Commander Cards We Disagree On | Which One of Us is Right?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- We disagree on these cards, but which one of us is right? Leave a comment to let us know!
Shop through CoolStuffInc and use code "NERDS" at checkout to save 5% on your order!
www.coolstuffi...
Buying Dragon Shield product in the United States? Use our affiliate link!
bit.ly/DragonS...
Buying Dragon Shield product in the EU? Use this affiliate link:
bit.ly/DragonS...
Follow us on Moxfield!
www.moxfield.c...
Come join our Discord community!
/ discord
Consider Supporting us via Patreon!
www.patreon.co...
Follow us on Twitter:
NitpickingNerds
OUR EQUIPMENT:
○Microphones: amzn.to/3wLlrcd
○Cloudlifter: amzn.to/3iZxZc3
○Beginner Microphone: amzn.to/3d0TghB
○Camera: amzn.to/2SQPuRa
○Lighting: amzn.to/3iZVQZe
Arcane denial is basically rewriting your opponents X mana spell to be pay X cast Divination while you pay 2 draw 1. Id love my opponent paying 8 mana draw 2
That's another cool way of looking at it!
Arcane denial is a top 5 counterspell, and if you're really in the shit, you can counter your own spell to sort of turn it into 2 mana, discard a card, draw 3 cards.
It is strong indeed, but in your scenario it is important that you have to pay mana for the countered spell as well as long as it's not 0 costed.
@@Akoustikusit workd well in cascate decks, in your hand is a counter, in cascade is three draws
10/10 banter! This has been the best video since the change in cast . Mia is super right tails end is slept on and needs more respect in a format revolving around legendary creatures.
This one was super fun!
Maybe relevant but in my meta commanders, and activated/triggered abilities strongly play into winning games
@@cc8879but there are counters that work against all spells, not just commanders, and if countering an activated or triggered ability stops a win, it will only be a temporary delay since your counter isn't repeatable like their ability.
Instead of banking on that rare circumstance of stopping the ability temporarily so someone can stop it permanently working out, I'd rather just play a real counter that works in more situations
yes it does.
While I do miss Cherries, I also LOVE Mia. I'm really impressed at how quickly she's won me over. She's got great takes and this episode was great at friendly discussion and banter. GO MIA!
She’s finding her rhythm. Little stiff at the start but liking her more
It’s Beezys girlfriend so the chemistry should be good lol. I heard a rumor beezy is writing 2 scripts and she’s reading off one
I agree with Mia on Tale’s End. Countering a triggered ability saved my butt so often from people comboing off that I put such an effect in all my blue decks.
I agree as well. I have a Kenrith Zirda deck that has used Nimble Obstructionist to stop a win attempt
How many games have you lost because the counterspell in your hand does not actually counter anything?
I run that, Stifle, and Trickbind to stop combos.
I really feel like stifle effects are way better stapled onto other more expensive versatile cards rather than a standalone effect. I feel better running a card that might cost more as a flex counter than running hyper specific counters. Kinda the same trap that mental misstep has in that it's really good when it's good but genuinely a dead card in 90% of games.
voidslime is a fun one for the same reason. 3 mana isn’t great for a counterspell, but it gives you the added ability to shut down those triggered and activated abilities. I have it as one of the few counterspells in a muldrotha deck of mine, and its saved my ass more than once.
I mostly agree with what mia said about the talismans, i always take talisman over signet now that both are cheap, but many times you need both to reach that 10+ ramp spells your deck needs, especially if the colors matter!
If Beezy likes 3 and a green to find your best land, why not just play the superior card in Pir’s Whim.
or Sylvan Scrying
Pir’s whim is also great!
Or just Crop rotation into a Strip Mine at instant speed
Or expo map! Who needs green?
Or Reap and Sow for the backup land destruction?
Tempt with Discovery reads "search your library for your 3 best lands into play, then sacrifice your 2 best lands in play to your opponents wasteland/strip mine that they tutored".
Yeah there is some risk to it 😅
"Random opponent summons a 20/20 Marit Lage Avatar creature token"
@@gordonramsayfanatic But is that even good enough in 2023 Commander?
@@crawdaddy2004 Free Flying 20/20 from the deck off of an opponent's card effect is pretty good, but that would be pretty telegraphed. You'd have to walk face first into that as the Tempt player.
@@crawdaddy2004 probably not, but one of the funnier ways to get punished i think
Another thing for arcane denial is that person will be less mad that you countered their spell because you gave them cards
I give my opponents the win so they won't be mad. That's what I keep telling them anyway
Yea it definitely feels like a way to mitigate the hate generated from countering them, and keeps you more even with the other 2 players not involved so I can see how its very good in your typical 4 man
We had a player who once felt the same way as Beezy with Tempt with Discovery. And that player was thrilled when every person at the table was tempted and got a land. He was admittedly less thrilled when each other player at the table used their new Strip Mine to blast his best three lands. That's pretty much how Tempt with Discovery goes in every playgroup I've been in.
Yea it does take some basic agreement for that to happen but I think the command zone leak that idea and it’s become pretty meta.
Beezy sold me on Arcane denial, “I’d rather 1 opposing player was up a card, than me and that player both down a card”. He’s making a lot of sense. It’s definitely not group huggy either, your cantrip is time walking them for 2 cards.
Agree with Beezy because Liliana literally drowns you in card draw
Agree with Mia on Twilight Prophet because it draws you a card every turn. Even if it's a land and you don't get the drain, it means you're not just drawing a land for turn because you're still drawing for turn afterwards. The flying body is a nice bonus too. Not like a top tier card but super solid in lifegain/vamp decks
I like how my agreement was divided almost 50/50 between the takes. It was a very interesting video and its nice to get to know the playstyle of the new co-host
Tale's End is a HUGE blowout for me when I play graveyard decks. People think they're gonna exile my whole deck with Bojuka Bog and I can't do anything about it??? No siree.
