I attended a church which could have used ordinary grape juice, but instead used red wine because the alcohol lessened the possibility of people getting infected with an infection as the cup of wine was being passed around after the breaking of the loaf of bread.
@@nordscan9043...is full of false doctrine. Why should we trust anything it says about what was done by the Messiah it rejects one night centuries before it existed?
An old pastor I had many years ago once taught in church that it didn't matter what the drink was. He used the example that if it was all you had, Mountain Dew could be used... I'm now safely planted in a Reformed Baptist church and question that teaching as well as that pastor.
It's important to pay attention to details. Moses didn't enter the promised land because he didn't listen to directions carefully. I commend these discussions though I am convinced that both juice and wine qualify for "fruit of the vine"
Strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. (This message, bruin4Christ, is not referring to you) John says "sin is the transgression of the law." Therefore, regardless of what any antinomian might say or say otherwise, if we are to avoid sin, we must needs avoid transgressing the law. Many who'd split hairs on the manner of communion or tithing will "omit the weightier matters of the law: judgment, and mercy, and faith." Those are the words of Jesus. Bruin4Christ, you're totally right... grape juice = a fruit of the vine. Period. "But..." - someone No. End of. Next...
Grape juice as we know today was basically invented in the 1800s as the process of refrigeration came into use. That means as soon as grape juice was pressed 2000 years ago it started to ferment. One could argue that Jesus might have used fresh grape juice that either had no alcohol or just a little. Therefore I am also convinced that both qualify. In the end it comes down to the matter of the heart. It is essential to have a personal conviction on the matter.
Paul said that each must be fully convinced in his own mind. If Pastor Doug and all his congregating are "fully convinced" then God bless them and keep them. As for me, the matter is not so settled. Though the Lord's Supper is an adaptation of the Passover Seder, it is so much more, but nowhere near as ritual. As a remembrance, the activity of the faithful heart is paramount. It is our thoughts and intentions that matter. There may be a time or a place when we may not have access to wine or grape juice or unleavened bread. We may only have water and a can of beans...are we then barred from the Lord's Supper? I am settled that that is not the case. Nevertheless, God bless Pastor Doug and Christ Church of Moscow Idaho!
Agreed. Communion is fellowship with other brothers and sisters over a meal of any kind. We're just supposed to remember Jesus while we do it. Eating a piece of bread the size of a quarter with a third of an ounce of wine is like following the letter of the law while missing the spirit of it. Reminds me of the way Jesus spoke to the Pharisees.
I think that the church can be a little too particular about some issues. What relates to my salvation or others is what should matter. Otherwise we can get into a person's conscience, dictating what is done, rather than the Bible.
100% I've been wondering too about little children not being able to take communion... Jesus said “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” I feel it should not be such a "rule" but yet we should focus on emphasizing the meaning of it... I'd say that including a child into the communion and teaching is way better than forbidding and excluding... Is more about they taking it with their parents and having an example.. so if can or no can doesn't really matter, its more about the relationship in it. I say that because we took my friends 2 years old twins for communion at one church and I could see the "religious" reaction, when they come to the church I go is not a big deal... they're gnarly little ones, been through so much, do to show them what it is the church and the communion is doing so good for them... They love the grape juice and the bread... They are just kids and they understand Christ in their own way or not but the action is creating a memory... We do associate the "juice" with His blood and sacrifice and teach them what it means.. is like planting a seed, they grasp in their child way. Do you think Jesus would no allow them to have it? Or would he embrace them and show what it means?
Never thought much into this topic before until now. I do think the church should offer options of both wine and grape juice for the sake of conscience as Doug said at the end.
Dealcoholized wine is both wine and considerate for those who have an issue with alcohol. It still contains some alcohol, and unless you're willing to argue that the liquid ceases to be wine under a certain percentage alcohol, it seems like the perfect solution. I do not think such an argument is tenable given the precedent of mixing water with the wine at an unspecified ratio. There's also the interesting historical policy that must (pre-wine) is acceptable.
Yes, I fully agree with you that Scripture is made up of different genres. I don't think anyone would deny this. The problem is that virtually no two "denominations" can always agree on which passages should be taken literally or symbolically. For example in Malachi 1:11 there is a prophecy about Gentile Christians:
Jesus did not serve unfermented grape juice in the Supper. Nor at the wedding supper at Cana did He make water turn into grape juice, but to wine, perfectly aged, top-shelf wine. I would suggest doing a study on the occurrences of bread and of wine in the OT, and note that God removes them from the people as signs of the removal of sustenance (bread) and of that which brings joy to the heart (wine). Grape juice is never mentioned except AS wine, because wine is the entire point of grapes, just as bread is the point of grain. The body and blood of Jesus then is that which sustains us, gives us both life, and joy. Partaking of Christ's body and blood is fully orbed.
@@stegokitty No you are the unattractive one. Trying to argue and divide and think you know the secret ritual to unlock Heaven. What percentage of wine must we use to get to Heaven? Be exact to the third decimal please. What percentage of alcohol? Plus I command you get your wine from Israel or else. Understood? Is this more attractive to you then?
I quit drinking 8 months ago, and wine for communion would not at all affect me. I applaud Doug on this call. However, calling the use of grape juice sinful is, to me, a stretch.
I don't feel the Lord's Supper needs to be observed weekly. So far I have not heard a pastor justify it with any explanation other than "The elders decided." I believe observing it monthly or even quarterly would be sufficient.
Weekly Eucharist is the practice of the ancient church, even Justin Martyr in 150 AD mentions it. Monthly or quarterly Eucharist is an invention of the Reformers.
Like the man said, it's not worth a greater sin to divide the body of Christ over. Having said that, an honest question is, would fresh grapes have been available for Passover in those days? Or, would it be alcoholic to store from the last grape harvest?
🍇Passover (early spring) isn't Grape Harvest time...it comes several months later in late Summer and early fall ...so no fresh grape fruit at passover ...
...the Bread for Passover was specifically to be unleavened ...due only to the Haste in which the Jews need to depart the following day...no time for the bread to rise ...there was no specific requirement for wine during the Passover Feast...nor would fresh grapes be available in early spring...Jews have a special traditional sweet wine for Passover, and it is fermented...recently however the rabbis now authorize a non-alcoholic version as well...
In our church they have switched back and forth because we had a couple brothers that were struggling with alcoholism that were weak enough that it became a problem.
@🏆Hmmmmmm What should happen in those circumstances though. Walk me through it because I have a member of my congregation who is this way as well. I'm asking in urgency. Please reply quickly if you are able.
@@Th3BigBoy 🎙️Anyone who is an alcoholic HAS NO BUSSINESS TAKING COMMUNION ANYWAYS ‼️ I CORINTHIANS 11:23-29📜‼️ STOP FINDING EXCUSES FOR SINNERS WHO DOES NOT REPENT. LAST SUPPER CUP IS WINE NOT GRAPE JUICE! PSALM 75:8 ‼️‼️AND UNLEAVENED WHEAT BREAD EXODUS 29:2.🎙️ TAKING COMMUNION WITH UNLEAVENED WHEAT BREAD 🍞 AND DRINK A CUP OF 🍷 WINE IS RIGHTEOUSNESS 📜
@@threetruths123 how is it an excuse? I simply stated a reasonable exception because of a specific situation that came and went. We are back to wine. If you think the alchohol content is what makes communion important I think you need to reread the bible with mercy for the weak brothers in mind.
Jesus did not even allude to “wine,” fermented or not! He simply made mention of “the fruit of the vine.” It is more than interesting to note that the word He used for “fruit” is not the ordinary word that refers to produce. This word is related to “that which is generated or begotten.” The only thing from a vine that is generated or begotten is its berry or the juice from its berry-not alcohol. That is something that is produced as a by-product through a process.
@@alexanderalbano5897 If your argument is that grape juice left to itself will ferment, then what is the problem partaking of grape juice for communion, knowing that in some way and to some extent it, by your argument, has fermented and therefore fulfills your requirement? The point is valid, the Scripture never says "wine" in ordinance for the Lord's Supper, it simply says "fruit of the vine" which leaves open the possibility to use grape juice and be completely within the language of Scripture. Their argument is not ignorant.
@@sparkyellis6128 grapes naturally have yeast on the skin. When you press grapes they begin to ferment, in less than a day. Grape juice now is pasteurised to kill the yeast after pressing, so as long as it is kept cool, and in an airtight container it will not ferment. I do not see a problem with using grape juice instead of wine. But I don't think there would have been grape juice available in spring during that time period since grapes are harvested in the autumn. How would pressed grapes have stored as grape juice from autumn until spring 2000 years ago?
Look for answers from Scripture. Not what random people say is okay or not. Wine in communion was wine. Grape juice is unfermented wine which didn't exist until the late 19th century, but I'm not sure that it classifies as wine. I do know pretty early in the church they would mix water and wine to symbolize the mixing of water and blood that took place in Jesus' death but this is not laid out in scripture. If you attend a church that serves wine, then know that AA does make exceptions for communion. If you take of it with a contrite heart, knowing your tendencies, it can even teach you the proper place for alcohol in a believer's life. This is in keeping with 1 Corinthians 11 which rebuked the church for getting drunk off of communion and tells them to examine themselves and take it alongside the rest of the church. Take it together with others that know your struggle and can keep you accountable. I know this is years late and if your pastor has directed you otherwise, do not let me cause disunity between you and your church. God bless brother. I pray you have experienced the life changing power of the Holy Spirit through your struggle with drunkenness.
If I've got my information correct they called it wine even if it wasn't fermented, and yeast was used for the fermentation process which wouldn't have been lawful at the Passover meal that they were celebrating. Am I wrong?
@@tonymoore566 Yes but it naturally ferments. So there was never *zero* alcohol. Beyond that, many verses about wine (including Jesus' first miracle) clearly assume enough alcohol to have mental effects, impair judgement etc.
It is not implied that the wine Jesus made in the wedding at Cana had mental effects. In fact, it is implied that the wine Jesus made had no mental effects! The head of the feast said that the "best wine" (agathos: meaning superior in quality) is served first, but you have saved the "best" (kalos: meaning morally superior) wine till last. Furthermore, the statement about how normally guests were served the best wine first and then served the cheaper wine last (implying that they were inebriated) is a general one, not one necessarily specific to that event. @Tony Moore you are correct in saying that it would have been unlawful to drink what we now call "alcohol" at the Passover feast because of the presence of yeast. This is why the scriptures clearly state that Jesus and the disciples drank the "fruit of the vine" at the last supper, clearly avoiding use of the word "oinos," which could mean the presence of alcohol. However, @gracefool, you are not correct in saying that fresh grape juice was immediately alcoholic. For the sake of brevity, I will refer you to the book "Ancient Wine & the Bible" by David R. Brumbelow, which clearly shows how the ancients made and preserved grape juice for very long periods of time. My last argument is a theological one. Consider Proverbs 23, where it says not to even look at wine when it sparkles/turneth itself aright/et al. in the cup, when it goes down smoothly. The words used for "sparkling" or "turning" in the cup actually paint a picture of the wine clinging to the edge of the cup, thereby revealing an alcoholic content. Proverbs 23 goes on to show the road to drunkenness and ruin, starting with gazing into the cup. If Proverbs says this, and Jesus is the Word of God, how is it that his first miracle was giving alcoholic "wine" to his neighbor? How could Jesus been pleasing to the Father and simultaneously performed this miracle? Furthermore, how could Jesus have properly performed his priestly duties if he was under the influence? It is clearly prohibited to drink while performing priestly duties. I urge all my brothers in Christ, to not drink anything that is fermented into alcohol. Do not be deceived by such talk as "moderation" with alcohol. The Bible clearly states that it is not a line in the sand, it is a road you should avoid at all costs! I have had these same questions for a long time (mainly the one regarding Proverbs 23) and after doing a great deal of research (primary source research in many cases) discovered the things I have told you and much more. One last thing: please do no dismiss my arguments flippantly and please look into this as I have. I find it very discouraging that many Christians (even reformed) are so dismissive of these facts and instead rely on incorrect assumptions based on modern language which is built in part on scientific and chemical distinctions that the ancients did not have, namely the word "alcohol."
