its also the maison your buying into, if your buying into tissot, theres nothing exciting or special there, but if your buying into IWC your in a maison that makes annual calendars, perpetual calendars, eternal calendars, six figures tourbillons, this is exciting to be a part of that.
I have a Traska, Grand Seiko, and a BB58. I’d argue with anyone that the Traska is just as good if not better than the other 2. Case dimensions especially.
Relevant information for the collector. Thank you!
Philippe Dufour says the best value watchmakers are Nomos and Grand Seiko. Roger Smith says the best value watchmakers are Tissot and Maurice Lacroix. Quality and price aren't correlated whatsoever.
Seiko watches accurate?? 😂
The movements can be when other manufacturers actually regulate them because seiko doesn't.
My Invicta Pro Diver gets +2 sec a day,and my Seiko 5 sports gets +10 sec a day and they have Seiko movement.
I buy what I like but it has to be a piece I’m proud to pass onto the next several generations in my family. That defines watch value for me.
WHEN A REAL WATCH MAKER SPEND 100 HOURS TO NURSE AND POLISH THE WATCH . WELL THE PRICE OF THE WATCH WILL SKYROCKET 😮😮😮😮😮😮
From good brands like rolex and omega the quality is much better compared to cheap watches. Reliable in house movements that are cosc or meta certified. Higher quality parts and much better finishing. Cheap watches can't hold a light to these watches.
Excellent content
It's like a cigar.
What's the difference between a $3 cigar & a $10 cigar... the answer is EVERYTHING.
whats the difference between a $10 cigar and a $100 cigar.... that answer is $90
Of course a luxury brand could give more finition but or should have too,but even if they are supose too that dont deserve the high price,we know price is more for social statue than for real price,a lot of rich customer buy only if its expensive,but there is also a lot of medium brand who sell you a watch at 1500euros and you have the same in chinesse brand for 300 hundred,so its all marketing and segment of market..there is revolutoon since a lot of time in watch industry...you can apreciate realy a casio at 50 euros or rolex at 30000,depends what your looking to prouve
Sorry, this is nonsense… yes, price/quality is not linear… yes, marketing is a cost… but… x00$ Seiko vs Rolex are not same machinery… you are completly missing the whole watch adjustment, cost of QC, finishing etc. Ask your local watchmaker..
If you can do 10K watch for 1K, please do so… I will buy it myself. And yes, they are some ovepriced models/watches etc..
If the 10k watch only costs 1k to make then the 1k watch costs 100-150. No doubt there is a difference in quality. My Grand Seiko is finished to a far higher level than even my best Seiko, which is a craftsmanship watch, not a regular mall Seiko, but whether it is worth it or not is up to the individual.
AP and Patek are absurdly expensive, but if you are buying Omega, Cartier, Rolex (under 15k), Grand Seiko etc, you are buying something you can keep forever if well maintained.
You are buying a brand name with Rolex, not quality. There is zero rationale to buying a Rolex from a quality perspective. Spending over $10k on a watch that is beaten in quality by watches in the $3000 range makes no sense.
Buying what you like is tricky, I know this because it's exactly what I do, and it attracts criticism...
Everybody has an opinion, so if you're not buying the classic standard watches... Omega Speedmaster Moonwatch, Rolex Submariner, Cartier Santos, Grand Seiko Snowflake, G-Shock Square... etc
Then it's rubbish...
Attracts criticism from who exactly? Most people can't afford real luxury watches.
@lamentate07 Watch Snobs mainly... those that have elevated their knowledge and opinion to Level Superior. Where only their skill and taste should be acknowledged.
I happen to love my 'oddball' watches, and wear them all the time. 😀
Mark Wahlberg x Timex? 🤔
Whatever if I like the brand or the name of the brand I’ll spend more
nice video
Someone could ask Nico Leonard if his expensive Ferrari is better than a Toyota Corolla. Lol
I think the higher the price paid for a watch, the more likely it's been bought for bragging about.
This is what I think when I see half the celebs at the Tom Brady roast wearing Richard Mille.