I just felt like I found HeyWoah levitating on a mountain top after a long journey across the globe in a quest for gamer knowledge. Thank you sensei 🙏🏻
I will often find myself setting secondary "win" conditions when playing games and not just wargames, especially when learning. If I build for a combo and was able to pull it off, or secured a specific objective then sweet!
That's one of my favourite methods to keep myself from getting salty and still having fun in every game. Realise there's practically nothing I can do to actually win the match? Decide on another objective like taking down the enemy general, holding a certain objective or similar and if I complete it I've still won a personal objective. Helps you stay focused and have fun, even in a losing match.
So I'm the AoS employee at my store in VA. And everyone Loves playing against my Ogor army I got for you. I know it's not the best, I lose a fair amount of games. But I modled my guys after pirates and and sing Ale storm while I play. And people love it, and so I love hearing your mentality here. Makes me happy when I work on getting better at the game, without having to chase a meta.
Remembered this advice at my last MCP tournament. Lost at top table to a fantastic, skilled opponent. Realizing that I was going into an unpracticed matchup against a tough player made me appreciative that I was getting a worthwhile game. Thanks for the solid lesson.
Thank you Heywoah, i needed to hear this... I lose most of my games playing Orks in 40k, i play what i like not what's "best" and have started to be "that guy" i could see it in myself but didn't know how i could break these thoughts.
Saw this recommended in a more recent video so figured "why not watch". Amen to the not blaming bad dice rolls section. I can usually pinpoint the exact point that I made a choice that meant I was then going to be pushing it uphill for the rest of the game. Occasionally it is deployment, I finish deploying all my army.. admire my handy work and "ah crud.. well this is going to be a tough game". EDIT: I always try to not complain about stuff that other people use, or the attitudes of others towards the stuff I use.. Though I know I slip up on occasion. Most commonly with an initial reaction of "that unit can do what now!? ..that seems way too good..." lol.
Wonderfully thoughtful (and unexpected) video. Moving in to my mid-30’s, I’ve been having the ‘it’s ok if you’re a sub 50% player’ talk with myself for a few years now for video games in general and any competitive game (like MtG) I still sorta keep up with. My enjoyment of the games has increased dramatically. Failing still isn’t desired, but doesn’t sting like it did and the occasional ‘just as planned’ moment is that much more awesome. This is all to say I’m right there with ya. Great video, sub continues to be earned.
This is just great life advice. You created some art here in giving advice. You can't change random or the dice, but you can improve everything else so that the dice are more in your favor.
I really appreciate this video. I've played some extremely mixed armies (40k too), from more elite focused ability based armies like Maggotkin most recently, to a lower underdog army like Gitz, and 90% of the time I have lost. Of course I feel low after a loss, but I don't hasten to blame others or my army for it, I chose it for gods sake: list wise and faction wise, and now I look back fondly over my own stupidity and haste in games. My favourite games of all time with AOS were with gitz and skaven. I got into skaven originally from Total War with their last AOS codex, with my first model ever being a doomwheel, bringing it and a skryre list with a Warlock Engineer and Bombadier with his doomrocket (despite the doomwheel not being "meta" as I love it so much), imagining the carnage of the missiles reigning down, warplightning flying everywhere, and the doomwheel stalling first turn in movement and then getting the highest roll for the second charge and running through my own clan rats, the stormcast enemies, Yndrasta herself, banner of apotheosis, and all manner of other shit, has me near crying writing this. The dude I was playing against is "that guy" in the store, and I've played him recently and hes a slimy player to be honest, but the manager told him prior to bring a monster slayer list against my Verminlord I had used in practice games, but I instead brought a warlock engineer and Bombadier and doomwheel, that I had the funniest match of all time imagining my doomwheel reversing and accelerating over the bodies of the stormcast and clanrats after its crap first turn, that it had me cackling throughout the entire game. The original smug look on his face seeing the game unfold over time and calling Yndrasta offhand a pigeon- not meaning any offense just as a joke- was class, and playing him recently I am always reminded of this game that it has me crying laughing reminscing. My second favourite all time moment was when I was playing Daughters of Khaine not realising their insane movement and forgetting look out sir on Mollog and Skraggrot. I was left with only one unit of Grot Shootas after being wiped due to my own stupidity, and for a laugh I said they may as well try and charge 12" and I rolled a perfect double six to the absolute amazement of my opponent and myself, for them to miss all hits and be killed in return, for me to concede laughing and him still incredulous to the charge. Writing both of these makes me realise why I play Warhammer: for fun. I don't give two shits the outcome over time- like for christ sake I spent a 40k game once laughing at the plague Ogryns juicy ass- and looking back on these have had me absolutely creasing that I hope you can find hilarity in my own shortcomings, because to me if you haven't had fun whilst playing: why play at all?
AoS was most fun when I was new at it, and it was just me and 2 other guys painting the armies we thought looked coolest. Then we tried playing and it was really fun when no one really knew what they were doing. 1 year in we were all complete tryhards and it wasn't much fun anymore, now I've almost left the hobby completely
This is how I felt playing overwatch when it came out. The better I got and the more I cared, the less fun I had. I've managed to find a sweet spot with AoS, for some reason the drive to compete isn't as strong with this game as almost nothing is ever on the line (unlike mtg).
whenever i play any game be it tabletop or video games, i tend to just try to have fun playing the game instead of trying my hardest to win. enjoy the journey not the destination
Maybe it's the fact that I was so heavily into role-playing as a kid but playing warhammer in all it's forms is about creating stories to me, not winning or losing. I run my engineer over my bombardier, for example, when I have to choose because my arch-warlock knows that he's trying to usurp the throne and is trying to get him killed in battle. If folks want to play competitively, that's their choice and I respect it. It's just not what I personally play for
Yeah for sure, this video was more for people who weren't having fun because they're caught up with winning and offering solutions - if you're already fine then no big deal.
Maybe its my age, but i play just to play. Couldnt care less if i win, couldnt care less if my opponents minis are all painted. Couldnt care less if either of us play 'Optimally". Enjoy the game, have some fun, a few laughs.
