Why games can't abandon the HUD
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- Опубликовано: 22 июл 2020
- Press F is more than just a great meme; it also proves that immersion is a complicated idea. Getting rid of UIs might seem like a solution, but there's way more to it (despite what The Last of Us 2, God of War, and Breath of the Wild might suggest.)
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I enjoy that Jenna clearly set out to make a "clunky 2000s UI kicks ass" video and being told "no jenna it doesn't" by professionals was not going to stop her!
Hearthstone's UI is a modern masterpiece so I think she's on the right side here
I like that she stuck to her guns and did the hw - I think she's completely right too, dead space's UI is amazing and deserves accreditation and emulation in future projects.
You can't run a triple A title these days without tons and tons and TONS of bloat. GTA V? Loading time nightmares. MMO's? Incredible UI bloat. Modern warfare games both shine and are the biggest offenders, but are worth studying for that reason for having at once amazingly immersive tools like drones and air support, but at the same time sacrificing major gameplay elements. Battlefield letting you run a "commander" on a mobile setup was genius for big games, letting someone command a UI or RTS style game with real players? Priceless.
Savage 2 is a game whose hud deserves credit --- we're at the point now where cross-genre games are becoming a big deal, and Hud's becoming more and more important, not just for an individual player, but multiple players working in unison.
We're at a point where we're going to see VR players who need players to run Hud's for them, and it's gonna be crazy, games like "Don't Talk and Nobody Explodes" are genius level hud design.
She's figurin' it out.
Ah nostalgia.
It does kick ass doe.
If you don't think Baroque's UI is the hottest shit, you have not lived.
i think she is right and the "experts" are wrong on this one. too many games have bad UI. breath of the wild's menus are so trash and so much of the "immersion" is BS and them sacrificing functionality for nothing only makes the game worse. HUDs don't take the immersion away, bad game design and creation does. if a tacky scene is the focus no matter how much nothing you show it doesn't make the awkwardly acted trash scene better. the best UI, HUDs and menus are the ones that don't hide, but are so good they disappear in your mind and become a natural part of things. they don't have to be invisible, sometimes it is even better that they are vibrant.
The worst thing about "Press F" is that semi-robotic "You are experiencing human emotion now, feel free to rejoice" feel to it
In retrospect, wouldn't it have been better design to just immediately let the player know they have free camera control at that point and just let them approach the coffin to pay respects?
I agree that UI elements can be a bit patronizing to the user sometimes, a tiny dot on the coffin would've been indicator enough
That's why the beginning of Portal 2 is so amusing.
"... the concept of flat designs, which is precisely as exciting as it sounds." I guess the Polygon graphics department won't be on speaking terms with Jenna after this video.
Oh, it's a thing? I thought Microsoft was just taking their "eat your own dogfood" ethos to the extreme by insisting on doing their UI graphics in MS Paint. Seriously though, I'm sick of trying to figure out where one window ends and another begins because they are all just flat and mostly similar colors.
From that day onwards Jenna would regularly find minimalist, flat turds on her desk.
Designator they cannot use this revenge, as it would be skeuomorphic, and therefore enjoyable to Jenna. She is a master and shaped her attack like a shield ˆ-ˆ
@@Libriothecaire I honestly don't know if that is an attack on Jenna, a witty comment on the issue at hand, or something completely different.
Well played, sir or madam.
She's right though!!!
The thing that really used to bother me was achievements popping up during sensitive moments
truly. every single fight in shadow of the colossus ends like
wanda: i have senselessly taken the life of a being who has lived peacefully for centuries, and my monstrous actions are slowly destroying my body. not only am i stricken with grief, but searing pain fills every fiber of m-
popup: DING DING DING!! BIG FUCKING STONE IDIOT ABSOLUTELY DEMOLISHED!!!!! LETS GO GAMERS!!!!!
There was a single good instance of that though in Portal 2. The Part Where He Kills You.
The one that really bugged me until I got around to turning it off was how in PS4 games often the most plot-significant moments are interrupted by a little pop-up in the corner saying "entering a blocked scene," they can be turned off but took me forever to get around to it since every time it was fresh on my mind I by definition didn't want to interrupt the moment to go mess with system settings...
orangesilver8 portal 2 has no real flaws so obviously it’s exempt
i always enjoyed the moment after a halo 3 level and after the screen fades to black, just after the right amount of seconds the achievement pops up. i don't know if that timing was intentional but i always found it extremely satisfying.
Oh to be a HUD sitting on top of a game like a fat friendly beetle on a leaf
the dream
I love this sentiment
Pure Poetry
As snug as a bug in a hud
To juste burn the pixels on my TV screen.
While BDG definitely makes some bangers for this channel, Jenna's game analysis videos are my platonic ideal of what games journalism can be. She can meme, she can explain design concepts, and she can slip in bits of her personality and life all while making a really good argument and elevating hard work that people are doing.
Agreed, her importance on this channel is very understated.
She and Clayton are definitely the best at the journalism parts of Polygon, but I'd argue that bdg wasn't hired for that purpose. His primary series is pretty much entirely comedic.
