glad you are speaking about this John. It is THE problem of my generation that grew up in the church. So much unnecessary pain and shame and collateral damage.
as a former member of the LDS Church, I wish I knew then what I know now.....My mission would have been filled with "joy"...instead of constant frustration and shame......Thank You John for tackling this issue.
My background is not Mormonism but grew up in a very strict Pentecostal church. There are so many similarities not only the shame cycle concerning this subject but in many other prohibitions. Prohibitions that should be a personal preference as in my childhood i.e.no dancing, no going to movies, no playing cards, no wearing of makeup for women or jewelry, clothing restrictions etc. I imagine that all these different things can be taken to an unhealthy state, just like over eating, but the shame imposed is the most damaging. I hope that sometime you could air an interview with a person that has transitioned out of that type of environment. The transition for me was leaving the Pentecostal environment not the Christian faith but find that I still fight resentment towards those that perpetuated the shame and quite frankly creating several tiers that made the leadership act superior to the "sinful" parishioners. It surprised me how much the B.I.T.E. model applied to my childhood experiences in that denomination.
Thank you for your insight on this. I appreciate your willingness to share. It's refreshing to read something so well articulated, respectful, and thought provoking! This type of engagement brings a smile to my face and has such an impact for good in the world!
This why I left the church all toghether.For me it's a mental/emotional prison where you true 'self' your personality is diminished, constantly needs reprimands, where I never was sufficient for Gods blessings and on top the whole church system is 'man' made.I am so free to believe or not believe.For example; I do not believe God anwsering prayers.I still wait on tons of decent and humble prayer requests since 40 years.I also did not find or feel great 'peace' being a christian.But I have that 'peace' feeling since I went to Saudi Arabia and felt such a peace.Yes ,islam is also a religion of peace as you also find in other faith..But christianity is for me so 'forced' upon us.
I agree with John. We need to look at why someone is looking at it. We also need to look at methods to make people want to watch it less. The shaming part will create more guilt and shame and a vicious cycle.
Thanks for the open, honest and frank discussion, Kyle ... very brave of you and you speak so well. It makes me upset and angry that you had to go through all that rubbish. Cheers to both you and Neesha and all the best for the rest of your life journey.
This cycle of guilt and shame the repent. Then repeat cycle. Sounds like the shame addiction cycle John Bradshaw identifies in his books on addictions.
Even news sites in Russia covered a story of a Provo girl canceling her wedding because her fiance watched one pornographic video. She even told the guests what was the reason of the cancelation. The guy simply had no idea what to do in bed and decided to watch a "tutorial" video!
If you masturbate and/or watch porn you're not a bad person or a sinner unworthy of the Holy Ghost or priesthood power, etc. If you watch porn excessively you're not a bad person just as if binge eating doesn't make someone a bad person. However, binge eating isn't healthy. Excessive masturbation/ porn use/ sexual activity isn't healthy either. Sex/porn addiction is real addiction just like food addiction or any other addiction. Sex/porn addiction is arguably the hardest to overcome and in my opinion hurts the most people (in many cases) because it often leads to cheating, infidelity, sexual abuse, sexual assault, human trafficking, pedophilia, etc. A great resource to understand the harms of pornography is Fight The New Drug. "Fight the New Drug is a non-religious and non-legislative organization that exists to provide individuals the opportunity to make an informed decision regarding pornography by raising awareness on its harmful effects using only science, facts, and personal accounts."
Why I made my most irresponsible choices in life. I felt guilt, shame, emberasment, worthless, etc, leads to depression, self doubt, listening to bad advice from older Mormons, irrational thought. Laying the path for irrational decision making. And I was only active fir 6 years and will pay the price for the rest of my life. Chronic depression began as I became active. I got off easy. Some have taken their lives.
You don't have to feel any longer that way.You are free to be yourself as long as you do not harm others.You have every right on happiness.Don't block yourself or limit yourself.Christianity is very harmful to our personality and mental health.Be free and enjoy it !!Love from Belgium.
