This will be a hard listen for people and do you know why ? It’s all true. Social media , group chats and a BETA mentality is what really ruins Airsoft as a whole but Milsims 1000% are not what they advertise now . If you can order take aways, down tools at 2200 , decline taskings, sleep whenever you like, dictate to organisers or come away from 12/24/36 hr events without a speck of dirt on you cos you’ve been chilling in a building pulling each other off while posing for pictures for your bought IG following then I repeat ‘ ITS NOT A FUKN MILSIM ‘ regardless of the organisers name or hype. More of the same please keep doing Beelzebub’s work 👊🏻
Well, There isn't much to say to respond to that .. If you would like a weekly rant slot on the channel Mr Winks .. Please let us know .. I mean ... Your on the money ..
@@RandomTrashy Facts are facts bro, I would but the channel would be demonetised and you’d be banned from any social media platforms for life 😂 Then how would people hijack your ideas 🤷🏻♂️😘😘
The biggest problem is the kind of players that came onto "milsim" like 5-6 year ago. The mentality change that these ppl brought fucked a lot up. I almost had fights cause they got blasted full auto in 1 doorway. I was 30m away and not in the doorway. Mistreating medic rules and then they even go off to an organisation that we were cheating etc etc. It's this kind of stuff that destroys the whole scene
Also it's organisations itself. Other exampl, We were defending a building and keeping them off with ease. But we could only shoot single from buildings. Then we were covering a hot corner with 2 ppl on single ofcourse. They then get a marshall. Marshall stand at the corner and from the bb's incomming he said we were full auto shooting and had to clear the building. Not even asking us anything. Our guns were at that time even single shot locked......... So it's not only the ppl.
Grey slate 2 was my first "milsim" which was 24hrs of stag 😅 few years later I finally hit my first stirling were I was told no pyro after 8pm and game over at 10pm to 6am due to the site restrictions. I have always wanted what you described the Valley was and CAG. But like you said to many people have the gear but no idea. To many people just want to chill and take pics for the gram or just sleep! I guess the only way milsims as they should be will return is if ita an invite only event or players are vouched for so everyone attending are prepared and know what to expect. Think it was mr Jamie brit who said the events he attened in pasta land they check your kit before entering and if its not up to scratch you told to go home... thats what we need. Not heres a list of kit you will need ... oh wait you haven't got it all oh well carry on. Everytime I see milsim in the event details my brain scrubs the mil and replaces it with battle becasue thats all it is. Rant over 😅
What constitutes "milsim" in the US context has also evolved over the years. Prior to MSW, "milsim" was basically any large event on a unique AO with significant pre-event organization and planning. In the 2000-teens a bunch of companies could plausible be described as offering this sort of event. Beyond Operation Eastwind, MSW was the first company to put together long (40 hr) non-stop events where the physical, but non-direct action-y, stuff like rucking, bivouac-ing outdoors in potentially inclement weather, etc was a primary component of the event. Today "milsim" in the US is sort of synonymous with the event having a moderately difficult physical component where endurance is important and MSW is really the only company to offer that. Most everyone else just does "scenario" or "big game" type of events based around non-stop direct action with breaks for lunches and dinners built in. Obviously nothing wrong with those sort of events - grilling out at a campsite or having a beer back at the hotel is great fun - but they are catering to a different audience. MSW is fortunate to have a real community built around it with "culture groups" like RR, BDG, TFM, Grommets, etc that are composed of people who explicitly want to maintain the high standards of the event.
I think it comes down to money sadly. The amount of 'milsim'events I go to that's are just basically long skirmish days (no real leadership, no real cohesion, decends into a full auto m4 mess, hit taking becomes crap, objective becomes irrelevant and its.about kill death ratio) but these events are full of people which is the real goal...making a profit. True milsim events dont attract too many people.because they dont want to get cold and not sleep. We need another level brought into airsoft. Only attracting more hardcore players
Will I completely agree, I think SEO are leading here with their events altho ... As they have stated ... The audience just isn't there. Also take our gameplay from their event.. Great structure.. but .. 30 players sat round fires at 11/12pm. That got very quickly slaughtered .. then some further events transpired and it caused a RTB.
I don't know if millsim as an event is dead, but here in the states I think it's in a process of rebuilding and reshaping itself. The recent interest by real steel RUclips channels is attracting a new base of players though I suspect it's going to make the events a bit more hardcore and stressful as opposed to people having a good time. We will see. Keep up the good work.
The issue is, that people will spend thousands trying to look like a modern operator, and spend thousands tricking out their guns to the max whilst forgetting the basic principles of soldiering. You don’t need real world experience or training to understand the fundamentals as there is unlimited information online. But people won’t invest in a good Bergen, sleeping system, cooking systems, food, wont cam themselves out, they don’t have the basic kit you would need to sustain yourself for a full 24/36/48 hour period. Social media is to blame for this to an extent, because people think if they’re laden in Gucci kit they can slap a phot on insta for ‘likes’ and get the best taskings. Then it’s back to base for more photos, tea and biscuits and a nice night sleep without putting any real work in.
I feel you mate. In my experience, I feel like milsim really changed over the years. In the country where I come from (Russia) milsim in airsoft is closely related to historical reenactment and when someone here is talking about either of these things, the chances are that they mean both at the same time. Back in 2013 we've used to have milsim events that were attended by 200-300 people (that's an average number of people for an event that took place quite far away from Moscow). They were massive, the events were pretty accurate from the historical point of view and it didn't feel like a cash grab. We used to have reenactment teams that had 70-100 similarly dressed people in them, people were building custom vehicles specifically for those games (i.e. HUMVEEs etc). Nowadays those events barely hit 150 attendees mark, and we no longer have reenactment teams that big. In my case, I guess it all comes to money. Our national currency hit the deck, our government made some poor political decisions and most importantly, milsim lost its identity.
