Using Charm Person In DnD 5E
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
- Charm Person is one of the most misunderstood and misapplied spells in 5E. Learn how it really works and an easy method for roleplaying it effectively!
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Regarding the 'they know you charmed them' part, it could be used to some crafty advantage; depending on how magically savvy the target is, a disguise self or polymorph self could be used beforehand to frame another as the charmer. Unless the dm rules that charm person always designates who the caster is instead of who the caster appears to be, then you'd need gift of gab or modify memory or glibness.
I love your comment. I have an aberrant mind/djinn sorlock with the charlatan background, and uses his disguise kit to great effect when in town. Being in disguise is great for charm person, suggestion, and gaes.
@@matthewlaird5235 Ohh that's a fun combo, and entirely forgot about suggestion & gaes.
Not the secondary class I would've picked, I would've gone with illusionist wizard to double down on 'appearing' to tell the truth lol.
Don't forget the spell Alter Self. It is the best version of disguise self, in my opinion because your transformation is real, and upon physical inspection and contact with others your form is true. I will say though. It's concentration so if you get into a fight, there's a chance of your true identity being revealed.
@@LoreFoundry For sure but I was listing the mundane option in case a given player would rather pick up a simpler choice from a background instead of focusing more levels into it. Yeah concentration is tricky, not to mention it also limits what other spells you can cast, unless you take a particular feat from taldore (I'm probably mispelling that).
RAW, it says you. Not the person your appear to be
That being said, you could still sow confusion. But divination could rapidly get to the bottom of it
Thanks for the clear and concise breakdown. Well done content.
Knowing you've been Charmed is not the same as knowing who Charmed you. That seems like an interesting role playing/plot hook.
Your analogy to a past manipulative love interest is spot on. Which puts the ethics of using Charm into question
That does seem like an interesting plot hook! And I totally agree about the ethics issue. But I guess it's better than fireballing them 🤣
I read once that "Enchanment" is a more evil school than "Necromancy" and i agreed with it. Still do.
I don't use it wrong but I've definitely seen people do these things. I think it's similar to minor illusion and the like, where some people try to reach SUPER hard on what a low level spell of each category can do.
Victims of Charm Person are not automatically aware of the real identity of the person who charmed them. You could be magically disguised and use this spell to make people suspicious of the person you are imitating.
"When the spell ends, the creature knows it was charmed by you."
@elreyabeja4539 Indeed. They do not, however, automatically know your true identity. If you look like someone else, the spell ending does not cut through the disguise.
@@AbstractStewI'd say that depends on your DM. It could RAW.
Or they could know that you are not the person you are impersonating
Love the analogy, really helped me wrap my head around how npcs should act. Thanks dude!
You're welcome!
Raistlin and Bupu in dragons of autumn twilight is a fine example
That book was first published in 1984. I have not read the book since then. When i saw this reference I locked onto the scene perfectly from memory. Should I be concerned? Poor Gully Dwarves seem to have been forgotten.
Raistlin used the spell "Friends" which temporarily increases charisma. He then used normal persuasion.
@@davidtauriainen9116 oh ok. I figured it was the simple charm spell since he hadn't found the book of fistandantalaus yet and he only had cantrips and such.
Man, if those candles are real say goodbye to your bookcase!!!!
Use the Suggestion spell instead. It does what people think Charm Person does.
Most npcs have one of three different attitudes towards players. They can be friendly, willing to help to the best of their ability. Neutral, is indifferent to the player or hostile, they will try to hinder the player to the best of their abilities. Those three are in the DMG but I would also add loyal, where the npc sides with you. and aggressive, where the npc sides against you. Charm person sets an npc to friendly. Something to note is that the spell while allowing the npc to know you charmed them does not actively change their stance they way friends does. You can charm the same person over and over again. Or charm entire groups. Its important to point out that charm person does not force an npc to do anything it was not already inclined to do. Charm person is not mind control. At best most people are just going to find it odd that you used magic to influence their mood. At worse some one might take offense to it.
I honestly think that the biggest problem people have with enchantment magic is that they treating like its a video game an not like manipulation. In video games npcs get serious mood whiplash as they bounce from one state to another. A normal person would have a more gradual mood and stance changes towards others unless something drastic happened. People who are being manipulated don't drastically change their stance unless the manipulator does something to massively harm them.
I WISH my players felt these wrong things about Charm Person. They think they can do all of that with a Persuasion or Intimidation check.
As a DM, I home-rule that a victim doesn't realize they are charmed or have been charmed unless they have experience with it. Otherwise, none of my players would use it instead of the Friends cantrip.
The Friends cantrip has the exact same restriction.
It's honestly more of a non combat spell.
Certainly, but it could be used creatively to put the character into a position to fight for a common goal. It all depends, and that's what makes tabletop role-playing superior to a CRPG.
90% agreed but I'd maybe argue that you'd convince yourself, if you regard them as a friendly acquaintance for the duration of the spell, "no Bob wouldn't do that" during the spell being active.
