Wow.. just when I thought people have exhausted all angles of understanding the game (and the Whispers.. 4 years later..), your distinction of calling it a "lens" makes this interpretation unique, and the way you've edited and put together your ideas gave me chills thinking about the concept of "Predestination" in context of FF7. I'm already seeing Aerith (and possibly Marlene?) to leave a lasting impact like the OG in a totally different way by celebrating the LIFE aspect of the game rather than DEATH. I'm getting chils thinking about it and your video helped me get there. I'm looking forward to your series, approach, and interpretation.
Even in OG7, I always felt like Aerith knew so much more than she let on. She spoke with the planet itself, and perhaps even back then she wasn't able to say much about the future. Difference being that in Remake, that force stopping her from spilling the beans now has a physical representation. Nonetheless, this is a far better interpretation than "its just plot armor".
Absolutely amazing video. Your section in regards to the possibility of Jenova restructuring and manipulating the memories of the planet in order to confuse not only weak willed beings with Jenova cells and those she confronts (ex the Cetra 2000 years ago) but, literally the planet itself really made lose my mind. This is an eye opening take, one I’ve never seen be discussed before. Amazing video. Will tune in to all the rest!
So why is it that the Whispers would stop Cloud from knowing his past? And willed Aerith to die? If Aerith did not die, would Holy still be completed? Furthermore, how's it possible that the Seph clones carry a sword when they or Jenova reveal themselves?
Dude this video has open my eyes to more Possibilities of the remake Trilogy thank you soo much for your video I hope you and your family had a great new years
I haven't played the remake (and rebirth) yet but oh gosh, this video is really really good! I love how you explain things with concepts and such. I'll be watching your other videos, you're great!
Oooh a new series of videos deep diving into FF7 remake lore. Im definitely here for it. Thank you for giving me something to look forward to while we wait for Rebirth to launch :)
This is absolutely fantastic. Religious and philosophical tools applied to FF7R absolutely enhances and elevates an already masterful experience. Thank you so much for this phenomenal first part series, it was incredible. imo one of your best videos yet!
Maaan, that was so interesting. I very like the idea of omnipresence of the events in the lifestream. It's easier to think about that rather than multiple timelines. I need time to think about it. Good job.❤
Good stuff. I'd heard the idea that the planet/lifestream is atemporal, but it didn't click for me exactly until you pointed out the parallels to Calvinism.
in addition to this thought-provoking video, one interesting details is that the Italian localization translated the "whispers" as "Numen", which in Latin translates to different things, such as "God", "Divine will", "Order", "Authority" and others. Interestingly enough, from "numen" comes the word "noumenon", which in philosophy, if I remember correctly, is the invisible and incomprehesible truth that lies beyond the "phenomenon" (what we actually can see). In short, Noumenon = what makes a certain phenomenon happen; Phenomenon = the physical manifestation of the noumenon, what we humans can perceive with our limited knowledge and senses.
WOW, you’re right! THIS is the kind of comment that makes my teacher brain go wild. I love it! So what’s your take on it, based on this language piece?
@@profnoctis I knew you'd find these details intrersting, being a professor yourself! Glad you enjoyed them! Honestly, it's difficult to give an answer since the devs could do anything with it. But If I were to make a deduction based on that, maybe the whispers could be Minerva's doing, since she's the manifestation of the lifestream, and Genesis describes her as a Goddess. But i cannot go further than this. We'll have to wait for Rebirth, or most likely part 3. Anyway, thanks for your reply!
Thanks for this first episode! I always liked the intent of the whisper sub plot, but thought it had clunky execution at times. This makes me even more interested in and on board with what they're planning.
Bro, this video is beautifully done! From the pick of the clips, music to your point of view that is fascinating to me. Your take on Aerith gave me goosebumps and wet my eyes. Congrats and thank you for making such relevant content to the fandom. Can't wait to see more, and hope the video gets the views it deserves!
Absolutely awesome stuff in here! I'm pretty ignorant about Religion in general, just because I was never exposed to much of anything but the comparison similarities are really cool concepts that are fascinating to listen to you talk about. Big fan!
This was such an amazing analysis of The Whispers. Admittedly, I had resistance to The Whispers when I first played FF7R, but grew to really appreciate them by the end of the game because of how much depth they add to the lore, conflict, and characterization of Aerith. Your research and lens really help complete the puzzle for me in terms of how I think about the FF7R trilogy as the intended original ambition and scope for the game. Definitely looking forward to more of your series!
I have not played Rebirth yet but would like to listen to the latest idea about Remake and such before I jump into Rebirth. Your points about the knowledge of the planet in lifestream is spot on. I was one of the angry fans that calling Whisper as ‘plot armor’ but when I step back and think about trilogy as a whole it starts to make sense and I am beginning to agree that Whisper is a genius addition to the new FFVII. This video is the cherry on top that confirms my belief. The only thing I wish FFVII remake have done was to make Whisper appearance more subtle (I personally hate that scene when Hojo was carried away by them and he seemed not to care about that afterward) something like…nobody notice them until the very end of the game and then surprise! everything you have done was predestined by these things. Anyway, thanks for the video 🎉
Hey thank you! Yeah, I think they CAN stick the landing. The ingredients are there. Looking forward to seeing how it develops in rebirth. Thank you for watching this series!
I would love to see how the Calvanistic approach to looking at FFVII intersects the Kabbalistic viewpoint I've seen applied. Great video! I look forward to more!
@@profnoctis for sure, and it totally paid off! also, i apologize for the profanity, i’ve come to realize this is a little more of a family friendly channel haha i was just really hyped up, that music always gets me emotional. i’ll edit a bit
One other way that the implementation of the Whispers makes sense is, they sort of help bridge the gap in the way that they could be used to explain some of the more fantastical plot points about the OG story. One big example that comes to mind is Cloud's fatal fall into the Sector 5 Church. With the "realistic" approach that they're taking in this Re trilogy, their implementation could be a way help ground things better.
@@profnoctis As a wild side, someone pointed out that in CC: Reunion, when Cloud literally stabs Sephiroth in the back in the Nibelheim reactor flashback sneak attack, there is Whisper mist surrounding the wound in the cutscene. They argue that Sephiroth is still alive and that Cloud did not actually kill him in Remake trilogy now.
Great video. In my religious beliefs, I have always learned about the book of life and how life (some call it fate) is pre determined (karma and past lives) but we as humans (our bodies as a vessel) , and our souls are put into this world to experience what is set out for us. But as souls with free will, we have the ability to choose the destiny we want as long as we make the conscious effort to not coast through life. So this whole whispers thing always made sense to me in that way and I'm quite accepting of it even though the echo chamber online just seems to hate the whispers. I just don't know how to explain why I think whispers makes sense in ff7 world but I think u did an excellent job explaining in this video
Yes! I’m so glad it resonated with you here. I think those of us familiar with those religious concepts definitely have a leg up on understanding this stuff. Thanks for the comment!
Great video! I think that you should do a video like this, summarizing your thesis on 16. It would help a lot for those of us who didn't followed the 16 lectures
Interesting !! Lifestream does get a variety of definitions... Marlene in AC intro, Intro in Evercrisis is different !! Also Tseng, Barrett, Hojo,Rufus, Red XIII, Bugganhagen all speak of the lifestream in similar but different LENSES...
So honest question…Biggs, Jesse and Wedge all die at the end of the Midgar section in the original. I believe it is implied that all of them live by the end of remake (pt. 1). How does this mesh with the narrative that the whispers are trying to preserve the flow of time and destiny since that very clearly deviates from the original storyline?
I’m a Calvinist pastor who loves gaming and has FF as my second favorite franchise ever. Never did I expect to hear those two topics in the same video. Can we be friends?😂
Damn man this framing has got me MESSED UP. The idea of Jenova potentially messing with the memory of the planet has me wondering if there even is another world/timeline, or if the knowledge of the planet is just messed up. Fantastic video, absolutely love it.
Coming back to this after having some time to marinate (and not be working at the same time, lol). Although I'm no longer a professing Christian myself, it did bring back some old memories of a fairly vibrant debate in the tiny Pentecostal church I attended in my late teens with regard to the intersection of free will and predestination. The loose agreement IIRC was that it boiled down to the extent to which that governance piece was being exercised, but that ultimately, this life/ world/ cosmos isn't ours anyway, so it was considered reasonable that there would be constraints or limits on scope of what we as a people or as individuals might think to do. A scope of allowable volition, if you will. With regard to the Lifestream and the Whispers, it's very easy to see how a similar concept applies--volition still exists within a certain spectrum of variables from which choices might be made, thereby giving the characters' choices some sense of independent meaning, but there are events, actions, etc. which are outside of that scope, and that's where Planet's pretty much just, "Hey, no. That's not for you. Stay on the road. Pick any lane, but no off-roading." Anyhoo, thanks for making this. Very excited to see what comes next!
Yes! Yeah, I think this vid may recall a lot of those memories for former youth group kids lol. But you’re exactly right. This is THE question that Calvinism has to confront imo. Thanks for your thoughtful comment
This was very informative and insightful and provided a new perspective for me. Unrelated but do you consider yourself religious or are you merely interested in learning about it?
