For those of us old enough to have lived in The Church prior to 1978, WE REMEMBER LEADERS TEACHING about those of Black Heritage who were Second Class Pre-Existent Spirits...not valiant during "The War in Heaven." It was just accepted as "gospel" by most of the Membership. I was 16 when Pres Kimball announced his "Revelation." What a relief that that period was over...but we STILL accepted that GOD HAD DECIDED IT WAS TIME FOR BLACKS TO GET OUT OF PRIESTHOOD JAIL.
McKay is exactly why we should always question authority. As a former history teacher with an emphasis in historical analysis, having a lawyer in charge of history is akin to having a butcher be charge of thoracic surgery at a major hospital.
WHEW! That was Incredible! I heard a quote from RJ Spina yesterday: “We can’t move past what we don’t understand.” Thank you ALL for helping us understand!
This Church historian graduated from a law school that bears the name of the apostle that made famous the quote. "If we have the truth, it cannot not be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed." - J. Reuben Clark.
Why is it always so difficult for the church and it’s leaders to have its members look up information. Anything else in life that’s important I am going to find out all the facts. If I decide to invest in a company, and that company withholds important information from me, then possibly there goes my life saving, etc. causing financial harm to me and my family. I lost way too many years of my time and money, emotional and mental health by not fact checking. Trying to prevent that for others is not a bad thing. Kudos to you and your peeps Nemo!
Literally one of the best conversations I've heard of where the church is now and why members are struggling so much at this point in time. Thanks for hosting and sharing!
Well, maybe if one is always drinking too much "beer at Moessers" (apparently a beer purveyor favored by Joseph Smith). Who knows what else Joe drank? I suspect that he was a mean drunk. Jokes aside, the way some of these leaders just use the word "mistakes" like a general, catch-all term that means the same thing as "ordinary human peccadilloes" and then imply or expressly state that anyone who focuses on any leader's "mistakes" is therefore petty, mean and vindictive...is just ridiculous. When one "prophet" teaches an entire generation to worship as their "only god" a being who, as it turns out, is not even a god (yet) according to subsequent leaders, that's not just a trifling little mistake.
Ruth is spot on. Those of us who were in for years most regret our blindness while teaching others. Yes, I miss some of the people I loved so much, but I value the truth, and my ability to think for myself, more. Thank you for this discussion.
@julienelson8162, If you value truth, be more sceptical. When a source supports your beliefs assess it again, when evidence opposes your beliefs explore it. I give credit to this channel but sadly they are the occasional videos full of intellectual dishonesty like this one, this discussion is plain deception. This discussion supported my beliefs so I explored it and assessed it again, sadly this turns out to be deception. I looked at and listened to the whole speech, the title of the speech and the parts not included in this video show Nemo is talking about one thing, and Kyle is talking about an entirely different subject, they are not discussing the same thing. If you listen to the whole talk, “answers are not the solution” is entirely true. Let’s question it, solution for what? This video is claiming answering the questions is the solution to stop people leaving, Kyle is not talking about people leaving the church nor why they’re leaving the church. Listen to the whole discussion and hear he is talking about developing a testimony of Christ, his talk has nothing to do with membership. We’ll take the $32 billion hidden away as an example. If the church provided all members an explanation, an answer to why they did that would that increase their faith in Christ? No, so answers to the problems mentioned is not the solution to increasing and developing a testimony in Christ. People can leave the church and still have a testimony of Jesus Christ, but it’s not the answers to the questions where their testimony of Christ came from. If truth is what you’re interested in, always be sceptical of anything that supports your present beliefs, and open minded when presented with evidence against your present beliefs, explore the evidence to see if it is false evidence appearing real like this discussion.
Excellent conversation on this talk. It’s mind blowing how the leaders are literally telling college kids: finding answers is not the solution. How’s that excuse going to work on the final exams?
Not to mention court, medical diagnoses, if medications really work, engineering problems, assembly directions, operating directions, piloting airplanes, travel directions, whether your spouse is lying to you and having an affair, whether or not dictators are really murdering people for ethnic reasons, if God really exists. Answers matter.
Answers are not the solution is actually true, let me give you a few examples. I don’t know why the church hid $32 billion, anyone who’s left because of this crime, if someone answered “why did you perform this financial crime?” Would the answer make them stay an active faithful member? If someone asked “why do you spend as little as 1% of donations on helping those in need?” Would their answer make a person faithful? An answer to any question most likely won’t make a difference, regardless of the answer what they did is wrong and the person will still have the view that a financial crime is not right, it won’t restore faith.
So interesting. And Kyle was my Sunday School teacher when I was at BYU in 1982-1983. I really liked his style, then, and he wrote a beautiful poem called "Give the Baton to the Lord," where he compared life to a relay race. I think I still have the handwritten copy of that, even though I long ago left the church. Too bad that this is where life leads a person, to say things that don't correspond with reality.
I like the point that Jane made that Satan doesn't have to do a thing, that the church ascribes nearly everything under the sun to his efforts. It's true that Satan doesn't even need to exist, because his existence is created as "the one in opposition to everything we claim to believe." A literal strawman. A scapegoat. And a reminder that in Hebrew, the name "Satan" just means "aversary."
@@ArtistAllanWest ...or "Light Bearer". Think of a man "carrying a torch". BUT, as we learned, he 'was' Lucifer before he became "HaSatam" [The Adversary].
@@suzannedehaven6775 The following appears in Merriam Webster.. (Quoted verbatim) What we sometimes call “the morning star” is really the planet Venus. The Romans called it Lucifer, meaning “bearer of light,” because it appeared in the sky just before sunrise. So when, in the Old Testament, the prophet Isaiah says, in describing the downfall of the king of Babylon, “How are you fallen from heaven, O Morning Star, son of dawn,” the “Morning Star” became Lucifer in the Latin translation. Early Christians thought that Isaiah was also referring to the devil who had likewise “fallen from heaven.” Thus the word Lucifer came to be applied to the devil.
This is a huge issue for me. Being able to trust the guidance of those I was promised were receiving holy guidance for my life is more than just a matter of feeling good or having some uncomfortable doubts. On my mission, it nearly lead to my death twice.
I'm over 60...and was born and raised in the Church. Have done it all. I was "promised" that Prophets CAN'T lead The Church astray. But, there are plenty of Church History moments or years or decades or over 100 years, where that was not true.
@@krismurphy7711 Today’s church leaders aren’t responsible for all the lies because they were taught the same lies. When I were learning about the church I were looking through and asking critics as well because I trust skepticism, thankfully one critic showed me Joseph F. Smith said he thought Joseph Smith never used seer stones in the church’s own material. Who would church members believe, J. F. Smith or critics? Surely J. S. Smith, especially as I’ve always seen leaders discouraging members looking at any anti-church material, information control. So all the way back in the 19th century they already stopped telling the truth about how the Book of Mormon was translated. I see the church leaders publishing the gospel topic essays is progression, they have done better than their parents and have reversed by critics provoking church leaders Joseph F. Smith’s incorrect view of the translation of the Book of Mormon. I’m disappointed with members of my own Ward in the UK, I began informing members the church hiding $32 billion and the Ensign Peak, I checked the newspapers in Utah for a confirmation. Sadly, members I’ve informed don’t believe me and have tried to discourage me. I can give the church leaders the benefit of the doubt about the denial of the past replacing the truth claims with the gospel topic essays, but I can’t let them off the hook for financial fraud as if it wasn’t intentional. The church leaders are guilty, but not as guilty as they’re been held for as they were taught the same lies from my view.
