I am gonna stick to raw copies for the foreseeable. This stinks. Scalpers are ruining this. Speculators destroyed a lot of the collectors market in the 90's, and I've been watching it all happen again for a few years now. Damn good work, matey. SUBSCRIBED!
Another reason to save money and keep my books Raw. CGC will likely drag their feet with this but will be quick to raise their prices for grading next year. Good job CGC. Until next time...Keep it Raw.
Great detective work, Ryan! CGC definitely needs to come clean and address this problem. It strikes at the very heart of their business. Some would be hesitant to purchase an Incredible Hulk #181 in a CGC slab for fear it might be missing the Marvel value stamp. If some unscrupulous individuals found a way to swap books in CGC holders without detection by CGC, it would spell real trouble for CGC. It smells like it could be an inside job, but there’s no evidence that anyone inside CGC is involved with this scam.
Yeah, they may need to implement new processes for reholdering. The hulk 181 shows that they definitely aren’t regrading them with the reholder. Maybe they need to.
Money laundering and inside manipulation of market for false profits. Pretty much why I won't ever send away for grading. If business fails under scrutiny All back issues judged by company won't be worth nothing as far as whatever it says on case.
The problem is that the "label" and the "inner sealed book" are separate. This is the flaw that allows this to happen. This has been wrong since the beginning of SLABs. The Plastic case is NOT the security because of the "Re-Slab Scam Loophole". Until now, we thought the case was the security. There are 3 pieces. Case, Label & Inner Seal. Re-Slabbing a damaged case allows for this scam. The label must be sealed in the Inner Seal.
We know a few more that we have substantiated in the same way. And many many many more that we have not yet. Thank you spreading the awareness. Thank you for digging!
@@Mightyant-tp3ko I would say it’s just important to be aware of the books this seller was scamming on. Hulk 181, and then high grade copies of ASM 300, new mutants 98, X-men 266, ASM 252 and ASM 238. Be extra cautious with those. There are tens of thousands of those graded. So it’s likely a small percentage that are impacted. So I wouldn’t lose too much sleep. But it’s something to just have in the back of your mind.
CGC will able to identify the owner and other books that they have submitted- this will unravel and could lead to other books or individuals in a scam.
I wouldn't hold your breath. CGC is a shitty company with slimy people up top running it. This was an elaborate inside job that they have known about for months and will keep it quiet as long as possible.
I think you nailed it. That’s the book. Now the question is who is doing this and is someone at CGC involved? Clearly this book are coming from CGC since it’s in their website. Is it a grader or the person encapsulating the books??? CGC reputation is now in jeopardy. How long has this been going on? Have they known about this and swept it under the rug. It’s all kinds of trouble if you asked me. How can anyone trust sending their books now. I send a 9.8 ASM 300 and get back a lesser book and all they do is hide behind a waiver. Wth kinda of answer is that. Where is their credibility and accountability. We all sign waivers before major medical procedures and guess what, doctors still get sued. They can’t hide behind a piece a paper saying you may or you may not die during surgery. If you don’t take your job seriously and professionally then you’re open to all kinds of problems.
It's all about the money now and not the hobby in of itself to enjoy and appreciate comics anymore. Collect and read what you like which also may inspire you to become an artist or a writer, but always be true to yourself as a true comicbook collector to know why and how you got started to liking comics in the first place. Nice review.
This is scary! If this dude figured it out, I bet others have as well. It's not as easy as "we ran that seller out of town, so the problem's solved." CGC must address this.
Ryan gave credit to the those responsible for uncovering the fraudster responsible for all of this. Ryan is a man of integrity, and I'll always be a fan.
Makes the real deal even more valuable. As the supply of the books now all need to be even more scrutinized.. really sad .. Let's hope with all the new technologies that are being discovered these grading companies can use cryptography to protect the reality of what we collect..computer chips ...cases that once are breeched explode a dye and destroy the original....just food for thought...similar to bank robbery... the money has been altered...
Great job Ryan. It does seem awfully coincidental that CGC started providing photos of every book they grade recently. Will certainly help going forward, but I do wonder if they knew something was amiss...
Happened to me over a year ago - They accidentally sent a signature series in the mail, (after I had already got my book lol) so I got some other dudes duplicate and they had the SAME CERT NUMBERS! Ended up being a massive just quality control error that even got the head guy in charge of helping. We got the duplicate back to the original owner and certs updated somehow in the end! :)
Wow. Just, wow. You are on an entirely different level from the rest of us. Outstanding effort. I cannot believe it, but someone will always try to scam. I feel bad for those buyers, what recourse would they even have through eBay, if anything. Also, I posted a comment on your other video about a MSHSW8 9.8 “MJ” that sold for $21k and I think that’s the same one you saw here when you were scrolling. I hope they see these posts and can cancel before paying. Great work, Ryan. Truly amazing.
If they bought recently enough, they could force a return with eBay. But more than 30 days and they’re kind of screwed. Maybe a credit card chargeback?
What a great catch! I was worried that something like this would eventually happen. If the buyer can be found, we may be able to get a better look at the slab to see if the slab tampering is evident. It could also be an inside job with a CGC employee. So many questions. Great investigative work, man!
Thank you for the video! I've been following 9.9 newstand, West Coast, and NEO cards & comics about this, so I'm glad to see more information. Awesome job sleuthing I haven't graded any books and don't own any graded books, and this is why I'm hesitant. Nefarious people will always find ways to be nefarious. It's also a reason I want to learn to clean and press my own comics; trusting someone else with their care is hard. Thank you again!