So yeah, I agree with you, I just think bdg wasn't never intended to fit the platonic idea of game journalism
Yeah this was super well-done. Came for the silly perfect gamer vid, stayed for the passionate (but balanced!) defense of HUDs
Big agree! I've just finally started see her videos on my feed, and I feel like I need more!
AGREE all of them have really unique styles of reporting. the yt channel content is really carrying polygon
This is so...well researched? Like seriously I had no idea there were this many scholarly articles written about the subject and Jenna referenced them with ease and then summed up everything really well...really good video.
Yep, that’s because UI/UX is really important in computing, it’s literally how you see, use, and interface with something, it can make or break an application.
In Halo, we have what's called The Blind Skull, which fully turns off the HUD, but it doesn't really make the player more immersed, just makes you wasteful with ammunition
Why would it make you wasteful with ammo? It's not like reloading your clip throws away the old one in Halo.
@@SilverZephyr09/videos A lot of people rely on the crosshair to hit targets and removing it completely throws off their aim entirely, resulting in wasted ammo.
randomperson fair enough
Damn bro you everywhere you an active man on RUclips ;)
@@samgittins5990 Right? Lol He is everywhere, even had time to shave his mustache
Piss tech, Dad based storytelling, Straight kicking it in the chill station... This video has so much going for it
Also the fat friendly beetle on a leaf
Don't forget bait and Nintendo Switch.
I unironically always loved the Titanfall 2 “press to time travel” button. Just that moment of “what was that” immediately followed by an instant explanation that you’re traveling through gosh dang time! That level was so cool.
Underrated campaign and that was one of the cooler parts IMO. Past & Present Parkour Perfection
It's just the best button prompt ever. like "yeah, we have time travel, no biggie, just push a button"
Which, in fairness, might be how the protag feels then and there, having a time machine that fits in his pocket.
I'm so glad that prompt made it into the video. It's the perfect antithesis to "press F to pay respects".
Not for nothing did that represent Flow!
That moment is probably the fastest "this gonna be good" turnaround I've ever seen in a game.
"This is gonna be fun!" And not even a full second later: "This is fun!"
in DOOM: Eternal, the weapons are floating & slowly rotating before you pick them up. this isn’t part of the UI or the HUD, but _i really like how videogamey it is_
S A M E. Initially I was turned off by it, but by the chaingun pickup I was totally sold on how "classic" it felt (same with the bobbing ? For secrets)
DOOM Eternal is as retro as a video game can get without being retro. It has all the concepts and philosophies of a 90s game, while still being modern enough to be approachable and held up to the standards that entails.
@@luigimcdingle1951 it's hard for a lot of us nowadays to accept it (due to how invested we are in the legitimacy of the tropes of the present, and that they won't seem stupid or weird as soon as we have new tropes... like how sepiatone cover shooters went almost instantaneously from being GAMES ARE ART NOW, LIKE CINEMA to Wow, these games have no artistry to them whatsoever, they're all the same skinhead super-soldier man being taught how to crouch within the first two minutes of gameplay) but i think, in reality, what we typically describe as Retro As You Can Get Without Being Retro, With The Concerningly-Nitpicky Care For Detail That Gamers Always Have But Gamedevs Only Had Before The Year 2004 As Well As The Newly-Possible Conveniences Of Modern Games (But Only The Ones Gamers Actually Like, So The Gamedevs Don't Waste Precious Previous Labor On Stuff That Their Publisher Just THINKS Gamers Want Out Of Reverse-Ageist Delusion) So It Genuinely Has The Best Of Both Worlds is actually just, well... Good Quality.
like, it doesn't matter the genre, the aesthetic, the level of attempted realism or anything.... if you want your videogame to have the best of both worlds, and thats the only way to do it in the game industry, than why wouldn't you do that????? if the capabilities of the old game industry had all this Goodness, and we changed all that to get this NEW Goodness but had to sacrifice our ability to create the old Goodness to do so, then it makes mathematical fucken sense that games like DOOM: Eternal are _twice as good_ as games that *don't* have the best (goodness) of both worlds simply by being as ultra-gorgeous as most other FPS' are these days while _ALSO_ having the two things they lack... *controls as tight as the once-revered Miyamoto Touch, and music as rockin' as RockMan himself*
Alejandro Arévalo extremely reggie fils-aime voice: If It Won’t Rip And Tear, Why Bother?
"known colloquially as 'straight kickin' it in the chill-station' "
Hell yes.
One of my favourite Jenna moments 9:45
I legitimately laughed for like 5 minutes at "dad-driven" storytelling
Why do you think Mario only mentions his Mama (mia) but never his Papa (mia)?
@@claytonandres1194 much to think about
I came here to say this but knew in my heart it had already been said
@@claytonandres1194 *Papa (pia)
@@claytonandres1194 not to be Italian on main but it would be mio for his papà
“You’d better believe that piss technology is coming” I feel threatened. Thanks Jenna!