Damn great video my man! This cleared up a lot of confusion for me. Even though i am not religious at all those analogies make total sense. I always saw the Whispers as interesting nods to the original and just a way to expand the story but they actually make total sense now! Can't wait to see your other videos!
This is a great analysis and hypothesis. FF7R trilogy is probably Seohiroth's and Jenova's rematch against the livestream itself. They need to do things differently so they can win against the predestination in this timeline. Aerith and the party is here to stop it.
I am probably more of a one linear timeline/no time travel kind of guy (like I try to explain using Aerith and Seph reading the planet’s foreknowledge), but yeah, this is a strong possibility!
@profnoctis when ff7 remake came out. I took a couple days off work to play it straight through. I just finished OG to get the full original story again and now I'm on to reunion and MAAAAYBE remake depending on how long it takes me to finish reunion. The whispers dynamic definitely has made the remake trilogy story interesting because now we get to see how it changes from the original
I think the predestined course is a recurring theme in FF games. 8 essentially a loop I think 9 also Zidane is created for something. 15 Noctis is the true king that the Astral(God) choose and 16 Clive is a vessel for Ultima (a higher being). But it is interesting that the whispers playing an active role preserving the course of destiny.
What’s really interesting to think is that by denying the fate/destiny given to you by the planet, that could also be an act that was predestined for you to do in order to accomplish the planet’s will…face it, if you believe there is predestination, you cannot actually defy it because it could just be that that was also a predetermined action for your life
UNLESS you somehow tapped into knowledge of it. Predestination only works with free will if those with free will aren’t privy to it. That’s what makes FF7’s story so interesting. Sephiroth and Aerith gain awareness of it!
@@profnoctis But what I'm saying is that the governing mind of the lifestream could have predestined them to gain that awareness to give them the perspective they needed to accomplish specific outcomes. Think of the first Matrix. The oracle gives Neo exactly what he needs to accomplish his role, even though he didn't accept it at first. Same as when he broke the vase and she says, "Would you still have broken the vase if I didn't say anything?" Either you have free will, or you don't. Even if you have the perception of exacting your free will on destiny, you can never know that it wasn't the "destiny agent" that intended you to act accordingly to let you think you had overcome a predetermined fate...because the fate you ultimately ended with was also predetermined.
@@dead2me82 sure. I think it’s a difference in understanding the deity- in this case the lifestream- as being a static deity or one with agency. Meaning, if you believe it’s static, and that all of this was also according to plan, then this perspective checks out. Otherwise, the deity pulls some emergency levers to help regain control. In this lens, Sephiroth has hijacked the will of the planet, so the planet is taking emergency measures. It’s a response to Seph’s action. BUT, if the planet already knew Seph’s plan, it’s possible that all of this was preordained anyway. This is just as frustrating irl religions as it is in game lol
@@profnoctisVery true. You mentioned Calvanism as an example of Predestination. A Calvinist would say that all things, good or bad, are predetermined by God...not necessarily that God is the one performing the good or bad things, but He has predestined them to happen in order to accomplish His will. As for FFVII, it would appear that the lifestream has agency as it can create the weapons (Ruby, Emerald, etc.) for the protection of the planet. More importantly, the Lifestream also created the White Materia (Holy) that Aerith is carrying, given to her by her mother. It would seem that that materia pre-dates Sephiroth and his plans, thus showing that the lifestream knew in advance that the materia would be needed to protect itself in the future. This would be the key factor that would cause me to think that Sephiroth was not acting against the will of the lifestream, but in accordance to the plans of the lifestream. Just my $.02
Just how I stumbled across this video, due to it sharing by the man who wrote books about real world mythological influences on ff7. I say to you too, thank you. Using Ff7 as a medium, is the easiest and fastest way to entertain my curiosity and explain and educate me in a medium that is both easily identifiable and rememorable. Though something near, dear and special to my heart. It both entertains and educates, in the best way possible.
@profnoctis it helps with my gf. Adamant in her view I might have ADHD. So, teaching me through ff7 helps the lesson stick to a man who has 13 Sephiroth dolls scattered across his apartment. I learned alot about Norse and Greek myths. Now I learned about religion through you.
I’m kinda glad my posts back whining about the whispers are gone. When the remake first came out I loved it, but I absolutely overreacted regarding them (Wah Wah the ending is bad! Blah blah Barret blah) acting as if the original was some sacred text that must never be altered. I hate that I ever acted like one of those fans, but nowadays I just eagerly await part 2 and take it as it comes, I’ve grown to like remake’s battle system just as much as the original; which I never thought would happen.
This is all Aertith re-living live :) She's the last of the guardians remember. And the future isn't predetermined but a collection of potentialities :)
Knowing how introspective the developers are... particularly in Japan, the fanbase analogy makes so much sense to me. The biggest challenge for the devs was the legend of FF7 and extremely critical and passionate fans. The Whispers are a really clever analogy for the fans themselves.... they resist change and want the game to be a certain way; everytime Cloud is about to veer off course, the Whispers try to force the story to unfold as it originally did. Remake is about the player wrestling Cloud's fate away from Destiny, and leading into his Rebirth... the game has a big open world, and you can navigate in all directions, which is in stark contrast to Remake, where you're very much on the rails, with 'predestined' outcomes... from A to B, with the camera zoomed close in, quite claustrophobic at times....not anymore though; as the voiceover in the trailer says, we broke the shackles of destiny. Man Rebirth is going to be so good!
- There is no redemption for Sephiroth, nor does he seek to free himself from Jenova, both work in synergy to carry out Sephiroth's plans that coincide with Jenova's. - Sephiroth has knowledge of what will happen in the future if everything had remained the same. a) Sephiroth seeks to do the same as in the OG but in a different way. b) What is the union of the two worlds? What does Sephiroth want? Sephiroth seeks to do the same, manipulate Cloud, obtain the black matter, summon a meteorite, cause a wound to the planet and be in the middle to absorb all that energy and knowledge, become a God and navigate the cosmos doing the same. The situation is that by having this knowledge of the future, he knows that there are things he did that led him to lose (although he can return as long as Cloud exists and possesses Jenova's cells), for example, murdering Aerith since she was able to summon Sacred and then direct the life current to expel meteorite, but he also needs to kill Aerith to continue the manipulation towards Cloud, so Sephiroth in Remake made his first chess move, and that was, manipulating the group so that they faced the herald of destiny and that wish to change the destination that was shown to them (partially and obviously at their convenience) in all the images during the game. This he did and here I play with this theory, Sephiroth managed to defeat the herald of destiny (a weapon of the planet) and by being able to create "a correction" in destiny, he made one, but incomplete, he generated a singularity throughout Midgar, where all those who are alive coexist, with those who should be dead but who remain alive thanks to the defeat of the herald. This incomplete correction meant that there were two of each main character (Cloud, Aerith, Barret, Nanaki, Tifa) but they were left in a coma to avoid a paradox (When Sephiroth kills Aerith he will wake up in his bed next to Zack), these who They were left in a coma, they lived the same as in the Remake, but without Cloud, bomb mission, plate fall, assault on the Shinra building, escape from Midgar, but the tornadoes that appeared at the intersection of destiny singularity, materialized in that other line and left the characters that appear in that trailer in a coma, fainted. Sephiroth follows the same plan as in the original, but by killing Aerith this time, he will not reach the lifestream where he can use his full potential to use against meteorite, but rather he makes her wake up in her other body without having the same powers. and perhaps without being able to summon Sacred, which causes the same shock to Cloud since they will think that she is still dead and can continue with her manipulation, and her mental breakdown. And by having Zack alive he can also use it against Cloud to diminish and break him, knowing that only because of his dead friend did he manage to be what he was, practically making him look like an imposter and someone who could not save his two friends in any way. . The meeting of the two worlds is that, the unification of the world of OG-REMAKE with the world without destiny in which Zack and Biggs lived, being able to proceed with their same objectives, although it is likely that Sephiroth angel will appear anyway, but sephiroth He seeks to rebuild his entire body from the crystal of the northern crater and return to life with all his potential. Grades: -This theory can work either with an alternate timeline, or with the lifestream theory, but it materializes and is not left alone in the spiritual world. -One question that remains is, if all the inhabitants of Midgar were affected by the incomplete correction, what does this mean, that they have the memories of everything that happened in the remake but without Cloud, or only Zack and Biggs have those different memories, The interaction that Zack has with Elmyra, Kyrie and Marlene will reveal this to us, if they recognize Cloud, if they do not recognize him, it is because all of Midgar was left with these altered memories, if they recognize Cloud, then the remake remains the same for everyone. the inhabitants of Midgar, unless all those who managed to see the whispers still have the memories of the remake and also those who received energy from Aerith such as Marlene and Nanaki, in that case Biggs will also reveal to us knowing how he remembers the events of the remake, although they may leave us wondering until part 3. -If Sephiroth's plan ends badly, he has his last card, which is to make Cloud decide if she wants to face fate or not, what does he mean by this? that in the end if he joins Sephiroth, his friends (including Zack and Aerith) will be able to stay alive but without Cloud or let the reality where they live exist but with an uncertain destiny where the meteorite does crash into Gaia, or the other thing is that Cloud defeats Sephiroth and the correction of destiny is achieved and those who should be dead (Zack, Aerith, Biggs) disappear.