I can't do competitive because I work a stressful af job with life/death consequences for other people if I make bad calls, and I just refuse to bring that energy into my recreational activities. I'm addicted to the long-shot gamble plays that are dramatic and fun because I'm actually allowed to throw caution to the wind in this environment. If other people have that spare energy to put into their game, good for them, have at it.
Yeah that's essentially my subtext throughout this video - if you're having fun, there is no problem. If you're not having fun, reassess your goals. If you want to get good, this is how. If you don't want to, then your options are find the fun at your desired level of effort or stop if you can't deal.
just started this hobby I have spent 3k on models and supplies. I dont even know how to play the game yet but this video helps me alot with knowing what to expect going into it. I will take this video and its message to heart. It will be nice to play a game where my focus is not to win as ive been fairly competitive my whole life. As I turn 33 I notice my reflexes aren't as good as they used to. I found just building the models was satisfying, I actively have seen improvement on painting. Even if I never win a game I have found my zen with the hobby and look forward to dad hammer.
Too true! Tuned in for the AoS advice as a new player, walking away with a sense of zen and appreciation for learning and being okay. What a good video.
I really like this. It was calm and fair. Was nice to hear and helped me realize something about some of my favorite armies that was holding me back as well as something about myself.
This is an excellent video, but i feel it did miss emphasising one additional thing: That people playing to be the best are also doing it because they enjoy it, especially in scenes without significant amounts of money involved. There's reasons they're putting as much effort into *that* game as they do.
Sounds very much like the philosophy behind Playing to Win: Becoming the Champion by David Sirlin. This video just further emphasizes that you don't *need* to play to win, just that if you're not putting everything toward winning, you shouldn't be upset when you're not winning so much. Whereas the aforementioned book states that upfront, and then dedicates the rest of it toward healthy mindsets to take when you *are* playing to win. This video kind of bounces all around the issue, but it's a reasonable dilution of this philosophy.
Great Video as always! As someone who played comp MTG myself I always found myself relating to the poker methods you’re describing, it’s truly the best way of getting better
What you described was me for a while. I would easily get frustrated in game, and would often afterwards kick myself for things I could have done better or failed to do. It made me sometimes unpleasant to play against. I found I enjoyed the game a lot more when I mellowed out and started caring less about winning/losing.
An offshoot of mentality I often see in people that is in that same sphere is the "goldilocks book" mentality To clarify, there's many people who own an army but wont play it because the book is bad. There isnt any problem with this, not winning can be very unfun for some and I wouldn't begrudge anyone for not wanting to throw themselves at Gitz right now, but they seem convinced that their entire shot is based on getting that good book so they'll wait for it to come out. They wont put in the practice to learn the army, they just need that good book. If the book comes out and is OP, they say they wont play it because its toxic, which again in some cases *is* true, some dont like to be that guy. But it often conveniently allows them to, by consistently shifting the blame on a book as too bad or too good, to excuse why they're not winning with it.
Thank you for such a thoughtfull video. Good insights and great advice. And very laidback at the same time. I see a few things from this video in me and my attitude and hopefully that knowledge will allow me to be more purposeful with my hobby :)
Been wargaming for 20(ish) years and just recently jumped into AoS and stumbled upon your channel. I gotta say, this is one of (if not the number 1) the best videos I've ever seen about having a positive attitude in the hobby. 100% I get so tired of people complaining about dice rolls and balance issues. The argument of focusingg on the things you can control rather than the things you can't is so critical. I love your perspective and energy HeyWoah and I really look forward to your future videos.
One of the best videos I have ever seen as a former magic player whose brother made money in it but I did not despite many many top 8s. I think this is great advice. I am going to share it in places that are not AoS but need to here this despite that.
great video, you mentioned casual paradox I am feeling an different kind of Paradox myself, one where I don't feel like I fit in, I'm not an competitive player I build lists like I want but I still play good which means my odd List beats other casual marine players majority of times. I have game plan when I make my list, I remember my stuff and mission, I focus taking threats out, I watch my movements, I negate randomness as much as I can, but in the end I play what I want and so I am inbetween.
That makes you an average person playing a game. We have an inherent want to win with what we like and is cool. If you have fun playing your best with what you like playing you're the average player, congrats on joining the largest group of active players
Your best video. I've never seen someone so eloquently espouse the mighty tenet of "gitgud at the game, or gitgud with yo self." I'm going to have Incantabot have a command to link this video each time I start in on my similar, though pathetic by comparison rant about it, play it for the stream and then get up and make a hoagie as your dulcet teaches everyone a valuable lesson in life and Warhammer. You're the best there is at what you do, man. Moar vids plox.
Great video and great advice. I'm always just happy to play with anyone else who wants to play that I really don't care about the outcome. I just enjoy playing, which is great, since I'm not great at any game. Besides, I'm often the one who provides the space AND armies to play. I had a blast when my daughter wanted to play and picked out Seraphon for her and Nighthaunt for me (I requested Tzeentch but she liked the look of the ghosts). She crushed me her first time out and we had a blast.
Guilty Gear? Daigoat? AoS? Gee-yets? In the Venn diagrams of things that are me I feel like this covers almost all of them. It's perhaps possible that in a previous life or an alternate universe we were brothers... or lovers I can't tell. My only disappointment is that since learning that you like guilty Gear I didn't get a chance to guess that your favorite character is Goldlewis Dickinson, I feel like it would have been my first guess but I guess we'll never know.
Great video. Trying to get into AoS from 40k but having troubles tapping into the AoS community. Any recommendations other than LGS to tap into the American scene? RUclipss,Discord, podcasts?
I thoroughly enjoy playing a few different games, and I've never insisted that the people I play against be perfect, only that they strive to improve, or at least do something interesting, be it in miniatures, board games, or M:tG. The worst games aren't the ones against bad players, because bad players can be taught. The worst games are the ones that you walk away from bored.
