'End Of Review' Process HELPFUL or TOXIC? | Broken by Concept Episode179 | League of Legends Podcast
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- Опубликовано: 23 июл 2024
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00:00 - 16:10 // The BBC Movie (The Killer) + Process Of A Hitman
16:10 - 32:15 // What Makes A Mistake “End Of Review”? + Deep Dive Into This Philosophy
32:15 - 39:05 // Nathan Caught Off Guard By A Narrative On Stream
39:05 - 46:07 // SummonerSchool - Unlocked vs. Locked Camera
46:07 - 56:25 // Curtis’ Clip Corner - Not Losing Your Mind In The Chaos
56:25 - 01:03:45 // Nathan’s Mailbag - 3 Concepts From The BBC That Helped Him
01:03:45 - 01:14:30 // Nathan’s Mailbag - Connor - Reforming My Relationship With League
01:14:30 - 01:18:38 // Nathan’s Mailbag - Lina - Issues In Friendship Group Update
01:18:38 - 01:26:20 // Nathan’s Mailbag - Christopher - Old School Guy Looking To Come Back And Adapt
01:26:20 - 01:31:10 // Nathan’s Mailbag - Fae - Selfish Champs & Teammate Tilt
league podcast , mid coach , jungle coach , solo queue podcast , how to climb, season 13 climb , how to climb in season 13 , how do I improve at league , coach curtis , nathan mott
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For me, the way i contextualized "End of review" mistakes was; "Any mistake that will cause the game dynamics to shift from how they should theoretically operate in a vacuum." Basically, when you look at the game and go, "Here's my rough hypothesis on how the game should go as a whole." If a mistake completely derails that hypothesis, it is the end of review.
That's exactly how I've interpreted it. It's a decision that has such a dramatic negative shift on the game state that you start having to focus on what to do in a relatively rare vacuum. The perception that Curtis has on it where it's something that fundamentally changes your champion's identity and role is spot on.
I've always interpreted "end of review" as a gamestate so rare that its teachings aren't applicable in enough future games to warrant continuation of the review.
Locked Cam was and still IS the hardest change ive ever made in my league career, been doing it for a bit over half a year now and still sometimes struggle with consistency on ability usage because the feeling is so different. But for what i recommend:
1) First 50 games play normal or flex queue and unlock your camera completely. unbind the space bar button NO ABUSING that.
2) After 50 games you finally understand how to move your camera around and it will start to feel better from this point you need to get the reps in.
3) before each block warmup with a camera drill and that point its about getting the reps in. you can start reviewing your cam movement now too
4) Reintroduce spacebar and make sure that you go back every once in a while in the review that you DONT abuse it
It will take a LONG time but its 100% worth it :)
I'm really struggling with this, its gotten better over the last 2 months but I'm far from being able to play unlocked all game
I never played with camera locked but I do abuse space bar a lot. It is very useful IMO
@@theultimatekehop it is indeed! mainly for players that are used to locked cam since they are prone to abuse it and dont learn cam movements
Honestly there came a point where i stopped playing locked cam naturally because I just needed more information in pretty much every situation.
This part of the podcast was interesting for me because I've never played locked cam due to being a Starcraft 2 player for two years before even touching LoL.
If anyone reading this struggles with making the transition, think about your mouse sensitivity and screen drag speed. Check this out:
1) Adjust your mouse sensitivity so that it's easy to reach the edges and corners of your screen.
2) Center your screen, then make your screen drag speed fast enough that a flick of the wrist leaves your champion almost out of frame.
If your sensitivity requires a large change to do this, then I recommend easing into it by changing your mouse speed in-game in increments of 5 with a few sessions between each adjustment.
I think locked camera is a matter of capping the number of problems you are able to solve, as it caps the amount of information you can in real time. At low elo, when you wouldn't on average do anything with that information anyway, it's less of an issue.