You completely missed the idea that the Whispers we see in the Remake are from tainted lifestream, tainted by Jenova and Sephiroth. Whispers look like the hooded robe men going for reunion, and harbringer is a purple monster, party also fights with 3 jenova/seph creations straight from Advent Children. All the whispers then combine to Sephiroth from AC, which further strentgen that view. The tainted whispers and lifestream is the main motivation for Aerith, so it's not a sudden change of mind out of nowhere, we don't even know what were her plans, although it might true that she realized this at this point that lifestream is tainted and she can no longer trust its guidance. Question is why would Sephiroth want this to happen as he opens the portal by himself and attracts the party to kill the whispers harbringer and his tainted representation from AC?
I think it’s when she realizes the lifestream is being tainted that she steps in. That there’s something wrong, even if she doesn’t know all the details of it. That’s why her announcement to Sephiroth “you’re wrong” is so critical
I interpreted FFVII as being a cycle that repeats over and over. Remake I saw as Sephiroth’s attempt to “remake” the timeline in his own way, instead of the whispers holding everything completely in check.
Yeah that would definitely align with my “what is final fantasy” video. I do think there’s a cycle, though it’s more a cycle of souls and memories, moving in and out of the lifestream. But I’m also not a big time travel theorist for this game. It’s possible, but I think there are other ways to make sense. Either way, we’ll see! Thank you for your insight
This was awesome. And, phenomenally well put together. It reminded me of a college thesis. Or, a new hire employee video 🤣💯 It was very well done. Congratulations 🎊 👏🏽 My only question out of all of this would have to be how does Red XIII (13) / Nanaki know about the Whispers? I'm sure Bugenhagen has something to do with this for sure. I can't wait to get these answers. I'd also like to add that, unlike Aerith, Sephiroth actually was submerged into the lifestream. That's how he becomes crystallized within Materia at the Northern Cave. I feel that by doing this, he not only knows what the lifestream entails but (possibly) has gained power from the lifestream, as well. Of course, he definitely gained knowledge, as well. He and Aerith both can see the outcome(s) of the future. But, could it be possible that Sephiroth sees something Aerith does not and can not? I can't wait to find out. 👋🏼
I think it's reaching a little to go so in-depth into certain christian theology, it's quite narrow, especially as it's an eastern game which leans more into ideas like impermanence and reincarnation which are a stark departure from more middle-eastern / western theology about achieving eternal salvation. I think christian theology is at odds with the themes of FFVII as it views the "everlasting" as a virtue and a goal, whereas lasting forever is positively dystopian in FFVII. The theme is more about accepting the mortality of life, and the normal course is for souls to dissolve back into the lifestream, not to exist eternally. In fact Sephiroth's desire for eternal life is what makes him a villain. The Promised Land in FFVII is specifically said to not be a real place, but rather fulfilment and contentedness with one's legacy and acceptance of ones mortality, and Sephiroth's inability to let himself become a memory one day, is why he can't find the promised land / happiness as he leaves only a dark legacy behind, and can only prolong his existence by tormenting the minds of others. The planet's natural state appears to be a mortal one, and so not omnipotent per se. I think it has more in common with things like hinduism tbh, with the cycle of creation and destruction (Genesis, Angeal and Sephiroth also potentially linked to the 3 deities.) It must die in order to be cleansed and reborn, much like the souls in the lifestream. Extrapolating the life cycle of an individual up to the scale of the cosmos. Basically I don't think you can just look at one theology, as FF is a mish-mash of many different mythologies, Norse mythology being important too such as ragnarok and the end of the world. But maybe you were just talking about predestination just for that one aspect of this theme of fate in FFVII, I just felt like adding onto that, about the limitations of reaching too far. I think Zack's survival is a way for the developers to explore the power of free will, specifically how Sephiroth survived melding with the lifestream, and how Aerith likely will also. And of course to explore free will they must also explore the nature of destiny. I think the idea of the Whispers have been around since at least Crisis Core and Genesis bloviating about Loveless, with passages about the wind on the water's surface. The water being the lifestream, and the whispers being the winds of fate.
Great points. And true, FF7 is not a perfect analogue to any Christian theology, nor is it a perfect parallel to Norse mythology or Hinduism. However, I think using any of these as lenses helps us think about the game’s narrative in a different light. For instance, my next video will look at completely different elements of other religious and philosophical traditions. Whether a religious reading, a gendered or queer reading, a philosophical, or a practical reading- I think it’s always fascinating to use lenses to think about narratives through different lenses to see what we can deduce. Thanks for the comment, and I hope that clears up my stance.
@@profnoctis Came because I faintly remember making the above post. And thinking about Rebirth now... Sephiroth: "All made whole. Forever." Aerith: "There's no such thing as 'forever'." Sephiroth: "Ah... but there will be." In my post I said "In fact Sephiroth's desire for eternal life is what makes him a villain." I'm sure I wrote a ton of stuff that was a bad prediction, but this seemed to be pretty spot on. But equally I think that there is a heavenly quality to the idea of the promised land too, since they appear to be building it up as the place where souls find total peace. Which comes in the form of their dreams and hopes being fulfilled. I think Aerith's promised land, is ironically to NOT get what she wants, being the selfless person she is. She wants to be together with Cloud, that is her dream, and that is the dream they share at the start of Chapter 14. But she has a much greater wish than even that. As you approach her while she's praying at the altar, she says that her ultimate hope is to keep her friends safe. And because she is destined to die, she has to choose between these two dreams. Be with Cloud, or see him safe. And that is what is represented when the flowers die in her dream world, and she sends Cloud on his way to live his life without her. I would absolutely love it if they had a scene in Part 3 of Avalanche, Zack, Aerith all together eating pizza at Seventh Heaven, talking about how all their dreams are being fulfilled, and thanking a bewildered Cloud for something he hasn't done, Biggs is excited about the orphans being looked after, Wedge thanks him for fixing up the old bar and serving his delicious pizza etc. and then Aerith takes Cloud for a stroll and tells him that she's so happy to see him again, but he can't stay here forever. And with the implication being that all these dreams are only made possible and fulfilled, if Cloud goes back to the real world, because it's Cloud who will fulfil their dreams from them in his own life. Cloud will be their promised land. In Advent Children they do re-open the bar, they look after Denzel and the orphans, etc. And Tifa and Cloud will be together, which is what Aerith wants, because she wants Tifa to have the relationships she never could. IMO that is the perfect way to end FFVIIR but who knows what they'll do. The final fulfilment of Cloud's life will probably be to die, so that he and Aerith can be reunited one last time in death, which is perhaps what the final scene is about with Nanaki and the overgrown Midgar. A line where Aerith explains they will see each other again, but heavily implying that it's the last thing she wants for him. To me that is a good bittersweet ending, in that you see all the characters happy in one final scene in the promised land before they say their goodbyes and stop the Meteor. We've seen Sephiroth's dream world (Zack's world of despair.) And we saw Aerith's dream world (her date with Cloud.) And I think (maybe?) Cloud's dream world... is ultimately THE real world. And the promised land is Cloud's life. That is why Cloud is such an important character. I could imagine that is why the lifestream springs to action in the end, to protect all the hopes and dreams of the lifestream that have been passed onto Cloud. I just figured my prediction earlier was pretty good so maybe I'm on a roll, and had some thoughts on what may come next. Knowing SE I'm so so wrong. As for what 7 seconds from the end means, is anyone's guess. Whether to stay or go from the promised land, perhaps? Whether to deliver the final blow against shirtless Sephiroth? Aerith did say that he can only be defeated by a Cetra. Many possibilities.
