Absolutely shocking how many people in YT comments can watch an entire video and somehow miss the entire point of it. It happens so often on my channel. At this point I am starting to think I might be the issue and I don't explain myself well enough, despite often repeating myself just to make sure people comprehend. This video, specifically about balance patches, has so many people mentioning AK modules or AL retrofits and whatnot. How do you watch a video that mentions balance patches at least 5 times, with "balance patches" in the title, and somehow miss completely that the video is about balance patches? No, modules in AK and retrofits in AL and new relic sets in HSR and uptie 4 in limbus and whatnot are NOT balance patches. There is a reason the corpos opt for these new additions rather than a balance patch. It's more integrated with the game, it will have people complain less, and most importantly a whole new system needs a LOT more work to be integrated organically in the already existing game, making it so they won't just come out on a whim (like balance patches) and making it so the chance they'll be used maliciously is far less likely (unlike balance patches)
I think another good point you could've mentioned is the fact that these games aren't multiplayer focused, especially in a competitive sense. Those games require nerfs as to not break game balance all the while older stuff suffer powercreep get buffs to stay relevant. The meta in competitive multiplayer games matters more for players whereas gachas don't have that same incentive.
If I had to guess, it's that part about "How to actually improve units" that got people talking about modules and whatnot. Also people like to yap, and likely just want an excuse to talk about their favorite gacha game. I would've too, if you didn't specify here about why you didn't talk about things like new Relic Sets in HSR. Given how much of an issue seems to you, you probably should've clarified this fact in the video, just as a quick disclamer. Al least then you could point people to the disclaimer in the video and not here in the comment section.
The core reason 99% of gacha games dont do balance patches is because what even is the point? Why would you want to make old and easily accessible units better when you can sell characters that do the same thing but better instead? The nerfs follow the same logic, why nerf a broken operator when people will surely pull and spend for them solely because they are broken?
This video reminds me of something a Limbus Company streamer said once. Bro started ranting about how buffs and nerfs are "new content" and someone in the chat went "aren't balance changes common in gacha games" and mofo said yes they are, which is a blatantly wrong statement. I swear to god, allah and the holy slot machine, Limbus company players are bigger gacha normies than genshin players during the launch of the game bro
Limbus launch player here, A lot of people here take how generous their gacha is for granted ngl. There are some people who play Limbus and no other gacha but the game did attract a large gacha audience with experience in the genre.
Was going to say FGO buffs units all the time, hell even arknights has modules to buff units and game mechanics to nerf operators. Like making all new enemies immune to silence to nerf Silence.
@@datnoob4394 well, they buff all the time but a lot of the buffs are also fully fake and don't really benefit the character. While some Like Caster Gilgamesh's turns a weak servant into someone better than 99% of the cast.
Yo, Granblue mentioned. Saw the title and immediately remembered the time when I came back total the game and summer Jeane got reworked while I was away. She felt like half a different character and it changed my rotations for my wind team. Idk if she got better from the change, but at first she definitely felt worse for the way I was playing.
Not buffing characters because the character's banner is already over is a bad argument. They can just bring the buff at the start of the rerun banner of the character.
That's even worse, lets say we have character A and B. First, you skip A banner because they are so weak even though you like them more than character B. And then you spend your premium currency into B banner which are much stronger than character A . After B banner is over, A rerun banner is coming with buffs that makes character A on par with charcter B. It makes it more difficult to make a pull decision. Cuz, who knows a character will get a buff in the future.
@@udinswek4470 This argument doesn't work because character B can also get buffed. Even so, B getting a buff would not nerf A. Character A would still be meta. If your only reason for rolling is meta then you wouldn't regret rolling for B. If you roll for waifu then buff discussions should not affect your decision. I know all this because FGO already does this and there are no issues with buffs in regards to banners.
@@aizeroth8858 Yeah and if you liked the character and rolled for it in the past. I am sure those people would be glad for the buff. It is really unlikely that the buff will be broken enough it'll replace the newer characters. Funny thing is that the module system could have been used for this purpose and actually fix issues that some older units had, like Frostleaf.
@@kosmosXcannon I mean their have been buffs to old character that make them better than newer servants (Gilgamesh being buffed to point where he outdamages st units while being AoE and year 1 for one example) but again community is more of mind, "oh no I missed the unit and now I am ruined cuz this newer character is weaker" and more like "oh I might just roll him if he gets rerun again" or "the character I like is usable so it's fine and even they might get eventual upgrade and they have this certain niche wheir they still outperform". Like there are over 400+ units, some stuff is bound to be better than other. The most broken unit in the game is an year 5 unit (castoria) followed for few year 6 units even 9 years into game
Man, if only HG made characters that buff each other based on faction synergy thereby making one particular character 🐳 stronger with characters of the same faction 🦈 🎣 🦑 Too bad they’ll never make anything like that for other factions…
Yeah that synergy doesn't ever happen outside of Abyssal Hunters, the only things that compare are some passives like Silence Alter's or Shu's (that one requires to use Dusk to even activate bruh)
@@edgieststalker8141 Further proof the HG has clear favorites when it comes to buffing characters. Like, have you seen Gladiia’s Module. It’s like they purposely made the Abyssal Squad just to buff guard Skadi.
the thing is, in Hoyo's history, only ONE character was actively buffed and that was Zhongli, he was so trash at release that his shields are the equivalent of Vigil's dp generation, they buffed his shields to the point of nearly unbreakable that he essentially became the Myrtle of genshin where they made content around it like true damage bleed and so on (reverse pure fiction in this case lmao) And he's also the first one to be nerfed, his ult used to Petrify mobs and even bosses, now it's just mobs. It was only 3 seconds but that was a true stun for your units to go ham with
@@i_dont_have_a_youtube_chan8584 well those are game mechanics and are literally alters so to say, a whole new kit and suit which isn't a literal buff of just adding stats to a character like the example I specifically chose
Given how absolutely mental the gacha communities go even over minor inconveniences, it's obvious that you can't buff or nerf characters. What I don't understand is: Why even release terrible units in the first place? completely broken units are ofc also unhealthy, but they will sell. Vigil is a free unit, so they can make him as trash as they want, but why add Dehya the way she is? "hey, let's make our next banner flop. This will allow players to save up, also negatively impacting the sales of the following banner" ... That can't be a good financial decision, and in the end it's all about the money.
Me waiting for FGO buffing old characters Me also waiting for some of my char in GBF getting buffs Also me waiting for the next balance patch in Epic Seven I still remember Sasaki Koujiro getting allot of buffs. Artoria is diff because she's a poster girl/favorite child
I mean you could do something slightly malicious and only choose to buff units just before you announce their rerun. You do it ofc with the intent to get profit for said rerun but now the players who didn't roll saved their currency for something they wanted and have the opportunity now to save up for this buffed unit's rerun if they want and won't feel scammed because they were given necessary breathing room to save and those that got said unit don't have to worry as much and get the return on investment beyond just liking the character. Another thing you can do is as you said, make new content which makes older characters useful while keeping content around that keeps meta characters viable like Pure Fiction in HSR. But this still feels like scamming because you still sorta retroactively buffed older units by giving them content they are specifically good at and you have to keep adding units that are good at that mode to keep the meta in that mode fresh. I think the best way to handle bad units in Gacha games is just to create a system around making them viable even when they inevitably get power creeped from the launch of the game. A game that does this well is Fire Emblem heroes, because of the skill inheritance system you can make any unit stronger by sacrificing newer units to make older ones better. The only issue with this is that no units are allowed to be limited and most units loose their uniqueness in terms of gameplay, and you have to keep constantly power creeping to make newer units interesting enough to be summoned on in the first place. So it starts looking like an Ouroboros snake eating itself down the line and that might kill some long term enthusiasm for the game but if handled correctly could be the better alternative.
I am delighted to be watching such a clear and well articulated video, that has absolutely zero chance of being misinterpreted or having the point of it missed, given to us after a regular interval by arknights most beloved twitch streamer.
3:34 Honestly, playing all the Hoyo Games. I never trully feel, A True Limited Character Urgency to pull for them. Like Hoyo Banner Can have a Rerun for God knows how long In Arknights, when the banner said its LIMITED, its Trully Limited, Either from Aniv or Collabs, as they never trully rerun a banner (Exception on upcoming Rainbow Siege) , you can only get the previous limited characters in spooked. Like my ass Got Chen HOTDOGDAY when pulling for Ehja Alter (Im just a 1 year Doctor so no sh/t i miss Chen banner) I do hate that losing a 50/50 in hoyo banner will get you what the Standard banner sh/t out, theirs no Spooking in that pulls So yeah. Their Limited in A sense but can have a rerun in Hoyo Written banner, but if Hoyo would have a True Limited Banner, it Has to be a Collab Banner like HI3rd
I just realized this but is FGO really the only gacha left that still buffs units? Okay E7 does too along with others. The vid just had me wondering if they're that little left but I guess Supah was focusing on the ones that don't
Fire Emblem Heroes buffs units through weapon refines, but the powercreep there has gotten so bad that the refines end up being useless after a year or so
Dbz Dokkan and legends? Extreme Z awakening strengthens old units extremely...to the point where half of the top 10 units in the game are Eza‘d characters from 2+ years ago. Heck, they just introduced a mechanic that strengthens previously eza‘d chars further. Now the oldest year 1 units become up to par. Legends also had „zenkai“ boosts that increase the powerlevel. Fgo has rank ups Bleach brave souls has ressurection. There are some more...but thos are the games I have played in the last decade
You know, I just realized that Goddess of Victory: Nikke actually managed to get away with buffing two characters. One was Neon: Blue Ocean, a limited summer alter, and she was SO BAD that the playerbase deemed her absolutely unusable in her intended niche (being a water anti-fire unit, when unit element in Nikke doesn't really matter). The devs decided to buff her, but her kit was just so dysfunctional that she only went from 'absolutely worthless' to 'barely useable in her hyper-specific niche' as a result. The other was Red Hood, and she was powerful, but overly so. The playerbase wasn't happy considering how hyped up she was in the story, and the devs apparently agreed, so they tweaked her a bit to become absolutely busted. As far as I know, these are the ONLY two times a unit in Nikke has been directly buffed. The devs usually release alters that actually do something or, recently, favorite items (basically an analogue to Arknights' module system) that alter a Nikke's existing skills.
Theyve recently introduced special unique equipment, so far only 5 characters have them but 3 out of those 5 characters went from practically useless to high/top tier units
I think it depends on the gacha Epic Seven has a recall system when they nerf a unit which allows you to refund all materials you spent on a character and allows you to select any character of the same rarity. Whether this solution works in other gachas depends on each gacha and their systems. Sometimes it really important to have nerfs because there would be a really powerful character that could have unintended behaviour that could ruin the balance of a game and make every character irrelevant, which is probably not what companies and some players would want. I would say buffs are generally fine when its an additional investment like modules in Arknights or when its ridiculously easy to get any character you want like in Limbus. This wouldnt work with Hoyo limited characters. Some gachas set up the expectations that units will get buffed and generally they are doing fine. As long as it isnt like Hoyo limited characters where you cannot get that buffed character for a long long time, I think it should be fine. Another case is when the banner character is still up, I think buffing that character then is still justifiable. Since players that got the unit feel better about themselves and players who havent gotten the unit will just roll for it. Overall, I think the argument shouldnt really apply to all gachas. Since there are many edge cases and many gachas do them and the players are fine or they have setup the expectation thus far.
The point made in the video is completely valid. I don't mean to say that what he said is wrong in any way. But my healthiest solution would be to balance characters considered "trash" to at least "balanced", not necessarily a defining META, but at least reaching ~60%/70% of a more recent character. The fear of skipping a bad character and then having him become very good, exists, but it is equally frustrating to really like a character, who is sometimes NEW, and find out that he is not even considered functional. It really depends on your priorities as a player. About Deyha, they could easily buff her WHILE her banner was open, which lasts almost 3 weeks, and everyone would applaud, after all, everyone said she was horrible BEFORE she was released, but her case is worse than that. She didn't even have the right to receive a quality of life update, if they improved her a little, it wouldn't change the game's meta AT ALL, but it would please everyone who likes the character. I just used her as an example, of course.