That’s such a shame, I remember watching some of the early Russian milsims. As you say with all sorts of vehicles and huge squads. It’s seems to be a bit of a dying sport / hobby
I got back into Airsoft 2 years ago to supplement real steel training and forgot how much fun I was having. Went to a few large events last year and going to more this year.
"i hate when old people bitch about how things changed" yeah, but this does not apply equally to everything. you're 100% in the right to talk about this kind of thing. old people are not a philosophically consistent group of people who are always talking about a REAL gradual degradation of whatever they're talking about.
Interested to watch this and see what is said, got me wondering if I have the wrong idea about what "Milsim" is in this country. I'm still not sure where I would fit within the community, for me I want something more organised and that goes on longer. But then at the same time, I know that being on stag throughout the night etc is too much for me.
It seems to you Tim the “What is milsim” question is a big one. I wish there was more of a market for whatever “it is”. The idea is certainly still appealing in principle to many. For what it’s worth I thought I’d share my opinion on what a milsim is to me as I do enjoy a good airsoft chat. Personally I turn up to a milsim - battlesim - skirmish with the same idea everytime - how can I shoot as many people as possible in the short time that I have. Superficial perhaps but this is honestly what it’s about for me. However I do prefer milsims as I don’t need to worry about someone blowing a whistle or saying I’m not allowed in that area of the map. Perhaps I’m an outsider then in terms of what I get out of a milsim. I think the actual idea of military simulation can become a bit cringe at times - no explanation needed… but I often do find my self fully immersed and enjoying myself more because of it. In terms of pushing myself at event, that’s really down to me. I always like a long long flank way out of the way of the main battle and then play sneaky sneaky behind lines. This is why milsims are great for me as normally they are bigger maps. I give my self my own taskings and this pushes me physically. If commanders want me to do some reconnaissance mission I’ll happily do it and play along though. I’m there to play at their event and I can’t always do exactly what I want.
@@RandomTrashy depends on the definition obviously but I’ve been to SEO events at bush valley and imperium, longmoore, reforger milsim, November foxtrot at apoc - these are 3 day events, Octo 8. never done a Stirling or defiant event though. The problem with those events is that they are quite restrictive on how I like to play. Running free into the wild is not always possible because of taskings ect…might give it a go though.
A good and valid rant Tim! I think many comments on here also hit the ail on the head, it's about money and playing to the market. I'm currently living and working in Spain and the milsim market here I varied and generally pretty good. Its organised by teams as a hobby and for fun, rather than as a business. I've done patrol competition type events, larger force on force events with a town in the AO and smaller more battlesim one day events. All have good tasks, are well organised and are great fun! I hope the UK scene picks up again, keep up the good work
I get you. Gimme more of that grind. I wanna push myself harder and play at that higher level. Ive been trying to convince some of my lads to get to a Sterling event. but I suspect they are more comfy doing battsims. Hence I'm gonna be doing Op solomon at the end of the month... On my own.
Genuinely people don't want hard routine graft events. The only way to approach anything like that is to know you will make no money and accept only 30 people might want to do it. It's a tough one, punters will always chose an Urban Op over anything else.
SEO team very keen to hear your thoughts .. I think from my experience you guys are the furthest forward in leading with innovation and trying to push the standards back up ( This is from my view ( Tim ) After attending many events ) .. EOD, CAS, Comms & Intel, Structure and Planning < All things I have experienced at SEO and LOVED ! You are right in saying about peoples standards.. The pool for people who really want to push themselves is very small and dose not equate enough people to make events profitable.
@@RandomTrashy bringing Sam and Liam onboard has changed the game for us and is the platform we need to be closer to what we want. From a personal point of view as a punter my favourite 2 events of all time (both Stirling) I hated during the Op, it was hard and I hurt and ached and was tired. But come Monday morning I realised they were amazing. The enjoyment wasn't from how many kills I had or any of that shit, it was from pushing to my limit and then a bit further still.
Yeah pretty much same here that type of oldschool milsim was pretty much dying out when I was starting it didn't happen overnight but since I first played like 11-12 years ago its been ages, now its pretty much speedsoft and skirmishes full of rentals, haven't had any wish to go to anything in years even before you know the thing :)
The thing takes up too much time anyway .. LOL ! But on a serious note it seems like there is a declining level of expectations from providers and players..
Fair points made. I think everyone wants something different from airsoft events now. Personally I like competitive airsoft where either side can win and its about points based objectives with a good comand structure. Games that follow a story and each group has tasks to do but there isnt really a clear winner etc, doesnt excite me. Not sure what the milsim west and American milsim events category they fall into. But hopefully you get to see some events that excite you happen in the future.
Me too Bry ! And I'm not saying there is only one pure airsoft there is something for everyone. but I wish there were some more immersive experiences out there for people .. who what that sort of thing
My local sight is considering adding a dedicated team for the more casual guys who don’t have all the kit or the right ubacs where they’re “the locals” and “guns for hire” you pay them some form of in game currency for their services otherwise they’re out for themselves
@@RandomTrashy the casual slower players who don’t push themselves etc will have their own spot in the milsim/battlesim event they do each year, they can participate in a way to enhance everyone’s experience instead of detracting
I feel like the issue is we don't really have a rallying core community for people that are really more into milsim. You have to have a group that event organizers can communicate with and get feedback from to get regular events out of fields. My local fields here in Oregon in the USA only do "milsim light" really meaning there are objectives and hardcore people are invited to participate. But its still just "walk back 50 meters and respawn" so it ends up pretty much just being paintball in multicam drag lol. Although the issue is also that a lot of the fields are smaller and wouldnt be as accommodating to a true milsim op.