Thank you to you and all the others that have been bringing this serious issue to light and calling these scammers out. This is very troubling to me as I am someone that buys and sells comics through eBay and things like this make it harder for those of us that are legitimately selling books as buyers will begin to mistrust everyone that is selling out there because of the actions of a few. Now I don't blame CGC in so far as scammers will always innovate new scams no matter what security measures are in place but it is still incumbent on CGC to respond by enhancing the security of the slabs that they are sending out once grading is complete. I saw someone on one of the other channels suggest that maybe CGC should begin to serial engrave the inner sleeve that the comic resides in so that it has to match the serial number on the slab label. That way if the inner sleeve is compromised in any way it renders the grading invalid.
Either CGC have to revamp the case entirely and come up with validators on the insert bag or the bottom could fall out of slabs all together if this becomes rampant. These things are like roaches, if we see one, than there are hundreds.
We don’t know how far down the rabbit hole of deceit goes. It’s very worrisome that we can’t be exactly sure how long this kind of scam has been happening, and how many slabs have been swapped. Don’t be surprised if CGC doesn’t acknowledge any of it until they are forced to do so by the collecting community. I’m sure this could be happening to CBCS graded books as well. The label needs to be permanently affixed to the inner well, and should be tamper proof. I wonder if CGC captures a digital image of each book being graded. They better hope so.
You and others in the community should be commended and applauded for your work in ferreting out the truth of this matter. You have brought attention that CGC would LOVE to have never been brought up in the first place, and now, thanks to this great persistence and willingness to uncover shady people, CGC has no choice but to step up and assume responsibility for this. And it's not enough to say we've banned this customer. They need to get the authorities involved, and this person needs to be made an example of. Excellent job, guys!
I feel this was going to happen sooner or later when someone gets bitten by the green eyed monster known as greed and thought they would get away with it. Probably did'nt think it would be found out so soon. Great detective work !
Hi Ryan - You and I may not be totally aligned as to the implications of this mess - but I have watched about 12 of these from various youtubers, and I understand it fully and completely - so, I'm a little jaded - and I have to say, that you and one other guy are the only two youtubers who aren't accidentally filling in things with personal suppositions and then stating then as if they're facts. Plus your work on ASM 129 has been a critical contribution to understanding this mess. Good job!
I’ve been ringing the alarm bell about these slabbed mags for a while this is the tip of the iceberg this slab scamming is already out of control people just dont know it yet.
WOW!!! Props to you man for all that digging. Now, if this is all the case how does he go about the swap so CGC doesn't catch it? Thanks for the update and the video man and all you time in searching.
Amazing work! Bro you need a Pulitzer for this I’m serious. Can’t believe u found that book, this is fraud and theft and I think proper organizations need to get involved. I think the sellers from New York State, and given how tough New York commerce laws are, New York State needs to be notified.
Sent in a 9.2 ASM 300 this year graded by cgc it came back relabeled and graded at 7.0 after the signing. Unbelievable, totally thought it was a different book and no way to beat their contract on it. Thanks for pointing this out, I’ll never send cgc another book again.
This is what happens when collectors and a bunch of RUclips peddlers put all the focus and value on the label and the grading company. CGC, a company that lacks transparency and clearly cares more about profit over integrity, has been crowned the king of the aftermarket so they’ve been granted this blind faith. Nobody really cares what’s in the slab, they just want a high number. I’ve even seen comments about how “stupid” it is to crack out a high grade book. So this was bound to happen and probably has been happening for years.
This is scary for those buying books at the high end. For me personally I don’t think I’ll ever worry most of my collection is low grade anyway with some missing pages or having adds cut out. I collect for me not for value. My attitude is once it’s in a slab I’ve purchased the front and back covers because I’m likely not cracking it out.
Man this is crazy! Great research and hard evidence, thanks for such an informative video! I will be careful buying certain cgc books. More and more stuff makes me want to just not do any grading all together. Thanks again for a great video!
Awesome vid! Reslabber could be innocent too, “selling this awesome book for a bargain, but the case is damaged and will need to be reslabbed.” Buyer, reslabs it and never knows he was scammed.
Great video Ryan. I'm sure if we pick out a comic on the scammer'S sold listings we could find other proff. That FF#4 7.5 W looks like a candidate for investigation.
Amazing work Ryan! I’ve been following this story closely. I think any book this dude is selling that has a custom label is not legit. In fact any book. But what’s scary is, this is just one seller, god knows how many others who have been doing these scams. I’m sure more will keep coming out the wood work! Top work bud!
Watched 5 or 6 of these - You're savvy and thorough and thoughtful. That's refreshing! It's now been clearly shown that CGC cases can be easily tampered with, and books can be switched out, and no one knows how long this has been going on. It's easy and it lets the perp steal a lot of money. My bet is that it's not just a few hundred faked grades. Worse, it's undetectable. No one is even able to determine if their slab has been tampered and their Blue grade is valid. CGC wouldn't even be involved. Those are all facts. Are there thousands of faked grades or 10's of thousands? Which slabs have falsified grades? No one knows and no one can tell. My conclusion - CGC grades as a worthless indicator of condition on high value books. My take - Folks should avoid buying ALL high-value (even $250) CGC graded books for the time being. Who knows to what degree fake CGC graded slabs have infected collections and dealer stocks? It would be foolish to pay for a Blue label slab that may have missing panels / missing pages. The only way to "fix" this will be to have to have high value slabbed books cracked, re-graded into a newer, supposedly more "tamper-proof" slab once CGC comes up with one (oh, and hope that CGC doesn't damage the books in that process!). Until then, people and dealers shouldn't put any faith in, or trust or pay a certain $ amount for a specific grade - the value could be a tenth of what the CGC label indicates. Also, no one should be sending high-value books to CGC to be graded into one of these easy-to-tamper slabs - they're just going to have to do it again once CGC figures out what to do. Until then, no one should trust a CGC book's grade and pay a premium for any specific grade for any comic over $250. The CGC slab makes it impossible to look inside the book, and the grade on the slab isn't simply not guaranteed to apply to the book in the slab. Yeesh! A raw book's condition is actually more reliable and ascertainable than a slabbed one's now. This is a full-stop situation.