I think it's mostly that it is hard to control the camera, in addition to playing the game, so some people prefer to just not have to deal with that.
The problem, though, is that you're essentially playing the game with an eyepatch on one eye. You cannot pan out to see if an objective like a dragon or baron has been started or how low it is, you can never see how a fight is going and if you should joing it nor not, you cannot dodge long range skillshots because you cannot even have your cam slightly ahead of your character, the list goes on and on. I'm really not a good player, but I could never play with a locked camera and not feel extremely hamstrung within 5 seconds of doing so.
thats fine, let people play the game how they want to play, as long as they acknowledge that locked screen is training wheels and is capping their potential@@garagavia
Hey guys, you answered my mail (Christopher the old school league player). I'm really glad to hear you say exactly what I realized the last week. I stopped telling myself I'm bad at the micro, and Ive been spamming Trundle, and Rammus in the jg, and im at like a 60% win rate over 40 games, and I'm B3 getting placed in Silver/Gold games so im excited and really enjoying the climb for the first time in a while! Shooting for gold in S14!
Congrats!🎉
@@chi0224 thanks!:)
let's goooo!
Do your best, win or lose
Locked Cam suggestion:
- Bind Spacebar to Focus on Self (default F1)
- Bind Focus on Ally 1,2 ,3 4 to F1,F2,F3,F4
- If you ever lose focus on yourself you can press/hold spacebar to center camera on self
- There is an option in display to show an indicator over your champ when you focus self
Looking forward to another banger episode! Listening to these is what gets me through my afternoon at work on Monday!
You guys completely missed the point of The Killer. You're talking about how he sticks to the process and that helps throughout the movie and is the reason why he succeeds, but that is actually the exact opposite of what happens in the film. The character repeats the mantras but is actively doing the OPPOSITE of what he's saying and the entire 2nd and 3rd acts of the movie happen because he's not following protocol. If anything, The Killer is actually bad at his job and should kinda be the antithesis of the podcast and is the posterchild for the "fake process". I do think there are things that we can take from the movie as it's also an examination of Fincher's own tendency to be a workaholic and incredibly and famously particular about how he works and if that is the best way to live. He's critiquing the culture of grinding and that we should not let our work, our school, our rank, our goals consume us because there is happiness outside of those things - like spending time with loved ones.
Thanks for clarifying the end-of-review concept! I've struggled with a toxic interpretation of it on and off for ages and the idea of "not wasting time in review" is very clarifying.
Im only 24 minutes into this episode, and I feel like I have some valuable insight on the end of review topic being discussed. My point of view on this topic is from the perspective on an Army leader with multiple years of experience training and exectuting plans and processes with 2 deployments in Afghanistan. In the Army, we have a tool known as the "after action review (AAR)" that we use after every single mission that we complete. When I was listening to you discuss the end of review mistakes, I started to wonder if the way you are using them is flawed and / or potentially harmful to your students. The AAR is not carried out till the mission is complete. During the mission, we are focused on our goal and objectives while also adjusting to the ever changing battlefield that has endless variables from situation to situation. There is no time or value in allowing our brains to think about if we shouldve done something different in the moment. You make a decision. see it through. continue forward repeating that cycle till the mission is complete. It is after the mission when we come together and discuss the - what went right, what went wrong, how can we fix / improve (we get into the details). I wonder if the end of review process would benefit from a more "3 strikes your live coaching ends" approach. Like war, league is chaotic, and reacting to and overcoming chaos is crucial. keeping a calm head and practicing problem solving and pulling out other tools youve kept sharppened is what gets you the victory. Maybe students and clients in league enter into a live coaching with you knowing that 3 losing incidents will end the review. But even though the review ends, you dm them time stamps for them to go back to and discover how to improve decisions, adapting, etc at those 3 different points? I'm only in Emerald on NA, put my experience in solo q is that the game is rarely ever over pre 20 minutes no matter what mistakes have happened. If I had a live coaching session end at the 12 minute mark cause i messed up my wave management to make a bad play somewhere... well I might lose confidence and focus to do whats needed to pull the game out. What if you as coaches say, for example, "we just had our first end of review mistake... our plan now has to change... what do we need to do to get back within reach of winning this game?" In those transitional moments you can start to help your students flesh out theirs mantras. Let me know what you think. - Robert
As far as I know; Curtis and Nathan dont live coach live games, they live coach using vods. You described here many of their reasons for doing it this way.