@@RandomTrashy I play with an all metal m4 and metal midcaps only + ceramic plates in my carrier also(I get my ass kicked a lot but I enjoy the challenge)
I remember the first (and only time sadly) playing at the Valley and thinking how amazing it was and then the reality of just how hard it was from a terrain/weather pov. Epic fun though and if I could I’d drop what I’m doing and get out there right now if I could. Couldn’t give a crap about IG photos (although pics to remember events is always a good thing), I just want some escapism from the 9-5 grind
Okto events are themed and great fun to do... true not a milsim but I seem to remember that they advertise as a filmsim/battlesim. No organised lunch break but they do stop at 1700. I think its great for newer people to events longer than a day skirmish, and also for people like me who have done Regular service and carry injury from that service, but still.want to be with the lads.... planning, map reading etc. Okto are a big player in the industry
Looks like they changed things up since I last heard about them. From the team I know that attended an event there the above feedback was what I was told, so only going on what I was told. What's a filmsim ? Do they define that ? Sorry Chris I'm not shooting the messenger :) . I cant say I agree they are a big player. I would say most of my audience will have heard of them for the first time on this video. Fingers crossed they continue to improve let's hope they move on from day games. Thanks for your comment !
Mate I get what you are saying but the O8 website paints a very different view for one they call them selfs ( OktoEight Milsim - their description - Total immersion is the watchword and Okto Eight Milsim engage their clients months before the action begins, with news reports and intelligence, building up to an action-packed climax. Join in now, leave your day job and stress behind and become somebody else for a while. Take on the mantle of a money-hungry private contractor, indigenous forces or a NATO special forces operative. This is a sixteen hour, weekend Milsim consisting of two eight-hour, daylight-based combat patrols where you will be immersed in our "Bad To The Bone" story-line, involved in the fight between good and evil at a number of locations. Despite the 8-hour game period each day, this is not a skirmish and full milsim rules will apply. Participation requires involvement in the story and the studying of various forms of intel, particularly the SF role. With around three events per year, the next game is never far away... _ ) So looks like my initial statement is correct ?
100% on point. Too much Insta flex these days in front of garden fences and not actually thinking about how/why kit is used and then taking it to the field and putting it through its paces. Battle Sims are normally big skirmish day circle jerks for those who like to believe it’s a milsim. Annoyingly those events have potential as a gateway for players wanting to do true milsim events but aren’t quite there yet but they’re not used effectively by the majority of organisers it seems. Just more concerned about taking the money sadly. Tier One back in the day (I know the history etc) were good and the Rolling Thunder event was epic. Helo’s in at dawn onto the objective to grab the HVT then rolling firefights through the next 24 hours with little sleep, constantly on the go and the firefight from 0300 Sunday morning to sunrise was epic. That’s definitely what the scene needs to get back to but not sure the younger generation has the balls for it, or not yet anyway.
This is very true " Battle Sims are normally big skirmish day circle jerks for those who like to believe it’s a milsim." .... Shorty .. This is exactly my view too. Let's dig up the Tier One guys...
I’ll defend battlesims here and say that the the last 6 or so battlesims I’ve played have been way more than “just a long skirmish” and I’d go as far as to say it’s the “milsim” crowd who bring it down by not taking it seriously because it’s not “milsim”. You can’t come to an event, not take it seriously and then complain it’s not serious enough.
@@matthewspencer2837 What are the 6 events you have been too ? Can you pass a link to them please. If they are what you would class as a Milsim I'm sure many people will be interested ! Thanks
@@RandomTrashy was before we knew Lew but it wasn't him either. Was some guy from a team called wasp who had his bergan carried for him, and almost died from dehydration back at the farm house 🤣🤣
I can’t comment on expeirence or experience as I haven’t attended a milsim event, as I don’t consider myself ready. However, the general point and the aspects of commentary I think hold pretty true. The answer might be a category system for how ‘hardcore’ or ‘immersive’ the event is trying to be so expectations can be set with what the organisers and the other players will be expected and expected of them and for me the key point here is motivation and self discipline, do more than is expected of you - work for the team. As for the wider consideration of impact of social media and how it plays a part, I think that this is refelction of society, culture and attitudes of today - the instant hit, get a like/reaction and feel accepted/affirmation of like minded persons via virtual social interaction and not IRL. If people want to look all Gucci and emulate true operators with all the gear, thats fine but remember not everyone can do that, or wants to. Most people play skirmish for fun, and a shared experience of a more active online experience, myself included. But the reality of the gear you have will have little effect on how ‘good’ your gameplay is around tactical awareness, what you really need to carry, and how you want to improve - just remember that other may be in it for other reasons, but also want to enjoy the day. And I this is where the more toxic and unrealistic part of social media doesn’t work, would you say and do the things online to that persons face? Its easy to be a keyboard warrior, but not so easy to work in a team IRL. I also wonder that with the current trend of Virture Signalling/Woke/SJW in social media and the wider press - when those people look back at what they did 20 - 30 years later on TikTok, insta, YT etc hw they will feel about themselves then.
We don't necessarily have this problem in the US. Milsim is Milsim but some events the missions change. Some events missions are capturing a criminal and some are straight up missions similar to real life missions that really happened. However I don't think I have played in a Milsim event where I actually had cell phone service. Here in the US, Milsims are usually in the middle of nowhere...
Milsim events are generally pretty big. Even local events can be 200+ depending upon where you live. There's also events for speedsoft that are huge too. Hopefully you guys from the UK as well as other places can visit and attend a Milsim here someday! You guys would love it! 😂😂😂
I think its really hard as a newer player in this realm to find/get invited to proper events. Everything that is openplay is pretty light and the rest is normally invite only where there is no way you will ever get invited (dutch player)
The hardcore milsim scene is pretty closed off here, that's true. There are a few more open events you can go to where the milsim teams will also show up. Some are more tacsim classed, some are pretty high paced 24hr events. Show up to a few of those with the right attitude and mindset, talk to people about what you'd like to do and I am sure you would get an invite sooner or later.