Examine oneself first. Matthew 5:22-24. Corinthians 10:16.17. Are we not all partakers in this communion? Lets not forget, we are redeemed guest at his table. Lets not be little children and quibble, let us remember what he said. This do until he come, his death burial and resurrection.
@@supersmart671Right? WHY is it soooo crazy to use wine for communion? The person you posted to is probably Baptist. They are extremely strict about alcohol.
What about leavened bread? At passover where the Lord instituted The Lord's Supper, unleavened bread was used. Furthermore, leaven is a significant symbol in scripture, so it isn't a meaningless detail.
Sure...Leavened Bread is the New Covenant Pentecost Bread. Jesus uses an illustration of leavened bread for the Kingdom of God. The Resurrected Christ is the Bread of Life, not the Bread of Affliction...
When yeast is added to grape juice, a chemical change takes place- the sugar in the grapes are changed to alcohol. For the most part, in the Scripture leaven is typified as sin, therefore, alcoholic wine is no longer the fruit of the vine of which our Lord spoke of.
Grape juice, left by itself, will naturally begin fermentation. Winemakers add yeast to speed up the process, but it naturally occurs from the yeast that develops on the grape's skin. The yeast is passed on during pressing. The process isn't always 100%, as the naturally occurring yeast may have low alcohol tolerance and the fermentation will end before all the sugars have been consumed. There was no known method prior to 1869 to prevent the fermentation of grape juice 100%. Thomas Bramwell Welch invented the first method for pasteurization of grapes. Prior to that all grape juice naturally became alcoholic, but varied in content without added yeast.
(Luke 5:37-39) "And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. {38} But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. {39} No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better." There is new wine, and there is old wine. Both are wine. So which one did Jesus give to his disciples? (1 Samuel 1:14-16) "And Eli said unto her, How long wilt thou be drunken? put away thy wine from thee. {15} And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD. {16} Count not thine handmaid for a daughter of Belial: for out of the abundance of my complaint and grief have I spoken hitherto." Hannah knew what it meant to be accused of drinking wine. Curious why pastors don't?
I disagree, and for this man to condemn people over alcoholic or non alcoholic grape juice.. It will not be well for this man. For his sake, I hope he gets his wine from Israel, from the same vine Jesus got his grape juice from.
@@nordscan9043 No. The process for keeping grape juice from fermenting didn't exist until 2-3 hundred years ago. In fact, that process was invented by Welch whom I'm sure rings a bell.
AA makes exceptions for communion. It is a gross legalism to think that an alcoholic sins in taking communion. In fact, the greater sin is convincing them they are sinning by taking communion. They will not get drunk off of it and when done with a contrite heart, it can even teach them the proper use of alcohol. This idea propogated by the secular world and adapted by many Christians that alcoholics can't change is unbiblical.
@@maceawilder I agree. That’s not what I meant. I meant that we should be careful consider where they are at. For some of them a taste of strong drink might put them at risk. I want to protect them, not judge them. When we were in Ukraine, their communion wine was so strong, just a sip made me a bit dizzy. I was concerned for those with us who had a history of addiction. My husband is set free, but he still didn’t dare take that chance.
I think the big question is interpretation of scripture, especially when there are so many denominations and non denominations out there. Ask yourself how you know your interpretation is infallible
Churches use a tiny plastic vial for communion which is not a "drink," but a "sip" and this is not what they used at the Last Supper, Jesus drank out of a CUP. He didn't say "sip," He said "drink." So if you really want to imitate Christ use a cup. However, it is not wise to drink wine by the cup and then drive home from a church! Seeing that Jesus used in the Greek "fruit of the vine" (not oinos meaning wine) it is more fitting to use grape juice. But if you are at home having communion you could use wine if you have a stomach for it, but primarily fruit of the vine is grape juice and/or the "offspring" of the vine in its purest form. I use a whole cup at my home communion services and use grape juice not wine. But it is entirely okay to use wine if you want and if a cup of it doesn't get you "buzzed." But most non drinkers would get a buzz from that and the bible does warn about that at communion.
So you cannot drink out of a small cup? Btw, Oxford Dictionary defines the verb “sip” as: _”drink_ (something) by taking small mouthfuls.” Do with that what you will 🤗
Bingo. I'm not one to split hairs over "traditions," but while we're on the subject with this odd video... I'll say, I've always thought it strange that when we want to remember the abundance that JESUS has shed forth for us in his redemptive work, we use teeny plastic thimbals in place of cups. And pieces of bread not fit for a mouse. Odd, very odd. "But..." No folks, think about it.
Im grateful for doug Wilson’s tremendous leadership and commitment to scripture. This idea of serving alcohol in church is GROTESQUE!!! I would have quietly left. Not a single person can convince me that Jesus was telling everyone to get liqueured up to remember his sacrifice.
@@joshsomerville6048 your conclusion is your opinion. There are many things much more clear in scripture than whether this word referred to alcoholic wine or grape juice. For instance Peter told women not to wear gold. Are you a stickler for that one? Why not? Paul said if a man won’t work let him starve? Have you ever given to a person in your church or even a homeless person if you were unsure of their work status? WOULD you let someone starve????? But you will strain at this kind of gnat interpretation to drink 🍺 won’t you? People pushing alcohol in church as an issue to fight about but swallowing moats clearly repeated in the NT are hypocritical at best.
@@G1stGBless It isn't my opinion. It is what the koine Greek says. You're the one who is using an opinion. It was clearly wine. That's simply the word in Greek. I agree with everything Paul says. On gold jewellery and in Thessalonians The verses preceding the instruction to those unwilling to work relate a positive example: “You ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate” (2 Thessalonians 3:7-9). Paul and his companions did not come to the people of Thessalonica to take food or money from them but to share Christ with them. They were willing to work a side job to provide for their food. In contrast, if any Christian worker came to a church and refused to work, Paul says not to offer him food. This instruction also had application to people within their congregation. Verses 11-12 note, “We hear that some among you are idle and disruptive. They are not busy; they are busybodies. Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the food they eat.” This is the Christian work ethic. Believers are to be known for working hard, not for a lazy attitude. Youre the one ignoring scripture. The word is clearly wine.
@@joshsomerville6048 the words in Mark Jesus used (where i literally happened to be reading this morning in devotions, bc I refuse to look this up to argue with you) are γεννήματος γέννημα τῆς ὁἀμπέλου ἄμπελος (fruit of the vine) gennēma ho ampelos, which is NOT what you said “the Bible” 😂 says. It’s ludicrous you would claim “the Bible” says something as if you personally can guarantee it is worded identically to your opinion in every instance. Then re’Mark’abley the first instance I come across in reading submarines your opinions. Look, I’m going to heed Titus warnings and only address you about your alcohol issues and opinions here 2x. If you wish to keep posting and indulging your flesh with booze and contentions when and where you like including in church then have at it. I would strongly caution against it. May God bless and lead you. Btw I could be wrong about nearly anything I said bc I am a human and subject to mistakes. If I am mistaken on this issue and you are supposed to drink booze in church to remember Christs blood then my guess is I will receive no punishment for consuming non alcoholic fruit of the vine. Meanwhile I would hate to hold your position and be trying to lead others into alcoholic error and be wrong (especially considering many people greatly struggle with strong drink which is of course warned against many times). The consequences of your error could/would be much worse (especially for recoverings) than inviting people to recall the Lord sacrifice with fruit of the vine which is non-alcoholic. But it doesn’t change the fact that I could be wrong here because I have been wrong before. Peace ✌️
I think it is ridiculous to worry about what is in the cup. Now you are going back to the law just like the Jews originally did. Communion is about remembering Christ and his sacrifice on the cross. Two men in prison use water for communion, oh they sinned! Better to not have communion than to sin! Right? Wrong! The sin you would have committed is to think the Law saved
Has anyone considered that they drank 4 cups of wine for passover. Each cup containing three quarters, the men, women and children had to drink. Alcohol is a by product of leaven. They could not have anything that was leavened over passover.
Love God and love your neighbor. Let's focus on that. Not keeping with EXAMPLES from the Bible is no big deal. Not keeping Jesus' commands is different. What are his commands? The great commission. Love one another. Let's walk in the fruits of the spirit instead of pointing out preferences as sins. Relax, live in God's grace. Feel free. Experience his love. Tell others about him. Love them. Reject legalism at every corner.
I agree but it's not Doug's congregation. I grieve for these Christian congregations under any shepherd but Jesus. "There shall be one fold, and one shepherd." - JESUS
The Greek word for fermented wine is "oinos" meaning wine (fermented grape juice.). This is NOT the word used for the drink at the Last Supper. But it is the word used in the Wedding of Cana (changed water into wine). The references to the drink in the Last Supper the word FRUIT OF THE VINE is used which is not specifically wine and more specifically grape juice. But wine could also be used, providing you are not driving and you are using a cup like Jesus did and not a tiny plastic vile like churches use.
I'm not following you. For one, Passover is not celebrated with grape juice; the Last Supper was where Jesus observed "the Passover with My disciples." And it is understood that the cup at Passover is a cup of "wine," in the same way that the "bread" eaten is unleavened. Juice that is not fermented contains yeast, which is forbidden at Passover; fermentation kills the yeast (Ex. 12:19). Second, Jesus does not use any word for wine at this Passover; "fruit of the vine" includes wine, as well as juice, but in no way excludes wine any more than America includes Ohio, as well as Nebraska, but in no way excludes Ohio; it's a general term. The reason Jesus, as a Jew, refers to the Passover wine as the "fruit of the vine" is simply the blessed pronounced over it: "After he gave thanks..." i.e., "Baruch ata ADONAI Eloheinu Melech ha-olam, borei peri ha-gafen (Blessed are you, O LORD, our God, who createst the Fruit of the Vine)."
@@c.a.g.3130 This is what she said: "The references to the drink in the Last Supper the word FRUIT OF THE VINE is used which is not specifically wine and more specifically grape juice. But wine could also be used". This is what you said: " Jesus does not use any word for wine at this Passover; "fruit of the vine" includes wine, as well as juice, but in no way excludes wine ". What am I missing? It looks to me that you're both saying the same thing on that point, however, what you say about yeast may be valid, and I'm not sure why she would introduce a new point to divide over, that being the container the drink is put in, unless that part was meant as a joke. All of that being said, I've always wished baptists just used wine since a simple reading of the English Bible says wine.