I would say the worst games are when either of the players gets stomped. It's no fun to play a game where you just Dominate and no fun to play a game where you were dominated. Whether it be nice or Army/list inbalance it's just no fun for either party.
Frost-wreathed Ice was powerful because you could 1-shot small foot heroes, but the army was so bad that it didn't even matter. Weak to lots of bodies and this was back when troopspam was at its strongest, the only points to get were from objectives, and BCR had no special capturing rules so you actually just couldn't really score any points. 2 gitz would out-capture a stonehorn. A little earlier than my time there was a destruction soup list doing pretty well, but it was mainly because of 1000 points of arrowboyz and battlebrew on 2 stonehorn.
What if I just find the skills that need to be cultivated in order to be 'good' to have no interest for me because they don't relate to the fantasy of the setting? I like the setting. I like the stories that emerge unscripted. I like the fantasy of leading my own force of plucky heroes or villains through trials, triumphs and failures. Like a D&D character, I want to see them change and develop with some guidance from me, but also with some unexpected forces. That's my army. That's my goal. What that pursuit doesn't connect with is poring over stats/probabilities and choosing a unit because it's statistically 'good' vs. one I think is cool. "Strategy" and "Tactics" in most tabletop games have pretty much zero connection with their real world counterparts. Listening to someone who's sold 3 unpainted, mold-line infested and barely assembled armies on Ebay in the last 4 months drone on about the meta does not connect me in any way with the stuff that's interesting to me. While they undeniably have some kind of skill in order to have won a bunch of games/tournaments, they're not skills that in any way connect with my excitement over little men trying to find a lost alien ship in a corrupted carnivorous forest. They're not skills that I see a value in developing for myself. I'm not interested in making the 'best' decisions on the tabletop that allow me to win. I want to make decisions that lead to the most interesting/cinematic game. I'm not playing to "Win the game", I'm playing to have my little plastic dudes take enough imaginary skulls from their enemies so they can build a monument to their bloodthirsty deity and hopefully avert his wrath a little while longer. The fact that they have 2 hand weapons and thus, statistically an additional 22.3333(repeating of course)% chance of causing a wound against a T4 opponent is meaningless to me. I glued those weapons on because they look badass. That's it. So when I politely try to say "I'm bad at the game", I guess what I'm trying to compress into that one sentence is that I have other priorities, priorities not the same as the guy taking another 10 minutes to tell me why I lost the game against the pile of grey plastic he referred to as his "Fun and not super serious list".
The subtext for this video starts with "If you're currently having fun, there is no problem." However, if the reason you aren't having fun is losing all the time, I've given some advice on how to get good. If you don't want to get good, that's perfectly fine, I myself don't really for this game - but you need to be able to deal with that somehow - for instance, what you seem to be doing.
@@HeyWoah I don't think I'm really disagreeing with you then. I have fun most of the the time, but where the fun falls apart for me is where people assume that the game is about 'win or lose' for everyone. I have a group of friends I play with who all enjoy playing together. We have the same attitude and the same goals with the game, so we tend to have a great time. Unfortunately as many of them are getting older and having kids, gaming night happens less and less. However when I do venture back into stores I constantly seem to get met by the wide-eyed, frothing and competitive gamer who cannot comprehend that it's possible to have a fun game without utterly stomping your opponent into oblivion with the current tournament meta list. Even when you carefully explain you're just looking for a chill game and your army isn't using the exact, tournament scene accepted list of units, they then nod and go "Ok, I'll play my 'fun' list" and then proceed to take out last year's tournament/meta list and gleefully prepare to table you. And when you're like: "Dude, why?" You get the same "Get gud or get used to losing" mantra. More and more the community seems to be losing the idea that there is a massive, massive chunk of land between the rabid tournament net-list and the unfortunate narrative player with his underpowered, backstory for every unit army. There's just SO much more scope for gaming and enjoyment out there. There's even a place somewhere in that middle ground where people come together who admit that GW game design and balance is actually pretty awful and house rule the hell out of the game. So yeah, for sure, have a good attitude. Don't whine and blame the dice or make excuses. Hell, you shouldn't have to if you just have fun playing the game, win or lose. But can we at some point just take a step back and admit that Warhammer isn't freaking bobsledding, Formula1 or MMA? Or even Magic The Gathering for that matter. That just maybe all the math, theory crafting, rule analysis and jargon is just a tad ridiculous and sweaty for a set of game rules that are primarily designed to market very expensive pieces of injection molded plastic?
It's not a rivalry, it's a dynamic of two important roles working together - that of the innovator (coder/list designer) and pilot (astronaut/player). There's a tendency to downplay one or the other by certain communities, but each is integral, and rarely is a person stellar at both.
Not sure it works for all games. E.g. Elden Ring: people used RoB all the time while more reasonable people warned them they suck when RoB is finally nerfed. And this happened with the recent patch. Now those people complain that their win button got taken away. Smart people who listened to the advice stopped relying on poorly balanced weapons and now dominate PvP. So I do think it has merit to warn (complain) about poor balance. And that made the game much better for everyone. I argue even for people previously abusing broken stuff because now they have a chance to see the error of their way and correct it. In essence, I get your point and agree, but would ask people to understand the nuances.
I used to have a line in here about how providing balance feedback to the company that makes the game is quite proper, and distinct from how you interact with other players. When you play some hot shit that is obviously broken you have made a choice; ride the wave and dump it when it's fixed, or stick to the meat and potatoes so you have better fundamentals when the playing field is leveled. Each has pos and neg.
You also gotta ask yourself, did they ask for your opinion? Odds are probably not since they continued to use it anyway. Same context here, if someone is playing casually, leave the meta out.
BTW I'm also bad at fighting games but love them (street fighter has a nostalgic magic for me). I can't even combo. I tried it in training mode and my fingers don't move fast enough to do it even with infinite setup time, instructions, a stationary opponent. Maybe with practice I could get it but hours of joyless grinding for improvement is not worth the payoff to me. I kinda wish I was good at them but not enough to get good at them. I'm bad at and enjoy RTS too, but not against people who take it seriously where it becomes memorising timings over the spectacle.