Threatened with a good time, maybe.
really enjoy the footage of a stressed-out gamer under the title "COGNITIVE LOAD" like whoa. i get you
Interesting example: I was playing Ghost of Tsushima and my partner watched me run up to a cliff and climb it. She asked why the cliff looked bloody and weird. I hadn't really paid it much mind because I am so used to games coloring climbable spots I just knew it was a UI element and didn't try to justify it as part of the actual world. Even though the developers went through lengths to make it recognizable but also blend in (as just iron in the cliff or something).
The "blindingly obvious cliff face/wall run area" texture wasn't even pioneered by GoT; that was from ye olde days of Prince of Persia: Sands of Time. In that game's case, it made plenty of sense because you were exploring ruins, so areas of the wall having been scraped away is not that far away from reality.
It's a better idea than what Horizon: Zero Dawn did with the brightly-colored handholds and tightropes all strewn across their post-post-apocalyptic world.
@@romxxii yup! I was referring to my knowledge of the mechanic from previous games. Pretty much every game with climbing using them
Everytime jenna says HUD in that way I shed a tear of gratitude
press T to shed tear
t
Right!
@@ekg793 T
HUHHD
Everyone: diegetic
Jenna: DEE-igetic
Thank you, I began doubting myself
Jenna is just a peaceful soul, she doesn’t like things to die ☠️
Yes. Thank you. Couldn't finish the video. :/
@@jakemartins949 Meh. Someone mispronouncing something like that usually means they've only ever seen the word in writing and picked up by that way. See: basically anyone who read the word genre before hearing it.
It goes the opposite way with people who've only ever heard a word and have no idea how it's spelled. If you know the intent you can extend a some level of understanding for the circumstances that got them to that point. You don't know what you don't know.
@@Pipsqeakers I used to pronounce the g in "paradigm."
Interesting. It must be because of my clutter blindness from my ADHD, but I don't generally find UI breaking my immersion. It fades away as non-novel information, and the changing info it is communicating reaches something closer to the psychic imparting devs are trying for. Although it does mean that situation UI, while they're useful for telling me "hey this thing is relevant right now", is more immersion breaking because it's novel stimuli that never sticks around long enough to fade away.
Shit, that's a good way to put it
Hard agree. I'm usually more distracted by noticing the hud vanish (sometimes for the same reasons that Jenna mentioned Ellie's comments bothering her) or needing to figure out how to make an element come back so I can check it than I ever was by the persistent HUD.
I have adhd and I feel this lol
Extreme agreement. The only things that should change in my field of vision are threats or opportunities - not UIs. UIs moving around on their own are very disruptive for me.
I never realized that 1)other people feel this way and 2)my ADHD is very likely to blame
Also, I think it's odd that we only seem to have such reductive views about "immersion" when it comes to films and comic books. Comic books convey huge amounts of information about tone and character's emotions through non-diegetic means, such as layouts and speech bubbles, and books can be immersive despite having really shitty graphics most of the time.
Books are a perfect example of the immersion fallacy. A good book will absolutely transport you into the narrative and make you feel like you're living it, but there are no "realistic graphics" or any other sensory cues involved.
"That piss-tech is coming" is such a Pat line
it's like working at polygon means you're contractually obligated to mention piss a given amount of times
I can HEAR him saying it. I can also remember Jenna saying it. Now I'm thinking of them saying it at the same time. Hmm.
You mean the Piss Constable himself?
How can we forget the piss constable
Pat is listed as a story editor for the video so it may very well be.
persona 5 is a great example of how UI can also enhance the player's experience without being super immersive or diagetic. all of the menus feel sleek and stylish, particularly the combat prompts. they provide vital information, and they blend with the game's aesthetic so seamlessly that you never get tired of seeing them there, even when you've played for 100h and know the controls like the back of your hand. it fits with the style of the game so perfectly that it just works to enhance the immersion.
seems like they paid attention to the UI more than the story and gameplay in that game sadly
About Isaac's spine- health display: I originally agreed, why can't he see his own health display? But... of course Isaac isn't meant to see it. He doesn't need it. In-universe he has the sensory perception to know how good or bad he feels physically.
Plus, he has a helmet. Say he has a second health readout and oxygen timer inside the helmet and everything is fine.
Bless you Hideo Kojima, for making it easier for Jenna to work both aspects of Polygon content into this video - informative video essays, and piss jokes.
I hate the phrase "immersion breaking" because it is so personalized that it has no real meaning. If you've ever read a game's forum you will know that literally everything is immersion breaking to someone. Although HUDs can break immersion, they are valuable and to treat immersion as an ultimate goal at the expense of the valuable information a HUD provides can be equally detrimental to the game.
Finally, someone who also thinks that "immersion breaking" is bullshit. I don't care if the game reminds me that I'm playing a game and what I'm experiencing isn't real. Doesn't detract my enjoyment of it.
Would you say “immersion” is synonymous with “flow”?
@@tipnsunny2107 I wouldn't say immersion is synonymous with flow. The word immersion is much broader and farther ranging compared to flow which is a minor subset of immersion. For example weather effects to create a more believable game world lends itself to immersion but has nothing to do with flow.