That’s a cute Baptist argument, but we all know what wine means. The whole “the grape juice wasn’t fermented” bit has to be one of the sadder arguments ever born out of American Evangelicalism
Alcoholics are not permitted to take wine. Do you want to exclude them from Communion? Why not offer both options at The Table - leaded and unleaded. And, there is no way in the world I would give my child wine, beer, or Vodka. That is simply bad parenting in my opinion and practice.
Christ's command is to drink the fruit of the vine, which of course from the grape. Jesus does NOT say "wine." Either grape juice or wine is fine, BOTH are fruit of the vine. Grapes are the fruit and/or product of the wine. Please do not believe what a youtube video says, go to www.blueletterbible.com and look up the Greek and Latin and English meanings for yourself.
Listen at 2 minutes to what Doug says about when he was "committing" that sin but avoiding a larger one. Yes it's a lack of conformity to the word of God, so it's a sin, but a small one (if that makes sense).
Thank you for pointing this out. I have done missionary work in many places where finding wine is impossible. My Wilson handles this with a lot more charity than others do, but the idea of grape juice being a sin is often because they assume that every use of grape juice is a result of believing alcohol is a sin. It's a very American understanding of the issues.
@@biblicalbee2082 it is in a lot of cases, that a lot of American evangelicals believe that alcohol is a sin. I always contend that there are other reasons why one might use grape juice instead of wine. Your example perfectly displays that, and I appreciate your perspective. God bless
I’m surprised he took this position. The method of the sacrament isn’t above the purpose. The purpose is to remind us of Christ’s sacrifice, not to ingest a certain amount of alcohol. By Doug’s argument, we could argue over what type of bread to use too 😂
Does your church use incense or offer a "pure offering"??? (literally a grain offering - i.e. the eucharistic bread). Why does St Paul say that some have become sick and died for taking the Eucharist unworthily? Why would that happen if it's purely a "symbolic"?
This interpretation is tremendously wrong given that this doesn't happen today. That verse is best understood in light of the fact that from 11:17 forwards we see that the sin committed that dishonors communion is how the people were treating each other, in response to which Paul says that they don't even eat the Supper. The sickness and death should be understood in this context. Since the purpose of the Supper is the communion of the saints, the divisions and abuse that took place at the time declared the wickedness instead of what the Supper is supposed to declare, thus profaning the name of Yeshua.
so based on what he said, everyone who has communion is sinning as we don't use the same things that Jesus us. we don't use the same type of bread (an arguement aganist this would be that it is still bread of one type or another but that could be argued that wine is one form of grape juice). also what about recovering alcoholics or those who do not which to take anything that is a non medical drug on religous grounds, don't these people need to be catered for? i think his view is focusing to much on the physicall and not enough on the spirital aspect of communion, it is about remembering christs sacrifice, some churches in africa use bannanas and cola because thats what they could get hold of. the act of remebering christ's sacrifice is more important than what you do it with. also what about children, are you saying that we should give young children wine?
The Greek word for unleavened bread was not used. Jesus used the regular word for bread “artos,” not unleavened bread ("azumos"). In regards to the drink, Jesus uses fruit of the vine (Greek word is fruit of the vine not wine). So regular bread and regular grape juice IS scriptural. "“In all three Gospels what Jesus gave the disciples is “artos,” meaning simply “bread.” It is striking that He is not said to have given them “azumos” or “azuma” which are the proper words for unleavened bread..." REF: newtestamentchurch.com/articles-of-interest-to-church-planters/communion-bread/
Grape juice is actually the literal translation in both Greek, Latin, English, Italian. The Greek word Jesus used was NOT wine, it was γέννημα génnēma, ghen'-nay-mah; from G1080; offspring; by analogy, produce (literally or figuratively):-FRUIT, generation. English meaning: FRUIT OF THE VINE. And let's look at the Latin "de hoc genimine vitis" which also means FRUIT OF THE VINE. The Italian bible also translates it as "frutto della vite" (FRUIT OF THE VINE). If it was simply "vino" as in alcohol, it certainly would've been translated VINO in the land of vino, Italy.
@@dmythica So you are telling me Jesus is incapable of providing himself unfermented fruit of the vine? The creator of heaven and earth cannot speak this into existence? Just because the season is not the appropriate time according to you. Did He not provide a place for this Passover celebration by a miracle but the drink for Passover is much to hard for Him.
@@TheDoorChurchThePottersHouse because Jesus as a rabbi, is following the Jewish precepts for Passover. The fruit of the vine includes wine. And wine is an alcoholic drink.
Drinking grape juice isn’t a sin. The king James Bible uses the word wine because the word juice did not exist. Wine simply means the nectar from the vine
Wine IS grape juice, it's just been fermented. And some of us CAN'T drink wine, even a tiny bit, so would this guy have us believe we can't take part in communion?
@@firingallcylinders2949 During the current situation many churches aren't even meeting. My church started doing a series we call "Worship At Home". The pastor records her weekly sermon, the music director records two pieces of music, they send them to me and I make a video out of it that goes to the congratulation. It's a LOT of work, but it's doing a good service and my video making skills are getting much better.
@@firingallcylinders2949 Mine didn't either, we are doing the online thing plus we are meeting in the parking lot for a short outdoor service. As we have an older congregation and our space isn't that big we decided it was best to be very conservative about when we have services in our building again. The real point is we are meeting and we are getting the message out, and our worship at home services are reaching people who never would have made it to our little church. On a good Sunday we might have 25 to 30 people, one of our recent Sunday messages had almost 150 people watch it all the way through. If you are interested here is our message from last Sunday. facebook.com/watch/?v=343716243464009
Love God and love your neighbor. Let's focus on that. Not keeping with EXAMPLES from the Bible is no big deal. Not keeping Jesus' commands is different. What are his commands? The great commission. Love one another. Let's walk in the fruits of the spirit instead of pointing out preferences as sins. Relax, live in God's grace. Feel free. Experience his love. Tell others about him. Love them. Reject legalism at every corner.
"For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations," says the LORD of hosts. This passage prophetically declares that Gentile worshipers of God will use incense and "grain offerings" (i.e the Eucharistic bread). Nevertheless, this passage would be likely described as "symbolic" by low church evangelicals with a
I find it telling how Protestants claim to take the Bible literally, but when it comes to Christ saying "this is my body, this is my blood", the think it says "think represents my body, this represents my blood". Malachi 1:11 says "For from the rising of the sun even to the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered to my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, said the LORD of hosts".
"Literally" does not mean "literalistically" in its proper Protestant usage. It means "according to the literary form." In this case, Protestants take the form of the statement to be a metaphor while taking the larger passage as a literal (non-allegorical) depiction of the Last Supper.
This seems really silly, Jesus just picked up his cup with what he happened to be drinking at the time. It’s a symbol that could easily be done with water or orange juice it’s just that red wine was a better metaphor for him to use to symbolize his blood
Romans 14:20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. If you serve alcohol in communion to a Christian who is also alcoholic you would be destroying the work of God for the sake of food. You are wrong sir on this point. Good day & God Bless...
I have no qualm about this response, so long as you also exclusively use unleavened bread for communion (which is clearly prescribed in the Law of Moses).
Jesus said FRUIT of the vine, meaning the raw natural grape or UNFERMENTED grapes. Jesus didn't drink wine during the Passover. For a grape or fruit of the vine to become wine the fruit or grape must go through the FERMENTING process. Which in turn would produce wine.
So in the Bible there’s two words for wine, one meaning new wine (or juice) and the other being alcoholic wine. So technically grape juice is a valid substitute.
Not true. New wine is high in alcohol content because the sugars are rapidly being covered to alcohol sugars. I know this because ive been a wine maker for many years. That's why you hear about new wine being put into new skins so that the expansion from gases don't bust it. New wine in ancient times was a treat because it didn't take nearly as much to get a buzz.
@@joshhigdon4951 Ah, interesting! I always thought that verse seemed a bit odd since I know very little about wine, but what you said makes a lot of sense
@@B33nj4m1n yes. I have a legalistic cousin pastor, whom I love to death, that makes the judge argument. New wine, in every context in Scripture, has a special context. It's not because it is juice. Any wine that is made has the highest alcohol content within the first week after the start of fermentation. It is potent. Mine sits at 25-30% until about a month in. Then it lessens over time to about 10-15
The Eucharist is the center of Christian worship. Over the last 500 years, it’s been turned into a sideshow by Protestants. At every liturgy, a sacrifice should be made to God and a portion of that sacrifice is returned to the people in the body and blood of Christ. Instead, we get long sermons about “purpose driven lives” and wealth management strategies. If you don’t attend a church that believes in the physical presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, just stay home and watch the 700 club.
wine has leaven in it and leaven is symbolic for “sin” if the wine is suppose to be Jesus’s blood then it ought NOT to have leaven in it because Jesus’s blood was precious sinless blood, plus that was the Passover they were celebrating and leaven was forbidden during pass over …. Stick with grape juice….. also the juice was called wine as soon as it left the grape ….. come on now people
This is ridiculous to even argue about. Wine and grape juice are materially the same thing. Churches shouldn’t be splitting over this or wasting time on it.
I know this may not sit well, but don't care about following traditions. You should care, but don't. The reason I say that is because Jesus went against the traditions of the Jewish people because they were so focused on following traditions that they lost their meaning. If you shed the blood of the lamb, it means nothing and should not be followed as a tradition if you are Jewish. If you shed the blood of your dog or your cat, then that is better than shedding the blood of a lamb. The reason why this made our sins forgiven was that it meant something to us when we did it. It wasn't the lamb that was special, it was the pain inside from killing a house pet. If you can create that type of fellowship with God through grape juice but you can not do it with wine because you choose not to drink, then choose to use grape juice because it is what puts you in the mindset to commemorate the last supper.
It's more than a symbol. It's worship and commanded, unlike baby dedications... He's basically calling grape juice a sin of omission. Good Lord, people. We do that all the time. That's why we must confess....
I was under the impression that, biblically, they are both wine; 'old' and 'new' wine, and, I don't think the bible specifies which to use for communion.
@@nordscan9043 Clearly you know absolutely nothing about wine, nor about fermentation; as well clearly you know how to read into a text whatever you wish for it to say. It's call eisegesis (if you now what that means). There is no sarcasm being employed in Acts 2:13, as there's zero reason for it to be sarcasm. Why would someone who is making fun of another person, suggesting that they're drunk, use sarcasm? I'm guessing that you think that Jesus turned the water to grape juice at the wedding; and that the Lord would never condone the drinking of alcohol, much less make it a blessing unto mankind.
The Bible says Jesus had the grapes there. Wine doesn’t squeeze out of grapes, but grape juice does. This guy thinks juice contaminated with Leven represents the pure blood of Jesus. 🤡
Use Merlot intend of grape juice, no one will no the difference. But that would be a sin as it is a lie of omission. Cant win. Isnt there Non Alcoholic wine?
First let's understand that the biblical term for "wine" regarding the communion and the "wine" Jesus drank was from the "fruit of the vine" (in other words, grape juice) . It was NON alcoholic. Plus back in those days people had to drink all day just to get a buzz or drunk. No where in the Bible are we encouraged to drink wine nor to get buzzed or drunk , in fact Proverbs reminds us that "wine is a mocker, strong drink (alcoholic beverages) is raging and whoever is decieved by it is not wise" .
I once asked another, who said this same thing, what does "wine is a mocker" _mean?_ He said it means "wine is a mocker". He did not seem to understand the first chapter of Proverbs: "for understanding proverbs and parables, the sayings and riddles of the wise". He seemed to think the proverb was self-explanatory, as it were.
