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Testing the R5c | Dynamic Range | A7s III, C70, 1DC & R5
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- Опубликовано: 15 авг 2024
- Canon R5C: www.proav.co.u...
Canon R5: www.proav.co.u...
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Canon C70: www.proav.co.u...
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Very interesting results! I really wish you guys had also tried a C70/clog2 vs R5C/clog3 test. After my review I got a surpassing amount of responses suggesting clog3 is as good or better than clog2.
Totally agree! I was hoping to see the differences on the C70 clog2 and the R5C clog3.. But your review of the R5C was the best! 🙌
My question would be, is the c70 optimized for clog2 to get the most dynamic range and highlight rolloff? if so, seems like using clog3 is intentionally crippling the c70
@@Miguel_Molina it is because of that DGO sensor
Why did Canon delete C-LOG2 ON R3 / R5 ?
@@changeli3901 because there isn’t enough dynamic range on those sensors to take advantage of clog2 it seems
Great test and very much appreciated but as others have stated Clog 2 should have been used for the C70. Some of us are considering the R5c to run with our C70’s and in real world we will continue to run Clog 2 even though the R5c can’t. This is the main issue that has me on the ropes to purchase the R5c because not certain how far off the two will be in dynamic range when cut together. Thanks for taking time to perform these test🙏🏾
Lots of people have asked for this. We will try and do a deeper dive comparing the R5c and C70 in more detail in the future
Carl
@@ProAVTV you guys have done an excellent job with these test to help us in making these tuff investments in equipment. I just wanted to provide positive/constructive feedback, we appreciate you and please continue bringing value to the community. Thanks Carl!!
@@ProAVTV we ever going to get to the clog 2 comparison. Still waiting =)
Why C70 is not in C-log2?
Because they wanted to compare like for like. The R5 and R5C don't do C-log2, so they set the C70 the same as the R5 and RC5, which is C-log3 to get a fair comparison.
Lots of people have asked for this. We will try and do a deeper dive comparing the R5c and C70 in more detail in the future
Carl
I also think that c70 should be in clog2, otherwise is like comparing 8k and 4k cameras in 4k resolution just to be fair to the one with lower resolution :)
The Sony also doesn't have Clog 3 so that's not the best argument :D
@@damiencooper Sony does not have Clog3 ... it's S-Log .... totally different color science.
Thanks for the test. Very curious why you wouldn’t compare clog2 as it has more dynamic range than clog3 on the c70 in available modes.
right! knowing that the c70 has more usable stops in clog2, using clog3 is just crippling it intentionally
yeah, I was really looking forward to this test but that really doesn't make a lot of sense :D
I Agree Griffin. I really would have loved to see C-log 2 C70 vs C-log 3 R5C. Especially since it does even better for those underexposed tests with its 2 additional stops in the shadows.
But I will say the difference in Raw codecs really got me excited for the C70 firmware update.
Maybe Carl you could revisit this test when the R5C and the C70 firmware are released?
@@damiencooper Big fanboy
How I wish that freaking DGO technology to be implemented in all cameras! Simply amazing tech, especially when you come to realize c70 is being compared to full frame sensor cameras. Just amazing!
Agreed, DGO is a great technology that really makes a subtle but important difference.
Carl
honestly would like to see a c50 with dgo and raw (ditch the inbuilt nd and xlr for cheaper price))
@@legendp2011 i would never want to ditch inbuilt nd's. ever. never. ever
@@Miguel_Molina same. ND are game changing and top of my list of important specs
Wow I watched this and the sharpness video, I’m getting an R5C. I got a bunch of ef glass so I can use the nd adapter behind the lens, and with tascam making full size xlr’s, well I cant see getting a C70, About the same price, but now you got a great photo camera as well.
I have the R5 and I’ve seen the crazy magenta tint in the shadows and I asked around on Reddit and Facebook but no one seems to have that problem. I even sent in my clips to Canon and they say they don’t see it! Finally now you’ve proven it!