I cringe hard when I’m asked to explain where I graduated: named after a Polygamist and it’s accreditation hanging by a thread until Jeffery R Holland becomes president. 🤦♂️
I just enjoy all of you so much and appreciate you tackling all these issues that need to be addressed. I love the British My desire is to come to England and see the land of my ancestors.
Answers ARE the solution. Born again Christian for 60 yrs i.still to this day i asks questions about my faith so that I will get answers. I have learned all years that asking questions to receive answers will not damage my faith in God and the Bible. Christianity can withstand any questions we have. In receiving answers my faith is strengthened.and i grow in faith. Mormons leave the church when they begin to ask questions tions.about church history, church doctrined and the history of joesph smiths life. When they real8ze 5hey have been deceived and lied to Mormons leave the church.and take their tithe & offerings money with them. And the church hierarchy loses not only money but their power over people which they lust after as m7ch as their l7st over mammon.
The leaders have truly reached a new level of desperation; their Mode of Operation is to attack the listener and try to make them feel guilty when it is not warranted. There was no love expressed in that talk - just smoke and mirrors and gaslighting. Weird!
29:30 Lawyers work for their Client. Lawyers try to get the guilty set free. Lawyers are not obligated to argue ALL the facts...they can omit facts in order to make their case. (Nemo a minute later...SPOT ON!!)
I'm trying to imagine how I would feel if I had heard this talk while I was at BYU (early 80's). I probably would've just felt bad and not thought too much about it. I actually left during college. The breaking point for me is how could God create gay people and then condemn them. Couldn't get past that. So glad I didn't raise my trans-daughter in this cult.
While I don't believe God " creates" gays the fact is that Jesus died on the Cross for everyone..blood atonement is NOT selective..choosing to redeem sinners based on their sexual orientation or specific church denomination. However as a true believer in the inerrant, infallible Word of God it is quite clear from the Scriptures that God is love and we too are to love, not judge nor condemn others. I left a church because the hatred for guys was quite evident.
I just love your RUclips presentations. You are so good at entertaining but also so informative!! I am SO proud of all of you and respect you for your honesty!! Keep up the good work! You are really appreciated!!!
A really good book, but rare, is "Confessions of a Church Historian". It's the biography of Leonard Arrington. I have a copy. He, as politely as possible, says that Packer was a jerk. He relates many stories that make the church look like the organization it is.
I met Leonard Arrington more than 50 years ago, when my wife and I traveled "Out West" (because there were few temples in the Church, at that time: and the U.S.-based temples were all out there, beyond the Mississippi River.) Arrington was "polite, yet distant", as a person: but with a real sense of purpose. I liked the man.
How to do it better than Joseph: 1. Don't have 4 different versions of a visionary encounter you float around and leave to others to decide what will fit the Official narrative. 2. When creating Bible fan fiction have enough of a historical knowledge to create the variety of problems others have noted- especially English verbatim ripping of DuteroIsaiah including the Septuagint errors and modifications of early Christianity. 3. Don't claim powers of translation and leave behind evidence to the contrary- the Book of Abraham, The Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar, and Papyrus exposing the crime. Also Kinderhook plates... 4. Don't obfuscate the truth of your philandering heart, shift your reasoning to Godly command, and gaslight your spouse concerning deity commandments. Don't repeatedly lie to your spouse about who you are involved with at what times or restage marriages and pretend like it's the first time. 5. Don't run from your own religious discipline when caught by your wife. Fanny Alger was the Jim & Tammy Far Baker moment he failed to appropriately resolve that ultimately grew into the Polygamy monster. 6. Don't counterfeit. 7. Don't destroy the press. 8. Don't run leaders out of town and ignore agreements made with Government leaders... Joseph is ultimately more to blame for Missouri than Boggs. He wouldn't have been though if he had stayed in Kirtland and faced the Fanny inquiry. Doing better than Joseph Smith Jr. is easy. It involves a simple temple recommend question about being honest in your dealings with other people. If you couldn't do better than Joseph you shouldn't attend the temple. 🤔🤷
The Brethren need to be Mirandized -- remaining silent would be better than what they are doing. I just don't know how they think telling the young people there are a lot of problems with Church history but they should just ignore it is helping them.
Very true. And why not just switch the words '"doubt" and "believe" ? i.e. Stare down compelling reasons to believe and choose to doubt! Using his "reasoning" here, we could defend absolutely any religious or political views, and non belief too. It's just a way of not examining your own beliefs. As a Mormon it seems McKay has not considered that non Mormons could use this way of defence also.
Elder Kyle Mackay was introduced by Henry B Eyring's (who is alos Henry B Eyring) son before giving the talk. This reminds of of my honeymoon 18 years ago in Tokyo when we attended a stake conference there on a Sunday. When Henry B Eyring's son was speaking (he was serving as a mission president somewhere in Japan) , I was amazed by how identical they were to each other (they were just like twins). It was not just the appearance. The son's voice, tone, facial expression, gestures... were simply the copy of his father. I joked to my wife that if President Eyring wanted to skip the First Presidency meeting, he could send his son to attend it and Hinkely and Monson propably couldn't tell. It was really possible at that time when Eyring looked much younger than he is now.
I love you Britvengers; this is a wonderful break-down of why his method is NOT the way to help faithful members to draw comfort from the surety that the religion offers but does not deliver. It really is the plan of Satan as taught to me so many years ago. I too have noticed how much of a come-back Satan has made in talks, but what I hear is 'not so much' in the endowment at the temple. I guess there are more people listening to these talks - captive audiences, than those attending the temple anyhow.
In an ideal world, yes, a historian's role is to obtain and compile the most complete and factual record of an event or events as possible, without regard to what the conclusions are. In practice, of course, it often depends on who is employing the historian and why (not to mention any personal agendas, opinions or fears that shape the historian's efforts and findings). This is reflected in the way the term "court historian" (referring to the royal historian) is used to refer to a person whose job it is to shape (and even fabricate) a history that reflects positively on the royalty or, in other contexts, a history that serves the institutions that the "historian" is aligned with. It is also the case that good lawyers definitely should be as fully aware of the complete truth as possible that are relevant to any case they are involved in, in order to advocate effectively for their client. Any lawyer who willfully avoids learning inconvenient truths is a lawyer who is vulnerable to being blind-sided by facts presented by the opposing side. So, ideally, both the lawyer and historian should be dedicated to discovering unvarnished and complete truth. The only question is determining if and when either of them is in advocacy mode when they are making a presentation to you, or whether they are acting as a disinterested and objective presenter. McKay is clearly in advocacy mode, so there's no reason for objectively minded people to take him seriously. The fact that he is a lawyer by training may make him feel less guilty or troubled when presenting a one-sided, slanted and distorted view of things to the extent that he views himself as an advocate.
