What Happens If You Don't Use PVC Cleaner or Primer? FIND OUT!
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- Опубликовано: 29 июл 2023
- Wondering what's the best way, or the best method for joining PVC pipe? Curious how strong a PVC connection will be without using cleaner or primer? If so, then this video is one that you'll definitely want to see! I'll be cementing, or "solvent welding" plumbing Schedule 40 PVC pipe fittings together to see how well they hold up under extreme pressure after curing for 24 hours. Of course the pressure used for testing in this video, is 20x higher than what you'd have in your home. Enjoy the video!
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I enjoy every one of your videos and this one is fantastic! Thanks for another great video!!
I am doing a little project thank you for this information , I really needed it.
Glad you enjoyed the video! Be sure to check out my pvc tips playlist as well and share. Thank you
the cap/cement applied is creating a stress point towards the end of the pipe. all it would take is a slight angle of cut or non-uniform cap to create a zone where the pressuer tries to escape first. Very cool to see! thanks for the video.
I've found that joints without primer are more prone to failure with vibration. I first faced this with sprinkler lines alongside a service drive where delivery vans and passenger vehicles drove dozens of times a day. Every week or two I'd dig up a leak and most of the time it was a joint that I could just pull apart, sand, prime and reglue.
Another failure was on an irrigation pump with 2-1/2in inlet bushed up to 4in and a 2in outlet that went up to 3in, into a 4in filter assembly, than back to 3in to go underground. Every joint came apart within 3 years after I moved in. On the inlet they would start sucking air and the pump would cavitate. On the outlet side the pipe made a 180deg turn above ground and sometimes the pressure of a joint coming apart (70psi) would blow the pipe hard enough to break it. But again, other than when violent disassembly broke pieces, I was able to reuse the parts. After regluing everything, the next 10 years were problem free.
The previous owners of my house must not have believed in primer. Every year I dig up a leak or two and find an improper joint has started leaking. I've even found a few joints that didn't get any glue, including an elbow on the main line to my septic tank.
I have a suspicion whoever did that job probably allowed the cement to dry too much before sliding the fittings in. Those are the connections that I've seen Pull-A-Part like you described.
probably old glue that sat for years and they still used it. I save that glue for electrical conduit that doesn't have any pressure in it at all
This is brand new, perfectly clean pipe. I bet the results would be different on old pipe that had been buried in the ground, or in other dirty areas like a metal shop where they are likely to get grease and all kinds of other stuff on them. Also, the city water at my house was 100 psi. We are right by the water tower.
Yes. Old pipe that has been exposed to UV light can become brittle. My money would still be on the pipe failing and not the solvent welded connection because the PVC fitting is reinforcing or making the pipe thicker in the area where it's cemented.
This test doesn’t really show the true weakness of pvc. Old pipes, vibration, UV damage, dirty installs. This only shows up after time and cycles. This is where a better joint shines in my opinion and experience.
Great test! Thanks!
Thank you so much. I had heard that using the primer wasnt necessary, maybe just clean with alcohol. Your video provided great comfort for the times I forgot the primer!!
Very cool! You've got a new subscriber!
I enjoyed this as well.
Very cool vid! Thanks!
Glad you liked the video! Also be sure to check out my pvc tips video playlist and share. Thank you
Great demo Doug, I've often said in our world (telecoms/data, and you would includes electrical too) that priming conduit is a waste of our time and money, we are not pressurizing the thing to jam copper and fibre in, yet some telco infra depts stipulate must be primed... pointless, and your vid shows it, I've gotta good mind to send the link to the boffins in govt regulatory in this country and ask them to prove why we need to use primer :)
not everyone can be convinced by a good argument. they might be getting kickbacks from the manufacturers to write the code the way it is. it's called "regulatory capture".
or it's just ego... once a dogma gets in a brain it's not so easy to get a person to admit that he has been fooled.
Brilliant!
You have a nice content, thank you
Interesting test. Nice job! I have heard from plumbers that mechanical stress over time like from being underground or in a wall makes them fail also. CPVC is also said to be less stable.
The only thing I noticed with PVC, is overtime when exposed to UV light it can become brittle. Thanks for watching!
@@electronicsNmoreand to minimize sun exposure they always say to paint your pipes with any sort of leftover latex paint you may have around the house.
Hello....Great test!