I think she's right about Tale's End. So much of this game is activated or triggered abilities. you can't counterspell a yuriko trigger or varagoth boast where they put Draco on top of their deck.
also, how do you like Mom more than Daughter? Giver does everything mom does plus survives chump blocking 1/1's
the pro gamer move with Arcane denial is countering your own spell, same thing with Offer You Can't Refuse.
Realm Seekers peaked my interest, but it was for the reason Beezy alluded to. I'm going to use it in Jarad, Golgari Lich, not my Lathril deck.
Mother of Runes can give itself protection, Giver of Runes can’t. So you can play Morher of Runes out whenever and it’s safe from targeted removal or a spare point of directed damage
If a counterspell doesn’t hit noncreature spells and I’m not playing a permission deck it’s a pass for me
Vandal blast is amazing. It could be that my pod plays a lot of artifact themed decks, but this has won me the game several times
Mia is growing on me. Lol We think a lot alike on cards. I LOVE realmseekers. I play it in most of my decks with green. Green makes the 6 mana not even a challenge, then i can grab my deserts in my hazezon deck and bloop em onto the field. Underrated card for sure!
Beezy be right about vandalblast though.. its just really good. Lol
The worst thing about Blood Baron of Vizkopa is they are not a Legendary; the card completely gives off a legendary vibe LOL ;p
you guys forget that Mom can be used OFFENSIVELY aswell! I CAN't BLOCK THE GIANT BIG THING IF ITS PROTECTED FROM MY COLORS!
Completely agree with Mia on the Signets vs Talismans issue
The signets are worse than the talismans, but I would still always play both.
Tale's end is great. First, it's an additional 2 mana counterspell. Second, in EDH, it's at least a commander counter. Third, Planeswalkers. Counter an ultimate for 2 mana. Many opponents don't see that coming.
Point Mia
1-0
Twilight Prophet is objectively awesome in the mid to late game. Dark Confidant that gains and drains, and has flying. Awesome card.
yeah, but for 10€ I would just like to scry 2, at least, before revealing stuff and gain life equal to the total amount of life drained. That's a 1€ cards just because of the rarity (spoiler: it has been reprinted)
@@marcoottina654 why is the monetary value of the card relevant to its playability? For 4 mana, it's a 2/4 with flying that draws cards and gains life. That's the relevant information.
I'm interested to see what Mia's ramp package in 2-3-color non-green decks looks like. I think it's difficult, especially in 2-color, to get a decent amount of ramp in the deck when skipping signets.
Tales End-Beezy. Stifle is twice as good as Tale's End, and most decks aren't running that.
Tempt with Discovery-Mia. 4 mana is far below rate to tutor a single land in green. Relying on your opponents to mess up easy decisions is not a good reason to run a card IMO.
Signets (not green)-Mia. Signets are sometimes necessary if you're looking to ramp outside of green, but they are extremely overplayed IMO. There are a significant number of decks in the world which would be greatly improved by replacing a signet or two with lands (Sam Black has a great video discussing this).
Liliana, Dreadhorde General-Beezy. This card is far more niche than Beezy gives it credit for if you want your deck to make best use of it (sacrifice). That being said, the floor is passable even if you aren't getting more than two cards off of it the turn it comes down. Not worth it's price tag IMO, but it's hard to deny how generically good this card is.
Mother/Giver of Runes-Beezy. These will often be actively bad draws outside of the first few turns as they need a full turn to untap before being useful (and die to a stiff breeze before then). I share Beezy's thinking that decks can only afford so many cards which don't advance their gameplan, and these are far enough down that list that they shouldn't see much play.
Arcane Denial-Beezy. Counterspell puts two of your opponents up a card each. Arcane Denial puts one of your opponents up a card. If that isn't convincing enough, Arcane Denial is easier to cast and will draw less ire from the player whose spell you countered. This one isn't close IMO.
Vandalblast-Mia. This is a perfectly reasonable card... Until you realize you're just giving games away to green players every time you overload it. The rate on the ceiling of this card is undeniable, but I value cards more highly which are good every game to cards which are only great every few games.
Blood Baron of Vizkopa-Beezy. This card is a 5 mana 4/4 Baneslayer with few redeeming qualities.
Twilight Prophet-Mia. Reasonable threat for lower power metas. Many decks will care about its creature types. Fun target to make copies of.
Aura of Silence-Beezy. Beezy correctly identifies this card as too good for low-mid power. Shuts off certain decks and requires an opponent to 2-for-1 themselves to get rid of it.
Realm Seekers-Beezy. Hard agree that this card's only home should be within a power-matters theme. Large stats don't really mean anything without an immediate plan to use them (Hello Greater Good).
Amber, the true mastermind of the show.
The third nerd is the mastermind and the star! -Mia
@@NitpickingNerds she has amazing stage presence haha. Have a great weekend Mia and Beezy, lots of love to you both from Australia!