Why limit it to high value books? They’re ALL infected, and there’s no reason to think this couldn’t happen again. I personally think the people at the CGC could be switching them out themselves and getting paid. This thing has always seemed fishy to me.looks like I was justified to a degree. This is what they always to.d us about the dollar. It’s the confidence in the dollar that gives it value. Now you aren’t buying a comic, you’re buying a plastic box with a label, the label is what you’re buying it seems to me.
Wow. Absolutely wow. I have watched your channel from time to time and enjoyed your content. This level of detective work. I’m credible. Just so important for our hobby. I salute you. Well done.👍 Got yourself another subscriber. Thank you.🙏🏻
Appreciate it, thanks 👍. Honestly wish we didn’t have to do this, this level of fraud is awful to see, but this is really important so I think it needs to be done.
@@AutomaticComics thank you. And normally I would say my pleasure, but this was a very unfortunate thing that I was briefly hesitant to shine light on, but I felt morally obligated. Once I connected the dots on the ASM 252, I just kept finding more information.
I started a CGC accountability group on Facebook a while ago. Its inception was mainly around inconsistent grading standards, but this could be a helpful resource or community for anyone impacted here. For the record, I love graded books and specifically signature series, but I can’t stand the inconsistency at CGC and as the name of my group would suggest, the lack of accountability for their inconsistency.
This is sad, looks like it was sold on ebay, should be easy to find the seller, who needs to be questioned (although he can always deny). It shouldn't be too hard to track this scam as you have pointed out the two books involved. I feel like this is a criminal action/ illegal, but I don't know if a few thousand dollars is enough to get more than a slap on the wrist. In any case, the perpetrator needs to be caught and fined
Based on the sales. I’d say this likely gets to like 50-75k. Maybe over 100k. And that’s just the ones we can see from the last 3 months. We have no idea prior to that.
Think about it, how many times have seen gift grades? Maybe not all of them were bad graders, some were legitimately lower grade books just switched and reholdered.
You spoke about the defects for the green label but I don't think you mentioned the price difference between the blue 9.0 and the green 8.5. I was just curious what the price difference was..
Excellent investigative work Ryan. My guess is that someone noticed the flaw in cgc’s reholdering process and exploited it. Humans get lazy and take shortcuts when it comes to repetitive tasks. It’s how people are able to escape from high security prisons. No one inside cgc needs to be involved.
It seems to me that all of these gradings are now null and void, but due to the money involved, people will soon pretend this never happened. I guess if there were a few counterfeit dollars found it wouldn’t nullify the rest, but to me, it’s a close call. I’ve ALWAYS suspected that inside CGC, they were switching comics, which is a different issue, but I’ve always suspected it, and I’ve never bought into this whole thing.
trying to get my head around what we think happened here, is it someone is able to swap out a lower book into a higher slab, make the slab look sealed and then send it to CGC for reholder and they do not notice the tamper when they crack it?
New subscriber Thank you for the information! There is forgery in the expensive art world and classic cars…some even fools the experts Sad to see it happening in our hobby now I suspected it was out there with the high price of the blue chip comics Curious to see how CGC, the industry, and high dollar collectors respond Gets messy when a buyer sues a auction house for selling a fraudulent hulk 181 Who is responsible? CGC? Auction house? Person who submitted slab to auction house?
Who is the seller and why are we not focusing on who is doing this so we all stay away and/or file charges against them. For this amount, it is already felony theft.
Also you got to ask if they swap the comics when CGC grade them. I swear there were times where the comics I sent and inspect a thousand times for certain flaws comes back worst after it is graded, I sent in NM 98 and came back with a crease at the back..😭😭😭
They absolutely do swap out books. I know someone who sent in an immaculate comic book to CGC and it came back with a dinged corner and small creases on the spine. We both looked it over before it was sent in and it didn't have those flaws at all. They are con artists and thieves.
A book being damaged in shipping or handling at CGC doesn’t mean it was swapped out. It may mean that someone didn’t handle it well, which is its own problem, but there has never been any proof of swapping books at CGC.
Ryan i could use some information on how you found this info on go collect. I had a box of books stolen thy had just come back from cgc and I never got to see them. I do still have the original submission paper but never got to get a serial #. One was a March of comics #4 first Donald Duck. It had a had a very distinct pice of the top left cover torne out. Also a superman 76. Is there any way to find out if this book ever sold or what my serial number was? Thanks for any help
Thank you! You have just destroyed cgc for anyone with half a brain. You have to assume that it could be ANY book you buy. This will factor in going forward in terms of price and demand. Couldn’t happen to a nicer company. Lol Great video.
In my mind, all trust in grading companies was destroyed long ago. Back when it was found out that PSA graded that Gretzky Honus Wagner card an 8 and later it was found that the card was trimmed and shouldn't have even got a number grade at all, I made up my mind that I'd never send anything in to get graded. WATA is known for scams on video games, and now CGC is shitting the bed on comic books. None of them can be trusted as far as I'm concerned. The original purpose of slabbing things was for authentication and to be able to find altered and restored collectibles. Now it's all about that 9.8 or elusive 10.0 grade. The difference in value between a 9.0 and 9.8 is insanity. Hell, the difference in value between a 9.6 and 9.8 is crazy too. Then you have owners, employees, and friends of owners and employees getting super high grades for their items while everyone else gets ripped off. The old boys club in the grading industry needs to be destroyed for good. These companies have ruined the hobby of collecting.