Good advice. I literally just dropped out of the second day of a tournament because I got creamed so hard in the first three games yesterday and while I'm very disappointed and feeling pretty down about it, I didn't try. Like, at all. I threw together a list months ago, barely tested it and just went ahead and went forward. The real problem? Attitude. I'd been burned out on AoS for months and had no desire to do this tournament in the first place, but was convinced by a friend to go, when I knew in the first place that I didn't want to even think about AoS, let alone paint more shit for it. I still do feel disappointed; I'd hoped I would do well and I might have if I'd actually tried, though I still probably would have gotten tabled in Game 3 (I had never played against Beasts of Chaos, let alone seen a fully assembled model of one).
Tl;DR great vid, I agree with everything you have said here. Keep up the great work and remember your ABCs. I deal with the toxic casual mentality all the time. It's tiring. It's gotten so bad in my area that I just come in to hobby now. Depressing really. Bright side is that stuffs getting built. Darkside is nothing is getting played ... I like playing 2k games, what has been standard for at least the twenty years I have been engaged in warhammer (40k and fantasy). It gives me something to direct over the long work weeks I have. But the people around me want to play smaller games. so they don't have to play against the "not fun units" or so they can get more games in. Quantity is a quality all it's own but it isn't a replacement for it. (Much less a good one imo) the other problem i have is people around me think I'm "that guy" cause they have that negative mentality for "I like dragons and dragons are currently the meta thing". I like 'dragons'. I play 'dragons'.
I play Krieg in 40k. Not only, one of the worst armies in the game, also one of the worst subfactions in the game. I have to go into each of my games knowing full well I'm probably going to lose very hard, however the goal of the game is to have fun. In life shame, in death atonement.
I like winged deamons in my Slaves army, and every time i lose them to simple rats with toxin and men with guns. And nothing can help me except new deamon Prince's rules. And that sucks.
I mostly agree but it depends. Let's say you pick Seraphon because you love dinosaurs and flying reptiles, but this edition it's the magic and infantry that are good and the dinos are all overcosted (unlikely hypothetical). In this case you are handicapped in the game and know it but saying "get good and play the units you don't like" isn't really in the spirit of fun or why you picked up the army and maybe even the game in the first place. Battletomes should have reasonable internal balance allowing for a range of different playstyles (and often they do). Wanting internal balance isn't toxic or covering up for insecurities. It's okay to be just okay and want to do okay with the expensive minis you bought in your casual hobby. It's overwhelmingly a casual game. Staying on top of an evershifting meta isn't within most player's priorities and capabilities even if they wanted to. It would be a mistake for GW to treat Warhammer like an e-sport.
@@HeyWoah Your point is the guy who happens to be playing dragon is just someone who loves the models, so my question will be: what happens when at the end of the year the same guy show up with his brand new slaves to darkness army because he remember he really really really love dark knights? People blames gw, I blame people.
No, my point is that there are lots of new people that straight up avoid buying an army whose theme they love because a large portion of the playerbase will harass them for it. Which I think is childish behavior, and a black eye for the community as a whole. There exists people who just buy the new most powerful thing every 6 months and then lie about their reasoning - I'm not talking about this person. I'm talking about new players.
@@HeyWoah I think your point is matematically wrong because there is one op army but plenty of garbage one, so for every person like that (which doesn’t exist) there are at least 5 people who don’t buy the army they love because of how stomped they could get if they ever play.
There are certainly people who don't buy an army because its rules are bad, but I don't see how that is relevant to what I said? These are not mutually exclusive.
“When you choose not to try very hard you tend to lose to the people who choose to try harder than you” holy fuck I didn’t expect a quote from this video to hit like that well done sir
I find myself returning to this video and this is really a great answer anytime the concepts of competitive/casual/narrative/so-so-pro come up in an argumentative fashion. This game is great and some self awareness about how we all enjoy it will help all of our individual satisfaction and the larger culture of the game
I just felt like I found HeyWoah levitating on a mountain top after a long journey across the globe in a quest for gamer knowledge. Thank you sensei 🙏🏻
more like you found Haywoah ontop of a stone horn on top of a mountain.
I will often find myself setting secondary "win" conditions when playing games and not just wargames, especially when learning. If I build for a combo and was able to pull it off, or secured a specific objective then sweet!
That's one of my favourite methods to keep myself from getting salty and still having fun in every game. Realise there's practically nothing I can do to actually win the match? Decide on another objective like taking down the enemy general, holding a certain objective or similar and if I complete it I've still won a personal objective. Helps you stay focused and have fun, even in a losing match.
AOS players are a whole different breed man. There's a level of chill we should all strive for.
So I'm the AoS employee at my store in VA. And everyone Loves playing against my Ogor army I got for you. I know it's not the best, I lose a fair amount of games. But I modled my guys after pirates and and sing Ale storm while I play. And people love it, and so I love hearing your mentality here. Makes me happy when I work on getting better at the game, without having to chase a meta.
Remembered this advice at my last MCP tournament. Lost at top table to a fantastic, skilled opponent. Realizing that I was going into an unpracticed matchup against a tough player made me appreciative that I was getting a worthwhile game. Thanks for the solid lesson.
Great video HeyWoah. I live by the saying “there is no such thing as failure, only feedback”. Practice, have deliberate practice and learn
Thank you Heywoah, i needed to hear this... I lose most of my games playing Orks in 40k, i play what i like not what's "best" and have started to be "that guy" i could see it in myself but didn't know how i could break these thoughts.
You're an ork, you fight. That means you win no matter what the stupid 'umies say
I dealt with it by not playing, only painting and finding other hobbies. Much happier now.
Might be one of the best pieces of advice that could be handed out to people at all stages in our awesome hobbies.
This video is a certified gamer moment
I had a string of bad games this week and I started spazzing out a bit. I revisited this and found it very grounding.
Back to the grind.
