An Inside Look at LDS Church Operations - Scott Dyer of Rameumptom Ruminations | Ep.1702
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- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2024
- Today we get to meet Special Guest Scott Dyer from Rameumptom Ruminations, a podcast centered on Mormon theology & interpretations of scripture through the lens of philosophy, literature and art under the Mormon Discussions Podcasts umbrella.
John and Scott discuss Brian Harris, a recent guest on Rameumptom Ruminations who was an employee at church headquarters in the correlation department. Brian offers us a chance to pull back the curtain and learn a little bit more about what goes on behind the scenes. How does the church gather and use data from its members? How far up the chain does that data go? What goes into the creation, revising, or scrapping of church programs?
Chapters:
00:00:00 Introductions
00:11:00 Brian Harris Interview Overview
00:13:00 Brian introduces his work within the church correlation department
00:23:00 All programs required the stamp of approval from the survey group
00:28:30 What interactions did the survey group have with general authorities?
00:40:00 How are survey candidates chosen?
00:50:00 Why does the church need research?
01:02:00 What information does church headquarters keep in individual attendance records?
01:07:15 What do we know about the results of releasing the Gospel Topics Essays?
01:41:40 What is church segmentation? What are the “products” the church “sells”
02:07:10 What role did surveys play in some of the recent changes to the LDS church? 02:17:00 How aware is the church that their stance on sexuality differs from leading psychology?
02:28:00 Surveys on the activity on missionary devices & self-reported pornography use
02:42:00 How did Millenials respond to survey questions around LGBTQ+ issues
02:52:00 Why is the church interested in John Dehlin and other vocal dissenters?
03:00:15 What did the church want to know from members about John Dehlin and Kate Kelly?
03:09:30 Scott’s favorite RR episodes
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Mormon Stories Podcast is the longest-running and most successful podcast in Mormonism - hosted by Dr. John Dehlin. At Mormon Stories we explore, celebrate, and challenge Mormon culture through in-depth stories told by members and former members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We also occasionally interview scholars, authors, LDS apologists, and other professionals. Our overall mission is to: 1) Facilitate informed consent amongst LDS Church members, investigators, and non-members regarding Mormon history, doctrine, and theology, 2) Support Mormons (and members of other high-demand religions) who are experiencing a religious faith crisis, and 3) Promote healing, growth and community for those who choose to leave the LDS Church or other high demand religions.
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Back in 2017, our ward in MT was corralled into the Relief Society room during Sunday School and we were handed a 45 min. survey to fill out. I sat there in total disbelief. I couldn't believe the questions, mostly having to do with the 3 hour block and if we thought it was too long. I can't even describe how this made me feel. I knew right in that room, the church was not receiving revelation. I brought my empty survey to the front of the room, pushed by a priesthood leader standing in the doorway, and left. I went home and started researching, beginning with the church essays. It didn't take long before I resigned. By the way, it wasn't long after that the church changed it's 3 hour block time! Thanks for this validation.
Wow, cool story! Any other ward members follow your brave example?
@@DeathValleyDazed I sat there for about 5 minutes, after we were given instructions and looked through survey and then looked around the room to see if anyone else was upset. All other (50 plus) obedient members, including my husband, were busy filling it out. My conscience couldn't take it and I left. Later that day, I argued with my husband about it. He didn't see the big deal I was making, my hek... nobody else seemed to have a problem with it. I left the church, he stayed. I was born and raised in the covenant, married in the temple, temple recommend holder, and was our ward organist and music chairperson. I would consider myself hard-core Mormon. I thank God the church decided to use MT members to do that survey. It woke me up! The essays just flamed the fire started that day.
@@rdesilva4783 You’re an example of how LDS is rapidly losing its best and brightest. Thanks for sharing your story.
@@rdesilva4783 the same impression or feeling you felt there I felt the same way but it was during the 1st time I enter the endowment ceremony at the Mormon temple, I just felt so weird , and never went back in there again.
All of the questions on this survey were TIME related. How much time do you spend in your calling a week? How much time do you spend in scripture study a day? Do you think the 3 hour block interferes with family time?
I’m a never-Mormon, non-practicing raised Catholic millennial woman, & have the privilege of watching this channel for pure content. God damn if the takeaways aren’t SO valuable & worthwhile. John & team, 1) your production value helps me engage with other content creators & scholars i would normally skip past 2) the age diversity of your guests is SUCH a needed example in how to authentically engage with professionals older & younger than your current age & 3) the examination of high control groups are more important to examine than ever. Please keep these 3 points up - you’ve got an incredible presence here on RUclips! Thanks for the hard work
Amen. John is doing the dirty work the church won’t do and FINALLY giving members a voice
@@kkeiter Giving ex-Mormons a voce too.
Do us all a favor...express yourself without denigrating or swearing and you won't be viewed as a douchebag.
Well said
I’m in the same boat! Never mo, non practicing, millennial and it’s SO valuable!!
I think the tipping point was the pandemic itself. At least for me and my wife (elder millennials) it was just enough separation from the demands of our callings and other socialization requirements to have some true critical thinking and independent thoughts
God works in mysterious ways; even though it was through the covid lockdown.
Exactly this for my family also, although we are now the black sheep (my brother is our Bishop & my father in law on the stake pres). Lockdown showed that church is really about the social aspect. And also that if revelation existed why were they not prepared for church in lockdown? Some may say come follow me, which I was teaching, was evidence of this but there was zero consistent way for church to continue. I remember being on a teams call for ward council & was shocked the church didn't have an enterprise license for Zoom! There was no plan set up, or ever was. One ward did things different to another.