FGO with rank ups and Epic Seven with balance patches: "Am I a joke to you?" As for fomo, just give more banners and chance to roll the character like its not hard
@@ch1ngch3nghanji14 actually most japanese and Korean games are open to buffing. Like I have heard of Azur lane and Granblue doing that but since I don't play them, I didn't mention. Another game which indirectly buffed a lot of characters was magia record when they introduced skill tree system to the game (it's too niche so I didn't mention). Honestly it's the Chinese games I know that don't do that but even then Honkai impact have had augments, S1, S2 etc skill edition on rank up and release new divine key for old characters so guess not even all Chinese games
@@i_dont_have_a_youtube_chan8584 I can confirm with AL,since there was like only one case of a full batch of skill upgrades. Later on,the special gear would be implemented
E7 player, their balance patches are usually horrendous and change the meta in PvP to an alarming extent or ruin certain characters to the point that in more than two instances they've had to roll out a 5* selection tickets to swap out the recently nerfed units for someone who wasn't dog shit. Hwyoung is an example
Hoyo: Make gamemode where herta and himeko who was low tier become epic Hg: Release is5 to make wisadel, top 2 Chara (after gummy) become even better, meanwhile rosmontis who was poor and become powercreeped even harder by roach...
FGO keeps buffing old characters left and right, so most of them can keep up with current meta. Or maybe even stronger than the new units. And there's also animation updates too.
Its more like they just give random stuff Some get like a guts or crit up skill while some get 50% charge + 20% charge AoE. Or they will buff the np dmg for a character that lacks the charge to use NP so nothing changes.
@@GS_CCC "Just NP damage" Yeah just some super-effective damage modifier against certain traits that makes you deal 50% more damage. No big deal right?
@@theordinaryex-vampire1914 what are you talking about, I'm saying that for the servants you don't really get to use the NP. NP dmg in a character like Summer Musashi will change something, But look at Jeanne Alter Lily, they gave her 10% aoe atk up for 3t after NP and more dmg on it. the character only has 20% charge, outside event nodes with an MLB CE she won't be using it, and you won't use her for that since 10% atk is a nothing effect.
@@GS_CCC there are also buffs that reduced cds(those are really rare). Most common ones are changing a skill to have 3 turns instead of 1 + some effect that would be useful for the unit. Like if they are an arts crit unit. Instead of an arts buff for 1 turn they might have it for 3 turns now + a crit star bomb, maybe even with a 1 turn crit buff, since the skill was that bad prior.
HSR has been fair, as much as it can be, when it comes to power system, I get that. BUT WHY NERF MY MAN JIAOQIU TO THE POINT WHERE EVEN 4 STARS OUTSHINE HIM?? He was already niched to begin with, and HSR just took away all of what made him good away - for fun! They're don't want Acheron to go nuts?? But Firefly is already pretty good and they're releasing a character that would even make her better anyway! Whyyy T^T They should've just not released him if that's the case. -_-
I unironically believe JQ is a test to see how low they can go with a character and still sell him for millions of dollars (5 consecutive nerfs in the beta and removing the healing of our..."foxian healer" entirely with the very first beta version, no tests given - lol, lmao even) On the point of "outshined by 4 stars", not really. He's still gonna be a good upgrade over Pela and Guinaifen for Acheron's team and can also be valuable to DoT team if you're planning on using RM in another (or simply don't have her because Hoyo gacha). Is it worth potentially doing 180 pulls for him tho? Uhhh 💀 (I have offrated literally every character since I've started playing on Acheron's patch - except Acheron -, mostly 70 pull pities)
@@TheUnicornChicken the 4 stars are basically free tho so that for me makes him less valuable. Like, objectively speaking, it's not even worth to pull for him. But he's still a pretty husbando so I will still pull tho. FRICC U, MIHOYO
Dragalia Lost stands as a rather unique example of how even indirectly nerfing characters/playstyles can go horribly wrong if the devs get overzealous about it. The game dug itself a premature grave when they basically nuked the 1.x meta of stacking buffs by making it so all of the new endgame bosses introduced in 2.x spam an attack that both purges your generic buffs and prevents you from gaining them for a lengthy time, which meant the previous meta units didn't work anymore. This was compounded by them releasing one of the most overpowered buffers in the game just prior to said update, so people broke out their wallets for them, only to find they were useless in the next patch...then they compounded it *further* by releasing new characters with special buffs that ignored the aforementioned boss gimmick. People were understandably *pissed* and while they tried to band-aid fix it by rolling out a new upgrade system that allowed the old characters to get the "new" buffs to combat the endgame, the damage had been done at that point and a lot of people just quit on the spot over it.
@@pikachutobal Oh right. I forgot that they "fixed" the buff stacking problem, only for it to manifest itself again on some specific characters like her who ended up being too good at it again...though with her being a 4* instead of a 5* she was at least accessible. I think the most reasonable thing to do would've been to just cap the buffs at a certain number of stacks that keeps any one character becoming too overbearing.
Kind of agree, but if we assume that gacha games are finally going to be a balanced environment, then units are no longer an 'investment'. You can actually just pull on what you find fun without caring about the meta, and I hope for a future like that tbh
Kinda agree with you on most points, however it's still depends on what the game's direction is in the releases. Some game have a balance patches form the beginning so peoples are fine with unit getting buffs and nerfs in the future anytime, while some game like HSR, Arknights didn't have the balance patches in the first place so a suddenly balancing character would be causing a big problem in the game and community like you said It's like how alchemy stars or dislyte peoples are okay with character that requires a duplicate star to work properly because it's been like that since launch. While if Arknights releasing a 6* character that requires pot to be good, i'm sure everyone gonna riot against HG
I've played different kind of gacha games in the past until now and this is my opinion (mentioned games are a mix of games that I have played in the past and games that I am still playing) Having balance patches (buffs/nerfs) in gacha games such as Hoyo games (GI, HSR, ZZZ) and AK (just started playing) is not possible because of how hard and limited it is to get the summoning currency, which I believe is the most important factor. This is then supported by having these characters on a limited banner. Also there's no PVP to worry about which makes balance patches irrelevant. The solution for this kind of gacha game is in the video which is adding diverse content. On the other hand, having balance patches (buffs/nerfs) in gacha games such as Epic Seven (E7) and Summoners War (SW) is possible (not a must) because it is easier and more accessible to get the summoning currency with PVP content which is naturally the endgame content. SW doesn't have limited character banner system, but E7 does. This is why I said that I believe the accessibility of summoning currency is the most important factor because this overshadow having the limited character banner system. E7 and SW are gacha games that is very generous to players regarding summoning currency, and I've experienced it myself (though iirc SW is more generous than E7). In addition, the fact that E7's and SW's late mid to endgame content is PVP makes balance patches possible or else endgame will be boring (e.g. 50% of players using the top broken team comp and 50% of the players using the counter team for that top broken team comp for 5 years straight). In this case, the developers can resort to implementing balance patches to this kind of gacha games (PVP endgame), while adding diverse content. This is why I previously said 'is possible (not a must)' because I think that Blue Archive (BA) doesn't implement balance patches even when they have PVP content as well, but I might be wrong because I didn't read BA patch notes and play enough PVP to remember. Again, this is just my opinion! Informative video too 😀
I haven't watched but I hope you mention that it's literally illegal to nerf in China and not because of a conspiracy reason. Though I can't source my claim because I'm not a lawyer.
*warning, this comment applies to strictly arknights* I think the "its for your own benefit" argument is bullshit, the answer really is just money, the reason why most live service games do these balancing patches is because they lose nothing if they do and they lose playerbase if they don't, let's take Rainbow Six Siege for example, there's not much reason to avoid balancing patches because they lose nothing if they don't, players can already buy the operator they want, and sure, if they really wanna spend real money, that's their own thing, but other than that, the game is accessible to new players, just save up renown and buy the operator you want, gacha games however, are all about gambling for your characters, now that creates a dilemma because why buff up a low tier character and make the rest obsolete when you can just keep them in bad tier and create a new, stronger character to be rolled for
@@ThatPianoTuner nah, I just refer gacha player in general, not you. Beside, gacha player always defended this kind of predatory monetization which now plagued the whole game industry, how is that not pathetic of them? Hell, you could even say they and their damned gambling addiction are the REASON why most non-inide game is full of predatory monetization in the last 5 years.
@@dood52751I thought it was Rockstar and their GTA V that pioneered microtransactions in non-Indie games or AAA games, but I do acknowledge that gachas (and lootboxes/battle passes from other western games) don't help
AL did actually make a balance patch. ... It was 4 years ago at this point, implemented because of a new game mode to make sure certain skills weren't brokenly good, and it only made the units it buffed "usable", as it were. And that's the peak of balance patching I know of for gachas. Adding balance patches to a game which requires you to throw time and money at the problem instead of just time is hard.
I do sadly agree on the buffs part, and something that some gacha games also do is basically make a 5 star version of a 4 star, honkai Star rail for example with Arlan to Blade, or even previous 5 stars into another 5 star that has the same base mechanic as the previous one with the same type and element that will obviously perform better than the previous 5 star of the same role (totally not mad about how they did Clara dirty). I do still feel that there could be a way, but for that to happen, the gacha game has to start with it of course, I thought before a way to implement balance patches (only buffs, don't see the reason for nerfs) in some of the gacha games, stuff like "well limbus has the shop where most of the ID's are available with resources that you can stack up with not much problem, so maybe they can buff those up and shouldn't really be a problem since those are going to be available forever" same I thought with the standard banner characters, non limited characters, the whole deal, but yeah is still going to be considered a scam at the end of the day. Also HELL NAH, NOT MY FIREFLY GETTING NERFED
He hates Wuwa because he can't runs it if you don't know. Few weeks ago he also received sponsor from Zzz. So thats why he would never mention that game and its corelation. You can just look at his community post. Its an intentional hate for that game from him lmaoo
Oh, the ending was too accurate my wallet died last month two unexpected expenses happened, and my dishwasher and bike broke down. The next few months I have to be on a poor man's budget.
Arknights has received some patches in the past (not modules). Chain casters, Splash casters, Therapists and Dreadnoughts have received stat buff for example.
Guardian Tales & World Flipper are the two gacha games that occasionally release a "Balanced Patch". It's usually just buffs, but some gets a massive overhaul to their kit. RIP World Flipper 🙏
It's not just gacha games. Stuff like trading card games work the same way. Physical ones of course have no way to refund you, and I've heard that MTG might be relunctant to ban Nadu even though it's clearly too powerful. I don't play mtg, but I do play Shadowverse, a digital card game, and there was a "dark age" where a card called Alice was too strong. The problem is that Alice was the poster girl of the expansion, so they tried to nerf everyone except for her, so it tooks multiple months for her to finally get nerfed. That said, back to gacha games, I think it's fair to give balance changes to old units, and it's also better when it's not "just" a balance change, but a system, such as Arknight's modules, that buffs the old characters. I like how Honkai Impact, which tends to give out outdated units, gave old units new weapoms to make them viable again right after giving them away for free (albeit, if you were a veteran and already had that character, you do have a stronger version of that character thanks to the dupe).
Honestly i started in your content and the first thing i have seen is You roasting everybody telling that not getting a good character in their pulls was and still is skill issue, those is the top quality content that i subcribed for Btw i maxed out both of them, specially Huo Huo, i love her
As an Arknights player, I'm fully in favor of buffing Vigil and nerfing Wis'adel, I dont care if I use pulls and a character that breaks the game balancing now is only slightly better than all other units instead of entire dimensions of reality above the entire cannon multiverse. And Vigil has a cool design that is wasted on "Adnachiel but he can summon a shittier summon than the 4 star that takes 75 seconds to get block 3"
Thing is there needs to be crap units, "if everyone is super, no one is." and all that. As a business they need their products to feel "super" to sell so we need cheaply/easily available shitters and obsolete units to compare/contrast the newly released limited god units against. If there's only A and B tier units a lot of people wouldn't bother pulling for new units that do similar things as what they have but slightly better (as an example: HSR has an upcoming Debuffer 5* but he's not that much better than the 4* options already available so I'm skipping even though I basically main the nihility units). But if a player needs a role filled and they only have a c or lower tier unit to fill it with... the player will probably pull for the shiny new unit. For another example: I remember back when Arlan and Serval were my only lightning dps units until I got Kafka and later Acheron, I used to absolutely hate any MoC cycles that had lightning weak enemies but could clear them, I jumped on the new banners at lightspeed for better options. Also note that most of the bad units shown in this video are either free via an event (Vigil), or spookable (Dehya) or are a more easily acquired unit in some other way such as being purchasable from a monthly shop. Now that said if a hard to acquire limited unit is shit, someone fucked up.
Valid points. I still think an arguement can be made for non-limited units that are far worse than they should be like the slowing lord girl from AK I'm forgetting the name of and amber from GI. You're not getting scammed, because they never cycle out. Buffing them would make people that like their designs happy, and help new players slide into your game in the case of amber.