My scores:
1. Tale's End - Mia (I agree that hitting activated/triggered abilities is pretty huge)
2. Tempt with Discovery - Beezy (if you have a great land in your deck, then 4 mana is totally worth it*)
3. Signets - Beezy (filtering colours is really handy)
4. Liliana, Dreadhorde General - tie (haven't seen or played with, so can't comment if it's worthy of top 30 black cards)
5. Mother/Giver of Runes - Mia (not for every deck, but protection for 1 mana is amazing for aggro and protecting your key creatures)
6. Arcane Denial - Beezy (Mia's in denial!)
7. Vandalblast - Beezy (I get Mia's point, but it's still fantastic)
8a. Blood Baron of Vizkopa - Beezy (5 mana is too much for this, even in Edgar Markov)
8b. Twilight Prophet - Mia (4 mana Phyrexian Arena is bad, but recurrable/synergistic creature and life drain good)
9. Aura of Silence - Beezy (card's insanely good)
10. Realm Seekers - Beezy (far too much mana!)
Overall scores:
Beezy - 7
Mia - 3
*If your playgroup runs Strip Mines, only works in a deck that can play lands from the graveyard.
I also prefer talismans over signet, but it has less to do with tempo and more to do with "best case" scenarios. Turn 1 sol ring, signet, stop is worse than turn 1 sol ring, talisman, esper sentinel/dork, so if I have to CHOOSE between the two, I will always pick the signet.
However, that said, in my two colors decks I just always run both because I want to hit that critical mass of ramp.
And having said THAT.... I ALSO run green talismans. I'll run nature's lore and three visits before running a talisman, but I'll run ALL of the green talismans before running skyshroud claim, pir's whim or tempt, because they're easier to weave into a turn and come down earlier.
It all depends. Like Tales End is decent if you are playing six counter spells not if you play three. Talismans are definitely better than signets, but signets are not bad.
9:12 for Moxfield
With Mia on Mother/Giver for sure - it's not making every deck but protection on a body is really good in some decks. I also like Tale's End, but it never seems to make the cut. I also agree Liliana is mildly overrated even if it's still really good. And Tempt with Discovery has been a dud every time I've played it.
With Beezy on most of the others.
Mia is absolutely correct on the signets. They usually suck. I run them sometimes in two colour decks, if they're not green and I REALLY need ramp. I NEVER run them in three colour+, there's no need with all those talismans.
I love arcane denial though. If everyone starts at 7 cards, using a counterspell leaves you at 6, one opponent at 6 and two opponents at 7. Cumulatively your opponents are up 14 cards, but two opponents have a card more than you (average advantage is 2/3). After arcane trigger, you are at 7, one opponent is at 8 and two are at 7. Cumulatively your opponents have 15 more cards, but one opponent has one more card than you (average advantage is 1/3). Really depends whether you view yourself as the archenemy or part of a dynamic group of fluctuating alliances.
100% agree on azorius signet. You have so much one mana interaction and it's like it's all timing you have three people you have to try to impede and it's like I don't want to be forced to take a worse timing interaction because I played a signet. I want to keep up mana.
Aura of Silence is so dope. It is very strange-feeling, to pay 3 mana to shut down an opponent almost entirely. but it happens frequently
The Arcane Denial math checks out, b/c playing it over counterspell means ONE opponent is up a card on you (who also happened to just get something good countered), versus TWO opponents going up a card on you. I feel like vandalblast is rarely hitting 4+ things and in mono red or R/X decks i'd rather have shatering spree, in 3+ color probably rather have something more versatile/instant speed or even By Force.
I’d vote yes for tales end since I haven’t seen too many options for dealing with triggered abilities and they can get out of control
Stifle is the big one
Re: Tempt With Discovery, absolutely hinges on the group. In my usual pod, Tempt With Discovery reads as follows:
As this spell is cast, its controller may break into dance and yell "TEMPT WITH DISCOOOOO", if they do, each opponent will 100% always search for a mana producing land, and its controller 100% always searches for 4 lands.
I highly, highly recommend leaning into the obnoxious club DJ persona if youre going to play group huggy cards/strats
Oh wow, I'm writing that down
1. Tale's End is fire.
2.Tempt with Discovery is run in every landfall deck I make, so I love it.
3. I run signets in every 2/3 color decks that I make.
4. Liliana Dreadhorde General is a must in any aristocrat deck that has black in it.
5. Giver is meh. I get the appeal but not for me.
6. As much as I hate giving out things to my opponents, Arcane Denial is really good. Especially in Nekusar.
7. Vandal is an upcoming banger, imo, with the increase of Treasure and Food (Thanks to LotR), it's really useful to get rid of all those resources.
8. Blood Baron of Vizkopa is not it for me.
9. Aura of Silence is a no-go for me. 3 mana to make Artifacts and enchantments cost and then sac it to destroy an artifact/enchantment? Nah. There are better cards out there.
10. Realm Seeker's sucks. 6 mana huge elf without trample? No thank you. Then pay 3 mana for any land you want? Not bad but instant removal is gonna kill it before you can afford to get rid of all the mana to search for land. If it had like Vigilance and/or Trample I'd be down for it.
I loved the dynamics a lot in this one and the banter! Mia is growing on me for sure - I think hearing the polarized opinions and the logic behind each point is really interesting.
"I don't want them to have all those treasures" "Sounds like you need a way to sweep them up all at once" This message was brought to you by Vandalblast!
It’s also I. My vamps deck- not only is it a card with lifelink AND protection, but it’s as good as a win condition. Provided the prereqs are met
CALLING IT NOW: the Moxfield ad IS NOT @ 22:25. No cheating. I’m just that damn good
Winners
Tale’s end: Mia
Tempt with discovery: Mia
Signets: Mia
Liliana: Beezy
Giver/mother of runes: Mia
Arcane Denial: Beezy
Vandal Blast: Beezy
Blood Baron: Beezy
Twilight Prophet: Beezy
Aura of Silence: Beezy
Realm Seekers: Mia
Close one, love the debate and the banter
I agree with Mia that talismans are firmly better than signets, but I’m not as down on them as she is. In a 2-color non-green deck, the signet goes in for sure. In 3-color, I’m likely to run 1 or 2. Breezy liking them more because all of his mana bases are built around Field of the Dead is incredibly on brand.