It's always interesting to see veterans comparing league and war.
Nathan has recently started live coaching. Curtis doesn't do it at all.@@asokta
@@asokta Coach N has exclusively been doing live coaching on twitch for a bit now. And I’m not saying league is war. I was explaining my perspective to reviewing decision making in high stress / emotional moments.
Hey guys, thanks for the advice on my email. To answer the questions raised, I don't have an issue being seen going into Solo Q games on my own. If anything, it might encourage my friend group to do the same. Yeah, there might be a little complaining, but the group still respect the idea of Solo Q, climbing, etc (and even if they didn't, it wouldn't stop me ultimately). I've been playing with the same friend group that got me back into the game, since at least Season 5/2015 (when I was in school), and am now 27. A lot of these issues could be considered "immature", but I didn't want that to stop me from writing in all the same!
Curtis, your point about trying to go over finer details regarding lane prio, etc only to run into more excuses is perfectly on point, these are people that are not ready to have a proper conversation, there will normally be an excuse. There's no real interest to go into reviews, and even when it's been done in the past, it's almost all focused on the wrong things. There's a lot of emotion, ego and pride, which makes it difficult, and I'm not going to push the subject with them if they don't want to have it.
The comment referring to Good Will Hunting (something I've not seen), the idea of dumbing down to fit in, is also pretty interesting. If I play Solo Q properly to improve, I'll be playing with people of my own skill level, and that on it's own is a scary idea, but this is also when I've had the most memorable games. In my friend group, I know that unless I'm inting, my own "end of review" mistakes will pale in comparison to whatever else is going on in-game, so it shields me from scrutiny. Emotionally I don't deal well with flame/negativity that comes from playing with randoms, I've considered just going on full mute previously, this is what you guys recommend so I want to give it a go (I'm assuming it's full mute of chat and pings, unless that's too much?).
I'm going to browse through your content for advice on forming my champion pool, and the specifics of the 3 block/review process, and as you guys say, "send it"!
Chat & ping mutes is totally fine. I've climbed to bottom of Master so far doing it on a case by case basis, but being very liberal about it.
E.g Someone missing pings because someone misses ward on a bush? Full mute them. Someone types too much in a way that annoys me even if it's not necessarily toxic? Full mute them.
It encourages you to gather more information for yourself to find the right play because you have less information overall (regardless of whether it's bad or good information like people pinging to start a bad/good Baron, etc.)
I'm gonna give my opinion on the topic of "giving up when the game is doomed to conserve energy for the next game" before I hear Nathan and Curtis' opinions.
I don't believe in the "never surrender" mentality, I think that's just as stupid as the "ff 15 because I'm 1 cs down" mentality that some people have. Some games are just unwinnable, especially if everyone is mentally checked out of the game. But what I do in those cases isn't to stop trying, but it's to have 0 expectations. If the game is like 2 kills to 25 at 15 minutes and every player is 2 levels and over 50 cs down and we have no win condition other than "hope that 2 enemies disconnect and anotherone's mouse stops working", my brain doesn't stop trying to win, but it stops expecting a win. So in those cases, I will take any omega coinflip play that has like a 10% chance of working out because why not? The game state doesn't change if we lose that play, we are still losing. But if we get the lucky 10% chance, we might be back in the game.