Excellent comment. I don't disagree with the opinions of this group that ideally historians should research and then form and share their own conclusions, but realistically the questions being asked of history are always going to be biased and as you say, if a historian is hired to seek out certain answers then that's what they'll find.
Super thrilled to hear Peter's commentary on Kyle McKay using Jane Manning James story. As a historian, Kyle retelling of Jane Manning James story should have included how she was mistreated in the church. Now Kyle wants to add his testimony with Jane's with comfort and convenience. I wonder if Kyle would have endured similar treatment and remained faithful if he were in Jane's shoes. He can reference Jane's story now without acknowledging the trauma she was subjected to at the hands of Mormon church leaders, including being sealed in servitude for all eternity to the Smith family.
Jacob Hess Brad Wilcox David Glen Hatch Kyle McKay Who next will be added to the list of those giving bizarre and cringeable talks defending Mormonism?
Jane, you mentioned how the young adult age group is so vulnerable.. How about those, who were preached to from birth, as in the kids of BYU professors, like myself. We were quoting scriptures at the dinner table before the blessing on the food. My whole vocabulary and way of thinking was rooted in the dogma. Every thought that ever entered my head was in some way linked to Mormon thinking.
Even the beloved Nephi didn’t fully believe the direction his father Lehi received and prayed about it until he received confirmation himself. I can’t believe they no longer promote people getting their own confirmation and testimonies through prayer. I’m so glad I left.
33:40 The 1832 First Version of The First Vision, handwritten by Joseph Smith, is completely factual since it exists and we have the actual published image. That completely blows out of the water the LATER Versions which conflict with it. The Devil did not do it. The Devil did not tell Joseph to modify The Versions, over time...... OR DID HE???
24:20 Sticking to LDS Church.... HOW COULD A JESUS DIRECTED RESTORATION OF HIS GOSPEL, NOT GO 100% AOK??? How could The Church every make a mistake? Prophets who mislead? Leaders who sin?? This is not Jesus's first time at this...but the claimed "Restoration" should be a flawless process AND HAVE REACHED the 8 billion people on the Earth, rather than the 1/1000 it has.
The Church rebranding was ridiculous and the error underscored by the fact that they couldn't put "The" on the front of the domain because it is owned by an offshoot.
This is part of the classic double-standard in the church, though. They would never, ever want those like JW's to treat Mormon presentations, claims, and evidence with the same kind of disregard and instead stand firmly upon their own beliefs no matter what. They want other people to investigate compelling evidence, and consider it the noble and right thing to do, just not if their own people do it. The reasons for that double-standard being necessary are very important.
so his point is "you wouldn't be able to tell if Satan was the church leader" and he's trying to tell them they shouldn't be worried? I'd be worried and I'm not even a christian 😄👍
@@patricianewhart3576 you're somehow missing the point just so you can express your disdain for them not being christians which is a wonderful example for the holy passive-aggressive christian attitude 😄 who cares ? they're also no Muslims making their religion not less real 😁
48:58 you’re 100% right Ms Jane, our queer kiddo only felt safe enough to disclose their suicidal feelings from church-delivered messages after we had decided that we were out
I just watched this. Just so bums me out. I’m a 63 year old widow of 33 years. Lifetime member of the church. 3 months ago the house I was living in was to be torn down so they kicked me out. Later to find it that that was a lie. The owners, my stake president, wanted me out to rebuild to make more money on the house. I had no where to go. Was November. Cold. I live in Utah. I had to live in my car. Rent is too much here. I called my bishop. He wouldn’t talk to me. My RS pres. Called me and told me to go to the local homeless shelter. I was devastated. In this 2 months in my car with my dog I did a lot of thinking. And wondered if one day Jesus popped into the local temple for a visit and the leaders were there…. Saying, “ Look look at this $20,000 chair we bought for you to sit in. Under this $50,000 chandelier. Aren’t you pleased”?! I would think Jesus would choose not to sit and look them in the eye and ask…. “Where is my daughter, D, is she warm? Is she safe? Do you know where she is”? That’s when I began to question them.
In seconds into the first clip, and immediately distracted by the electronic reverb they add to his voice to put the standard authoritative LDS sound into the talk. Reproduce the sound that came from the tabernacle because an important GA type talk just ain’t that without the reverb
Parley P Pratt left the church briefly and publicly criticized Joseph Smith in 1837 because the Kirkland Safety society was repossessing his house because he had been on a mission and then his wife died and he was behind on payments of the property he had purchased at an inflated price from Joseph Smith. Letter reprinted in multiple pamphlets at the time and also in Joseph Smith Papers.
Everyone who sees this will feel that little bit dumber..... 😆🤣🤣🤣...... wow, to get up there and treat everyone like they're idiots..... unbelievable!!
I believe the higher up in the church you get the less you believe the church. As common members you’re taught by parents, also common members to believe the scriptures and the church leaders. As you get higher up you see more of what’s hidden and by the time you reach the upper level of the church your belief is gone. At this point you’re in on the grift. And if you are still a believer you are mentally ill because a sane person can’t believe that the prophet actually talks to god.
Could you include links to these people's socials in the bio or a pinned comment? I was really interested in that Jane Manning bit around 1:31:00 and I want to look up Peter.
There’s a rule scientists follow that I love and promote. “If you are provided evidence that support your prior beliefs, look at it again, and be sceptical. If you are provided evidence against your prior beliefs, be open minded and investigate and explore.” Evidence and proof are not the same, evidence doesn’t always prove which is why scientists look for more evidence for their hypothesis or theory until there’s enough evidence to prove. As soon as people let go of scepticism, they are walking into dangerous territory. Talking about clinicians, clinicians are entering dangerous territory today with CRISPR or gene editing, they don’t seem very sceptical about eliminating genetic diversity and that scientists still know so little out of what there is to know about genetics. Scientists are in the process of moving from molecular biology into developmental biology, they’re entering a minefield.
If Satan is the source of doubts, then what does that tell investigators? The growth of the religion depends upon people in other religions having doubts and seeking answers their faith can't seem to answer. He's actually creating greater cognitive dissonance especially for young people who may be preparing to serve a mission and answer the questions of people from other religions. 🤦
There seem to be many problematic issues within this Church. As with any denomination or organisation for that matter misdeeds or worse seem to be covered up as the initial response by the relevant authorities. All demoninations seem to be guilty of this including Saint Peters Church.
Faith per se has never been a virtue. The church just constantly talks about it as though it is, without ever explaining why "having faith" is in and of itself a good thing. Literally every wacky cult that has ever existed has only been successful to the extent that it convinced people to have "faith" in it. Certainty and knowledge is always superior to faith. Faith is a form of desperation...something that people default to in circumstances where it is not possible to have certainty and knowledge. If one is confronted with "compelling reasons to doubt" one's faith, choosing to ignore such reasons is the height of foolishness.