@@michelinedemeulemeester9087 Thanks for those encouraging words. The crazy thing is I felt free when I left nearly ten years ago. But sometimes it takes time for the repercussions to hit you hard. Now I'm dealing with a divorce, having kids, having had gotten married to someone only because we had sex and were pressured through guilt. This is not rare. So I'm not free from the consequences of having bought in to this. had the church been honest about the origins of it long ago, I would not have believed in it. And therefore I will suffer from this for the rest of my life. All because I was a naïve 24 year old that was lied to. I agree Christianity is harmful. religion in general can be. Bhudism might be the only one not harmful.
@@imoutbye Thanks.Believe me ,one day you will feel free and love yourself much more and respecting your own belief.Yes it takes time.But again, when free you will discover your true wonderful self who can love and be a great person in society.Always put joy in your job.It's necessary but also boost our personality.We all have turned a stone to make this world fabulous.Believe it!Grretings from Belgium.
One common theme/issue that comes from sexual repression is the forbidden fruit effect. Stigmatize certain things that may not deserve the stigma and the gratification will probably be far more than what it probably should be.
The bottom line is that this strict control of a NORMAL BODILY FUNCTION is part of mind control. It is impossible to live up to (unless you have no sexual drive at all in which case there are other issues). Therefore it is 100% guaranteed to cause unending guilt and shame and anxiety. Also “porn” - I don’t know how the Mormon church defines “porn”. Is a Playboy magazine or the SI swimsuit issue “porn”? Is an erotic romance novel “porn”? It seems to me that in a culture that considers bare shoulders to be “too erotic” they probably are. What are you supposed to do if you’re driving down a highway and a giant billboard with a mostly naked woman appears and you look and have a sexual thought (this is fact must happen at least outside of Utah)? This is a no win situation for sure.
Finding a gal who's "active" in "the Church" for a marriage partner is a great plan . . . particularly if you want to be tangled up with a maladjusted, frigid prude who takes all her marching orders from others, instead of thinking for herself and looking at things logically.
I am not LDS, but some of my closest friends are. When I was in high school I attended a Fellowship of Christian Athlete's national conference. One of the high school athletes asked the pastor (who was open for questions after his talk and was a married father a little over 40) whether masturbation was wrong. The pastor explained that masturbation was a harmless, perfectly normal form of sexual release and that he occasionally masturbated. Recognizing that sexual pleasure is a gift from God, being thankful to God for sexual pleasure, and hoping for a marriage as happy and successful as my parents was a great blessing and relief. Also, I would have felt it be inappropriate and creepy to have adults prying into whether I masturbated and attempting to shame me for doing so. Thankfully, the pastor's message reinforced what my Christian parents had already told me. I'm saddened to learn many other teenagers have a very damaging experience in their faith community.
I'm sorry that Kyle h 1:49 ad such an unpleasant experience as a youth. My experience was completely the opposite. My religious leaders were kind, helpful and supportive in every way, not the type to condemn anyone. In Kyle's case, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Don't condemn the doctrine because another person's poor judgment and mistakes. What's most unfortunate is Dehlins unprofessional comments under the guise of expertise. Dehlin's line of reasoning is utter nonsense, not supported by reliable research or logic. In fact, it's actually false reasoning. He makes false statements and claims they are true, as if he is some sort of authority on the matter. There's no sense of objectivity in Dehlin's arguments, which bleed bias against sound moral principles. They are completely one-sided. It's obvious that Dehlin has a personal ax to grind against the church and seeks for attention and allies for his personal opinions that have no basis in reality whatsoever. Absolute garbage. Reminiscent of Sherem's manner of reasoning with no substance.
The Church basically did a flip-flop on sexuality (as well as MANY other things). Smith, Young, and others were apparently sexual addicts/predators, and that's why they invented "polygamy." Now to the other end of the spectrum: You mustn't be thinking about sex at all, except to grab someone (and don't be picky!) with a pulse and a recommend and start cranking out offspring 9 months and 15 minutes apart. Otherwise, don't be doing any thinking about sex at all.