Thank you for bringing up the topic of predestination! I’m surprised more people haven’t. It was interesting learning about Calvinist thought on the topic. Great video! This might be long winded but wanted to give a Muslim perspective/lens on the topic. Islam also contains predestination, called “Qadr”, as well as free will. It is similar to the Calvinist interpretation in that it also represents these concepts with tangible metaphors called “the Pen”, “the Preserved Tablet” and each individual person’s record of deeds, although the exact nature of these things are known only by God. It is also similar in that a believer reaches a level of peace when they have submitted their will to God’s will. Islam takes a middle path between the free will and predestination debate. There is an understanding that God is the Creator of time and knows everything that has and will happen. There is also the understanding that things are only allowed to happen if God wills it. But humans are also responsible for their actions and should make decisions understanding there is cause and effect that they have limited control over. There are certain things that are immutable, for example when you are born and when you die, but we are taught that we can change our destiny with our prayers, supplications, and good deeds. If God wills it, a course that we are on that has already been written will be “erased” and we will be put on a new course based on our actions and God’s will. We ultimately have to make the decision to do those good deeds though, and since, again God knows everything, He knows whether or not we will and the corresponding possibilities resulting from those decisions. I hope I explained it accurately enough lol. And allahu ‘alam (this means “God knows best”- it’s a phrase Muslims say out of humility both when we don’t have the full breadth of knowledge on a topic or if the topic involves the “Unseen”- the realm of knowledge known fully only by God- of which “Qadr” falls under). Taking this to the original FF7, it makes me think of Aerith’s decision to go to the Forgotten Capitol to pray for Holy. And the party’s decision to risk their lives to stop Sephiroth/ free Aerith’s prayer. Their actions were correct, but they’re human so their control over the effect of their actions was limited. However, because of their actions and Aerith’s prayer, the planet’s will allowed the Lifestream to come forth and assist Holy in stopping Meteor. I know there was/is debate whether or not the planet decided to let the humans live, but I never really understood that debate… I mean it ends with children laughing lol. Taking it to Remake, I think it’s like you said. The Lifestream contains the knowledge of everything that will happen and *could* happen, and Sephiroth- who is inside the Lifestream- gained access to that knowledge. That knowledge can include future possibilities that have not happened yet because the decisions have not been made by the humans involved! In Remake, it’s interesting that the vision of Meteor that Cloud sees in the Shinra simulator scene doesn’t have the Lifestream surrounding it. The Advent Children opening version of that same scene does, and the other visions- namely the ones in Chapter 18- came from the Advent Children opening and are identical. If I’m not mistaken, Holy is not even shown around it in the Remake version. So it raises the question, is Sephiroth showing Cloud a possibility that he wants to happen? A possibility where Aerith doesn’t pray for Holy, or at least not successfully. Obviously predestination takes a different form in FF7’s universe since this is not the Abrahamic conception of God, but rather the Planet is both a deity and a macro-organism concerned with its own survival since it’s susceptible to manipulation/death both by Shinra and Sephiroth. I am also not 100% convinced that the Whispers that we saw in Remake and that we’ve seen in the Rebirth trailers are purely agents of the Planet’s will. Looking at it just visually they’re literally black cloaked figures reminiscent of the Sephiroth copies, and we know from the wider universe that the Lifestream can be corrupted by Jenova cells and even by extreme negative emotions, which would likely be a problem in Remake’s version of events since Hojo has been experimenting on people for over 15 years, well before the Nibelheim incident, and there are more Sephiroth copies in Remake’s version. I think there is more to the Whispers that the later games will reveal. So with that in mind, I don’t know if Aerith was actually defying the Planet’s will or if she was defying Sephiroth’s control over the Planet’s will. Or if the “Destiny” they fought and freed themselves of was the destiny of Meteor being stopped by the Lifestream/Holy or if it was the destiny that Sephiroth was trying to impose.
I love love love this. Thank you so much for your insights, and you’re right. The Islamic lens is a super helpful one to understand this too. (Can I put this in my discord?? They’ll eat it up! Also feel free to join it if you’d like. Link in my main about me page). The whispers do look as if they’re corrupted. But I’m not sure if they are fully corrupted before the end of remake or not. I’m really curious what rebirth will tell us about all of this. Thanks again!!
@@profnoctis yeah feel free! And thanks for the invite, yeah I will check it out :) Also super excited to get some answers and probably some more questions lol
I'm speechless. Bravo incredible job on your video all the details and research all of it it's all making sense now. I hope you get more views I really do more people need to watch your video. Great job on breaking it down and explaining it I hope Maximilian dood gets to see this. I don't know how to tag him or share this to him he has a huge following base and your video needs exposure it really does
This is the first time since playing Remake that I've had hope that the Remake trilogy won't end up being a narrative disaster. The idea that Sephiroth traveling the Lifestream after "dying" was essentially the catalyst for the Whispers appearing makes a lot of sense and, while I'm not convinced that's the angle Square is going for, it would be a scenario in which the core themes and story remain intact despite the changes. As far as predestination goes, Viking Age Scandinavians also believed fate was predetermined (this was true for the gods, as well) and, given the wealth of influence from Norse mythology, it's possible the devs were influenced by that.
Hey that’s a huge compliment! Thank you! And yeah, they seem to have crafted a hybrid of multiple predestination thoughts. It’s pretty rad. You see anything specific from the Scandinavian thought?
@@profnoctis Not in particular, but I haven't really thought much about it from that lens, either. Viking Age Scandinavians lived in an honor/shame society, and trying to subvert or change your fate fell on the dishonor side. A bit ironic, given basically everything Odin does is in the vain effort of avoiding his own fate (to die at Ragnarok). If the trilogy ultimately takes the "fate can't be changed" approach, there may be more to dissect there. Really, though, Square just seems to love their destiny/fate motifs, so I'm not sure how much it's influenced by any particular belief system/culture.
Wow.. just when I thought people have exhausted all angles of understanding the game (and the Whispers.. 4 years later..), your distinction of calling it a "lens" makes this interpretation unique, and the way you've edited and put together your ideas gave me chills thinking about the concept of "Predestination" in context of FF7. I'm already seeing Aerith (and possibly Marlene?) to leave a lasting impact like the OG in a totally different way by celebrating the LIFE aspect of the game rather than DEATH. I'm getting chils thinking about it and your video helped me get there. I'm looking forward to your series, approach, and interpretation.
Ahhh, thank you so much. I love the implications of these lenses. Look forward to whatever insights you might contribute to the series!
Thank you for pointing out Sephiroth's quote at Temple of the Ancients. Too many people over look this when crafting theories for VIIR.
It’s a HUGE quote
@@profnoctis that it is. Shows there is lore present for what looks like future knowledge without needing time travel and such
Oh, man. This was sick. Huge fan of this and love the deep religion similarities you have put together here. Excited for the next one!
Thanks Zach! This was a blast to make
Final Fantasy 7 and Theology, explained by an actual professor... now that is my cup of tea.
Thank you so much!
Thanks for watching! I hope you enjoy this series :)
Even in OG7, I always felt like Aerith knew so much more than she let on. She spoke with the planet itself, and perhaps even back then she wasn't able to say much about the future. Difference being that in Remake, that force stopping her from spilling the beans now has a physical representation.
Nonetheless, this is a far better interpretation than "its just plot armor".
Thanks! Yeah I think this helps explain it in-world, rather than relying on outside stuff
They will forever be dementors to me
lol the resemblance is uncanny!
Absolutely amazing video. Your section in regards to the possibility of Jenova restructuring and manipulating the memories of the planet in order to confuse not only weak willed beings with Jenova cells and those she confronts (ex the Cetra 2000 years ago) but, literally the planet itself really made lose my mind. This is an eye opening take, one I’ve never seen be discussed before. Amazing video. Will tune in to all the rest!
Ah!! I’m so glad you liked that part. The Jenova part almost got moved to a later video but I’m so glad I made it fit here. Thanks for watching!
So why is it that the Whispers would stop Cloud from knowing his past? And willed Aerith to die? If Aerith did not die, would Holy still be completed? Furthermore, how's it possible that the Seph clones carry a sword when they or Jenova reveal themselves?
What a video!! You made the Whispers and Lifestream make so much more sense. Can’t wait for the rest of this series.
Thanks Dust!
This was so incredibly done, I didn’t want it to end! Looking forward to the rest of the series, Rebirth is so close!
Thanks! Hopefully this will make the wait a little more bearable!
Dude, you smashed it with this. It aligns with a lot of my thoughts on what’s happening. Excited for the next one buddy!
Thanks my man. I sensed that you and I share a lot of ideas when we talked last!
Literal chills. The parallels you drew between the game's philosophy and Calvinism were incredible. Looking forward to the next part!!!
Thank you so so much. I’m glad you liked it! (And you won’t believe where we’re going next)
HYPE!!!
Dude this video has open my eyes to more Possibilities of the remake Trilogy thank you soo much for your video I hope you and your family had a great new years
Right on! Thank you!!
I haven't played the remake (and rebirth) yet but oh gosh, this video is really really good! I love how you explain things with concepts and such.
I'll be watching your other videos, you're great!
Thanks so much! I hope you enjoy the next ones!
This is my first watch of one of your videos and I have to say this was great. I'm looking forward to the next part.
Thanks for watching!
Oooh a new series of videos deep diving into FF7 remake lore. Im definitely here for it. Thank you for giving me something to look forward to while we wait for Rebirth to launch :)
Hope it helps make the wait more bearable! Thanks for watching
This is absolutely fantastic. Religious and philosophical tools applied to FF7R absolutely enhances and elevates an already masterful experience. Thank you so much for this phenomenal first part series, it was incredible. imo one of your best videos yet!
Gosh, I appreciate that so so much. Thanks for watching!
Am already masterful experience? You can't be serious
Incredible a video, very well produced, edited and narrated. I love the passion gamers have for FF7. Rebirth can’t come quick enough.
We’re trying to make the wait bearable lol
I just started playing part 2, and I was hoping someone had talked about this! :) Excited to watch this series!
Maaan, that was so interesting. I very like the idea of omnipresence of the events in the lifestream. It's easier to think about that rather than multiple timelines. I need time to think about it. Good job.❤
Yeah I think this allows an interpretation other than timelines or time travel, and I think that’s really cool. Thanks for watching!
Good stuff. I'd heard the idea that the planet/lifestream is atemporal, but it didn't click for me exactly until you pointed out the parallels to Calvinism.
Right??? I think it makes a lot of sense, and explains Sephiroth and Aerith’s foreknowledge without making time travel necessary.
@@profnoctisyes!!!!
Never failing to deliver, amigo.
Masterfully done. So looking foward to the rest of the series and release and certainly keeps the hype til then!