According to McKay 'Answers are not the solution.' It is obvious that McKay does not understand that Joseph Smith sought answers to questions by asking God. In the index of The Book of Mormon 1981 edition, page 165 one will see the verb INQUIRE ( see ASK; PRAY; QUESTION;SEEK ). McKay needs to study essential LDS source material, ie, The Book of Mormon and The Doctrine & Covenants.
I don't mind lawyers as arguers, if they follow the same model that law requires. There needs to be an opposition that argued against them, and a judge to ensure everyone plays by the rules so the jury can decide without impediment
Have you ever been in court? Judges vary wildly. There are some truly terrible ones. And no semblance of impartiality, fairness, or the slightest whiff of common sense or intelligence. Or rules.
Oh, I totally agree that there is some serious change to the legal system that needs happening, but the point I want to make is that, in theory there are mechanisms in place to fairly try someone. In the church setting however, there are deliberate and overpowering attempts to prevent a fair "trial".
I was always told that the only sin Joseph Smith was guilty of was levity. Now that all the real dirt has come out against him, I find it highly suspicious that the leaders don't even deny it. They look like complete fools grasping at straws to cover up for this man who they claim is second only to Jesus when it comes to personal righteousness. Unbelievable!!!
They can make mistakes, but they have to own up to them and correct the mistake. If they are being guided by God, then they should be making less mistakes than the rest of us.
Nothing. I get zero, zilch, none, spirit from that speaker or any of them. I used to love President Uchtdorf as he actually just seemed to understand people but this new rhetoric of do as I say and shut off your actual critical brain (God given, the Glory of God is Intelligence and all that...) it just seems something is very wrong here and I'm so glad people are trusting their instincts
Also don't ever question the errors of leaders but definitely punish and shame any error of the regular members as this free pass doesn't apply to them 🤔
Don’t disagree with a lot of your sentiment but the comparison of the choice of a surgeon to choice of religious belief is a false equivalency and produces a straw man argument. The choice of a surgeon as you framed it in your discussion, is based on objective criteria in making a rational material decision while faith based decisions entertain input and “evidence,” that may be transcendental in nature. Another way of looking at this is that a scientist does not have the tools to defeat a religionist and vice versa. An honest dialogue between them needs to stick to pointing out the other’s inconsistency with that others system of belief or inquiry. The most powerful criticism of the Church is based on points where leaders are easily demonstrated to be hypocritical.
In an historical context, no church leader has ever been a theologian or has been trained in theology. Also, Mormonism doesn't have a well defined theology to begin with, so they are having to make it up on the go. I believe, not to defend them, that this has made them a bit defensive in their actions. On top of this, the leadership is very well educated and have been very successful in their personal and business lives. For this reason they have come to believe, unconsciously in some cases, that they are better than the rest of us and they strike out at those who would then question them or point out errors, issues, etc. that would make them look bad. I'm not defending them. They need to get over themselves, come back down to earth where the rest of us live and work together with and for us.
1:01:17 Oh shoot! Nemo, you’ve got to stop buying what the church claims about Joseph and read the actual writings and publications of Joseph, Hyrum, and Emma themselves!🙏🏼 The church’s official church history still used today is the history written by BRIGHAM which he undertook immediately following the convenient deaths of the 3 smith brothers. Seriously, I hope you’ll research it because it is even more compelling than the hearsay quotes and “affidavits” trying to paint Joseph as a polygamist and Emma as a psycho years after Joseph and Hyrum were dead and unable to defend themselves. Have Michelle Stone or Rob Fotheringham come on your awesome show!👏🏼 Watch their videos to see documentation! Love your videos!
Is there anything True about the corpus of the Mormon theological claims? What is it about the cultural collective that you want to keep going? Why not just become C of E
Oops! You guys don’t know the history very well! Study up Nemo. You have work to do as do the other people on this video. Check out Rob Fotheringham. He will give you a good start to finding the truth of the restoration and what actually happened.
"Answers are not the solution. " No. That is something a dissembler would say. Stop with gymnastics already! Stop lying for the Lord. Clear answers actually ARE the solution. Speak the truth.
Curious how many exmo's start out with Umm Joseph married how many? He translated the Book of Abraham how? 14 weeks later and a CES letter and 2 starbuck latte's later, they no longer believe Jesus is the Christ. /golf clap to Luci boy.
For those of us old enough to have lived in The Church prior to 1978, WE REMEMBER LEADERS TEACHING about those of Black Heritage who were Second Class Pre-Existent Spirits...not valiant during "The War in Heaven." It was just accepted as "gospel" by most of the Membership. I was 16 when Pres Kimball announced his "Revelation." What a relief that that period was over...but we STILL accepted that GOD HAD DECIDED IT WAS TIME FOR BLACKS TO GET OUT OF PRIESTHOOD JAIL.
Read above.
Yes! Thank you!
McKay is exactly why we should always question authority. As a former history teacher with an emphasis in historical analysis, having a lawyer in charge of history is akin to having a butcher be charge of thoracic surgery at a major hospital.
WHEW! That was Incredible!
I heard a quote from RJ Spina yesterday:
“We can’t move past what we don’t understand.”
Thank you ALL for helping us understand!
This Church historian graduated from a law school that bears the name of the apostle that made famous the quote. "If we have the truth, it cannot not be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed." - J. Reuben Clark.
Why is it always so difficult for the church and it’s leaders to have its members look up information. Anything else in life that’s important I am going to find out all the facts. If I decide to invest in a company, and that company withholds important information from me, then possibly there
goes my life saving, etc. causing financial harm to me and my family. I lost way too many years of my time and money, emotional and mental health by not fact checking. Trying to prevent that for others is not a bad thing. Kudos to you and your peeps Nemo!
Literally one of the best conversations I've heard of where the church is now and why members are struggling so much at this point in time. Thanks for hosting and sharing!
My pleasure!
You don't accidentally get married to 30+ people. Those are not mistakes.
This is the truth! Molesting minors isn’t a small mistake either, it’s not something you can just brush to the side.
Exactly! And Joseph was only married to Emma. BY was a liar.
@@Kristy_not_Kristine nonsense. Believe the victims. Joseph married 30 + females. I do agree the BY was a liar.
Well, maybe if one is always drinking too much "beer at Moessers" (apparently a beer purveyor favored by Joseph Smith). Who knows what else Joe drank? I suspect that he was a mean drunk. Jokes aside, the way some of these leaders just use the word "mistakes" like a general, catch-all term that means the same thing as "ordinary human peccadilloes" and then imply or expressly state that anyone who focuses on any leader's "mistakes" is therefore petty, mean and vindictive...is just ridiculous. When one "prophet" teaches an entire generation to worship as their "only god" a being who, as it turns out, is not even a god (yet) according to subsequent leaders, that's not just a trifling little mistake.