To go from locked to unlocked camera, practice controlling your camera. You can even do it in a RTS like Warcraft 3 for example, this will really improve your camera control. Be aware that there are 3 ways to control camera, you can do it with mouse wheel click and drag (MB3), you can do it by panning your mouse to the edges of the screen, or you can do it with arrow keys (although you should rebind them for ease of access). Pick a control scheme that makes sense to you, and practice controlling the camera. Remember that you can hold Space bar to lock the camera onto your champion when needed
Thanks Curtis and Nathan for the movie recommendation, I watched it after this episode and have begun my process to Zed W IRL.
How I got used to unlocked camera was playing a champion that kinda forced me to unlock it. I played Zac jungle and at max rank, e had a max range outside of the locked camera vision. I would only unlock my camera to use e. Then when I got used to that I slowly started to unlock it in other situations like when walking out of base or when hitting camps. I'm not sure what other champions for the other lanes would be but Zac helped me out a lot when I was learning.
Lads, thank you once again for another great episode.
I Wish there was a Top Lane academy, I do follow coach Chippy's and watch all his great content. But I feel like I am missing out on the community aspects of the MLA, SALTU and Nathans jungle community. The Biopanther episode was so good too!
Cheers again boys
I always love these podcast.
I find it hard to stick to process at times. I was always in and out of LoL. I was wondering if there is a way to take ''vacations'' at times as part of my process?
Listening to you guys talk about league while I play league actually makes me play better. If you're on the subject of map control you bet your ass I'm checking my map more
great analogy for locked cam
another good episode thanks lads!
When a game looks like it's completely over. I'm talking 3 losing lanes, no enemy turrets destroyed, dragons and heralds being just a dream. I start going for psychotic plays. I will try and push down a tower and just try to outplay the 1v1 or 1v2, I'll go for a baron steal or risky roam, I'll go for teamfights that we have no business winning.
Basically if the game is over anyway, I might as well test if the enemy can actually finish it. I'd rather go for a psycho play and coinflip it than sit there waiting for the enemy to finish.
the way they look at each other with a smile when they brought up counter picks lol
32:20 segment. I had the same problem and the way I overcame it was by having this mindset: "Anytime I am behind how do I make the enemy team as miserable as possible to get this one?". Now even when I am behind I am still having fun especially if I delayed 15 ff to 35 minutes loss.
Idc about me winning. I care more about making the enemy as tilted as possible from this win.
31:00 THIS is why ever since I started reviewing, I always review the entire game barring like the last 1 or 2 team fights if those were basically decided by 1 or 2 ppl getting picked because one side's situation is just so crappy there's no more gameplay left to be had.
I tried doing the end of review process like 1 or 2 splits ago and found that I quickly started getting worse at the game and dropping rank. And this is why. I can understand that the game is wildly different if I don't give my 1k shut down or if I just execute my micro just a little better in this early skirmish. So what? I still get a lot of value going over less than ideal situations later in the game because the concepts and learning about the game or my champ are still applicable in future games even if the situation is never 1 to 1 the same.
Especially because I know I don't play anywhere near perfectly in any of my games. And almost nobody does. So you're going to be in crappy situations and being familiar with how to overcome those crappy situations is a useful skill, at least to an extent. My 2c.
36:00 You guys might be a bit too detached from this guy's experience. It's easier to drop the emotional investment and detach yourself from the result of a game when you've got a rock solid process that's proven to work for you to get to Challenger. I'm a bit better about it this year, but last year when I had close really hard fought wins... I'm talking like losing the entire game while trying to work with team mates that are actively avoiding trying to win ("I'm just going to split all game, screw you guys and team fighting" syndrome), into barely etching out a win through a close call backdoor... I'm exhausted after a game like that because I'm not just putting in my all, I'm also doing it in an unfamiliar situation while not knowing what to expect in future games.
"Are all of my games going to be like this? How come others don't need to tryhard their asses off to climb? ...I don't know if I can climb if this is what every game is going to be like, it's just too much."