Jesus made wine for the wedding. Would he make wine if it were sinful to drink it? We know it's wine because the passage makes it clear that you can get drunk from it.
Some qualifications for ... Deacons, I believe, are to not be given to MUCH wine. Why not be given to much grape juice? It's talking about being an alcoholic. Notice it doesn't say they can't drink ANY wine: just not MUCH wine.
Foolish! "Luke 11:39 Then the Lord said to him, “Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness." The purpose of communion is not taking the wine or the bread and then walking away (in fact Paul talks against that in 1 Corinthians 11:20-21). The point of communion is as Jesus said after the wine and after the bread; "in remembrance of me" (1 Cor. 11:24-25). I disagree that drinking juice is a sin. And it doesn't matter anyway.
It does matter, One of God's primary ways of teaching us is through symbol. We are taught about the fatherhood of God by seeing our own fathers and becoming fathers ourselves, we are taught about the Union of Christ and the church through marriage. The Old testament is filled with Types that find their fufillment in Christ. The importance of Symbol in correct christian worship is why we baptize believers by immersion. We are Identifying with Christs death, burial and resurrection in the going into the water going under and coming back up. If we mess with the symbol we propagate misinformation about God and his kingdom.
This is a good video for understanding what is at the very bottom of Wilson's theology of the bible. His young-earth position arises out of a the same theology. Without really getting into that I'll just say that the notion that all Christians are required by God to consume ethanol(C2H6O), the metabolic waste products of fermented grapes a few times a year is biblical legalism, and besides that, fails to understand both context and practice of celebratory covenant meals in the ancient world.
Zwinglian view of sacraments. Yet, historic Christianity has always viewed this passage as prophetic of the Church's Liturgical worship - a worship "style" rejected by most evangelicals. I was a staunch Calvinist most of my life - until I found Orthodoxy a few years ago. I defended Sola Scriptura - but reason and more importantly, Church history has shown me that Sola Scriptura is itself unbiblical and is the invention of the Reformers. It has now become a protestant "tradition".
Doug...'sigh'...I love you but...'sigh' ...smh...I mean...ok. let me just explain. Ok wait. Let's just put it this...'sigh'. whatever. Ok. You are a wonderful brother. And yes, you can be a bit brutal in your delivery. Yet I still appreciate you. However, no matter what, you simply cannot say it's 'sin' to use grape juice. It's the fruit of the vine. It is done in remembrance of His death until He comes. And even more. Yet we have direct didactic teaching on the subject, and it doesn't include the quality and ingredients - at least this ingredients or state of the wine. You are well aware that at the time, the fruits of the vine often did not contain any or much alcohol. And a simple meditation on the issue would or should permit the fact that alcohol in the juice used is nowhere/no way necessary for the sacrament. I believe, my dear friend Doug,you have erred (sinned) though not meaning to. And that in regards to the Lord's Supper! And the result is that many will stumble. Please think harder, pray harder and do what is right. Take this video down after taking it "back".
Yeah, I find that certain reformed folk seem to miss the forest for the trees. It reminds me of Judaism in some ways. They worry, as in the example given, about the tenth of the mint, dill, and cumin but they forget about the weighty matters. The point is to be in remembrance of the atoning death of Christ through a symbolic act. The point is not that every Christian must, during the symbolic act, drink and eat only those specific forms of food and drink. Why would God make it so that people had to sin, say during prohibition, by drinking grape juice. If it wasn't a sin because prohibition had changed what is permissible, then why can't other reasonable changes be made. I think that the grape juice idea, while not required, seems compatible with the Biblical teachings for the symbolic act of remembrance, and it is probably a good idea to both placate those with sensitive hearts and to prevent any abuse of the Last Supper. I don't, however, believe that it is a sin to use wine rather than juice.
waw unbelievable, it is a sin not to do what god had never commanded, that shows how wonderfully crafted this religion is moreover, after all if he Yashua has came to die for the world's sins (which he never mentioned in the man made scriptures ie Bible) so why would God be annoyed with a ritual he and his apostles ( prophets ) never ordered and never mentioned anywhere. wake up pray to the First and the Last, the omnipotent honestly and sincerely to guide you and that is the only salvation.
Good point, but it's not even literalism because the word Jesus uses is FRUIT OF THE VINE, which can mean both grape juice fermented or not fermented (plain grape juice).
A poor man spends everything he has to honor God with grape juice and crackers and partakes in communion. A rich man buys the cheapest wine and bread possible and partakes in communion. Whose sacrifice will be honored?
WOW! I actually agree with Douglas Wilson. Douglas Wilson is correct up until 1:45 in this video but is way off in almost everything he says about Eastern Orthodoxy
Replacing the wine for communion with grapejuice is a sin..Wow.. Someone should get Doug to come back to reality ,,The bible tells you to stone adulterers Doug but you have an Apologetic response for that passage..Yet you cant come to terms with drinking grapejuice and have a convoluted explanation for not substituting the wine.Do you see my bewilderment at your hypocrisy. What about the Holy Ghost Doug? Is that bread or rice paper...? No apology for that distinction? I just shake my head at your interpretations..
Fruit of the vine....so your appreciation of judging pushing a weaker brother who refuses to drink alcohol. You say he is sinning. Hmmm! Oh and you are sinning in your ordinance of representing sprinkling as Baptism. Sorry Brother you are dead wrong must be sinning using the ordinance of rantidzo not baptisma. No instruments in worship. Not even mentioned by Paul and zero congregational singing. Find it.
Sprinkling as baptism: yeah, that TRADITION OF MEN makes no sense scripturally. Agreed. You don't believe in congregational singing tho? I'm sure I'm misreading your comment!
It's important to pay attention to details. Moses didn't enter the promised land because he didn't listen to directions carefully. I commend these discussions though I am convinced that both juice and wine qualify for "fruit of the vine"
.🍇 or🍷❓..unfermented grape juice only exists because of modern refrigeration and pasteurization...and mostly refrigeration...on a hot summer day I've seen our communion shot tray fuzz over with fungi... the drink of the Ancient saints was wine or Barley Beer mixed with water ...and this remained true and normative until the Industrial Revolution (refrigeration) and first wave feminist Prohibition... our common evangelical teettotalling theologies and philosophies stem from this recent history...Prohibition was "the Woke" of the early Last century.. on the other hand...our pious Pilgrims to a man, woman, or child were huge fans of Port🍷and Porter 🍺.... ...at the same time Grape juice is not a "Sin" either...as Jesus specified only "Fruit of the Vine"...not necessarily fermented wine itself...on other occasions it is merely referred to as "the Cup"...in fact our Lord did not even specify grape fruit ...so apparently the juice of any berry fermented or unfermented will do...the bread however was specifically "unfermented"or unleavened ( ...and this is often ignored)... BTW. I come from a thoroughly theologically teetotaling tradition...which is all well and good...except its an unbiblical and legalistic lie...
I attended a church which could have used ordinary grape juice, but instead used red wine because the alcohol lessened the possibility of people getting infected with an infection as the cup of wine was being passed around after the breaking of the loaf of bread.
At Passover they drank 4 cups of unfermented wine. Each cup containing three quarters of a pint, which amounts to 3 pints.
@@nordscan9043 Where are you getting this false information? You sure your not dealing with a modern branch off of Judaism?
@@maceawilder The Mishna.
@@nordscan9043...is full of false doctrine. Why should we trust anything it says about what was done by the Messiah it rejects one night centuries before it existed?
@@wishuhadmyname Because it states the traditions of the Passover.
An old pastor I had many years ago once taught in church that it didn't matter what the drink was. He used the example that if it was all you had, Mountain Dew could be used... I'm now safely planted in a Reformed Baptist church and question that teaching as well as that pastor.
It's important to pay attention to details. Moses didn't enter the promised land because he didn't listen to directions carefully. I commend these discussions though I am convinced that both juice and wine qualify for "fruit of the vine"
Strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.
(This message, bruin4Christ, is not referring to you)
John says "sin is the transgression of the law."
Therefore, regardless of what any antinomian might say or say otherwise, if we are to avoid sin, we must needs avoid transgressing the law. Many who'd split hairs on the manner of communion or tithing will "omit the weightier matters of the law: judgment, and mercy, and faith."
Those are the words of Jesus.
Bruin4Christ, you're totally right... grape juice = a fruit of the vine. Period.
"But..." - someone
No. End of.
Next...
Grape juice as we know today was basically invented in the 1800s as the process of refrigeration came into use. That means as soon as grape juice was pressed 2000 years ago it started to ferment. One could argue that Jesus might have used fresh grape juice that either had no alcohol or just a little. Therefore I am also convinced that both qualify. In the end it comes down to the matter of the heart. It is essential to have a personal conviction on the matter.
@@CPHorrorCPGrape juice would only be available in the fall because that's when the grape harvest is. There are no grapes in the spring.
Paul said that each must be fully convinced in his own mind. If Pastor Doug and all his congregating are "fully convinced" then God bless them and keep them. As for me, the matter is not so settled. Though the Lord's Supper is an adaptation of the Passover Seder, it is so much more, but nowhere near as ritual. As a remembrance, the activity of the faithful heart is paramount. It is our thoughts and intentions that matter. There may be a time or a place when we may not have access to wine or grape juice or unleavened bread. We may only have water and a can of beans...are we then barred from the Lord's Supper? I am settled that that is not the case. Nevertheless, God bless Pastor Doug and Christ Church of Moscow Idaho!
Agreed. Communion is fellowship with other brothers and sisters over a meal of any kind. We're just supposed to remember Jesus while we do it. Eating a piece of bread the size of a quarter with a third of an ounce of wine is like following the letter of the law while missing the spirit of it. Reminds me of the way Jesus spoke to the Pharisees.
@@TheRealMonnie Not to mention, they ate a whole meal and so did the early church.
I think that the church can be a little too particular about some issues. What relates to my salvation or others is what should matter. Otherwise we can get into a person's conscience, dictating what is done, rather than the Bible.
Although it wasn’t unleavened but rather leavened bread.
100%
I've been wondering too about little children not being able to take communion... Jesus said “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
I feel it should not be such a "rule" but yet we should focus on emphasizing the meaning of it... I'd say that including a child into the communion and teaching is way better than forbidding and excluding... Is more about they taking it with their parents and having an example.. so if can or no can doesn't really matter, its more about the relationship in it.
I say that because we took my friends 2 years old twins for communion at one church and I could see the "religious" reaction, when they come to the church I go is not a big deal... they're gnarly little ones, been through so much, do to show them what it is the church and the communion is doing so good for them... They love the grape juice and the bread... They are just kids and they understand Christ in their own way or not but the action is creating a memory... We do associate the "juice" with His blood and sacrifice and teach them what it means.. is like planting a seed, they grasp in their child way. Do you think Jesus would no allow them to have it? Or would he embrace them and show what it means?
Never thought much into this topic before until now. I do think the church should offer options of both wine and grape juice for the sake of conscience as Doug said at the end.
Dealcoholized wine is both wine and considerate for those who have an issue with alcohol. It still contains some alcohol, and unless you're willing to argue that the liquid ceases to be wine under a certain percentage alcohol, it seems like the perfect solution. I do not think such an argument is tenable given the precedent of mixing water with the wine at an unspecified ratio.