What a concise summary of competitive gaming. Also enjoyed the video overall! Keep these more thoughtful ones coming!
This should be mandatory.
Saw this recommended in a more recent video so figured "why not watch".
Amen to the not blaming bad dice rolls section.
I can usually pinpoint the exact point that I made a choice that meant I was then going to be pushing it uphill for the rest of the game.
Occasionally it is deployment, I finish deploying all my army.. admire my handy work and "ah crud.. well this is going to be a tough game".
EDIT: I always try to not complain about stuff that other people use, or the attitudes of others towards the stuff I use.. Though I know I slip up on occasion. Most commonly with an initial reaction of "that unit can do what now!? ..that seems way too good..." lol.
Wonderfully thoughtful (and unexpected) video. Moving in to my mid-30’s, I’ve been having the ‘it’s ok if you’re a sub 50% player’ talk with myself for a few years now for video games in general and any competitive game (like MtG) I still sorta keep up with. My enjoyment of the games has increased dramatically. Failing still isn’t desired, but doesn’t sting like it did and the occasional ‘just as planned’ moment is that much more awesome.
This is all to say I’m right there with ya. Great video, sub continues to be earned.
I went and put on my HeyWhoah shirt so I could be in the right mental space to receive such BIG wisdom.
This is just great life advice. You created some art here in giving advice. You can't change random or the dice, but you can improve everything else so that the dice are more in your favor.
I really appreciate this video. I've played some extremely mixed armies (40k too), from more elite focused ability based armies like Maggotkin most recently, to a lower underdog army like Gitz, and 90% of the time I have lost. Of course I feel low after a loss, but I don't hasten to blame others or my army for it, I chose it for gods sake: list wise and faction wise, and now I look back fondly over my own stupidity and haste in games.
My favourite games of all time with AOS were with gitz and skaven. I got into skaven originally from Total War with their last AOS codex, with my first model ever being a doomwheel, bringing it and a skryre list with a Warlock Engineer and Bombadier with his doomrocket (despite the doomwheel not being "meta" as I love it so much), imagining the carnage of the missiles reigning down, warplightning flying everywhere, and the doomwheel stalling first turn in movement and then getting the highest roll for the second charge and running through my own clan rats, the stormcast enemies, Yndrasta herself, banner of apotheosis, and all manner of other shit, has me near crying writing this. The dude I was playing against is "that guy" in the store, and I've played him recently and hes a slimy player to be honest, but the manager told him prior to bring a monster slayer list against my Verminlord I had used in practice games, but I instead brought a warlock engineer and Bombadier and doomwheel, that I had the funniest match of all time imagining my doomwheel reversing and accelerating over the bodies of the stormcast and clanrats after its crap first turn, that it had me cackling throughout the entire game.
The original smug look on his face seeing the game unfold over time and calling Yndrasta offhand a pigeon- not meaning any offense just as a joke- was class, and playing him recently I am always reminded of this game that it has me crying laughing reminscing.
My second favourite all time moment was when I was playing Daughters of Khaine not realising their insane movement and forgetting look out sir on Mollog and Skraggrot. I was left with only one unit of Grot Shootas after being wiped due to my own stupidity, and for a laugh I said they may as well try and charge 12" and I rolled a perfect double six to the absolute amazement of my opponent and myself, for them to miss all hits and be killed in return, for me to concede laughing and him still incredulous to the charge.
Writing both of these makes me realise why I play Warhammer: for fun. I don't give two shits the outcome over time- like for christ sake I spent a 40k game once laughing at the plague Ogryns juicy ass- and looking back on these have had me absolutely creasing that I hope you can find hilarity in my own shortcomings, because to me if you haven't had fun whilst playing: why play at all?
AoS was most fun when I was new at it, and it was just me and 2 other guys painting the armies we thought looked coolest. Then we tried playing and it was really fun when no one really knew what they were doing. 1 year in we were all complete tryhards and it wasn't much fun anymore, now I've almost left the hobby completely
This is how I felt playing overwatch when it came out. The better I got and the more I cared, the less fun I had. I've managed to find a sweet spot with AoS, for some reason the drive to compete isn't as strong with this game as almost nothing is ever on the line (unlike mtg).
whenever i play any game be it tabletop or video games, i tend to just try to have fun playing the game instead of trying my hardest to win.
enjoy the journey not the destination
Great video, thanks for mentioning it in your recent video - because it indeed didn't show (up) in my sub feed.
i don't care about the meta i just like my funny lizard dudes!
Blessings about your chill self
I needed more positive thinking. Thanks man.
Maybe it's the fact that I was so heavily into role-playing as a kid but playing warhammer in all it's forms is about creating stories to me, not winning or losing. I run my engineer over my bombardier, for example, when I have to choose because my arch-warlock knows that he's trying to usurp the throne and is trying to get him killed in battle. If folks want to play competitively, that's their choice and I respect it. It's just not what I personally play for
Yeah for sure, this video was more for people who weren't having fun because they're caught up with winning and offering solutions - if you're already fine then no big deal.
Maybe its my age, but i play just to play. Couldnt care less if i win, couldnt care less if my opponents minis are all painted. Couldnt care less if either of us play 'Optimally". Enjoy the game, have some fun, a few laughs.
I can't do competitive because I work a stressful af job with life/death consequences for other people if I make bad calls, and I just refuse to bring that energy into my recreational activities. I'm addicted to the long-shot gamble plays that are dramatic and fun because I'm actually allowed to throw caution to the wind in this environment. If other people have that spare energy to put into their game, good for them, have at it.
Yeah that's essentially my subtext throughout this video - if you're having fun, there is no problem. If you're not having fun, reassess your goals. If you want to get good, this is how. If you don't want to, then your options are find the fun at your desired level of effort or stop if you can't deal.
just started this hobby I have spent 3k on models and supplies. I dont even know how to play the game yet but this video helps me alot with knowing what to expect going into it. I will take this video and its message to heart. It will be nice to play a game where my focus is not to win as ive been fairly competitive my whole life. As I turn 33 I notice my reflexes aren't as good as they used to. I found just building the models was satisfying, I actively have seen improvement on painting. Even if I never win a game I have found my zen with the hobby and look forward to dad hammer.