Agreed. I know a lot of people left during that period
I left I jumped 56 feet from a bridge because of LDS family services. I was not working and my neurologist told me to read everything. I was on SSI and not working so I just read everything. I learned that Joe Smith was a pedophile adulterer polygamist treasure digger fraudster and arsonist. That he copied the View of the Hebrews, he copied Norris Stearns First vision poem. Then my ex divorced me because she said I would never work for her. But I met a nevermo on line from Peru. My Spanish came back better when I was in the coma for 2 months. Because the nurse's who stayed with me watched Latin TV so it was on 24 hours a day. But I wanted to keep my Spanish up. We became great friends. After 3 years of talking I asked if I could come visit so I went for Valentine's and her birthday. We just hit it off I have been back 3 more times and we got engaged last October. We are getting married this July.
I remember getting a church survey. I told them to stop making the members pay them so much money. That was the last survey I got.
😂 I’m sorry but that’s too funny! I don’t disagree.
My parents are currently on a mission and I think it’s stupid they have spent their entire lives paying tithing and now they have to pay to be on a mission where they are out sometimes 10+ hours a day because they are in South Dakota so driving is much of their day. But besides paying the church for their mission they still have to pay for food and gas and any issues with the car because they took their own. I really wonder how much they are paying to be out there.
@@racheld7528And not converting anyone with an internet connection and 2 brain cells to rub together.
You're too powerful. You have girl power and speak your mind. (They can't handle stuff like that very well) You are also threatening they're "right" to take lots of peoples $$$!
@@mattkaustickomments So true! My dad has come up with some line he tells people, especially ones like me that have chosen for whatever reason, to walk away. He tells them “that’s just an excuse, the church is true and it wouldn’t hurt if it hadn’t meant something to you.” 🤦🏼♀️
I really feel bad for those people. My dad is a business man and spends a lot of time making sales pitches. So that’s all this is. He is driving around and finding whatever pitch works best on the people he interacts with. It’s sad.
That just drives home the truth about what the Morman Church is truly about.... MAKING MONEY!!!
Oh this resonates with me sooo much about the depression. Was a TBM for 56 yrs (UGH!), including 7 yrs as a temple worker. BEST thing that happened to me was Rusty's attitude of entitledment, superiority, elitestism, etc esp at 2019 GC. I started questioning and did heavy investigation of the MO church history AND present day for 20 mos. Nov 30, 2021 I had my resignation letter in the my car to mail and was in a car accident that totaled my car. Yet I was joyful, happy and just light feeling all day and ever since then! As the tow truck was removing my car I walked from the crash site, State St Orem in front of the library) to the post office close by. Mailed my letter and called a family member for a ride home. Even my daughter-in-law mentioned to me later in the day how happy and calm I was to have totaled my car that morning. Thanks John and Scott ! 🥰
I felt lie I was slow to find the truth but the joy I felt to resign was as joyful as your except I didn't total my car. I'm responding to you because I lived in Orem as a youth loved there but people are clique filled. I graduated from MT view in 81 way to go go I was age 56 too now 60 keep up
I had my car accident in 2000 in front of the Dairy Queen there. The very long recovery really made me think hard about my life and marriage which was abusive and being in the church. That accident for me made me focus on a new and better life which I now have with a much better man and no religion but believing the Golden Rule!
“Where your data is, there your heart is also.” - great line from John
John Dehlin has the knack to hit the nail on the head as the sure sign of a grip on Mormonism.
I am an active member with a PhD in social sciences; there is no conflict between research and revelation…or has John forgotten we’ve been taught to study it out then pray about it. Revelation doesn’t occur in a vacuum any more than Creation taking place ex-nihilo. Suggests John has a superficial grasp on the nature of revelation and inspiration.
@@got_style Thanks for adding academic comment. Please supply your analysis of another LDS and recent statistical publication: jmssa.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Stewart2022.pdf
@@DeathValleyDazed Will do
@@got_style FYI I saw your comment over at my YT channel and also responded there. At least one of your replies has appeared here at Mormon Stories.
Absolutely incredible podcast John and Gerardo! Scott is a colleague of mine in the Mormon Discussion Inc umbrella and is a fantastic Podcaster. I am honored to be associated with such a great guy
This is a favorite podcast of mine! Scott's voice is calm, and I am enthralled with his voice, and love his content! ♥️😎
You’re sweet Cindi. Thanks for the compliment.
You pretty much nailed it John. Before COVID there was definitely a fear of looking into the truth claims for people like me. Then a friend who knew I was ready told me about your podcast. I’ve been a listener and supporter since. I share with people who I know are ready and I’m super grateful for the way that you’ve helped me unravel the veil. Amazing guest and interview. Thanks.
How did Covid change your mind?
I didn’t change my mind, I had struggled with cognitive dissonance for years but was conditioned to not study things that didn’t paint the church in a positive light. I was dying inside. With COVID and church cancelled, I used the time to really think about things that didn’t make sense. At first very painful but I’m in a much better place now.
I mentioned John's name to some Church friends I have. One of them listened and said APOSTACY, HERESY, and told me I'd go to Outer Darkness if I kept listening. 2 others are now regular listeners/viewers and they are still in the Church but they, like me, are waiting to see if/when the Church will change. It has changed a lot over the last 45 years. When Pres. Monson said no blessing of children of gays and lesbians unless they disowned their parents, now that's changed and that's in like 6 years. Some of us try to educate our fellow ward members. People need to think. I go to Church because I believe in the original Church and teachings, I am not so much a believer in a corporation.
I’ve been listening to Rameumpton Ruminations for years. Scott is so bright and articulate and has really put a voice to so many things I’ve been ruminating on myself.
The idea that truth isn't the most important thing to the church makes it untrustworthy...
My grandmother was the granddaughter of one of the presidents. She knew him well and travelled with him as his piano accompanist. She never saw him as a spiritual man but saw him as a business leader. She left the church years later after she got married.
I've never been Mormon. I am a former primary (elementary, I think) school teacher in New Zealand. I have a son on the Autism spectrum who needs a lot of help so I am unable to work. I became a teacher because I love to learn. I found MSP during covid. I've always had an interest in religion so this podcast serves both functions. I loved this session. It was so interesting. My favourite ones are the ones with Margi co-hosting. But this was a breath of fresh air.
