The mistake Sandy did in this video is, that the ID4 is using the MEB platform. VW plans to utilize this in at least 20 different vehicles. Most of the design choices were meant to support the future models as well and not just one car. The excessive "voids" in the front of the car are for the front drive motor. And for those who complain about drum brakes: Most electric cars do engine braking ( energy recuperation) and the friction brakes are rarely used. Also winter salt tends to decimate disk brakes ( inactivity does it as well) and rear brakes handle a small percentage of braking. Drums are also protected from the environment and will work when the car needs them.
I bet some steel parts will be replaced with lighter parts for the Audi Q4 Etron on the same platform. It also looks like VW is shuffling around their brands, making VW the entry level. the Seat Id3 clone and the skoda id4 clone look like higher priced vehicles.
This is an excellent point. The same MEB skateboard is literally used for all of VW Group's electric lineup - the only thing they change is the number of battery modules and motor configuration. Tesla creates a bespoke chassis for each model. These are fundamentally different engineering decisions and have their own unique pros/cons. It's a bit unfair to compare them directly to each other.
@@michaeldbouck its not used for the whole line up. they have the taycan platform and are working on a bigger SUV platform and a smaller ID2 platform.to replace the triplet. but the bulk of VW EVs will be build on the MEB.
I'll donate my 1980s ABS plastic eveready incadesent flashlight with the original zinc batteries. Maybe you can make it stay lit for more than 5 minutes at a time.
Thank you very much for these very exciting, technical analyses! It is rare to find such in-depth comparisons today. The internet is full of videos and articles where generalities are discussed in epic breadth - which nobody really needs. But real tear downs by engineers are rare.
@Vegeta db. Wow. Pretty aggressive for a login with zero credentials and zero claim to credit. So you know more about auto manufacturing than Sandy, eh? ?? ;
@@MunroLive Please comment on the RMO/PCAR alliance impact on global semi-tractor electrification. With pack format & chemistries the leading differentiators, how will they stack up vs Tesla?
Reports from driving the VW ID3 and ID4 indicate that they have a very good balance between ride and handling, so perhaps we shouldn't critique them too much; VW historically gets that right. Anyhow, the arched upper links in the rear suspension are to clear a longitudinal "frame rail" in the unibody, which is part of the crash structure, while also allowing the links to be positioned as high up in the vehicle as the suspension-geometry gurus wanted them and not having to position that frame rail upward where it would eat into luggage and passenger space. Quite a few other vehicles have similarly-shaped upper links in their rear suspensions and for the same reasons. As for the MacPherson front suspension, VW has plenty of experience with this, and we do also have to remember that this vehicle platform is designed for all-wheel-drive, using a modular design that uses the same suspension parts regardless of whether it has the front drive module or not. The same parts are going to be used on vehicles that will be heavier than the ID4 in the future, and in order to do that, they may seem overbuilt in this one.
Cannot confirm. My previous Audi A8 suspenion was way worse than my 2020 Performance model 3 Performance suspenion. I'm loving it despite there is still room for improvement.
@@or123and way worse in what kind of way? A suspension can be better than another measured on objective standpoints or be just different in feel for one person or the other. I don't think that the M3 performance suspension is a very good suspension, but it may be very well suited to your liking nonetheless
All I know is I have seen my 2006 VW Passat on a lift recently and you would think it was built two years ago. Exhaust system is 100% original and have yet to replace brakes. 128,000 miles so far. Wanting to like the ID-4.
Drum brakes were used as VW claim they will not corrode as badly as disc brakes and they will last longer due to the rear brakes no been used much due to regenerative breaking.
With all due respect to Mr.Munro, if he doesn’t understand or know why VW has used certain design, it does not necessarily mean it’s wrong or bad, just saying (e.g. VW’s reasoning behind the drum brakes for EV’s & regen). Loved the bleeps, the man’s got a temper😂
"I see they are using a design that has worked for decades, proved by millions of cars sold all over the world. A design that they know how to build. A design that is a little more expensive than what Tesla is doing. I hate it. Can Volkswagen even build cars? Someone hand me an Ensure and tell me what I am looking at again? Oh yeah, an ID.4." - Sandy Monroe.