They go hand in hand but you are right sometimes it's just too hard to put the time in getting good.
This is such good advice for life
Too true! Tuned in for the AoS advice as a new player, walking away with a sense of zen and appreciation for learning and being okay. What a good video.
I really like this. It was calm and fair. Was nice to hear and helped me realize something about some of my favorite armies that was holding me back as well as something about myself.
This is an excellent video, but i feel it did miss emphasising one additional thing:
That people playing to be the best are also doing it because they enjoy it, especially in scenes without significant amounts of money involved. There's reasons they're putting as much effort into *that* game as they do.
If you want to have fun and still win sometimes through no fault of your own I suggest Blood Bowl.
Sounds very much like the philosophy behind Playing to Win: Becoming the Champion by David Sirlin. This video just further emphasizes that you don't *need* to play to win, just that if you're not putting everything toward winning, you shouldn't be upset when you're not winning so much. Whereas the aforementioned book states that upfront, and then dedicates the rest of it toward healthy mindsets to take when you *are* playing to win. This video kind of bounces all around the issue, but it's a reasonable dilution of this philosophy.
This is an elegant vocalization of my thought process competing at locals. Please do more stuff like this!
AoS is a Dad game, and if you approach it that way, you will be much much happier and have way more fun. Great vid, sir!
Excellent advice that was much needed. Thank you.
Great Video as always! As someone who played comp MTG myself I always found myself relating to the poker methods you’re describing, it’s truly the best way of getting better
What you described was me for a while. I would easily get frustrated in game, and would often afterwards kick myself for things I could have done better or failed to do. It made me sometimes unpleasant to play against. I found I enjoyed the game a lot more when I mellowed out and started caring less about winning/losing.
An offshoot of mentality I often see in people that is in that same sphere is the "goldilocks book" mentality
To clarify, there's many people who own an army but wont play it because the book is bad. There isnt any problem with this, not winning can be very unfun for some and I wouldn't begrudge anyone for not wanting to throw themselves at Gitz right now, but they seem convinced that their entire shot is based on getting that good book so they'll wait for it to come out. They wont put in the practice to learn the army, they just need that good book.
If the book comes out and is OP, they say they wont play it because its toxic, which again in some cases *is* true, some dont like to be that guy. But it often conveniently allows them to, by consistently shifting the blame on a book as too bad or too good, to excuse why they're not winning with it.
The advice I tend to give on stream is that playing a bad army can be like training in the high gravity room for when your new battletome gets good.
Thought this was an excellent and thoughtful video, thanks man
Wonderful video that can apply to so many things.
5/7 good use of color
Wow.
This is great talk about what playing a game is.
Thank you for such a thoughtfull video. Good insights and great advice. And very laidback at the same time. I see a few things from this video in me and my attitude and hopefully that knowledge will allow me to be more purposeful with my hobby :)
Been wargaming for 20(ish) years and just recently jumped into AoS and stumbled upon your channel. I gotta say, this is one of (if not the number 1) the best videos I've ever seen about having a positive attitude in the hobby. 100% I get so tired of people complaining about dice rolls and balance issues. The argument of focusingg on the things you can control rather than the things you can't is so critical. I love your perspective and energy HeyWoah and I really look forward to your future videos.
Outstanding video, thanks for making it. I need to have this pep talk with myself more often.
This also applies to sports.
One of the best videos I have ever seen as a former magic player whose brother made money in it but I did not despite many many top 8s. I think this is great advice. I am going to share it in places that are not AoS but need to here this despite that.
Commenting to appease the algorithm gods so more folks can hear the talk on attitude. Such a monumental factor in how we can play and enjoy something.
I’ve decided (yeah it’s totally up to me), HeyWoah is the poet laureate of AoS.
This is straight gold.
Heywoah Broadcasts: brought to you by The Cream
This is such good advice.
This was a really, really good video. Thank you.
yoooo new HeyWoah vid, love the content man hopefully we see some more frequent uploads
awsome video. i love fighting game and i play AOS. i have followed your twitch. see you soon
Different type of video, but very welcome. Excellent stuff.
Best channel on RUclips
Fantastic video
Thank you
Good video to come back to...I definitely will before I actually complete my first army.
Great message and life advice ❤️👍🏻
Good stuff
great video, you mentioned casual paradox I am feeling an different kind of Paradox myself, one where I don't feel like I fit in, I'm not an competitive player I build lists like I want but I still play good which means my odd List beats other casual marine players majority of times. I have game plan when I make my list, I remember my stuff and mission, I focus taking threats out, I watch my movements, I negate randomness as much as I can, but in the end I play what I want and so I am inbetween.
That makes you an average person playing a game. We have an inherent want to win with what we like and is cool. If you have fun playing your best with what you like playing you're the average player, congrats on joining the largest group of active players
Your best video.
I've never seen someone so eloquently espouse the mighty tenet of "gitgud at the game, or gitgud with yo self."
I'm going to have Incantabot have a command to link this video each time I start in on my similar, though pathetic by comparison rant about it, play it for the stream and then get up and make a hoagie as your dulcet teaches everyone a valuable lesson in life and Warhammer.
You're the best there is at what you do, man. Moar vids plox.
Great video and great advice. I'm always just happy to play with anyone else who wants to play that I really don't care about the outcome. I just enjoy playing, which is great, since I'm not great at any game. Besides, I'm often the one who provides the space AND armies to play. I had a blast when my daughter wanted to play and picked out Seraphon for her and Nighthaunt for me (I requested Tzeentch but she liked the look of the ghosts). She crushed me her first time out and we had a blast.
Oh we gaming
I prefer to rewrite the Nelson Mandela quote as "You don't win or loose, you learn."
Guilty Gear? Daigoat? AoS? Gee-yets?