God bless you and your son. I’m non-Mormon, too, but my aunt is reformed Mormon. Very interesting stuff.
by no means base your opinion about "mormons" based on this pod cast...they are obviously biased... there is so much good that can come from listening to or following most of the religion and its beliefs...are there bad apples? thats like asking do politicians lie? i havent followed the religion in 30 years but the core principles are there family community god. id suggest reaching out to the missionaries where you live if nothing else you will probably end up with a free book
@@chadoverson153 the central principal is that man can be like the Most High, if he does good enough works and/or is high-ranking enough to get the Second Anointing (the Get out of Hell, Free card). That’s not wholesome or good, but leads to avarice and destruction.
Very cool you would take the time to learn about the church. To those saying MS is biased, you find a much more accurate telling of the history and experience here than you will in the church or from the missionaries. I can say that because I was a missionary and we didn’t even know the negative side much less be able to teach it. I spent 20 years+ in the church. Yes, there is good, but there is no good that is unique to the church except that they’ve built strong youth programs and service opportunity. That’s it.
@@benjamingardea4511 agree6! You'll notice I didn't reply to the 'biased' comment. I have no time for that.
They are losing 63-year old geezers too. After a lifetime of serving and believing. I have been wondering for the last couple of years if the leadership of the church are really believers. This definitely makes it feel like there are at least some of them who are not. I have to admit that I am embarrassed (at some level) that it took me so long to get to this point. I have to wonder if they were looking at TBMs like me and laughed at us and marveled at how we keep the faith despite all the evidence that there were many fundamental aspects of the faith that were so questionable. They have to know they are not receiving revelation. I knew of many of these issues, but just ignored them because I felt so strongly about my personal conversion.
Just talked with a guy I play basketball with. He is a very active member. He could not believe that Joseph used a rock in a hat to get the Book of Mormon. 35 years old and he had never heard of it.
Don’t feel embarrassed. Accurate history has been very well removed from discussion
Whats amazing about the bulk of the Gospel Topics Essays is the FACT that the things the church has always deemed "Anti-mormon" is now just a few, sometimes hard to find, clicks away on their own website.
my grandpa is devout and also a scientist he doesnt care if it's not true because he found happiness and community in the church
@@Eternalsunshinejewelry if the church said "we're a community that brings joy and happiness" instead of "we're the only true church in the world and give us 10% of your income to see God someday" this podcast probably wouldn't even exist.
@@Eternalsunshinejewelry that is good he’s found peace and happiness in the community of the Church.
I've watched so many of your episodes. I'm generally drawn to the ones where people are telling their story, not as much the factual presentations. Even still, this episode has to be one of my all time favorites. It was fascinating. Thank you
I love that this is a discussion of logical parts of Mormonism. From a logical perspective, I find it fascinating how the Mormon church deliberately and systemically discourages empathy & its meaning.
I had already listened to the interviews on Rameumpton Ruminations but really valued the exposure and analysis you added to these really interesting glimpses into the driving machinery inside the church. Scott has a great voice, hope he comes back on your show again soon.
Agree and hope Mormon Stories devotes an episode to “Insider View Of Mormon Welfare Services.”
I want to hear Scott's full Mormon story!!
Dude is articulate! I’m going to watch all his stuff…
Thanks for the compliment.
Love Scott’s podcast!! He is amazing and what a voice!!! So relaxing to listen to and I always come away with inspiration and insights ❤️
Loved this discussion. I had already listened to this series on Rameumptom Ruminations but I enjoyed listening again and hearing Scott’s thoughts as well as John and Gerardo.
Not a waste of time. I listened to the whole thing. Maybe one day I will have the financial ability support you guys. Thank you.
I’m proud to be in the 5% group! I no longer believe any church is “true”. I know what brings me spirituality and I seek that. The church makes me feel like I have to follow a checklist to get back to God. Where is the love? The kind of love that Jesus taught? I’m done answering questions to men to “prove” I am a worthy person. I still love many things the church has taught me. I still love my bishop and most of the members. But I’m done with being indoctrinated with teachings that I know are not true.
I agree with you! 100%
You couldn't have expressed it better. I'm where you are.
Agree with you, 💟 I'm there to:)
Beautifully said! These modern day churches are just big organizations full of people on power trips who don’t follow the true teachings of Jesus or God. It makes me sick
So baptism by authority isn't essential??So partaking of water and wine to remember Christ is not essential??So Priesthood authority is not essential???So Temples are not essential even though they are in the Bible and the Temple in Jerusalem is an integral part of Christ's return???So the 10 Commandments aren't necessary to follow?There is a checklist mate Some just don't want to follow it
Oh I love the idea for a TV series of the life of Joseph Smith! So hard for active Mormons to NOT watch something like that! The truth ALWAYS surfaces......
Yes and backed throughout by showing the related excerpts from the LDS essays.
Advertise it as a fictional comedy, based on real events.
Loved the additional commentary and context. It gives me the ability to be able to understand it more critically so I can have more informed conversations with my family. Thank you for all y’all do!
Fascinating podcast. I am reminded of a Canadian Broadcasting Corporation "Fifth Estate" episode on the Canadian arm of the LDS church giving hundreds of millions to BYU, essentially church money laundering. This is a recent episode.
Talking about influencers becoming part of high level leadership, Elder Corbitt spoke at the Fall General Conference about activism is Satanic. He is a lawyer from a PR oriented firm. Sigh.
My mother worked in the correlation department with Brian. I wanted to add that they did research in Europe and South America when she was working and doing research for the LDS church. Albeit, once or twice a year. Mom is pretty nuanced now, and last we talked she hated the organization of the church. Working there is pretty rough on minds apt to think critically about their experiences.
They should probably hire non LDS outsiders rather than lose more intelligent members.
It is like Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984, deciding what goes down the memory hole. He knew too much about Big Brother.
I love listening to Rameumpton Ruminations. I can't wait for this one...
Thanks Guys! By far, my most favorite podcast of inside the Mormon Headquarters.