Mother of Runes has a place in a deck that’s already drawing single target removal, occasionally getting an attack through is a fun bonus. I run it in a few decks, Giver currently in none.
Still team Beezy on Arcane Denial, I started using it on his advice and have been very happy. 1U for a full counter is nice.
I only run Vandalblast in my Prosper deck where the variable cost is helpful, casting the 1 drop version from exile and making a treasure is cool. Most of my other red decks have green or white, and I feel like I have much more versatile solutions to artifacts in those colors so I don’t think much of it.
I’ve never seen Blood Baron of Vizkopa before, I could almost see it working with the protection in a grindier game. My Liesa deck used to run Baneslayer Angel and just replaced it with the similar Backup angel from MoM, the Blood Baron would hit less hard but be a little more durable in that spot.
I don’t play Aura of Silence for the “too oppressive” reason Beezy describes. I do think Mia’s right that it’s a little overblown, but it’s still a factor when I think of how I’ll be received at the table. Many artifact and enchantment decks wanna cast multiple spells a turn, and this will make it rough. Been meaning to try it out.
I don’t run Body of Research, so it’s hard to imagine running Realm Seekers. It would have its slots though, don’t think I could resist running it in Shalai and Halar.
Great video, and a nice chance to see how Mia thinks about cards and what that brings to the channel. Going as strong as ever!
1. Totally agree with Beezy here, I could only see this card in budget, and even then I have to assume we have better options.
2. I think I'm a bit in the middle here, leaning towards Mia. If everyone is running strip mine (which they should be since lands need way more hate these days), tempt actually reads "get your fourth worst land and entomb your 3 best". Still good with crucible effects? Absolutely, but not as generically good. In conditions where people aren't throwing, give me nature's lore every time.
3. I'm like 70% with beezy here, the thing I have noticed, however, is that I don't usually end up with signets in 2 color. There's just a lot of solid 2 mana rocks with utility, and maybe some incidental rocks with synergy, that they don't always make it. That being said, in 3 color where the colors matter more I do run them. In 2 color give me mind stone instead almost every time.
4. I think I'm mostly with Mia here. Dreadhorde general is definitely amazing, it's probably the best monocolor walker in the format, but top 30 black cards? There's way too many tutors, good removal, and just generally powerfully black cards for that. I haven't made a list but that just sounds like a lot.
5. I'm pretty solidly with Beezy here, mother effects just don't seem like they have a place in most decks. I guess they're better than like rebuff the wicked or whatever, but in Kaalia? Play swiftfoot and lightning greaves to get protection, and then focus on not diluting your pool of big creatures.
6. With Beezy here, math checks out. Even if it didn't, 2 mana counterspells with no conditions are great.
7. Very much with Beezy here, vandalblast is very good and he should absolutely play it more? I honestly use it as 1 mana removal like half the time, 1 mana destroy target artifact is a great spell, perfect for popping early sol rings or getting big stuff out of the way. The overload is great for when people had rock-heavy games or just punishing the artifact player. You both should run it more.
8a and 8b. Beezy gets both of these I think, but prophet less so. That 5 drop seems utterly unplayable, I wouldn't run a 5 mana 10/10 with all those keywords if it wasn't conditional, let alone jumping through all those hoops. Your 5 drop slot has like 20 better options easily. As for prophet, it just seems like an average card you'd cut for power. Life is nice, cards are nice, you got better options.
9. I feel like I'm with Beezy here, aura of silence is a nice tax effect, and it can make enchantress and artifact decks fold and just mess with game plans in unpredictable ways. It's mediocre as removal, but the whole packages ranges from ok to back breaking.
10. Yeah 100% with Beezy here, this deck seems truly heinous. I wouldn't even run lord of extinction in most decks, and this is more mana for probably a smaller creature. Even if it was a 20/20 every time, a 6 mana 20/20 is unusable, and that activated ability isn't doing much either. Especially in an elf deck this is just horrible, sure it says "elf" but how on earth does it advance your game plan? If you want that deck to be more powerful, you'll cut it every time.
Overall it seems like I agreed with Beezy more, but I do want Mia to know that I think she's great! Way to hold your own, you've got good banter!
ngl 20min in when beezy said "get that value out of my face" i cracked tf up, love this series, you two are the best 🤣🤣🤣
Tempt with Discovery goes hard IF at least one other person gets tempted. However running this in my Windgrace Lands deck, people learn pretty quickly not to be tempted. So I spent 4 mana for 1 land
A straight upgrade I found was Realms Uncharted, because with my Windgrace deck, it straight up doesn’t matter what they toss in the graveyard and what goes in my hand, because I’m getting all 4 lands regardless
Tale's End is definitely never my first go to, but its a good spell for your back pocket in any blue deck because so many of the best infinite combos in the format require some activated or triggered ability along the way, and if you take that out, you can probably break the loop and buy yourself a turn.
The more I watch these the more I see the chemistry. I'm down for the future. Completely agree with Beezy on arcane denial, though!
For Tempt, it all depends on what the player to your left does, if he gets a land, the other 2 usually will as well, if he doesn't then it could be just 4 mana for your best land. Either way, I run this in my gates deck and 9 out of 10, I get 4 lands. Especially if I get Maze end first since they see it before they choose and they say "Well, I need to the ramp to kill him before he wins" lol
Twilight Prophet is 4 mana for a self Howling Mine at worst and a free drain 60% of the time or more.