Thanks Kyle, I'm super interested in the Dutch scene and It's a very short trip for me. Here the invite only events tend to be to eliminate the expectations of players outside the group. For example an invite only event that happened here a few years back paused mid day to take a photoshoot. Again this was agreed with all sides and to stop people being upset by that they kept the doors closed pretty tight. I think invite only can be great to monitor the level of player .. Same time it can create a closed group of people who like a low standard of exertion. Kyle whats the Dutch scene like ??
@@RandomTrashy yeah m8 that's hitting the spot. Don't forgot the ppl instead of ppl going off cause they get hit a lot or can't win a fight and go to organisation.....
Really enjoy your rant videos, I think your approach and argument is fair, milsim seems to be watered down in the UK. I was always under the impression the Sterling stuff was supposed to be “proper milsim” but from this I gather you think otherwise ?
This must be a problem specific to the UK . Here in the United States 40 hour milsim events are the top seller. Sounds like MilSim West needs to go to the UK
The only way the hobby will improve is people with the right mindset come together and keep going. The more of us have a bad day, or lose faith because we've not played in a while, the more downhill it will go. Keep the positive mental attitude, keep the hobby alive and the ones who want the same as you will follow you.
At my local site it very apparent the divide between milsim and speedsoft so speedsofter wanted to play a game of speedsofter Vs milsim players needless to say milsim players win most of the time as speedsofters aren't big on using cover
100% agree, CAG was the peak for UK 'milsim' and it's a shame that so many wet blankets turned up to the later events and effectively ruined it. Eagle Fury was the single best weekender I have ever been to. Current organisers don't know what they're offering though, they don't know HOW to do a CAG style event because they don't have the corporate knowledge. Smudge and co knew how to put on a cracking weekend because it was just condensing all the fun bits of 6 weeks on SPTA into 36-48 hours and they had the skills to make it actually happen and be authentic. Stirling run a good themed skirmish these days, but the bar has absolutely dropped with those guys. If an organiser started running good hard events with proper tasking and opfor that don't fuck off for a BBQ at 7pm I'd get my kit out of the attic in a heartbeat. But like you I can't see it happening any time soon.
This video made me laugh right. Because I totally get what you are saying. I’ve never done milsim. Been thinking of getting a full build from camoraids for my tm416 and I asked in the UKAC discord if anyone had had work done by them, because heresy group highly recommended. All I got was sarky comments and passive aggressive replies about how you guys are just milsim elitists that shit on everyone else, and that camoraids is a predatory company trying to rip people off. And I was apparently in the “camoraids defence force” for saying that’s unfair despite the fact I’ve literally never been to the shop or bought from them before. I was just like ffs let people enjoy what they want, if you like this kind of stuff good on you, if you don’t then there’s something for everyone. Same with guns. But yeah I just got told that I would be an idiot if I spent a grand on upgrading my TM. I just got a promotion, I want to treat myself, if it’s actually worth doing and is reliable I will. But people were just like don’t bother it will just break after a year. Certain type of person in that chat that really bugged me because they are exactly the thing they accuse others of. It’s like some kind of weird reverse snobbery against people who can afford better stuff and or want to go to more elite events.
Nothing good comes from closed communities ! Also never seek validation from people who only shitpost.. I've run my Scar L for 4 years in the pissing rain, freezing cold and dusty hot quarry. Never skipped a beat. If you want to treat yourself you fucking do it! * congrats on the promo !
An events organiser / Airsoft Club near me calls their events a Combat Airsoft event... so not a skirmish and not a mil sim but an objectives based event more accessible to everyone. If its about running a business and there are more customers who want to do this than those who want to sleep in the rain then the latter will not be offered as readily?
Chief if you ever need someone to run the enemy side of things I’ve got your back… I’ll be openly honest and didn’t like you both thinking you was overly arrogant (been ex forces and thinking this is just airsoft) but after hearing what you’ve had to say on this (a little later then most) if you run the “nato” side I could quietly easily help (with an another) run the enemy side, which I know prefer!!
Straight facts………… can someone pls sort a proper milsim in the Uk please. If you need to ask players/ customers for ideas. Your not looking like you don’t know what your doing, it’s for the customers that want and need to get what they play for. RUCKAS was hard! The Fucking rocks lol was sick though !!!!
This will be a hard listen for people and do you know why ? It’s all true.
Social media , group chats and a BETA mentality is what really ruins Airsoft as a whole but Milsims 1000% are not what they advertise now . If you can order take aways, down tools at 2200 , decline taskings, sleep whenever you like, dictate to organisers or come away from 12/24/36 hr events without a speck of dirt on you cos you’ve been chilling in a building pulling each other off while posing for pictures for your bought IG following then I repeat ‘ ITS NOT A FUKN MILSIM ‘ regardless of the organisers name or hype.
More of the same please keep doing Beelzebub’s work 👊🏻
Well, There isn't much to say to respond to that .. If you would like a weekly rant slot on the channel Mr Winks .. Please let us know .. I mean ... Your on the money ..
@@RandomTrashy Facts are facts bro, I would but the channel would be demonetised and you’d be banned from any social media platforms for life 😂
Then how would people hijack your ideas 🤷🏻♂️😘😘
The biggest problem is the kind of players that came onto "milsim" like 5-6 year ago. The mentality change that these ppl brought fucked a lot up. I almost had fights cause they got blasted full auto in 1 doorway. I was 30m away and not in the doorway. Mistreating medic rules and then they even go off to an organisation that we were cheating etc etc. It's this kind of stuff that destroys the whole scene
Also it's organisations itself. Other exampl, We were defending a building and keeping them off with ease. But we could only shoot single from buildings. Then we were covering a hot corner with 2 ppl on single ofcourse. They then get a marshall. Marshall stand at the corner and from the bb's incomming he said we were full auto shooting and had to clear the building. Not even asking us anything. Our guns were at that time even single shot locked......... So it's not only the ppl.