Right on!
Right on!
First video to run into, and I'm absolutely enthralled with this. Guess I got quite a few to watch/listen through now.
Pace yourself lol. There’s a lot to cover! And the final Thesis video drops NEXT weekend. It’s a doozy
in addition to this thought-provoking video, one interesting details is that the Italian localization translated the "whispers" as "Numen", which in Latin translates to different things, such as "God", "Divine will", "Order", "Authority" and others. Interestingly enough, from "numen" comes the word "noumenon", which in philosophy, if I remember correctly, is the invisible and incomprehesible truth that lies beyond the "phenomenon" (what we actually can see). In short, Noumenon = what makes a certain phenomenon happen; Phenomenon = the physical manifestation of the noumenon, what we humans can perceive with our limited knowledge and senses.
WOW, you’re right! THIS is the kind of comment that makes my teacher brain go wild. I love it! So what’s your take on it, based on this language piece?
@@profnoctis I knew you'd find these details intrersting, being a professor yourself! Glad you enjoyed them! Honestly, it's difficult to give an answer since the devs could do anything with it. But If I were to make a deduction based on that, maybe the whispers could be Minerva's doing, since she's the manifestation of the lifestream, and Genesis describes her as a Goddess. But i cannot go further than this. We'll have to wait for Rebirth, or most likely part 3. Anyway, thanks for your reply!
@@helix_9645 love it. can’t wait to see what they do with Minerva
Thanks for this first episode! I always liked the intent of the whisper sub plot, but thought it had clunky execution at times. This makes me even more interested in and on board with what they're planning.
Thank you!
Bro, this video is beautifully done! From the pick of the clips, music to your point of view that is fascinating to me. Your take on Aerith gave me goosebumps and wet my eyes. Congrats and thank you for making such relevant content to the fandom. Can't wait to see more, and hope the video gets the views it deserves!
Friend, thank YOU! Your musical contribution to the Lifestream section was amazingly perfect.
@@profnoctis 👊🏻😊
Oofta this a great view point…Cannot wait to see how all this plays out!
Feb 29 cannot get here soon enough!
@@profnoctis Agreed! The hype is growing with vids like this haha. Thanks for helping us pass the time ;)
the intro's sync to the remake's intro while obvious, was very well done.
Lol I appreciate it. Felt like the only way to start this series
Absolutely awesome stuff in here! I'm pretty ignorant about Religion in general, just because I was never exposed to much of anything but the comparison similarities are really cool concepts that are fascinating to listen to you talk about. Big fan!
Super appreciate you. Thanks!
This was such an amazing analysis of The Whispers. Admittedly, I had resistance to The Whispers when I first played FF7R, but grew to really appreciate them by the end of the game because of how much depth they add to the lore, conflict, and characterization of Aerith. Your research and lens really help complete the puzzle for me in terms of how I think about the FF7R trilogy as the intended original ambition and scope for the game. Definitely looking forward to more of your series!
Thanks! I think you’re going to love the next video lecture. Make sure you check out the long-form Lecture Plays too if you get a chance!
Let's goo! 🎉
🎉🎉🎉
Fantastic analysis. Certainly course-corrected some of my own theorizing off the back of this!
Hey right on! Glad to hear it
I have not played Rebirth yet but would like to listen to the latest idea about Remake and such before I jump into Rebirth. Your points about the knowledge of the planet in lifestream is spot on. I was one of the angry fans that calling Whisper as ‘plot armor’ but when I step back and think about trilogy as a whole it starts to make sense and I am beginning to agree that Whisper is a genius addition to the new FFVII. This video is the cherry on top that confirms my belief. The only thing I wish FFVII remake have done was to make Whisper appearance more subtle (I personally hate that scene when Hojo was carried away by them and he seemed not to care about that afterward) something like…nobody notice them until the very end of the game and then surprise! everything you have done was predestined by these things. Anyway, thanks for the video 🎉
Hey thank you! Yeah, I think they CAN stick the landing. The ingredients are there. Looking forward to seeing how it develops in rebirth. Thank you for watching this series!
I would love to see how the Calvanistic approach to looking at FFVII intersects the Kabbalistic viewpoint I've seen applied. Great video! I look forward to more!
*knowing Smirk*
gyat dang the timing of that intro with the big drop of the FF7 Intro theme was epic!
Real ones know how much work that took lol
@@profnoctis for sure, and it totally paid off! also, i apologize for the profanity, i’ve come to realize this is a little more of a family friendly channel haha i was just really hyped up, that music always gets me emotional. i’ll edit a bit
@@linkofhyrule6580 lol don’t worry about it at all. I play FF7R and FF16, so it can’t be completely family friendly, right?
One other way that the implementation of the Whispers makes sense is, they sort of help bridge the gap in the way that they could be used to explain some of the more fantastical plot points about the OG story. One big example that comes to mind is Cloud's fatal fall into the Sector 5 Church. With the "realistic" approach that they're taking in this Re trilogy, their implementation could be a way help ground things better.
Hey that’s a great point!
@@profnoctis As a wild side, someone pointed out that in CC: Reunion, when Cloud literally stabs Sephiroth in the back in the Nibelheim reactor flashback sneak attack, there is Whisper mist surrounding the wound in the cutscene. They argue that Sephiroth is still alive and that Cloud did not actually kill him in Remake trilogy now.
@@sonickchri now that’s a fascinating possibility
Great video. In my religious beliefs, I have always learned about the book of life and how life (some call it fate) is pre determined (karma and past lives) but we as humans (our bodies as a vessel) , and our souls are put into this world to experience what is set out for us. But as souls with free will, we have the ability to choose the destiny we want as long as we make the conscious effort to not coast through life. So this whole whispers thing always made sense to me in that way and I'm quite accepting of it even though the echo chamber online just seems to hate the whispers. I just don't know how to explain why I think whispers makes sense in ff7 world but I think u did an excellent job explaining in this video
Yes! I’m so glad it resonated with you here. I think those of us familiar with those religious concepts definitely have a leg up on understanding this stuff. Thanks for the comment!
What an incredible video, maaan...
I appreciate it!
Great video! I think that you should do a video like this, summarizing your thesis on 16. It would help a lot for those of us who didn't followed the 16 lectures
When I have time, it’s on my to do list. Thank you!
6:56 Very much so yes indeed. Good job! That earns you my sub and notification enabling.
Ah! Thanks!
Interesting !! Lifestream does get a variety of definitions... Marlene in AC intro, Intro in Evercrisis is different !! Also Tseng, Barrett, Hojo,Rufus, Red XIII, Bugganhagen all speak of the lifestream in similar but different LENSES...
RIGHT!
Super cool trivia and theological/philosophical insight! Much appreciated
You bet! Thanks for watching
When I studied Calvinistic theology almost two decades ago, I never thought I’d be seeing it applied to a Final Fantasy but hee-hoo 2024 here we go
Hahaha, yeah we’re out here shocking the world
Great Video! I absolutely loved the lens you showed!
I'm definitely gonna show this to everyone that doesn't like the whispers in the remake
Thank you so, so much. Very kind words
This was great, looking forward to watching more of these!
Thank you!
As intros go….. that was pretty epic
Mission accomplished lol
Thank you for the new "lenses" 😃 excellent video! 🙌🏻
Thanks for watching!
Im glad I found this. Thanks for your work!
Thank you!
So honest question…Biggs, Jesse and Wedge all die at the end of the Midgar section in the original. I believe it is implied that all of them live by the end of remake (pt. 1). How does this mesh with the narrative that the whispers are trying to preserve the flow of time and destiny since that very clearly deviates from the original storyline?
Gosh, awesome questions. Sounds like you’re ready to see my second video. It releases Tuesday! :)
Very very well made video. Great work!!
Thanks so much for watching
@@profnoctis absolutely! It was refreshing not seeing a video pushing wild stuff. You did a great job. Thanks again!! Subscribed.
@@dangy785 I appreciate it. I look forward to sharing the next one with you
3:45 this made my day
Oh good!
I’m a Calvinist pastor who loves gaming and has FF as my second favorite franchise ever. Never did I expect to hear those two topics in the same video. Can we be friends?😂
Seems predestined to me. Nice to meet you!
Stellar video!
Hey thanks pal
Wow, awesome video. Great way to celebrate FF7 and get hyped up for Rebirth 🎉
Ain’t no gettin off this train we’re on. Hype!
Well I just subscribed. This was great! Also, your cadence in speaking is wonderful. Keep it up!
Thank you so much for the thoughtful reply. I think that adds a lot to the discussion- predestination can be both religious and nonreligious.
What a wonderful thesis, very enlightening insights!
Thanks for watching!
Damn man this framing has got me MESSED UP. The idea of Jenova potentially messing with the memory of the planet has me wondering if there even is another world/timeline, or if the knowledge of the planet is just messed up.
Fantastic video, absolutely love it.
YESSS. That’s EXACTLY what I wonder, too!!
This was incredibly well done
Thanks! Look forward to part 3 of the series releasing on Sunday!
Man This makes me sooooo pumped for Rebirth!!!
Hopefully I’ll make the wait go by faster!