Right away, the call on tale's end, is basically, tell me you ve never played against etali, without telling me you ve never played against etali
I have had incredible success with vandalblast and arcane denial. Watching someone tap out for an X drop spell and then dropping arcane denial...or someone start making a bunch of artifacts then vandalblasting...maybe it's just my playgroup and my shop I go to though. Every one of my goblin decks run vandalblast and almost every deck with blue runs a denial.
Signets versus talisman's are basically equal it really depends on your mana base which one actually lets you spend more of your mana and sooner.
It just depends on how how often your are gonna want to play a one drop on turn 2 after ramping. A quick assessment in that regard will make it easy to decide which one to play. Though in non-CEDH two colour decks (without green) your options for turn two ramp are somewhat limited so I’d still think running a signer would be worth it
Tempt With Discovery is highly group dependent. It's a free invitation to get your best land blown up by a Strip Mine or Wasteland, and possibly exiled.
So, about each take:
- I don't like Tale's End as a counterspell. It definitely feels more like a weird conditional removal at 2 mana, which isn't ideal, but it can be good in certain metas. Not mine. Beezy 1 - Mia 0.
- Tempt with discovery is too overcosted for the effect. If you want the "search for your best land", there are more efficient ways to do so, doesn't cut it for me. Beezy 1 - Mia 1.
- What is this, cEDH? Beezy 2 - Mia 1.
- I've played with Liliana and 6 mana definitely feels like too high of a cost for such a conditional effect. Beezy 2 - Mia 2.
- Not the biggest fan of mom unless there are additional synergies on the deck, but the effect is pretty good and it feels like such an iconic card. Beezy 2 - Mia 3.
- A hard counterspell is a hard counterspell. As long as it's stopping the important stuff with no weird stipulations, it's a pretty good card. The fact that it only requires 1 blue pip makes it surprisingly flexible aswell in multicolor. Beezy 3 - Mia 3.
- Not too fond of this one. I never play it if my deck contains white or green, but if we are talking about Grixis and its "subsets", it's one of the best options for artifact removal. Still, I don't run it unless I'm in colors starving for this kind of effect, so I'm with Mia. Beezy 3 - Mia 4.
- Huh. To be honest the card doesn't look that bad on paper, but in the end it's just a beatstick. A conditional beatstick. Beezy 4 - Mia 4.
- I agree that this card sees little play because of how miserable it is. Decks that are primarily green won't mind the effect, but almost every deck that doesn't contain green will get hit by this card. Beezy 5 - Mia 4.
- Another beatstick, but it's on good colors for synergy. Definitely needs other cards to shine, so I guess I have the same problem with it as with Liliana because of the high cost. Beezy 6 - Mia 4.
I think a better version of Tempt with Discovery is Pir's Whim. Beezy even said that 4 mana to get your best land is playable. Pir's Whim is that, but you also get to 3 for 1 your opponents as a bonus
1. Tale's End: I'm with Beezy. Two mana for a conditional counter is too much for me. Stifle does this cheaper and I don't think this is good.
2. Tempt with Discovery: Mia here. She's right that people generally won't take the offer once they see what you're up to and 4-mana even for Field of the Dead is too much when you have Crop Rotation, Sylvan Scrying, and Expedition Map all in color already. I think she does underrate that this gets any land in her "I expect 2 lands" (it's 5+ mana to get any two lands, ala Hour of Promise or Titania's Command) but I think there's just a saturation of cheaper options and you don't need 4+ of these effects in most decks.
3. Signets: Beezy here. How many one-drops does Mia run that she needs to have her rocks tap for mana on turn 2?!?
4. Liliana: With Mia here. I love Lily but I don't have it top 30 in black because there's a lot of decks I don't want to run her in. Top 30 makes her staple level and I don't think she's there.
5. Mother/Giver of Runes: With Mia here again. I think these are really quite good if you have special creatures you really need to protect or survive combat turn after turn. I think Mia really nails it when she says "these don't go in every deck" and her highlighting of Kaalia is exactly where these effects shine.
6. Arcane Denial: Beezy likes this card too much so I'm siding with Mia here. Like her, I don't hate it and I agree with her that the math doesn't work out in your favor. It's not better than Counterspell. Being a single blue pip is nice but now there's Swan Song, An Offer You Can't Refuse, and other 1-mana counters that hit the big scary things that make Arcane Denial a bit obsolete.
7. Vandalblast: Hate it, 100% with Mia here. It's a mana denial card, straight up. Not a fun card when you set one or two players back to 2-3 mana because they aren't in green and got an unlucky draw. There's just a lot better things you can do that are also more fun if you want to hose things like Treasures.
8. Blood Baron: Beezy has this one. This feels win more and it's a bit of a trap card. I don't see a lot of reasons to play it either. I'm also with him on Twilight Prophet. It's just meh.
9. Aura of Silence: I agree with Beezy that this card is not fun and it's a total blowout against certain decks. It's a hate card and I dislike hate cards--it's just like jamming Rest in Peace in your deck "for fun" or rolling Plague Engineer in every deck "just because."
10. Realm Seekers: I agree with Beezy that this card just doesn't have a great place. I'm not a fan of big dumb attackers without evasion or trample either.
So I have my score as 5-5 for each of the hosts.
I get not liking signets for green, but I am an Izzet player. I am playing the colors that are essentially allergic to the concept of excess mana and have almost no meaningful form of ramp. You better damn well believe I’m putting one of the most cost effective and continuous sources of mana into my deck. Plus, as someone who makes things thinking of lore first and epic gamebreaking combos dead last, I feel like any guild themed deck is incomplete without at least one signet card.