Grey slate 2 was my first "milsim" which was 24hrs of stag 😅 few years later I finally hit my first stirling were I was told no pyro after 8pm and game over at 10pm to 6am due to the site restrictions. I have always wanted what you described the Valley was and CAG. But like you said to many people have the gear but no idea. To many people just want to chill and take pics for the gram or just sleep! I guess the only way milsims as they should be will return is if ita an invite only event or players are vouched for so everyone attending are prepared and know what to expect. Think it was mr Jamie brit who said the events he attened in pasta land they check your kit before entering and if its not up to scratch you told to go home... thats what we need. Not heres a list of kit you will need ... oh wait you haven't got it all oh well carry on. Everytime I see milsim in the event details my brain scrubs the mil and replaces it with battle becasue thats all it is. Rant over 😅
What constitutes "milsim" in the US context has also evolved over the years. Prior to MSW, "milsim" was basically any large event on a unique AO with significant pre-event organization and planning. In the 2000-teens a bunch of companies could plausible be described as offering this sort of event. Beyond Operation Eastwind, MSW was the first company to put together long (40 hr) non-stop events where the physical, but non-direct action-y, stuff like rucking, bivouac-ing outdoors in potentially inclement weather, etc was a primary component of the event. Today "milsim" in the US is sort of synonymous with the event having a moderately difficult physical component where endurance is important and MSW is really the only company to offer that. Most everyone else just does "scenario" or "big game" type of events based around non-stop direct action with breaks for lunches and dinners built in. Obviously nothing wrong with those sort of events - grilling out at a campsite or having a beer back at the hotel is great fun - but they are catering to a different audience. MSW is fortunate to have a real community built around it with "culture groups" like RR, BDG, TFM, Grommets, etc that are composed of people who explicitly want to maintain the high standards of the event.
I think it comes down to money sadly.
The amount of 'milsim'events I go to that's are just basically long skirmish days (no real leadership, no real cohesion, decends into a full auto m4 mess, hit taking becomes crap, objective becomes irrelevant and its.about kill death ratio) but these events are full of people which is the real goal...making a profit.
True milsim events dont attract too many people.because they dont want to get cold and not sleep.
We need another level brought into airsoft. Only attracting more hardcore players
Will I completely agree, I think SEO are leading here with their events altho ... As they have stated ... The audience just isn't there. Also take our gameplay from their event.. Great structure.. but .. 30 players sat round fires at 11/12pm. That got very quickly slaughtered .. then some further events transpired and it caused a RTB.
I don't know if millsim as an event is dead, but here in the states I think it's in a process of rebuilding and reshaping itself. The recent interest by real steel RUclips channels is attracting a new base of players though I suspect it's going to make the events a bit more hardcore and stressful as opposed to people having a good time.
We will see. Keep up the good work.
The issue is, that people will spend thousands trying to look like a modern operator, and spend thousands tricking out their guns to the max whilst forgetting the basic principles of soldiering.
You don’t need real world experience or training to understand the fundamentals as there is unlimited information online.
But people won’t invest in a good Bergen, sleeping system, cooking systems, food, wont cam themselves out, they don’t have the basic kit you would need to sustain yourself for a full 24/36/48 hour period.
Social media is to blame for this to an extent, because people think if they’re laden in Gucci kit they can slap a phot on insta for ‘likes’ and get the best taskings. Then it’s back to base for more photos, tea and biscuits and a nice night sleep without putting any real work in.
I feel you mate. In my experience, I feel like milsim really changed over the years. In the country where I come from (Russia) milsim in airsoft is closely related to historical reenactment and when someone here is talking about either of these things, the chances are that they mean both at the same time. Back in 2013 we've used to have milsim events that were attended by 200-300 people (that's an average number of people for an event that took place quite far away from Moscow). They were massive, the events were pretty accurate from the historical point of view and it didn't feel like a cash grab. We used to have reenactment teams that had 70-100 similarly dressed people in them, people were building custom vehicles specifically for those games (i.e. HUMVEEs etc). Nowadays those events barely hit 150 attendees mark, and we no longer have reenactment teams that big. In my case, I guess it all comes to money. Our national currency hit the deck, our government made some poor political decisions and most importantly, milsim lost its identity.
That’s such a shame, I remember watching some of the early Russian milsims. As you say with all sorts of vehicles and huge squads. It’s seems to be a bit of a dying sport / hobby
I just signed up for my first Milsim West. Talking to the event organizers for that it sounds a lot like the “classic milsims style”.
Yea, I think Lucas from trex put a huge spotlight on them and they seem to be heading to a much better direction ! I may have to take a trip over !!
I got back into Airsoft 2 years ago to supplement real steel training and forgot how much fun I was having. Went to a few large events last year and going to more this year.
"i hate when old people bitch about how things changed"
yeah, but this does not apply equally to everything. you're 100% in the right to talk about this kind of thing. old people are not a philosophically consistent group of people who are always talking about a REAL gradual degradation of whatever they're talking about.
Well, I gave it my honest feedback and I can do much more than that !
Interested to watch this and see what is said, got me wondering if I have the wrong idea about what "Milsim" is in this country.
I'm still not sure where I would fit within the community, for me I want something more organised and that goes on longer. But then at the same time, I know that being on stag throughout the night etc is too much for me.
It seems to you Tim the “What is milsim” question is a big one. I wish there was more of a market for whatever “it is”. The idea is certainly still appealing in principle to many.