People be like: OH MY GOOOOOD, MY IMMERSION WAS SHATTERED
Yeah, I don't know why immersion breaking is this big deal. I know I'm playing a game, and have nooo problem with it. Heck, some of those super immersive games with no HUDs make me nauseous (which I think Jenna did a whole video about too!). I'm looking at you Monster Hunter! (Also Monster Hunter, side bar, why are your graphics so realistic? I don't WANT to think about these animals I'm randomly murdering For Science! as real, thank you!)
I actually lowkey miss the "here's what all the buttons do" on screen era of HUD's.
Mostly when I go back to play a game after a long time and can't remember what *any* of the buttons do
I love love love the way botw does this with a little button next to the item when you use it
Ocarina of Time’s HUD is the BEST one.
That's why I think loading screens when you are starting the game should show the keyboard with what the keys do
I want to like this comment but it's currently at 69 likes so I can't break the spell. Therefore this comment shall represent my like. Funny, the same thing happened above with a comment that's currently at 420 likes.
The minimisation of the HUD and focus on immersion also largely increase the barrier to entry for new players. There are so many games that I would love to play but that I can't because at my current skill level they do not provide enough information to create an environment where my lack of experience and skill is being mitigated by the extra information the game is providing. It changes a game that could be difficult but playable to one that is infuriating, confusing and unplayable. I think few game studio currently consider the accesibility of their game design and the untapped market that they are excluding by focussing mainly on immersion.
Yes, yes, a million times yes! I am returning to gaming after years away, and often have a hard time keeping track of all the things I seem to be supposed to memorize in many games. I really like in-game-record-keeping where the player can refresh their memory of what cooking recipes or battle combos their avatar has already learned without leaving the game play.
Mhmmm it’s why I’m worried about cyberpunk cause the ammo counter is an incredibly ugly upgrade to your hand instead of a constant thing that exists in the game from a start.
Yes!! This is exactly my issue!! Modern AAA games seem to cater to lifelong, harcore gamers who started playing when HUDs were huge and unimmersive, and as those HUDs are phased out, devs don't take in to consideration that early HUDs allowed players to build reaction and dexterity skills when they didn't have to spend as much brain power thinking about their ammo or health or coins and whatnot. When a less experienced gamer enters a game and is only told once in the "tutorial" how to jump? It becomes a huge problem, because that action takes time to become reflexive.
ive actually found the opposite to be true for me. I tried to get into ESO but the menu UI is so complicated idk what to focus on. But I am someone who is more used to minimalistic UIs so maybe its just a sensory overload for me.
but can we talk about games like halo, where the HUD all in all is pretty traditional in its layout, but is explained diegetically as being the view from inside the helmet
I wanna see more future based games where the HUD is just the players POV of using an augmented reality device
"Press F to pay respects" can also be a very respectful meme.
Press F to Pay Respects is perhaps the only meme to have become less ironic and actually evolve to become more genuine over time.
@@gandalfthegrey1873 That might be because the internet itself is a UI
i love that in jenna’s videos i always learn a new and super obscure word
and what word was that in this video
@@Sheila_Chu skeuomorphism believe
I hope it wasn't "diegetic" considering how many times she pronounced it wrong.
'Shifting winds will always change the shape of dunes"
Idk why but that sounded really profound
Jenna has some great lines. I love the "Being in the cutting edge is an easy way to bleed" she said in a video predicting Nintendo's future games
Still not on the same level as brian david gilbert
@@dafire9634 What does this even mean? It's not a competition
@@dafire9634 a man of culture
I used to think "breaking immersion" wasn't a real thing until VR games started rendering the realtime shadows of the player's disembodied hands. *God* how that bothers me. Nothing to do with UI, but I feel the need to bring it up because it interrupts my flow *way* more than any UI could.
That's partially why I always install "full body" mods for VR games if they are available
Metroid Prime has one of my favorite UI’s of all time. The fact that Samus has a high tech visor that can overlay all these read outs certainly helps with immersion, too!
Honestly it worked the best because it’s in first person view. If it was in third, maybe it wouldn’t work as good
The virgin call of duty: press f to pay respects
The chad ghost of Tsushima: R2 to honor the dead
swipe down to pay respect
idk what game it's from but "press mouse to kiss your wife" is the chaddest QTE I've ever seen
@@homestuck_official that would be Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor, very Chad qte.
@@sophieloftus8746 Swiping down to bow is honestly one of my favorite parts of the game because it never tells you to do it, and when you do learn it, it becomes an actual part of the controls that you remember and don't need a pop-up for, and the swiping down motion is oddly similar to bowing, just with your thumb. Ik the last part is a stretch but I really like that control. Not to mention you can get a few extra bits of dialogue with it.
"Click to kiss your wife" isn't really a QTE, it's a stealth tutorial.
Polygon!!! I love these vids! For topics like this, a "Further Reading" section in the description would be dooooope!
Yeah it would be cool to see the articles she mentioned!
afaik you can read about the immersion fallacy and flow in Salen, K. & Zimmerman, E. (2003) Rules of Play: Game Design Fundamentals.
Cognitive load described by Celia Hodent (2015) GDC talk: ruclips.net/video/XIpDLa585ao/видео.html
The SCI model is described in Ermi, L. & Mäyrä, F. (2005). FUNDAMENTAL COMPONENTS OF THE GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE: ANALYSING IMMERSION”
@@birdeynamnam you rock!! Preciate it
i was just thinking the same thing!
agreed!