A thought, since the schedule 40 pipe is failing, if schedule 80 electrical pvc was the pipe of choice, the glue test may give the glued joints more of a test. Not that this is not a great test, but I would be very interested in seeing the glue joint fail. One thing, the explosions should be more violent, and entertaining. I am an electrical contractor and use schedule 80 often, especially where excavation may occur in the future, it is almost impossible to break. It also serms a little more ductile. You and Todd (project farm) are my 2 favorite RUclips channels.
If I use schedule 80 PVC pipe and fittings, the pressures that I can achieve will be much higher, but schedule 80 water lines are rarely used. There most common is schedule 40. I get your point though. The cemented fittings make the area where it's solvent welded much thicker, which makes it harder to break in that area.
Nice one, Scott. I've always used both the cleaner and glue. Good to know there are effective alternatives. A graph of the burst pressures would have been nice, but if each pipe bursted beyond normal application pressure, I guess it doesn't matter. I wonder if the deeper submersion end is why they all blew there. A Mechanical Engineer might be able to answer that one. Seems that pressure would equalize inside, but maybe the pumping action forced a higher pressure further to the end. Great job!
Thanks for this. Interesting results. I have seen guys glue fittings on pipe that had mud or dirt on it and didn't even wipe it off. I wonder how that would compare.
Great job I would like to see the difference between Pex A B and C hose
I'm Maintenance for some commercial properties, a reoccurring issue is leaking at glue joints that weren't primed. Primed joints done at the same time have shown no leaking.
Wow, never expected that. I always assumed the weakness would be in the joint. Now why it blows up at the end...interesting question.
The most important thing to ensure a strong adhesive connection on PVC pipe fittings is the quarter turn, demonstrated perfectly in this video. It distributes the adhesive evenly over the fitting/pipe connection. If you have a very dirty pipe (covered in grease or sewage for instance) acetone will help the adhesive make a clean and strong connection. PVC pipe is used in industry for low pressure pneumatic piping (up to around 88 psi or 6 bar). If the PVC pipe is pressure rated it is printed on the pipe. Do not assume a cheap PVC pipe will hold up to more than 35 psi (or 2.5 bar) because water connections don't go above that limit. Small diameter pipe can handle higher pressures as shown in this video, but you don't want to be near it when it blows! Air can take your fingers off, no joke.
Full coverage even without the turn usually works fine.
Another interesting testing video eNm! I was expecting different results. Now I wonder what would happen if the walls of the piping were a thicker diameter?
If I use schedule 80, then the pressure would be much higher in the pipe. I would also have to use schedule 80 fittings.
I have an LG room air conditioner that I haven't used for a couple of years, now the power button on the unit doesn't work, it feels stuck, I'm saying that because on a similar unit that I have I can feel a little click when I press the power button with my finger. Is there a way to fix the button or to bypass it somehow, the unit was barely used even, it would be a shame to throw it away. I know power gets into the unit because I can use the timer button and it will display numbers from 1 to 12. I know this is not an AC repair video, but if you read this message and answer my question I would greatly appreciate it.
My first videos are about using pvc without any glue. Pex too!
inspectors like to see purple,,,nice demo
Yes
I recently replaced a cpvc pipe under my house and I installed a gauge cause you know, data is fun. Well after I had already turned the water on and was looking at the gauge showing 45 psi, I decided to do a once over to make sure I didn’t miss a glue joint. I DID!! I couldn’t believe it. 1 I was so happy I decided to do the once over and 2 you don’t even have to glue the piece’s together for a drip free fit😂
I wonder how differently electrical PVC conduit would test. Would it blow up at 100PSI? 1000?
For fun, it'd be interesting to see non cement testing, like using a syringe to apply acetone to the fitting to try to melt the parts together.
I've installed about 2.5 sprinkler systems, and only ever used straight cement, and never had an issue. Earlier this year I had a really weird experience with PVC fittings. A joint failed on my main line before the valve box (which was installed by a landscaper when the house was built ~7 years ago). It's like the glue in the joint suddenly gave way, and it started leaking. When I dug it up, and turned the water on again, it was leaking way more. When I cut out the bad section of pipe to replace it, the joint literally fell apart with no force required at all. There was glue residue bonded to the pipe and to the inside of the fitting, but the glue somehow failed and there was no hold between the 2 sides. I went to the closest hardware store and got some Charlotte brand fittings, and I had a piece of charlotte pipe that was only a couple of years old already. I used Oatey medium clear PVC cement (older can, but still good), and glued the replacement fittings in place. I left it for at least 30 minutes before I turned the water back on, and when I did, it was dripping at one of the new fittings. I went back to the store, and got more Charlotte fittings, and a fresh can of Christies Red Hot Blue Glue, cut out the new stuff I had just glued in, and re-did it again with the new glue. I cleaned everything with acetone before gluing this time, and I left it to cure overnight. Turned the water on the next day, and it's DRIPPING AGAIN. Went to a different hardware store (Lowes), got different brand fittings (Lowes fittings don't even have a brand on them now), cut it all out a 3rd time, and re-glued it again with christies red hot blue glue. I also cleaned everything with acetone before gluing this time. Waited a while, turned the water on, and no leaks. WTH? A bad batch of Charlotte brand fittings? How could 2 fittings freshly glued of theirs fail, and the one from Lowes work the first time? Very odd...
