Nearly 30K views that’s nice. Love how half the comment section is debating the Morbius Doctors and the other half is memes for the movie Morbius! Thanks to all that Morbed!
The intent of the production team at the time was to imply Hartnell wasn't the Doctor's first body, as Phillip Hinchcliffe has stated in interviews. Morbius loses because static energy builds in his brain case and earths through his brain, as Solon warned him. The Doctor is nearly killed and needs saving via the Sisterhood's Elixir. So, the intent was that the faces are the Doctor's. But them being Morbius' also works. There's a cutaway between Hartnell and all the new faces. So the screen could've jumped back to Morbius' face in that time, and the new faces are also Morbius'. And Morbius is so mad he still thinks he's winning, so keeps ranting that he is. The Doctor's collapse could be from the effects of fighting such a strong mind.
Also the people you see there are from the production staff. At the time it wasn’t given much thought about all this. Now though I still say the Doctor is not the first disguise he’s used. If you know anything about how the Time Lords came to be. Then you know that it was Rassillon, Omega and the Other that created time travel. Just WHO was the Other?
@@buhe1 Hinchcliffe's idea was that the Fifth Doctor was the Doctor's final life. When Five dies, he's worried that he might not regenerate, remember? But his memories of all his companions help him push through and beat the limit at the last second. Of course, he didn't put any of this into dialogue, so it doesn't really 'count', but that regeneration scene is the resolution to this little mystery.
Such courage the Doctor had shown fighting the Morbius monster in a mental duel to stop him from threatening anyone again, though he got hurt from that duel bad. Good thing that he was given an elixir later on to save his life.
Interestingly In the Cold Fusion Novel. It’s revealed that during the mindbending battle, after Morbius said, "Back! Back to Your Beginning!" and the eight faces began to flash on the screen, the Fourth Doctor shout to Morbius via Thoughts: *"You Can't! …Not that Far...I Won't Let You! …Not Even I!!"*
Said all along Morbius WON that mind duel. But at a cost and that's why the doctor needed the Elixir. The doctors faces of 3 2 1 were on the screen. The others were of Morbius. Because he had lived longer than the doctor.
the words of producer Philip Hinchcliffe: "We tried to get famous actors for the faces of the Doctor. But because no one would volunteer, we had to use backroom boys. And it is true to say that I attempted to imply that William Hartnell was not the first Doctor."
The idea of there being Doctors before Hartnell was just a little idea for this scene that didn't take with the fandom back then, it was easy enough to ignore. I definitely never met a single fan who was seriously wanting answers on the matter, despite what Chibnall seemed to think. At least the 'Robert Holmes in a funny wig' incarnation is canon now, I was personally just dying for that.
I don't know, I kinda like that this plot hole was finally addressed after 44 years. And it's not like it cheapens Hartnell's role as the first Doctor. Delgado wasn't the first incarnation of the Master, but we still recognize him as the original. I just hope that the Timeless Child is treated similarly to the Time War, something that gets mentioned every now and then but is never shown in its entirety.
@@Silverwind87 The Timeless Child deserves to be considered as non canon. It completely ruined the mystery of the Time Lords origins and the Doctor’s origins.
@@z-rex6068 I think we have to consider it canon, yes it completely turns what we consider the timelords to be on its head, but remember the time lords have always come across as overbearing and pompous, it was the rebel time lords like the Dr, the Rani, the master, who chose a deliberate path of good/evil.
@@mikerainham I don’t see what the time lords being pompous and the path of good/evil has to do with the mystery of the time lords being ruined.. If we found out tomorrow that god factually created us all it’d be a disappointing outcome. Some things are best left to imagination. We certainly don’t have to consider it canon, the origins of the time lords is best left to be speculated about, never to have a true definitive answer given.
@@z-rex6068 Having never seen the old series but watched everything since Christopher Eccleston, I have already made my mind to just forget about all of Jodie's take of the Doctor (hating on Chibnall not her) and make a fresh start with Russell T Davis coming back. The Doctor is still just like any other time lord for me, not some mysterious God specimen.
Well there's been so many Doctor Who's since the first Doctor Who in 1963 which I was watching only an hour ago and there is only a year between his passing away in 1975 to Doctor Who: The Brain of Morbius in 1976, The Brain of Morbius is my favourite episode depicting the matriarchal sisters of the old world beliefs, loving the fictionalisation of it, check out the tremor of hands scene just like the old world Navajo Medicine Men and Medicine Women who use the tremor of hands to find and heal. I tell you what I do not get, why Star Trek instead of Doctor Who on the horror channel. when are we going to see Roger Delgado.
I thought that at least one of them was Morbius as he looked in his past before being executed,messed up,etc. This was so long ago that I can't remember how set in stone I was with the assumption that Hartnell's was definitely the first incarnation of the Doctor or just the point where we earthling viewers joined the series.
@@WELSHGAMER99 I don't get why people can't understand this. If it wasn't stated in the show it didnt happen. It's like the people who get upset that concept art didnt appear in a movie or video game. And if it the show did say these were more faces the later introduction of regeneration cycles, and its importance over the decades, completely contradicts it If it wasn't for Chibnalls inability to let this go we wouldn't even have this conversation I am literally hoping chibs goes back on this for 13s regeneration or RTD
@@mayotango1317 You don't understand the concept of "headcanon", do you? Regardless, the "canon" versions of Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Star Trek have become so polluted that the only way to remain a fan is to ignore certain elements of "canon". "Anything made after 1990" is a good starting point for what to cut in all 3 cases.
@@rjjcms1 Ever seen the Bottom stage show where the diary they need to move the plot forward just happens to be *right there* on the organ? Eddie can’t help but exclaim: “That’s a bit fuckin’ convenient in’t it?”
If Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart had gotten to see the Doctor fight Morbius in mind bending, he would be so surprised of the Doctor's Time Lord powers more than ever.
Well, folks. This is an amazing story no doubt about it. A true classic. I especially love Philip Madoc as Solon, the Sisterhood of Karn, the graveyard of spaceship wreckage, the lightning, the atmosphere, so many things. Classic Frankenstein Hammer Horror homage. However, this is the scene that gave Chibnall the idea of the Timeless Child. Oh dear.
@@wheatley9601 I did too. It made more sense! I'd personally retcon it back to being that and make the Timeless Child a lie of the Matrix and Tecteun not a real person, but an incarnation of the Rani in league with the Master.
Whilst the crew did intend for the faces in this scene to be previous incarnations of the Doctor, it’s important to note two things. 1. This contradicts “The Three Doctors” in which the Time Lords send for all the Doctor’s previous incarnations, which consists only of Hartnell and Troughton. And 2. The choice for the Doctor to have had pre-Hartnell incarnations was contradicted the following year in “The Deadly Assassin” which established the regeneration limit. Based on how the show ran afterwards and ignored the Morbius Doctors, it’s fair to assume that the faces were silently retconned to be Morbius, at least until the Timeless Child BS.
Actually, "The Deadly Assassin" does not contradict the idea yet. There is nothing in "The Deadly Assassin" to contradict the idea that the Tom Baker Doctor is in fact in his twelfth incarnation, just like what "Brain of Morbius" suggests; after all, the Master, who is the same age as the Doctor, is on his last regeneration in "Deadly Assassin"! It's only when Davison (the "thirteenth Doctor" if you count the Morbius faces) regenerated into Colin Baker that the regeneration limit began to conflict with the Morbius Doctors' existence.
@@aristidetwain9117 Good point. Since Holmes and Hinchcliffe both left the show after Talons, it's unclear whether or not the Morbius Doctors would have factored into the future of their run. Overall though, the point still stands that the faces being the pre-Hartnell Doctors was silently retconned over the course of Classic Who.
The thing about the timeless child BS is that if these eight faces are meant to be before Hartnell’s Doctor, then why would the machine bring up these memories and afterwards re-repress them. As far as I’m aware I started with New Who but gradually got into watching the Classic stories, those eight faces are Morbius and Hartnell will always be the First Doctor.