Jacob 2:30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
Ruth is spot on. Those of us who were in for years most regret our blindness while teaching others. Yes, I miss some of the people I loved so much, but I value the truth, and my ability to think for myself, more. Thank you for this discussion.
@julienelson8162,
If you value truth, be more sceptical. When a source supports your beliefs assess it again, when evidence opposes your beliefs explore it.
I give credit to this channel but sadly they are the occasional videos full of intellectual dishonesty like this one, this discussion is plain deception. This discussion supported my beliefs so I explored it and assessed it again, sadly this turns out to be deception.
I looked at and listened to the whole speech, the title of the speech and the parts not included in this video show Nemo is talking about one thing, and Kyle is talking about an entirely different subject, they are not discussing the same thing. If you listen to the whole talk, “answers are not the solution” is entirely true.
Let’s question it, solution for what? This video is claiming answering the questions is the solution to stop people leaving, Kyle is not talking about people leaving the church nor why they’re leaving the church. Listen to the whole discussion and hear he is talking about developing a testimony of Christ, his talk has nothing to do with membership.
We’ll take the $32 billion hidden away as an example. If the church provided all members an explanation, an answer to why they did that would that increase their faith in Christ? No, so answers to the problems mentioned is not the solution to increasing and developing a testimony in Christ.
People can leave the church and still have a testimony of Jesus Christ, but it’s not the answers to the questions where their testimony of Christ came from.
If truth is what you’re interested in, always be sceptical of anything that supports your present beliefs, and open minded when presented with evidence against your present beliefs, explore the evidence to see if it is false evidence appearing real like this discussion.
Excellent conversation on this talk. It’s mind blowing how the leaders are literally telling college kids: finding answers is not the solution. How’s that excuse going to work on the final exams?
Not to mention court, medical diagnoses, if medications really work, engineering problems, assembly directions, operating directions, piloting airplanes, travel directions, whether your spouse is lying to you and having an affair, whether or not dictators are really murdering people for ethnic reasons, if God really exists. Answers matter.
Answers are not the solution is actually true, let me give you a few examples.
I don’t know why the church hid $32 billion, anyone who’s left because of this crime, if someone answered “why did you perform this financial crime?” Would the answer make them stay an active faithful member?
If someone asked “why do you spend as little as 1% of donations on helping those in need?” Would their answer make a person faithful?
An answer to any question most likely won’t make a difference, regardless of the answer what they did is wrong and the person will still have the view that a financial crime is not right, it won’t restore faith.
Historians try to find the truth, lawyers defend one side only. Brilliant Nemo!
Thanks!
So interesting. And Kyle was my Sunday School teacher when I was at BYU in 1982-1983. I really liked his style, then, and he wrote a beautiful poem called "Give the Baton to the Lord," where he compared life to a relay race. I think I still have the handwritten copy of that, even though I long ago left the church. Too bad that this is where life leads a person, to say things that don't correspond with reality.
I like the point that Jane made that Satan doesn't have to do a thing, that the church ascribes nearly everything under the sun to his efforts. It's true that Satan doesn't even need to exist, because his existence is created as "the one in opposition to everything we claim to believe." A literal strawman. A scapegoat. And a reminder that in Hebrew, the name "Satan" just means "aversary."
Even more interesting may be the fact that Lucifer means bringer of light.
@@ArtistAllanWest
...or "Light Bearer".
Think of a man "carrying a torch".
BUT, as we learned, he 'was' Lucifer before he became "HaSatam" [The Adversary].
@@ArtistAllanWest no..lucifer means "the morning star"
@@suzannedehaven6775 The following appears in Merriam Webster.. (Quoted verbatim) What we sometimes call “the morning star” is really the planet Venus. The Romans called it Lucifer, meaning “bearer of light,” because it appeared in the sky just before sunrise. So when, in the Old Testament, the prophet Isaiah says, in describing the downfall of the king of Babylon, “How are you fallen from heaven, O Morning Star, son of dawn,” the “Morning Star” became Lucifer in the Latin translation. Early Christians thought that Isaiah was also referring to the devil who had likewise “fallen from heaven.” Thus the word Lucifer came to be applied to the devil.
This is a huge issue for me. Being able to trust the guidance of those I was promised were receiving holy guidance for my life is more than just a matter of feeling good or having some uncomfortable doubts. On my mission, it nearly lead to my death twice.
I'm over 60...and was born and raised in the Church. Have done it all. I was "promised" that Prophets CAN'T lead The Church astray. But, there are plenty of Church History moments or years or decades or over 100 years, where that was not true.
@@krismurphy7711
Today’s church leaders aren’t responsible for all the lies because they were taught the same lies.
When I were learning about the church I were looking through and asking critics as well because I trust skepticism, thankfully one critic showed me Joseph F. Smith said he thought Joseph Smith never used seer stones in the church’s own material. Who would church members believe, J. F. Smith or critics? Surely J. S. Smith, especially as I’ve always seen leaders discouraging members looking at any anti-church material, information control. So all the way back in the 19th century they already stopped telling the truth about how the Book of Mormon was translated.
I see the church leaders publishing the gospel topic essays is progression, they have done better than their parents and have reversed by critics provoking church leaders Joseph F. Smith’s incorrect view of the translation of the Book of Mormon.
I’m disappointed with members of my own Ward in the UK, I began informing members the church hiding $32 billion and the Ensign Peak, I checked the newspapers in Utah for a confirmation. Sadly, members I’ve informed don’t believe me and have tried to discourage me. I can give the church leaders the benefit of the doubt about the denial of the past replacing the truth claims with the gospel topic essays, but I can’t let them off the hook for financial fraud as if it wasn’t intentional.
The church leaders are guilty, but not as guilty as they’re been held for as they were taught the same lies from my view.
Any time I hear "degree from BYU", I roll my eyes.
I do feel like its reputation suffers every time this sort of nonsense is delivered over the pulpit!
LMAO!!
I cringe hard when I’m asked to explain where I graduated: named after a Polygamist and it’s accreditation hanging by a thread until Jeffery R Holland becomes president. 🤦♂️
@@NEMOTHEMORMONAgreed.🙄
I just enjoy all of you so much and appreciate you tackling all these issues that need to be addressed. I love the British My desire is to come to England and see the land of my ancestors.
Answers ARE the solution. Born again Christian for 60 yrs i.still to this day i asks questions about my faith so that I will get answers. I have learned all years that asking questions to receive answers will not damage my faith in God and the Bible. Christianity can withstand any questions we have. In receiving answers my faith is strengthened.and i grow in faith. Mormons leave the church when they begin to ask questions tions.about church history, church doctrined and the history of joesph smiths life. When they real8ze 5hey have been deceived and lied to Mormons leave the church.and take their tithe & offerings money with them. And the church hierarchy loses not only money but their power over people which they lust after as m7ch as their l7st over mammon.
The leaders have truly reached a new level of desperation; their Mode of Operation is to attack the listener and try to make them feel guilty when it is not warranted. There was no love expressed in that talk - just smoke and mirrors and gaslighting. Weird!