So what your telling me is I need to change my beholders charm ray to dominate person.
Great advice and it helps keep this element fun!
Axxi Sign
The only thing I don't like about Charm Person is that it feels like you need subtle spell to really use it. I can't see people reacting positively when you walk up to them or are in the middle of a conversation only to wave their hands around and yelling some crazy non-sense words at you for six seconds.
Agreed - this is something most people don't realize when they use it or DM it. It's actually painfully obvious to everyone around (including the victim) that a spell is being cast. If the victim also happens to know the spell or has a good Arcana skill...🤔
Always have problems with charm person cuz it doesn't seem as cool as I wanted
As a 3e player, a bard, I negotiated a deal with one of 7 loosely allied evil leaders that we had cornered. Although he had a PC hostage, and a young adult dragon ally, we agreed that we would not only let him live, but help him destroy one of the other leaders. In return, he had to agree to be charmed for the duration of the treaty. His dragon remained free and unhindered as a guarantee that we would honor the deal.... which we did.
I'm planning to use it for my snake oil salesman of an Arcane Trickster.
3:36 they turn green but can't attack former allies or "new friends", or the spell ends and he agroes most of the time
4:22 Why did back in the day of D&D 3.5 and earlier, players and DMs didn't take the sage advice seriously, yet nowadays it's considered the next step from the official books in official content?
Sage Advice is the column with the rules designers' opinions. The Sage Advice Compendium (which is what I mentioned) is WotC's official rules clarification document. Not everything in Sage Advice makes it into the compendium - only those things WotC wants to officially clarify. Hope this helps. :-)
So I run od&d white box. The spell is complete permanent domination of any humanoid creature under 5 hit dice.
That's significantly cooler especially considering it's 1st level.
I've seen Charm abused this way by DMs but they abuse Suggestion even more. Suggestion is simply an upgraded Command spell with more versatility. Suggestion does not make you switch sides and fight for the caster. DMs love using Charm and Suggestion this way because they may run a lot of low level games and never get to use the real spell that would hijack charcater actions like Dominate spells.
Charm is not Dominate and neither is Suggestion but people love reading further than they should into spells. And then when you point it out to them they just say "well, I like it this way." 😅😂
Yeah, some people think charm person is enemies abound
I think it would take more than a simple skill check to realize you are charmed or even being told you are by an ally. Since the charmer has advantage on all social rolls against you. So for a charmed PC I'd give them disadvantage on all rolls to figure things out. because I dont roll social skills against PC's. So disadvantage on arcana, as they ask their charmer hey was that a charm per son spell just now? response "nah your delusional is was a simple prayer to my deity for good fortune" in that situation they may actually know it was charm person but if they fail the check they dont want to bring it up or do anything about it for fear of gaining the disapproval of their charmer. Thats how manipulation works you can "know" but not have the strength of character to overcome those feelings and confront your manipulator.
Since charm person has abroad spectrum of interpretations PC's that are charmed will try to find more ways to weasel out on being charmed, than a DM would with a charmed NPC.
I used to think these spells were really cool until I realized A) that apparently spell components are really obvious and B) that the spell outright lets the person know they were charmed. It's always a temporary thing, and odds are the target will be less than neutral about the fact you just placed a mind spell on them, however weak the effect might be. That is a massive limitation for circumstances in which the spell is a viable option and which notably blocks out most circumstances in which I myself would like to use a spell like it. In fact the design has counter-synergy with itself as the most sensible targets for it are those already hostile to you.... the ones that also get advantage on the saving throw.
I think your description of a relationship with "a charming narcissist" is more the Charmed condition on its own: advantage on social checks, can't harm them. Your description leaves out "views the charmer as a friendly acquaintance." I think that part actually does generally prevent "I know I'm Charmed, and I want to stop being Charmed," because while the spell is in effect, Narcissa Malfoy is a friendly acquaintance. She's not the kind of person who would manipulate me, at least not maliciously! She's good ol' Narcissa!
This still doesn't mean the target can't know he's Charmed, or even under the effects of _charm person._ It does, however, mean that on multiple levels, he's convinced that Narcissa doesn't mean him any harm by it. She had to get him to calm down. She had to get him to give her the opportunity to show him she's trustworthy. She didn't want things to get out of hand, so even if _charm person_ is a little out of line, it's probably forgivable if she had a good reason, and she deserves the opportunity to explain herself. Again: "friendly acquaintance," not "stranger I have no reason to trust" nor "acquaintance I like but is a meaniepants to me." At worst, it's "my sometimes-friend who I like, but I know I've got to watch myself because he'll take advantage of me, but I'll forgive him if I catch him at it 'cause that's on me since we both know the game."
That's a hard needle to thread, honestly.