I love how you find the trashbin icon to be "darn cute"
This was wonderful and the way Jenna says "HUD" gives me life
I always say it like that. huuuuuud.
Her pronunciation of diegetic as dee-a-getic is really throwing me :p
"Ui's look the same these days, people aren't being creative with them"
*flies in and slaps Persona 5's menus and UI on her desk*
You mean like theeeeeeeeeeeeeeese???
It's a great example. I really disliked them, but I did appreciate how they didn't just confirm to the bland mold everyone else has. The same way I respect and like high fashion doing a meat dress while not ever wanting to wear one myself.
I was just thinking of that. And how persona 5’s talkboxes and stuff all subtly... uh, wiggle? As they’re on-screen, to make them feel more realistic.
But I do think that Persona 5’s UI works because they decided to go ALL IN on it. If they had only used it for some things, it probably wouldn’t have worked as well. But as they did it, I say it’s awesome.
that's exactly where my mind went! I really enjoyed that UI. It was nice to look at
I love that UI. So over the top like Joker. The devs actually had to tame it down lol because the original one was too much.
Persona has always been a huge exception
"The most appropriate dabbing animation" is a phrase that raises more questions than it answers.
I loved the Witcher 3, but I found myself always staring at the mini map to get to the next place which was pretty distracting. I will say the best UI I have seen was probably Persona 5 because it’s so stylish, and now ghost of Tsushima’s barebones UI is pretty awesome
I stare a lot at the Witcher 3 mini map too but I have difficulty navigating even with it and I'd never find half the enemy drops without it. A lot of people recommend turning it off but for me it's essential. Maybe some different design choices would've helped with that though, like improving the way the witcher sense highlights enemy drops.
I don't necessarily agree, or at least my opinion of "immersion" doesn't really align with the way the designer guests talk about it. No game is immersive via visual realism. Emotional investment and cohesion gets me "immersed" in a game world whether it have pixel graphics or top of the line 3D rendering. No game where I look over a characters shoulder or can only perform actions like 'shoot' and 'run' and 'crouch' will ever make me forget for a moment that I'm playing a game with a DualShock controller from my couch and not existing in their "immersive world". I'd rather know how much HP I have left than just see my vision go red in order to "immerse me in realism".
POLYGON! You had the PERFECT opportunity to actually have a quick-time event. If you edited the video to be just a couple of seconds shorter, and said "press 8 to not curse," the video would skip past the curse and onto the normal talking! Instead you just pressed x and nothing happens.
Hot take: I hate most “subtle” UI. I want to see my big ol’ health bar right there on the screen, top center or top left. Bottom right health bars are shitty and I hate them.
Gimme a minecraft-esque health bar. Immersion is for piss babies
TurquoiseCrow HUDS are for cucks
im totally with you. unless youre in a cutscene or something, i like having my data right in front of me!! maybe modern games could have a way to turn on/off the HUD for that kinda stuff?
@@Goldlucky13 but then they'd have to make two entire different sets of sprites! TWO!!
Botw pro hud :D
"fat friendly beetles resting on a leaf"
God Jenna this video is already perfect
read that as fat-friendly somehow and became very confused
Timestamp?
@@The_Jovian 1:40
@@sutirk thank you
@@catsonbrooms Body-positivity beetles are the best kind.
The real power move here would have been to put the "press _ to not swear" joke at a timestamp where the viewer could have pressed a button to skip ahead a few seconds seamlessly past the swear.
Yes, Jenna!! DRAG the unnecessarily complicated cooking in BOTW!!!
What’s additionally frustrating is that the most complicated dishes to make were arguably useless from a gameplay perspective. Why would I bother trying to remember how to make a Honey Crepe when all I need are durians and bananas?
The game has easy cooking if you only care about stats: mighty for attack, hearty for healing, etc. but I can see where she came from.
I feel like the lack of a cookbook is less about immersion and more about.....difficulty, I guess? Idk what to call it, but I think its more of a "If you want good foods, /you've/ gotta remember the correct ingredients". If Link had a cookbook in the Sheikah Slate, I wouldn't find that immersive breaking or overly clunky.
I wouldn't call the cooking complicated, as adding meat, salt, and mushrooms gives an edible meal, which is what I expect. It's more just......large. A ton of options and combinations. Finding the best one is kind of trial and error, and to look that up is totally valid.
I do think they should have a cookbook, maybe of past meals made and their stats, but I can see what they were going for.
It's my biggest most frequent complaint about the game. I want to make all the interesting dishes. If I was cooking at home and trying to make anything more complex than a sandwich, I would probably have a recipe up somewhere. Why can't Link?
Theres other improvements that I want for the cooking, and would love to not have to constantly open the pause menu over and over again. But the addition of a recipe book would make me reasonably happy. It doesnt even have to come stocked with every recipe in the game. It can just register them as you find them in books, or accidentally make them yourself.
i really don't understand how its complicated. sum up the hearts of all ingredients and double it for hearts restored, effects are written on the material, more than one different effect cancels both. sure there is a bit more to special recipes but those are generally not very useful. the general cooking mechanic follows a pretty simple set of rules, and once you figure them out (through experimenting and npc dialog) its pretty easy to remember.