Great video, good work. These scammers completely undermine and ruin the hobby. I hope they get their punishment and sould be banned from submitting books. How stupid do you need to be to put a green label comic into a universal case. Someone was bound to crack one of these for CPR at some point. And CGC didnt notice? Stay strong community.
I don't know if this example applies to this scam or if it was just a CGC labeling mistake, but your video reminded me of a weird labeling situation I came across during Comic Link's auction that ran in late October through early November. After I won an auction for a CGC 9.8 Australian Price Variant of ASM 363, I downloaded a copy of the slab included with the lot post for my records. Looking at the image, I noticed the price on the cover was the typical $1.25 for a US newsstand copy instead of the $1.80 price that should've been on the cover. I missed it when I first looked at the posting and then bid on the lot because the CGC label noted that it was an Australian Price Variant. I contacted Comic Link and they voided the sale, assuming that CGC mistakenly added the wrong label. While that's likely what happened, after watching your video, I'm wondering if someone did switch labels with a US newsstand copy. Naturally, it would make the book with a price variant label more attractive and expensive than a normal newsstand edition.
I just looked up the book again, which was last sold in May 2021 for $514. The CGC certification page, which, from what I can remember investigating after I had won the lot, had it listed as an Australian Price Variant. Now, it's listed just as a newsstand edition with screenshots of the correct Newsstand label. So, I'm guessing it likely was a CGC mistake and the seller sent it in for a reholder after I alerted CL of the mistake. But it made me wonder then and still makes me wonder now, how the seller, who paid a premium and had the book for two years, wasn't aware of the mistake when he/she put it up for auction. Or maybe the person did know and tried to pass it on to someone else and in hopes of recouping some of the money lost.
Great work! I'll be curious to see if this changes how CGC and other grading companies do business. I suppose it really all depends on whether or not this results in any legal action or reduced submissions. I hope the community can keep pressure on the grading companies until a solution is created. There may be hundreds of tampered slabs out in the wild now, and if you can't trust a slabbed book what's the point?
I've been telling Fan's the corruption of those Grading companies!! Instead of grading an item for what it is! thay grad it for what it's worth!! For me, their money hungry assholes!! Without Honor!!🤔😜👍 And I'll find a business that will grad an item without prejudice.And they're out there!!!🤗👍
Damn this is absolutely crazy. There was someone who bought a hulk 181 that brys comics covered where the buyer cracked it out and had inserts missing and the seller fully refunded them having not known this was the case. If you could find that qualified grade of the same book and actually see when that book sold and ask the previous seller their history with the book, you could then prove whether they’re the one trying to scam! Thanks for the info
Um.. this is worrying, but cgc is meant to even check books that are being recased. I had an Ironman 55 and even one of a friends books dropped a grade when just recasing. If this can slip through, it shows they are not checking all or it is an inside job
That seller is gone from E-Bay. I wonder if they closed their account or if E-Bay did? Also, the seller tried selling under an alternate name, but that is closed down as well.
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I am gonna stick to raw copies for the foreseeable. This stinks.
Scalpers are ruining this. Speculators destroyed a lot of the collectors market in the 90's, and I've been watching it all happen again for a few years now.
Damn good work, matey.
SUBSCRIBED!
Thanks for the sub 👍
Another reason to save money and keep my books Raw. CGC will likely drag their feet with this but will be quick to raise their prices for grading next year. Good job CGC. Until next time...Keep it Raw.
CBCS.
Great detective work, Ryan! CGC definitely needs to come clean and address this problem. It strikes at the very heart of their business. Some would be hesitant to purchase an Incredible Hulk #181 in a CGC slab for fear it might be missing the Marvel value stamp. If some unscrupulous individuals found a way to swap books in CGC holders without detection by CGC, it would spell real trouble for CGC. It smells like it could be an inside job, but there’s no evidence that anyone inside CGC is involved with this scam.
Yeah, they may need to implement new processes for reholdering. The hulk 181 shows that they definitely aren’t regrading them with the reholder. Maybe they need to.
Agreed.
Money laundering and inside manipulation of market for false profits.
Pretty much why I won't ever send away for grading.
If business fails under scrutiny All back issues judged by company won't be worth nothing as far as whatever it says on case.
The problem is that the "label" and the "inner sealed book" are separate. This is the flaw that allows this to happen. This has been wrong since the beginning of SLABs. The Plastic case is NOT the security because of the "Re-Slab Scam Loophole". Until now, we thought the case was the security. There are 3 pieces. Case, Label & Inner Seal. Re-Slabbing a damaged case allows for this scam. The label must be sealed in the Inner Seal.
CGC, we can detect cleaned covers for POD's but switched books fly right over our heads.....
We know a few more that we have substantiated in the same way. And many many many more that we have not yet.
Thank you spreading the awareness. Thank you for digging!
Bro, I really appreciate you, Swagg and all the others who are bringing awareness to this fraud. Great detective work my guy! 🤜🏾🤛🏻😀
Thanks 👍
@AutomaticComics so now we question every cgc book we buy?
@@Mightyant-tp3ko I would say it’s just important to be aware of the books this seller was scamming on. Hulk 181, and then high grade copies of ASM 300, new mutants 98, X-men 266, ASM 252 and ASM 238.
Be extra cautious with those. There are tens of thousands of those graded. So it’s likely a small percentage that are impacted. So I wouldn’t lose too much sleep. But it’s something to just have in the back of your mind.
Nice job Ryan! He would have gotten away with it too if not for you meddling kids!!! Scooby doobie doo!!!
😂
Wow, that’s some really good investigative reporting right there! 👍
Nice job, surely CGC will follow up on this!