The only case of a balance patch update buffing a gacha unit that I can remember of from the top of my head, happened in FGO. Way back in 2015, when the game was first released in Japan, 2 whole years before the NA version (And Arknights players crying over a mere 6 months difference), Waver used to be trash, like, REALLY bad, bottom tier unit. But that changed one day, when the devs made a simple change to his kit: all of his skills now give NP charge to the party (This wasn't a rank-up quest, his skills were just changed from the get go), and that alone turned him from Zero to Hero in just a blink. Dude became the best servant in the game for a good long time, and even though powercreep would eventualy catch up to him, he's still considered a very good unit to this day, because being able to give 50% charge to an ally is that strong by itself.
Tldr: If you skip on a char and they buff it you feel like you missed out, if they nerf char you got after investing in them, you feel bad. Henceforth they refuse to buff or nerf for that reason.
I think the idea about players feeling scammed about skipping a bad unit that got buffed into a good one kinda misses the point about buffing a bad unit. The point is to make that unit useable again, it's to make the unit feel like they belong in the game instead of just being a doll to dress up and gather dust in about a week. Also bad units are made to make the player feel bad when the unit is summoned. The unit puts emphasis on using money for gacha currency to summon a much better unit. This wouldn't be a thing if the unit was just good right of the bat. Also you can buff a unit to the point where they are considered being used in combat, not meta.
GBF outright removing Siette de Spade's ability to apply Awakening bonuses off-element, Epic Seven solving a playable boss glitch by nerfing the one in player's inventories to regular playable mob power levels etc. It's rare but it does happen.
makes me remember how zhongli got buffed along with his rerun during early genshin times after being the worst 5* released though the whole situation was a bit different back then
Getting scammed because a unit got buffed and now the banner is not there can be easily solved by putting rebalanced characters back on schedule or even putting the rebalanced characters in a new different banner schedule set aside from the standard limited one. And even if i got ''scammed'' it would be miles better than them rotting FOREVER. Hell, i don't even care of the uncertainty that balance patches throw into the mix. Granblue gets to rejuvenate their old and busted characters and it isn't like people complain about it. I certainly don't. About nerfs. I wouldn't be completely opposed if it is something that would grab the game and break it in half causing endless ripples in the future because they exist in the way they are. Chances are for people to not go ballistic you might need to issue refunds so i doubt it would happen often if ever during the lifecycle of the gacha but it could happen and it has happened. How much is Hoyo paying you Supah? Or is it Hypergryph so they don't have to change their awful approach?
Reminds me of elsword balance patches. When new class/ascension is so ridiculously broken, they get a balance patch, so now they can bite the dust in peace. I think Mad Paradox was so broken he got a nerf the day after release.
Good video overall. For module system in AK, its not exactly a balance patch equivalent but is supposed to replace them with more effort than "just tweaking some numbers" and less effort than "making an entire game mode to shine the lower tier characters". I also think aboht why some modules are dogsh*t. They might be because if they began improving every character through modules, then people will slowly began perceiving them as THE balance patches for weaker characters. By being inconsistent they don't let that image for for the modules. I also think what they might be doing multiple modules for. 1) obviously, different modules give different effects so they have uses in different situations 2) this is my opinion but giving multiple modules can allow them to improve a character slowly rather than suddenly giving a single strongest module and calling it a day. 3) game mode exclusive modules (recently announced) might also serve the purpose you said in the last part of your video, for eg, phantom's new IS exclusive module makes him a good unit but you can't use them outside the game mode itself. So people may give him the chance to shine even though hes been powercrept for a long time now. I'm sorry if the post was too long. But i wanted to get my thoughts about this videos out and clear.
Tfw Arknights did balance changes exactly five times (Ch'en S2, Leizi animation change, Brawler stat buffs, Infamous Chalter patch, Abjuers trait change) and only one of them sparked drama (guess which one) because it was not enough. Sadly now they realised they can sell those "balance" patches as modules....
I completely agree. Marvel Snap is one such game that confirms your point: balance patches, especially when frequent and disruptive, completely destroy any value characters (cards) may hold in the eyes of the players. Spending your hard earned currency to get a Tier0 card just to see it nerfed beyond recognition in the next couple of weeks leaves a bitter taste in your mouth.
FGO kinda buffs units with interludes and strengthening quests, never fully fixes a unit but definitely makes them better. Shift up buffed Red Hood within 2 days of her release upon community feedback (and internal metrics) to make her the best unit in the game. buffing can work if done quicky enough but nerfs will always cause backlash from those that pulled for the character and spent real money on it.
I know that the points of your video have been common consensus for a lot of Gacha games for a while now, but I’m starting to question if they’re truly an accurate sentiment or if we are all yet again being scammed. For example a huge negative consequence of no balance changes is that powercreep becomes inevitable: eventually, the designers will run out of new ideas, and the only option for new characters becomes retreading existing ideas but with a higher power. This also means that to an extent buffs often do exist in Gacha games, but in the worst possible way for the consumer. You like siege but wish she could keep up in the meta? Don’t worry, we’re “buffing” her by taking her entire kit, upgrading it substantially and giving it to our newest character, Saga. Now in order to access your newly buffed siege, you have to pull for a completely different character. On the other hand, the feel-bad example you gave of if balance changes did exist might not be the case whatsoever in practice. If characters got frequently changed to the point where either every character is balanced or the meta is in flux and everyone has their time in the sun, players won’t have any reason to pull for any characters other than personally liking their design, personality, or playstyle. It’s very possible that a gacha with balance patches will find that the only change is players will feel less pressured to get characters they don’t necessarily like. Finally, achieving a state where every option is balanced is significantly easier in a PvE game, which almost all successful Gachas are.
So in a gacha game im playing that has similar gameplay to AK, they nerfed a very powerful hero when he was pretty ruling over evey contwnt ever and those who dont have him has no hope againts those that has it. Specially because they have PVP arena. With the nerf they also had an reset hero event where everything you invested to the hero while be given back. Now the hero is OK, still strong but not OP as before. Game is Watcher of Realms if you're interested.
Honestly, looking at a gacha game that "buffed units" (Dokkan battle) by giving extra steps to become good units again seems a good concept since for some special stages, getting rewards in the way, you get an OLD unit updated to match newer units (imagine Frostleaf Skill 1 but instead of slowing she deals more attack and makes enemy unable to move for a bit) balancing new units wouldn't be a great idea as you mentioned, but the old units that are at the trash bottom of your account which might went through a few banners to get a new buff on skills or stuff ain't that bad.
TLDR: if u do any of them, the chinese players can and will report u to the ccp also, genshin has made characters really good after updates prime examples are electro units when dendro got added, they basically became cracked and there are times where characters like kazuha and kokomi were seen as awful but their true value came out after the banner and people regretted it. buffing isnt good simply because theyd be reported to the ccp if they even try doing so, the chinese players are just that sensitive. Heck they fucking hired a hitman because a playable man was added into HI3
>tldr: mihoyo We have Arknights (modules), Alchemy stars (equipment upgrade & some random buffs if they just feel like it), PGR (leap system). Reverse 1999 is planning on buffing older characters like Lilya & Druvis from launch or Shamane from 1.3 in some way. Theres a bunch of game(s) devs that don't completely disregard their fanbase... The way HSR is making certain characters relevant again also isn't really good, because it doesn't affect the actually bad characters (AOE characters just didn't have a role in most content till PF but they're still quite bad outside of PF rn while Blast characters will still do fine and can be really good outside of PF). Characters like Yanqing (not like I actually care about him, but it's the prime example) are never gonna be good because of poor design and Hoyo being Hoyo, only giving out the bare minimum. AS is obviously also just a way to sell the new break meta with ridiculously high HP pools (they even doubled the health in MoC from one season to the other because we're getting immensely stronger characters now lol).
Reverse have lots lots of character need helps. Moat of them are waste of investment, due to how quick they become obsolete. The game design only having 4 unit in a party, with damage oriented favoritism does not help. All 4* and lower unit is now garbage by this point of time.
Modules and leap system is just additional resource grind. I'm pretty sure what supah meant in the video is buffs like the chain caster rework on arknights
@@DisIngRaM Yeah maybe they'll adress that. Tho I don't expect the 3rd lowest rarity (2nd if you don't count the two gimmick 2stars) in the game to carry me through all content for years to come anyway... Also "most of them are a waste of investment, due to how quickly they become obsolete" is just wrong (I assume this is focusing on 5stars and 6stars). Many 5stars are viable, even 3star gimmicks can come in clutch on raids oddly enough, and 6stars might get outclassed, but does that matter if it's purely PvE and everyone can clear all content anyway? Spend away if you need bigger numbers or simply don't. It's also only been a year and yet we have various interesting team compositions available that don't necessarily clash with each other and power creep the other. Also constantly accessible through the actually sane gacha system (Arknights-ish coded gacha should be the absolute standard, not Hoyo and this one is pretty close to AK).
@@frizzlup5072 (very long comment here sorry so tldr: video about Hoyo, not Gachas in general - very small sample size and vid isnt even 10 min. Module systems good for easy and efficient balancing if devs care about their players.) Check what Arumi said. This was kinda just an excuse by Supah to complain about his sunk-cost fallacy with HSR before turning it into an HSR>Genshin war video because HSR is like slightly less worse so far. I also don't think his "buffing sets a terrible precedent" makes much sense cuz...really? Making a decent/unusable character good/usable later directly is too much fomo for you (again, 100% limited banners on every banner shouldn't be the standard in the first place, this is just a video about Hoyo)? He praises them adding PF as a new mode, but all this creates is more excuses for them to sell you new characters (PF just happens to be so mindlessly easy if you have AOE chars that it doesn't matter. Now they're released AS tho etc, etc.). And only straight up nerfing characters shouldn't be a thing anyway when people have already paid for them...looking at the latest Genshin patch lol. And module systems shouldn't be overlooked as means of balancing as you make it out to be. They're the easiest and most cost-efficient way for them to continuously keep players happy and not lose out on too much money (cuz the real whales are gonna keep whaling anyway, and the old chars will usually not truly match up to the new chars either). Hoyo specifically just really doesn't care about the players' happiness and brainwash them into being happy over 1.5 pulls from livestream codes.
Personally, as a FGO player, I'm more than accustomed to waiting for 2+ years for my favorite character to get another rate-up banner. Roll in all the buffs you can muster, developers, I'LL WAIT!
I kind of doubt that most people roll for strength, given on how many people I see every new release in basically any gacha game, where people with no idea in gameplay or information from outside the game throw money at a new character, no matter how good or bad they are before even looking at any form of gameplay. After that, usually the funniest stuff happens, by them throwing whatever resources at the new character they have floating around (usually not much), try out the half as leveled character as their usual characters and determine the character is bad, never to be looked at again. That is the main gacha crowd we are dealing with in the 'genre'.
Granblue Fantasy is the only gacha game I know that buffs characters. One of the best examples is Arulumaya an Earth support character. She went from mediocre to Top tier must have Support for Earth lineups.
Like many, MANY other commenters have said: gacha games CAN do balance patches just fine, buffing (or sometimes nerfing) certain units to keep up with newer ones and the meta, all in their own way. Arknights, Fate/Grand Order, Granblue Fantasy, Epic Seven, Alchemy Stars, Punishing Gray Raven... All those games, and many others, have proven that it can be done. You yourself should've known, SUPAH, with how Passenger's module upgrade turn him from a sh*t tier operator to one of the better ones (not the best, mind you, but he's definitely not sh*t anymore). As for the problems you pointed out--of players malding when buffs/nerfs are added--one of the possible solutions to it is pretty simple: just release the buffs right before, or during, the unit's rerun banner. That way, players don't really feel bad, because if the buffs end up propelling the unit to top-tier meta status, they can just pull the unit on said banner--which, in turn, will boost the sales on that banner, generating more money for the devs/publishers. It's a win-win, don't you think? And in my opinion, it's definitely better than releasing game mode(s) specifically made for those units like HSR does, because at the end of the day, said units are still going to be bad pretty much anywhere else, and unless players are given enough incentives to keep playing those new game mode(s), they're not going to even try it out more than once or twice.
The thing is the module is a thing you snap on to the character and not a change to the character directly, effectively being an opt-in balance patch for each player to decide if and when they want to apply it. China and I believe Japan both have a very strict set of consumer protection laws related to devaluing something that's already been purchased (I believe the doing of Apple removing features from their phones via update) and treat gatcha characters as purchased goods, so companies need exceptional circumstances (like Genshin customers going to the party suggesting Zhongli being weak was _unpatriotic_ ) to make changes.