@@smithyblue This was retconned by Chibnall now and it's never explained how the machine managed to get the information and the doctor forgot it did by the time 13 rolls around
It totally makes sense that those faces belonged to Morbius... If "pushing" in this wrestiling meant showing previous faces, why would Morbius lose if those were the Doctor's faces?
I would agree... if Morbius lost. After the faces are shown, both Time Lords take "psychic damage", as it were. But Morbius merely reels in pain and walks away. He is fine. The Doctor dies- not collapses, not regenerates- dies. The Sisterhood have to use the Elixir of Life to bring him back, and they have to drive Morbius off of a cliff to kill him. By your own logic that those are the loser's faces, they must be the Doctor's own.
Morbius straight up says "Back. To. Your. Beginning." over the top of those faces. After having previously said "How far? How long have you lived, Doctor?" The clear intention over those faces is that Morbius is winning. And Morbius is indeed winning. So those are the Doctor's faces, as they're pushed back further and further.
It wouldn't make sense for those to be Morbius' faces at all (not least because the crew confirmed they were told they were playing earlier incarnations of the Doctor), since Morbius' running monologue clearly describes it as being the Doctor who is pushed back until he loses and we already know that Morbius is basically guaranteed to win.
One of my favourite Doctor Who stories, even though it's a total nick from Frankenstein. Loved how the Doctor killed Solon with cyanide whilst resuscitating Morbius.
If I ever meet Tom Baker, I'm going to ask if he can sign my VHS copy of this, then I can store my copy of the "Brain of Chop Suey the Galactic Emperor" on my ornament shelf.
If you want my evidence as to why I thought it was Morbius’ face. The only definite episodic proof I have is in the music. At 0:58. Listen to the music that plays when who we definitely know as Morbius’ faces At 1:06. A new instrument is added to the score when (who we definitely know). Are the Doctors faces appear Then at 1:38 the music changes back to music similar at 0:58 which represents morbius. The intrustment representing the Doctor vanishes until 1:48 when the intrustment representing the Doctor from 1:06 returns as Morbius begins to screech in pain and The Doctor begins to win. That is the only evidence I have to support my belief that was intended to be Morbius’ Face.
I always assumed them to be Morbius' faces. I mean, there's a cut after Hartnell, then, as we see these unknown faces, he says "your puny mind is powerless against the strength of MORBIUS". And, the explosion or whatever in Morbius' goldfish bowl or whatever happens as we see these faces. So, idk... seemed obvious to me.
Definitely the Doctor’s faces. “ Back, Doctor, back. How long have you lived?” Then Morbius explodes as he pushes the Doctor backwards through his past, a past we now know involves hundreds if not thousands of regenerations.
@Meat wad Your problem seems to be with CC. The production crew who made The Brain of Morbius confirmed that the images were of the Doctor. Your hatred blinds you and is rather silly. Good luck in everything you do.
@Meat wad “you lot”. Just because you can’t have everything your way you feel the need to rant and rave like a two year old denied a sweet. I grew up with classic Who from Troughton’s era. I have no problem with any era of the show, I enjoy it all. The classic production crew stated that the faces were the Doctor before Hartnell. Get over yourself, you’ll get a stomach ulcer with all that anger you have, lol.
The "Back... Back to your beginning!" from Morbius during the other 8 faces does make it pretty hard to believe that those are Morbius' past incarnations. I'm alright with the idea of pre-Hartnell doctors, but I'd prefer it to be more ambiguous, and the Timeless Child is definitely a bad way to confirm it.
@@SchultzDorinda I'm still mad we got the Timeless Child over The Other, the latter is just so much more interesting, while keeping the Doctor actually gallifreyan.
@@finnstewart4747 Exactly, that's why I totally choose to ignore the Chibnall Era. And now I'm totally ignoring RTD's Disney Who as well. To me Capaldi truly is the Last Doctor. "Doctor I let you go", and gone he is.
If I have counted correctly, Morpheus has regenerated at least eight times. Despite what Cribnell is trying to do by retconning the whole regeneration cycle by saying The Doctor is the source of Time Lords generation, as well as trying to replace William Hartnell has the first Doctor, it is always been very clear that all of the images during the mind-bending contest belong to Morbius. Those are his past incarnations and not The Doctor's.
@Hi I can and I will. Was that statement by the original producers made following Cribnell's poorly attempted retcon of the regeneration cycle or was it made back in the seventies when the episode first aired? Which I'll have you know was when I first saw the episode here in The States. Knowing the wussiness of today's politics in the media, and using a similar issue that occurred in Lucasfilms regarding George Lucas first praising The Expanded Universe novels as Canon and then backpedaling following the sale of the franchise to Disney. It is very possible that the original producers are doing the same thing in regards to the mind-bending contest and claiming those images were not Morbius's but The Doctor's, which is illogical in the full context of that scene. But of course, money talks. So post up the link to that complete statement for analysis as any adult would do. That is far better than the weak insults and emojis you have resorted to with your cut and pasted comment.
@@ldarksong "Was that statement by the original producers made following Cribnell's poorly attempted retcon of the regeneration cycle or was it made back in the seventies when the episode first aired?" - Hinchcliffe stated as such in his interview in 1981 with Ian MacLachlan for Matrix issue 8. This was then later cite-quoted in the In-Vision fanzine publication for Morbius. You can find yourself a copy on Internet Archive. (Alongside a quotation from Robert Holmes before his death in the later part of 1986 that also says the same.) "claiming those images were not Morbius's but The Doctor's, which is illogical in the full context of that scene." - Morbius straight-up says "How far? How long have you lived, Doctor?" and "Back. To. Your. Beginning." (Terrance Dicks even goes one further in the novelisation and goes with "Back, Doctor, back to your beginnings. To your birth - and to your death!")
@@lethehead "To paraphrase from another comment: The showrunner at the time was essentially trying, purposefully, to break continuity as he hated being constrained by so much established canon." That's not at all the case. (Infact, with respect, sounds like someone's been reading JVR's review of Deadly Assassin...) And producer - not showrunner. Important distinction to have between Classic and modern Who. "He intended it to be the Doctor's previous faces." Hinchcliffe and Holmes both did. "However, the editors knew this was a stupid idea so they included the cut to Sarah Jane as a way to keep continuity, " There is absolutely no evidence for that claim whatsoever. Nothing in In-Vision. Or the DVD info-text. Or the DVD commentary. Or the Fourth Doctor Handbook. Or any other notable source of production information for the story. With respect, I'd actively challenge you to find me evidence of that. "and the showrunner was replaced soon after." Hinchcliffe had a now-much-revered four-year run. The reason for him moving onto a different BBC show was Mary Whitehouse. Her insistent complaints and moral panic about the gothic horror nature of some of his era & the perception of the show being more violent was enough to force that. (Whitehouse was a crazy woman in how much she could do. She even became chummy with Margaret Thatcher in years thereafter.) "It may have also been the same showrunner that attempted the idea of "The Other", which was another silly all-powerful Doctor backstory that was scrapped because, again, everyone else there knew it was an awful idea." No, Hinchcliffe is NOT Andrew Cartmel (Or Aaronovitch, or Platt - both of whom also deserve their credit). And 'The Other' wasn't then scrapped. The novels actively continued this on, most notably leading to a conclusion with Lungbarrow in 1997. "It seems Chibnall was a fan of this writer" The Mindbend Doctors being preHartnells is hardly anything new. From 1976 to 2008, there was a unified intention in stories that these faces were the Doctor. Heck, one of these Doctors even shows up in the novels! "due to how unfleshed out it seems and how many plotholes it creates rather than solving them." I'd argue it's solved a lot more issues than people think. "The rest of BBC and the production team would like likely stopped Chibnall." If a showrunner nowadays was doing something the BBC didn't like, they'd stop it. And the prod. team have spoken positively of the approach. "However, Chibnall unfortunately had the shield of "wokeness" so he likely would have claimed they fired him out of mysogyny towards Jodie Whittaker." So aside from making this - a 30 year consistently established point - about 'wokeness'... where the heck are you coming up with that bizarre hypothetical from? "Which is unfortunately, why this awful idea is now canon - or at least until RTD hopefully can retcon it." Russell praised it in his preface for 'And The Time War'. Which makes sense, because Russell's first Doctor Who story was for one of the novel ranges that literally further supported these faces being the Doctor.