It’s a pretty huge forum post now, so hopefully.
CGC will able to identify the owner and other books that they have submitted- this will unravel and could lead to other books or individuals in a scam.
@@shepherdsknoll yeah, I am guessing they all came in from the same account
I wouldn't hold your breath. CGC is a shitty company with slimy people up top running it. This was an elaborate inside job that they have known about for months and will keep it quiet as long as possible.
I think you nailed it. That’s the book. Now the question is who is doing this and is someone at CGC involved? Clearly this book are coming from CGC since it’s in their website. Is it a grader or the person encapsulating the books??? CGC reputation is now in jeopardy. How long has this been going on? Have they known about this and swept it under the rug. It’s all kinds of trouble if you asked me. How can anyone trust sending their books now. I send a 9.8 ASM 300 and get back a lesser book and all they do is hide behind a waiver. Wth kinda of answer is that. Where is their credibility and accountability. We all sign waivers before major medical procedures and guess what, doctors still get sued. They can’t hide behind a piece a paper saying you may or you may not die during surgery. If you don’t take your job seriously and professionally then you’re open to all kinds of problems.
You hit the nail on the head. It's an inside job and CGC knows about it but has decided to keep quiet.
It's all about the money now and not the hobby in of itself to enjoy and appreciate comics anymore.
Collect and read what you like which also may inspire you to become an artist or a writer, but always be true to yourself as a true comicbook collector to know why and how you got started to liking comics in the first place.
Nice review.
CGC fan boys will totally still stand by this company in their eyes CGC can do no wrong
Those are the only boys that will lose in the end. Real comic fans don't care about CGC.
This is scary! If this dude figured it out, I bet others have as well. It's not as easy as "we ran that seller out of town, so the problem's solved." CGC must address this.
Ryan gave credit to the those responsible for uncovering the fraudster responsible for all of this. Ryan is a man of integrity, and I'll always be a fan.
Ryan has Batman level detective skills. FOR REAL.
🕵️♂️
He actually has no level “steal info from others” skills
Makes the real deal even more valuable. As the supply of the books now all need to be even more scrutinized.. really sad ..
Let's hope with all the new technologies that are being discovered these grading companies can use cryptography to protect the reality of what we collect..computer chips ...cases that once are breeched explode a dye and destroy the original....just food for thought...similar to bank robbery... the money has been altered...
Great job Ryan. It does seem awfully coincidental that CGC started providing photos of every book they grade recently. Will certainly help going forward, but I do wonder if they knew something was amiss...
Happened to me over a year ago - They accidentally sent a signature series in the mail, (after I had already got my book lol) so I got some other dudes duplicate and they had the SAME CERT NUMBERS! Ended up being a massive just quality control error that even got the head guy in charge of helping. We got the duplicate back to the original owner and certs updated somehow in the end! :)
I remember that! Who knew it’s happening dozens if not thousands of times.
The Cat Burglar has been caught!!! Great work!
Wow. Just, wow. You are on an entirely different level from the rest of us. Outstanding effort. I cannot believe it, but someone will always try to scam. I feel bad for those buyers, what recourse would they even have through eBay, if anything. Also, I posted a comment on your other video about a MSHSW8 9.8 “MJ” that sold for $21k and I think that’s the same one you saw here when you were scrolling. I hope they see these posts and can cancel before paying. Great work, Ryan. Truly amazing.
If they bought recently enough, they could force a return with eBay. But more than 30 days and they’re kind of screwed. Maybe a credit card chargeback?
wow that's unbelievable thanks for pointing this out this could open up a boat load of issues for CGC thanks for pointing this out Ryan
What a great catch! I was worried that something like this would eventually happen. If the buyer can be found, we may be able to get a better look at the slab to see if the slab tampering is evident. It could also be an inside job with a CGC employee. So many questions. Great investigative work, man!
Bravo Ryan, that's big big news. Thank you. Man you guys just blew this thing wide open.
Great work man. You’re doing your bit for the community.
Now that puts all CGC books in question
Thank you for the video! I've been following 9.9 newstand, West Coast, and NEO cards & comics about this, so I'm glad to see more information. Awesome job sleuthing
I haven't graded any books and don't own any graded books, and this is why I'm hesitant. Nefarious people will always find ways to be nefarious. It's also a reason I want to learn to clean and press my own comics; trusting someone else with their care is hard.
Thank you again!
Thank you to you and all the others that have been bringing this serious issue to light and calling these scammers out. This is very troubling to me as I am someone that buys and sells comics through eBay and things like this make it harder for those of us that are legitimately selling books as buyers will begin to mistrust everyone that is selling out there because of the actions of a few. Now I don't blame CGC in so far as scammers will always innovate new scams no matter what security measures are in place but it is still incumbent on CGC to respond by enhancing the security of the slabs that they are sending out once grading is complete. I saw someone on one of the other channels suggest that maybe CGC should begin to serial engrave the inner sleeve that the comic resides in so that it has to match the serial number on the slab label. That way if the inner sleeve is compromised in any way it renders the grading invalid.
Yeah, that’s my main hope from this. That they update their process to find a way to counteract this method or fraud.
Either CGC have to revamp the case entirely and come up with validators on the insert bag or the bottom could fall out of slabs all together if this becomes rampant. These things are like roaches, if we see one, than there are hundreds.
We don’t know how far down the rabbit hole of deceit goes. It’s very worrisome that we can’t be exactly sure how long this kind of scam has been happening, and how many slabs have been swapped. Don’t be surprised if CGC doesn’t acknowledge any of it until they are forced to do so by the collecting community. I’m sure this could be happening to CBCS graded books as well. The label needs to be permanently affixed to the inner well, and should be tamper proof. I wonder if CGC captures a digital image of each book being graded. They better hope so.