Shame comes from the church regarding porn... And shame also comes from the woke left. People are or should be free to express themselves sexually.... Period as long as the sexuality isn't hurting anyone... And here's the thing, sometimes a healthy sexuality involves consentual hurting. Sex is complicated and nuanced and the conservative ideas about it are in some ways just as bad as the woke. It's all about a people wanting to make rules for others and the only real way to be free is to talk about things without being shamed. Some people like what others might consider dark and that should be okay... With consent. But when people shut things down because they say x is bad it removes consent from the equation and does harm.
You misunderstand the woke left. We are ok with all CONSENTUAL sex, provided there is CONSENT, the parties are of age and the parties aren't closely related. As a "woke female" you are misguided and completely wrong for connecting my willingness to be ok with kink with my political leanings. The two are completely unrelated. If you spent any time in the fetish community you would have an understanding of that.
What does John’s interview have to do with wokeness? Not a woke, so i’m not defensive about it, but this comment/rant seems entirely unrelated to the topic in the video and out of nowhere. Just looks like you felt like going off about wokeness and trying to find a way to tie it to the video. Weird. It’s like if there’s a youtube video taking about bandsaws and you go off about how knives are sharp and dangerous.
No, it’s just another one in the bunch of denominations. Pick the Bible or the D & C. They don’t agree with each other. Challenge: read the NT Bible every day and read the BOM once every 4 years like you read the NT. And you will then read the D& C and find they don’t agree.
@@gomifunelives6085 You're lack of knowledge, rebellious, deceit, betrayal, hate, jealous, envious, refused to repent from personal sins its obvious; THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS is, the only TRUE CHURCH. You don't know what you're talking about. You need to do your homework, you have a lot to learn.
glad you are speaking about this John. It is THE problem of my generation that grew up in the church. So much unnecessary pain and shame and collateral damage.
as a former member of the LDS Church, I wish I knew then what I know now.....My mission would have been filled with "joy"...instead of constant frustration and shame......Thank You John for tackling this issue.
Thanks for the discussion John. More of this is needed.
So very true, John.
My background is not Mormonism but grew up in a very strict Pentecostal church. There are so many similarities not only the shame cycle concerning this subject but in many other prohibitions. Prohibitions that should be a personal preference as in my childhood i.e.no dancing, no going to movies, no playing cards, no wearing of makeup for women or jewelry, clothing restrictions etc. I imagine that all these different things can be taken to an unhealthy state, just like over eating, but the shame imposed is the most damaging. I hope that sometime you could air an interview with a person that has transitioned out of that type of environment. The transition for me was leaving the Pentecostal environment not the Christian faith but find that I still fight resentment towards those that perpetuated the shame and quite frankly creating several tiers that made the leadership act superior to the "sinful" parishioners. It surprised me how much the B.I.T.E. model applied to my childhood experiences in that denomination.
Thank you for your insight on this. I appreciate your willingness to share. It's refreshing to read something so well articulated, respectful, and thought provoking! This type of engagement brings a smile to my face and has such an impact for good in the world!
This why I left the church all toghether.For me it's a mental/emotional prison where you true 'self' your personality is diminished, constantly needs reprimands, where I never was sufficient for Gods blessings and on top the whole church system is 'man' made.I am so free to believe or not believe.For example; I do not believe God anwsering prayers.I still wait on tons of decent and humble prayer requests since 40 years.I also did not find or feel great 'peace' being a christian.But I have that 'peace' feeling since I went to Saudi Arabia and felt such a peace.Yes ,islam is also a religion of peace as you also find in other faith..But christianity is for me so 'forced' upon us.
Dehlin is a fabulous host.
I agree with John. We need to look at why someone is looking at it. We also need to look at methods to make people want to watch it less. The shaming part will create more guilt and shame and a vicious cycle.
Thanks for the open, honest and frank discussion, Kyle ... very brave of you and you speak so well. It makes me upset and angry that you had to go through all that rubbish. Cheers to both you and Neesha and all the best for the rest of your life journey.
This cycle of guilt and shame the repent. Then repeat cycle. Sounds like the shame addiction cycle John Bradshaw identifies in his books on addictions.