@@CruelestChris I mean, it's not a particularly bad thing if it's an opt-in balance patch, no? It's not like you'll suddenly use the characters five times more often just because they get it... Okay, maybe you will do it to one or two, but it's not like you'll do it on ALL of them. As for the consumer protection laws thing, this is actually the first time I've heard of them. Can you elaborate more on that? I'm interested.
there was a story about kal'tsit was apparently so broken during her initial release they had to pull her and rebalance her. i dont know if it was a CN release or some kind of beta, but a beta of some kind would be very useful to root out "unintended behavior" before a character is released. it could give an early look at upcoming characters with the knowledge ahead of time that they might be adjusted before release, and also give CN players a heads up on who might come next in general
Idk for your video balance patch seems to make a F tier character into a A tier and nerf a X tier character into a B tier but a lot off people want it a very slight increase/decrease in power, from 1-2 tiers max, primarly in endgame content
Imo "Balance Patches" shouldn't exist outside of games with PvP aspects, be it gacha or not. The art of Buffing is made so that a character identity is reinforced while putting them on par with current standarts. As for Nerfing it's something that has no purpose on a single-player enviroment, the Neuvilette nerf wouldn't change a thing because Genshin doesn't have a PvP system, so it's not like you'd have 2 players pick Neuvi and have a Beyblade fight. The one example I can give is of Epic 7, a game I regard as one of the most well balanced gachas I've ever played. Their balance patches consists of buff that makes units excel better at the enviroment they live be it PvP or PvE, and nerfs that happen exclusively when they make a fucky wucky and accidentally give some old granny a one shot ability, nerfs are rare because of how every unit has at least 5 counters, but they can still happen and the community are more often glad than not. As for the scam, the solution is simple and an inherit part of gachas. Just. Rerun. Everytime a character gets updated they either rerun or get featured through an assortment of different methods. If you alredy had the character, now you can try them again, and if you don't you have a chance to attain it again. That said, most gacha games can't do "Balance Patches" because that includes nerfs on a singleplayer game, however they CAN do "Character Adjustments/Rework". Though not everygame may need this. Arknights has a weird aspect of having so that every unit is playable, some maybe be stronger than others but overall you can use anything almost anywhere. HSR has the interesting aspect of having gamemodes that make use of unused characters, but it's not like that works for everyone. Looking at you Seele. There's also Genshin which really shouldn't need any changes but their racial profiling made so that certain units are literally unplayable, so they gotta sort that out first.
I don't agree with the arguments presented given Hoyo games. To roll for the top meta characters its important for PvP, but if more character CAN clear the end game well, it gives a better chance that every pull, even not well thought out ones, good. But THAT is the point, if you don't have self control, you will just pull, and not "invest" , therefore probably needing to spend. It's ALWAYS money.
From observing gatcha marketing it seems like there is either a type of player who will download a game just to try and get an overpowered unit OR marketers for gatcha games think that aforementioned group of players exist, so it seems like none of them are that interested in being carefully balanced even outside of the market forces you describe here.
Dislyte just buffed quite a few old units, some of the buffs drastically changing their kits, making them either keep up with the modern units or give them a new niche.
I do agree that nerfing someone people already pulled for is essentially a scam and inherently a terrible decision. However, not with buffs. Yes, now whatever you wish to pull for (or skip) you know that it CAN get better in the future, and thus makes it harder to gauge the actual value of pulling for that character. But "not knowing what to pull for because anyone could get buffed", it's like... Just pull for what's actually better for you at the moment. Pulling based on the chance that they MIGHT get better is entirely on you, and the buff only incentivizes people that _did_ want that character but feared that it wasn't good enough. What you pull for should be decided on the *minimum* value you get out of them, not on a theoretical maximum. Really, the value you get *can* already fluctuate depending on what enemies come out (and does), so the "aw shucks I skipped them and now they're good" shouldn't be a reason. So even with the questionable things they could do, buffs aren't inherently bad and are actually _more good than bad for the players,_ thus can't be prohibited "for our own good". Look at Passenger. He's good, and no one died because of it!
Having players swipe their cards to buy their own iron cavalry mecha gf, then capping her knees might also be illegal in the EU and Australia and most countries probably. You could make a case that if you bought the EZ win ticket, then it was nerfed to balance it, then it's no longer what you purchased. It could depend on the game's audience/community/context though.
Marvel Snap does balance patches at least once a month so yeah, feels awful to see cards get buffed or nerfed after people got or skipped them. Although its not a gacha, it's impossible to get every good card without spending
Actually, I do think some of this is a stretch...kinda. Limbus peeps liked the buffs to Philclair, but that was more an oversight from Pmoon only testing him with a team that supported sp lowering (Having kromer faust). Now, Pmoon does nerf enemy fights, and while most people don't like that, as pmoon fans are masochists, I do think there has to be some level of accessibility for a gacha game and its totally understandable why pmoon would want the game to be easier for the sake of gacha fans coming in. Wait I forgot about the Ringsang "nerf" that made him not work in Blurn anymore lmao.
I agree on the nerfs, not really convinced on the buffs What difference does it make a straight up buff VS a "buff in retrospect" like Hoyoverse likes to do? Herta and Himeko weren't directly buffed, but the environment changed and they got an indirect power-up. So your evaluation of their strenght changes anyways, as established. If the unit goes from trash to OP, don't you feel like you should've pulled regardless of the directness/indirectness of the buff?
Balance patches can be abused by the developers and can come out on a whim. "Retroactive" buffs like Pure Fiction require a lot more work to fit into the game properly and are far less likely to come out of nowhere or be used maliciously.
You familiar with Epic 7? They nerfed a few characters once and the blowback was so bad it took them several years and a single character (Hwayoung) warping the meta extremely badly before they nerfed a character again. They do a decent amount of buffs though, a character that had been a memetic loser for years (ML Haste) just got turned into a powerhouse. It's a PvP driven game though, which I think makes things a bit different. Instead of coping that "my waifu Siege IS good if you only do x and y and z to make her work" people instead say "this character has been trash for ages, why don't you fix them) There's also several cases where a new unit comes out and everyone says "this trash unit will obviously be buffed in six months". Sometimes they're right, sometimes they aren't. Fun! The balance patches can be rough but they also feel necessary to keep the meta fresh without just requiring you to pull every single new unit.
It is gonna sound weird but this video fits crossout exactly aswell. You work hard, grind hard for a very valueable gun and when you get it. They drops that from the tower.
Well, I think I understood these "investment", "money grab purpose" and "scam" things, but still, regarding Arknights I love this game and I wish it was more balance-oriented. Afterall, they did buff chain-casters. I dont want game having nor Braindead OP, nor purposeless chars, just make them viable
Maybe you can relrase balance patches for 6 stars right when their banner re-runs or they become available in the cert shop so that at least the player decides if they want to roll for them or save up
I'm on the side of only buffing characters and never nerfing. Unless your game has PvP like Epic7. Dokkan and FGO is a prime example of how to buff old irrelevant units. They either make them strong enough to keep up with the current contents. Or give them new unique role to play in a certain team comp. It helps F2P who has those old units but doesn't want to summon for the new shiny ones. It gives paying players new toys/tools to play with. It gives waifu/husbando hunters a reason to use those old characters that may not be strong but have design that they like. It's a win-win on all sides.
Epic seven once had to nerf some characters and to make up for it gave all the resources spent on the character back and the ability to trade the nerfed character with another one, since then we never got another nerf We still have balance patches, most suck and when they don't people still complain since the unit that was memed before and everyone was skipping now is good and beating everyone's ass. What makes it worse for e7 is that it has pvp and it's the major focus of the game.
I can't even imagine what sort of gamemode or chapter gimmick Hypergryph could implement to drag Vigil from F-tier to S-tier considering other operators would still exist.
On Arknights the Buff players are coping for was on modules now which either good or bad/underwhelming/expensive resources to achieve that they make you not to get it or unnecessary.
NGL it's more of a "why genshin doesn't do balance patches" and not gacha games in general. Determining why and why not gacha games should do balance patches based on one of the worst gacha system out there isn't healthy as plenty of other gacha games have done balance patches (actual direct adjustment rather than ingame systems): E7, counterside, dislyte, Nikke, dokkan, HI3 way back, Brown dust 1 and 2, guardian tales, eversoul, afk, etc. Even if you argue that those have PVP on them, PVE exclusive gachas also have done balance patches: Limbus, AL, even AK. In addition, I disagree with your dissection of balance patches and "new additions". It's very naive to think that companies preferring to add modules/relic sets/ retrofit anything but timesink and/or money. Also people will "complain less" and "the chance they'll be used maliciously is far less likely" ?? Brother everytime the talk of module in AK comes up, there's a high chance that you complain that we were given very few mats to actually give our units the modules. Not to mention that these new timesink bring in additional opportunity cost of which units that you actually want to improve upon rather than a balance patch instantly making all the units good. If I didn't google "is siege's module good", i'd probably quit the game due to how asinine they treat her. Instead i could be happier in giving good modules to other operator. Also you know, the big elephant in the room? Selling mats for the "new additions" for real money? I mean it's not even making the solution of your example problem that hard. Just rerun them :v
Eversoul thankfully uses both new content to give under performing units a place to shine as well as simply buffing charcaters from time to time. They dont have much of the truely limited type units to contend with so the feeling of loss on not having a particular unit isnt as bad I suppose.
I'd say nerfing is a bit too risky, but buffing is a good move. There are some underwhelming characters that, due to being released so long ago, most players already own (ex: Earthspirit, Frostleaf, Siege, Eunectes, a significant portion of the 5-stars, etc.). People who would like those characters to be further buffed are a vocal majority. I suspect the main reason buffs don't happen anymore is because of bureaucracy. The hierarchy in big companies foster a culture of risk-aversion, especially towards changing things that have shown to work well for a long time. Every suggestion must be sent through and approved by so many people that no one can be blamed if it fails. And since balance patches are risky and they're already providing buffs in a safer way, often times there's not enough incentive to convince everyone involved that it's worth the trouble to push this idea.
![Tsukinogi is Terrible By Design, Here's Why [Arknights]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KyWZapIAvKs/mqdefault.jpg)
Absolutely shocking how many people in YT comments can watch an entire video and somehow miss the entire point of it. It happens so often on my channel. At this point I am starting to think I might be the issue and I don't explain myself well enough, despite often repeating myself just to make sure people comprehend.
This video, specifically about balance patches, has so many people mentioning AK modules or AL retrofits and whatnot. How do you watch a video that mentions balance patches at least 5 times, with "balance patches" in the title, and somehow miss completely that the video is about balance patches?
No, modules in AK and retrofits in AL and new relic sets in HSR and uptie 4 in limbus and whatnot are NOT balance patches. There is a reason the corpos opt for these new additions rather than a balance patch. It's more integrated with the game, it will have people complain less, and most importantly a whole new system needs a LOT more work to be integrated organically in the already existing game, making it so they won't just come out on a whim (like balance patches) and making it so the chance they'll be used maliciously is far less likely (unlike balance patches)
Don't build Gummy build Nearl
People in comments though have mentioned balance patches like Epic seven
I think another good point you could've mentioned is the fact that these games aren't multiplayer focused, especially in a competitive sense. Those games require nerfs as to not break game balance all the while older stuff suffer powercreep get buffs to stay relevant. The meta in competitive multiplayer games matters more for players whereas gachas don't have that same incentive.
legit waiting for the Ethan skin rerun for almost 2 years please Supah comment on it and rise up to HG to re-run it please 🙏
If I had to guess, it's that part about "How to actually improve units" that got people talking about modules and whatnot. Also people like to yap, and likely just want an excuse to talk about their favorite gacha game. I would've too, if you didn't specify here about why you didn't talk about things like new Relic Sets in HSR. Given how much of an issue seems to you, you probably should've clarified this fact in the video, just as a quick disclamer. Al least then you could point people to the disclaimer in the video and not here in the comment section.
in short: (stating the obvious) gacha is an unhealthy game design but we're all gambling addicts
The core reason 99% of gacha games dont do balance patches is because what even is the point? Why would you want to make old and easily accessible units better when you can sell characters that do the same thing but better instead? The nerfs follow the same logic, why nerf a broken operator when people will surely pull and spend for them solely because they are broken?
What about reruns? If you buff a returning character people would buy it too no?
@@mitchszrerun is for the simp (mostly true) or a completely broken unit in the past (like all Harmony in HSR)
@@ryoukaip ok so why not buff the character so the rerun gets more people pulling? lol
This video reminds me of something a Limbus Company streamer said once. Bro started ranting about how buffs and nerfs are "new content" and someone in the chat went "aren't balance changes common in gacha games" and mofo said yes they are, which is a blatantly wrong statement. I swear to god, allah and the holy slot machine, Limbus company players are bigger gacha normies than genshin players during the launch of the game bro
Limbabs remind me of early Arknights times where people were being pretentious as fuck and saying shit like "not like other gachas"
@@TheExpressionless1 To be fair, being able to shard for most shit warrants that reputation
@@TheExpressionless1 i mean it's true tho
Limbus launch player here,
A lot of people here take how generous their gacha is for granted ngl. There are some people who play Limbus and no other gacha but the game did attract a large gacha audience with experience in the genre.