You and others in the community should be commended and applauded for your work in ferreting out the truth of this matter. You have brought attention that CGC would LOVE to have never been brought up in the first place, and now, thanks to this great persistence and willingness to uncover shady people, CGC has no choice but to step up and assume responsibility for this. And it's not enough to say we've banned this customer. They need to get the authorities involved, and this person needs to be made an example of.
Excellent job, guys!
I feel this was going to happen sooner or later when someone gets bitten by the green eyed monster known as greed and thought they would get away with it. Probably did'nt think it would be found out so soon. Great detective work !
Unfortunately it seems like they’ve probably been doing it for at least months. But who knows how long.
Hi Ryan - You and I may not be totally aligned as to the implications of this mess - but I have watched about 12 of these from various youtubers, and I understand it fully and completely - so, I'm a little jaded - and I have to say, that you and one other guy are the only two youtubers who aren't accidentally filling in things with personal suppositions and then stating then as if they're facts. Plus your work on ASM 129 has been a critical contribution to understanding this mess. Good job!
I’ve been ringing the alarm bell about these slabbed mags for a while this is the tip of the iceberg this slab scamming is already out of control people just dont know it yet.
Amazing work this needs more shares and views.
WOW!!! Props to you man for all that digging. Now, if this is all the case how does he go about the swap so CGC doesn't catch it? Thanks for the update and the video man and all you time in searching.
Amazing work! Bro you need a Pulitzer for this I’m serious. Can’t believe u found that book, this is fraud and theft and I think proper organizations need to get involved. I think the sellers from New York State, and given how tough New York commerce laws are, New York State needs to be notified.
Sent in a 9.2 ASM 300 this year graded by cgc it came back relabeled and graded at 7.0 after the signing. Unbelievable, totally thought it was a different book and no way to beat their contract on it. Thanks for pointing this out, I’ll never send cgc another book again.
Sheesh, great work dude. I was always on the fence about sending my books in.
This is what happens when collectors and a bunch of RUclips peddlers put all the focus and value on the label and the grading company. CGC, a company that lacks transparency and clearly cares more about profit over integrity, has been crowned the king of the aftermarket so they’ve been granted this blind faith. Nobody really cares what’s in the slab, they just want a high number. I’ve even seen comments about how “stupid” it is to crack out a high grade book. So this was bound to happen and probably has been happening for years.
New subscriber!! Really questioning if i should send anything to CGC. Awesome video!
Thanks for subscribing 👍
This is scary for those buying books at the high end. For me personally I don’t think I’ll ever worry most of my collection is low grade anyway with some missing pages or having adds cut out. I collect for me not for value. My attitude is once it’s in a slab I’ve purchased the front and back covers because I’m likely not cracking it out.
Man this is crazy! Great research and hard evidence, thanks for such an informative video! I will be careful buying certain cgc books. More and more stuff makes me want to just not do any grading all together. Thanks again for a great video!
Any action plan from CGC on how they would improve sealing the slabs to protect the collectors from purchasing these fraudulent items moving forward?
Awesome vid! Reslabber could be innocent too, “selling this awesome book for a bargain, but the case is damaged and will need to be reslabbed.” Buyer, reslabs it and never knows he was scammed.
Great detective work, Ryan!
Great video Ryan. I'm sure if we pick out a comic on the scammer'S sold listings we could find other proff. That FF#4 7.5 W looks like a candidate for investigation.
Scary shot!! My prayers are with those past and current buyers!
Amazing work Ryan! I’ve been following this story closely. I think any book this dude is selling that has a custom label is not legit. In fact any book. But what’s scary is, this is just one seller, god knows how many others who have been doing these scams. I’m sure more will keep coming out the wood work! Top work bud!
Watched 5 or 6 of these - You're savvy and thorough and thoughtful. That's refreshing! It's now been clearly shown that CGC cases can be easily tampered with, and books can be switched out, and no one knows how long this has been going on. It's easy and it lets the perp steal a lot of money. My bet is that it's not just a few hundred faked grades. Worse, it's undetectable. No one is even able to determine if their slab has been tampered and their Blue grade is valid. CGC wouldn't even be involved. Those are all facts. Are there thousands of faked grades or 10's of thousands? Which slabs have falsified grades? No one knows and no one can tell. My conclusion - CGC grades as a worthless indicator of condition on high value books. My take - Folks should avoid buying ALL high-value (even $250) CGC graded books for the time being. Who knows to what degree fake CGC graded slabs have infected collections and dealer stocks? It would be foolish to pay for a Blue label slab that may have missing panels / missing pages. The only way to "fix" this will be to have to have high value slabbed books cracked, re-graded into a newer, supposedly more "tamper-proof" slab once CGC comes up with one (oh, and hope that CGC doesn't damage the books in that process!). Until then, people and dealers shouldn't put any faith in, or trust or pay a certain $ amount for a specific grade - the value could be a tenth of what the CGC label indicates. Also, no one should be sending high-value books to CGC to be graded into one of these easy-to-tamper slabs - they're just going to have to do it again once CGC figures out what to do. Until then, no one should trust a CGC book's grade and pay a premium for any specific grade for any comic over $250. The CGC slab makes it impossible to look inside the book, and the grade on the slab isn't simply not guaranteed to apply to the book in the slab. Yeesh! A raw book's condition is actually more reliable and ascertainable than a slabbed one's now. This is a full-stop situation.