Even news sites in Russia covered a story of a Provo girl canceling her wedding because her fiance watched one pornographic video. She even told the guests what was the reason of the cancelation.
The guy simply had no idea what to do in bed and decided to watch a "tutorial" video!
OMG
Poor guy that is beyond cruel
This is fantastic
Amen & Amen
Thank you. 😭
If you masturbate and/or watch porn you're not a bad person or a sinner unworthy of the Holy Ghost or priesthood power, etc. If you watch porn excessively you're not a bad person just as if binge eating doesn't make someone a bad person. However, binge eating isn't healthy. Excessive masturbation/ porn use/ sexual activity isn't healthy either. Sex/porn addiction is real addiction just like food addiction or any other addiction. Sex/porn addiction is arguably the hardest to overcome and in my opinion hurts the most people (in many cases) because it often leads to cheating, infidelity, sexual abuse, sexual assault, human trafficking, pedophilia, etc. A great resource to understand the harms of pornography is Fight The New Drug. "Fight the New Drug is a non-religious and non-legislative organization that exists to provide individuals the opportunity to make an informed decision regarding pornography by raising awareness on its harmful effects using only science, facts, and personal accounts."
Why I made my most irresponsible choices in life. I felt guilt, shame, emberasment, worthless, etc, leads to depression, self doubt, listening to bad advice from older Mormons, irrational thought. Laying the path for irrational decision making. And I was only active fir 6 years and will pay the price for the rest of my life. Chronic depression began as I became active.
I got off easy. Some have taken their lives.
You don't have to feel any longer that way.You are free to be yourself as long as you do not harm others.You have every right on happiness.Don't block yourself or limit yourself.Christianity is very harmful to our personality and mental health.Be free and enjoy it !!Love from Belgium.
@@michelinedemeulemeester9087 Thanks for those encouraging words. The crazy thing is I felt free when I left nearly ten years ago. But sometimes it takes time for the repercussions to hit you hard. Now I'm dealing with a divorce, having kids, having had gotten married to someone only because we had sex and were pressured through guilt. This is not rare. So I'm not free from the consequences of having bought in to this. had the church been honest about the origins of it long ago, I would not have believed in it. And therefore I will suffer from this for the rest of my life. All because I was a naïve 24 year old that was lied to. I agree Christianity is harmful. religion in general can be. Bhudism might be the only one not harmful.
@@imoutbye Thanks.Believe me ,one day you will feel free and love yourself much more and respecting your own belief.Yes it takes time.But again, when free you will discover your true wonderful self who can love and be a great person in society.Always put joy in your job.It's necessary but also boost our personality.We all have turned a stone to make this world fabulous.Believe it!Grretings from Belgium.
@@michelinedemeulemeester9087 Thanks for the very positive message and vibes. That's encouraging.
John Dehlin & his family, left The CHURCH, refused to repent, from personal sins, now they're up to, for riches & honor.
One common theme/issue that comes from sexual repression is the forbidden fruit effect. Stigmatize certain things that may not deserve the stigma and the gratification will probably be far more than what it probably should be.
U guys are a good looking couple. Thanks for sharing
The bottom line is that this strict control of a NORMAL BODILY FUNCTION is part of mind control. It is impossible to live up to (unless you have no sexual drive at all in which case there are other issues). Therefore it is 100% guaranteed to cause unending guilt and shame and anxiety. Also “porn” - I don’t know how the Mormon church defines “porn”. Is a Playboy magazine or the SI swimsuit issue “porn”? Is an erotic romance novel “porn”? It seems to me that in a culture that considers bare shoulders to be “too erotic” they probably are. What are you supposed to do if you’re driving down a highway and a giant billboard with a mostly naked woman appears and you look and have a sexual thought (this is fact must happen at least outside of Utah)? This is a no win situation for sure.
NEESHA!! I knew you!! I’m crying!
I’m shaking, I can barely believe this. So many people are waking up.
I’m so grateful.
Some, when they rebellious, refused to repent, from personal sins, they make endless excuses, lies, against THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST.