For what it’s worth I thought I’d share my opinion on what a milsim is to me as I do enjoy a good airsoft chat. Personally I turn up to a milsim - battlesim - skirmish with the same idea everytime - how can I shoot as many people as possible in the short time that I have. Superficial perhaps but this is honestly what it’s about for me.
However I do prefer milsims as I don’t need to worry about someone blowing a whistle or saying I’m not allowed in that area of the map. Perhaps I’m an outsider then in terms of what I get out of a milsim.
I think the actual idea of military simulation can become a bit cringe at times - no explanation needed… but I often do find my self fully immersed and enjoying myself more because of it. In terms of pushing myself at event, that’s really down to me. I always like a long long flank way out of the way of the main battle and then play sneaky sneaky behind lines. This is why milsims are great for me as normally they are bigger maps. I give my self my own taskings and this pushes me physically. If commanders want me to do some reconnaissance mission I’ll happily do it and play along though. I’m there to play at their event and I can’t always do exactly what I want.
Can I ask where you have attended a Milsim / Battlesim as we are hunting for them .. ? Like your thoughts and approach dude !
@@RandomTrashy depends on the definition obviously but I’ve been to SEO events at bush valley and imperium, longmoore, reforger milsim, November foxtrot at apoc - these are 3 day events, Octo 8. never done a Stirling or defiant event though. The problem with those events is that they are quite restrictive on how I like to play. Running free into the wild is not always possible because of taskings ect…might give it a go though.
A good and valid rant Tim! I think many comments on here also hit the ail on the head, it's about money and playing to the market. I'm currently living and working in Spain and the milsim market here I varied and generally pretty good. Its organised by teams as a hobby and for fun, rather than as a business. I've done patrol competition type events, larger force on force events with a town in the AO and smaller more battlesim one day events. All have good tasks, are well organised and are great fun! I hope the UK scene picks up again, keep up the good work
I get you. Gimme more of that grind. I wanna push myself harder and play at that higher level. Ive been trying to convince some of my lads to get to a Sterling event. but I suspect they are more comfy doing battsims. Hence I'm gonna be doing Op solomon at the end of the month... On my own.
Genuinely people don't want hard routine graft events. The only way to approach anything like that is to know you will make no money and accept only 30 people might want to do it. It's a tough one, punters will always chose an Urban Op over anything else.
SEO team very keen to hear your thoughts .. I think from my experience you guys are the furthest forward in leading with innovation and trying to push the standards back up ( This is from my view ( Tim ) After attending many events ) .. EOD, CAS, Comms & Intel, Structure and Planning < All things I have experienced at SEO and LOVED ! You are right in saying about peoples standards.. The pool for people who really want to push themselves is very small and dose not equate enough people to make events profitable.
@@RandomTrashy bringing Sam and Liam onboard has changed the game for us and is the platform we need to be closer to what we want.
From a personal point of view as a punter my favourite 2 events of all time (both Stirling) I hated during the Op, it was hard and I hurt and ached and was tired. But come Monday morning I realised they were amazing. The enjoyment wasn't from how many kills I had or any of that shit, it was from pushing to my limit and then a bit further still.
Yeah pretty much same here that type of oldschool milsim was pretty much dying out when I was starting it didn't happen overnight but since I first played like 11-12 years ago its been ages, now its pretty much speedsoft and skirmishes full of rentals, haven't had any wish to go to anything in years even before you know the thing :)
The thing takes up too much time anyway .. LOL ! But on a serious note it seems like there is a declining level of expectations from providers and players..
Fair points made. I think everyone wants something different from airsoft events now. Personally I like competitive airsoft where either side can win and its about points based objectives with a good comand structure. Games that follow a story and each group has tasks to do but there isnt really a clear winner etc, doesnt excite me. Not sure what the milsim west and American milsim events category they fall into. But hopefully you get to see some events that excite you happen in the future.
Me too Bry ! And I'm not saying there is only one pure airsoft there is something for everyone. but I wish there were some more immersive experiences out there for people .. who what that sort of thing
My local sight is considering adding a dedicated team for the more casual guys who don’t have all the kit or the right ubacs where they’re “the locals” and “guns for hire” you pay them some form of in game currency for their services otherwise they’re out for themselves
I don't understand how this is relative ?
@@RandomTrashy the casual slower players who don’t push themselves etc will have their own spot in the milsim/battlesim event they do each year, they can participate in a way to enhance everyone’s experience instead of detracting
I feel like the issue is we don't really have a rallying core community for people that are really more into milsim. You have to have a group that event organizers can communicate with and get feedback from to get regular events out of fields.
My local fields here in Oregon in the USA only do "milsim light" really meaning there are objectives and hardcore people are invited to participate. But its still just "walk back 50 meters and respawn" so it ends up pretty much just being paintball in multicam drag lol. Although the issue is also that a lot of the fields are smaller and wouldnt be as accommodating to a true milsim op.
Whats your thoughts on the bigger events like milsim west ?
@@RandomTrashy Its my primary interest in airsoft. I love sleeping on rocks for fun lol.
@@RandomTrashy I play with an all metal m4 and metal midcaps only + ceramic plates in my carrier also(I get my ass kicked a lot but I enjoy the challenge)
I remember the first (and only time sadly) playing at the Valley and thinking how amazing it was and then the reality of just how hard it was from a terrain/weather pov. Epic fun though and if I could I’d drop what I’m doing and get out there right now if I could. Couldn’t give a crap about IG photos (although pics to remember events is always a good thing), I just want some escapism from the 9-5 grind
With you there dude ! Walking across the crunching and frozen grass to the first of 100's of fence crossings ! ...
@@RandomTrashy hahah the never ending fences 🤣 Epic firefights there though to make up for the worlds supply of groin height barbed wire
Challenge… not a call out but can you and rich get a proper milsim organised ? Friends and supporters would enjoy it and if can help sure we can 💪🏻
I think this is very true, We clearly need to define what Milsim is so everyone's expectations are correctly set.