You shuold use Clog2 for C70. It has more DR
Exactly. The camera can't use the additional 2 stops of DR in the shadows if it's in Clog3.
@@vermaaditya Agreed, pointless to do it in Clog3. Please do a comp using Clog2 in the next instalment so we can clearly see the advantage of C70's DGO sensor.
Its certainly not pointless to do it in Clog 3. But I hear you that it would have been useful to see Clog 2 as well. Perhaps we will do a deeper dive into the R5c vs the C70 and do more detailed tests.
Carl
@@ProAVTV Sorry pointless was poor choice of wording but it really is hard to see any shadow noise improvement with CLOG3 (and again I'm sure YT compression doesn't help). Thanks for your consideration, I think many of us Canon shooters looking to upgrade are interested in R5C vs C70 specifically!
Excellent video! Thank you for putting this together. I get why people are asking for C70 Clog2 test but I also understand your apples to apples comparison. Point is that the R5C seems to do a much better job than their stated DR stats show.
Wait, what was the reason for keeping the C70 in clog3? Doesn’t make sense to me in a video all about comparing dynamic range.
Rest was great, though. Thank you for testing.
Yea, pretty stupid
I'm confused. I'm trying to make an informed decision about what my next camera purchase might be. I get Sony is great if I want to shoot a black cat in a coal cellar and actually see it, but not something I shoot. DR is more important to me and if I had the budget I'd just go Arri. What I'm struggling with is in this test, you have not tested the C70 at clog2, which, apparently, has more DR, according to the numbers? I'm only interested in a camera/sensor's 'optimum' performance. By dumbing down the C70 to clog3, haven't you just applied a CVP 'cripple' hammer to this test? Given the price point, perhaps throw a Komodo into the mix as well?
They will eventualy.. At the begining of the video they do tell you what the test is trying to show in a short video. Longer videos tell you more but people get somtimes lost in all the details.
Definitely glad you compared Clog 3 between camera systems. Would've loved to see Clog 2 as well compared to clog3.
Please do more tests between the R5, Rfc, and C70 💚
When the C70 gets raw I definitely would love for you guys to test the different raw modes and comparing it to clog2 🔥 as well as comparisons to the Komodo, r5c/r3 & Fx6!
The 1D C is one of my favorite 4K DSLR's, and a very good 8 Bit camera. If you keep the exposure nominal, and use good glass, then the results obtainable are quite surprising for a 10 year old camera. However, there is that weak codec (MJEPEG).
Thank you for the hard work and getting so much content about this out to us so quickly. I have been looking forward to this and am glad to see some improvement. This camera isn't perfect, but I think we are getting quite a lot for jus 600 more.
No problem, thank you for watching.
No camera is perfect, nor ever will be.
Carl
Could you test the autofocus test?
Thats top of the list to test once we get the camera back
Carl
Why would you use clog3 and not clog2 on the c70? Totally defeats the purpose.
Thank you for all this test for us! Sony a7s3 keeps a good place in video market.
Watching from a grading monitor I can see a huge difference between the R5 and R5C . Damn the extra Fan and whatever Canon added have made this canera worth it . Great video guys keep up the good work.
oh man how i wish you had an R3 to test as well!
3:21 Super interesting! With the same sensor, I expected the R5C and R5 to look more or less the same. But clearly there's more going on behind the scenes.
Absolutely. The sensor itself is only one part of the puzzle
Carl
@@ProAVTV Could the Canon RAW on the R5 possibly be using lossy compression?
Because of the codec. But what happens when you pair R5 with atomos? This test's not enough to see the big picture.
Well done! Great work! I'm still most interested in a comparison of the R5 and the R5C on PHOTOmode... will the results of the photos be identical... ?
Yes in theory they should be. Apart from loosing IBIS anyway.