As native of Utah, I would be much more interested in hearing about the churches "actual" business dealings. How many companies hiding behind the church,how much land they have claimed and it's value,etc. Good Luck.😁
That's my interest too ? Decades ago in Boise Valley I understood one of the biggest players on the stock market were something called the 'Reed Group' but really was the church.
Episode 1732 talks about the companies and stocks after the SEC scandal. ruclips.net/user/liveqr8qobSyUIY?feature=share
I remember as a kid i honestly thought that the prophet and apostles sat in their office with Jesus and just chatted all day long. I honestly did. I also heard that Jesus literally walks the halls of the temples. Especially the Salt Lake City temple. Maybe only the SLC one actually. I also thought that all personal revelation was as clearly verbal as you’re speaking right now. Which is why I always wondered as a kid why i never got those experiences. I would hear my family members talk about God telling them this, the Holy Spirit whispering in a still, small voice. I was expecting an actual voice. So when i never heard one i thought something was wrong with me. This was little kid age. Possibly even before baptism. But it lasted up through my teenage years. I tried to hard to make it happen that i think i psyched myself out into having my “confirmation” of the church being true, even though i never doubted the church, only doubted myself, at EFY after the “you’re a horrible sinner” fireside by John Bytheway. I went back to my dorm and me and a girl from my ward sat in our room and just prayed and cried and prayed until i was convinced i physically felt Jesus wrap his arms around me and that i took as getting my confirmation. Though it still felt forced and i basically manifested it myself by how hard i was wanting it. And looking back, I’ve just always been fascinated by magic, the supernatural, etc. Anything that was beyond this plain boring world we see everyday. I viewed revelation and such that same way. I wanted to have the Holy Ghost whisper to me the same way i wanted the planchette to move on the ouija board. I just want there to be something more. Now as an atheist, I feel i want it even more. Back then i at least believed there was something more that other people experienced, even if I didn’t. Now, with that gone, the likelihood i see of anything like that is so slim to none. I hope I’m wrong. But once again, if i am, whatever is out there, COME SHOW ME THEN!!! Whatever it may be. But nothing has. So atheist i stay. 1:49:38
Thanks Scott for providing a forum that feels safe for those of us who are stuck between opposing opinion
No idea how I landed on this video but I’m here for it. I’m an active member of the Church. Only made it in about an hour. Really interesting discussion, I disagree with a lot of their reasoning but these three guys seem genuine in seeking truth and promoting good. Love it.
We’re all in this together. (Aka figuring out life)
I’m a subscriber to both podcasts, and I’m thrilled that this will shine more light on Scott and his awesome content! I listened to Scott’s original interviews with Brian on his podcast, and really enjoyed hearing all the commentary that the three of you discussed here.
I’ve been listening to RR for a year. I love the content but especially his voice at night. Keep up the good work 🎉
Weirdly enough, I lost my mother, father and brother in 2020 (not to Covid) and I really needed support. The foundation was ripped out from under me because of this; I used to recharge on Sundays I did not work, and it was not happening. We are not active now.
Sorry about your loss
What always strikes me is the extent to which opinion drives everything in the church. Maximum excessing over what people will think drives every action. This podcast confirms this so much more. I have seen countless examples of this locally and globally, in my own life now for decades. Appearance is everything. Problems are quickly buried under the table if their exposure will embarrass. Fear drives action, not faith, straightforwardness and courage. Sad, because there are many good things here actually, and definitely countless truly amazing Mormon people trying so hard.
Yes Karukun you re right."when the prophet speaks the thinking has been done"Sunday School Manual,1945
Being free in Christ alone is better,in a completed atonement.Romans5:6-17/2Corinthians5:17-21😊
Love this podcast. The simple lesson here, you can not defend a lie when the lie is exposed. The Church caught in the lie still insists the church is true and making their predicament worse. When you flip the church claim to the church isn't true, every question you cannot ask now has an answer.
Your comment is evidence as to why “Oh flip!” Is such a common expletive in Mormon culture. 🥴
Well said.
What lie are you referring to?
@@glennfulcher429 Pick one, any one.
What about God? The creator of the universe. He would not like this anymore than He did the golden calf. There shall not be any gods before me.
I know they did research on 2 hour church because my sisters ward/stake did it for a year. During that year they changed a bit ( trying to figure out how many weeks the 2nd hour would be yw/relief society/ym- and how many would be Sunday school. She lived in Logan. They did it for a year before the announcement- so we KNEW it was coming- my entire family was texting about it- that we all knew it was going to happen.
Utterly fascinating interview. I was called to be a stake communications coordinator for similar research purposes among members of the church. Still want to come on to discuss the current marriage crisis and sex ratio disparity of women outnumbering men in the church currently. It’s as high as 5 to 1 and the church will not release this info. Women deserve to know this information. Feel like the church is holding women hostage!! It’s hurting them in more ways than one
Damn, they're gonna have to bring polygamy back with those numbers....
This isn’t new. Women have outnumbered men - especially in Utah - for generations.
@@laraemitchell9064 Yeah and no one talks about it
LDS does not know about unconditional love and compassion. They kick out the problem child into the street with nothing. I was catholic and I became Quaker. I resigned but the priest said you are ALWAYS Catholic. I felt comfort.
Great podcast! I listened to all of these at the time but John and Gerardo’s analysis added to the greatness of Scott. Do more like this!
John I love when you were joking around at the beginning!! My favorite episodes have been the ones where you let your great sense of humor shine (for example Gerardo's interview) 😊 Don't feel like you need to apologize for joking!!
And Gerardo I've missed seeing you on episodes, it was awesome to hear so much if your thoughts and experience!! 💕
I really enjoyed listening to both the original 3 interviews and listening to you both discuss those interviews! I did switch over to listening to the interviews when you mentioned them and it was nice to have already heard them to prep for your discussion.
I would LOVE to hear about the church employee that worked in church welfare outside the US! I'm listening to the original interviews now :D Thx!