There's also the interesting historical policy that must (pre-wine) is acceptable.
At Passover they drank 4 cups of unfermented wine. Each cup containing three quarters of a pint, which amounts to 3 pints.
Yes, I fully agree with you that Scripture is made up of different genres. I don't think anyone would deny this. The problem is that virtually no two "denominations" can always agree on which passages should be taken literally or symbolically. For example in Malachi 1:11 there is a prophecy about Gentile Christians:
Some churches I went to had both juice and wine.
Isn’t grape juice non-fermented wine essentially? Is it not of the vine?
Yes, correct. I'm kinda surprised Doug seems to be ignorant of this.
Jesus did not serve unfermented grape juice in the Supper. Nor at the wedding supper at Cana did He make water turn into grape juice, but to wine, perfectly aged, top-shelf wine. I would suggest doing a study on the occurrences of bread and of wine in the OT, and note that God removes them from the people as signs of the removal of sustenance (bread) and of that which brings joy to the heart (wine). Grape juice is never mentioned except AS wine, because wine is the entire point of grapes, just as bread is the point of grain. The body and blood of Jesus then is that which sustains us, gives us both life, and joy. Partaking of Christ's body and blood is fully orbed.
@@stegokittyTriggered.
@@nordscan9043 Um, you're projecting and it's not very attractive.
@@stegokitty No you are the unattractive one. Trying to argue and divide and think you know the secret ritual to unlock Heaven. What percentage of wine must we use to get to Heaven?
Be exact to the third decimal please. What percentage of alcohol? Plus I command you get your wine from Israel or else. Understood? Is this more attractive to you then?
I quit drinking 8 months ago, and wine for communion would not at all affect me. I applaud Doug on this call. However, calling the use of grape juice sinful is, to me, a stretch.
It seems to me that it just needs to be squeezed from grapes. It’s pretty obvious that it’s the color that matters.
I don't feel the Lord's Supper needs to be observed weekly. So far I have not heard a pastor justify it with any explanation other than "The elders decided." I believe observing it monthly or even quarterly would be sufficient.
Weekly Eucharist is the practice of the ancient church, even Justin Martyr in 150 AD mentions it. Monthly or quarterly Eucharist is an invention of the Reformers.
People gets triggered so easily. This is an honest question and an honest response.
Sorry bad English
🇧🇷
Like the man said, it's not worth a greater sin to divide the body of Christ over. Having said that, an honest question is, would fresh grapes have been available for Passover in those days? Or, would it be alcoholic to store from the last grape harvest?
🍇Passover (early spring) isn't Grape Harvest time...it comes several months later in late Summer and early fall ...so no fresh grape fruit at passover ...
@@anarchorepublican5954 OK so we will use wine vinegar from the bottom of the barrel
The bread is unleavened - no yeast
So wouldn't the juice from the grape have no yeast either? Making it grape juice and not wine?
I am not an expert on alcohol but I do know that yeast is in the air. Do some research on sourdough bread, its fascinating stuff.
...the Bread for Passover was specifically to be unleavened ...due only to the Haste in which the Jews need to depart the following day...no time for the bread to rise ...there was no specific requirement for wine during the Passover Feast...nor would fresh grapes be available in early spring...Jews have a special traditional sweet wine for Passover, and it is fermented...recently however the rabbis now authorize a non-alcoholic version as well...
In our church they have switched back and forth because we had a couple brothers that were struggling with alcoholism that were weak enough that it became a problem.
The excuses ‼️
@🏆Hmmmmmm What should happen in those circumstances though. Walk me through it because I have a member of my congregation who is this way as well.
I'm asking in urgency. Please reply quickly if you are able.
@@Th3BigBoy 🎙️Anyone who is an alcoholic HAS NO BUSSINESS TAKING COMMUNION ANYWAYS ‼️ I CORINTHIANS 11:23-29📜‼️ STOP FINDING EXCUSES FOR SINNERS WHO DOES NOT REPENT.
LAST SUPPER CUP IS WINE NOT GRAPE JUICE! PSALM 75:8 ‼️‼️AND UNLEAVENED WHEAT BREAD EXODUS 29:2.🎙️
TAKING COMMUNION WITH UNLEAVENED WHEAT BREAD 🍞 AND DRINK A CUP OF 🍷 WINE IS RIGHTEOUSNESS 📜
@@Th3BigBoy Fast and Pray in Jesus Name !
@@threetruths123 how is it an excuse? I simply stated a reasonable exception because of a specific situation that came and went. We are back to wine.
If you think the alchohol content is what makes communion important I think you need to reread the bible with mercy for the weak brothers in mind.
Jesus did not even allude to “wine,” fermented or not! He simply made mention of “the fruit of the vine.” It is more than interesting to note that the word He used for “fruit” is not the ordinary word that refers to produce. This word is related to “that which is generated or begotten.” The only thing from a vine that is generated or begotten is its berry or the juice from its berry-not alcohol. That is something that is produced as a by-product through a process.
@@alexanderalbano5897 If your argument is that grape juice left to itself will ferment, then what is the problem partaking of grape juice for communion, knowing that in some way and to some extent it, by your argument, has fermented and therefore fulfills your requirement? The point is valid, the Scripture never says "wine" in ordinance for the Lord's Supper, it simply says "fruit of the vine" which leaves open the possibility to use grape juice and be completely within the language of Scripture. Their argument is not ignorant.
@@sparkyellis6128 grapes naturally have yeast on the skin. When you press grapes they begin to ferment, in less than a day.
Grape juice now is pasteurised to kill the yeast after pressing, so as long as it is kept cool, and in an airtight container it will not ferment.
I do not see a problem with using grape juice instead of wine. But I don't think there would have been grape juice available in spring during that time period since grapes are harvested in the autumn. How would pressed grapes have stored as grape juice from autumn until spring 2000 years ago?
@@sparkyellis6128 I don't profess by any means to know it all, but this is my humble and largely uneducated opinion on the matter.
Yes! You are right. 👍
@@dmythica They had their ways of preserving things. Try not to be so narrow minded.
I am a recovering alcoholic - can I have grape juice instead?
Absolutely.
At Passover they drank 4 cups of unfermented wine. Each cup containing three quarters of a pint, which amounts to 3 pints.
Look for answers from Scripture. Not what random people say is okay or not. Wine in communion was wine. Grape juice is unfermented wine which didn't exist until the late 19th century, but I'm not sure that it classifies as wine. I do know pretty early in the church they would mix water and wine to symbolize the mixing of water and blood that took place in Jesus' death but this is not laid out in scripture. If you attend a church that serves wine, then know that AA does make exceptions for communion. If you take of it with a contrite heart, knowing your tendencies, it can even teach you the proper place for alcohol in a believer's life. This is in keeping with 1 Corinthians 11 which rebuked the church for getting drunk off of communion and tells them to examine themselves and take it alongside the rest of the church. Take it together with others that know your struggle and can keep you accountable. I know this is years late and if your pastor has directed you otherwise, do not let me cause disunity between you and your church. God bless brother. I pray you have experienced the life changing power of the Holy Spirit through your struggle with drunkenness.
@@nordscan9043Grape harvesting season in the fall. How did they manage to store grapes or grape juice for 6 months without it rotting or fermenting?
@@RickyVis I think you'll be surprised.
If I've got my information correct they called it wine even if it wasn't fermented, and yeast was used for the fermentation process which wouldn't have been lawful at the Passover meal that they were celebrating. Am I wrong?
Yes. Wine means the naturally fermented kind in the Bible.
@@gracefool thanks gracefool. So did they never drink grape juice?
@@tonymoore566 Yes but it naturally ferments. So there was never *zero* alcohol.
Beyond that, many verses about wine (including Jesus' first miracle) clearly assume enough alcohol to have mental effects, impair judgement etc.
@@gracefool thank you sir
It is not implied that the wine Jesus made in the wedding at Cana had mental effects. In fact, it is implied that the wine Jesus made had no mental effects! The head of the feast said that the "best wine" (agathos: meaning superior in quality) is served first, but you have saved the "best" (kalos: meaning morally superior) wine till last. Furthermore, the statement about how normally guests were served the best wine first and then served the cheaper wine last (implying that they were inebriated) is a general one, not one necessarily specific to that event. @Tony Moore you are correct in saying that it would have been unlawful to drink what we now call "alcohol" at the Passover feast because of the presence of yeast. This is why the scriptures clearly state that Jesus and the disciples drank the "fruit of the vine" at the last supper, clearly avoiding use of the word "oinos," which could mean the presence of alcohol. However, @gracefool, you are not correct in saying that fresh grape juice was immediately alcoholic. For the sake of brevity, I will refer you to the book "Ancient Wine & the Bible" by David R. Brumbelow, which clearly shows how the ancients made and preserved grape juice for very long periods of time. My last argument is a theological one. Consider Proverbs 23, where it says not to even look at wine when it sparkles/turneth itself aright/et al. in the cup, when it goes down smoothly. The words used for "sparkling" or "turning" in the cup actually paint a picture of the wine clinging to the edge of the cup, thereby revealing an alcoholic content. Proverbs 23 goes on to show the road to drunkenness and ruin, starting with gazing into the cup. If Proverbs says this, and Jesus is the Word of God, how is it that his first miracle was giving alcoholic "wine" to his neighbor? How could Jesus been pleasing to the Father and simultaneously performed this miracle? Furthermore, how could Jesus have properly performed his priestly duties if he was under the influence? It is clearly prohibited to drink while performing priestly duties. I urge all my brothers in Christ, to not drink anything that is fermented into alcohol. Do not be deceived by such talk as "moderation" with alcohol. The Bible clearly states that it is not a line in the sand, it is a road you should avoid at all costs! I have had these same questions for a long time (mainly the one regarding Proverbs 23) and after doing a great deal of research (primary source research in many cases) discovered the things I have told you and much more. One last thing: please do no dismiss my arguments flippantly and please look into this as I have. I find it very discouraging that many Christians (even reformed) are so dismissive of these facts and instead rely on incorrect assumptions based on modern language which is built in part on scientific and chemical distinctions that the ancients did not have, namely the word "alcohol."
Examine oneself first.
Matthew 5:22-24. Corinthians 10:16.17. Are we not all partakers in this communion? Lets not forget, we are redeemed guest at his table. Lets not be little children and quibble, let us remember what he said. This do until he come, his death burial and resurrection.
This is the craziest thing I have ever heard.
Why is it crazy?
@@supersmart671Right? WHY is it soooo crazy to use wine for communion?
The person you posted to is probably Baptist. They are extremely strict about alcohol.
What about leavened bread? At passover where the Lord instituted The Lord's Supper, unleavened bread was used. Furthermore, leaven is a significant symbol in scripture, so it isn't a meaningless detail.
Sure...Leavened Bread is the New Covenant Pentecost Bread. Jesus uses an illustration of leavened bread for the Kingdom of God. The Resurrected Christ is the Bread of Life, not the Bread of Affliction...
That was old covenant.
When yeast is added to grape juice, a chemical change takes place- the sugar in the grapes are changed to alcohol. For the most part, in the Scripture leaven is typified as sin, therefore, alcoholic wine is no longer the fruit of the vine of which our Lord spoke of.