It's noticeably easier to work through those close games now because I have so much more knowledge to put a game like that into context BEFORE it even happens. Like, our comp is crap into theirs, if I die once this game is incredibly hard because xyz, etc. etc. But if you don't know all of that it just seems like every game is going to be like this/things are very random which be demotivating.
Great video as always guys! I've tried to find the answer to this in your videos, but not found it: for reviewing, would you recommend using the inbuilt replays, recording POV footage or both?
Love from Sweden
Curtis and Nathan emphasise that you should ALWAYS use a POV vod, because only then you can see exactly what you saw in the game. also it can show you how you control your camera and character.
@@redditmajor8768 Thank you so much!
its like i'm in love with this game so much that this split my goal was not climb but just play as many games as i can i did 78 different champs 50% winrate 700games 300+ top, 139 adc. 135 games jng 57 games sup and only 57 games mid i figure it out that i love top most, average 10 or more games a day and i feel like i understand game a lot more just from feeling (i am going up and down s3-b3) so i understand that garen and other easy mechanical champs just wins more, but when start playing yone yasuo kata etc i just loose all lp what i got with easy champs. when i started i was silver 1 and then got 20 games loosing streak, but flex i play with friends today i hit plat 1 and start wondering why difference between 2 modes so huge (sry for my bad english this is not my native language and never learned in school) so the question is did i need replay all 10 games a day or just losses, cuz 3 games block is not for me i tried it and i craving for more games for sure, or i need do like 3 games watch them do brake 3 more game and so on. i don't tilt much cuz i know from you guys this game is a war game :D hardest moba :D and its ok to loose
Well maybe you should stick to one role, and one champ. I know this was six months ago but my guy, quality games are better than pure quantity. Still good you fid the observation that you lose more with mechanically difficult champs, but that is only true because you dont do focus practice on them. So again, please just stick to one champ you like.
Have you fellas watched Ted Lasso? If not its worth a watch. A great show about coaching with plenty of helpful tidbits that have helped me in league as well
nagh champion navoigation used to be different back in the days...
Pantheon: Champion Spotlight | Gameplay - League of Legends :
p: block something after getting your stacks
Q: point on enemy, throw spear, no doge possible
W: point and klick stun
E: point in a direction and make some dmg there
R: point to an area and jump to there
LADYS AND GENTLEMAN, CHAMPION NAVIGATION in 2010
Locked camera is really weird for me as someone who played RTS before League even existed. Whenever I watch someone playing locked camera I actually lose track of their champion in fights MORE even though I logically know they're always in the center of the screen, because my eyes just want to will the camera to move to where the fight actually is.
Stay humble. Stay hungry. Stay curious.
for the unlocked cam:
no joke play ap kaisa top and you'll be forced to unlock cam to land w your whole point as ap kaisa
personally i like end of review because i don’t even know enough about the game or what i’m looking for to get anything out of poring over my reviews.
if i see something really bad that cost me a lot then i just call it there. plus i really only have the bandwidth to focus on my laning right now
“My champion is countered by enemy gromp” 😂
I love League of Legends!❤
YEP
I'm guilty of having a second league account to be away from the eyes of friends. I think it's a double-edged sword though, because league labelled me as a smurf. I had been playing against a couple of gold/plat smurfs in normals and it was getting frustrating, so I decided to move to ranked instead as I figured it would lead to more balanced games. But the very first ranked game I played, I got thrown into a plat game (off-role as well) and got absolutely creamed. I'm 100% silver 4 at best and constantly struggle when playing with my silver/gold friends (which is why I'm playing away from them) so I know for sure that it was a mistake. My MMR is improving, I'm only playing against gold players now, but I also haven't played in a while (possibly due to rough games)
Hate to tell you this, but Nathan's "One mistake = you're done" method promotes the "Games over, might as well not try" narrative. That "End of review" method is fine when reviewing VODs, but it's toxic as fuck for his live coaching.