Most people don't work the cement into the PVC enough to create a good connection. When you do that, the surface of the PVC softens a little bit and allows the solvent welded connection to fuse together better.
Bad fittings are definitely a thing... not so much in developed countries but I spent some time in Costa Rica and down there all the domestically made pipe and fittings have bad tolerances, so that even if you do it correctly there is not that tight "interference fit" that cause the PVC to weld properly. Or the fittings will crack. At first I thought it was bad installation causing so many failures but from examining several of them over time, I realized it was the materials.
I think you got a batch of bad fittings. Either dimensionally they were off, or maybe the plastic itself was not formulated correctly.
I'd guess it tends to fail at the end cap because of a water hammer type of effect. The pressure will have to rise at the end as the fluid being forced into the pipe comes to a stop.
Had a CPVC joint blower out on me. Thought to myself, must have been a poor glue joint. Turns out, it was never glued to begin with. Just shoved together and somehow lasted 20 years before it popped out. Looks like the moral of the story is as long as you cement it, it should stay. That being said, I'll still clean it, prime it, spill a little primer, and then cement.
You beveled the ends. Does that help something? Should they always be beveled?
You always want to clear away the burrs from the end of the pipe which can interfere with the pipe sliding into the fitting. Placing a bevel not only lets the pipe slide into the fitting easier, but it also helps to distribute the cement
Why did you use such long pieces of pipe? Wouldn't it be easier to use pieces around 6inches long?
Any thoughts as to why they all broke at that end?
Makes sense to me that all the pressure is being pushed toward the end of the pipe.
Every week i wonder what r u up to when you dont have another video up yet parject farm does which I assume he will post to show verbal support.
true they are all equal as good as it seems. But I would have not made a big pipe and but have enough pipe to cover both caps to each other.
Wonder if you tested without chamfering as most guys dont do that and I think it scraps off lots of the glue and inconsistent.
This is like that old generic brand trash bag commercial. They shot Hefty and theirs with shotguns and each shredded to pieces. The punchline was "Oh well, tough enough". I laughed for 10 minutes.
I find it interesting how all pipe failures were at the capped end versus the inlet side.
I'd be curious to see this done with stronger pipe since it doesn't seem to break the fittings off
I think it would still fail on the walls of the pipe in the areas away from or next to the fittings. The reason why, is because the wall is reinforced and much thicker where the fittings are glued or cemented to the pipe
What happens is we get a professional testing video such as this one to explain it
What happens if you only use purple primer? (wet weld both surfaces, when wet, of course, as you know)
No bond
Have you tried it? I've tried it. There's abundant bond on my test pipe and fitting, it's as strong as any. It's a very thorough looking strong weld-fusion. It wouldn't come apart with wrenches/channellocks@@electronicsNmore
The older the pipe is the more it needs primer to soften it before the glue
I agree with that
Who really controls the pressure psi from the source to home if we dont have any control at home
... our pipe fittings blowing from time to time suddenly..pls annswer who really controls?
Im curious as to why you used PVC sch40, vs CPVC. No one uses this PVC for municipal drinking water supply. Id be interested in seeing another test using other materials designed for drinking water.
It's very common to see SCH40 PVC in homes around here for the cold water supply and CPVC just for the hot side. Most new construction has shifted away from PVCs for most supply considerations.
We have copper for the supply lines and all the other PVC is SCH 40.