A high quality upload of the scene! But it was not “99.9% meant to be Morbius faces”. Philip Hinchliffe, Doctor Who showrunner at the time, said in In-Vision Issue 12 that they were meant to be The Doctors before Hartnell.
Why thank you. I should have put 50% because from how I've read it for years as Morbius' faces. I always thought those were Morbius' as from how I hear him saying, he's winning the mind battle and I thought he just died by the build up of electricity that made Morbius' then feeble mind go. Both ideas were equally valid.
@@TheWeepingDalek to clarify. We never actually see the transition from William Hartnell to that face. It just cuts to Sarah Jane. In that time. The faces could have went from William Hartnell to back to Morbius’ First Few Faces and then cut back here. I have a Mandela effect vision of Morbius switching back to Hartnell aswell
@@TheWeepingDalek granted you’ve given a good point but that cut to Sarah Jane could have given all the vital information we needed for this scene. Hartnell transitions to the next face could have told us immediately it was the Doctor.
Whether that was the intent or not, it is not what is onscreen. It had been stated outright onscreen before this (The Three Doctors, ca Christmas 1972) that the 1st Doctor was the First Doctor. It has been confirmed constantly, right up to the last Capaldi episode. So, from Christmas 1972 to Christmas 2017 (45 years) it had been constantly reaffirmed onscreen that the 1st Doctor was the first. Hinchcliffe, who was the seventh producer for the series (1975-7) , hated being constrained by 12 years of established canon, and tried to sabotage it. The editors redacted his sabotage. He had effectively destroyed the series in a few years, and was fired. That Hinchcliffe intended to unmake the existing canon is understood. That the editors stopped him and edited it so as to have the new faces be Morbius's is also understood. Onscreen, they are Morbius's faces, and were only ever the Doctor's in Hinchcliffe's and a few co-conspirators minds.
The one big question that always pops up in this is why Solon is just after the Doctors head,why not use the Fourth Doctors whole body rather than the allsorts put together body? 😁.Seriously though it's one of my alltime favourites.
If it's not on the page, it's not on the stage, and nowhere in this scene does it state these are only the doctors previous regens..........so apart from the pics of the 3 previous actors in the roll, these is nothing to indicate these are either the doctors or Morbius regens, and that is how it had stayed happily for 43 years, until Chibnall decided he would take it upon himself to mess with it for no other reason that to make his mark on the show, something it seems he could not do on his own with his writting.
so, the moment it got to Christopher Barry's incarnation, Morbius' brain overloads before he could get to the Timeless Children. This pretty much shows that, as the 7th Doctor once said: "I am far more than just another Time Lord."
@@blueshark7385 No The Timeless Children confirmed in the one montage that the Morbius faces are in fact incarnations of the Doctor, just from forgotten pre-Hartnell times
@@WiloPolis03 Then why do they show up there and not in any other point in the entire show? You'd think that if they were at all important they'd be mentioned at least once since they first appeared. In 'The Three Doctors it is literally confirmed that William Hartnell is the Doctor's earliest incarnation, his first one, and that was years before The Brain of Morbius. And then after the Brain of Morbius the Fifth Doctor mentions regenerating four times, meaning five incarnations. Yes they where originally intended to be the Doctor's incarnations, but that concept was quickly scrapped, ignored, and forgotten, and those faces were forever accepted by everyone as Morbius' past incarnations as he too is a Time Lord. We also never see William Hartnell's face fade into one of Morbius' faces. They aren't connected. Chibnall wanted to "fix" a plothole that never existed, and by doing so has completely wrecked the show and introduced the largest plothole ever. The rule of Time Lords having only 12 regenerations and 13 incarnations no longer work because of him. Also, one of the most important rules of writing Doctor Who: William Hartnell is and will always be the first Doctor. Don't interfere with his era and legacy.
@@blueshark7385I mean, it could just be that these 8 were before the Doctor took up the title of "the Doctor," and Hartnell's incarnation was the first to do so. That way, it doesn't contradict The Three Doctors, where the line was "show me the earliest Doctor."
😅 ngl my friend is watching this season and I saw this episode. I thought it was so interesting they can compound their past lifes against each other in a mental battle. Morbius was on his 9th reincarnation at least by that machine. That's insane. The whole episode centered around immortality and the issues regarding being stagnant in life. "Maybe the doctor's right; maybe there should be an end." Great episode, great storyline, great writing imo. Hilarious comments but anyone who sees this, I highly recommend watching this story arch.
irritated at all the people talking about The Timeless Child saying, “should we consider it canon”, um sorry, it’s not your choice ? it’s literally cemented in the Doctor Who series forever no matter how much you complain about it. it will be brought up in future episodes whether you like it or not so unless you’re gonna go pay for an education to become a screenwriter and climb the ranks for years until you get a shot at writing a DW episode that retcons everything maybe just get over it 🤷♀️
@@neighborhoodthreattv if Doctor Who has a 'canon', it's wildly inconsistent and contradictory. But this makes perfect sense, as by its very nature the show deals with altered histories, parallel timelines and contradictory paradoxes. The in-universe history of the universe, the Time Lords and the Doctor must be continuously shifting and changing, and the Time War, Flux and Big Bang II only make it more chaotic
@@darlig.ulv.bakhjerne Not sure why this is directed at me, the person pointing out these kinds of fundamental and contradictory retcons happen all the time in the franchise, and not the OP, the person claiming what has been shown in new who is set in stone forever.
@@Robert-tl2vg Actually continuity was ruined when they thought up regeneration and the time lord gimmick. Before that the Doctor was human. They let go of continuity to save the show.
@@Discrimination_is_not_a_right At least with the Doctor being a Time Lord, they didn't outright say that he is a human in the show. It's the intent during the pilot, but they abandoned that in the broadcast version of An Unearthly Child. Regeneration is an asspull, I'll give you that.
When I watched this on its original airing (I was 8) I naturally assumed this meant the Doctor had previous lives prior to the Hartnell era. However, continuity established later, and set in stone, meant that sequence became a tricky one to explain. So, this is how I explain it: There's an opinion that the Doctor was clearly defeated in the battle, being forced back along his timeline up until the end, and only survived because Morbius' current body couldn't withstand the power generated. I suggest that the Doctor guessed he could cause exactly such an effect, and allowed Morbius to believe he was winning, thus ensuring he'd keep pushing, his own mind cleverly inventing fake incarnations to throw as carrots on the end of the stick to keep Morbius interested. The end result obviously took it out of both of them, but Morbius was clearly damaged, while the Doctor merely fainted from the effort. My conclusion: those faces, despite the off-camera assertion of being the Doctor, were constructs of the Doctor's mind used to fight Morbius and win. If RTD is clever enough, he'll use them to tip the Doctor to the Timeless Child being the Master's most elaborate and long-term plot, in the same way as ST:TNG's Commander Riker realised the "future" he awoke in was a fake due to his "wife" being called Minuet. Just my thoughts, but if you're reading this, Russell, my rates are reasonable.
@@mayotango1317 Missy lied about the coordinates to Gallifrey in the series 8 finale, also (supposedly) about the Doctor's name being Doctor Who, and plus the whole "one of those was a lie, can you guess which one" thing
@@mayotango1317 The Master never lies? In the film, he made up a whole story to Chang Lee about who he and the Doctor really were. This is the guy who held the universe to ransom and drowned a kitten because he could - I don't think he's above lying.