Why limit it to high value books? They’re ALL infected, and there’s no reason to think this couldn’t happen again. I personally think the people at the CGC could be switching them out themselves and getting paid. This thing has always seemed fishy to me.looks like I was justified to a degree. This is what they always to.d us about the dollar. It’s the confidence in the dollar that gives it value. Now you aren’t buying a comic, you’re buying a plastic box with a label, the label is what you’re buying it seems to me.
@@LKaramazovabsolutely!!! You're just buying a label. I fucking hate grading companies with a passion.
You are an asset to our community!
Wow. Absolutely wow. I have watched your channel from time to time and enjoyed your content. This level of detective work. I’m credible. Just so important for our hobby. I salute you. Well done.👍 Got yourself another subscriber. Thank you.🙏🏻
Appreciate it, thanks 👍. Honestly wish we didn’t have to do this, this level of fraud is awful to see, but this is really important so I think it needs to be done.
This is wild. Great detective work Ryan. You gotta change your logo to the Sherlock Holmes hat going forward 😂
Wow. All of these issues make me appreciate even more the security features added to CBCS updated label and case! 😮
great job! thanks for solving the case of the switching cases!
Thank you for making this video!! You are absolutely right!
Thanks for bringing awareness about it 👍
@@AutomaticComics thank you. And normally I would say my pleasure, but this was a very unfortunate thing that I was briefly hesitant to shine light on, but I felt morally obligated. Once I connected the dots on the ASM 252, I just kept finding more information.
Also didn’t you do a video recently where a buyer cracked a hulk 181 with a universal label and had the value stamp missing?
Thank you Ryan for your effort into getting to the bottom of this.
Wow. Well done sir. Amazing research.
I started a CGC accountability group on Facebook a while ago. Its inception was mainly around inconsistent grading standards, but this could be a helpful resource or community for anyone impacted here. For the record, I love graded books and specifically signature series, but I can’t stand the inconsistency at CGC and as the name of my group would suggest, the lack of accountability for their inconsistency.
This is sad, looks like it was sold on ebay, should be easy to find the seller, who needs to be questioned (although he can always deny). It shouldn't be too hard to track this scam as you have pointed out the two books involved. I feel like this is a criminal action/ illegal, but I don't know if a few thousand dollars is enough to get more than a slap on the wrist. In any case, the perpetrator needs to be caught and fined
Based on the sales. I’d say this likely gets to like 50-75k. Maybe over 100k. And that’s just the ones we can see from the last 3 months. We have no idea prior to that.
Think about it, how many times have seen gift grades? Maybe not all of them were bad graders, some were legitimately lower grade books just switched and reholdered.
That’s why CGC needs to address this immediately. It erodes trust
@@AutomaticComics looks like I'm sticking with raw golden age pch for a little bit.
From a legitimate conservation standpoint, slabbing a comic is woefully insufficient anyway. No reason to ever get a book slabbed.
You spoke about the defects for the green label but I don't think you mentioned the price difference between the blue 9.0 and the green 8.5. I was just curious what the price difference was..
green label is 50% tops, and .5 for that book is 10-20% I'd say
The green label sold for like $3300. So price difference was $3800 minus grading and selling fees.
Excellent investigative work Ryan. My guess is that someone noticed the flaw in cgc’s reholdering process and exploited it. Humans get lazy and take shortcuts when it comes to repetitive tasks. It’s how people are able to escape from high security prisons. No one inside cgc needs to be involved.
It seems to me that all of these gradings are now null and void, but due to the money involved, people will soon pretend this never happened. I guess if there were a few counterfeit dollars found it wouldn’t nullify the rest, but to me, it’s a close call. I’ve ALWAYS suspected that inside CGC, they were switching comics, which is a different issue, but I’ve always suspected it, and I’ve never bought into this whole thing.
trying to get my head around what we think happened here, is it someone is able to swap out a lower book into a higher slab, make the slab look sealed and then send it to CGC for reholder and they do not notice the tamper when they crack it?
CGC needs to address the issue now. This is something they should investigate and go after the scammers.
So disappointing for our community. Thank you for sharing. Wonder if the are making labels
No they aren’t making labels. These are definitely reslabbed by CGC. The image of the book on the CGC site matches the reslabbed book.
New subscriber
Thank you for the information!
There is forgery in the expensive art world and classic cars…some even fools the experts
Sad to see it happening in our hobby now
I suspected it was out there with the high price of the blue chip comics
Curious to see how CGC, the industry, and high dollar collectors respond
Gets messy when a buyer sues a auction house for selling a fraudulent hulk 181
Who is responsible? CGC? Auction house? Person who submitted slab to auction house?
Thanks for subscribing 👍. Those are definitely some of the hard questions that will likely come out of this.
Awesome video Ryan.
CGC needs to respond to this
Great job. Thanks for exposing this.
Who is the seller and why are we not focusing on who is doing this so we all stay away and/or file charges against them. For this amount, it is already felony theft.
AGREE WE NEED TO KNOW WHO THE F THAT FRAUDSTER IS
The scammer made his ig private and eBay took down the listings.
If true then every cgc graded book needs to be re-graded. Massive recall, must assume every book. Big bucks!
Great work, Ryan! This is a serious scam.
Nice detective work. Wow. CGC has to respond. This is huge.
Okay, please help me understand the process. How is an inferior copy of #181 re-submitted (Green label) for an already submitted book (nice 9.0)?
Also you got to ask if they swap the comics when CGC grade them. I swear there were times where the comics I sent and inspect a thousand times for certain flaws comes back worst after it is graded, I sent in NM 98 and came back with a crease at the back..😭😭😭
They absolutely do swap out books. I know someone who sent in an immaculate comic book to CGC and it came back with a dinged corner and small creases on the spine. We both looked it over before it was sent in and it didn't have those flaws at all. They are con artists and thieves.