Coming back to this after having some time to marinate (and not be working at the same time, lol). Although I'm no longer a professing Christian myself, it did bring back some old memories of a fairly vibrant debate in the tiny Pentecostal church I attended in my late teens with regard to the intersection of free will and predestination. The loose agreement IIRC was that it boiled down to the extent to which that governance piece was being exercised, but that ultimately, this life/ world/ cosmos isn't ours anyway, so it was considered reasonable that there would be constraints or limits on scope of what we as a people or as individuals might think to do. A scope of allowable volition, if you will.
With regard to the Lifestream and the Whispers, it's very easy to see how a similar concept applies--volition still exists within a certain spectrum of variables from which choices might be made, thereby giving the characters' choices some sense of independent meaning, but there are events, actions, etc. which are outside of that scope, and that's where Planet's pretty much just, "Hey, no. That's not for you. Stay on the road. Pick any lane, but no off-roading."
Anyhoo, thanks for making this. Very excited to see what comes next!
Yes! Yeah, I think this vid may recall a lot of those memories for former youth group kids lol. But you’re exactly right. This is THE question that Calvinism has to confront imo. Thanks for your thoughtful comment
This was very informative and insightful and provided a new perspective for me. Unrelated but do you consider yourself religious or are you merely interested in learning about it?
I’m religious. I’m a Christian, personally. But I teach religious studies and find an appreciation in religions, mythologies, and philosophy.
Damn great video my man! This cleared up a lot of confusion for me. Even though i am not religious at all those analogies make total sense. I always saw the Whispers as interesting nods to the original and just a way to expand the story but they actually make total sense now! Can't wait to see your other videos!
Ahhhh! That fires me up! I’m so glad it helped. Get hyped for the next ones!
The Certra weren't religious... The things they spoke about was real in the game. You don't have to have "Faith" when stuff is real.
Yeah, I am using “religious” in the same way as spiritual or “in tune with a hidden reality.” Good critique.
This was really cool! Thank you so much
You're so welcome!
This is a great analysis and hypothesis.
FF7R trilogy is probably Seohiroth's and Jenova's rematch against the livestream itself. They need to do things differently so they can win against the predestination in this timeline.
Aerith and the party is here to stop it.
I am probably more of a one linear timeline/no time travel kind of guy (like I try to explain using Aerith and Seph reading the planet’s foreknowledge), but yeah, this is a strong possibility!
I thoroughly enjoyed this. definitely worth the subscribe. I'm just so hyped about the new game coming out soon.
Thanks for saying that. We’re all trying to make the wait bearable
@profnoctis when ff7 remake came out. I took a couple days off work to play it straight through. I just finished OG to get the full original story again and now I'm on to reunion and MAAAAYBE remake depending on how long it takes me to finish reunion. The whispers dynamic definitely has made the remake trilogy story interesting because now we get to see how it changes from the original
@@fonzdreamsbig agreed. Keeps us on our toes
I think the predestined course is a recurring theme in FF games. 8 essentially a loop I think 9 also Zidane is created for something. 15 Noctis is the true king that the Astral(God) choose and 16 Clive is a vessel for Ultima (a higher being). But it is interesting that the whispers playing an active role preserving the course of destiny.
Great points. I’m a big fan of “breaking the cycle” as a theme of this series, if you’ve seen my “what is FF” video
Nooo don’t make me like the whispers!! Fine, I’ll watch
hahaha, give me your full response afterward!
Very interesting.
I thought they were based on Greek mythology because I played the game in German and they are called Moirai (Moiren) there.
Big similarities to the Moirai too. Predestination and fate is in nearly every ideology, though it’s seldom called the exact word.
Awesome analysis! You deserve more views!
Glad you think so!
Sephiroth is soo strong he went back in time to change the story
Possibly, but I think I’ve offered a counter option without time travel.
What’s really interesting to think is that by denying the fate/destiny given to you by the planet, that could also be an act that was predestined for you to do in order to accomplish the planet’s will…face it, if you believe there is predestination, you cannot actually defy it because it could just be that that was also a predetermined action for your life
UNLESS you somehow tapped into knowledge of it. Predestination only works with free will if those with free will aren’t privy to it. That’s what makes FF7’s story so interesting. Sephiroth and Aerith gain awareness of it!
@@profnoctis But what I'm saying is that the governing mind of the lifestream could have predestined them to gain that awareness to give them the perspective they needed to accomplish specific outcomes.
Think of the first Matrix. The oracle gives Neo exactly what he needs to accomplish his role, even though he didn't accept it at first. Same as when he broke the vase and she says, "Would you still have broken the vase if I didn't say anything?"
Either you have free will, or you don't. Even if you have the perception of exacting your free will on destiny, you can never know that it wasn't the "destiny agent" that intended you to act accordingly to let you think you had overcome a predetermined fate...because the fate you ultimately ended with was also predetermined.
@@dead2me82 sure. I think it’s a difference in understanding the deity- in this case the lifestream- as being a static deity or one with agency. Meaning, if you believe it’s static, and that all of this was also according to plan, then this perspective checks out. Otherwise, the deity pulls some emergency levers to help regain control. In this lens, Sephiroth has hijacked the will of the planet, so the planet is taking emergency measures. It’s a response to Seph’s action. BUT, if the planet already knew Seph’s plan, it’s possible that all of this was preordained anyway. This is just as frustrating irl religions as it is in game lol
@@profnoctisVery true. You mentioned Calvanism as an example of Predestination. A Calvinist would say that all things, good or bad, are predetermined by God...not necessarily that God is the one performing the good or bad things, but He has predestined them to happen in order to accomplish His will.
As for FFVII, it would appear that the lifestream has agency as it can create the weapons (Ruby, Emerald, etc.) for the protection of the planet. More importantly, the Lifestream also created the White Materia (Holy) that Aerith is carrying, given to her by her mother. It would seem that that materia pre-dates Sephiroth and his plans, thus showing that the lifestream knew in advance that the materia would be needed to protect itself in the future. This would be the key factor that would cause me to think that Sephiroth was not acting against the will of the lifestream, but in accordance to the plans of the lifestream. Just my $.02
great analysis man, awesome video.
Thanks for watching!
Loved it! You my friend have earned a subscribe!
Thanks!!
Just how I stumbled across this video, due to it sharing by the man who wrote books about real world mythological influences on ff7. I say to you too, thank you. Using Ff7 as a medium, is the easiest and fastest way to entertain my curiosity and explain and educate me in a medium that is both easily identifiable and rememorable. Though something near, dear and special to my heart. It both entertains and educates, in the best way possible.
Ahhh my buddy, Mo! I’ll have to extend my thanks. I appreciate you saying that. Such a fun game to dissect
@profnoctis it helps with my gf. Adamant in her view I might have ADHD. So, teaching me through ff7 helps the lesson stick to a man who has 13 Sephiroth dolls scattered across his apartment. I learned alot about Norse and Greek myths. Now I learned about religion through you.
@@hirowinglessangel right on! We have a good time around here
I’m kinda glad my posts back whining about the whispers are gone. When the remake first came out I loved it, but I absolutely overreacted regarding them (Wah Wah the ending is bad! Blah blah Barret blah) acting as if the original was some sacred text that must never be altered. I hate that I ever acted like one of those fans, but nowadays I just eagerly await part 2 and take it as it comes, I’ve grown to like remake’s battle system just as much as the original; which I never thought would happen.
I think a lot of us had that initial, guttural reaction
This is all Aertith re-living live :) She's the last of the guardians remember. And the future isn't predetermined but a collection of potentialities :)
That’s a possibility! But I also am curious if it’s just her foreknowledge at play.
Knowing how introspective the developers are... particularly in Japan, the fanbase analogy makes so much sense to me. The biggest challenge for the devs was the legend of FF7 and extremely critical and passionate fans. The Whispers are a really clever analogy for the fans themselves.... they resist change and want the game to be a certain way; everytime Cloud is about to veer off course, the Whispers try to force the story to unfold as it originally did. Remake is about the player wrestling Cloud's fate away from Destiny, and leading into his Rebirth... the game has a big open world, and you can navigate in all directions, which is in stark contrast to Remake, where you're very much on the rails, with 'predestined' outcomes... from A to B, with the camera zoomed close in, quite claustrophobic at times....not anymore though; as the voiceover in the trailer says, we broke the shackles of destiny. Man Rebirth is going to be so good!
That’s true, it can be interpreted that way. I think the whispers can be interpreted in a lot of ways. Cannot WAIT to experience that open world.
- There is no redemption for Sephiroth, nor does he seek to free himself from Jenova, both work in synergy to carry out Sephiroth's plans that coincide with Jenova's.
- Sephiroth has knowledge of what will happen in the future if everything had remained the same.
a) Sephiroth seeks to do the same as in the OG but in a different way.
b) What is the union of the two worlds? What does Sephiroth want?
Sephiroth seeks to do the same, manipulate Cloud, obtain the black matter, summon a meteorite, cause a wound to the planet and be in the middle to absorb all that energy and knowledge, become a God and navigate the cosmos doing the same.