Okto events are themed and great fun to do... true not a milsim but I seem to remember that they advertise as a filmsim/battlesim. No organised lunch break but they do stop at 1700. I think its great for newer people to events longer than a day skirmish, and also for people like me who have done Regular service and carry injury from that service, but still.want to be with the lads.... planning, map reading etc. Okto are a big player in the industry
Looks like they changed things up since I last heard about them. From the team I know that attended an event there the above feedback was what I was told, so only going on what I was told. What's a filmsim ? Do they define that ? Sorry Chris I'm not shooting the messenger :) . I cant say I agree they are a big player. I would say most of my audience will have heard of them for the first time on this video. Fingers crossed they continue to improve let's hope they move on from day games. Thanks for your comment !
Mate I get what you are saying but the O8 website paints a very different view for one they call them selfs ( OktoEight Milsim - their description - Total immersion is the watchword and Okto Eight Milsim engage their clients months before the action begins, with news reports and intelligence, building up to an action-packed climax.
Join in now, leave your day job and stress behind and become somebody else for a while. Take on the mantle of a money-hungry private contractor, indigenous forces or a NATO special forces operative.
This is a sixteen hour, weekend Milsim consisting of two eight-hour, daylight-based combat patrols where you will be immersed in our "Bad To The Bone" story-line, involved in the fight between good and evil at a number of locations.
Despite the 8-hour game period each day, this is not a skirmish and full milsim rules will apply.
Participation requires involvement in the story and the studying of various forms of intel, particularly the SF role.
With around three events per year, the next game is never far away... _ ) So looks like my initial statement is correct ?
100% on point. Too much Insta flex these days in front of garden fences and not actually thinking about how/why kit is used and then taking it to the field and putting it through its paces.
Battle Sims are normally big skirmish day circle jerks for those who like to believe it’s a milsim. Annoyingly those events have potential as a gateway for players wanting to do true milsim events but aren’t quite there yet but they’re not used effectively by the majority of organisers it seems. Just more concerned about taking the money sadly.
Tier One back in the day (I know the history etc) were good and the Rolling Thunder event was epic. Helo’s in at dawn onto the objective to grab the HVT then rolling firefights through the next 24 hours with little sleep, constantly on the go and the firefight from 0300 Sunday morning to sunrise was epic.
That’s definitely what the scene needs to get back to but not sure the younger generation has the balls for it, or not yet anyway.
This is very true " Battle Sims are normally big skirmish day circle jerks for those who like to believe it’s a milsim." .... Shorty .. This is exactly my view too. Let's dig up the Tier One guys...
@@RandomTrashy would be good to get that band back together! Time for a UK Milsim reboot
I’ll defend battlesims here and say that the the last 6 or so battlesims I’ve played have been way more than “just a long skirmish” and I’d go as far as to say it’s the “milsim” crowd who bring it down by not taking it seriously because it’s not “milsim”.
You can’t come to an event, not take it seriously and then complain it’s not serious enough.
@@matthewspencer2837 What are the 6 events you have been too ? Can you pass a link to them please. If they are what you would class as a Milsim I'm sure many people will be interested ! Thanks
Was only me and Aki at that CAG event from 67 mate, we weren't falling about all over haha
Lewis ? Or was this before he joined > I'm sure me and him ended up under NV striking the last building !
@@RandomTrashy was before we knew Lew but it wasn't him either. Was some guy from a team called wasp who had his bergan carried for him, and almost died from dehydration back at the farm house 🤣🤣
I can’t comment on expeirence or experience as I haven’t attended a milsim event, as I don’t consider myself ready. However, the general point and the aspects of commentary I think hold pretty true. The answer might be a category system for how ‘hardcore’ or ‘immersive’ the event is trying to be so expectations can be set with what the organisers and the other players will be expected and expected of them and for me the key point here is motivation and self discipline, do more than is expected of you - work for the team. As for the wider consideration of impact of social media and how it plays a part, I think that this is refelction of society, culture and attitudes of today - the instant hit, get a like/reaction and feel accepted/affirmation of like minded persons via virtual social interaction and not IRL. If people want to look all Gucci and emulate true operators with all the gear, thats fine but remember not everyone can do that, or wants to. Most people play skirmish for fun, and a shared experience of a more active online experience, myself included. But the reality of the gear you have will have little effect on how ‘good’ your gameplay is around tactical awareness, what you really need to carry, and how you want to improve - just remember that other may be in it for other reasons, but also want to enjoy the day. And I this is where the more toxic and unrealistic part of social media doesn’t work, would you say and do the things online to that persons face? Its easy to be a keyboard warrior, but not so easy to work in a team IRL. I also wonder that with the current trend of Virture Signalling/Woke/SJW in social media and the wider press - when those people look back at what they did 20 - 30 years later on TikTok, insta, YT etc hw they will feel about themselves then.
Thanks for the comment Danny and the chat. I think it's a valid point,
I play at the trees sterling airsoft only done 3 events but really enjoyed
We don't necessarily have this problem in the US. Milsim is Milsim but some events the missions change. Some events missions are capturing a criminal and some are straight up missions similar to real life missions that really happened. However I don't think I have played in a Milsim event where I actually had cell phone service. Here in the US, Milsims are usually in the middle of nowhere...