(not to mention that most recipes use ingredients that make sense, or that making the player think during down time doesn't really pull from immersion).
The “press f to pay respects” problem is definitely a disconnect between the game’s mechanics/controls and its story. I’m not familiar with that game, but I’m guessing the main mechanics are for combat? If the player isn’t introduced to engaging mechanics for *doing* the story just like they’re doing the fighting, there’s always gonna be awkward bits where the game is giving you narrative stuff and isn’t equipped to make it interactive, but it’s still trying to. And I don’t think cutscenes have to be interactive anyway, at least not in the way of pushing buttons. If the player is emotionally invested, that’s enough. I don’t know why game devs are obsessed with giving you muscle control over things that can happen automatically. It seems like insecurity in trying to prove that story-driven games are more than just movies with play spliced in between scenes. But like... so what if they are?
the whole scene could have been solved by just playing the animation when you get close to the coffin, no hud or anything necessary
@@Megaranator I think it should have been “press f to stop paying respects,” with the control popup only appearing if you try to move or look away.
@@Megaranator yea I was just thinking why didnt the animation just play when u walked up to it. They could even make it so u can only walk in a linear path towards the coffin so no matter what way u tried to walk it would line up right with the coffin. And you wouldnt need to be prompted to walk because thats the players first instinct anyway.
Really good points but it focuses a lot on a specific type of game... ThatGameCompany has really good examples of flow -- including, appropriately, the game Flow -- and having nearly invisible UI (like Flower and Journey!). Compare that to aesthetic AF games like Persona 5, where the UI was so fun and poppy it became a meme in the opposite way of the infamous F, and other good semi-diagetic would be games like Bioshock and Prey.
Idk, just would have liked to see more counter-examples. This was one of my favorite topics in my college game classes.
That's awesome, thanks for sharing!
I was thinking along similar lines. When Jenna talks about "video games", she's really saying "AAA FPS's and third person action-adventure games." Over in strategy game land, skeuomorphic interfaces are alive and well, and I'm sure there are tons of other examples.
I was thinking of Journey too. Though there's something to be said about the simplicity of the game mechanics in That Game Company vs AAA FPS and adventure games. You don't need a pop-up map in Flow for example, because the game is essentially a series of flat, empty planes.
Which just reveals my game preferences. I'm not a fan of how increasingly complicated games are getting, even on the Switch, where they feel the need to use every single button on the controller for a different action.
@@josepholiveira2873 Yeah, agreed. Maybe she was wanting to focus just on games that archetypally [sic] have had more of a HUD but are going away from it and make some arguments for and against, with context.
It would be cool to see a video talking on the topic more broadly or from a different angle. I still really enjoyed this one. ^_^
Immersion or no immersion, I just need to know what I'm doing😂 Please give me a HUD. Do not trust me to track my health. I cannot count bullets myself
ah, yes. Serotonin. Thank you, Jenna
I love the Ghosts of Tsushima interface- wheels that only pop up when you want to interact with them, a swipe feature that simply confirms what you engaged but will also let you remind yourself by holding still, and doing away mostly with waypoint markers and arrows in favor of magic find that blows where you need to go. Even Haiku writing is made as peaceful as possible with simple circles over nature, allowing the words they inspire to materialize over them
Me: :(
Jenna: Huuuud
Me: :)
Less HUD means fewer opportunities means a less complex game. Modern AAA games are often even worse, because they mask the primitivity by a huge volume of stuff to do, but you never have to think about what you do, you just press whatever the game tells you to press. Persistent HUDs are good, they don't force feed you what you're supposed to do, they just remind you what your options are.
"Games don't have UI's anymore"
*DOOM Eternal steps out of a portal from 2005*
I love the final "Button Prompt" in Snake Eater. It never tells you you have to press a button to end the fight, you just realize it when nothing happens. Then you're just overcome with the gravity of the situation.
You press the button, the trigger is pulled, and you hear the gunshot. It's a masterpiece. 😭
this is an incredibly well done video - TIL deadspace used a particle system for their UI - lots of great info - keep UI's alive!
finally, i see the inside of jenna’s home so i may emulate and eventually become her
I want that shirt! It's fab. I wonder where she got it.
I literally just beat the final boss of Resident Evil Revelations, and during the whole playthrough I was thinking:
GIVE ME BACK MY HEALTH BAR!
(Blood splatters DECIDEDLY don't count)
The game was simply worse for trying to be more immersive.
I was just thinking that Resident Evil 2's limping character and holding his arm worked the same way as the health glowing bar of the Dead Space character
I do not miss the era of blood splattered, slowly growing red screens replacing health bars. It worked in portal, because you were really never supposed to be shot, and that's it.
Because their dads didn't hug them enough, and bait and Nintendo switch had me on the floor!
oh man, i wish you mentioned half life: alyx, cause the HUD in this game was phenomenal as well as immersion
Personally, I was so glad that the characters in the last of us part 2 just straight up said when there was nothing left to collect, or I would have been looking everywhere more than once just to make sure I didn't miss out on loot.