Sorry but a lot of the criticisms are actually strengths of the MEB platform. Those bent suspension bars are not for mistakes, but to adapt existing components in new applications. I.e. they are used to adapt the MEB platform for this car. You have to remember that this platform will be used by over 20 different products in over 15 million cars by swapping some parts, such as those suspension arms. The same applies throughout the vehicle. Tesla makes 4 cars, VAG makes over 300!
@@mrThoreKarlsson not at all. These are common suspension parts that cost 10-50 usd each. The fact that they are different shapes based on the application has little affect on the price. These are things that long term owners may replace once.
@@or123and Tech is not equal to cars and peoples needs and preferences are much for varied for cars around the world. A model 3 does not appeal to 99% of Europeans. To succeed as an auto maker you need to have a product adapted to each region. Tesla appeals now enough but is niche. It will take mainstream automakers like VAG to get the masses to adopt EVs. Tesla can steer and propel the market but that’s not enough.
Munro rule. The people who would normally make this kind of video simply can't afford these vehicles so it's incredible to see a business taking the time to inform us. I guess I'm saying it's appreciated, thank you.
@@MunroLive thanks for the review. You have a powerful position in the automotive world, therefore Maybe you shut give the manufacturer the opportunity to answer to your critics. Example. Massive front axle for the 4×4 version. Big bars because heavier platform cars will come. Drum brakes because you can almost break by recuperation . Regards.
The stator housing is not painted! the low profile rib pattern is typical used in low pressure die casting, to improve form filling in thin walled designs and over flat walled surfaces which otherwise cools the melt rapidly. This is typically used in Cylinder Head and Cylinder Block LPDC Designs. The grey color(painted color...) comes from the T6 heat treatment, quenched in water. The other motor parts is HPDC, typically not possible to water quench. For form stability and reduced stresses you use T5 stabilization for HPDC. 2h 200deg ish.
Look man... you can't expect Sandy to know these things, and you can't expect Sandy to not guess at those things he doesn't know. Sandy knows he's the smartest and that engineers working at these companies are idiots. They clearly never do things for reasons.
@@updlate4756 Yeah, I mean, what kind of dumbass puts a front subframe in a car?! So much cross car bracing that is totally unnecessary! They really should've done a BMW style front suspension, held to the car by moist paper towels. What even is a MacPherson strut?!
Drum brakes on the rear are disappointing from a performance standpoint but seeing as how this is rear propelled and how regeneration will take up most of the rear brake duties it makes sense to install drums. One of the weaknesses of all Tesla models are disc rotors rusting and pads getting stuck in Calipers. Suspension setup was probably chosen to increase interior space and carrying capacity, suv vehicles all tend to be built a little more sturdy than sedans or hatchbacks. Lack of front storage? Fuses are easily accessible, 12v battery can be accessed with the current setup. My guess is that it’s for ease of maintenance and repair.
I know this is an old comment but I just came across this video. You have said all of the exact things I was thinking. I would not be afraid to tow a trailer or camper behind this vehicle and I appreciate the way that they built the suspension and the parts used. It is kind of like being a truck guy but with Electric cars. Who cares if it has a little less range if you know it can take the abuse. Look at the Yugo from years ago . Tiny junky car that was real good on gas.
I personally love the quality aluminum control arms and links in my older Volvo, as a consumer, because they simply last forever in any environment and you just need to change the individual bushings.
He also forgets that a model 3 is NOT an ID.4 competitor. Id.4 is a family crossover in the c-segment (e.g. Tiguan, RAV 4) Tesla sits in the BMW 3 series d-segment category. A d-segment car will ALWAYS be a bit more sophisticated design. The fact that in some part Tesla does it cheaper shows that Tesla cuts costs in the wrong areas. "the bracing and suspension design is too strong an high quality... That is a bad thing" Honestly this guy might have experience but that sounds like nit picking to me.