Watching it doesn’t establish anything more than those are likely Morbius’ faces. If writers and producers felt differently, they were welcome to write dialogue and stories indicating that. They didn’t. Nothing is on screen saying this. (Tie in media is just that.)
I mean sure, but aren't you forgetting about the part where he yelled out "it's morbin time!" Which I would so really completely counters your argument.
@@kennethos8089 "HOW LONG, DOCTOR, HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED?!" *Pre-Hartnell faces start appearing* "YOUR PUNY MIND IS POWERLESS AGAINST THE STRENGTH OF MORBIUS!! BACK!! BACK TO YOUR BEGINNING!!!!"
@@thegeekyskunkgamer Just ONE explicit line of dialogue that says there were Doctors before Hartnell? But no, there’s not even ONE line of dialogue. That’s your issue. Doesn’t matter what people meant, if it’s not SAID.
*Broke:* The Timeless Child retcons Doctor Who canon *Woke:* The Timeless Child is not a retcon because of the Morbius Doctors *Bespoke:* The Timeless Child is the newest in a long line of retcons in Doctor Who's inconsistent history
@@dylanhope9841 That is true, but it only mattered to the Brain of Morbius episode. Even then, JNT promptly discarded them when he casted Davison as the Fifth Doctor. (He would have been the Thirteenth Doctor if the writers took the Brain of Morbius faces as the Doctor's. Guess which route they took.)
This makes more sense! Now I'm starting to understand The Timeless Children! If those people are the Doctor from the past!?🤔 Then I see... But this is strange! Some of them are new! We have never seen them before! ( Except The 1st Doctor, 2nd and 3rd Doctor! )( And no Ruth Doctor😂 ) I hate to admit it! But Chris Chibnall did a good job!🤧 It was bad executed but it kinda work! Somehow!🤷♀️🤦♀️
I don't like the way in which Chibnall's Timeless Child lore tried to expand upon it, but I still prefer the originally intended interpretation that these are the Doctor's faces to the alternative in which they're Morbius's. The scene makes no sense otherwise. Morbius is taunting the Doctor about pushing him "back to your beginning," which would make no sense for him to say while his own faces are flashing on the screen. While Morbius clearly uses a great deal of mental energy in the duel, he's the clear winner as he's able to stagger away at the end while the Doctor can only collapse into a heap on the floor.
Oh yes, people saying that those were Morbius faces even though he clearly says: "back, back to *YOUR* beginning!" People do need to study some grammar, and this is by someone who's still learning english. But even lovin' this concept, yeah, I understand the backlash.
@@p.p3152 because he's going through each incarnation in reverse-order. The viewscreen shows the Fourth, Third, Second and First Doctors, then the pre-Hartnell Doctors. With every face displayed on the screen, Morbius is going further and further back along the Doctor's timeline, but he is stopped before he can reach the Doctor's beginning (which has now been established as the 'Timeless Child' incarnations)
No they are not.. They are the faces of previous Doctors, As mentioned by the series producer at the time Philip Hinchcliffe in the reference book "Doctor Who: A history of the universe. The faces are of various members of production staff, the original plan being to use well known actors, however Dr Who with it's obvious budget constraints couldn't afford it.
I firmly bracket the timeless child with the "Doctor was half-human " from the tv movie...never heard that mentioned since - and I doubt we'll ever hear of the tc nonsense again....🤔
I can't believe Morbius fought doctor who in the Movie Morbius and in the Docotor who show! Morbius is truly a master peice!!
The 11th Doctor has sex with Doctor Michael Morbius
Morbius is truly a movie. Ever.
Not a match although Morbius had a mean left hook.😀
make that a Right Hook.
"Be very careful, Doctor. Because I am gonna MORB"
One of the most Doctor Who episodes ever.
I love how half the comment section is getting angry about the timeless child and the other half is making morbius jokes
It's like it's all a Morbius strip, or something...
😅
I remember during the episode when Morbius told the Doctor ‘It’s Morbin Time!’
It’s Morbin’ time!
Found it.
0:07 love the way he points at his head to indicate where his brain is
STAND BACK DOCTOR! I AM BEGINNING TO MORB!
"This is so embarrassing... I know they say this happens to one in five Time Lords... I never morb this quickly... I'm so sorry."
Matt Smith enjoyed Morbius so much he used a time machine to go back to the seventies and have them name the villain after the movie
*"Your puny mind is powerless against the strength of Morbius!"* - Morbius
ITS MORBIN TIME
This is one of the scenes ever.
Years Later, The Doctor Fought Morbius as a Villian.
Thus concludes that Morbius (2022) is a sequel
Its always morbin time
Still the most terrifying pair of air-horns in all of science-fiction! 🏆🇬🇧
So Morbius fought Dr Who here and in the Morbius movie
It's Morbin time !!!
Damn, looks like I've arrived late to the Morbius jokes.
Nearly 30K views that’s nice.
Love how half the comment section is debating the Morbius Doctors and the other half is memes for the movie Morbius!
Thanks to all that Morbed!
The ultimate rivalry throughout generations
OK, do believe this was an attempt to say the doctor was much older than thought. But as pointed out, this idea wasn't fleshed out in future episodes.
Until recently.
What are you talking about? The series went on hiatus when season 10 ended
they fleshed it out in series 12 and 13, but in such a boring way
@@ozy6252it’s quite interesting when people wanted a show that millions love to cease to exist just because they didn’t like a certain plot point
The intent of the production team at the time was to imply Hartnell wasn't the Doctor's first body, as Phillip Hinchcliffe has stated in interviews. Morbius loses because static energy builds in his brain case and earths through his brain, as Solon warned him. The Doctor is nearly killed and needs saving via the Sisterhood's Elixir. So, the intent was that the faces are the Doctor's. But them being Morbius' also works.
There's a cutaway between Hartnell and all the new faces. So the screen could've jumped back to Morbius' face in that time, and the new faces are also Morbius'. And Morbius is so mad he still thinks he's winning, so keeps ranting that he is. The Doctor's collapse could be from the effects of fighting such a strong mind.
Also the people you see there are from the production staff. At the time it wasn’t given much thought about all this. Now though I still say the Doctor is not the first disguise he’s used. If you know anything about how the Time Lords came to be. Then you know that it was Rassillon, Omega and the Other that created time travel. Just WHO was the Other?
That actually worked better when it was revealed that a Timelord has 12 regenerations.
Oh cool
@@buhe1 Hinchcliffe's idea was that the Fifth Doctor was the Doctor's final life. When Five dies, he's worried that he might not regenerate, remember? But his memories of all his companions help him push through and beat the limit at the last second. Of course, he didn't put any of this into dialogue, so it doesn't really 'count', but that regeneration scene is the resolution to this little mystery.
All of this is implying that the doctor might be god in the future 😊
Such courage the Doctor had shown fighting the Morbius monster in a mental duel to stop him from threatening anyone again, though he got hurt from that duel bad. Good thing that he was given an elixir later on to save his life.
And the Doctor morbed all across the room against Morbius
this is definitely of the episodes of doctor who.
This one is good
MORB😍😈
I hate myself for coming here.
Just to say "IT'S MORBIN' TIME!"
Interestingly In the Cold Fusion Novel. It’s revealed that during the mindbending battle, after Morbius said, "Back! Back to Your Beginning!" and the eight faces began to flash on the screen, the Fourth Doctor shout to Morbius via Thoughts: *"You Can't! …Not that Far...I Won't Let You! …Not Even I!!"*
It's the Fifth in that novel surely?
@@mdatkinson92 i know there are fan bits in there from all Doctors
Those faces were morbius....not the doctor
@@stevebishop9468 yes considering tom falls unconscious at the end
Said all along Morbius WON that mind duel. But at a cost and that's why the doctor needed the Elixir. The doctors faces of 3 2 1 were on the screen. The others were of Morbius. Because he had lived longer than the doctor.
It's morbin time.