Grape juice, left by itself, will naturally begin fermentation. Winemakers add yeast to speed up the process, but it naturally occurs from the yeast that develops on the grape's skin. The yeast is passed on during pressing. The process isn't always 100%, as the naturally occurring yeast may have low alcohol tolerance and the fermentation will end before all the sugars have been consumed. There was no known method prior to 1869 to prevent the fermentation of grape juice 100%. Thomas Bramwell Welch invented the first method for pasteurization of grapes. Prior to that all grape juice naturally became alcoholic, but varied in content without added yeast.
(Luke 5:37-39) "And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. {38} But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. {39} No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better."
There is new wine, and there is old wine. Both are wine. So which one did Jesus give to his disciples?
(1 Samuel 1:14-16) "And Eli said unto her, How long wilt thou be drunken? put away thy wine from thee. {15} And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD. {16} Count not thine handmaid for a daughter of Belial: for out of the abundance of my complaint and grief have I spoken hitherto."
Hannah knew what it meant to be accused of drinking wine. Curious why pastors don't?
Not all people can have real wine. It makes my blood pressure go up. So I do not think its a sin if you are not physically able.
I disagree, and for this man to condemn people over alcoholic or non alcoholic grape juice.. It will not be well for this man.
For his sake, I hope he gets his wine from Israel, from the same vine Jesus got his grape juice from.
I would be more concerned about the sin of putting temptation of alcohol into an alcoholic. And the spiritual intimidation put upon him to comply.
At Passover they drank 4 cups of unfermented wine. Each cup containing three quarters of a pint, which amounts to 3 pints.
@@nordscan9043 No. The process for keeping grape juice from fermenting didn't exist until 2-3 hundred years ago. In fact, that process was invented by Welch whom I'm sure rings a bell.
AA makes exceptions for communion. It is a gross legalism to think that an alcoholic sins in taking communion. In fact, the greater sin is convincing them they are sinning by taking communion. They will not get drunk off of it and when done with a contrite heart, it can even teach them the proper use of alcohol. This idea propogated by the secular world and adapted by many Christians that alcoholics can't change is unbiblical.
@@maceawilder Clown
@@maceawilder I agree. That’s not what I meant. I meant that we should be careful consider where they are at. For some of them a taste of strong drink might put them at risk. I want to protect them, not judge them. When we were in Ukraine, their communion wine was so strong, just a sip made me a bit dizzy. I was concerned for those with us who had a history of addiction. My husband is set free, but he still didn’t dare take that chance.
What about the recovering alcoholic
I think the big question is interpretation of scripture, especially when there are so many denominations and non denominations out there. Ask yourself how you know your interpretation is infallible
Churches use a tiny plastic vial for communion which is not a "drink," but a "sip" and this is not what they used at the Last Supper, Jesus drank out of a CUP. He didn't say "sip," He said "drink." So if you really want to imitate Christ use a cup. However, it is not wise to drink wine by the cup and then drive home from a church! Seeing that Jesus used in the Greek "fruit of the vine" (not oinos meaning wine) it is more fitting to use grape juice. But if you are at home having communion you could use wine if you have a stomach for it, but primarily fruit of the vine is grape juice and/or the "offspring" of the vine in its purest form. I use a whole cup at my home communion services and use grape juice not wine. But it is entirely okay to use wine if you want and if a cup of it doesn't get you "buzzed." But most non drinkers would get a buzz from that and the bible does warn about that at communion.
So you cannot drink out of a small cup? Btw, Oxford Dictionary defines the verb “sip” as:
_”drink_ (something) by taking small mouthfuls.”
Do with that what you will 🤗
Bingo. I'm not one to split hairs over "traditions," but while we're on the subject with this odd video... I'll say, I've always thought it strange that when we want to remember the abundance that JESUS has shed forth for us in his redemptive work, we use teeny plastic thimbals in place of cups. And pieces of bread not fit for a mouse.
Odd, very odd.
"But..."
No folks, think about it.
If we follow Dough's logic everything has to be exact😢😢😢😢
Im grateful for doug Wilson’s tremendous leadership and commitment to scripture. This idea of serving alcohol in church is GROTESQUE!!! I would have quietly left.
Not a single person can convince me that Jesus was telling everyone to get liqueured up to remember his sacrifice.
One tiny drink is not going to liquor up anyone. But you certainly should not go against your conscience if you think it is wrong to use wine
oἶνος is the word used in the bible. It is clearly wine. Not grape juice.
@@joshsomerville6048 your conclusion is your opinion. There are many things much more clear in scripture than whether this word referred to alcoholic wine or grape juice. For instance Peter told women not to wear gold. Are you a stickler for that one? Why not?
Paul said if a man won’t work let him starve? Have you ever given to a person in your church or even a homeless person if you were unsure of their work status?
WOULD you let someone starve?????
But you will strain at this kind of gnat interpretation to drink 🍺 won’t you?
People pushing alcohol in church as an issue to fight about but swallowing moats clearly repeated in the NT are hypocritical at best.
@@G1stGBless It isn't my opinion. It is what the koine Greek says. You're the one who is using an opinion. It was clearly wine. That's simply the word in Greek. I agree with everything Paul says. On gold jewellery and in Thessalonians The verses preceding the instruction to those unwilling to work relate a positive example: “You ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate” (2 Thessalonians 3:7-9). Paul and his companions did not come to the people of Thessalonica to take food or money from them but to share Christ with them. They were willing to work a side job to provide for their food.
In contrast, if any Christian worker came to a church and refused to work, Paul says not to offer him food. This instruction also had application to people within their congregation. Verses 11-12 note, “We hear that some among you are idle and disruptive. They are not busy; they are busybodies. Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the food they eat.” This is the Christian work ethic. Believers are to be known for working hard, not for a lazy attitude.
Youre the one ignoring scripture. The word is clearly wine.
@@joshsomerville6048 the words in Mark Jesus used (where i literally happened to be reading this morning in devotions, bc I refuse to look this up to argue with you) are γεννήματος γέννημα τῆς ὁἀμπέλου
ἄμπελος (fruit of the vine) gennēma ho ampelos, which is NOT what you said “the Bible” 😂 says. It’s ludicrous you would claim “the Bible” says something as if you personally can guarantee it is worded identically to your opinion in every instance.
Then re’Mark’abley the first instance I come across in reading submarines your opinions.
Look, I’m going to heed Titus warnings and only address you about your alcohol issues and opinions here 2x. If you wish to keep posting and indulging your flesh with booze and contentions when and where you like including in church then have at it. I would strongly caution against it.
May God bless and lead you.
Btw I could be wrong about nearly anything I said bc I am a human and subject to mistakes. If I am mistaken on this issue and you are supposed to drink booze in church to remember Christs blood then my guess is I will receive no punishment for consuming non alcoholic fruit of the vine. Meanwhile I would hate to hold your position and be trying to lead others into alcoholic error and be wrong (especially considering many people greatly struggle with strong drink which is of course warned against many times). The consequences of your error could/would be much worse (especially for recoverings) than inviting people to recall the Lord sacrifice with fruit of the vine which is non-alcoholic.
But it doesn’t change the fact that I could be wrong here because I have been wrong before.
Peace ✌️
I think it is ridiculous to worry about what is in the cup. Now you are going back to the law just like the Jews originally did. Communion is about remembering Christ and his sacrifice on the cross. Two men in prison use water for communion, oh they sinned! Better to not have communion than to sin! Right? Wrong! The sin you would have committed is to think the Law saved
What about non alcoholic wine?
At Passover they drank 4 cups of unfermented wine. Each cup containing three quarters of a pint, which amounts to 3 pints.
Has anyone considered those that have allergies to tannins or sulfites. Most red wine contain both.
Has anyone considered that they drank 4 cups of wine for passover. Each cup containing three quarters, the men, women and children had to drink. Alcohol is a by product of leaven. They could not have anything that was leavened over passover.
Does anyone considered the diabetics the can’t have sugar? Or the people that can’t have gluten?
They don't care, their man made tradition is more important to them than the truth
Why does anyone give D.W. authority? What are his credentials?
Love God and love your neighbor. Let's focus on that. Not keeping with EXAMPLES from the Bible is no big deal. Not keeping Jesus' commands is different. What are his commands? The great commission. Love one another. Let's walk in the fruits of the spirit instead of pointing out preferences as sins. Relax, live in God's grace. Feel free. Experience his love. Tell others about him. Love them. Reject legalism at every corner.
Aweful answer!
I grieve for your congregation 😔
Why?
I agree but it's not Doug's congregation.
I grieve for these Christian congregations under any shepherd but Jesus.
"There shall be one fold, and one shepherd." - JESUS
The Greek word for fermented wine is "oinos" meaning wine (fermented grape juice.). This is NOT the word used for the drink at the Last Supper. But it is the word used in the Wedding of Cana (changed water into wine). The references to the drink in the Last Supper the word FRUIT OF THE VINE is used which is not specifically wine and more specifically grape juice. But wine could also be used, providing you are not driving and you are using a cup like Jesus did and not a tiny plastic vile like churches use.
I'm not following you. For one, Passover is not celebrated with grape juice; the Last Supper was where Jesus observed "the Passover with My disciples." And it is understood that the cup at Passover is a cup of "wine," in the same way that the "bread" eaten is unleavened. Juice that is not fermented contains yeast, which is forbidden at Passover; fermentation kills the yeast (Ex. 12:19). Second, Jesus does not use any word for wine at this Passover; "fruit of the vine" includes wine, as well as juice, but in no way excludes wine any more than America includes Ohio, as well as Nebraska, but in no way excludes Ohio; it's a general term. The reason Jesus, as a Jew, refers to the Passover wine as the "fruit of the vine" is simply the blessed pronounced over it: "After he gave thanks..." i.e., "Baruch ata ADONAI Eloheinu Melech ha-olam, borei peri ha-gafen (Blessed are you, O LORD, our God, who createst the Fruit of the Vine)."
@@c.a.g.3130 This is what she said:
"The references to the drink in the Last Supper the word FRUIT OF THE VINE is used which is not specifically wine and more specifically grape juice. But wine could also be used".
This is what you said:
" Jesus does not use any word for wine at this Passover; "fruit of the vine" includes wine, as well as juice, but in no way excludes wine ".
What am I missing? It looks to me that you're both saying the same thing on that point, however, what you say about yeast may be valid, and I'm not sure why she would introduce a new point to divide over, that being the container the drink is put in, unless that part was meant as a joke. All of that being said, I've always wished baptists just used wine since a simple reading of the English Bible says wine.
@@sonofjay817 I agree with you.
That’s a cute Baptist argument, but we all know what wine means. The whole “the grape juice wasn’t fermented” bit has to be one of the sadder arguments ever born out of American Evangelicalism
whars wrong with the tiny plastic vials?
Alcoholics are not permitted to take wine. Do you want to exclude them from Communion? Why not offer both options at The Table - leaded and unleaded.
And, there is no way in the world I would give my child wine, beer, or Vodka. That is simply bad parenting in my opinion and practice.
dennis , Christians are not alcoholics, friend. Forget what humans want, what is CHRIST'S Command?
So if you're an alcoholic you're not saved (Christian)?
Christ's command is to drink the fruit of the vine, which of course from the grape. Jesus does NOT say "wine." Either grape juice or wine is fine, BOTH are fruit of the vine. Grapes are the fruit and/or product of the wine. Please do not believe what a youtube video says, go to www.blueletterbible.com and look up the Greek and Latin and English meanings for yourself.