Loved this episode! Thanks for showcasing another podcaster this way.
This is fascinating. I'm working on a PhD right now and in my survey research class we had someone from meta talking about the research he does there. This sounded a lot like that conversation.
I loved this!
I had already listened to Scott’s episodes on this topic and found MS approach just as informative and interesting. Plus, it was nice to see his handsome face along with hearing his smooth radio voice!
Well done!
Never Mormon here . I’m binge watching your Mormon stories shows.
I am never Mormon. I stumbled on Mormon Stories and been binge watching for a couple of weeks.
Hahaha John sounds like you're public enemy number one inside church headquarters. Great episode, loved it.
I'm sure I'm on the list...when u question the golden idol on the temples u know it is Satan's church...even the blind man on ten commandments could see that
1:30:00 (ish) this fact that there are chill members who probably read their scriptures everyday, but won’t hate themselves if they miss a day makes me SO angry. I was all in. I ADHD (undiagnosed until last year), and I fought my brain so hard my whole life to get the habit of scripture study. I did daily trackers. I put my scriptures on my pillow. I promised myself I would read the first time I thought of it, no matter how inconvenient. I would go months without reading and then a day or a few weeks with reading. On my mission, I struggled so hard to keep my mind on the page.
I was the person that everyone knew was super into the church. When I told my mom that I was learning to chill out and forgive myself for not reading every day, she got this panicked look and gently reminded me how crucial scripture study is. I just assumed it was this hard for everyone, but they could foo it and I couldn't.
And there are people who read scriptures CASUALLY, and DAILY?? And they don't care if they miss?? And I thought I was hurting my relationship with God by trying and failing so hard?
Oh, knew that God knew it was hard for me. I knew that he understood the struggle. I knew that he only asked that I keep trying. But I should never have felt that I had to do it at all. Continuing to try and fail was exhausting and made my inner critic worse. I mean, reading the scriptures was often good for me, but I could still have read it sometimes and not others, like how I sometimes get into sewing or drawing. Other times, I could focus on service or prayer or my talents. Having to do everything all the time is a high demand religion.
It’s crazy how that was so real for you. And now it’s not. Crazy and sad. Crazy and wrong. Wishing you happier and healthier thoughts and feelings. X
My mother's family have been members since late 1830s. I dedicated a great deal of my life, finances and learning to the LDS church. I lived with doubts for years through a mission, through every position at the ward level, believing that faith was enough.
To me there is no excuse for the leadership to hide details about history or to outright lie about it. IF these men said they were only men doing thier best to guide a church like all other leaders of other churches, I think I mighy have understood.
Now, there is nothing in Mormonism for me. They could publically beg for forgiveness and declare that under no circumstances will these things happen again and I would never ever dedicate myself to anything related to JS or his ilk.
Why haven’t I ever received one of these surveys!!!??? That would be amazing entertainment.
I know John is half joking, but does anyone else feel like he acted a little defensive and insecure about Mormon Stories? After 5 million episodes and 18 whatever years, there’s no reason to have any insecurity over Mormon Stories. Mormon Stories will always be the preeminent podcast for nuanced/ex Mormons. There’s absolutely no reason to feel threatened by other ex Mormon pods. That aside, this podcast was awesome! I love listening to Rameumpton Ruminations (as well as Mormon Stories) and I really resonate with Scott’s personal experience - depression, anxiety, mixed faith marriage. Scott’s podcasts with Kajsa Berlin-Kaufusi (#18,19) are awesome! I’d love more of these collab podcasts.
Perhaps Scott should be invited to Mormon Stories to review other of his podcasts. Love Gerardo's participation.
Great conversation! It complements well Scott's content. Glad you chose this format.
When learning about tithing in Primary, somehow funding the extensive market research didn’t come up…
Scott and I have had some good back and forths on TikTok. I brought him out of TikTok retirement at one point haha. Looking forward to listening to this one.
I'm an exmormon And I'm still dealing with the isolation your TBM friends give you, they are still waiting that I fail on everything I do and go back to the LDS church humiliated, I still prosper, but it's hard a lot of friends stop talking to. So Even myself I'm afraid their bad vibes affect my life.Cuz I believe in the positive and negative energy.
I'm sorry that you are being ostracized by your TBM friends. This happened to me too when ai left the church. They and many of my immediate family were waiting for me to fail and return. It's so disappointing and difficult to come to the realization of how conditional their love and support was. Stay strong and focus on creating a community of friends and love ones who appreciate and love you for your honesty and ability to stand on your own. You are very brave. I wish you the best of luck and all of the love and support that you deserve.
I’m sorry, but this is cult behavior. It’s designed to pressure people to stay in, using psychological tactics. Right now, the President and apostles of the LDS church are sitting on top of $100B while hemorrhaging members as people simply study the history of Joseph Smith, the founders and the insanely, continually revised BoM. Leave. Stay out. Save your soul. Jesus Christ IS real, and he can be found in the most well-preserved document in human history - the Bible.
Bro-I mean amigo-I’ve hitchhiked across America and been around the world: and I truly believe most people are good. I hold onto that & I’ve learned that that lesson feels sometimes oddly less true if you’re “in” a sample of people that isn’t a proper proportional microcosm of humanity at large. (My moment of faith-crisis regarding “most people are good” came about because I got divorced just a little before 40 years of age, and the dating pool does not accurately line up with the wider world that I explored in my teens and twenties 😅😂. I wish good, earnest, honest, people into your life, friend. My dad tried to raise me to be Mormon (he got into it after leaving Catholicism before I was born). I was literally always suspicious about that organization. The majority of humans in his church aren’t bad people. The ‘in-group’ vs the ‘not in our group’ people dynamic is a difficult thing (across all organizations of people). But even if you feel Brotherhood and kindness in your church/ward… it’s not ok to go along with what group dynamics would push you towards… don’t let social pressure cloud your thinking and questioning mind.
@@rhondacarlson2697 thanks for your kind words.