@@TheExpressionless1where’s the lie?
Looking at fgo making trash tier units into gods
Was going to say FGO buffs units all the time, hell even arknights has modules to buff units and game mechanics to nerf operators.
Like making all new enemies immune to silence to nerf Silence.
Saber alter and Cu caster be like .
@@datnoob4394 well, they buff all the time but a lot of the buffs are also fully fake and don't really benefit the character.
While some Like Caster Gilgamesh's turns a weak servant into someone better than 99% of the cast.
Bruh.
Constantine whent from garbage to top tier on a single buff
not really, they only buff shit. not "fixing Neuvilette rotation speed" like genshit
Look at GBF and their countless rebalances to old units. They're still shit compared to new units, but at least they're viable to the newer players.
not to forget FLBs which occasionally turn shit characters into actually meta characters
Grand Chase constantly rebalanced its units, and evershifting meta eventually made me quit for good.
Yo, Granblue mentioned. Saw the title and immediately remembered the time when I came back total the game and summer Jeane got reworked while I was away. She felt like half a different character and it changed my rotations for my wind team. Idk if she got better from the change, but at first she definitely felt worse for the way I was playing.
because free m2 weapons and etc
those crappy rebalanced unit won't help them much
@@dedcet634There are some exceptions, like Summer Korwa going from terrible to core.
Very interesting to see a genshin character on arknights most hated RUclipsr's thumbnail.
Not buffing characters because the character's banner is already over is a bad argument. They can just bring the buff at the start of the rerun banner of the character.
That's even worse, lets say we have character A and B. First, you skip A banner because they are so weak even though you like them more than character B. And then you spend your premium currency into B banner which are much stronger than character A . After B banner is over, A rerun banner is coming with buffs that makes character A on par with charcter B. It makes it more difficult to make a pull decision. Cuz, who knows a character will get a buff in the future.
@@udinswek4470 This argument doesn't work because character B can also get buffed. Even so, B getting a buff would not nerf A. Character A would still be meta. If your only reason for rolling is meta then you wouldn't regret rolling for B. If you roll for waifu then buff discussions should not affect your decision.
I know all this because FGO already does this and there are no issues with buffs in regards to banners.
@@aizeroth8858 Yeah and if you liked the character and rolled for it in the past. I am sure those people would be glad for the buff. It is really unlikely that the buff will be broken enough it'll replace the newer characters. Funny thing is that the module system could have been used for this purpose and actually fix issues that some older units had, like Frostleaf.
i think thats what hoyoverse games brainrot can possibly made to some people
@@kosmosXcannon I mean their have been buffs to old character that make them better than newer servants (Gilgamesh being buffed to point where he outdamages st units while being AoE and year 1 for one example) but again community is more of mind, "oh no I missed the unit and now I am ruined cuz this newer character is weaker" and more like "oh I might just roll him if he gets rerun again" or "the character I like is usable so it's fine and even they might get eventual upgrade and they have this certain niche wheir they still outperform". Like there are over 400+ units, some stuff is bound to be better than other.
The most broken unit in the game is an year 5 unit (castoria) followed for few year 6 units even 9 years into game
7:19 Can't wait for supah to post a "Arknights youtuber reacts to every genshin trailer"
Man, if only HG made characters that buff each other based on faction synergy thereby making one particular character 🐳 stronger with characters of the same faction 🦈 🎣 🦑
Too bad they’ll never make anything like that for other factions…
Yeah that synergy doesn't ever happen outside of Abyssal Hunters, the only things that compare are some passives like Silence Alter's or Shu's (that one requires to use Dusk to even activate bruh)
They sort of tried to replicate that with kazimierz operator which turns out isnt that great
@@edgieststalker8141 Further proof the HG has clear favorites when it comes to buffing characters. Like, have you seen Gladiia’s Module. It’s like they purposely made the Abyssal Squad just to buff guard Skadi.
sieg and bag pipe buff vanguard ,. eyaja and most buff caster , there were many generic buff but they then they stop doing that lol
@@duynguyenbao5508 And the Abyssal Hunter buffs are still coming with Ulpian. It’s just not fair. 😡
the thing is, in Hoyo's history, only ONE character was actively buffed and that was Zhongli, he was so trash at release that his shields are the equivalent of Vigil's dp generation, they buffed his shields to the point of nearly unbreakable that he essentially became the Myrtle of genshin where they made content around it like true damage bleed and so on (reverse pure fiction in this case lmao)
And he's also the first one to be nerfed, his ult used to Petrify mobs and even bosses, now it's just mobs. It was only 3 seconds but that was a true stun for your units to go ham with
@@Xephyranth hoyo has buffed characters in honkai impact 3rd through augment cores and divine keys previously
pedantic i know but his shields were strongest in the game even during the release. The buff "only" increased it by 50%
@@i_dont_have_a_youtube_chan8584 well those are game mechanics and are literally alters so to say, a whole new kit and suit which isn't a literal buff of just adding stats to a character like the example I specifically chose
Who the hell uses shields in a game where you don't even dodge or get hit
crazy right. Thats just how braindead genshin combat is. Zzz and wuwa could never
Given how absolutely mental the gacha communities go even over minor inconveniences, it's obvious that you can't buff or nerf characters. What I don't understand is: Why even release terrible units in the first place? completely broken units are ofc also unhealthy, but they will sell. Vigil is a free unit, so they can make him as trash as they want, but why add Dehya the way she is? "hey, let's make our next banner flop. This will allow players to save up, also negatively impacting the sales of the following banner" ... That can't be a good financial decision, and in the end it's all about the money.
Humans make mistakes making kits.
Me waiting for FGO buffing old characters
Me also waiting for some of my char in GBF getting buffs
Also me waiting for the next balance patch in Epic Seven
I still remember Sasaki Koujiro getting allot of buffs. Artoria is diff because she's a poster girl/favorite child
Cutting down swallows with quick cards has never been so easy
Yeah the only thing really holding Regend back at this point is his base stats as a 1 star. Because his kit is great after all his buffs.
@@b1acksteve and that's why FGO's power creep and FOMO are fairly contained compared to other gachas
I mean you could do something slightly malicious and only choose to buff units just before you announce their rerun. You do it ofc with the intent to get profit for said rerun but now the players who didn't roll saved their currency for something they wanted and have the opportunity now to save up for this buffed unit's rerun if they want and won't feel scammed because they were given necessary breathing room to save and those that got said unit don't have to worry as much and get the return on investment beyond just liking the character.
Another thing you can do is as you said, make new content which makes older characters useful while keeping content around that keeps meta characters viable like Pure Fiction in HSR. But this still feels like scamming because you still sorta retroactively buffed older units by giving them content they are specifically good at and you have to keep adding units that are good at that mode to keep the meta in that mode fresh.
I think the best way to handle bad units in Gacha games is just to create a system around making them viable even when they inevitably get power creeped from the launch of the game. A game that does this well is Fire Emblem heroes, because of the skill inheritance system you can make any unit stronger by sacrificing newer units to make older ones better. The only issue with this is that no units are allowed to be limited and most units loose their uniqueness in terms of gameplay, and you have to keep constantly power creeping to make newer units interesting enough to be summoned on in the first place. So it starts looking like an Ouroboros snake eating itself down the line and that might kill some long term enthusiasm for the game but if handled correctly could be the better alternative.
I am delighted to be watching such a clear and well articulated video, that has absolutely zero chance of being misinterpreted or having the point of it missed, given to us after a regular interval by arknights most beloved twitch streamer.
3:34 Honestly, playing all the Hoyo Games. I never trully feel, A True Limited Character Urgency to pull for them. Like Hoyo Banner Can have a Rerun for God knows how long
In Arknights, when the banner said its LIMITED, its Trully Limited, Either from Aniv or Collabs, as they never trully rerun a banner (Exception on upcoming Rainbow Siege) ,
you can only get the previous limited characters in spooked. Like my ass Got Chen HOTDOGDAY when pulling for Ehja Alter (Im just a 1 year Doctor so no sh/t i miss Chen banner)
I do hate that losing a 50/50 in hoyo banner will get you what the Standard banner sh/t out, theirs no Spooking in that pulls
So yeah. Their Limited in A sense but can have a rerun in Hoyo Written banner, but if Hoyo would have a True Limited Banner, it Has to be a Collab Banner like HI3rd
Hoyo’s only true limiteds: Aloy and Asuka
@@ullamolina2007 XD i feel bad for Aloy
I just realized this but is FGO really the only gacha left that still buffs units? Okay E7 does too along with others. The vid just had me wondering if they're that little left but I guess Supah was focusing on the ones that don't
Granblue does that too
Azur Lane does it too,way more regularly than fgo.
Fire Emblem Heroes buffs units through weapon refines, but the powercreep there has gotten so bad that the refines end up being useless after a year or so
There’s also GS
Dbz Dokkan and legends?
Extreme Z awakening strengthens old units extremely...to the point where half of the top 10 units in the game are Eza‘d characters from 2+ years ago.
Heck, they just introduced a mechanic that strengthens previously eza‘d chars further. Now the oldest year 1 units become up to par.
Legends also had „zenkai“ boosts that increase the powerlevel.
Fgo has rank ups
Bleach brave souls has ressurection.
There are some more...but thos are the games I have played in the last decade
You know, I just realized that Goddess of Victory: Nikke actually managed to get away with buffing two characters. One was Neon: Blue Ocean, a limited summer alter, and she was SO BAD that the playerbase deemed her absolutely unusable in her intended niche (being a water anti-fire unit, when unit element in Nikke doesn't really matter). The devs decided to buff her, but her kit was just so dysfunctional that she only went from 'absolutely worthless' to 'barely useable in her hyper-specific niche' as a result. The other was Red Hood, and she was powerful, but overly so. The playerbase wasn't happy considering how hyped up she was in the story, and the devs apparently agreed, so they tweaked her a bit to become absolutely busted.
As far as I know, these are the ONLY two times a unit in Nikke has been directly buffed. The devs usually release alters that actually do something or, recently, favorite items (basically an analogue to Arknights' module system) that alter a Nikke's existing skills.
Theyve recently introduced special unique equipment, so far only 5 characters have them but 3 out of those 5 characters went from practically useless to high/top tier units
I think it depends on the gacha
Epic Seven has a recall system when they nerf a unit which allows you to refund all materials you spent on a character and allows you to select any character of the same rarity.
Whether this solution works in other gachas depends on each gacha and their systems.
Sometimes it really important to have nerfs because there would be a really powerful character that could have unintended behaviour that could ruin the balance of a game and make every character irrelevant, which is probably not what companies and some players would want.
I would say buffs are generally fine when its an additional investment like modules in Arknights or when its ridiculously easy to get any character you want like in Limbus. This wouldnt work with Hoyo limited characters. Some gachas set up the expectations that units will get buffed and generally they are doing fine. As long as it isnt like Hoyo limited characters where you cannot get that buffed character for a long long time, I think it should be fine.
Another case is when the banner character is still up, I think buffing that character then is still justifiable. Since players that got the unit feel better about themselves and players who havent gotten the unit will just roll for it.
Overall, I think the argument shouldnt really apply to all gachas. Since there are many edge cases and many gachas do them and the players are fine or they have setup the expectation thus far.
The point made in the video is completely valid. I don't mean to say that what he said is wrong in any way.
But my healthiest solution would be to balance characters considered "trash" to at least "balanced", not necessarily a defining META, but at least reaching ~60%/70% of a more recent character. The fear of skipping a bad character and then having him become very good, exists, but it is equally frustrating to really like a character, who is sometimes NEW, and find out that he is not even considered functional. It really depends on your priorities as a player.
About Deyha, they could easily buff her WHILE her banner was open, which lasts almost 3 weeks, and everyone would applaud, after all, everyone said she was horrible BEFORE she was released, but her case is worse than that. She didn't even have the right to receive a quality of life update, if they improved her a little, it wouldn't change the game's meta AT ALL, but it would please everyone who likes the character. I just used her as an example, of course.
FGO with rank ups and Epic Seven with balance patches: "Am I a joke to you?"
As for fomo, just give more banners and chance to roll the character like its not hard
dislyte as well they release balance patch every now and then
In video bro already said "most of them" not all, I think he know
@@ch1ngch3nghanji14 actually most japanese and Korean games are open to buffing. Like I have heard of Azur lane and Granblue doing that but since I don't play them, I didn't mention. Another game which indirectly buffed a lot of characters was magia record when they introduced skill tree system to the game (it's too niche so I didn't mention). Honestly it's the Chinese games I know that don't do that but even then Honkai impact have had augments, S1, S2 etc skill edition on rank up and release new divine key for old characters so guess not even all Chinese games
@@i_dont_have_a_youtube_chan8584 I can confirm with AL,since there was like only one case of a full batch of skill upgrades.