Actually same old same old... Blame the members!!
My greatxxxx grandmother was an English convert… welcome to 100+ years of insanity. You guys rock!
Same. I’m a descendant of BY, the pervert responsible for slavery, murder, abuse, and pedophelia. The dysfunction in my family is soooo present!
29:30 Lawyers work for their Client. Lawyers try to get the guilty set free. Lawyers are not obligated to argue ALL the facts...they can omit facts in order to make their case. (Nemo a minute later...SPOT ON!!)
Why are 90 percent of the leadership lawyers?? Pretty easy to figure ain't it??
I'm trying to imagine how I would feel if I had heard this talk while I was at BYU (early 80's). I probably would've just felt bad and not thought too much about it. I actually left during college. The breaking point for me is how could God create gay people and then condemn them. Couldn't get past that. So glad I didn't raise my trans-daughter in this cult.
This church caused my beloved and gay sister so much pain. She tried so hard to fit in.
While I don't believe God " creates" gays the fact is that Jesus died on the Cross for everyone..blood atonement is NOT selective..choosing to redeem sinners based on their sexual orientation or specific church denomination. However as a true believer in the inerrant, infallible Word of God it is quite clear from the Scriptures that God is love and we too are to love, not judge nor condemn others. I left a church because the hatred for guys was quite evident.
I just love your RUclips presentations. You are so good at entertaining but also so informative!! I am SO proud of all of you and respect you for your honesty!! Keep up the good work! You are really appreciated!!!
Great conversation and many good points made. This struggle is real.
A really good book, but rare, is "Confessions of a Church Historian". It's the biography of Leonard Arrington. I have a copy. He, as politely as possible, says that Packer was a jerk. He relates many stories that make the church look like the organization it is.
I’ll have to look at getting a copy!
I met Leonard Arrington more than 50 years ago, when my wife and I traveled "Out West" (because there were few temples in the Church, at that time: and the U.S.-based temples were all out there, beyond the Mississippi River.)
Arrington was "polite, yet distant", as a person: but with a real sense of purpose. I liked the man.
How to do it better than Joseph:
1. Don't have 4 different versions of a visionary encounter you float around and leave to others to decide what will fit the Official narrative.
2. When creating Bible fan fiction have enough of a historical knowledge to create the variety of problems others have noted- especially English verbatim ripping of DuteroIsaiah including the Septuagint errors and modifications of early Christianity.
3. Don't claim powers of translation and leave behind evidence to the contrary- the Book of Abraham, The Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar, and Papyrus exposing the crime. Also Kinderhook plates...
4. Don't obfuscate the truth of your philandering heart, shift your reasoning to Godly command, and gaslight your spouse concerning deity commandments. Don't repeatedly lie to your spouse about who you are involved with at what times or restage marriages and pretend like it's the first time.
5. Don't run from your own religious discipline when caught by your wife. Fanny Alger was the Jim & Tammy Far Baker moment he failed to appropriately resolve that ultimately grew into the Polygamy monster.
6. Don't counterfeit.
7. Don't destroy the press.
8. Don't run leaders out of town and ignore agreements made with Government leaders... Joseph is ultimately more to blame for Missouri than Boggs. He wouldn't have been though if he had stayed in Kirtland and faced the Fanny inquiry.
Doing better than Joseph Smith Jr. is easy. It involves a simple temple recommend question about being honest in your dealings with other people. If you couldn't do better than Joseph you shouldn't attend the temple.
🤔🤷
Joseph's enemies thank you for believing their bearing of false testimony.
The Brethren need to be Mirandized -- remaining silent would be better than what they are doing. I just don't know how they think telling the young people there are a lot of problems with Church history but they should just ignore it is helping them.
No doubt!! LMAO!!
6:00 ".... stare down compelling reasons to doubt, and choose to believe." What a strange dichotomy this statement puts believers in.
Very true.
And why not just switch the words '"doubt" and "believe" ? i.e.
Stare down compelling reasons to believe and choose to doubt!
Using his "reasoning" here, we could defend absolutely any religious or political views, and non belief too. It's just a way of not examining your own beliefs.
As a Mormon it seems McKay has not considered that non Mormons could use this way of defence also.
1:07 WOW!!! It's nice to have a senior LDS Leader admit to soooooo much error by Church Leaders.
💞
Running two narratives is confusing and "confusion is of the devil".
Elder Kyle Mackay was introduced by Henry B Eyring's (who is alos Henry B Eyring) son before giving the talk. This reminds of of my honeymoon 18 years ago in Tokyo when we attended a stake conference there on a Sunday. When Henry B Eyring's son was speaking (he was serving as a mission president somewhere in Japan) , I was amazed by how identical they were to each other (they were just like twins). It was not just the appearance. The son's voice, tone, facial expression, gestures... were simply the copy of his father. I joked to my wife that if President Eyring wanted to skip the First Presidency meeting, he could send his son to attend it and Hinkely and Monson propably couldn't tell. It was really possible at that time when Eyring looked much younger than he is now.
Thanks!
Oh man - Peter preach!! You’re amazing.
This discussion reminded me of my favorite quote concerning the subject of History.
"History is a set of lies agreed upon."
Napoleon Bonaparte
I love you Britvengers; this is a wonderful break-down of why his method is NOT the way to help faithful members to draw comfort from the surety that the religion offers but does not deliver. It really is the plan of Satan as taught to me so many years ago. I too have noticed how much of a come-back Satan has made in talks, but what I hear is 'not so much' in the endowment at the temple. I guess there are more people listening to these talks - captive audiences, than those attending the temple anyhow.
I remember your " I am an ex Mormon upload. "
Hope the family have adjusted well to leaving the church.
In an ideal world, yes, a historian's role is to obtain and compile the most complete and factual record of an event or events as possible, without regard to what the conclusions are. In practice, of course, it often depends on who is employing the historian and why (not to mention any personal agendas, opinions or fears that shape the historian's efforts and findings). This is reflected in the way the term "court historian" (referring to the royal historian) is used to refer to a person whose job it is to shape (and even fabricate) a history that reflects positively on the royalty or, in other contexts, a history that serves the institutions that the "historian" is aligned with. It is also the case that good lawyers definitely should be as fully aware of the complete truth as possible that are relevant to any case they are involved in, in order to advocate effectively for their client. Any lawyer who willfully avoids learning inconvenient truths is a lawyer who is vulnerable to being blind-sided by facts presented by the opposing side. So, ideally, both the lawyer and historian should be dedicated to discovering unvarnished and complete truth. The only question is determining if and when either of them is in advocacy mode when they are making a presentation to you, or whether they are acting as a disinterested and objective presenter. McKay is clearly in advocacy mode, so there's no reason for objectively minded people to take him seriously. The fact that he is a lawyer by training may make him feel less guilty or troubled when presenting a one-sided, slanted and distorted view of things to the extent that he views himself as an advocate.
Excellent comment. I don't disagree with the opinions of this group that ideally historians should research and then form and share their own conclusions, but realistically the questions being asked of history are always going to be biased and as you say, if a historian is hired to seek out certain answers then that's what they'll find.