As to the target learning he's been Charmed, I sometimes think a good strategy would be to have the caster, herself, tell the target she did it. "Bob," says Narcissa, "I'm sorry I had to charm you, but you know I don't want to hurt you and you were getting awfully beligerant. Let's talk this out." And then Narcissa or her allies coax Bob into accepting that it was for the best, use the Charmed condition's advantage to bring him around to agreeing that they are actually okay people, and work him up to Friendly before the Charm wears off. When it does, he's aware he was Charmed, sure, but he already knew that. He doesn't magically consider Narcissa a "friendly acquaintance" anymore, but he also view the party as new buddies.
As long as the target knows he's Charmed and you can work him "naturally" up to a point where he's rationalized it as 'acceptable,' the natural part of the persuasion sticks.
This is exactly the way its supposed to be used. My biggest thing in the spell is that the target automatically knows it was charmed. This is why in my games, I make the target make a wisdom saving throw and if they pass the spell DC of the caster, they know they were charmed. This allows people to use the spell a bit more without causing hostile creatures.
That makes sense. I had a charismatic bard in 3E. Combat was never his first option. Given time, I would try to naturally charm a target by getting to know them, knowing what they want, and being helpful and pleasant. Magic was just a guarantee, or a sloppy short cut.
In 5e how about creature's, like the vampires charm ability, is it the same as the spell or more powerful and can they command you to do things they wouldn't usely do like attack and kill your long time group member. And before you ask, yes this happened in our 5e group by the DM and no they didn't use command or dominate person it was a vampire charm ability.
In 5E a vampire's charm ability is more powerful than the charm person spell. "The charmed target regards the vampire as a trusted friend to be heeded and protected. Although the target isn’t under the vampire’s control, it takes the vampire’s requests or actions in the most favorable way it can, and it is a willing target for the vampire’s bite attack."
@@level20dm thanks for the reply...but it doesn't answer my query.
This is all just obvious from how the spell is written. People who ignore the wording of the spell are probably going to ignore what is said in this video too.
No I’m not. Of course I haven’t used it since 2nd edition. Why you may ask. Well it’s because I saw how wizards handled magic before it purchased it from tsr and noped out ever playing it again. With this crap show that is currently going on I have found it’s was a great decision.
99% of us? That's mighty high horsish of you.
No, not at ll. It's based on data. I have 30k subs on my other platforms and I'm basing this off hundreds and hundreds of comments. It's shocking how many people don't understand this spell.
Did you get this inspiration from Renfield?
No, but that was a great movie!
Banned spell in every game I play. The moral implications are about as bad as you can get.
There is no darker magic than enchantment magic. Necromancy is preschool to Enchantments graduate degree on the scale of war crimes.
@@thedruski85 I agree 100% just trying to avoid rabbit holes…
Why did I read that "about as bard as you can get"
That you have less than 500 subs here baffles me. Anyways, I subbed lol
Lol thanks for the compliment and the sub! I haven't been focusing on RUclips much, so it's understandable 🤣
If one actually reads the spell this is all obvious, but that *isn't* rule of cool or as intended, that is raw. Charm person is supposed to charm a person. If all it was intended to do is what is in rules as written, then the friends spell wouldn't exist. What would be the point of the friends spell or charm if you have the other? Yes, they're technically different, but in the end they have the same social interaction effect and the same draw back of them knowing you charmed them as the spell wears off. Charm is just a better friends raw, but as intended, it is meant to allow you to do more especially roleplay-wise. This is why it was more powerful raw in earlier editions.. because it is supposed to be (against minds weak enough or unlucky enough to be charmed that is). So, yes, your video is technically correct, but the whole point of the spell is to charm a person and not just in the sense of a manipulative narcissist (that's just one interpretation of the spell's usage). What is important is how you roleplay its use and disguise casting the spell. Also, a DM might allow you to charm them so well that they don't care when they find out you charmed them -or- use modification of memory to get around that. Other commenters have also mentioned disguises or illusions to throw the victim off as well.
The video is both RAW and RAI for the charm person spell. Charm person is already far superior to friends in multiple ways without being boosted further. It lasts 1 hour without concentration; friends lasts 1 minute with concentration. Charm person only ends in knowledge; friends ends in hostility. Plus friends can't be cast on anyone who is already hostile to you, whereas charm person can. What you are sharing is your BELIEF of how it should work, which is great as long as you and your table enjoy it that way.
@level20dm It's a 1st level spell...😅😂 If you empower Charm Person and Suggestion to be able to what Dominate does and even better, why would anyone pick Dominate? Seriously, you're low level, you should not able to charm a hill giant to make it fight for your side at 1st level...
People like this really do not think about balance or how their "interpretation" ruins both RAW and RAI.
Mass Suggestion and Charm do not have concentration checks unlike Dominate. They do not give saves to the affected creature every time they take damage unlike Dominate. Dominate is a really cool spell and can only Dominate 1 creature. Mass Suggestion hits 12.
Why on earth would I pick Dominate Monster, an 8th level single target spell if I can just use Mass Suggestion the same way using such a "liberal interpretation" as the OP suggests.
At those tables Dominate Person is even more suboptimal. 1st and 2 level spells are not that powerful, hello. And who cares about old editions? Is this not 5E? Are we also going to bust out THACO? 😅😂