A book being damaged in shipping or handling at CGC doesn’t mean it was swapped out. It may mean that someone didn’t handle it well, which is its own problem, but there has never been any proof of swapping books at CGC.
Is there any way to see who purchased that Hulk 181 that graded an 8.5? Not an auto indictment but could lead us to who was committing this fraud.
I’d check out some of my more recent videos. There has been a lot of new info since this video came out.
Ryan i could use some information on how you found this info on go collect. I had a box of books stolen thy had just come back from cgc and I never got to see them. I do still have the original submission paper but never got to get a serial #. One was a March of comics #4 first Donald Duck. It had a had a very distinct pice of the top left cover torne out. Also a superman 76. Is there any way to find out if this book ever sold or what my serial number was? Thanks for any help
Good job detective. Proof is right there. Thank you for your content.
Thank you! You have just destroyed cgc for anyone with half a brain. You have to assume that it could be ANY book you buy. This will factor in going forward in terms of price and demand. Couldn’t happen to a nicer company. Lol
Great video.
In my mind, all trust in grading companies was destroyed long ago. Back when it was found out that PSA graded that Gretzky Honus Wagner card an 8 and later it was found that the card was trimmed and shouldn't have even got a number grade at all, I made up my mind that I'd never send anything in to get graded. WATA is known for scams on video games, and now CGC is shitting the bed on comic books. None of them can be trusted as far as I'm concerned. The original purpose of slabbing things was for authentication and to be able to find altered and restored collectibles. Now it's all about that 9.8 or elusive 10.0 grade. The difference in value between a 9.0 and 9.8 is insanity. Hell, the difference in value between a 9.6 and 9.8 is crazy too. Then you have owners, employees, and friends of owners and employees getting super high grades for their items while everyone else gets ripped off. The old boys club in the grading industry needs to be destroyed for good. These companies have ruined the hobby of collecting.
Great job finding the 181. Looking forward to CGC's response.
Great job finding this when so many people were looking!
Good job reporting. I hope cgc will take action. Some Bad people in the comic community.
Great video, good work. These scammers completely undermine and ruin the hobby. I hope they get their punishment and sould be banned from submitting books. How stupid do you need to be to put a green label comic into a universal case. Someone was bound to crack one of these for CPR at some point. And CGC didnt notice? Stay strong community.
Amazing work bro
I don't know if this example applies to this scam or if it was just a CGC labeling mistake, but your video reminded me of a weird labeling situation I came across during Comic Link's auction that ran in late October through early November. After I won an auction for a CGC 9.8 Australian Price Variant of ASM 363, I downloaded a copy of the slab included with the lot post for my records. Looking at the image, I noticed the price on the cover was the typical $1.25 for a US newsstand copy instead of the $1.80 price that should've been on the cover. I missed it when I first looked at the posting and then bid on the lot because the CGC label noted that it was an Australian Price Variant. I contacted Comic Link and they voided the sale, assuming that CGC mistakenly added the wrong label. While that's likely what happened, after watching your video, I'm wondering if someone did switch labels with a US newsstand copy. Naturally, it would make the book with a price variant label more attractive and expensive than a normal newsstand edition.
I just looked up the book again, which was last sold in May 2021 for $514. The CGC certification page, which, from what I can remember investigating after I had won the lot, had it listed as an Australian Price Variant. Now, it's listed just as a newsstand edition with screenshots of the correct Newsstand label. So, I'm guessing it likely was a CGC mistake and the seller sent it in for a reholder after I alerted CL of the mistake. But it made me wonder then and still makes me wonder now, how the seller, who paid a premium and had the book for two years, wasn't aware of the mistake when he/she put it up for auction. Or maybe the person did know and tried to pass it on to someone else and in hopes of recouping some of the money lost.
I wanted to know what he bought the qualified 8.5 hulk 181 book for and didn't hear the answer.
Brilliant detective work!
Great work! I'll be curious to see if this changes how CGC and other grading companies do business. I suppose it really all depends on whether or not this results in any legal action or reduced submissions. I hope the community can keep pressure on the grading companies until a solution is created. There may be hundreds of tampered slabs out in the wild now, and if you can't trust a slabbed book what's the point?
I’m wondering if they are just swapping labels not the books themselves
They might be. We don’t know exactly how they’re doing it
I think this could possibly be going with a worker(s) in CGC.
I've been telling Fan's the corruption of those Grading companies!! Instead of grading an item for what it is! thay grad it for what it's worth!! For me, their money hungry assholes!! Without Honor!!🤔😜👍 And I'll find a business that will grad an item without prejudice.And they're out there!!!🤗👍
CGC needs to address this. They have gone off a cliff in every aspect in recent years, this is just the cherry on top. Unreal....
Cases need to be tamper proof. Once popped open you can tell it’s been cracked.
Damn this is absolutely crazy. There was someone who bought a hulk 181 that brys comics covered where the buyer cracked it out and had inserts missing and the seller fully refunded them having not known this was the case. If you could find that qualified grade of the same book and actually see when that book sold and ask the previous seller their history with the book, you could then prove whether they’re the one trying to scam! Thanks for the info
Wouldn’t it be easier to switch the labels as opposed to switching the books ? Just wondering
It all depends how they figured out how to open the case. We are just speculating how they’re resubmitting the books.
You think this is new. Been going on for years. But great to call it out. Now even CGC is not a guarantee.
Um.. this is worrying, but cgc is meant to even check books that are being recased. I had an Ironman 55 and even one of a friends books dropped a grade when just recasing.
If this can slip through, it shows they are not checking all or it is an inside job
That seller is gone from E-Bay. I wonder if they closed their account or if E-Bay did? Also, the seller tried selling under an alternate name, but that is closed down as well.