Later on,the special gear would be implemented
E7 player, their balance patches are usually horrendous and change the meta in PvP to an alarming extent or ruin certain characters to the point that in more than two instances they've had to roll out a 5* selection tickets to swap out the recently nerfed units for someone who wasn't dog shit. Hwyoung is an example
FGO: Hold my buffed old characters!!
Hoyo: Make gamemode where herta and himeko who was low tier become epic
Hg: Release is5 to make wisadel, top 2 Chara (after gummy) become even better, meanwhile rosmontis who was poor and become powercreeped even harder by roach...
FGO keeps buffing old characters left and right, so most of them can keep up with current meta. Or maybe even stronger than the new units.
And there's also animation updates too.
Its more like they just give random stuff
Some get like a guts or crit up skill while some get 50% charge + 20% charge AoE.
Or they will buff the np dmg for a character that lacks the charge to use NP so nothing changes.
@@GS_CCC "Just NP damage"
Yeah just some super-effective damage modifier against certain traits that makes you deal 50% more damage. No big deal right?
@@theordinaryex-vampire1914 what are you talking about, I'm saying that for the servants you don't really get to use the NP.
NP dmg in a character like Summer Musashi will change something,
But look at Jeanne Alter Lily, they gave her 10% aoe atk up for 3t after NP and more dmg on it.
the character only has 20% charge, outside event nodes with an MLB CE she won't be using it, and you won't use her for that since 10% atk is a nothing effect.
@@GS_CCCpoor iskandar dude just can’t get the one thing he needs to actually be pretty decent
@@GS_CCC there are also buffs that reduced cds(those are really rare). Most common ones are changing a skill to have 3 turns instead of 1 + some effect that would be useful for the unit. Like if they are an arts crit unit. Instead of an arts buff for 1 turn they might have it for 3 turns now + a crit star bomb, maybe even with a 1 turn crit buff, since the skill was that bad prior.
HSR has been fair, as much as it can be, when it comes to power system, I get that. BUT WHY NERF MY MAN JIAOQIU TO THE POINT WHERE EVEN 4 STARS OUTSHINE HIM?? He was already niched to begin with, and HSR just took away all of what made him good away - for fun! They're don't want Acheron to go nuts?? But Firefly is already pretty good and they're releasing a character that would even make her better anyway! Whyyy T^T
They should've just not released him if that's the case. -_-
I unironically believe JQ is a test to see how low they can go with a character and still sell him for millions of dollars (5 consecutive nerfs in the beta and removing the healing of our..."foxian healer" entirely with the very first beta version, no tests given - lol, lmao even)
On the point of "outshined by 4 stars", not really. He's still gonna be a good upgrade over Pela and Guinaifen for Acheron's team and can also be valuable to DoT team if you're planning on using RM in another (or simply don't have her because Hoyo gacha).
Is it worth potentially doing 180 pulls for him tho? Uhhh 💀 (I have offrated literally every character since I've started playing on Acheron's patch - except Acheron -, mostly 70 pull pities)
He got Arlan'd. Tragic.
@@TheUnicornChicken the 4 stars are basically free tho so that for me makes him less valuable. Like, objectively speaking, it's not even worth to pull for him. But he's still a pretty husbando so I will still pull tho. FRICC U, MIHOYO
Dragalia Lost stands as a rather unique example of how even indirectly nerfing characters/playstyles can go horribly wrong if the devs get overzealous about it.
The game dug itself a premature grave when they basically nuked the 1.x meta of stacking buffs by making it so all of the new endgame bosses introduced in 2.x spam an attack that both purges your generic buffs and prevents you from gaining them for a lengthy time, which meant the previous meta units didn't work anymore. This was compounded by them releasing one of the most overpowered buffers in the game just prior to said update, so people broke out their wallets for them, only to find they were useless in the next patch...then they compounded it *further* by releasing new characters with special buffs that ignored the aforementioned boss gimmick.
People were understandably *pissed* and while they tried to band-aid fix it by rolling out a new upgrade system that allowed the old characters to get the "new" buffs to combat the endgame, the damage had been done at that point and a lot of people just quit on the spot over it.
That was the spiral thing or what
Something had to be done imo, seeing Karina squads Speedrunning most endgame content like Tartarus faster than the most optimal comps was insane
@@pikachutobal Oh right. I forgot that they "fixed" the buff stacking problem, only for it to manifest itself again on some specific characters like her who ended up being too good at it again...though with her being a 4* instead of a 5* she was at least accessible.
I think the most reasonable thing to do would've been to just cap the buffs at a certain number of stacks that keeps any one character becoming too overbearing.
I just like the way Saga is presented when there's something bad is being uttered
Kind of agree, but if we assume that gacha games are finally going to be a balanced environment, then units are no longer an 'investment'. You can actually just pull on what you find fun without caring about the meta, and I hope for a future like that tbh
Kinda agree with you on most points, however it's still depends on what the game's direction is in the releases. Some game have a balance patches form the beginning so peoples are fine with unit getting buffs and nerfs in the future anytime, while some game like HSR, Arknights didn't have the balance patches in the first place so a suddenly balancing character would be causing a big problem in the game and community like you said
It's like how alchemy stars or dislyte peoples are okay with character that requires a duplicate star to work properly because it's been like that since launch. While if Arknights releasing a 6* character that requires pot to be good, i'm sure everyone gonna riot against HG
I've played different kind of gacha games in the past until now and this is my opinion (mentioned games are a mix of games that I have played in the past and games that I am still playing)
Having balance patches (buffs/nerfs) in gacha games such as Hoyo games (GI, HSR, ZZZ) and AK (just started playing) is not possible because of how hard and limited it is to get the summoning currency, which I believe is the most important factor. This is then supported by having these characters on a limited banner. Also there's no PVP to worry about which makes balance patches irrelevant.
The solution for this kind of gacha game is in the video which is adding diverse content.
On the other hand, having balance patches (buffs/nerfs) in gacha games such as Epic Seven (E7) and Summoners War (SW) is possible (not a must) because it is easier and more accessible to get the summoning currency with PVP content which is naturally the endgame content.
SW doesn't have limited character banner system, but E7 does. This is why I said that I believe the accessibility of summoning currency is the most important factor because this overshadow having the limited character banner system. E7 and SW are gacha games that is very generous to players regarding summoning currency, and I've experienced it myself (though iirc SW is more generous than E7). In addition, the fact that E7's and SW's late mid to endgame content is PVP makes balance patches possible or else endgame will be boring (e.g. 50% of players using the top broken team comp and 50% of the players using the counter team for that top broken team comp for 5 years straight).
In this case, the developers can resort to implementing balance patches to this kind of gacha games (PVP endgame), while adding diverse content. This is why I previously said 'is possible (not a must)' because I think that Blue Archive (BA) doesn't implement balance patches even when they have PVP content as well, but I might be wrong because I didn't read BA patch notes and play enough PVP to remember.
Again, this is just my opinion! Informative video too 😀
I haven't watched but I hope you mention that it's literally illegal to nerf in China and not because of a conspiracy reason. Though I can't source my claim because I'm not a lawyer.
*warning, this comment applies to strictly arknights*
I think the "its for your own benefit" argument is bullshit, the answer really is just money, the reason why most live service games do these balancing patches is because they lose nothing if they do and they lose playerbase if they don't, let's take Rainbow Six Siege for example, there's not much reason to avoid balancing patches because they lose nothing if they don't, players can already buy the operator they want, and sure, if they really wanna spend real money, that's their own thing, but other than that, the game is accessible to new players, just save up renown and buy the operator you want, gacha games however, are all about gambling for your characters, now that creates a dilemma because why buff up a low tier character and make the rest obsolete when you can just keep them in bad tier and create a new, stronger character to be rolled for
Gacha player can't stop being pathetic challenge: Impossible
@@dood52751 how am I being pathetic?
@@ThatPianoTuner nah, I just refer gacha player in general, not you.
Beside, gacha player always defended this kind of predatory monetization which now plagued the whole game industry, how is that not pathetic of them?
Hell, you could even say they and their damned gambling addiction are the REASON why most non-inide game is full of predatory monetization in the last 5 years.
@@dood52751 ah, fair enough, have a great day
@@dood52751I thought it was Rockstar and their GTA V that pioneered microtransactions in non-Indie games or AAA games, but I do acknowledge that gachas (and lootboxes/battle passes from other western games) don't help
I did maxed my HuoHuo, Supah. Just doing my part 😎
AL did actually make a balance patch.
... It was 4 years ago at this point, implemented because of a new game mode to make sure certain skills weren't brokenly good, and it only made the units it buffed "usable", as it were.
And that's the peak of balance patching I know of for gachas. Adding balance patches to a game which requires you to throw time and money at the problem instead of just time is hard.
I do sadly agree on the buffs part, and something that some gacha games also do is basically make a 5 star version of a 4 star, honkai Star rail for example with Arlan to Blade, or even previous 5 stars into another 5 star that has the same base mechanic as the previous one with the same type and element that will obviously perform better than the previous 5 star of the same role (totally not mad about how they did Clara dirty).
I do still feel that there could be a way, but for that to happen, the gacha game has to start with it of course, I thought before a way to implement balance patches (only buffs, don't see the reason for nerfs) in some of the gacha games, stuff like "well limbus has the shop where most of the ID's are available with resources that you can stack up with not much problem, so maybe they can buff those up and shouldn't really be a problem since those are going to be available forever" same I thought with the standard banner characters, non limited characters, the whole deal, but yeah is still going to be considered a scam at the end of the day.
Also HELL NAH, NOT MY FIREFLY GETTING NERFED
On a lesser degree, you can also put here the calcharo/yinlin duo
He hates Wuwa because he can't runs it if you don't know. Few weeks ago he also received sponsor from Zzz. So thats why he would never mention that game and its corelation.
You can just look at his community post. Its an intentional hate for that game from him lmaoo
@@arumi9410 yeah ggs low end devices that can't run ue4 graphics adios frame rates
Oh, the ending was too accurate my wallet died last month two unexpected expenses happened, and my dishwasher and bike broke down.
The next few months I have to be on a poor man's budget.
Arknights has received some patches in the past (not modules). Chain casters, Splash casters, Therapists and Dreadnoughts have received stat buff for example.
Guardian Tales & World Flipper are the two gacha games that occasionally release a "Balanced Patch". It's usually just buffs, but some gets a massive overhaul to their kit.
RIP World Flipper 🙏
Didn't Kong studios nerf KIA, Rosseta and Morrian?, I think they can get away with buffing because the purple tickets are a thing.
It's not just gacha games. Stuff like trading card games work the same way. Physical ones of course have no way to refund you, and I've heard that MTG might be relunctant to ban Nadu even though it's clearly too powerful. I don't play mtg, but I do play Shadowverse, a digital card game, and there was a "dark age" where a card called Alice was too strong. The problem is that Alice was the poster girl of the expansion, so they tried to nerf everyone except for her, so it tooks multiple months for her to finally get nerfed.
That said, back to gacha games, I think it's fair to give balance changes to old units, and it's also better when it's not "just" a balance change, but a system, such as Arknight's modules, that buffs the old characters.
I like how Honkai Impact, which tends to give out outdated units, gave old units new weapoms to make them viable again right after giving them away for free (albeit, if you were a veteran and already had that character, you do have a stronger version of that character thanks to the dupe).
Honestly i started in your content and the first thing i have seen is You roasting everybody telling that not getting a good character in their pulls was and still is skill issue, those is the top quality content that i subcribed for
Btw i maxed out both of them, specially Huo Huo, i love her
As an Arknights player, I'm fully in favor of buffing Vigil and nerfing Wis'adel, I dont care if I use pulls and a character that breaks the game balancing now is only slightly better than all other units instead of entire dimensions of reality above the entire cannon multiverse. And Vigil has a cool design that is wasted on "Adnachiel but he can summon a shittier summon than the 4 star that takes 75 seconds to get block 3"
Not in favor of nerfing cuz honestly this gotta be illegal, but buffing free characters completely circumvents the issues raised in this video.
@@akety3570for nerfing, yeah, look at how CN reacted to the Neuvillette patch
Great video as usual. keep up the good work supah!