The situation is that by having this knowledge of the future, he knows that there are things he did that led him to lose (although he can return as long as Cloud exists and possesses Jenova's cells), for example, murdering Aerith since she was able to summon Sacred and then direct the life current to expel meteorite, but he also needs to kill Aerith to continue the manipulation towards Cloud, so Sephiroth in Remake made his first chess move, and that was, manipulating the group so that they faced the herald of destiny and that wish to change the destination that was shown to them (partially and obviously at their convenience) in all the images during the game.
This he did and here I play with this theory, Sephiroth managed to defeat the herald of destiny (a weapon of the planet) and by being able to create "a correction" in destiny, he made one, but incomplete, he generated a singularity throughout Midgar, where all those who are alive coexist, with those who should be dead but who remain alive thanks to the defeat of the herald. This incomplete correction meant that there were two of each main character (Cloud, Aerith, Barret, Nanaki, Tifa) but they were left in a coma to avoid a paradox (When Sephiroth kills Aerith he will wake up in his bed next to Zack), these who They were left in a coma, they lived the same as in the Remake, but without Cloud, bomb mission, plate fall, assault on the Shinra building, escape from Midgar, but the tornadoes that appeared at the intersection of destiny singularity, materialized in that other line and left the characters that appear in that trailer in a coma, fainted.
Sephiroth follows the same plan as in the original, but by killing Aerith this time, he will not reach the lifestream where he can use his full potential to use against meteorite, but rather he makes her wake up in her other body without having the same powers. and perhaps without being able to summon Sacred, which causes the same shock to Cloud since they will think that she is still dead and can continue with her manipulation, and her mental breakdown. And by having Zack alive he can also use it against Cloud to diminish and break him, knowing that only because of his dead friend did he manage to be what he was, practically making him look like an imposter and someone who could not save his two friends in any way. .
The meeting of the two worlds is that, the unification of the world of OG-REMAKE with the world without destiny in which Zack and Biggs lived, being able to proceed with their same objectives, although it is likely that Sephiroth angel will appear anyway, but sephiroth He seeks to rebuild his entire body from the crystal of the northern crater and return to life with all his potential.
Grades:
-This theory can work either with an alternate timeline, or with the lifestream theory, but it materializes and is not left alone in the spiritual world.
-One question that remains is, if all the inhabitants of Midgar were affected by the incomplete correction, what does this mean, that they have the memories of everything that happened in the remake but without Cloud, or only Zack and Biggs have those different memories, The interaction that Zack has with Elmyra, Kyrie and Marlene will reveal this to us, if they recognize Cloud, if they do not recognize him, it is because all of Midgar was left with these altered memories, if they recognize Cloud, then the remake remains the same for everyone. the inhabitants of Midgar, unless all those who managed to see the whispers still have the memories of the remake and also those who received energy from Aerith such as Marlene and Nanaki, in that case Biggs will also reveal to us knowing how he remembers the events of the remake, although they may leave us wondering until part 3.
-If Sephiroth's plan ends badly, he has his last card, which is to make Cloud decide if she wants to face fate or not, what does he mean by this? that in the end if he joins Sephiroth, his friends (including Zack and Aerith) will be able to stay alive but without Cloud or let the reality where they live exist but with an uncertain destiny where the meteorite does crash into Gaia, or the other thing is that Cloud defeats Sephiroth and the correction of destiny is achieved and those who should be dead (Zack, Aerith, Biggs) disappear.
This is a really cool idea. I’m really curious about it. Especially how Marlene, Elmyra, and Kyrie will react to cloud.
Very interesting and well put together video. And you’re handsome too, subbed! 😂
lol appreciate it
Great video. Thank you.
Thank YOU
You completely missed the idea that the Whispers we see in the Remake are from tainted lifestream, tainted by Jenova and Sephiroth. Whispers look like the hooded robe men going for reunion, and harbringer is a purple monster, party also fights with 3 jenova/seph creations straight from Advent Children. All the whispers then combine to Sephiroth from AC, which further strentgen that view. The tainted whispers and lifestream is the main motivation for Aerith, so it's not a sudden change of mind out of nowhere, we don't even know what were her plans, although it might true that she realized this at this point that lifestream is tainted and she can no longer trust its guidance.
Question is why would Sephiroth want this to happen as he opens the portal by himself and attracts the party to kill the whispers harbringer and his tainted representation from AC?
I think it’s when she realizes the lifestream is being tainted that she steps in. That there’s something wrong, even if she doesn’t know all the details of it. That’s why her announcement to Sephiroth “you’re wrong” is so critical
Outstanding presentation and insight. 👍👍 from a fellow Alabamian.
Heck yeah. We’re out here representin
I interpreted FFVII as being a cycle that repeats over and over. Remake I saw as Sephiroth’s attempt to “remake” the timeline in his own way, instead of the whispers holding everything completely in check.
Yeah that would definitely align with my “what is final fantasy” video. I do think there’s a cycle, though it’s more a cycle of souls and memories, moving in and out of the lifestream. But I’m also not a big time travel theorist for this game. It’s possible, but I think there are other ways to make sense. Either way, we’ll see! Thank you for your insight
Amazing 🤩
Thank you!
i need to replay retro FF7. -towtansua
Good idea. Seems like a lot is gonna add up in rebirth from the OG.
This was awesome. And, phenomenally well put together. It reminded me of a college thesis. Or, a new hire employee video 🤣💯 It was very well done.
Congratulations 🎊 👏🏽
My only question out of all of this would have to be how does Red XIII (13) / Nanaki know about the Whispers? I'm sure Bugenhagen has something to do with this for sure. I can't wait to get these answers.
I'd also like to add that, unlike Aerith, Sephiroth actually was submerged into the lifestream. That's how he becomes crystallized within Materia at the Northern Cave.
I feel that by doing this, he not only knows what the lifestream entails but (possibly) has gained power from the lifestream, as well. Of course, he definitely gained knowledge, as well.
He and Aerith both can see the outcome(s) of the future. But, could it be possible that Sephiroth sees something Aerith does not and can not?
I can't wait to find out. 👋🏼
I agree here. Also, with Red, he mentions that “when Aerith touched me,” he was given knowledge of the whispers.
@@profnoctis I totally forgot all about that part. That's true. I'm eager to see what happens in Rebirth. I'm really looking forward to it.
Warrior of Hype sent me. Subbed.
That guy’s awesome. Thanks for dropping by!
Such a great análisis 🎉
Thanks luris. Great to see you in chat tonight!
I’m in! Subscribed!
Thanks!
I think it's reaching a little to go so in-depth into certain christian theology, it's quite narrow, especially as it's an eastern game which leans more into ideas like impermanence and reincarnation which are a stark departure from more middle-eastern / western theology about achieving eternal salvation. I think christian theology is at odds with the themes of FFVII as it views the "everlasting" as a virtue and a goal, whereas lasting forever is positively dystopian in FFVII. The theme is more about accepting the mortality of life, and the normal course is for souls to dissolve back into the lifestream, not to exist eternally. In fact Sephiroth's desire for eternal life is what makes him a villain. The Promised Land in FFVII is specifically said to not be a real place, but rather fulfilment and contentedness with one's legacy and acceptance of ones mortality, and Sephiroth's inability to let himself become a memory one day, is why he can't find the promised land / happiness as he leaves only a dark legacy behind, and can only prolong his existence by tormenting the minds of others.
The planet's natural state appears to be a mortal one, and so not omnipotent per se. I think it has more in common with things like hinduism tbh, with the cycle of creation and destruction (Genesis, Angeal and Sephiroth also potentially linked to the 3 deities.) It must die in order to be cleansed and reborn, much like the souls in the lifestream. Extrapolating the life cycle of an individual up to the scale of the cosmos. Basically I don't think you can just look at one theology, as FF is a mish-mash of many different mythologies, Norse mythology being important too such as ragnarok and the end of the world.
But maybe you were just talking about predestination just for that one aspect of this theme of fate in FFVII, I just felt like adding onto that, about the limitations of reaching too far.
I think Zack's survival is a way for the developers to explore the power of free will, specifically how Sephiroth survived melding with the lifestream, and how Aerith likely will also. And of course to explore free will they must also explore the nature of destiny. I think the idea of the Whispers have been around since at least Crisis Core and Genesis bloviating about Loveless, with passages about the wind on the water's surface. The water being the lifestream, and the whispers being the winds of fate.
Great points. And true, FF7 is not a perfect analogue to any Christian theology, nor is it a perfect parallel to Norse mythology or Hinduism. However, I think using any of these as lenses helps us think about the game’s narrative in a different light. For instance, my next video will look at completely different elements of other religious and philosophical traditions. Whether a religious reading, a gendered or queer reading, a philosophical, or a practical reading- I think it’s always fascinating to use lenses to think about narratives through different lenses to see what we can deduce. Thanks for the comment, and I hope that clears up my stance.
@@profnoctis I forgot to say in the post, good video btw. Thumbs up from me.
@@ash_yt0 Preciate it!
@@profnoctis Came because I faintly remember making the above post. And thinking about Rebirth now...
Sephiroth: "All made whole. Forever."
Aerith: "There's no such thing as 'forever'."
Sephiroth: "Ah... but there will be."
In my post I said "In fact Sephiroth's desire for eternal life is what makes him a villain." I'm sure I wrote a ton of stuff that was a bad prediction, but this seemed to be pretty spot on.