I have one in my vamp, and if you are one mana short of being able to play a card, and you haven’t tapped your signet yet, it gives you that last mana you needed to play a card
1. Curious to hear what mia thinks about Wash Away, but i think Tale’s End is quite good outside of high budget
2. Basically all dependent on if ur deck cares about 4 mana get ur best land lol
3. Mia’s insane (talismans are better tho)
4. Liliana is a great planeswalker but nottt the top 20 best black cards in commander
5. i feel like both moms are bad ._.
6. Arcane Denial is a great counterspell
7. Vandalblast is very good but i see where mia is coming from
8. Both cards aren’t great, but Twilight Prophet is wayyy better
9. Really annoying
10. This is not great ;-;
Vandalblast is an express ticket to Value Town in non-CEDH. You're getting a 3 for one 95% of the time as the floor, and the ceiling is blowing out one or more opponents. So. Gross.
My opinions:
1 (tale’s end): Beezy
2 (tempt): Mia
3 (signets): Beezy
4 (Lilly): Beezy
5 (Mother of runes): close but Mia
6 (arcane denial): close again but Beezy
7 (vandalblast): Beezy
8 (blood baron): Mia, doesn’t seem amazing but she’s also not claiming it’s the best thing ever, twilight profit im definitely with mia
9 (aura of silence): Beezy
10 (realm seekers): Mia, so long as you have enough ways to give it trample
6-4 Beezy, very close!
I 100% agree that Talismans are better than Signets, I don’t agree that Signets shouldn’t be played though and should be avoided if possible. I will always play both if possible.
I cut signets too, the one mana requirement was too much. Talismans, arcane signet, and fellwar stone are my autoinclude mana rocks.
The Lillian’s Dread horde would go great with Elenda the dusk rose for draw power and Elendas buffing at the same time.
1. Beezy - tales end bad
2. Beezy - tempt is good
3. Mia - talismans over signets
4. Mia - lili is good but not top 50
5. Mia - mother is good
6. Beezy - didthemaths
7. Mia - vandal blast fell off
8.a. Mia - looks fun, seems good
8.b. Mia - flying good
9. Mia - id play grasp of fate first
10. Beezy - cube card
Mia 7 - 4 Beezy
Wow, I thought I usually agreed with Beezy over Cherries but it looks like I might have a new favorite.
Tale's end: I think Mia is right, a lot of the time there might be a trigger you really don't want to go off but you can't counter the creature because the opponent made it unconterable or it's just uncounterable normally
Tempt with Discovery: I agree with Mia again, like a 4 mana spell to get 1 Land at minimum isn't great, because most play group will not take that offer unless they're really hurting for land but because it's not guaranteed to get you more then 1 land it's not that great
the Signets: I think the Signets can be good for Mana fixing or turning 1 colorless mana into 2 different colored mana that you can use like from Reliquary tower so I agree with Beezy
Liliana Dread hoard General: I think Liliana is pretty good, 6 mana is steep but it can get you a Zombie, it can also force you to draw 2 cards as well as force opponents to Sac creatures and then her ult is basically a board wipe but for your opponents, so I think she's solid, point Beezy
Mother of Runes: I think Mother of Runes is fantastic, she's a great way to give instant speed Protection to your commander from damage or targeting, I agree with Mia
Arcane Denial: I would rather have other counterspells like yes it does replace itself but your also giving your opponent 2 cards which could give them a stronger turn next time. so another Agree with Mia
Vandalblast: Okay so this card is one of the premier artifact board wipes in the format, it especially if your playing against decks that rely heavily on Artifacts, so I do agree with Beezy on this one
Blood Barron: I agree with Beezy, I feel like it's scope is too narrow to be playable
8b: Twilight Prophet: I have to disagree with Beezy and I think it's a solid card and it's just extra card advantage at the end of the day so who cares if the life drain is small your getting more cards per turn!
Aura of Silence: I agree with Beezy here, it's a very good card
Realm Seekers: I gotta agree with Mia, it's a green card so it's going to come down early and it also helps you ramp very solid
so there you have it, Mia was right on the most cards in my humble opinion but Beezy's weren't bad
Mia Points: 6
Beezy points: 5
I have Realm Seekers in my Masumaro deck - there, a land in hand has cards-in-hand value, and it's still a decent size even if everyone else has only a card or two.
Arcane Denial definitely trumps Tale’s End in my opinion. I’m with Beezy, I want to guarantee the spell is gone not IF it meets the criteria. So far Beezy is solid. Will update after I finish!
Aura of Silence is god tier. It routinely three for ones because of how far it pushes back otherwise playable cards. Do you want to pay four mana for your Arcane Signet? That feels awful. About to play your Vedalken Orrery on curve? Nope, too bad. Trying to combo with Phyrexian Altar? Not this turn friend, you're out of mana. On top of stopping powerful cards or hosing entire decks it then can kill the most annoying thing that someone payed too much mana for because they really needed it out there. It does SO much work and people really should be looking at it more.
Singets have upsides too, I like them in my pox muldrotha, because they are permanents and they get not affected by the many editct effects
Honestly agreed with Beezy on 100 percent of the cards brought up in this video. All the cards he disagreed on were all cards i wouldnt really ever consider either.
Arcane denial > counterspell even in mono blue 😊😊
For some of these cards are would say it depends on what colors you’re deck is, what you’re deck does and what you’re budget is. I can agree that Talisman are better than Signets, but like you guys said unless you’re playing green or are 4/5 colors or just don’t have a budget (so you would just play Mana Crypt, Moxes and other expensive rocks) I would say you should usually run all the Talisman and Signets you can. For Arcane Denial I would say if you’re deck is heavy blue and already have a lot of cars draw and counter spells in your deck it’s not great, but if you are lighter on blue, only playing 1 or 2 counter spells and don’t have a bunch of card draw it is great.