No joke I spent the first two mins of this vid goin dawg u better bring up dead space, imagine my stoke getting dunked on by Jenna straight up interviewing the Dead Space UI dev
To be fair about the Health bar on the back problem, it in universe it makes much more sense for co-worker/medics to read your health than for you to read your own health, after all you can actually feel it
Hearing Jenna pronounce diegetic "dee-egetic" is very cute...
I thought I was going crazy!
Why do people always want to point out when others pronounce words differently? It always seems either pompous or condescending.
@@Posdrums3 Maybe feeling like it's condescending is your own personal projection? Pointing out the correct way to pronounce something without being a jerk about it isn't inherently something you need to push against.
@@Posdrums3 There are right and wrong ways to pronounce words, and it bugs people.
@@730ways Sure, I get you. Maybe in other cultures pointing out something you think is wrong and saying "that's cute" isn't condescending.
You can hear her accent come out every time she says HUD
She just leaned into it, and I respect that.
The first game (AFAIK) that was HUD-free was "The gateaway", a GTA-like game happening in real London.
The game had no HUD whatsoever: no map, no ammo, no health bar. The game provided a physical copy of the map (yes, I played with the map opened on the side), the health level could be inferred from the movements and amount of blood coughing by the character, and you never knew how much ammo you had until you run out of it.
I liked a lot not having the HUD, as it felt really immersive even though was a 3rd person game. How knows how much ammo you have exactly when shooting? And who knows how much health you have left? It was very nice all together.
If games are designed to convey info without the hud well, then that’s just perfect. Not ones where you can’t really tell at all without the hud.
I’ve always wanted another game like gateaway. Maybe it would be cool if there was a feature where if you pressed a button, the character could say how much he has of something. So like”ah, only mag left” or “1 more round”, so you can still gain info without hud.
Trespasser did the same in 98, though not sure if the heart tattoo counts as pseudo UI.
Never even thought about the Dead Space health thing! The developer's explanation is a good catch there lol.
yo "kick back with a bottle of moxie." Moxie's the best!
100% thought this was going to be a video about the secret influence of the Department of Housing and Urban Development on video games. 🙃
Dr. Ben Carson: Pro Gamer
I’ve always thought that the solution to UI was easy.
-A modular element to allow people to choose where and when information is shown. This could be achieved in sliders or simple settings (choosing a how fast a health bar fades after combat or after you reach full health, and choosing if it is on the left, center, or top).
-Diegetic (dai-uh-je-tic I don’t know why you pronounced it that way) UI should be implemented whenever reasonably possible. For instance, in an RPG when you open up a “Journal/QuestLog,” have the character pull out a physical journal to flip through. The Last of Us II was a good example of how we could treat maps going forward, though it would need improvement.
-Scale Down information. Yes, we need access to lacking sensory data. Threat indicators, ammo, weapon name, stamina, etc... I personally like how - in a mod called SkyHUD for The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim - most of the UI fades when it isn’t used. Weapon data is shown when it’s drawn, and an arrow count is just a small number that appears when a bowstring is pulled back and stays for a few seconds after releasing (be it loosing the arrow or canceling the action).
-Ease of Access of information. In many open-world, exploration based games, there is a “compass” showing symbols of nearby locations as well as a quest indicator and cardinal directions. This is great to help with the flow of difficulty, but it should be toggleable or diegetic. The diegetic option would be to force you to - say - pick up your left hand when your weapons aren’t drawn to see a physical compass displaying cardinal directions and quest markers. The symbols for nearby Points of Interest really doesn’t flow well with the diegetic option, but a toggleable compass where you press a button for it to disappear until you press it again will help a lot.
-Finally, an option to remove Quest Markers in favour of detailed questlogs. Don’t tell me nothing regarding the quest and show me exactly where to go, tell me to go to a location and I have to find my way there. You can also implement a system where it notifies you when you are in the vicinity of what you need so you don’t overlook something that isn’t too visually “present.”
All in all: add a Modular Element into UI, make it Diegetic when reasonable, Scale Down vital information to not be obtrusive, give us the Ease of Access to important information in manner that can be toggled/chosen or that doesn’t openly hand information out, and give us Detailed Objectives to increase difficulty and thought-based immersion (if you aren’t made to think like you are in the game, you aren’t immersed). Applying all of these topics to the UI as well as gameplay elements and combining them with the lessons we’ve learned in gaming throughout the years will enrich our experiences in the new generation of gaming.
Here’s to the future of our medium.
I love that you cited Rules of Play here, it's one of the best design references out there not just for games but for any kind of artistic design.
straight kicking it in the chill station
I feel like Jenna is slowly trying to turn Polygon into an open-access repository for her scholarly articles on game design, and one day Elsevier is going to get scared and come shut the whole thing down.
Jenna needs to be in more videos like this, he voice works so well for these kind of videos it’s as if her voice was made for this.
What you said about having an in-game cookbook is my biggest beef with minimalistic design in games. The moment I have to pull out my phone to check anything that should be accessible in-game, all potential immersion is lost.