But equally I think that there is a heavenly quality to the idea of the promised land too, since they appear to be building it up as the place where souls find total peace. Which comes in the form of their dreams and hopes being fulfilled. I think Aerith's promised land, is ironically to NOT get what she wants, being the selfless person she is. She wants to be together with Cloud, that is her dream, and that is the dream they share at the start of Chapter 14. But she has a much greater wish than even that. As you approach her while she's praying at the altar, she says that her ultimate hope is to keep her friends safe. And because she is destined to die, she has to choose between these two dreams. Be with Cloud, or see him safe. And that is what is represented when the flowers die in her dream world, and she sends Cloud on his way to live his life without her.
I would absolutely love it if they had a scene in Part 3 of Avalanche, Zack, Aerith all together eating pizza at Seventh Heaven, talking about how all their dreams are being fulfilled, and thanking a bewildered Cloud for something he hasn't done, Biggs is excited about the orphans being looked after, Wedge thanks him for fixing up the old bar and serving his delicious pizza etc. and then Aerith takes Cloud for a stroll and tells him that she's so happy to see him again, but he can't stay here forever. And with the implication being that all these dreams are only made possible and fulfilled, if Cloud goes back to the real world, because it's Cloud who will fulfil their dreams from them in his own life. Cloud will be their promised land. In Advent Children they do re-open the bar, they look after Denzel and the orphans, etc. And Tifa and Cloud will be together, which is what Aerith wants, because she wants Tifa to have the relationships she never could. IMO that is the perfect way to end FFVIIR but who knows what they'll do. The final fulfilment of Cloud's life will probably be to die, so that he and Aerith can be reunited one last time in death, which is perhaps what the final scene is about with Nanaki and the overgrown Midgar. A line where Aerith explains they will see each other again, but heavily implying that it's the last thing she wants for him. To me that is a good bittersweet ending, in that you see all the characters happy in one final scene in the promised land before they say their goodbyes and stop the Meteor. We've seen Sephiroth's dream world (Zack's world of despair.) And we saw Aerith's dream world (her date with Cloud.) And I think (maybe?) Cloud's dream world... is ultimately THE real world. And the promised land is Cloud's life. That is why Cloud is such an important character. I could imagine that is why the lifestream springs to action in the end, to protect all the hopes and dreams of the lifestream that have been passed onto Cloud.
I just figured my prediction earlier was pretty good so maybe I'm on a roll, and had some thoughts on what may come next. Knowing SE I'm so so wrong. As for what 7 seconds from the end means, is anyone's guess. Whether to stay or go from the promised land, perhaps? Whether to deliver the final blow against shirtless Sephiroth? Aerith did say that he can only be defeated by a Cetra. Many possibilities.
@@ash_yt0 I actually adore this idea. I think it’s very plausible and I’d love to see it!
You could so be the real life Cloud… 😅
May or may not be a cosplay in the works
Thank you for bringing up the topic of predestination! I’m surprised more people haven’t. It was interesting learning about Calvinist thought on the topic. Great video! This might be long winded but wanted to give a Muslim perspective/lens on the topic.
Islam also contains predestination, called “Qadr”, as well as free will. It is similar to the Calvinist interpretation in that it also represents these concepts with tangible metaphors called “the Pen”, “the Preserved Tablet” and each individual person’s record of deeds, although the exact nature of these things are known only by God. It is also similar in that a believer reaches a level of peace when they have submitted their will to God’s will. Islam takes a middle path between the free will and predestination debate. There is an understanding that God is the Creator of time and knows everything that has and will happen. There is also the understanding that things are only allowed to happen if God wills it. But humans are also responsible for their actions and should make decisions understanding there is cause and effect that they have limited control over. There are certain things that are immutable, for example when you are born and when you die, but we are taught that we can change our destiny with our prayers, supplications, and good deeds. If God wills it, a course that we are on that has already been written will be “erased” and we will be put on a new course based on our actions and God’s will. We ultimately have to make the decision to do those good deeds though, and since, again God knows everything, He knows whether or not we will and the corresponding possibilities resulting from those decisions. I hope I explained it accurately enough lol. And allahu ‘alam (this means “God knows best”- it’s a phrase Muslims say out of humility both when we don’t have the full breadth of knowledge on a topic or if the topic involves the “Unseen”- the realm of knowledge known fully only by God- of which “Qadr” falls under).
Taking this to the original FF7, it makes me think of Aerith’s decision to go to the Forgotten Capitol to pray for Holy. And the party’s decision to risk their lives to stop Sephiroth/ free Aerith’s prayer. Their actions were correct, but they’re human so their control over the effect of their actions was limited. However, because of their actions and Aerith’s prayer, the planet’s will allowed the Lifestream to come forth and assist Holy in stopping Meteor. I know there was/is debate whether or not the planet decided to let the humans live, but I never really understood that debate… I mean it ends with children laughing lol.
Taking it to Remake, I think it’s like you said. The Lifestream contains the knowledge of everything that will happen and *could* happen, and Sephiroth- who is inside the Lifestream- gained access to that knowledge. That knowledge can include future possibilities that have not happened yet because the decisions have not been made by the humans involved!
In Remake, it’s interesting that the vision of Meteor that Cloud sees in the Shinra simulator scene doesn’t have the Lifestream surrounding it. The Advent Children opening version of that same scene does, and the other visions- namely the ones in Chapter 18- came from the Advent Children opening and are identical. If I’m not mistaken, Holy is not even shown around it in the Remake version. So it raises the question, is Sephiroth showing Cloud a possibility that he wants to happen? A possibility where Aerith doesn’t pray for Holy, or at least not successfully.
Obviously predestination takes a different form in FF7’s universe since this is not the Abrahamic conception of God, but rather the Planet is both a deity and a macro-organism concerned with its own survival since it’s susceptible to manipulation/death both by Shinra and Sephiroth. I am also not 100% convinced that the Whispers that we saw in Remake and that we’ve seen in the Rebirth trailers are purely agents of the Planet’s will. Looking at it just visually they’re literally black cloaked figures reminiscent of the Sephiroth copies, and we know from the wider universe that the Lifestream can be corrupted by Jenova cells and even by extreme negative emotions, which would likely be a problem in Remake’s version of events since Hojo has been experimenting on people for over 15 years, well before the Nibelheim incident, and there are more Sephiroth copies in Remake’s version. I think there is more to the Whispers that the later games will reveal. So with that in mind, I don’t know if Aerith was actually defying the Planet’s will or if she was defying Sephiroth’s control over the Planet’s will. Or if the “Destiny” they fought and freed themselves of was the destiny of Meteor being stopped by the Lifestream/Holy or if it was the destiny that Sephiroth was trying to impose.
I love love love this. Thank you so much for your insights, and you’re right. The Islamic lens is a super helpful one to understand this too. (Can I put this in my discord?? They’ll eat it up! Also feel free to join it if you’d like. Link in my main about me page).
The whispers do look as if they’re corrupted. But I’m not sure if they are fully corrupted before the end of remake or not. I’m really curious what rebirth will tell us about all of this. Thanks again!!
@@profnoctis yeah feel free! And thanks for the invite, yeah I will check it out :) Also super excited to get some answers and probably some more questions lol
Well done.
Thank you!
This was great, a fantastic presentation. Background music goes a little bit too hard though, sometimes drowns your voice out a bit even.
Thanks for the comment! I’m still working on my sound editing skills
I'm speechless. Bravo incredible job on your video all the details and research all of it it's all making sense now. I hope you get more views I really do more people need to watch your video. Great job on breaking it down and explaining it I hope Maximilian dood gets to see this. I don't know how to tag him or share this to him he has a huge following base and your video needs exposure it really does
Wow you really flatter me. Thanks for watching and I’m glad you like it!
Ayy i'm not the only one that gets it anymore!
I cant wait for rebirth
Same
This is the first time since playing Remake that I've had hope that the Remake trilogy won't end up being a narrative disaster. The idea that Sephiroth traveling the Lifestream after "dying" was essentially the catalyst for the Whispers appearing makes a lot of sense and, while I'm not convinced that's the angle Square is going for, it would be a scenario in which the core themes and story remain intact despite the changes.
As far as predestination goes, Viking Age Scandinavians also believed fate was predetermined (this was true for the gods, as well) and, given the wealth of influence from Norse mythology, it's possible the devs were influenced by that.
Hey that’s a huge compliment! Thank you!
And yeah, they seem to have crafted a hybrid of multiple predestination thoughts. It’s pretty rad. You see anything specific from the Scandinavian thought?
@@profnoctis Not in particular, but I haven't really thought much about it from that lens, either. Viking Age Scandinavians lived in an honor/shame society, and trying to subvert or change your fate fell on the dishonor side. A bit ironic, given basically everything Odin does is in the vain effort of avoiding his own fate (to die at Ragnarok). If the trilogy ultimately takes the "fate can't be changed" approach, there may be more to dissect there. Really, though, Square just seems to love their destiny/fate motifs, so I'm not sure how much it's influenced by any particular belief system/culture.
@@ffviimusic2319 yeah that’s fair. Great points here
Liked nd subscribed to your channel!!
Thanks my friend