Thing is there needs to be crap units, "if everyone is super, no one is." and all that. As a business they need their products to feel "super" to sell so we need cheaply/easily available shitters and obsolete units to compare/contrast the newly released limited god units against. If there's only A and B tier units a lot of people wouldn't bother pulling for new units that do similar things as what they have but slightly better (as an example: HSR has an upcoming Debuffer 5* but he's not that much better than the 4* options already available so I'm skipping even though I basically main the nihility units). But if a player needs a role filled and they only have a c or lower tier unit to fill it with... the player will probably pull for the shiny new unit.
For another example: I remember back when Arlan and Serval were my only lightning dps units until I got Kafka and later Acheron, I used to absolutely hate any MoC cycles that had lightning weak enemies but could clear them, I jumped on the new banners at lightspeed for better options.
Also note that most of the bad units shown in this video are either free via an event (Vigil), or spookable (Dehya) or are a more easily acquired unit in some other way such as being purchasable from a monthly shop.
Now that said if a hard to acquire limited unit is shit, someone fucked up.
Valid points. I still think an arguement can be made for non-limited units that are far worse than they should be like the slowing lord girl from AK I'm forgetting the name of and amber from GI. You're not getting scammed, because they never cycle out. Buffing them would make people that like their designs happy, and help new players slide into your game in the case of amber.
The only case of a balance patch update buffing a gacha unit that I can remember of from the top of my head, happened in FGO. Way back in 2015, when the game was first released in Japan, 2 whole years before the NA version (And Arknights players crying over a mere 6 months difference), Waver used to be trash, like, REALLY bad, bottom tier unit. But that changed one day, when the devs made a simple change to his kit: all of his skills now give NP charge to the party (This wasn't a rank-up quest, his skills were just changed from the get go), and that alone turned him from Zero to Hero in just a blink. Dude became the best servant in the game for a good long time, and even though powercreep would eventualy catch up to him, he's still considered a very good unit to this day, because being able to give 50% charge to an ally is that strong by itself.
Tldr: If you skip on a char and they buff it you feel like you missed out, if they nerf char you got after investing in them, you feel bad. Henceforth they refuse to buff or nerf for that reason.
I think the idea about players feeling scammed about skipping a bad unit that got buffed into a good one kinda misses the point about buffing a bad unit. The point is to make that unit useable again, it's to make the unit feel like they belong in the game instead of just being a doll to dress up and gather dust in about a week. Also bad units are made to make the player feel bad when the unit is summoned. The unit puts emphasis on using money for gacha currency to summon a much better unit. This wouldn't be a thing if the unit was just good right of the bat. Also you can buff a unit to the point where they are considered being used in combat, not meta.
In Honkai Impact 3rd, another hoyo game, when they want to buff a char, they release a new weapom and stigmata set for them
@@brunoluz3989 they also used to do augment cores but not anymore unfortunately
GBF outright removing Siette de Spade's ability to apply Awakening bonuses off-element, Epic Seven solving a playable boss glitch by nerfing the one in player's inventories to regular playable mob power levels etc. It's rare but it does happen.
makes me remember how zhongli got buffed along with his rerun during early genshin times after being the worst 5* released
though the whole situation was a bit different back then
Getting scammed because a unit got buffed and now the banner is not there can be easily solved by putting rebalanced characters back on schedule or even putting the rebalanced characters in a new different banner schedule set aside from the standard limited one. And even if i got ''scammed'' it would be miles better than them rotting FOREVER. Hell, i don't even care of the uncertainty that balance patches throw into the mix. Granblue gets to rejuvenate their old and busted characters and it isn't like people complain about it. I certainly don't.
About nerfs. I wouldn't be completely opposed if it is something that would grab the game and break it in half causing endless ripples in the future because they exist in the way they are. Chances are for people to not go ballistic you might need to issue refunds so i doubt it would happen often if ever during the lifecycle of the gacha but it could happen and it has happened.
How much is Hoyo paying you Supah? Or is it Hypergryph so they don't have to change their awful approach?
Reminds me of elsword balance patches. When new class/ascension is so ridiculously broken, they get a balance patch, so now they can bite the dust in peace. I think Mad Paradox was so broken he got a nerf the day after release.
8:36 blud found a new target for his loli collection in the basement
Good video overall. For module system in AK, its not exactly a balance patch equivalent but is supposed to replace them with more effort than "just tweaking some numbers" and less effort than "making an entire game mode to shine the lower tier characters".
I also think aboht why some modules are dogsh*t. They might be because if they began improving every character through modules, then people will slowly began perceiving them as THE balance patches for weaker characters. By being inconsistent they don't let that image for for the modules.
I also think what they might be doing multiple modules for.
1) obviously, different modules give different effects so they have uses in different situations
2) this is my opinion but giving multiple modules can allow them to improve a character slowly rather than suddenly giving a single strongest module and calling it a day.
3) game mode exclusive modules (recently announced) might also serve the purpose you said in the last part of your video, for eg, phantom's new IS exclusive module makes him a good unit but you can't use them outside the game mode itself. So people may give him the chance to shine even though hes been powercrept for a long time now.
I'm sorry if the post was too long. But i wanted to get my thoughts about this videos out and clear.
Tfw Arknights did balance changes exactly five times (Ch'en S2, Leizi animation change, Brawler stat buffs, Infamous Chalter patch, Abjuers trait change) and only one of them sparked drama (guess which one) because it was not enough. Sadly now they realised they can sell those "balance" patches as modules....
I completely agree. Marvel Snap is one such game that confirms your point: balance patches, especially when frequent and disruptive, completely destroy any value characters (cards) may hold in the eyes of the players. Spending your hard earned currency to get a Tier0 card just to see it nerfed beyond recognition in the next couple of weeks leaves a bitter taste in your mouth.
FGO kinda buffs units with interludes and strengthening quests, never fully fixes a unit but definitely makes them better. Shift up buffed Red Hood within 2 days of her release upon community feedback (and internal metrics) to make her the best unit in the game.
buffing can work if done quicky enough but nerfs will always cause backlash from those that pulled for the character and spent real money on it.
I know that the points of your video have been common consensus for a lot of Gacha games for a while now, but I’m starting to question if they’re truly an accurate sentiment or if we are all yet again being scammed. For example a huge negative consequence of no balance changes is that powercreep becomes inevitable: eventually, the designers will run out of new ideas, and the only option for new characters becomes retreading existing ideas but with a higher power. This also means that to an extent buffs often do exist in Gacha games, but in the worst possible way for the consumer. You like siege but wish she could keep up in the meta? Don’t worry, we’re “buffing” her by taking her entire kit, upgrading it substantially and giving it to our newest character, Saga. Now in order to access your newly buffed siege, you have to pull for a completely different character.
On the other hand, the feel-bad example you gave of if balance changes did exist might not be the case whatsoever in practice. If characters got frequently changed to the point where either every character is balanced or the meta is in flux and everyone has their time in the sun, players won’t have any reason to pull for any characters other than personally liking their design, personality, or playstyle. It’s very possible that a gacha with balance patches will find that the only change is players will feel less pressured to get characters they don’t necessarily like.
Finally, achieving a state where every option is balanced is significantly easier in a PvE game, which almost all successful Gachas are.
So in a gacha game im playing that has similar gameplay to AK, they nerfed a very powerful hero when he was pretty ruling over evey contwnt ever and those who dont have him has no hope againts those that has it. Specially because they have PVP arena. With the nerf they also had an reset hero event where everything you invested to the hero while be given back. Now the hero is OK, still strong but not OP as before. Game is Watcher of Realms if you're interested.
Honestly, looking at a gacha game that "buffed units" (Dokkan battle) by giving extra steps to become good units again seems a good concept since for some special stages, getting rewards in the way, you get an OLD unit updated to match newer units (imagine Frostleaf Skill 1 but instead of slowing she deals more attack and makes enemy unable to move for a bit) balancing new units wouldn't be a great idea as you mentioned, but the old units that are at the trash bottom of your account which might went through a few banners to get a new buff on skills or stuff ain't that bad.
And if someone is bold enough to tell me that's like modules so it doesn't count there was a unit Who actually got buffed which is Goku black rose Phy
sunshower crying hard in the back of the bus
He got his time in canto 6
POTENTIAL MAN
Potential Man has become MAN in canto 6
POTENTIAL MAN MENTIONED
TLDR: if u do any of them, the chinese players can and will report u to the ccp
also, genshin has made characters really good after updates
prime examples are electro units when dendro got added, they basically became cracked
and there are times where characters like kazuha and kokomi were seen as awful but their true value came out after the banner and people regretted it.
buffing isnt good simply because theyd be reported to the ccp if they even try doing so, the chinese players are just that sensitive. Heck they fucking hired a hitman because a playable man was added into HI3
One of the Supah vids actually bringing a relevant topic and reasonably explaining opinion (mostly facts ngl) on the matter, well done
>tldr: mihoyo
We have Arknights (modules), Alchemy stars (equipment upgrade & some random buffs if they just feel like it), PGR (leap system). Reverse 1999 is planning on buffing older characters like Lilya & Druvis from launch or Shamane from 1.3 in some way. Theres a bunch of game(s) devs that don't completely disregard their fanbase...
The way HSR is making certain characters relevant again also isn't really good, because it doesn't affect the actually bad characters (AOE characters just didn't have a role in most content till PF but they're still quite bad outside of PF rn while Blast characters will still do fine and can be really good outside of PF). Characters like Yanqing (not like I actually care about him, but it's the prime example) are never gonna be good because of poor design and Hoyo being Hoyo, only giving out the bare minimum.
AS is obviously also just a way to sell the new break meta with ridiculously high HP pools (they even doubled the health in MoC from one season to the other because we're getting immensely stronger characters now lol).
Reverse have lots lots of character need helps.
Moat of them are waste of investment, due to how quick they become obsolete.
The game design only having 4 unit in a party, with damage oriented favoritism does not help.
All 4* and lower unit is now garbage by this point of time.
Modules and leap system is just additional resource grind. I'm pretty sure what supah meant in the video is buffs like the chain caster rework on arknights
its a poor example from Supah because he only showcases the solution from HSR when game like FGO have done it long ago
@@DisIngRaM Yeah maybe they'll adress that. Tho I don't expect the 3rd lowest rarity (2nd if you don't count the two gimmick 2stars) in the game to carry me through all content for years to come anyway...
Also "most of them are a waste of investment, due to how quickly they become obsolete" is just wrong (I assume this is focusing on 5stars and 6stars).
Many 5stars are viable, even 3star gimmicks can come in clutch on raids oddly enough, and 6stars might get outclassed, but does that matter if it's purely PvE and everyone can clear all content anyway? Spend away if you need bigger numbers or simply don't. It's also only been a year and yet we have various interesting team compositions available that don't necessarily clash with each other and power creep the other. Also constantly accessible through the actually sane gacha system (Arknights-ish coded gacha should be the absolute standard, not Hoyo and this one is pretty close to AK).
@@frizzlup5072 (very long comment here sorry so tldr: video about Hoyo, not Gachas in general - very small sample size and vid isnt even 10 min. Module systems good for easy and efficient balancing if devs care about their players.)
Check what Arumi said. This was kinda just an excuse by Supah to complain about his sunk-cost fallacy with HSR before turning it into an HSR>Genshin war video because HSR is like slightly less worse so far.
I also don't think his "buffing sets a terrible precedent" makes much sense cuz...really? Making a decent/unusable character good/usable later directly is too much fomo for you (again, 100% limited banners on every banner shouldn't be the standard in the first place, this is just a video about Hoyo)?
He praises them adding PF as a new mode, but all this creates is more excuses for them to sell you new characters (PF just happens to be so mindlessly easy if you have AOE chars that it doesn't matter. Now they're released AS tho etc, etc.). And only straight up nerfing characters shouldn't be a thing anyway when people have already paid for them...looking at the latest Genshin patch lol.
And module systems shouldn't be overlooked as means of balancing as you make it out to be. They're the easiest and most cost-efficient way for them to continuously keep players happy and not lose out on too much money (cuz the real whales are gonna keep whaling anyway, and the old chars will usually not truly match up to the new chars either). Hoyo specifically just really doesn't care about the players' happiness and brainwash them into being happy over 1.5 pulls from livestream codes.
Personally, as a FGO player, I'm more than accustomed to waiting for 2+ years for my favorite character to get another rate-up banner. Roll in all the buffs you can muster, developers, I'LL WAIT!
I kind of doubt that most people roll for strength, given on how many people I see every new release in basically any gacha game, where people with no idea in gameplay or information from outside the game throw money at a new character, no matter how good or bad they are before even looking at any form of gameplay.
After that, usually the funniest stuff happens, by them throwing whatever resources at the new character they have floating around (usually not much), try out the half as leveled character as their usual characters and determine the character is bad, never to be looked at again. That is the main gacha crowd we are dealing with in the 'genre'.