What if for medical reasons one cannot drink alcohiol?
Doug's talking about on the church level, not the individual. Also, exceptions do not disprove a rule.
Canon Press I understand that it doesn't disprove a rule but are you saying that it's not only a church sin but an individual sin?
Listen at 2 minutes to what Doug says about when he was "committing" that sin but avoiding a larger one. Yes it's a lack of conformity to the word of God, so it's a sin, but a small one (if that makes sense).
Canon Press
yes. I listened to it twice.
Thank youforresponding
I'm my country Kenya many churches do it cuz of the price of wine.
Thank you for pointing this out. I have done missionary work in many places where finding wine is impossible. My Wilson handles this with a lot more charity than others do, but the idea of grape juice being a sin is often because they assume that every use of grape juice is a result of believing alcohol is a sin. It's a very American understanding of the issues.
@@drummermajor Oh i see. I had no Idea that was the issue. Thank you Rosso for taking the time
@@biblicalbee2082 it is in a lot of cases, that a lot of American evangelicals believe that alcohol is a sin.
I always contend that there are other reasons why one might use grape juice instead of wine. Your example perfectly displays that, and I appreciate your perspective. God bless
@@biblicalbee2082 I enjoy hearing the perspective of non-American Christians. It helps to give me a broader view of topics.
I’m surprised he took this position. The method of the sacrament isn’t above the purpose. The purpose is to remind us of Christ’s sacrifice, not to ingest a certain amount of alcohol. By Doug’s argument, we could argue over what type of bread to use too 😂
Come on, Doug. I like your teaching basically, but that’s some heavy semanticism in the beginning there. By no means can it be considered a sin.
Re the semanticism here: I couldn't agree more!
grape juice is much easier for priests to turn into blood, but still difficult. The alcohol makes it challenging so, they just dropped it altogether
Does your church use incense or offer a "pure offering"??? (literally a grain offering - i.e. the eucharistic bread).
Why does St Paul say that some have become sick and died for taking the Eucharist unworthily? Why would that happen if it's purely a "symbolic"?
This interpretation is tremendously wrong given that this doesn't happen today.
That verse is best understood in light of the fact that from 11:17 forwards we see that the sin committed that dishonors communion is how the people were treating each other, in response to which Paul says that they don't even eat the Supper. The sickness and death should be understood in this context. Since the purpose of the Supper is the communion of the saints, the divisions and abuse that took place at the time declared the wickedness instead of what the Supper is supposed to declare, thus profaning the name of Yeshua.
so based on what he said, everyone who has communion is sinning as we don't use the same things that Jesus us. we don't use the same type of bread (an arguement aganist this would be that it is still bread of one type or another but that could be argued that wine is one form of grape juice). also what about recovering alcoholics or those who do not which to take anything that is a non medical drug on religous grounds, don't these people need to be catered for? i think his view is focusing to much on the physicall and not enough on the spirital aspect of communion, it is about remembering christs sacrifice, some churches in africa use bannanas and cola because thats what they could get hold of. the act of remebering christ's sacrifice is more important than what you do it with. also what about children, are you saying that we should give young children wine?
The Greek word for unleavened bread was not used. Jesus used the regular word for bread “artos,” not unleavened bread ("azumos"). In regards to the drink, Jesus uses fruit of the vine (Greek word is fruit of the vine not wine). So regular bread and regular grape juice IS scriptural. "“In all three Gospels what Jesus gave the disciples is “artos,” meaning simply “bread.” It is striking that He is not said to have given them “azumos” or “azuma” which are the proper words for unleavened bread..." REF: newtestamentchurch.com/articles-of-interest-to-church-planters/communion-bread/
So if you are not using the right type of bread are you sinning?
Grape juice is actually the literal translation in both Greek, Latin, English, Italian. The Greek word Jesus used was NOT wine, it was γέννημα génnēma, ghen'-nay-mah; from G1080; offspring; by analogy, produce (literally or figuratively):-FRUIT, generation. English meaning: FRUIT OF THE VINE. And let's look at the Latin "de hoc genimine vitis" which also means FRUIT OF THE VINE. The Italian bible also translates it as "frutto della vite" (FRUIT OF THE VINE). If it was simply "vino" as in alcohol, it certainly would've been translated VINO in the land of vino, Italy.
Hear! Hear!
How did they get unfermented fruit of the vine in spring 2000 years ago, when grapes are harvested in autumn?
@@dmythica So you are telling me Jesus is incapable of providing himself unfermented fruit of the vine? The creator of heaven and earth cannot speak this into existence? Just because the season is not the appropriate time according to you. Did He not provide a place for this Passover celebration by a miracle but the drink for Passover is much to hard for Him.
@@TheDoorChurchThePottersHouse because Jesus as a rabbi, is following the Jewish precepts for Passover. The fruit of the vine includes wine. And wine is an alcoholic drink.
Drinking grape juice isn’t a sin. The king James Bible uses the word wine because the word juice did not exist. Wine simply means the nectar from the vine
Wine IS grape juice, it's just been fermented.
And some of us CAN'T drink wine, even a tiny bit, so would this guy have us believe we can't take part in communion?
Obviously there would be exceptions, just like we're commanded to attend church but I know someone who can't leave the house so they listen from home.
@@firingallcylinders2949 During the current situation many churches aren't even meeting. My church started doing a series we call "Worship At Home". The pastor records her weekly sermon, the music director records two pieces of music, they send them to me and I make a video out of it that goes to the congratulation. It's a LOT of work, but it's doing a good service and my video making skills are getting much better.
@@JeffDeWitt My church didn't have service from April to June but we're back now.
@@firingallcylinders2949 Mine didn't either, we are doing the online thing plus we are meeting in the parking lot for a short outdoor service. As we have an older congregation and our space isn't that big we decided it was best to be very conservative about when we have services in our building again. The real point is we are meeting and we are getting the message out, and our worship at home services are reaching people who never would have made it to our little church. On a good Sunday we might have 25 to 30 people, one of our recent Sunday messages had almost 150 people watch it all the way through. If you are interested here is our message from last Sunday. facebook.com/watch/?v=343716243464009
@@JeffDeWitt No such thing as a female pastor. The "Usurper" records her weekly sermon
2 Timothy 2:23 Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.
Yes I don’t think it’s a big deal.
Love God and love your neighbor. Let's focus on that. Not keeping with EXAMPLES from the Bible is no big deal. Not keeping Jesus' commands is different. What are his commands? The great commission. Love one another. Let's walk in the fruits of the spirit instead of pointing out preferences as sins. Relax, live in God's grace. Feel free. Experience his love. Tell others about him. Love them. Reject legalism at every corner.
@@TheRealMonnie Wilson is not being legalistic here. You may not agree, but that does not mean he is being legalistic.
@@mary-janechambers3596 So, you wouldn't quarrel then with those who do?
@@TheRealMonnie Cupcakes and punch oughta be good enough for anyone.
"For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations," says the LORD of hosts.
This passage prophetically declares that Gentile worshipers of God will use incense and "grain offerings" (i.e the Eucharistic bread). Nevertheless, this passage would be likely described as "symbolic" by low church evangelicals with a
Some would attribute it to a future Millennial Kingdom...
And maybe some gentiles already have 🤷♂️
I find it telling how Protestants claim to take the Bible literally, but when it comes to Christ saying "this is my body, this is my blood", the think it says "think represents my body, this represents my blood".
Malachi 1:11 says "For from the rising of the sun even to the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered to my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, said the LORD of hosts".
"Literally" does not mean "literalistically" in its proper Protestant usage. It means "according to the literary form." In this case, Protestants take the form of the statement to be a metaphor while taking the larger passage as a literal (non-allegorical) depiction of the Last Supper.
This seems really silly, Jesus just picked up his cup with what he happened to be drinking at the time. It’s a symbol that could easily be done with water or orange juice it’s just that red wine was a better metaphor for him to use to symbolize his blood
Generally really like your theology though Doug
The 2 great commands, are the ten commandments. The first 4, how to love God specific. The remaining 6, to love neighbor specific.
Crazy never such nonsense had to be wine. It sounds like Catholicism.
Romans 14:20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. If you serve alcohol in communion to a Christian who is also alcoholic you would be destroying the work of God for the sake of food. You are wrong sir on this point. Good day & God Bless...
This is what happens when we take passages that are descriptive and make them prescriptive.
Will you expand this more?
But what is the reason it is a sin?
Because it's grape 🍇 juice and not wine
You know wine is grape juice, right?
I don’t believe wine was used during Passover... was not permitted during and at this part of the Passover meal
You would be incorrect. And you would need to provide proof of your claim.
I have no qualm about this response, so long as you also exclusively use unleavened bread for communion (which is clearly prescribed in the Law of Moses).
Jesus said FRUIT of the vine, meaning the raw natural grape or UNFERMENTED grapes. Jesus didn't drink wine during the Passover. For a grape or fruit of the vine to become wine the fruit or grape must go through the FERMENTING process. Which in turn would produce wine.
So in the Bible there’s two words for wine, one meaning new wine (or juice) and the other being alcoholic wine. So technically grape juice is a valid substitute.
Not true. New wine is high in alcohol content because the sugars are rapidly being covered to alcohol sugars. I know this because ive been a wine maker for many years. That's why you hear about new wine being put into new skins so that the expansion from gases don't bust it. New wine in ancient times was a treat because it didn't take nearly as much to get a buzz.
@@joshhigdon4951 Ah, interesting! I always thought that verse seemed a bit odd since I know very little about wine, but what you said makes a lot of sense
@@B33nj4m1n yes. I have a legalistic cousin pastor, whom I love to death, that makes the judge argument. New wine, in every context in Scripture, has a special context. It's not because it is juice. Any wine that is made has the highest alcohol content within the first week after the start of fermentation. It is potent. Mine sits at 25-30% until about a month in. Then it lessens over time to about 10-15
The Eucharist is the center of Christian worship. Over the last 500 years, it’s been turned into a sideshow by Protestants. At every liturgy, a sacrifice should be made to God and a portion of that sacrifice is returned to the people in the body and blood of Christ. Instead, we get long sermons about “purpose driven lives” and wealth management strategies. If you don’t attend a church that believes in the physical presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, just stay home and watch the 700 club.
wine has leaven in it and leaven is symbolic for “sin” if the wine is suppose to be Jesus’s blood then it ought NOT to have leaven in it because Jesus’s blood was precious sinless blood, plus that was the Passover they were celebrating and leaven was forbidden during pass over …. Stick with grape juice….. also the juice was called wine as soon as it left the grape ….. come on now people
This is ridiculous to even argue about. Wine and grape juice are materially the same thing. Churches shouldn’t be splitting over this or wasting time on it.
False.
@@CanonPressbut isn’t the attitude of communion and what it represents way more important than the drink itself?
I know this may not sit well, but don't care about following traditions. You should care, but don't. The reason I say that is because Jesus went against the traditions of the Jewish people because they were so focused on following traditions that they lost their meaning. If you shed the blood of the lamb, it means nothing and should not be followed as a tradition if you are Jewish. If you shed the blood of your dog or your cat, then that is better than shedding the blood of a lamb. The reason why this made our sins forgiven was that it meant something to us when we did it. It wasn't the lamb that was special, it was the pain inside from killing a house pet. If you can create that type of fellowship with God through grape juice but you can not do it with wine because you choose not to drink, then choose to use grape juice because it is what puts you in the mindset to commemorate the last supper.