In the Venn diagrams of things that are me I feel like this covers almost all of them. It's perhaps possible that in a previous life or an alternate universe we were brothers... or lovers I can't tell.
My only disappointment is that since learning that you like guilty Gear I didn't get a chance to guess that your favorite character is Goldlewis Dickinson, I feel like it would have been my first guess but I guess we'll never know.
Great video. Trying to get into AoS from 40k but having troubles tapping into the AoS community. Any recommendations other than LGS to tap into the American scene? RUclipss,Discord, podcasts?
"be the 25%" goes so unbelievably hard
Pogging out of control
I legit lesson to this like once a week lol. Not in like a weird way but to keep myself in check lol good vid
I thoroughly enjoy playing a few different games, and I've never insisted that the people I play against be perfect, only that they strive to improve, or at least do something interesting, be it in miniatures, board games, or M:tG. The worst games aren't the ones against bad players, because bad players can be taught. The worst games are the ones that you walk away from bored.
I would say the worst games are when either of the players gets stomped. It's no fun to play a game where you just Dominate and no fun to play a game where you were dominated. Whether it be nice or Army/list inbalance it's just no fun for either party.
I’ll say what I said on my discord server : this vid should be pinned in every wargamming community
And also in Dead by Daylight. Which I don't think is as toxic of a community as some games, but is extraordinarily scrubby.
Was BCR bad back in the day? I remember how scary the icicle breath one-shot was!
Frost-wreathed Ice was powerful because you could 1-shot small foot heroes, but the army was so bad that it didn't even matter. Weak to lots of bodies and this was back when troopspam was at its strongest, the only points to get were from objectives, and BCR had no special capturing rules so you actually just couldn't really score any points. 2 gitz would out-capture a stonehorn.
A little earlier than my time there was a destruction soup list doing pretty well, but it was mainly because of 1000 points of arrowboyz and battlebrew on 2 stonehorn.
Toxic/casual paradox.
What if I just find the skills that need to be cultivated in order to be 'good' to have no interest for me because they don't relate to the fantasy of the setting? I like the setting. I like the stories that emerge unscripted. I like the fantasy of leading my own force of plucky heroes or villains through trials, triumphs and failures. Like a D&D character, I want to see them change and develop with some guidance from me, but also with some unexpected forces. That's my army. That's my goal.
What that pursuit doesn't connect with is poring over stats/probabilities and choosing a unit because it's statistically 'good' vs. one I think is cool. "Strategy" and "Tactics" in most tabletop games have pretty much zero connection with their real world counterparts. Listening to someone who's sold 3 unpainted, mold-line infested and barely assembled armies on Ebay in the last 4 months drone on about the meta does not connect me in any way with the stuff that's interesting to me. While they undeniably have some kind of skill in order to have won a bunch of games/tournaments, they're not skills that in any way connect with my excitement over little men trying to find a lost alien ship in a corrupted carnivorous forest. They're not skills that I see a value in developing for myself. I'm not interested in making the 'best' decisions on the tabletop that allow me to win. I want to make decisions that lead to the most interesting/cinematic game. I'm not playing to "Win the game", I'm playing to have my little plastic dudes take enough imaginary skulls from their enemies so they can build a monument to their bloodthirsty deity and hopefully avert his wrath a little while longer. The fact that they have 2 hand weapons and thus, statistically an additional 22.3333(repeating of course)% chance of causing a wound against a T4 opponent is meaningless to me. I glued those weapons on because they look badass. That's it.
So when I politely try to say "I'm bad at the game", I guess what I'm trying to compress into that one sentence is that I have other priorities, priorities not the same as the guy taking another 10 minutes to tell me why I lost the game against the pile of grey plastic he referred to as his "Fun and not super serious list".
The subtext for this video starts with "If you're currently having fun, there is no problem."
However, if the reason you aren't having fun is losing all the time, I've given some advice on how to get good.
If you don't want to get good, that's perfectly fine, I myself don't really for this game - but you need to be able to deal with that somehow - for instance, what you seem to be doing.
@@HeyWoah I don't think I'm really disagreeing with you then. I have fun most of the the time, but where the fun falls apart for me is where people assume that the game is about 'win or lose' for everyone. I have a group of friends I play with who all enjoy playing together. We have the same attitude and the same goals with the game, so we tend to have a great time. Unfortunately as many of them are getting older and having kids, gaming night happens less and less. However when I do venture back into stores I constantly seem to get met by the wide-eyed, frothing and competitive gamer who cannot comprehend that it's possible to have a fun game without utterly stomping your opponent into oblivion with the current tournament meta list.
Even when you carefully explain you're just looking for a chill game and your army isn't using the exact, tournament scene accepted list of units, they then nod and go "Ok, I'll play my 'fun' list" and then proceed to take out last year's tournament/meta list and gleefully prepare to table you. And when you're like: "Dude, why?" You get the same "Get gud or get used to losing" mantra.
More and more the community seems to be losing the idea that there is a massive, massive chunk of land between the rabid tournament net-list and the unfortunate narrative player with his underpowered, backstory for every unit army. There's just SO much more scope for gaming and enjoyment out there. There's even a place somewhere in that middle ground where people come together who admit that GW game design and balance is actually pretty awful and house rule the hell out of the game.
So yeah, for sure, have a good attitude. Don't whine and blame the dice or make excuses. Hell, you shouldn't have to if you just have fun playing the game, win or lose. But can we at some point just take a step back and admit that Warhammer isn't freaking bobsledding, Formula1 or MMA? Or even Magic The Gathering for that matter. That just maybe all the math, theory crafting, rule analysis and jargon is just a tad ridiculous and sweaty for a set of game rules that are primarily designed to market very expensive pieces of injection molded plastic?
Next video: how to determine if you're a dad gamer or an uncle gamer
Always tuning in for some well spoken gamer brain time with kaalia :D
@HeyWoah what is the rivalry you mentioned exactly at @0:44 ? I recognize the photo of Margaret Hamilton.
Thanks!