Tempt with Discovery...
This card is great in a few of my decks. I'm more in agreement with Beezy. Does not matter the playgroup, for me it matters with the deck. Omnath, Magnus Kane, and other 3+ color decks with green. But not with my bi/mono color decks.
Tie 1-1
Tales End = B
Tempt with Discovery = M
Signets = Def B
Liliana General = Top50 soo point M
Rune Girls = point M they force removal use
Arcane Denial = Def M
Vandalblast = Def B
Blood Baron = Def B, its fun but not good
Twilight Prophet = point M, good in lifegain/drain decks
Aura of Silence = Def B, I have it on a pillow/tax deck
Realm Seekers = Def B, fun but not good....
Mia 4 points
Beezy 6 points ... Winner!!!
Still close and good arguments on both sides 👍🏻
Ok so stopping abilites like that is really good. And the upside of countering a legendary spell is good too. Remember commander, any Walker is legendary too.
Tempt with discovery can be hit or miss. I usually refused to be tempted unless everyone else has taken the deal. Usually one person saying yes leads to others saying yes. Even getting 2 lands for 4 mana is the average. And those are usually basic lands or locked to a land type.
Signers are ok cards. They help non green decks more. It's hit or miss here
As someone with a 5 color walker deck it's a decent cards. It's card draw. Makes tokens to protect itself. The negative can fuel the card draw. You don't usually look at ults but this one is ok. It can win you the game but I haven't won the game with it I usually win with something else from the cards I draw off of it.
Mother of Runes is amazing. Even in 8 and a half tales a card with built in protection this card has saved my friend's commander because it's free.
Giving your opponent resources is bad... unless you are trying to make friends.
Vandalblast is good because if an opponent switches the target they still can't target your stuff unless they get their own copy. If there are more then 5 Artifacts on board it's value. Sure one less mana destroys all artifacts bit sometimes you want to keep your own artifacts. It also gets past artifacts with shroud or hexproof.
Blood baron has decent protections but even in a life gain deck it's an ok card. Twilight prophet is much better. It's great in decks that can manipulate the top of your desk.
As an artifacts player I hate seeing aura of silence. Making sol ring cost 3 means I think twice of playing it. It hurts my soul.
Green ramps and you play it early. It gets your best land for 3. Usually 3 mana gers basic lands or lands tied to land types. It's similar to above but it's a a decent creature that will make players think twice about attacking. Don't get me started when you can recure the card.
At the end of the day you aren't likely to change your mind easily and my post won't likely do it. Play the cards you enjoy. Everyone is different with different play styles.
Arcane Denial is fire I will straight run that shit over counterspell
Can we get Beezy a "field of the dead" shirt?
Agree with the pro argument for all cards except for Giver, Blood Baron, and 1/2 Realmseekers. Aura of Silence can be OPPRESSIVE. Tales end is very underated and I'm always happy to have it in hand. Stopping triggers is more versatile than you think.
I agree with Mia’s argument about talismans being infinately better than signets but I still think signets are good
For signets I don't think the extra 1 mana on turn two matters to much since it will provided mana the turn it comes down if it's any later, but the main thing I would advise against is having more than a few of both signets and bounce lands in the same deck because it can become super finicky. That being said, something like mana reflection can make it worth it.
Talismans are better than signets but 2-mana rocks that make colors and come into play untapped (turn 2 not withstanding), are pretty good. Signets could be outclassed one day soon though, if they print like one more for all the colors then it's probably the worst of the 2-mana untapped rocks.
tempt with discovery is bad and 3G is a bad rate, beezy should feel bad.
I probably wouldn't put tales end into most of my decks but it seems playable.
mom and giver are quite good, but it's fair enough to not like them in most decks, but decks with an essential commander in W or decks with other lightning rod type creatures (hateful guys, etc) want them at least sometimes.
I would play tales end before arcane denial and i don't even like tales end too much, i'd only put denial into like a deck with a million counterspells.
Vandalblast is fine, i end up playing it's 1 mana mode more often when i play (just a result of who i play against), but it being a sorcery is on the stinky side.
Bloodbaron is not a card i would play, but twilight prophet i'd probably play in a vampirey deck.
Aura of Silence is good.
Realmseekers doesn't seem too good.
Mia - 6
Beezy - 4
I think. Maybe i'll feel different later.
I like that Mia is willing to actually call out Beezy on his bullshit "oh yeah twilight prophet just dies to fleshbag hurdur" finally someone actually points out that it's likely not your only creature, ffss. Good on you Mia! Have yet to fully form my opinion but I like this less echo-chamberie nitpicking nerds.
Also props to you for fighting back on arcane denial!
Tale's End I'll give to Mia, it is surprisingly effective
Tempt with discovery - Mia
Signets - Beezy. I think you're trolling if you don't run a signet in a 2 color non-green deck
Liliana - Definitely Beezy. This card is insanely strong
Mother of Runes - Mia. If your deck needs your commander out to function most optimally, and other people know that, it's so good to have a mother of runes on deck as guaranteed protection.
Arcane Denial - Mia. I hate letting the person I just countered draw 2 cards. That gives them 2 more things to clap back at me with
Vandalblast - Beezy
Aura of Silence - Beezy
Twilight Prophet - Mia
Tales End: Mia wins
Temp with Discovery: Mia wins
Signets: Mia wins
Liliana, Dreadhorde General: Beezy wins
Mother of Runes: Mia wins
Arcane Denial: Beezy wins
VandalBlast: Beezy wins
Blood Baron: Mia wins only because the card can be great in vampire tribal (Edgar), otherwise its hot garbage.