Remember viewing this show at 80’s
*80s
I still think that the unknown faces we seen in this video is morbius’s past regenerations
The Doctor had 12 incarnations before Hartnell. He was evil during those 12, opposed by the Master who fought for good.
@@user-ei7ht7wi7n like most things in classic who it got retconned
Now it’s seen as Morbius faces to most people
They ARE Morbius's incarnations. Dont let any nonsense infect your brain my friend
the words of producer Philip Hinchcliffe:
"We tried to get famous actors for the faces of the Doctor. But because no one would volunteer, we had to use backroom boys. And it is true to say that I attempted to imply that William Hartnell was not the first Doctor."
He had no right deciding that William Hartnell was not the original.
@@stormhawk3319 why not?
@@robforasm because it’s tarnishing William Hartnell’s legacy as the original Doctor that’s why.
@@stormhawk3319 oh rubbish, not in the least. Hahaha 😂
@@robforasm small things amuse small minds I guess.
The idea of there being Doctors before Hartnell was just a little idea for this scene that didn't take with the fandom back then, it was easy enough to ignore. I definitely never met a single fan who was seriously wanting answers on the matter, despite what Chibnall seemed to think. At least the 'Robert Holmes in a funny wig' incarnation is canon now, I was personally just dying for that.
I don't know, I kinda like that this plot hole was finally addressed after 44 years. And it's not like it cheapens Hartnell's role as the first Doctor. Delgado wasn't the first incarnation of the Master, but we still recognize him as the original. I just hope that the Timeless Child is treated similarly to the Time War, something that gets mentioned every now and then but is never shown in its entirety.
@@Silverwind87 The Timeless Child deserves to be considered as non canon. It completely ruined the mystery of the Time Lords origins and the Doctor’s origins.
@@z-rex6068 I think we have to consider it canon, yes it completely turns what we consider the timelords to be on its head, but remember the time lords have always come across as overbearing and pompous, it was the rebel time lords like the Dr, the Rani, the master, who chose a deliberate path of good/evil.
@@mikerainham I don’t see what the time lords being pompous and the path of good/evil has to do with the mystery of the time lords being ruined.. If we found out tomorrow that god factually created us all it’d be a disappointing outcome. Some things are best left to imagination. We certainly don’t have to consider it canon, the origins of the time lords is best left to be speculated about, never to have a true definitive answer given.
@@z-rex6068 Having never seen the old series but watched everything since Christopher Eccleston, I have already made my mind to just forget about all of Jodie's take of the Doctor (hating on Chibnall not her) and make a fresh start with Russell T Davis coming back. The Doctor is still just like any other time lord for me, not some mysterious God specimen.
Interestingly we don’t see the screen go from hartnell to the morbius doctors
This was filmed in 1976, one year after Hartnell died. As you imagine, they didn't have the CGI back the to use his face.
@@1992jamo His face appears at 1:33 though. They can still use promotional material and archive footage for his face
Well there's been so many Doctor Who's since the first Doctor Who in 1963 which I was watching only an hour ago and there is only a year between his passing away in 1975 to Doctor Who: The Brain of Morbius in 1976, The Brain of Morbius is my favourite episode depicting the matriarchal sisters of the old world beliefs, loving the fictionalisation of it, check out the tremor of hands scene just like the old world Navajo Medicine Men and Medicine Women who use the tremor of hands to find and heal. I tell you what I do not get, why Star Trek instead of Doctor Who on the horror channel. when are we going to see Roger Delgado.
@@1992jamo CGI? It could literally be one from of tape.
@@1992jamo Actually it was filmed about six months after Hartnell's death.
Love the glare trails on the video. They're like free VFX.
I always assumed it was Morbius' faces. It will always be that in my headcanon.
No anymore.
I thought that at least one of them was Morbius as he looked in his past before being executed,messed up,etc. This was so long ago that I can't remember how set in stone I was with the assumption that Hartnell's was definitely the first incarnation of the Doctor or just the point where we earthling viewers joined the series.
@Hi yet its been contradicted ever since. Just because the producer said it from an interview doesn't mean it was explicitly shown in the episode
@@WELSHGAMER99 I don't get why people can't understand this. If it wasn't stated in the show it didnt happen. It's like the people who get upset that concept art didnt appear in a movie or video game.
And if it the show did say these were more faces the later introduction of regeneration cycles, and its importance over the decades, completely contradicts it
If it wasn't for Chibnalls inability to let this go we wouldn't even have this conversation
I am literally hoping chibs goes back on this for 13s regeneration or RTD
@@mayotango1317 You don't understand the concept of "headcanon", do you?
Regardless, the "canon" versions of Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Star Trek have become so polluted that the only way to remain a fan is to ignore certain elements of "canon". "Anything made after 1990" is a good starting point for what to cut in all 3 cases.
'Tis a bit too convenient however that the mind-bending machine just happens to be *right there*...
Yes,when he said all the equipment was there we didn't expect it was ready-assembled.
@@rjjcms1 Ever seen the Bottom stage show where the diary they need to move the plot forward just happens to be *right there* on the organ? Eddie can’t help but exclaim: “That’s a bit fuckin’ convenient in’t it?”
The Fourth Doctor is truly one of the Doctors of all time
Chibnall be like: it's morbin time
If Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart had gotten to see the Doctor fight Morbius in mind bending, he would be so surprised of the Doctor's Time Lord powers more than ever.
ah i remember this. it was definitely an episode !
Well, folks. This is an amazing story no doubt about it. A true classic. I especially love Philip Madoc as Solon, the Sisterhood of Karn, the graveyard of spaceship wreckage, the lightning, the atmosphere, so many things. Classic Frankenstein Hammer Horror homage. However, this is the scene that gave Chibnall the idea of the Timeless Child. Oh dear.
Honestly I always figured those faces were morbius'
@@wheatley9601 I did too. It made more sense! I'd personally retcon it back to being that and make the Timeless Child a lie of the Matrix and Tecteun not a real person, but an incarnation of the Rani in league with the Master.
Oh dear is right...
@@stevebishop9468 And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Have you seen what Russell T Moron has done to Davros!?
@@steveandjeanniefrith236 yes...and it makes me want to puke my guts out.
The pre “first” doctor regenerations, there could be a whole series of prequels especially Dr Novel past adventure novels. Dr -1, Dr -2, Dr -3 etc
there are 2 novels about the 8 lives before the doctor.
Whilst the crew did intend for the faces in this scene to be previous incarnations of the Doctor, it’s important to note two things. 1. This contradicts “The Three Doctors” in which the Time Lords send for all the Doctor’s previous incarnations, which consists only of Hartnell and Troughton. And 2. The choice for the Doctor to have had pre-Hartnell incarnations was contradicted the following year in “The Deadly Assassin” which established the regeneration limit. Based on how the show ran afterwards and ignored the Morbius Doctors, it’s fair to assume that the faces were silently retconned to be Morbius, at least until the Timeless Child BS.
Actually, "The Deadly Assassin" does not contradict the idea yet. There is nothing in "The Deadly Assassin" to contradict the idea that the Tom Baker Doctor is in fact in his twelfth incarnation, just like what "Brain of Morbius" suggests; after all, the Master, who is the same age as the Doctor, is on his last regeneration in "Deadly Assassin"! It's only when Davison (the "thirteenth Doctor" if you count the Morbius faces) regenerated into Colin Baker that the regeneration limit began to conflict with the Morbius Doctors' existence.
@@aristidetwain9117 Good point. Since Holmes and Hinchcliffe both left the show after Talons, it's unclear whether or not the Morbius Doctors would have factored into the future of their run. Overall though, the point still stands that the faces being the pre-Hartnell Doctors was silently retconned over the course of Classic Who.
I think those faces are the other, because after the timeless child, there's the other, then the doctor
The thing about the timeless child BS is that if these eight faces are meant to be before Hartnell’s Doctor, then why would the machine bring up these memories and afterwards re-repress them.