Maybe they were not real friends in the first place. No real good person would stop being friends with someone just because they left a religion. That is a sign of brainwashed and insecure people who now see you as a threat to their weak belief system. If they were grounded on true Christian principles this would not be an issue at all.
Loved the analysis and discussion about his interview.
great episode guys, absolutely fascinating to hear these snippets of interviews and your commentary/thoughts
Fascinating episode. Thank you.
Just a thought on one of the final comments about media influence and how impactful a mini series about Joseph Smith could be..
I’ve thought about this before and I’m no author or filmmaker myself but it would be great I think if someone made something like that but based it on Emma. It could portray what she saw and heard and was told. So as she is figuring out who he is, the viewer also gets to observe and judge. ..
Could be compelling and harrowing to see it all unfold from her line of site..
Emma, Mormon Enigma.
You mean when she sees him in the barn with Fanny Alger, long before he got any vision or revelation?
God will judge all the one who criticized the good religion some religion are trying their best but people are not all perfect only. God but don’t bully the person who did wrong or gossips is bad let God do it
Regarding the Church installment of tracking software on missionary devices to immediately report viewing of non-church approved material, BYU has had this function set up on all campus computers for decades. 30 years ago during legitimate research, I accessed an art site that also had some nudity on it (not pornography) on a BYU computer. A report was immediately sent to the Dean and Chair and an inquisition ensued. So, yes, the church actually functions as a "1984" big brother in surveillance of its employees' or representatives' lives. It is hard core invasion of privacy, but legally done under their religious exemptions. They own the data used and produced on machines they have paid for. Having said that, I have heard of members accessing Mormon Stories in the Chapel during a sacrament meeting using the church router in the building. Ha ha ha, don't know if they have shut this down -- probably have.
Julie Hanks’s is the reason I found the CES letter ( she talked about it in a story but she talked about it in a favorable light), and so I finally felt safe to read it because SHE said she had… and said most of it was true. Once I read it, I was done. Like in one night I was done. Out.
I used to think I knew what a prophet, seer and revelator was. For decades I really believed and even marveled that certain individuals had this god ordained mantle set upon them. Now I laugh quietly to myself and reflect to the early years of my childhood when I believed in Santa. Santa was harmless but the belief in the other is not so harmless.
I think the best thing about the Mormon church is their service! Their service to all members and non-members! I was a convert and I can see more of the testimonies are being directed towards God the Eternal Father and Jesus Christ now instead of Joseph Smith!! I have been a very spiritual independent person for a long time, even before I knew about Joseph Smith's polygamy and the CES letters; things just didn't feel right spiritually. But I still go to LDS church because the people are so good and they want to follow the example of Jesus Christ! & like someone else said once to me; all churches have their problems their issues; none of them are perfect; we have to have that Spirit within us that teaches us what's right! & that's what makes us Spiritually independent!
"The Holy Spirit" 🙏
So THAT’S what Scott looks like. Love the thoughtful analysis!
I’ll let you in on a secret, I’m covering my bald head with that hat.
I really enjoyed this, and I'd love more of these analysis videos
One of the best episodes I've seen. Thank you!! 👍
Another nail in the coffin for divine revelation…I don’t think Jesus needed highly paid social scientists to advise him…but Russell sure has assembled a crack team…🤣 Great episode guys and most informative….👍🏽
In my family- my siblings- 5 out of 7 have now left the church and we were raised in an extremely faithful home. ( these are my siblings ages 39-49).
However my mother bless her heart is on her 6th mission with my step dad.
But honestly we were raised in the perfect mormon house, we didn’t even take church clothes off after church on Sunday. And one of the 2 still in, is on his way out.
In my own personal family ( my kids), 4 of my 6 kids are out. I’m 48 and my kids are ages 26-17. My oldest is still in but very nuanced, my 2nd to youngest is on a mission. He’s still in. But my 17, 21, 23, 25 are out and were out before me. Also to note that my son who’s on a mission, he had a large group of Mormon friends- like 14 or more. Only him and another friend went on a mission- the rest have all pretty much left the church. I’m in eastern Idaho. 99% Mormon. My kids mostly live in Utah. My siblings 5 live in Utah- 2 in 3 out. 2 live in other parts of the country and are out.
That's my friend Brian! He's the best!
My thoughts are growing up I remembered the church would warn about all the members that would leave the church in the years to come. I remember being so afraid about that idea of losing faith that I never dared stray from the church… how manipulative that was looking back… 1:28:43
Fascinating episode. I agree that a multi-episode, truthful, telling of JS and Mormonism's history would be engrossing to lots of tv viewers!
Scott is lovely! Great episode folks.
I've been on the receiving end of a survey. Some really candid questions about Temple ceremonies and whether they were inspirational or not. Deep dive into children's experiences with church programs and our ability to convey our faith to our children. They were excellent questions and surprisingly objective. The vibe was "how can we make the church experience more effective for you?" were I to infer the intent. Very surprising and refreshing in a way. I can appreciate the disconnect from an official communication/general conference type of forum.
Thanks for the additional analysis and perspectives. I start here first through the introduction. Then I popped on over to Ramiumptum Ruminations to listen to the complete original interview(s) as included in chapters 56-58. Finally, I returned to Mormon Stories to finish where I left off. All great content!! The analysis added new and different perspectives which kept it interesting. Also, I appreciated the inclusion of PowerPoint outline for the structure and the multi-mode learning that it adds.
Another amazing podcast!!
This was a great talk! Enjoyed every minute!
There is no higher quality of instruction from the Spirit than one based on statistics.