Finding a gal who's "active" in "the Church" for a marriage partner is a great plan . . . particularly if you want to be tangled up with a maladjusted, frigid prude who takes all her marching orders from others, instead of thinking for herself and looking at things logically.
I am not LDS, but some of my closest friends are. When I was in high school I attended a Fellowship of Christian Athlete's national conference. One of the high school athletes asked the pastor (who was open for questions after his talk and was a married father a little over 40) whether masturbation was wrong. The pastor explained that masturbation was a harmless, perfectly normal form of sexual release and that he occasionally masturbated. Recognizing that sexual pleasure is a gift from God, being thankful to God for sexual pleasure, and hoping for a marriage as happy and successful as my parents was a great blessing and relief. Also, I would have felt it be inappropriate and creepy to have adults prying into whether I masturbated and attempting to shame me for doing so. Thankfully, the pastor's message reinforced what my Christian parents had already told me. I'm saddened to learn many other teenagers have a very damaging experience in their faith community.
Agree
John spoke for 6 minutes.
I'm sorry that Kyle h 1:49 ad such an unpleasant experience as a youth. My experience was completely the opposite. My religious leaders were kind, helpful and supportive in every way, not the type to condemn anyone. In Kyle's case, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Don't condemn the doctrine because another person's poor judgment and mistakes.
What's most unfortunate is Dehlins unprofessional comments under the guise of expertise. Dehlin's line of reasoning is utter nonsense, not supported by reliable research or logic. In fact, it's actually false reasoning. He makes false statements and claims they are true, as if he is some sort of authority on the matter. There's no sense of objectivity in Dehlin's arguments, which bleed bias against sound moral principles. They are completely one-sided. It's obvious that Dehlin has a personal ax to grind against the church and seeks for attention and allies for his personal opinions that have no basis in reality whatsoever. Absolute garbage. Reminiscent of Sherem's manner of reasoning with no substance.
The Church basically did a flip-flop on sexuality (as well as MANY other things). Smith, Young, and others were apparently sexual addicts/predators, and that's why they invented "polygamy." Now to the other end of the spectrum: You mustn't be thinking about sex at all, except to grab someone (and don't be picky!) with a pulse and a recommend and start cranking out offspring 9 months and 15 minutes apart. Otherwise, don't be doing any thinking about sex at all.
Shame comes from the church regarding porn... And shame also comes from the woke left. People are or should be free to express themselves sexually.... Period as long as the sexuality isn't hurting anyone... And here's the thing, sometimes a healthy sexuality involves consentual hurting. Sex is complicated and nuanced and the conservative ideas about it are in some ways just as bad as the woke. It's all about a people wanting to make rules for others and the only real way to be free is to talk about things without being shamed. Some people like what others might consider dark and that should be okay... With consent. But when people shut things down because they say x is bad it removes consent from the equation and does harm.
You misunderstand the woke left. We are ok with all CONSENTUAL sex, provided there is CONSENT, the parties are of age and the parties aren't closely related.
As a "woke female" you are misguided and completely wrong for connecting my willingness to be ok with kink with my political leanings. The two are completely unrelated. If you spent any time in the fetish community you would have an understanding of that.
What does John’s interview have to do with wokeness? Not a woke, so i’m not defensive about it, but this comment/rant seems entirely unrelated to the topic in the video and out of nowhere. Just looks like you felt like going off about wokeness and trying to find a way to tie it to the video. Weird.
It’s like if there’s a youtube video taking about bandsaws and you go off about how knives are sharp and dangerous.
CHRISTIANITY, THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS, is the (only) TRUE CHURCH.
No, it’s just another one in the bunch of denominations. Pick the Bible or the D & C. They don’t agree with each other. Challenge: read the NT Bible every day and read the BOM once every 4 years like you read the NT. And you will then read the D& C and find they don’t agree.
@@gomifunelives6085 You're lack of knowledge, rebellious, deceit, betrayal, hate, jealous, envious, refused to repent from personal sins its obvious; THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS is, the only TRUE CHURCH. You don't know what you're talking about. You need to do your homework, you have a lot to learn.