As far as I’m aware I started with New Who but gradually got into watching the Classic stories, those eight faces are Morbius and Hartnell will always be the First Doctor.
@@smithyblue This was retconned by Chibnall now and it's never explained how the machine managed to get the information and the doctor forgot it did by the time 13 rolls around
It totally makes sense that those faces belonged to Morbius... If "pushing" in this wrestiling meant showing previous faces, why would Morbius lose if those were the Doctor's faces?
I would agree... if Morbius lost.
After the faces are shown, both Time Lords take "psychic damage", as it were. But Morbius merely reels in pain and walks away. He is fine. The Doctor dies- not collapses, not regenerates- dies. The Sisterhood have to use the Elixir of Life to bring him back, and they have to drive Morbius off of a cliff to kill him.
By your own logic that those are the loser's faces, they must be the Doctor's own.
Because he was pushing the Doctor back regeration by regeration. Presumably when he got back to the Doctors birth he'd die. It's like a tug of rope.
Morbius straight up says "Back. To. Your. Beginning." over the top of those faces. After having previously said "How far? How long have you lived, Doctor?"
The clear intention over those faces is that Morbius is winning. And Morbius is indeed winning. So those are the Doctor's faces, as they're pushed back further and further.
It wouldn't make sense for those to be Morbius' faces at all (not least because the crew confirmed they were told they were playing earlier incarnations of the Doctor), since Morbius' running monologue clearly describes it as being the Doctor who is pushed back until he loses and we already know that Morbius is basically guaranteed to win.
It was part of Morbius' plan, at the end, he morbed everyone. One of the scenes of all time.
One of my favourite Doctor Who stories, even though it's a total nick from Frankenstein. Loved how the Doctor killed Solon with cyanide whilst resuscitating Morbius.
Handy Gallifrian mind-bending machine just randomly there.... :D
So cheesy, so good...
I knew that people were gonna make movie Morbius references!😄😆🤣😂
If I ever meet Tom Baker, I'm going to ask if he can sign my VHS copy of this, then I can store my copy of the "Brain of Chop Suey the Galactic Emperor" on my ornament shelf.
It’s sad morbious didn’t want to be dr who’s friend
1:40 Robert Homes cosplaying as Norrington from Pirates of the Caribbean is my all-time favourite Doctor lol
If you want my evidence as to why I thought it was Morbius’ face. The only definite episodic proof I have is in the music.
At 0:58. Listen to the music that plays when who we definitely know as Morbius’ faces
At 1:06. A new instrument is added to the score when (who we definitely know). Are the Doctors faces appear
Then at 1:38 the music changes back to music similar at 0:58 which represents morbius. The intrustment representing the Doctor vanishes until 1:48 when the intrustment representing the Doctor from 1:06 returns as Morbius begins to screech in pain and The Doctor begins to win.
That is the only evidence I have to support my belief that was intended to be Morbius’ Face.
I always assumed them to be Morbius' faces. I mean, there's a cut after Hartnell, then, as we see these unknown faces, he says "your puny mind is powerless against the strength of MORBIUS". And, the explosion or whatever in Morbius' goldfish bowl or whatever happens as we see these faces. So, idk... seemed obvious to me.
Definitely the Doctor’s faces. “ Back, Doctor, back. How long have you lived?” Then Morbius explodes as he pushes the Doctor backwards through his past, a past we now know involves hundreds if not thousands of regenerations.
@Meat wad no, you are incorrect. The production team has since stated that they were incarnations before Hartnell.
@Meat wad Your problem seems to be with CC. The production crew who made The Brain of Morbius confirmed that the images were of the Doctor. Your hatred blinds you and is rather silly. Good luck in everything you do.
@Meat wad “you lot”. Just because you can’t have everything your way you feel the need to rant and rave like a two year old denied a sweet. I grew up with classic Who from Troughton’s era. I have no problem with any era of the show, I enjoy it all. The classic production crew stated that the faces were the Doctor before Hartnell. Get over yourself, you’ll get a stomach ulcer with all that anger you have, lol.
"Back back to your beginning."
I’ve always heard it as “Back, Back to the beginning”.
The subtitles give me no answer.
One of the Doctor Who episodes of all time.
Chris Chibnall: Hmmm. I think I can ruin a franchise with this scene.
It literally didn't even need to be addressed Chibs just saw it and thought "Aight time to score points on my own agenda."
George Galloway was a previous incarnation....who knew?
Morbius almost revealed the Time Lord's secret, thank god the Doctor died immediately afterwards.
The "Back... Back to your beginning!" from Morbius during the other 8 faces does make it pretty hard to believe that those are Morbius' past incarnations. I'm alright with the idea of pre-Hartnell doctors, but I'd prefer it to be more ambiguous, and the Timeless Child is definitely a bad way to confirm it.
Especially since we did technically already had an answer.
That answer being the Doctor is a reincarnation of the Other.
_[Lungbarrow)_
@@SchultzDorinda I'm still mad we got the Timeless Child over The Other, the latter is just so much more interesting, while keeping the Doctor actually gallifreyan.
@@finnstewart4747 Exactly, that's why I totally choose to ignore the Chibnall Era.
And now I'm totally ignoring RTD's Disney Who as well.
To me Capaldi truly is the Last Doctor.
"Doctor I let you go", and gone he is.
1:45 looks kinda like Morbius from The Morbius Movie (Jared Leto) so these are clearly incarnations of him not the Doctor
Morbius fights Doctor Who, but also listens to Doctor Wu from “Katy Lied” as it is 1976 and that music is popular.
If the Doctor had challenged the Master to mind-bending, would the evil renegade accept the challenge and be defeated once and for all?
This scared the crap out of me when I was a kid.
It’s Morbin’ Time!!!
If I have counted correctly, Morpheus has regenerated at least eight times. Despite what Cribnell is trying to do by retconning the whole regeneration cycle by saying The Doctor is the source of Time Lords generation, as well as trying to replace William Hartnell has the first Doctor, it is always been very clear that all of the images during the mind-bending contest belong to Morbius. Those are his past incarnations and not The Doctor's.
@Hi
I can and I will.
Was that statement by the original producers made following Cribnell's poorly attempted retcon of the regeneration cycle or was it made back in the seventies when the episode first aired? Which I'll have you know was when I first saw the episode here in The States.
Knowing the wussiness of today's politics in the media, and using a similar issue that occurred in Lucasfilms regarding George Lucas first praising The Expanded Universe novels as Canon and then backpedaling following the sale of the franchise to Disney. It is very possible that the original producers are doing the same thing in regards to the mind-bending contest and claiming those images were not Morbius's but The Doctor's, which is illogical in the full context of that scene. But of course, money talks.
So post up the link to that complete statement for analysis as any adult would do. That is far better than the weak insults and emojis you have resorted to with your cut and pasted comment.
@@ldarksong "Was that statement by the original producers made following Cribnell's poorly attempted retcon of the regeneration cycle or was it made back in the seventies when the episode first aired?"
- Hinchcliffe stated as such in his interview in 1981 with Ian MacLachlan for Matrix issue 8. This was then later cite-quoted in the In-Vision fanzine publication for Morbius. You can find yourself a copy on Internet Archive. (Alongside a quotation from Robert Holmes before his death in the later part of 1986 that also says the same.)
"claiming those images were not Morbius's but The Doctor's, which is illogical in the full context of that scene."
- Morbius straight-up says "How far? How long have you lived, Doctor?" and "Back. To. Your. Beginning." (Terrance Dicks even goes one further in the novelisation and goes with "Back, Doctor, back to your beginnings. To your birth - and to your death!")
@@lethehead "To paraphrase from another comment: The showrunner at the time was essentially trying, purposefully, to break continuity as he hated being constrained by so much established canon."
That's not at all the case. (Infact, with respect, sounds like someone's been reading JVR's review of Deadly Assassin...) And producer - not showrunner. Important distinction to have between Classic and modern Who.
"He intended it to be the Doctor's previous faces."