Yea I've seen that with Milsim west and other events US based, it looks incredible ! again big mix of players
Milsim events are generally pretty big. Even local events can be 200+ depending upon where you live. There's also events for speedsoft that are huge too. Hopefully you guys from the UK as well as other places can visit and attend a Milsim here someday! You guys would love it! 😂😂😂
I think its really hard as a newer player in this realm to find/get invited to proper events. Everything that is openplay is pretty light and the rest is normally invite only where there is no way you will ever get invited (dutch player)
The hardcore milsim scene is pretty closed off here, that's true. There are a few more open events you can go to where the milsim teams will also show up. Some are more tacsim classed, some are pretty high paced 24hr events. Show up to a few of those with the right attitude and mindset, talk to people about what you'd like to do and I am sure you would get an invite sooner or later.
Thanks Kyle, I'm super interested in the Dutch scene and It's a very short trip for me. Here the invite only events tend to be to eliminate the expectations of players outside the group. For example an invite only event that happened here a few years back paused mid day to take a photoshoot. Again this was agreed with all sides and to stop people being upset by that they kept the doors closed pretty tight. I think invite only can be great to monitor the level of player .. Same time it can create a closed group of people who like a low standard of exertion. Kyle whats the Dutch scene like ??
@@nilzatron Are you talking about the Dutch scene dude ? Keen to here more about that scene ? Any good companies running 24/48hr events ?
@@RandomTrashy Check your IG inbox. DM'd you some info.
Man how i miss that. Loved the 3 day games on there m8
Me too, Well I miss the structure, command, accountability, standard of opposition and last and not least immersion.
@@RandomTrashy yeah m8 that's hitting the spot. Don't forgot the ppl instead of ppl going off cause they get hit a lot or can't win a fight and go to organisation.....
Really enjoy your rant videos, I think your approach and argument is fair, milsim seems to be watered down in the UK. I was always under the impression the Sterling stuff was supposed to be “proper milsim” but from this I gather you think otherwise ?
This must be a problem specific to the UK . Here in the United States 40 hour milsim events are the top seller. Sounds like MilSim West needs to go to the UK
Is it still worth getting into? I've just purchased my gear and first gun.
That's a really tough question ! .. And funny enough one I just got asked on IG .. I really don't know !
The only way the hobby will improve is people with the right mindset come together and keep going. The more of us have a bad day, or lose faith because we've not played in a while, the more downhill it will go.
Keep the positive mental attitude, keep the hobby alive and the ones who want the same as you will follow you.
At my local site it very apparent the divide between milsim and speedsoft so speedsofter wanted to play a game of speedsofter Vs milsim players needless to say milsim players win most of the time as speedsofters aren't big on using cover
When paintball died the dregs started making there way to airsoft
100% agree, CAG was the peak for UK 'milsim' and it's a shame that so many wet blankets turned up to the later events and effectively ruined it. Eagle Fury was the single best weekender I have ever been to.
Current organisers don't know what they're offering though, they don't know HOW to do a CAG style event because they don't have the corporate knowledge. Smudge and co knew how to put on a cracking weekend because it was just condensing all the fun bits of 6 weeks on SPTA into 36-48 hours and they had the skills to make it actually happen and be authentic. Stirling run a good themed skirmish these days, but the bar has absolutely dropped with those guys.
If an organiser started running good hard events with proper tasking and opfor that don't fuck off for a BBQ at 7pm I'd get my kit out of the attic in a heartbeat. But like you I can't see it happening any time soon.
This video made me laugh right. Because I totally get what you are saying. I’ve never done milsim. Been thinking of getting a full build from camoraids for my tm416 and I asked in the UKAC discord if anyone had had work done by them, because heresy group highly recommended. All I got was sarky comments and passive aggressive replies about how you guys are just milsim elitists that shit on everyone else, and that camoraids is a predatory company trying to rip people off. And I was apparently in the “camoraids defence force” for saying that’s unfair despite the fact I’ve literally never been to the shop or bought from them before. I was just like ffs let people enjoy what they want, if you like this kind of stuff good on you, if you don’t then there’s something for everyone. Same with guns. But yeah I just got told that I would be an idiot if I spent a grand on upgrading my TM. I just got a promotion, I want to treat myself, if it’s actually worth doing and is reliable I will. But people were just like don’t bother it will just break after a year. Certain type of person in that chat that really bugged me because they are exactly the thing they accuse others of. It’s like some kind of weird reverse snobbery against people who can afford better stuff and or want to go to more elite events.
Nothing good comes from closed communities ! Also never seek validation from people who only shitpost.. I've run my Scar L for 4 years in the pissing rain, freezing cold and dusty hot quarry. Never skipped a beat. If you want to treat yourself you fucking do it! * congrats on the promo !
An events organiser / Airsoft Club near me calls their events a Combat Airsoft event... so not a skirmish and not a mil sim but an objectives based event more accessible to everyone. If its about running a business and there are more customers who want to do this than those who want to sleep in the rain then the latter will not be offered as readily?
How long are there events Scott ? I'm sure there is only a handful of people that really want a full on experience ! me being one of them
Have you or anyone ever been to a Stirling airsoft event and would you recommend?
If thats what your looking for just joint the TA
Chief if you ever need someone to run the enemy side of things I’ve got your back… I’ll be openly honest and didn’t like you both thinking you was overly arrogant (been ex forces and thinking this is just airsoft) but after hearing what you’ve had to say on this (a little later then most) if you run the “nato” side I could quietly easily help (with an another) run the enemy side, which I know prefer!!
Straight facts………… can someone pls sort a proper milsim in the Uk please. If you need to ask players/ customers for ideas. Your not looking like you don’t know what your doing, it’s for the customers that want and need to get what they play for. RUCKAS was hard! The Fucking rocks lol was sick though !!!!
The issue with this is melts, lots of people want it until it's going to happen. Then they disappear into silence. (This isn't a dog at you obviously)
You need lance corporal winks to sort this out 🤣 we need ruckas 3!!!!! Now they where the shit!!!!!!
I think he has had to many beers
What don’t you agree with John ? Keen to hear your input on the subject ?
To many beers
Never too many 😂
True LOL 😂