Super thrilled to hear Peter's commentary on Kyle McKay using Jane Manning James story. As a historian, Kyle retelling of Jane Manning James story should have included how she was mistreated in the church. Now Kyle wants to add his testimony with Jane's with comfort and convenience. I wonder if Kyle would have endured similar treatment and remained faithful if he were in Jane's shoes. He can reference Jane's story now without acknowledging the trauma she was subjected to at the hands of Mormon church leaders, including being sealed in servitude for all eternity to the Smith family.
Great rants from Mr Bleakley.
Jacob Hess
Brad Wilcox
David Glen Hatch
Kyle McKay
Who next will be added to the list of those giving bizarre and cringeable talks defending Mormonism?
Jane, you mentioned how the young adult age group is so vulnerable.. How about those, who were preached to from birth, as in the kids of BYU professors, like myself. We were quoting scriptures at the dinner table before the blessing on the food. My whole vocabulary and way of thinking was rooted in the dogma. Every thought that ever entered my head was in some way linked to Mormon thinking.
The Mormon history department and public relations department are the same department😂
Even the beloved Nephi didn’t fully believe the direction his father Lehi received and prayed about it until he received confirmation himself.
I can’t believe they no longer promote people getting their own confirmation and testimonies through prayer. I’m so glad I left.
49:00 not errorless men. At least the Lord could provide one honest man or a few.
Exactly!
33:40 The 1832 First Version of The First Vision, handwritten by Joseph Smith, is completely factual since it exists and we have the actual published image. That completely blows out of the water the LATER Versions which conflict with it. The Devil did not do it. The Devil did not tell Joseph to modify The Versions, over time...... OR DID HE???
24:20 Sticking to LDS Church.... HOW COULD A JESUS DIRECTED RESTORATION OF HIS GOSPEL, NOT GO 100% AOK??? How could The Church every make a mistake? Prophets who mislead? Leaders who sin?? This is not Jesus's first time at this...but the claimed "Restoration" should be a flawless process AND HAVE REACHED the 8 billion people on the Earth, rather than the 1/1000 it has.
The Church rebranding was ridiculous and the error underscored by the fact that they couldn't put "The" on the front of the domain because it is owned by an offshoot.
This is part of the classic double-standard in the church, though. They would never, ever want those like JW's to treat Mormon presentations, claims, and evidence with the same kind of disregard and instead stand firmly upon their own beliefs no matter what. They want other people to investigate compelling evidence, and consider it the noble and right thing to do, just not if their own people do it. The reasons for that double-standard being necessary are very important.
so his point is "you wouldn't be able to tell if Satan was the church leader" and he's trying to tell them they shouldn't be worried? I'd be worried and I'm not even a christian 😄👍
Neither are Mormons.
@@patricianewhart3576 you're somehow missing the point just so you can express your disdain for them not being christians which is a wonderful example for the holy passive-aggressive christian attitude 😄
who cares ? they're also no Muslims making their religion not less real 😁
50:50 Excellently said Nemo.
48:58 you’re 100% right Ms Jane, our queer kiddo only felt safe enough to disclose their suicidal feelings from church-delivered messages after we had decided that we were out
I just watched this. Just so bums me out. I’m a 63 year old widow of 33 years. Lifetime member of the church. 3 months ago the house I was living in was to be torn down so they kicked me out. Later to find it that that was a lie. The owners, my stake president, wanted me out to rebuild to make more money on the house. I had no where to go. Was November. Cold. I live in Utah. I had to live in my car. Rent is too much here. I called my bishop. He wouldn’t talk to me. My RS pres. Called me and told me to go to the local homeless shelter. I was devastated. In this 2 months in my car with my dog I did a lot of thinking. And wondered if one day Jesus popped into the local temple for a visit and the leaders were there…. Saying, “ Look look at this $20,000 chair we bought for you to sit in. Under this $50,000 chandelier. Aren’t you pleased”?! I would think Jesus would choose not to sit and look them in the eye and ask…. “Where is my daughter, D, is she warm? Is she safe? Do you know where she is”? That’s when I began to question them.
Liar.
In seconds into the first clip, and immediately distracted by the electronic reverb they add to his voice to put the standard authoritative LDS sound into the talk. Reproduce the sound that came from the tabernacle because an important GA type talk just ain’t that without the reverb
Ooohhh interesting observation!! I definitely wouldn’t put it past them to intentionally engineer that..
Parley P Pratt left the church briefly and publicly criticized Joseph Smith in 1837 because the Kirkland Safety society was repossessing his house because he had been on a mission and then his wife died and he was behind on payments of the property he had purchased at an inflated price from Joseph Smith. Letter reprinted in multiple pamphlets at the time and also in Joseph Smith Papers.
Lucky for poor dumb Parley... If he would of done it under Brigham he would of been executed... And the idiot actually came back to this abomination!!
Everyone who sees this will feel that little bit dumber..... 😆🤣🤣🤣...... wow, to get up there and treat everyone like they're idiots..... unbelievable!!
I hope to be the person who helps sow doubt in others.
And there is still an exclusionary priesthood ban on women!!
I believe the higher up in the church you get the less you believe the church. As common members you’re taught by parents, also common members to believe the scriptures and the church leaders. As you get higher up you see more of what’s hidden and by the time you reach the upper level of the church your belief is gone. At this point you’re in on the grift. And if you are still a believer you are mentally ill because a sane person can’t believe that the prophet actually talks to god.
I’m a former member who stepped away years ago.
Not to mention the nepotism for people who have vested financial, familial and career interests in professing their “belief”
The higher up they go, the greater & higher up their stipend goes. The root of all evil.
if rusty nelson is a true prophet, how come he got it all wrong about the alleged COVID 'Vaccine" back in early 2021????
Could you include links to these people's socials in the bio or a pinned comment?
I was really interested in that Jane Manning bit around 1:31:00 and I want to look up Peter.
Jane Manning was sealed to Joseph Smith 'as a servant'
46:06 I feel this exactly too Ruth ❤😢
We make a Choice We make a mistake when we don't learn from the outcome of the Choice. Especially when the outcome was a Positive one.
There’s a rule scientists follow that I love and promote.
“If you are provided evidence that support your prior beliefs, look at it again, and be sceptical. If you are provided evidence against your prior beliefs, be open minded and investigate and explore.”
Evidence and proof are not the same, evidence doesn’t always prove which is why scientists look for more evidence for their hypothesis or theory until there’s enough evidence to prove. As soon as people let go of scepticism, they are walking into dangerous territory.
Talking about clinicians, clinicians are entering dangerous territory today with CRISPR or gene editing, they don’t seem very sceptical about eliminating genetic diversity and that scientists still know so little out of what there is to know about genetics. Scientists are in the process of moving from molecular biology into developmental biology, they’re entering a minefield.