He mostly deals with sprinkler systems, which use PVC pretty much exclusively. CPVC is f'ing awful and I wouldn't have that stuff anywhere near my house. It gets brittle with time, and will split open if you look at it wrong after a few years. I wouldn't recommend using CPVC under any circumstances. Anywhere where you'd use CPVC, you should be using copper or pex instead. I guarantee you the only reason CPVC allowed by code is the industry is paying off the politicians to keep it there - you know, legal corruption known as "lobbying"
In Florida and many other places PVC is used for City water as well as well water
What it does in a day while being way above the pressure rating of the pipe is not really indicative of what it will do after 5 years. I would be very uncomfortable smearing acetone all over a polyvinyl-chloride pipe. Acetone eats right through it.
As much as I like to save a buck, the PVC makers aren't the ones selling the 2 part system and they recommend it be done the right way. This is especially true for pipes where access is not easy.
Keep your house pressude under 1300 psi. Lol
And, primer alone welds PVC pipes fully functionally strong? Yes?
Running this test is a great idea, but these aren't real world conditions. Pipe can go through temperature extremes over the years. Will that affect the bond? What about continuous lower pressures applied over longer periods of time and repeated pressurizing up and depressurizing down over years? What about the joints' exposure to water and other things in water that could weaken the bond? I'm really not convinced that without the primer the bonds would hold in these real world conditions. 🤔 Another consideration is that not using primer may put you out of compliance with the plumbing code in your area.
I've done jobs 30+ years ago using cement only, and to this day those connections are still not leaking
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Faulty information in this video. Cleaner and primer are different solvents with different actions. You must apply all three (cleaner, primer, and cement) to get a proper joint that is leak-free, mechanically strong, and most resistant to abuse. The cleaner gets rid of surface grime and glaze that will interfere with the bond. The primer penetrates and activates the surface so that it will accept a solvent weld at full strength and depth everywhere. The cement welds the mating surfaces together. Proper application also produces a cement fillet around the socket collar, so that the weld does not peel apart at the weakest-point edge when flexed, and stress does not concentrate there. An intelligent user would want all of this working in his favor. Skip the cleaner and you risk a leakage path through the joint. Skip the primer and you risk a weakly bonded joint.
The fact that your substandard shortcut methods (no cleaning and/or no primer) have stood up in your applications does not prove that your practice is sound, or as good as standard, or good enough, or productive of redundant join strength, or availing of worst-case safety margins, in general.
The hydraulic pressure testing is interesting but not probative. The "distal" end of the pipe is the weakest point, ballooning and failing first, because it has been more softened by the solvent vapor trapped and soaking into the walls of the dead end in the 24 hours of curing. The open end joint vapor was not as concentrated. A fair test would have to cure for a long time to eliminate the solvent softening effect that is distorting the test results. PVC fails in brittle rupture without stretching first, but only after the solvent has migrated out over a long time, and the temporary solvent plasticizing of the polymerization has fully reconditioned into its normal long-term brittleness.
Nothing faulty. All info is accurate. Where did you ever hear of applying 3? LOL. Supply the link. I have jobs for 30+ years ago that are still perfect to this day.
For your education:
www.oatey.com/faqs-blog-videos-case-studies/blog/how-complete-perfect-solvent-cement-joint-every-time
Don't use the pipe for airlines. Unless you like blowout explosions.
I did plumbing at my uncles house and he didn’t use primer and 10 years later I was pulling apart some of the joints, but some did hold, another time doing large diameter, PVC pipe for roof drains, and the guy I was working with refused to use primer and it was in the winter timeand they all leaked like a sieve, so if you want to use primer or you don’t wanna use primer, just do it on your own house and nobody’s gonna care
I have a suspicion he just did a lousy job and didn't apply enough PVC cement
@@electronicsNmore nope, when you use the primer, it forms a chemical bond, and when you don’t the glue dries out and gets crusty, plastic itself gets weak and brittle as it ages so you can imagine what happens to that glue joint
@@bjkjoseph I've seen many people over the years not use the primer and have no issues. Many of the same chemicals in the cement are also in the primer. If you apply enough of the cement and work it into the pipe the PVC will soften before you connect the fitting
@@electronicsNmore Not when someone’s paying you to do the right job, manufacture states to use the primer so I use the primer
@@bjkjoseph The purpose of the video was to test strength using various methods. If the pipe was able to handle 10-14x city water pressure, it will never fail using 80 psi. Use the method you like.
I would never use PVC pipe for drinking water from a well. It's best for waste water.
If you don't use the cleaner, you're not gonna get a good bond. You will get wet, guaranteed.
Disagree 100%. I've been working with PVC for 32 years, and friends of mine live in my old house from 30 years ago that I worked on
Video too long. Can you make a short?
Primer is a money scam!!