Hinchcliffe and Holmes both did.
"However, the editors knew this was a stupid idea so they included the cut to Sarah Jane as a way to keep continuity, "
There is absolutely no evidence for that claim whatsoever. Nothing in In-Vision. Or the DVD info-text. Or the DVD commentary. Or the Fourth Doctor Handbook. Or any other notable source of production information for the story. With respect, I'd actively challenge you to find me evidence of that.
"and the showrunner was replaced soon after."
Hinchcliffe had a now-much-revered four-year run. The reason for him moving onto a different BBC show was Mary Whitehouse. Her insistent complaints and moral panic about the gothic horror nature of some of his era & the perception of the show being more violent was enough to force that. (Whitehouse was a crazy woman in how much she could do. She even became chummy with Margaret Thatcher in years thereafter.)
"It may have also been the same showrunner that attempted the idea of "The Other", which was another silly all-powerful Doctor backstory that was scrapped because, again, everyone else there knew it was an awful idea."
No, Hinchcliffe is NOT Andrew Cartmel (Or Aaronovitch, or Platt - both of whom also deserve their credit). And 'The Other' wasn't then scrapped. The novels actively continued this on, most notably leading to a conclusion with Lungbarrow in 1997.
"It seems Chibnall was a fan of this writer"
The Mindbend Doctors being preHartnells is hardly anything new. From 1976 to 2008, there was a unified intention in stories that these faces were the Doctor. Heck, one of these Doctors even shows up in the novels!
"due to how unfleshed out it seems and how many plotholes it creates rather than solving them."
I'd argue it's solved a lot more issues than people think.
"The rest of BBC and the production team would like likely stopped Chibnall."
If a showrunner nowadays was doing something the BBC didn't like, they'd stop it. And the prod. team have spoken positively of the approach.
"However, Chibnall unfortunately had the shield of "wokeness" so he likely would have claimed they fired him out of mysogyny towards Jodie Whittaker."
So aside from making this - a 30 year consistently established point - about 'wokeness'... where the heck are you coming up with that bizarre hypothetical from?
"Which is unfortunately, why this awful idea is now canon - or at least until RTD hopefully can retcon it."
Russell praised it in his preface for 'And The Time War'. Which makes sense, because Russell's first Doctor Who story was for one of the novel ranges that literally further supported these faces being the Doctor.
A high quality upload of the scene! But it was not “99.9% meant to be Morbius faces”. Philip Hinchliffe, Doctor Who showrunner at the time, said in In-Vision Issue 12 that they were meant to be The Doctors before Hartnell.
Why thank you. I should have put 50% because from how I've read it for years as Morbius' faces. I always thought those were Morbius' as from how I hear him saying, he's winning the mind battle and I thought he just died by the build up of electricity that made Morbius' then feeble mind go. Both ideas were equally valid.
@@spymasterismylife970 1:04 that's the face of morbius tho. Why would it show his face there. Then the 4 doctors. Only to go back to the morbius faces
@@TheWeepingDalek to clarify. We never actually see the transition from William Hartnell to that face. It just cuts to Sarah Jane. In that time. The faces could have went from William Hartnell to back to Morbius’ First Few Faces and then cut back here. I have a Mandela effect vision of Morbius switching back to Hartnell aswell
@@TheWeepingDalek granted you’ve given a good point but that cut to Sarah Jane could have given all the vital information we needed for this scene. Hartnell transitions to the next face could have told us immediately it was the Doctor.
Whether that was the intent or not, it is not what is onscreen. It had been stated outright onscreen before this (The Three Doctors, ca Christmas 1972) that the 1st Doctor was the First Doctor. It has been confirmed constantly, right up to the last Capaldi episode. So, from Christmas 1972 to Christmas 2017 (45 years) it had been constantly reaffirmed onscreen that the 1st Doctor was the first.
Hinchcliffe, who was the seventh producer for the series (1975-7) , hated being constrained by 12 years of established canon, and tried to sabotage it. The editors redacted his sabotage. He had effectively destroyed the series in a few years, and was fired.
That Hinchcliffe intended to unmake the existing canon is understood. That the editors stopped him and edited it so as to have the new faces be Morbius's is also understood. Onscreen, they are Morbius's faces, and were only ever the Doctor's in Hinchcliffe's and a few co-conspirators minds.
this episode was a mistake
Oh wow! My best friend in College and I saw this in the US about 1982! He made "Morbius" jokes for weeks1 RIP Marcus...
The one big question that always pops up in this is why Solon is just after the Doctors head,why not use the Fourth Doctors whole body rather than the allsorts put together body? 😁.Seriously though it's one of my alltime favourites.
If it's not on the page, it's not on the stage, and nowhere in this scene does it state these are only the doctors previous regens..........so apart from the pics of the 3 previous actors in the roll, these is nothing to indicate these are either the doctors or Morbius regens, and that is how it had stayed happily for 43 years, until Chibnall decided he would take it upon himself to mess with it for no other reason that to make his mark on the show, something it seems he could not do on his own with his writting.
so, the moment it got to Christopher Barry's incarnation, Morbius' brain overloads before he could get to the Timeless Children. This pretty much shows that, as the 7th Doctor once said: "I am far more than just another Time Lord."
44 years later these incarnations were confirmed to be The Doctor as Jodie Whittaker Doctor blew the matrix in Timeless Children
There is your timeless children BOOM! Right there.
The Doctor is the Timeless Child so those other faces might have been other he/shes.
Those other faces are Morbius' faces, not the Doctors.
@@blueshark7385 Okay.
@@blueshark7385 No The Timeless Children confirmed in the one montage that the Morbius faces are in fact incarnations of the Doctor, just from forgotten pre-Hartnell times
@@WiloPolis03 Then why do they show up there and not in any other point in the entire show? You'd think that if they were at all important they'd be mentioned at least once since they first appeared. In 'The Three Doctors it is literally confirmed that William Hartnell is the Doctor's earliest incarnation, his first one, and that was years before The Brain of Morbius. And then after the Brain of Morbius the Fifth Doctor mentions regenerating four times, meaning five incarnations. Yes they where originally intended to be the Doctor's incarnations, but that concept was quickly scrapped, ignored, and forgotten, and those faces were forever accepted by everyone as Morbius' past incarnations as he too is a Time Lord. We also never see William Hartnell's face fade into one of Morbius' faces. They aren't connected.
Chibnall wanted to "fix" a plothole that never existed, and by doing so has completely wrecked the show and introduced the largest plothole ever. The rule of Time Lords having only 12 regenerations and 13 incarnations no longer work because of him.
Also, one of the most important rules of writing Doctor Who: William Hartnell is and will always be the first Doctor. Don't interfere with his era and legacy.
@@blueshark7385I mean, it could just be that these 8 were before the Doctor took up the title of "the Doctor," and Hartnell's incarnation was the first to do so. That way, it doesn't contradict The Three Doctors, where the line was "show me the earliest Doctor."
Classic materials . Baker was the best version of Dr who 😃
Did seven years. What a legend.
@@steveandjeanniefrith236 legend indeed 🧐
he sounds like a dalek
Morbius on the BBC
The Flat Gallifrey people are out in force in the comments for this one!
Who is the face at 1:04 supposed to be?
Morbius
😅 ngl my friend is watching this season and I saw this episode. I thought it was so interesting they can compound their past lifes against each other in a mental battle. Morbius was on his 9th reincarnation at least by that machine. That's insane. The whole episode centered around immortality and the issues regarding being stagnant in life. "Maybe the doctor's right; maybe there should be an end." Great episode, great storyline, great writing imo. Hilarious comments but anyone who sees this, I highly recommend watching this story arch.
irritated at all the people talking about The Timeless Child saying, “should we consider it canon”, um sorry, it’s not your choice ? it’s literally cemented in the Doctor Who series forever no matter how much you complain about it. it will be brought up in future episodes whether you like it or not so unless you’re gonna go pay for an education to become a screenwriter and climb the ranks for years until you get a shot at writing a DW episode that retcons everything maybe just get over it 🤷♀️
just like the doctor being confirmed without a shadow of a doubt to be half-human in the movie, right?