You're also wrong. It's far more mentally taxing to problem solve and deal with toxic teammates when you're behind than it is to simply winmore in a game that is going well. The situations are not even remotely comparable in the amount of "mental energy" they consume. It might not feel that way for you since coming back from those situations is something you've been doing for a long time, but for other people it's not that simple. It's why their winrates are in the gutter to begin with, because they simply can't function as efficiently in those situations.
32:46 I recommend you guys look up the Cognitive Triangle which is a kind of theory that Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) works on as its foundation. I think this narrative is dangerous if reinforced since at its extremes you can basically justify anything as a result of things not going your way and it would extend well beyond league of legends. Its just muscle memory for thought patterns, if you are reinforcing dangerous narratives, it will continue to be easier to justify them until you are just lost. If you are prone to thinking negatively about yourself, the more often you repeat it the more likely it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I think that's the idea
So what happens when you make the correct macro play in lower elo, but since it is low elo, random things happen and not everyone intentionally plays the game? If you play to the macro game of making the "logical decision" of what you SHOULD do, like a side lane rotation, but the enemy team makes the illogical play... is there anything to learn there? I've heard that you can't rationalize an irrational decision, or that you shouldn't play around the randomness that could happen because then you can't make the correct play based on the fear of an off-chance clown fiesta ensues.
I guess an easier way to ask is if there's anything to learn from you making the correct decisions, and assuming the other 9 people would too? Or do you have to account for the potential fiesta as well?
I remember one coach said that you shouldn't be looking to play as a high level in low ELO because low ELO players don't play like that.
What you can learn is how to apply those dynamics to advance the game instead. Don't do the high ELO thing because it won't work and your teams won't listen, be part of the randomness and manipulate it to your advantage.
Some players are doing a meaningless fight? You can either push a lane and take a.tower or be part of that fight and pick the best target, you'll get gold both ways, good gold and it would help advance the game.
Could "end-of-review" be defined as a mistake so big it permanently damages your agency over the game?
You technically still can win, but most of the time you no longer have a say over the fate of the game for the rest of it
i’m so glad i never played on locked cam. i’m still completely dogshit at the game but that’s one thing i don’t have to learn at least
Interesting example about locked camera: XiaoChaoMeng the rank one top laner on the Chinese super server plays with his camera locked, he mainly plays sett morde ksante attrox.
fast paced yet i had a 2 x 50 minutes games almost today, sadly lost cause i was only winning factor in those, if i didnt the game would be lost by 20-30 minutes
Which is why those games aren’t worth wasting your time even if you think you might be able to hyper carry
I'm really not a fan of the end of review thing. Like, yes, the game is going in another direction it shouldn't have been. But thats gonna happen so much, no matter your elo. I'm in diamond and hell, "end of review" probably happens almost every game at some point for everyone. Of course it's important not to go crazy and nitpick the post game analysis when these sort of thing happen. But learning to play after and "end of the review" mistake ,and what can you do, since they will also make mistake. Honestly, it's one of my first time that I just don't get the point at all in a point you try to make on this podcast. From an outside perspective, this seems more just like the a fun process for the coach to be able to say: End of review, sorry, the master have spoken. But otherwise, should the post review analysis be divided in pre and post "end of review mistake". I don't think so. Just awknowledge that mistake in your review, and understand what comes after from there. My 2 cent. Have a great week you two
toxic
why
the ideology isnt bad but the way nathan handles it in his videos is awful. he goes through the entire review, and once the game losing mistake happens he just says "you messed up, end of review" and leaves the call without going into the mistake whatsoever. the only takeaway from those videos is "don't make any mistakes". he doesn't go into the details or look at the why whatsoever.
Are you talking about his live coaching? Because he's talked before about his priorities in live coaching are to help the viewers and himself as a coach. It gives the least value to the actual person receiving the coaching because if they wanted to learn they should get a proper vod review rather than a live review