Carl
Canon please put Clog2 in the R5C. If you're gonna throw a C-level "Cinema" badge on that camera, it needs Clog2.
Can you please do the same test with the c70 using clog2?
Lots of people have asked for this. We will try and do a deeper dive comparing the R5c and C70 in more detail in the future
Carl
@@ProAVTV I would really like to see the C70 RAW vs the C300 Mark III RAW when it comes out next month. Not to see which one is better but what it would take to match them up.
why you used clog3 on the c70? I was interested on clog2, not a fair comparation using clog3 imo
Lots of people have asked for this. We will try and do a deeper dive comparing the R5c and C70 in more detail in the future
Carl
@@ProAVTV thanks! it would be amazing if you used the a7sIII and the s1h too because in terms of dynamic range those are the cameras to beat!
Thanks, great video! We are looking to shoot a project with a lot of nighttime woods exteriors. We already own an R5, would you recommend the A7Siii? After watching this, and knowing the low light capability of the Sony, you have me nearly convinced.
Great test and results! Looks like that fan on the R5c might be really helping those shadows! Albeit extreme examples here, it does show how much better suited the R5c is for video work. Even more, it has a full fledged stills camera in it!
Exactly. It shows that Canon have really paid attention to optimising the video modes as even with the same sensor it does perform differently to the R5
Carl
@@ProAVTV definitely. Thanks for all of your work testing this camera Carl (and team!).
Awesome video! Can you do a DR test/comparison on the R3 too? Or more videos about R3 Video in general! Love your work!
Sure, i'd love to compare it more to the R3. Theres just too much to talk about and not enough time in the day! Good problem to have though
Carl
@@ProAVTV ditto on the R3. its a beast!
Great tests!! Tanks Carl!!
No problem thanks for watching!
Carl
I'd love to see the R5C's 8K RAW LT codec thrown into Resolve and set to C-Log2 there, against the C70 C-Log2 and Sony's S-Log3 RAW output as well. That would showcase all cameras at their absolute maximum performance to see what the sensors are capable of. Thx!
I'd like to see it too. Thank you, you wrote first.
It’s been shown there is no difference in that process versus just using log 1.
@@dschapin Source?
@@dschapin it's wrong, I have r5 and r3, there is a difference between clog 1, clog 3 and clog 2 (raw). Watch the test I did
ruclips.net/video/ACh8ESdgmzY/видео.html
I don’t know much about the science of dynamic range, but why didn’t you do a test outside? It’s always helped to see how much highlight retention when backlit. Is that not an accurate way to measure it?
Its a great real world example, but its hard to do side by sides like this with lots of modes and cameras in an uncontrolled environment like that
Carl
I’m always confused by this topic .
How do I know when a camera it’s 4 stops or 3
Stops etc overexposed or underexposed ? By the meter under the camera ? It the meter is marking number -3 that means I’m 3 stops under ?
If so , what about if the camera doesn’t have a meter ?
So for these tests, we choose a 'normal exposure' to be our 0. This is how we would expose the camera in normal use. Then we raise or lower the exposure with our iris or shutter to go up and down in stops of light.
So T4 to T2.8 is one stop of light for example.
Carl
R5C acceptable performance considering it’s size. Hoping to pick one up and wait for a affordable FF DGO sensor from Canon.
I'd love to see adding Nikon Z9 on test.😉
I don't know if we do have 14 stops of the Dynamic range in the real world but looks like R5C does pretty well. Actually, I do prefer the film look of Canon C70 to the Canon R5. I hope R5C has some kind of film look.
But I would like to see a test of Dynamic Range outside in nature, where we can see clearly if we have the information of the sky and a person in frame. I also wonder how stable the flow of 8K raw is on Premiere or Davinci Resolve.
I rarely find that manufacturer claims of dynamic range match up with real world stops of Dynamic range.