@@neighborhoodthreattv if Doctor Who has a 'canon', it's wildly inconsistent and contradictory. But this makes perfect sense, as by its very nature the show deals with altered histories, parallel timelines and contradictory paradoxes. The in-universe history of the universe, the Time Lords and the Doctor must be continuously shifting and changing, and the Time War, Flux and Big Bang II only make it more chaotic
@@darlig.ulv.bakhjerne Not sure why this is directed at me, the person pointing out these kinds of fundamental and contradictory retcons happen all the time in the franchise, and not the OP, the person claiming what has been shown in new who is set in stone forever.
What's the new Doctor here
Thank you series 12 for making this relevant.
And thanks for ruining the series continuity, series 12.
@@Robert-tl2vg lol
Series 12 made me resent The Brain of Morbius in hindsight. Not what I'd call a win.
@@Robert-tl2vg Actually continuity was ruined when they thought up regeneration and the time lord gimmick. Before that the Doctor was human. They let go of continuity to save the show.
@@Discrimination_is_not_a_right At least with the Doctor being a Time Lord, they didn't outright say that he is a human in the show. It's the intent during the pilot, but they abandoned that in the broadcast version of An Unearthly Child. Regeneration is an asspull, I'll give you that.
how is it only 16k views
When I watched this on its original airing (I was 8) I naturally assumed this meant the Doctor had previous lives prior to the Hartnell era. However, continuity established later, and set in stone, meant that sequence became a tricky one to explain.
So, this is how I explain it:
There's an opinion that the Doctor was clearly defeated in the battle, being forced back along his timeline up until the end, and only survived because Morbius' current body couldn't withstand the power generated. I suggest that the Doctor guessed he could cause exactly such an effect, and allowed Morbius to believe he was winning, thus ensuring he'd keep pushing, his own mind cleverly inventing fake incarnations to throw as carrots on the end of the stick to keep Morbius interested. The end result obviously took it out of both of them, but Morbius was clearly damaged, while the Doctor merely fainted from the effort.
My conclusion: those faces, despite the off-camera assertion of being the Doctor, were constructs of the Doctor's mind used to fight Morbius and win. If RTD is clever enough, he'll use them to tip the Doctor to the Timeless Child being the Master's most elaborate and long-term plot, in the same way as ST:TNG's Commander Riker realised the "future" he awoke in was a fake due to his "wife" being called Minuet.
Just my thoughts, but if you're reading this, Russell, my rates are reasonable.
The problem is that the Master never lies, the Doctor did. The Master always is evily honest.
@@mayotango1317 Missy lied about the coordinates to Gallifrey in the series 8 finale, also (supposedly) about the Doctor's name being Doctor Who, and plus the whole "one of those was a lie, can you guess which one" thing
@@mayotango1317 The Master never lies? In the film, he made up a whole story to Chang Lee about who he and the Doctor really were. This is the guy who held the universe to ransom and drowned a kitten because he could - I don't think he's above lying.
@@TranscendentLion Is a american movie. Please.
@@WiloPolis03 You need to watch the Roger Delgado stories.
Oh my 4th, I love him SOOO MUCH!! He was my 1st. I am going to miss Tom Baker when he goes. I don't even want to think about that...ugghh.
Oh man 😂this is Incredible he sounds like a darlek!
Watching it doesn’t establish anything more than those are likely Morbius’ faces. If writers and producers felt differently, they were welcome to write dialogue and stories indicating that. They didn’t. Nothing is on screen saying this. (Tie in media is just that.)
I mean sure, but aren't you forgetting about the part where he yelled out "it's morbin time!" Which I would so really completely counters your argument.
@kennethos, Morbius clearly states "BACK TO YOUR BEGINNING," To the Doctor as he's viewing the Pre-Hartnell faces.
@@thegeekyskunkgamer There’s no line of dialogue that explicitly states what you want it to state. Please try again.
@@kennethos8089 "HOW LONG, DOCTOR, HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED?!" *Pre-Hartnell faces start appearing* "YOUR PUNY MIND IS POWERLESS AGAINST THE STRENGTH OF MORBIUS!! BACK!! BACK TO YOUR BEGINNING!!!!"
@@thegeekyskunkgamer Just ONE explicit line of dialogue that says there were Doctors before Hartnell? But no, there’s not even ONE line of dialogue. That’s your issue. Doesn’t matter what people meant, if it’s not SAID.
I'm not against the timeless child but I would have liked those faces to be incarnations of Morbius 😓
*Broke:* The Timeless Child retcons Doctor Who canon
*Woke:* The Timeless Child is not a retcon because of the Morbius Doctors
*Bespoke:* The Timeless Child is the newest in a long line of retcons in Doctor Who's inconsistent history
This could sooooo be interpreted as Morbius' faces.
It is
Yeah it could be if it wasn't confirmed by members of the crew making this story that they were implying there were pre Hartnell Doctors
@@readyhd8669 it was always meant to be the doctor
@@dylanhope9841 That is true, but it only mattered to the Brain of Morbius episode. Even then, JNT promptly discarded them when he casted Davison as the Fifth Doctor. (He would have been the Thirteenth Doctor if the writers took the Brain of Morbius faces as the Doctor's. Guess which route they took.)
But it wasn't
Tom Baker is hands down my favorite Dr. 😁😁😁❤️👍
Morbius went to get anadin
Morbius
This makes more sense!
Now I'm starting to understand The Timeless Children!
If those people are the Doctor from the past!?🤔
Then I see...
But this is strange!
Some of them are new!
We have never seen them before!
( Except The 1st Doctor, 2nd and 3rd Doctor! )( And no Ruth Doctor😂 )
I hate to admit it!
But Chris Chibnall did a good job!🤧 It was bad executed but it kinda work! Somehow!🤷♀️🤦♀️
I don't like the way in which Chibnall's Timeless Child lore tried to expand upon it, but I still prefer the originally intended interpretation that these are the Doctor's faces to the alternative in which they're Morbius's. The scene makes no sense otherwise. Morbius is taunting the Doctor about pushing him "back to your beginning," which would make no sense for him to say while his own faces are flashing on the screen. While Morbius clearly uses a great deal of mental energy in the duel, he's the clear winner as he's able to stagger away at the end while the Doctor can only collapse into a heap on the floor.
@@mayotango1317
That's… literally what I just said.
@@mayotango1317Do you need help reading?
Oh yes, people saying that those were Morbius faces even though he clearly says:
"back, back to *YOUR* beginning!"
People do need to study some grammar, and this is by someone who's still learning english.
But even lovin' this concept, yeah, I understand the backlash.
Why would he say “back to your beginning” if they were supposedly already going through the doctors incarnations
@@p.p3152 because he's going through each incarnation in reverse-order. The viewscreen shows the Fourth, Third, Second and First Doctors, then the pre-Hartnell Doctors. With every face displayed on the screen, Morbius is going further and further back along the Doctor's timeline, but he is stopped before he can reach the Doctor's beginning (which has now been established as the 'Timeless Child' incarnations)
Those faces are morbious
No they are not.. They are the faces of previous Doctors, As mentioned by the series producer at the time Philip Hinchcliffe in the reference book "Doctor Who: A history of the universe. The faces are of various members of production staff, the original plan being to use well known actors, however Dr Who with it's obvious budget constraints couldn't afford it.
1:37 to 1:54
Is that ALL of Morbius's past regenerations or is the Doctor just using that mind bending machine to toi with Morbius ?
why dosen't the later Doctors have a Mustache?
@@conradojavier7547 nope
I firmly bracket the timeless child with the "Doctor was half-human " from the tv movie...never heard that mentioned since - and I doubt we'll ever hear of the tc nonsense again....🤔
They alluded to it in the most recent episode