I am so here for more "complex dad-driven stories"
I lose immersion every time I get lost please let me have a HUD map I get lost irl I'm tired of getting lost in games ;-;
I lose immersion when I have a HUD map because I have good spacial awareness and if the map's there, I stare at that instead of the game world around me. Then again, maybe Assassin's Creed maps are too complicated for my baby brain, so I have to use them to navigate. I don't have this problem as much with Zelda titles.
Big mood, I have a terrible sense of direction and in games with no true HUD map (for example, games that split the difference with a HUD "radar") I frequently have to open the menu to check the map. Which is not immersive at all.
I mean, it's immersive in the sense that I can't find my way around without GPS whether it's a game or real life... very realistic...
Yeah, whoever I'm playing probably knows where they're going, they're just being controlled by a doofus with a memory that makes goldfish go "oh, you poor thing."
I think that's a problem of bad level design. If the scenery is memorable you don't need to check your map every 5 seconds because you can just say, "oh, there's that funky tree stump, I remember that".
Over dependence on maps is probably a sign of poor placement of landmarks in game levels. GTA's worlds are big but they have a lot of vivid landmarks and you can usually know what part of the map you are by looking at things around you.
Jenna, this is the first video of yours I’ve watched and it’s amazing! I’m hooked. I never thought I’d care about HUDs, but you’re really passionate about them and it’s super infectious! Keep doing what you’re doing.
I am really a big fan of this form of content that asks game design questions, its so much more interesting than like… just a game review channel. I hope polygon never stops!
Jenna is smart as a whip and also cute as a peach. She's a peachy whip.
Simp?
Simp.
Simp!
SIMP!
HES A SIMP!
HES A FUCKING SIMP!
HEY GUYS LOOK A SIMP!
*S I M P !*
@@nubberton1345 silence worm
@@nubberton1345 If you even look at a woman you're a simp. Don't want to be a simp? Blind yourself!
@Eoin Campbell
I've already removed my eyes.
As a precaution I'm also going to plug up my ears so I can't hear women.
@@nubberton1345 How do you read and write?
where is my flat design defense gang? i'll grant it definitely shouldn't be as widely applied as it is (hard to imagine a fantasy game where it makes sense) but, in say any sci-fi or aesthetically modern game (and especially in web design) it looks/feels cool as hell imo
Oh hell no. Maybe if you do something simple and only have one window open at a time. I have 50 things open at once and constantly close the wrong window or cant find the edge of one to drag when resizing, and the idiocy of disappearing scroll bars. Flat design is a giant step backwards in usability.
So glad that Jenna brought up the greatest button prompt in the history of video games. “Press L1 to time travel” really made me go ape shit when I first saw it
The little space-man has a HUD in his little helmet. The energy bar on his back is for the other little space-people to see he's okay
I have never heard someone pronounce diegetic that way before.
Dee-uh-jet-ic bad, dye-uh-jet-ic good
As a film student I was taken aback big time
@@ohmihi As a game student I was taken aback too!
Now I'm imagining Zeus flying around with a jetpack
"Jenna says HUUUUUUUUUUUUD for 15 minutes"
That's probably my biggest complaint with Sekiro. You have your own health bar, prosthetic tool, item, your posture bar, the bosses posture bar, and the bosses health and name. So much HUD for such a beautiful game. Such a shame...
@@suparibhau No, I don't wan't them to change anything about the HUD, since it's the only way the combat works, which is the best aspect of the game, but I still find it sad regardless.
The amount of detail and research and EFFORT that goes into making these videos is outstanding
I am OBSESSED with Jenna's collection of funky ties in the background
Hello fellow Jenna stans
Hello
good evening
shes way too good looking (and talented!), i cant even deal
G'morning
That argument/description of the state of HUD was so well put together! This video was really awesome
thank you for this video!! i am a student working on developing VR games and the most frustrating part by far is that VR practice is incredibly anti-UI, since the whole point is immersion. It's great to see a video talking about the benefits of UI rather than what it takes away!
All I want is a really good TRON RPG with fully-diegetic UI.
Polygon: That Piss Tech Is Coming
The game "Control" by Remedy has an in-game map that you can toggle but I never used it because I just found my way around naturally using the signage within the oldest house like any real life building. Pretty fun.
The SCI model makes a lot of sense to me. I've been fully immersed in SNES games, because while the Ultra Cinematic S was low, the challenge and imagination were enough to pull me in. Hell, sometimes it only takes imagination! Books have little to no challenge and there aren't ANY particle effects or fully rendered sad dad faces, and yet it's easy as hell to get lost in a good book.
Of course the ui guy would defend it. It’s literally his job.
Jenna is so powerful and competent and intelligent, truly the strongest Polygon and could easily consume the other Polygons in a laboratory setting.
She could overpower most any of them, but BDG could evade her with his dance moves.
This is a really fascinating video! It really crystallized why I simultaneously have a fondness for UIs but also find myself wanting less and less visible UIs in games recently!
Very informative and thought provoking! I liked the varying viewpoints of both interviewees. Excellent content, Jenna!
Ohh my god I laughed so hard everyone Jenna said “HUUUUD” lolol