Psalm 75:8
It's more than a symbol. It's worship and commanded, unlike baby dedications...
He's basically calling grape juice a sin of omission. Good Lord, people. We do that all the time. That's why we must confess....
Yeah, don't dedicate those babies...baptize 'em!
As smart as Doug Wilson is, is he ignorant of the fact that "wine" in the Bible means both fermented and unfermented juice?
I was under the impression that, biblically, they are both wine; 'old' and 'new' wine, and, I don't think the bible specifies which to use for communion.
Grape juice is not new wine. Ever seen anyone drunk on grape juice? See Acts 2:13.
@@stegokitty New wine is freshly squeezed grape must, which is impossible to get drunk on. They were being sarcastic( if you know what that means).
@@nordscan9043 Clearly you know absolutely nothing about wine, nor about fermentation; as well clearly you know how to read into a text whatever you wish for it to say. It's call eisegesis (if you now what that means). There is no sarcasm being employed in Acts 2:13, as there's zero reason for it to be sarcasm. Why would someone who is making fun of another person, suggesting that they're drunk, use sarcasm? I'm guessing that you think that Jesus turned the water to grape juice at the wedding; and that the Lord would never condone the drinking of alcohol, much less make it a blessing unto mankind.
@@stegokitty Because people would usually get drunk at night time, that was the joke genius! Must or gleukos newly pressed grape juice.
@@stegokitty At Passover they drank 4 cups of unfermented wine. Each cup containing three quarters of a pint, which amounts to 3 pints.
The Bible says Jesus had the grapes there. Wine doesn’t squeeze out of grapes, but grape juice does. This guy thinks juice contaminated with Leven represents the pure blood of Jesus. 🤡
Use Merlot intend of grape juice, no one will no the difference. But that would be a sin as it is a lie of omission. Cant win.
Isnt there Non Alcoholic wine?
+Aaron James non alcoholic wine is basically grape fruit. then again wine is basically grape juice.
Exactly Doug is just plain wrong on this one. Still love him though.
Wine by definition is alcoholic...
Symbols don't save.
But what’s behind symbolism speaks a lot.
There are things which do not save, but through which salvation comes -- speaking of 'salvation' broadly.
Cheers :)
Grape juice is free of toxin, kinda seems more reverent.
First let's understand that the biblical term for "wine" regarding the communion and the "wine" Jesus drank was from the "fruit of the vine" (in other words, grape juice)
. It was NON alcoholic. Plus back in those days people had to drink all day just to get a buzz or drunk.
No where in the Bible are we encouraged to drink wine nor to get buzzed or drunk , in fact Proverbs reminds us that "wine is a mocker, strong drink (alcoholic beverages) is raging and whoever is decieved by it is not wise" .
psalm 104:15 God makes the wine, which makes the human heart cheerful. Do you think "cheerful" comes from grape juice?
I once asked another, who said this same thing, what does "wine is a mocker" _mean?_ He said it means "wine is a mocker". He did not seem to understand the first chapter of Proverbs: "for understanding proverbs and parables, the sayings and riddles of the wise".
He seemed to think the proverb was self-explanatory, as it were.
Jesus made wine for the wedding. Would he make wine if it were sinful to drink it? We know it's wine because the passage makes it clear that you can get drunk from it.
Also, proverbs 31:6 says to give wine to those who have a heavy heart.
Some qualifications for ... Deacons, I believe, are to not be given to MUCH wine. Why not be given to much grape juice? It's talking about being an alcoholic. Notice it doesn't say they can't drink ANY wine: just not MUCH wine.
I wonder if the alcoholic content of wine today is different than the alcoholic content of wine in Jesus' day and does it matter?
Foolish!
"Luke 11:39 Then the Lord said to him, “Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness."
The purpose of communion is not taking the wine or the bread and then walking away (in fact Paul talks against that in 1 Corinthians 11:20-21). The point of communion is as Jesus said after the wine and after the bread; "in remembrance of me" (1 Cor. 11:24-25).
I disagree that drinking juice is a sin. And it doesn't matter anyway.
Etienne Casassa , i am glad to see you using Holy Scripture. What is CHRIST'S Command about "this cup" (the wine from the first Communion)?
It does matter, One of God's primary ways of teaching us is through symbol. We are taught about the fatherhood of God by seeing our own fathers and becoming fathers ourselves, we are taught about the Union of Christ and the church through marriage. The Old testament is filled with Types that find their fufillment in Christ. The importance of Symbol in correct christian worship is why we baptize believers by immersion. We are Identifying with Christs death, burial and resurrection in the going into the water going under and coming back up. If we mess with the symbol we propagate misinformation about God and his kingdom.
Doug, really?
This is a good video for understanding what is at the very bottom of Wilson's theology of the bible. His young-earth position arises out of a the same theology. Without really getting into that I'll just say that the notion that all Christians are required by God to consume ethanol(C2H6O), the metabolic waste products of fermented grapes a few times a year is biblical legalism, and besides that, fails to understand both context and practice of celebratory covenant meals in the ancient world.
His position here is a result of putting Scripture first in all considerations.
Zwinglian view of sacraments. Yet, historic Christianity has always viewed this passage as prophetic of the Church's Liturgical worship - a worship "style" rejected by most evangelicals. I was a staunch Calvinist most of my life - until I found Orthodoxy a few years ago. I defended Sola Scriptura - but reason and more importantly, Church history has shown me that Sola Scriptura is itself unbiblical and is the invention of the Reformers. It has now become a protestant "tradition".
Doug...'sigh'...I love you but...'sigh' ...smh...I mean...ok. let me just explain. Ok wait. Let's just put it this...'sigh'. whatever.
Ok. You are a wonderful brother. And yes, you can be a bit brutal in your delivery. Yet I still appreciate you. However, no matter what, you simply cannot say it's 'sin' to use grape juice. It's the fruit of the vine. It is done in remembrance of His death until He comes. And even more. Yet we have direct didactic teaching on the subject, and it doesn't include the quality and ingredients - at least this ingredients or state of the wine. You are well aware that at the time, the fruits of the vine often did not contain any or much alcohol. And a simple meditation on the issue would or should permit the fact that alcohol in the juice used is nowhere/no way necessary for the sacrament. I believe, my dear friend Doug,you have erred (sinned) though not meaning to. And that in regards to the Lord's Supper! And the result is that many will stumble. Please think harder, pray harder and do what is right. Take this video down after taking it "back".
lol....reformed people...
Yeah, I find that certain reformed folk seem to miss the forest for the trees. It reminds me of Judaism in some ways. They worry, as in the example given, about the tenth of the mint, dill, and cumin but they forget about the weighty matters. The point is to be in remembrance of the atoning death of Christ through a symbolic act. The point is not that every Christian must, during the symbolic act, drink and eat only those specific forms of food and drink. Why would God make it so that people had to sin, say during prohibition, by drinking grape juice. If it wasn't a sin because prohibition had changed what is permissible, then why can't other reasonable changes be made. I think that the grape juice idea, while not required, seems compatible with the Biblical teachings for the symbolic act of remembrance, and it is probably a good idea to both placate those with sensitive hearts and to prevent any abuse of the Last Supper. I don't, however, believe that it is a sin to use wine rather than juice.
lol....noun phrases
waw unbelievable, it is a sin not to do what god had never commanded, that shows how wonderfully crafted this religion is moreover, after all if he Yashua has came to die for the world's sins (which he never mentioned in the man made scriptures ie Bible) so why would God be annoyed with a ritual he and his apostles ( prophets ) never ordered and never mentioned anywhere. wake up pray to the First and the Last, the omnipotent honestly and sincerely to guide you and that is the only salvation.
John 6:54-56
This is just an expression of stupid literalism...grape juice...sin...give me a break!
Good point, but it's not even literalism because the word Jesus uses is FRUIT OF THE VINE, which can mean both grape juice fermented or not fermented (plain grape juice).
A poor man spends everything he has to honor God with grape juice and crackers and partakes in communion. A rich man buys the cheapest wine and bread possible and partakes in communion. Whose sacrifice will be honored?
This has to be a joke right? lol
@@tjs.5044 why would this be a joke?
Genuinely wondering.
Bible says Wine not grape juice. Learn the truth about communion at John 6:54-56
None of the gospels or epistles mention unleavened bread or wine. Look at the Greek.
John 6 doesn't teach transubstantiaction either.
Maybe you should read some Early Church Fathers
WOW! I actually agree with Douglas Wilson. Douglas Wilson is correct up until 1:45 in this video but is way off in almost everything he says about Eastern Orthodoxy
probably because he is not Eastern Orthodox.
@@peterh.8027 makes sense
fashion sins
......?
Replacing the wine for communion with grapejuice is a sin..Wow.. Someone should get Doug to come back to reality ,,The bible tells you to stone adulterers Doug but you have an Apologetic response for that passage..Yet you cant come to terms with drinking grapejuice and have a convoluted explanation for not substituting the wine.Do you see my bewilderment at your hypocrisy. What about the Holy Ghost Doug? Is that bread or rice paper...? No apology for that distinction? I just shake my head at your interpretations..
False
Stop drinking water only and get some wine in that stomach, for your health! (1 Tim 5:23)
It starts out as wine but becomes the blood of Christ. Alcoholics have other problems.
Protestant conversations like this are mired in obscurantist kookiness! thank goodness for the Catholic.Church
Fruit of the vine....so your appreciation of judging pushing a weaker brother who refuses to drink alcohol. You say he is sinning. Hmmm! Oh and you are sinning in your ordinance of representing sprinkling as Baptism. Sorry Brother you are dead wrong must be sinning using the ordinance of rantidzo not baptisma.
No instruments in worship. Not even mentioned by Paul and zero congregational singing. Find it.
Sprinkling as baptism: yeah, that TRADITION OF MEN makes no sense scripturally. Agreed.
You don't believe in congregational singing tho?
I'm sure I'm misreading your comment!
Found the coc member
It's important to pay attention to details. Moses didn't enter the promised land because he didn't listen to directions carefully. I commend these discussions though I am convinced that both juice and wine qualify for "fruit of the vine"
Juice that is not fermented contains yeast, fermentation kills the yeast. Yeast is forbidden during Passover (Ex. 12:19).
.🍇 or🍷❓..unfermented grape juice only exists because of modern refrigeration and pasteurization...and mostly refrigeration...on a hot summer day I've seen our communion shot tray fuzz over with fungi...
the drink of the Ancient saints was wine or Barley Beer mixed with water ...and this remained true and normative until the Industrial Revolution (refrigeration) and first wave feminist Prohibition... our common evangelical teettotalling theologies and philosophies stem from this recent history...Prohibition was "the Woke" of the early Last century..
on the other hand...our pious Pilgrims to a man, woman, or child were huge fans of Port🍷and Porter 🍺....
...at the same time Grape juice is not a "Sin" either...as Jesus specified only "Fruit of the Vine"...not necessarily fermented wine itself...on other occasions it is merely referred to as "the Cup"...in fact our Lord did not even specify grape fruit ...so apparently the juice of any berry fermented or unfermented will do...the bread however was specifically "unfermented"or unleavened ( ...and this is often ignored)...
BTW. I come from a thoroughly theologically teetotaling tradition...which is all well and good...except its an unbiblical and legalistic lie...