I think some people convert from softer so called "namby pamby" protestant churches as they want greater regimentation in their lives. Yet they are often walking away from a loving accepting fellowship into churches that are harsh and dogmatic whose love is more like a stick and carrot relationship. Never underestimate the power of the duality of good and evil as a marketing tool. Its like joining a group where they get a psychological kick that being in a strict fellowship that controls everything you do gives you a feeling of belonging. Yet within a church that has this strict often unyielding grasp on its congregation cracks will always appear and people will fight back in several ways through a mixture of passive and aggressive actions. What is next for the Mormon church? I live in England where there is a Mormon meeting house and I think more people attend the building when they go to donate blood than they ever do to a Sunday meeting. The days are numbered in England and the rest of the UK for the Mormons as it now seems not to be able to offer a message that people want to hear and stay loyal to. Its often absurd history has destroyed its credibility within a country whose faith in Christianity is reducing. I think your streams are brilliant and I hope they benefit the Mormons who need a wise council. Have a wee dram on me. Graham.
Awesome panel and interview.
Thailand in 2003 had membership of 14,000, I was an office elder and we saw that active members country wide was around 2500. So 17% retention since the country was opened up to missionary work? Yikes! what started my truth journey out was when I turned down a bishopric calling because the stake presidency wanted me to shave my beard.
Works. Appearances. That’s not Jesus Christ. May God bless you.
When I was 14 and after sacrament meeting, my bishop called me into his office and told me "that my pierced ears made the members "uncomfortable" and "that I couldn't pass the sacrament anymore unless I removed them"
I was an active, believing, serving, tithe paying KID 😂 Went to mutual, baptisms for the dead, scouts, all service projects and was "worthy".
This was in 1994. I still went to church after my parents divorced and sat in the foyer for a few more months 😂
@@theflaterfapologist99 wow... no individuality allowed. And yet you were actually doing EVERYTHING. And they just couldn't deal with a pair of earrings. When you put it in words, it sounds so absurd that would even be an issue. The members weren't comfortable... Wow.
@@theflaterfapologist99 interesting priorities, for sure.
I was a good kid at the time, doing as much as I was asked to for, I guess what they'd call Zion
There are 6 of us (Gen X) in my family and only 1 of us is still TBM. I'm hanging on by my fingertips--very nuanced and only go every other Sunday or less--but in my family more are out than in.
@@jdsartre9520 Perhaps.
Laura: Hang in there! Ignore the predictions of Sartre, who obviously is not prophetically gifted but wants us to see the allusion to Jean Paul Sartre, the atheist philosopher/author of “Being and “Nothingness”. Having read the latter tome, I say create meaning for your spiritual being through the Church rather than leaping into the abyss of nothingness! There is no inevitability of leaving the Church because you are nuanced. Start listening to Faith Matters podcasts and read all the works of Teryl and Fiona Givens, who are faithful Strongly Nuanced members😇
@@got_style Thanks @JaneDoherty. I have loved the Givens' work in the past, although I haven't read their newer things.
@@lauracorsi3309 use logic and do more research. You’ll be out in no time.
So glad your feeling better now x
This was recorded before I got sick. I’ve still got a terrible cough.
Y’all provide wonderful truths. Relevant and necessary. So- Please - learn about “vocal fry” and the psychological things it reveals. And gets some air in your lungs! And examine what is making you use your voice that way. Yes!!
I'm a non-Mormon interested in the stories of people grappling with a meaning crisis. I would recommend two books to understand this meaning crisis in a more global context. 1. More Than Allegory: On Religious Myth, Truth and Belief by Bernardo Kastrup and 2. The Master and His Emissary by Iain McGilchrist.
I loved the commentary and analysis added to the interview!
The fact that Android devices allow for more customization is exactly why most employer-provided phones are Android devices. There definitely are apps that can be installed on any device though that allow for monitoring. My old firm installed some app on all attorney phones that would allow them to wipe any firm or client related information if the phone were lost or when the attorney no longer worked on the phone. They were insistent that they didn't monitor anything, but if you lost your phone and wanted it wiped entirely, they could do that too.
The church attracts sociopaths and control freaks some positively demonic
Scott! I want to be part of your DnD group. I saw a book that suspiciously looked like Call of Cthulhu and I was like nah, he's not that nerdy. Then you mentioned it. It all came together. nice.
Haha. Yes that is call of Cthulhu in the background.
My dnd group is a blast. We post our sessions on a podcast called 12 sided guys. We’re almost done with our first campaign and it’s 90 episodes so far.
@@scottRameumptomRuminations Wow. We've been playing in Chult and were only about 12 sessions in.
I finished the podcast and realized you went to Chile in 2006. Lol I was in Argentina in 2006. Great part of the world. I loved it there.
Shout-out to the Tallneck Lego set in the background!!! Horizon Zero Dawn was the game I was playing through during my faith crisis. Seeing the Provo Temple ruins in that game was super satisfying! Haha. One of the best video games ever!
Also, I’m a fellow Exmo who served in Chile! Viva Chile Mierda!
Dude their take on the ruined LDS temple was amazing. The captured the unique shape and feel of the building while also making it destroyed and aged 1000 years. It was great.
Loved the commentary! If you bring Scott back on a subject that could benefit from a female voice, we always love hearing from Margi!
I'm currently an active member of the LDS church. I've listened to Mormons Stories and John Dehlin for over 10 yrs, since very early in his podcast. I've watched the transformation from apologist to critic/victim advocate. I applaud John for leaving up his entire history of podcasts. The early podcasts were very helpful to me in expanding my understanding of touchy LDS issues, to the point of strengthening my testimony. I continue to listen just to keep abreast of new and developing criticisms of the church, church leaders, history, doctrine, etc. It's interesting to me that John and his guests continually assume that the majority of active members (like me) are in a bubble where these issues are not understood (and I mean everything from church history, to supposedly uninspired leaders, as this podcast suggests, as well as many mounting social issues -- patriarchy, LGBTQ, etc.). I speak for many, many of my active member friends when I say that we are not blind to these issues. This particular "bombshell" podcast is all based on your perspective, expectations, and the overall context from where a religious individual comes from with personal faith. To be critical, there's a smugness with this podcast that is a recurring theme in the last many years of Mormon Stories. That said, I'll continue to listen as will many, many of my active friends. I don't think it's doing quite the damage that you think it is.