Granblue Fantasy is the only gacha game I know that buffs characters. One of the best examples is Arulumaya an Earth support character. She went from mediocre to Top tier must have Support for Earth lineups.
Like many, MANY other commenters have said: gacha games CAN do balance patches just fine, buffing (or sometimes nerfing) certain units to keep up with newer ones and the meta, all in their own way. Arknights, Fate/Grand Order, Granblue Fantasy, Epic Seven, Alchemy Stars, Punishing Gray Raven... All those games, and many others, have proven that it can be done. You yourself should've known, SUPAH, with how Passenger's module upgrade turn him from a sh*t tier operator to one of the better ones (not the best, mind you, but he's definitely not sh*t anymore).
As for the problems you pointed out--of players malding when buffs/nerfs are added--one of the possible solutions to it is pretty simple: just release the buffs right before, or during, the unit's rerun banner. That way, players don't really feel bad, because if the buffs end up propelling the unit to top-tier meta status, they can just pull the unit on said banner--which, in turn, will boost the sales on that banner, generating more money for the devs/publishers. It's a win-win, don't you think? And in my opinion, it's definitely better than releasing game mode(s) specifically made for those units like HSR does, because at the end of the day, said units are still going to be bad pretty much anywhere else, and unless players are given enough incentives to keep playing those new game mode(s), they're not going to even try it out more than once or twice.
The thing is the module is a thing you snap on to the character and not a change to the character directly, effectively being an opt-in balance patch for each player to decide if and when they want to apply it. China and I believe Japan both have a very strict set of consumer protection laws related to devaluing something that's already been purchased (I believe the doing of Apple removing features from their phones via update) and treat gatcha characters as purchased goods, so companies need exceptional circumstances (like Genshin customers going to the party suggesting Zhongli being weak was _unpatriotic_ ) to make changes.
@@CruelestChris I mean, it's not a particularly bad thing if it's an opt-in balance patch, no? It's not like you'll suddenly use the characters five times more often just because they get it... Okay, maybe you will do it to one or two, but it's not like you'll do it on ALL of them.
As for the consumer protection laws thing, this is actually the first time I've heard of them. Can you elaborate more on that? I'm interested.
there was a story about kal'tsit was apparently so broken during her initial release they had to pull her and rebalance her. i dont know if it was a CN release or some kind of beta, but a beta of some kind would be very useful to root out "unintended behavior" before a character is released. it could give an early look at upcoming characters with the knowledge ahead of time that they might be adjusted before release, and also give CN players a heads up on who might come next in general
Idk for your video balance patch seems to make a F tier character into a A tier and nerf a X tier character into a B tier but a lot off people want it a very slight increase/decrease in power, from 1-2 tiers max, primarly in endgame content
Imo "Balance Patches" shouldn't exist outside of games with PvP aspects, be it gacha or not.
The art of Buffing is made so that a character identity is reinforced while putting them on par with current standarts.
As for Nerfing it's something that has no purpose on a single-player enviroment, the Neuvilette nerf wouldn't change a thing because Genshin doesn't have a PvP system, so it's not like you'd have 2 players pick Neuvi and have a Beyblade fight.
The one example I can give is of Epic 7, a game I regard as one of the most well balanced gachas I've ever played.
Their balance patches consists of buff that makes units excel better at the enviroment they live be it PvP or PvE, and nerfs that happen exclusively when they make a fucky wucky and accidentally give some old granny a one shot ability, nerfs are rare because of how every unit has at least 5 counters, but they can still happen and the community are more often glad than not.
As for the scam, the solution is simple and an inherit part of gachas.
Just. Rerun.
Everytime a character gets updated they either rerun or get featured through an assortment of different methods.
If you alredy had the character, now you can try them again, and if you don't you have a chance to attain it again.
That said, most gacha games can't do "Balance Patches" because that includes nerfs on a singleplayer game, however they CAN do "Character Adjustments/Rework".
Though not everygame may need this.
Arknights has a weird aspect of having so that every unit is playable, some maybe be stronger than others but overall you can use anything almost anywhere.
HSR has the interesting aspect of having gamemodes that make use of unused characters, but it's not like that works for everyone.
Looking at you Seele.
There's also Genshin which really shouldn't need any changes but their racial profiling made so that certain units are literally unplayable, so they gotta sort that out first.
I don't agree with the arguments presented given Hoyo games. To roll for the top meta characters its important for PvP, but if more character CAN clear the end game well, it gives a better chance that every pull, even not well thought out ones, good.
But THAT is the point, if you don't have self control, you will just pull, and not "invest" , therefore probably needing to spend.
It's ALWAYS money.
As someone who used to roll for characters and didn't really want to meta build, the buff scenario sounds like heaven.
FGO: so here another buff for cu chulainn and Arthuria
Yup, harsh reality. Maybe its for better that our Vigil stays with 2 DP per skill activation 🙏
From observing gatcha marketing it seems like there is either a type of player who will download a game just to try and get an overpowered unit OR marketers for gatcha games think that aforementioned group of players exist, so it seems like none of them are that interested in being carefully balanced even outside of the market forces you describe here.
Dislyte just buffed quite a few old units, some of the buffs drastically changing their kits, making them either keep up with the modern units or give them a new niche.
Does the video contain a secret message? We have to find out where SUPAH is held captive by Vigna and rescue him.
I do agree that nerfing someone people already pulled for is essentially a scam and inherently a terrible decision. However, not with buffs.
Yes, now whatever you wish to pull for (or skip) you know that it CAN get better in the future, and thus makes it harder to gauge the actual value of pulling for that character. But "not knowing what to pull for because anyone could get buffed", it's like... Just pull for what's actually better for you at the moment. Pulling based on the chance that they MIGHT get better is entirely on you, and the buff only incentivizes people that _did_ want that character but feared that it wasn't good enough. What you pull for should be decided on the *minimum* value you get out of them, not on a theoretical maximum.
Really, the value you get *can* already fluctuate depending on what enemies come out (and does), so the "aw shucks I skipped them and now they're good" shouldn't be a reason.
So even with the questionable things they could do, buffs aren't inherently bad and are actually _more good than bad for the players,_ thus can't be prohibited "for our own good". Look at Passenger. He's good, and no one died because of it!
Having players swipe their cards to buy their own iron cavalry mecha gf, then capping her knees might also be illegal in the EU and Australia and most countries probably. You could make a case that if you bought the EZ win ticket, then it was nerfed to balance it, then it's no longer what you purchased. It could depend on the game's audience/community/context though.
More to the point it absolutely is illegal in China.
FGO and GBF are the oldest main stream gacha in the market, and ironically they're the only gachas trying to buff old units frequently
Marvel Snap does balance patches at least once a month so yeah, feels awful to see cards get buffed or nerfed after people got or skipped them. Although its not a gacha, it's impossible to get every good card without spending
The way supah said gauge at 4:07 gives me life
Actually, I do think some of this is a stretch...kinda. Limbus peeps liked the buffs to Philclair, but that was more an oversight from Pmoon only testing him with a team that supported sp lowering (Having kromer faust). Now, Pmoon does nerf enemy fights, and while most people don't like that, as pmoon fans are masochists, I do think there has to be some level of accessibility for a gacha game and its totally understandable why pmoon would want the game to be easier for the sake of gacha fans coming in.
Wait I forgot about the Ringsang "nerf" that made him not work in Blurn anymore lmao.
I'm one of those weirdos that pull for whatever looks cool/good, so i wouldn't mind some buffs honestly lmao
I agree on the nerfs, not really convinced on the buffs
What difference does it make a straight up buff VS a "buff in retrospect" like Hoyoverse likes to do?
Herta and Himeko weren't directly buffed, but the environment changed and they got an indirect power-up.
So your evaluation of their strenght changes anyways, as established.
If the unit goes from trash to OP, don't you feel like you should've pulled regardless of the directness/indirectness of the buff?
Balance patches can be abused by the developers and can come out on a whim. "Retroactive" buffs like Pure Fiction require a lot more work to fit into the game properly and are far less likely to come out of nowhere or be used maliciously.
@@SUPAH_SUPAH_SUPAH That's sensible
You familiar with Epic 7? They nerfed a few characters once and the blowback was so bad it took them several years and a single character (Hwayoung) warping the meta extremely badly before they nerfed a character again. They do a decent amount of buffs though, a character that had been a memetic loser for years (ML Haste) just got turned into a powerhouse. It's a PvP driven game though, which I think makes things a bit different. Instead of coping that "my waifu Siege IS good if you only do x and y and z to make her work" people instead say "this character has been trash for ages, why don't you fix them) There's also several cases where a new unit comes out and everyone says "this trash unit will obviously be buffed in six months". Sometimes they're right, sometimes they aren't. Fun!
The balance patches can be rough but they also feel necessary to keep the meta fresh without just requiring you to pull every single new unit.
Blink twice if you are being held at gun point by Silvergun
It is gonna sound weird but this video fits crossout exactly aswell. You work hard, grind hard for a very valueable gun and when you get it. They drops that from the tower.
Well, I think I understood these "investment", "money grab purpose" and "scam" things, but still, regarding Arknights I love this game and I wish it was more balance-oriented. Afterall, they did buff chain-casters. I dont want game having nor Braindead OP, nor purposeless chars, just make them viable
Maybe you can relrase balance patches for 6 stars right when their banner re-runs or they become available in the cert shop so that at least the player decides if they want to roll for them or save up
I'm on the side of only buffing characters and never nerfing. Unless your game has PvP like Epic7.
Dokkan and FGO is a prime example of how to buff old irrelevant units. They either make them strong enough to keep up with the current contents. Or give them new unique role to play in a certain team comp. It helps F2P who has those old units but doesn't want to summon for the new shiny ones. It gives paying players new toys/tools to play with. It gives waifu/husbando hunters a reason to use those old characters that may not be strong but have design that they like. It's a win-win on all sides.
Epic seven once had to nerf some characters and to make up for it gave all the resources spent on the character back and the ability to trade the nerfed character with another one, since then we never got another nerf
We still have balance patches, most suck and when they don't people still complain since the unit that was memed before and everyone was skipping now is good and beating everyone's ass.
What makes it worse for e7 is that it has pvp and it's the major focus of the game.
I can't even imagine what sort of gamemode or chapter gimmick Hypergryph could implement to drag Vigil from F-tier to S-tier considering other operators would still exist.
On Arknights the Buff players are coping for was on modules now which either good or bad/underwhelming/expensive resources to achieve that they make you not to get it or unnecessary.
NGL it's more of a "why genshin doesn't do balance patches" and not gacha games in general. Determining why and why not gacha games should do balance patches based on one of the worst gacha system out there isn't healthy as plenty of other gacha games have done balance patches (actual direct adjustment rather than ingame systems): E7, counterside, dislyte, Nikke, dokkan, HI3 way back, Brown dust 1 and 2, guardian tales, eversoul, afk, etc. Even if you argue that those have PVP on them, PVE exclusive gachas also have done balance patches: Limbus, AL, even AK.
In addition, I disagree with your dissection of balance patches and "new additions". It's very naive to think that companies preferring to add modules/relic sets/ retrofit anything but timesink and/or money.
Also people will "complain less" and "the chance they'll be used maliciously is far less likely" ??
Brother everytime the talk of module in AK comes up, there's a high chance that you complain that we were given very few mats to actually give our units the modules. Not to mention that these new timesink bring in additional opportunity cost of which units that you actually want to improve upon rather than a balance patch instantly making all the units good. If I didn't google "is siege's module good", i'd probably quit the game due to how asinine they treat her. Instead i could be happier in giving good modules to other operator. Also you know, the big elephant in the room? Selling mats for the "new additions" for real money?
I mean it's not even making the solution of your example problem that hard. Just rerun them :v
is nekomata the worst s rank in zzz? i hope she age better than yangqing and bailu from hsr.
Eversoul thankfully uses both new content to give under performing units a place to shine as well as simply buffing charcaters from time to time. They dont have much of the truely limited type units to contend with so the feeling of loss on not having a particular unit isnt as bad I suppose.
I'd say nerfing is a bit too risky, but buffing is a good move.
There are some underwhelming characters that, due to being released so long ago, most players already own (ex: Earthspirit, Frostleaf, Siege, Eunectes, a significant portion of the 5-stars, etc.). People who would like those characters to be further buffed are a vocal majority.
I suspect the main reason buffs don't happen anymore is because of bureaucracy. The hierarchy in big companies foster a culture of risk-aversion, especially towards changing things that have shown to work well for a long time.
Every suggestion must be sent through and approved by so many people that no one can be blamed if it fails. And since balance patches are risky and they're already providing buffs in a safer way, often times there's not enough incentive to convince everyone involved that it's worth the trouble to push this idea.