It's not a rivalry, it's a dynamic of two important roles working together - that of the innovator (coder/list designer) and pilot (astronaut/player). There's a tendency to downplay one or the other by certain communities, but each is integral, and rarely is a person stellar at both.
@@HeyWoah Eyy, thanks b0ss
oh yea
Please more vids. Even if just rips from twitch
Great video
Not sure it works for all games. E.g. Elden Ring: people used RoB all the time while more reasonable people warned them they suck when RoB is finally nerfed. And this happened with the recent patch. Now those people complain that their win button got taken away. Smart people who listened to the advice stopped relying on poorly balanced weapons and now dominate PvP. So I do think it has merit to warn (complain) about poor balance. And that made the game much better for everyone. I argue even for people previously abusing broken stuff because now they have a chance to see the error of their way and correct it. In essence, I get your point and agree, but would ask people to understand the nuances.
I used to have a line in here about how providing balance feedback to the company that makes the game is quite proper, and distinct from how you interact with other players. When you play some hot shit that is obviously broken you have made a choice; ride the wave and dump it when it's fixed, or stick to the meat and potatoes so you have better fundamentals when the playing field is leveled. Each has pos and neg.
You also gotta ask yourself, did they ask for your opinion? Odds are probably not since they continued to use it anyway. Same context here, if someone is playing casually, leave the meta out.
BTW I'm also bad at fighting games but love them (street fighter has a nostalgic magic for me). I can't even combo. I tried it in training mode and my fingers don't move fast enough to do it even with infinite setup time, instructions, a stationary opponent. Maybe with practice I could get it but hours of joyless grinding for improvement is not worth the payoff to me. I kinda wish I was good at them but not enough to get good at them. I'm bad at and enjoy RTS too, but not against people who take it seriously where it becomes memorising timings over the spectacle.
Is it possible to get a link to the music in this? Its big chill
Good advice.
I literally just dropped out of the second day of a tournament because I got creamed so hard in the first three games yesterday and while I'm very disappointed and feeling pretty down about it, I didn't try. Like, at all. I threw together a list months ago, barely tested it and just went ahead and went forward. The real problem? Attitude. I'd been burned out on AoS for months and had no desire to do this tournament in the first place, but was convinced by a friend to go, when I knew in the first place that I didn't want to even think about AoS, let alone paint more shit for it.
I still do feel disappointed; I'd hoped I would do well and I might have if I'd actually tried, though I still probably would have gotten tabled in Game 3 (I had never played against Beasts of Chaos, let alone seen a fully assembled model of one).
BIG
Tl;DR great vid, I agree with everything you have said here. Keep up the great work and remember your ABCs.
I deal with the toxic casual mentality all the time. It's tiring. It's gotten so bad in my area that I just come in to hobby now. Depressing really. Bright side is that stuffs getting built. Darkside is nothing is getting played ... I like playing 2k games, what has been standard for at least the twenty years I have been engaged in warhammer (40k and fantasy). It gives me something to direct over the long work weeks I have. But the people around me want to play smaller games. so they don't have to play against the "not fun units" or so they can get more games in. Quantity is a quality all it's own but it isn't a replacement for it. (Much less a good one imo)
the other problem i have is people around me think I'm "that guy" cause they have that negative mentality for "I like dragons and dragons are currently the meta thing". I like 'dragons'. I play 'dragons'.
#deep loved the video!
Fantastic video. I am on my third watch.
👌👌
I play Krieg in 40k. Not only, one of the worst armies in the game, also one of the worst subfactions in the game.
I have to go into each of my games knowing full well I'm probably going to lose very hard, however the goal of the game is to have fun. In life shame, in death atonement.
Well this might be too far in the opposite direction and that's a bit too defeatist for my tastes.
I like winged deamons in my Slaves army, and every time i lose them to simple rats with toxin and men with guns. And nothing can help me except new deamon Prince's rules.
And that sucks.
I mostly agree but it depends. Let's say you pick Seraphon because you love dinosaurs and flying reptiles, but this edition it's the magic and infantry that are good and the dinos are all overcosted (unlikely hypothetical). In this case you are handicapped in the game and know it but saying "get good and play the units you don't like" isn't really in the spirit of fun or why you picked up the army and maybe even the game in the first place. Battletomes should have reasonable internal balance allowing for a range of different playstyles (and often they do). Wanting internal balance isn't toxic or covering up for insecurities. It's okay to be just okay and want to do okay with the expensive minis you bought in your casual hobby. It's overwhelmingly a casual game. Staying on top of an evershifting meta isn't within most player's priorities and capabilities even if they wanted to. It would be a mistake for GW to treat Warhammer like an e-sport.
This video should be called in defence of metachaser cause this is what really is.
How so?
@@HeyWoah Your point is the guy who happens to be playing dragon is just someone who loves the models, so my question will be: what happens when at the end of the year the same guy show up with his brand new slaves to darkness army because he remember he really really really love dark knights? People blames gw, I blame people.
No, my point is that there are lots of new people that straight up avoid buying an army whose theme they love because a large portion of the playerbase will harass them for it. Which I think is childish behavior, and a black eye for the community as a whole.
There exists people who just buy the new most powerful thing every 6 months and then lie about their reasoning - I'm not talking about this person. I'm talking about new players.
@@HeyWoah I think your point is matematically wrong because there is one op army but plenty of garbage one, so for every person like that (which doesn’t exist) there are at least 5 people who don’t buy the army they love because of how stomped they could get if they ever play.
There are certainly people who don't buy an army because its rules are bad, but I don't see how that is relevant to what I said? These are not mutually exclusive.
B I G
“When you choose not to try very hard you tend to lose to the people who choose to try harder than you” holy fuck I didn’t expect a quote from this video to hit like that well done sir
I find myself returning to this video and this is really a great answer anytime the concepts of competitive/casual/narrative/so-so-pro come up in an argumentative fashion. This game is great and some self awareness about how we all enjoy it will help all of our individual satisfaction and the larger culture of the game