If Satan is the source of doubts, then what does that tell investigators? The growth of the religion depends upon people in other religions having doubts and seeking answers their faith can't seem to answer. He's actually creating greater cognitive dissonance especially for young people who may be preparing to serve a mission and answer the questions of people from other religions. 🤦
Nemo.
You need to invite Kyle to your excellent podcast and challenge his points ON AIR.
There seem to be many problematic issues within this Church. As with any denomination or organisation for that matter misdeeds or worse seem to be covered up as the initial response by the relevant authorities. All demoninations seem to be guilty of this including Saint Peters Church.
Yes! A bonfire would be proper ❤
37:00 minutes. Bingo Ruth! Well said.
43:40
Total honesty 😅
If someone was talking to me in that tone I’d zone out and not listen to anything they have to say. He sounds so angry, demanding, and condescending
A desperate address by a desperate organization.
People don't doubt the truthfulness they doubt the lies
Faith per se has never been a virtue. The church just constantly talks about it as though it is, without ever explaining why "having faith" is in and of itself a good thing. Literally every wacky cult that has ever existed has only been successful to the extent that it convinced people to have "faith" in it. Certainty and knowledge is always superior to faith. Faith is a form of desperation...something that people default to in circumstances where it is not possible to have certainty and knowledge. If one is confronted with "compelling reasons to doubt" one's faith, choosing to ignore such reasons is the height of foolishness.
What kind of "historian" says that The Truth is NOT the answer to questions about The Past???????
@Randy G AMEN. How could ANY Christian Church have any dirty laundry???
According to McKay 'Answers are not the solution.' It is obvious that McKay does not understand that Joseph Smith sought answers to questions by asking God. In the index of The Book of Mormon 1981 edition, page 165 one will see the verb INQUIRE ( see ASK; PRAY; QUESTION;SEEK ). McKay needs to study essential LDS source material, ie, The Book of Mormon and The Doctrine & Covenants.
I don't mind lawyers as arguers, if they follow the same model that law requires. There needs to be an opposition that argued against them, and a judge to ensure everyone plays by the rules so the jury can decide without impediment
Have you ever been in court? Judges vary wildly. There are some truly terrible ones. And no semblance of impartiality, fairness, or the slightest whiff of common sense or intelligence. Or rules.
Oh, I totally agree that there is some serious change to the legal system that needs happening, but the point I want to make is that, in theory there are mechanisms in place to fairly try someone. In the church setting however, there are deliberate and overpowering attempts to prevent a fair "trial".
@Nate Nelson yep, totally agree with that.
abetter analogy would be you finding out the lawyer you hired to defend your gay child is a mormon GA.
Great comment, zinger!
I really love how you break this down! I will give credit where it's due though, this is...really effective propaganda. But the truth will out!
It is, but you’re right, the truth will prevail
God I love ❤️ her Scottish accent.
I was always told that the only sin Joseph Smith was guilty of was levity. Now that all the real dirt has come out against him, I find it highly suspicious that the leaders don't even deny it. They look like complete fools grasping at straws to cover up for this man who they claim is second only to Jesus when it comes to personal righteousness. Unbelievable!!!
The Church restored by Joseph Smith is not on the earth. BY was an imposter, as Joseph said.
Joe the treasure diggin magic believin pedophile restored what??
1st comment! haha thanks for the amazing video!
Our pleasure!
They can make mistakes, but they have to own up to them and correct the mistake. If they are being guided by God, then they should be making less mistakes than the rest of us.
Research D&C 132 and when it was added in. Why was the original D&C 101 taken out?
his talk was pretty awesome, tbh
Money is not sacred. Donations are a business adventure
Nothing. I get zero, zilch, none, spirit from that speaker or any of them. I used to love President Uchtdorf as he actually just seemed to understand people but this new rhetoric of do as I say and shut off your actual critical brain (God given, the Glory of God is Intelligence and all that...) it just seems something is very wrong here and I'm so glad people are trusting their instincts
Also don't ever question the errors of leaders but definitely punish and shame any error of the regular members as this free pass doesn't apply to them 🤔
themormon church is beginning to crash!!!
Don’t disagree with a lot of your sentiment but the comparison of the choice of a surgeon to choice of religious belief is a false equivalency and produces a straw man argument. The choice of a surgeon as you framed it in your discussion, is based on objective criteria in making a rational material decision while faith based decisions entertain input and “evidence,” that may be transcendental in nature. Another way of looking at this is that a scientist does not have the tools to defeat a religionist and vice versa. An honest dialogue between them needs to stick to pointing out the other’s inconsistency with that others system of belief or inquiry. The most powerful criticism of the Church is based on points where leaders are easily demonstrated to be hypocritical.
In an historical context, no church leader has ever been a theologian or has been trained in theology. Also, Mormonism doesn't have a well defined theology to begin with, so they are having to make it up on the go. I believe, not to defend them, that this has made them a bit defensive in their actions. On top of this, the leadership is very well educated and have been very successful in their personal and business lives. For this reason they have come to believe, unconsciously in some cases, that they are better than the rest of us and they strike out at those who would then question them or point out errors, issues, etc. that would make them look bad. I'm not defending them. They need to get over themselves, come back down to earth where the rest of us live and work together with and for us.
1:01:17 Oh shoot! Nemo, you’ve got to stop buying what the church claims about Joseph and read the actual writings and publications of Joseph, Hyrum, and Emma themselves!🙏🏼 The church’s official church history still used today is the history written by BRIGHAM which he undertook immediately following the convenient deaths of the 3 smith brothers. Seriously, I hope you’ll research it because it is even more compelling than the hearsay quotes and “affidavits” trying to paint Joseph as a polygamist and Emma as a psycho years after Joseph and Hyrum were dead and unable to defend themselves. Have Michelle Stone or Rob Fotheringham come on your awesome show!👏🏼 Watch their videos to see documentation!
Love your videos!
Pyp is in the house
"There will always be reasons to doubt..." wrong things
Nemo- are you still a member?
How do you know if they are not speaking for God...
The historian is a lawyer. Of course.
I was here at the devotional! I thought it was pretty good.
Really, thanks for sharing! What did you enjoy about it?
TRUTH IS NOT A SOLUTION...OR IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING???
Actually Mr. McKay is correct.
Is there anything True about the corpus of the Mormon theological claims? What is it about the cultural collective that you want to keep going? Why not just become C of E
Can you answer the question of why money is all of a sudden your real religion?
I agree with the church on this one. Trans people should not enter into a private group and force the institution to change.
Oops! You guys don’t know the history very well! Study up Nemo. You have work to do as do the other people on this video. Check out Rob Fotheringham. He will give you a good start to finding the truth of the restoration and what actually happened.
Yes, and 132 Problems and Hemlock Knots.
"Answers are not the solution. "
No. That is something a dissembler would say. Stop with gymnastics already! Stop lying for the Lord. Clear answers actually ARE the solution. Speak the truth.
Curious how many exmo's start out with Umm Joseph married how many? He translated the Book of Abraham how? 14 weeks later and a CES letter and 2 starbuck latte's later, they no longer believe Jesus is the Christ. /golf clap to Luci boy.