Twilight Prophet: Beezy wins
Aura of Silence: Beezy wins
Realm Seekers: Mia wins
Signets...[except Arcane of course]
Ehhh, I guess I'm supposed to like them, but I don't. In the long run, it's an arcane signet that you need a mana to activate to get a refund and extra mana. Maybe I run them in 5 color decks if they have a higher mana curve and more of a necessity to ramp and color fix.
You both get half credit.
Tie 1.5-1.5
Agree with Mia, i am not a fan of signets. I would much rather have something that comes into play and taps for mana
Beezy playing semantics with calling aura of silence a "tax" not a "stax" card makes me want to Roblox myself.
Kinda miss the Unstable land cycle hanging on your wall in the background (from old vids).
I do like Tale’s End for 1v1 Commander
on the topic of lightning rods i've been playing a lot more stuff at flash speed that generally require answers because they give me so much advantage. i've been using teferi mage of zhalfir since i pulled a couple from TSR and i pulled a dictate of karametra from a korean box and had no idea what it was for the longest but in the last few months i put them and stuff like thryx sudden storm in all my decks because they force someone to use a force of will on it just for the opportunity to mana drain me later or risk letting me untap with double mana. it's never going to win me the game so i'd rather it get countered and now you need another answer for the real bomb.
Tale's End - She's right. Legends are one big target in EDH, but triggered abilities are often massive Wincons. You can stop a Gary or turn a Craterhoof into an overcosted beater instead of dying to it.
Tempt with Discovery - This card gets worse the better the people you are playing against are, which is not a good look for a card imo. She's right again.
Signets - She missed on this one. You can't overstate the power to ramp in non-green decks and signets are a premium option (outside very high budget decks).
Liliana, Dreadhoard General - She's wrong again. Six mana for a single card that does every part of a sacrifice combo and gives you bonus cards for doing your thing is hard to beat. It's also a permanent type that is somewhat harder to remove than a creature and can survive a board wipe and even draw you cards.
Mother of Runes - I'm not a huge fan. Every deck does want Lightning Greaves, though. Mom just dies to a board wipe too easily, and I see those more than targeted removal.
Arcane Denial - Not better than Counterspell, depending on the deck. If you are heavy enough Blue, the counterspell is better. That said, Arcane denial is still very very good and has the added flexibility of being a cheap draw 3 if you end up with a spell on the stack you don't need. Cast removal, they sacrifice the target in response, AD your own removal and draw three cards. It's not perfect but it's an option. He's right on this one.
Vandalblast - The card is getting worse, but it's still near the top of the best artifact removal spells. He's right.
Blood Baron of Vizkopa - I played it in standard. It's much worse in EDH. In the right deck, with some tribal bonuses, I still probably wouldn't play it. Twilight Profit is great in the tribal or even just a lifegain deck. Dies to removal is a weak argument, especially when you poo-pooed Blood Baron who dies to nothing. He's mostly right, but not as right as he thinks he is.
Aura of Silence - The card is great, especially if your deck cares about Enchantments at all. Dockside isn't an artifact threat, so it doesn't really fit in this discussion. If you aren't heavy enough in White, it's a solid choice. He's right
Realm Seekers - Elves have the mana, but this is a landfall tool, and there are better choices. He's right on this one too.
That is strong against all artifact oriented decks. Like Urza decks, or the Myr tribal I have that is primarily argifacts
Vandelblast*
Was on board with mia until the vandalblast divide. Card can be game wrapping. Tho I do love mother and giver of runes!
I'm with Beezy on Spells and Mia on Creatures. Since it was more spells on the list Beezy wins?
Tales End is so situational plus it’ll serve you better just to remove the thing you’re trying to prevent from triggering. Point Beezy
Tempt is bad. 4 mana for a ramp spell is way too much when you could be making more impactful plays. Point Mia
Signets are meh. It’s color fixing but it’s very awkward while doing it but Talismans are way better. Point Mia
Dreadhorde General slaps! Such a strong value engine and access to black rituals make it way more efficient to cast than in other colors. Point Beezy.
Mother and Giver are very strong (same with Skrelv too). Super cheap protection and hard to interact with. Point Mia
Arcane Denial is bad. Counterspell is way better. Point Mia
Vandalblast really gets hosed by sorcery speed. Point Mia
Blood Baron is unplayable. Too high cost and not as impactful to the cost. Point Beezy
Aura of Silence is a great stax piece! It’s targeted removal at instant speed and acts as a strong stax piece. Point Beezy
And the winner for most based Nitpicking Nerd goes to: Mia!
Beezy sorry but tempt with discovery... Every time I play it every other player chooses strip mine and strip mines the three best land from my deck. The only deck i play it in is thalia and gitrog
Blood Baron is questionable unless you build Edgar around life gain, and the stronger Edgar builds run on token spam/sac. Saying Twilight Prophet is bad is pure lunacy
People really sleep on stifle effects, there’s been so many times I’ve had a grip full of counterspells but it’s been useless because what I really needed at the moment is a stifle effect
Temp gets serra sanctum untapped. It's a no brainer. Vandal Blast is best played turn 1 to kill a sol ring. Do not think twice about it. Don't hold it for turn 5. If you draw it later fine.
I was excited about Tale’s End when it came out, but I’ve found it to be one of the worst counterspells. It’s extremely situational, and I don’t want to stop something’s ability as I’d rather have that thing never hit the battlefield. There are so many better ones it just doesn’t see play from me.