I'm sure the internet will be full of examples like that. Our good friend Ollie at Korro Films has shared some of his r5c footage for example: ruclips.net/video/9XKUqI9frB8/видео.html
Carl
Thank you Carl for sending me this video. That's amazing that I can also download the videos to test them. That's the video I was looking for. :)
WOW R5c is Amazing
A serious threat even for the c500 Mk ii
It's not a threat for the C500 II, that camera has completely different ergonomics, strengths and weaknesses.
The R5c is incredibly capable though for what it is.
Carl
Please, use C-log 2 for this test. Why? Nobody uses C-Log3 on C70. Please, use atomos with R5. Why? Everybody does. After this can we see clearly.
it is not fair to test base on CLOG 3, it should go with CLOG2 in raw
Seeing the difference in the shadows and colour plus the fact that you have to switch the cameras operating system to shoot video makes me think part of the active cooling wasn't just to stop overheating but that Canon may be using a completely separate processor and internal pipeline for the data coming off of the sensor when shooting video compared to the stills mode. Something more similar to their EOS Cinema line as apposed to the processors used in the stills cameras.
Great comparison as always Carl. Thanks.
Would love to see the A1 in the comparison instead of A7s III as it's a closer competitor.
In terms of features yes, simply because it does 8K, but not price.
The A1 costs what it does because its such a capable hybrid camera. The r5c is Canon's video focused offering, and the a7s line has always been Sony's video focused offering.
Carl
@@ProAVTV , good point.. however R5C is true hybrid. As for price, I imagine A1 will get a price drop this year. 🤔
Just what I was looking for :)
Good! Glad we could help
Carl
Thanks for the test guys.
Feedback: showing images that are already clipped is a small letdown. Would have liked to see the point before breaking too.
Can't say that I agree with your analysis of the Sony image. The overexposed images here are as clipped as the Canon-albeit with more saturation remaining, which is often a choice the manufacturer makes. Both RED and ARRI desaturate their highlights as it's often more organic looking.
Also, you say the Sony waveform sits lower than the Canons, but in fact, it's higher? Anyway: I have absolutely zero interest in brand vs brand debates, just mentioning this as the comments were made 'matter of factly' and it didn't match my eyes.
I think DR tests that shoot an actual scene are always superior to just a Xyla chart, as those are often misleading.
Neither of the cameras involved has 14 stops, let alone 16. But that's for another discussion.
If only the R5C was in the R3's body....
I truly wish you could allow us to download actual raw 5 sec clips straight from the Canon R5c's card for us to test and grade on our end 🤠🤠🤠🤠
Ollie Kenchington has some beautiful sample clips which you can download and do exactly that with over here: ruclips.net/video/9XKUqI9frB8/видео.html
Carl
@@ProAVTV WOW thanks very much !!!!
Why would you put C70 in a clog3? It’s not realistic.
Lots of people have asked for this. We will try and do a deeper dive comparing the R5c and C70 in more detail in the future
Carl
Thanks so much !
Please compare detail quality test of 4k 120fps and AF test with the a7s3 and r5c~^^
I don't know if it's YT compression but it's hard to see the cleaner shadow information from C70 on the under-exposed test. As others are mentioning, using CLOG2 would make it a lot clearer and show the full extra shadow DR from the DGO sensor. Hopefully you don't mind adding that comparison (R5C vs C70 in Clog2) in the upcoming videos even though they're on different themes. I'm really on the fence in between R5C & C70 on a strictly IQ level and I'm sorry but this test doesn't really favour the C70 much.
Lots of people have asked for this. We will try and do a deeper dive comparing the R5c and C70 in more detail in the future
Carl
@@ProAVTV Cool, also with C70 RAW update next month, it will be even more interesting to compare DR, as Canon claims it should add a stop and fully unlock that DGO sensor and surely detail/sharpness will increase substantially as your own tests have shown in the past (when comparing 8K Raw to 8K mp4 on R5)!