You should be a guest in the podcast!!!
@@mormonstories I'd love to be. I don't think I'd be a good guest but I'd certainly consider it.
I'm in Mark's group also...
Great interview format.
Great episode. Thanks
Wow! I am Christian. This is the first time I’ve heard this type of discussion. My heart breaks for the people who are Mormon. From everything I am hearing, it appears that what is called the LDS Church is one big manipulation based on a shifting foundation. The only way to “fix it“ is to rest all of the teaching on the Holy Bible only. God is not mocked. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes unto to the Father but by Him. I pray that Mormons will begin to read and study and follow the teachings of the Bible and not the teachings of Joseph Smith, the criminal. it solves all the issues of men; especially cultural changes. There is hope. If they shipped I land on the firm foundation of Jesus Christ, who in the holy Bible and by secular documentation, died on the cross was buried and resurrected. Being saved from sin is what happens when you believe in the only true and living God and not the God of your own imagination. He is holy, He is omniscient, He is omnipotent, and He doesn’t need the help of men to populate the Earth.
As a born again believer and follower of Jesus Christ, my heart breaks for the LDS deceived in this high demand religion. The concept of grace is missing for the sake of their salvation.
Keep up the great work John & Co.! You all are so incredibly inspiring in your fearless pursuit of truth & accountability. You put those corporate Catholics out there to shame for sure!! Please stay the course, you give me hope for a better & more intellectually honest future 🙏 🕊️ ✌️
I am 72years old, 2016.my wife passed away 😢
I always had my doubts about the Mormons Church. I went on a mission, but didn't really have a testimony of Joseph Smith and Book of Mormon. I love God and want to do for God, Jesus Christ Our Savior.
Good for you! Are you plugged into a solid Bible church to do good for God. A good start is sharing the love of Jesus in tangible ways from charity to kindness to staying in the Word of God. I am a never Mormon, but living in Idaho that is very Mormon and hopefully moving to southern Utah, as a calling from God. Who knew?
I remember IDAHO, IDAHO FALLS, REXBURG, ASHTON, TWIN.FALLS,BLACKFOOT and LA MONT.Swan Valley
MORMON COUNTRY. I BELIEVE IN GOD AND HIS WORDS IN THE BIBLE.
This is blowing my mind man! This is freekish even after I read mind blowing stuff like the CES letter, or the Happiness letter. This is expanding my brain :O The expands my understanding more than the lds belief EVER did.
When I finally went to the temple to get married FOREVER I cried often and on all day. #1 my non Mormon saintly mother was not there! Her absentee spoken volumes only to me. This woman washed my diapers as a 16 year old in the creek! At times she'd had no running water! She did one thing after another to support and validate me. #2 they introduced me to temple garments. I saw myself wearing them in a mirror! "There went my sexy!" Was my thought. After a period of 15 years I left the Church and my children's Daddy. One of the questions for a temple recommend was "Do you wear your temple garments day and night?" My husband was having several problems. One was supporting 4 children. One was his non LDS family asking about how many children we were going to have? He was so nervous he became impotent. He no longer offered me sexual intercourse. I went on with passionate feelings. I ended up writing sexy letters to a prisoner. I was disfellowshiped. That was after I found pornography in his office. He wasn't disfellowshiped. We were taking care of ourselves. To say we grew apart was an understatement. On some level I will always love him. We are both remarried. When I pass an LDS Church on the highway I feel elated that I'm free of it.
Thank you for sharing your experience with us. These stories are so painful but it's wonderful to know you are free and have moved on.
Thank you for your podcast. It means a lot. After the LDS experience I studied with the Jehovah Witnesses. One day while driving I thought again about my Mom. "She doesn't deserve to be burned as trash because she didn't respond to their glad message!" She is just as good as any of their women. Then I went on the be skeptical of all of Christanity. I stood back and looked at it. Although I haven't traveled that much we always subscribed to the National Geographic magazine. I learned there are good people everywhere. It would be unjust and unloving to condemn any race or any people. The 6 day building of the earth? The Grand Canyon gives a different testimony. The Noah's flood! Even these huge cruise ships or air craft carriers couldn't hold 2 of all species and their food for 40 days. Sorry Noah. A family of any size couldn't do it. The Abraham's son story? Sounds more like a very bad girl friend! The Jonah and the whale story? Impossible! Now I ask myself how could I not question Everything? It took decades for me but now I feel more enlightened!
I feel sorry for the pain this caused to you and your family. For families in similar situations I recommend getting a fake temple recommend. When I listened to the interview with Mike Norton on "heart of the matter" where he told that he created fake temple recommend exactly for these situations, I realized how Christlike this actually was, because Jesus died for our sins, He is our temple recommend, and there is no need for worthiness interviews and silly coffee rules to keep us from the presence of God.
Thank you. Fascinating
I'm still laughing about the woman rollerskating in her temple clothes LOL
I’ve heard it said that “expectations are resents waiting to happen”. We are almost always going to be let down when our expectations aren’t met. What do we expect from the church leaders? Prophets, seers, and revelators. My expectations have always been that they can have prophetic futuristic insights, seers that can “see” spiritual things and make sense of stuff the normal person can’t, and reveal new information or spiritual truths. But then realizing there hasn’t really been any prophecies in my lifetime, especially prophecies that have worked, no new scripture, no unsealing or ancient texts, no seeing into the future and getting it right, no new revelations that have been factually correct. The expectations haven’t been met and puts me at odds with them and questions their role.
Either you’ve got to redefine your expectations, make their role less spiritual and think, they are using all the tools we have on earth, using research which then “reveals” dynamics and issues in the church. Or publishing gospel topic essays which “reveals” historical information. Well, this form of revelation isn’t spiritually based. It’s no different than big corporate institutions. Begs the question, what in fact is their ecclesiastical role as prophets, seers, and revelators if they really functioning as a corporate board of directors?
I love the church of Jesus Christ and it's wonderful leaders.