How is this a dynamic range test if you skipped the C70 Clog2 on purpose to cripple the test? This makes no sense and is very misleading about the C70.
I'm going to be doing a more detailed comparison between just the R5c and C70 once we get the raw firmware update for the C70.
Carl
@@ProAVTV This video and title is misleading to get people to buy more R5c and justify its better than the C70 based on a massive crippled dynamic range test. Seems like a dodgy salesman tactic. More people can afford the R5c as a hobbyist over a C70 that is more expensive more matured tools and workflow for professionals while R5c is aimed for hobbyist with the crippling Clog-3 dynamic range, tiny HMDI port, no XLR or built in ND but has drooling 8k raw specs that very few people buying it can handle on there laptops for youtube. So this means the R5c is more profitable to sell on hype as an expensive toy and ProAV TV has a clear bias motive here to make more profits. But as a working professional cinematographer its become extremely frustrating with videos like this creating on purpose misleading and misinformation all the time. Do a more honest scientific test and less shady salesman tactics, take this video down and do a proper test with the new firmware. Actually contribute to the cinematography community and not hurt for quick profits.
Dude why not a test on clog 2????
Thanks for this video. It makes me wonder if the sensor in the R5C is the same in the R5. If yes, then Canon should be able to fix the color issue with the R5 via a firmware update. That being said, I’ve never had any issues with this magenta push.
The biggest issue is the lack of total dynamic range. Having Clog-2 would certainly help, but the Canon cripple hammer lives on.
C-Log 2 is designed for sensors with more dynamic range than this sensor has so wouldn't necessarily help.
Plus if you really want it, the raw footage can be interpreted in either Clog 2 or 3 in resolve no problem.
Carl
Clog2 is not a magic wand. The sensor needs to be capable making use of the Clog2. This is why it's not on the R5C as all Clog2 would do is reveal extra noise.
would love to see the 1dc exposed proper next to the r5....
Here you go: ruclips.net/video/MZzVwX22IiI/видео.html
Carl
Thanks!
Thanks for watching!
Carl
Isn't this a test of Latitude than Dynamic Range?
I'm a beginner. Sorry for this basic question. But when you talk about 4 stops under or 4 stops over, what do you mean. I just see on my camera +3 and -3. Gracias
Hi, maybe I can help, I'm not with Pro Av, just an interested amateur. A 'stop' represents a doubling or halving of the amount of output generated by the sensor. Increase in sensitivity is a positive figure, decrease is a negative figure. For example going from ISO 100 to ISO 200 in gain is an increase of one stop in sensitivity. Changing the shutter speed from 1/25 th second to 1/50 th second is a decrease of one stop in sensitivity. However changing the aperture from say f2 to f1.4 is rather confusingly an increase in one stop of sensitivity. That is because it depends on the area of the lens whilst the aperture is expressed as the lens focal length divided by the diameter. A one stop increase in sensitivity represents a doubling of sensitivity. A two stop increase represents a four times increase, (2 x 2), a three stop increase is 2 x 2 x 2 = eight times increase in sensitivity and a four stop increase is a 16 times increase in sensitivity (2 x 2 x2 x 2 = 16). I hope this is a bit of help. For much more info use Google!
@@bobuk5722 thanks for the explanation. So, the stops have nothing to do with the numbers that appear at the bottom of the LCD screen or viewfinder: -3 2 1 - O +1 2 3?
Those numbers you mention in the LCD screen are exactly the same thing. One stop over, two stops over etc.
The trouble with that scale inside the camera is that the camera is choosing what exposure is represented as 0.
For these tests, we choose an exposure to be our 0. And then raise and lower the exposure but adjusting our iris/shutter like Bob described to go up and down in exact 1 stop increments.
Carl
At -4 under expose, why Canon R5C looks much better than A7SIII?Isn't suppose Sony perform better in that area? Or it is youtube compression makes R5C looks better?
If you're not using clog2 on c70 then this comparison makes no sense.
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