@@Astke Sandy Said basically the same thing about the frame of the Model 3. Elon's Reply was basically "Yea, we fired that guy". What Sandy is basically saying is "You could do the same thing with less weight/cost", based on the Model 3 teardown (good stuff if you haven't seen it already).
@@mclason Well a VW drives a certain way. I have driven many different cars in a very short time (3 years). Renaults, Volvos, VWs, Toyotas and BMWs. And the VW always gave the strongest and most stable impression. Maybe the design is like that BECAUSE it makes the car drive in a certain "VW" way. If it ain't broken don't fix it. One of the reasons why VW still sells a lot, especially in Europe, is BECAUSE of the way they ride and feel. Strong, stable and unflappable. And that is partially thanks to their suspension/chassis design and tuning. That is most likely the reason for why they made the ID.4 as it is. They could have taken a streamlined cheaper route that Tesla made but it might have made it ride like a Tesla as well.... which is not great. What Tesla does works for them and that is great. But that doesn't mean other brands should suddenly do it as well. Also Elon is not an engineer. He is a manager/entrepreneur. What he says could mean anything.
The ID.4’s front suspension is no different than a BMW 3-Series or X3 which to this day still uses McPherson strut front suspension, as does a 911. You can easily add adaptive dampers too if you want to offer a ride quality that has a range of adjustments to it. It’s just a simpler design. Tesla chose to use double wishbone front suspension not because it saved money but because it is perceived to be a superior product. It’s what Mercedes and Audi use on their similarly sized C-Class/A4 models, but it costs more and requires more complex links and bushings. VW uses front struts on every single car sold in the US today from the compact Golf hatchback to the full size Atlas SUV. The ID.4 is underpinned by the MEB platform which is going to underpin VW’s cost effective EV models. I wouldn’t expect to see double wishbones up front on an economy car. Honda got rid of them on the Accord 3 generations ago because of cost savings AND have only just now added them back to the Acura TLX, what some might consider a luxury car version of the Accord. There is no benefit to ride quality or handling that your average soccer mom/dad driving their kids around town is going to notice. Double wishbone costs more to fix, weighs more and in my own experience is more prone to wear. Struts are cheaper and still offer fantastic handling and fully independent suspension, they also tend to offer more clearance in the wheel wells allowing for a tighter turning radius. Also, the rear suspension aluminum arms look very similar to what you see on a Golf or Jetta with multilink rear suspension. I don’t quite know if I believe those are there due to a mistake or if they’re there on purpose. I’m sort of surprised he’s composing about some of these things yet he seemed to nearly 💦 his pants over Faraday Future’s butterfly doors that obviously are expensive and overly complex. Update: here’s a list of luxury cars (including BMWs) that use MacPherson struts: Audi: A3/S3/RS3 TT Q3/RSQ3 Q4 e-tron BMW: 228i/M235i GranCoupe 230i/M240i/M2 330i/M340i/M3 430i/M435i/M4 X3 30i, X3 M40i, X3M X4 30i, X4 M40i, X4 M Z4 30i, Z4 M40i Cadillac: CT4 2.0T, CT4-V, CT4-V Blackwing XT4 XT5 XT6 Genesis: G70 KIA: Stinger GT Jaguar: E-Pace Land Rover: Evoque Discovery Sport Lexus: ES250/ES350 NX300 RX350 Mercedes: A220/A35 AMG CLA250/CLA35 AMG/CLA45 AMG GLA250/GLA35 AMG/GLA 45 AMG GLB250/GLB 35 AMG MINI (BMW): EVERY SINGLE MODEL Porsche: 718 Boxster 718 Cayman 911 TOYOTA: Supra (BMW Z4 derivative) VOLVO: Polestar 2 XC40 C40 The list goes on…
If it's good enough for Mercedes and Audi then I'll take that on the Tesla. I think you just insulted women who drive their kids to soccer by the way. You might want to apologize.
@@bluetoad2668 If MacPherson struts are good enough for a Porsche 911 or a BMW 3-Series, C-Class (previous generation), etc. it’s good enough for a family crossover used to carry kids around to soccer games. A strut front suspension isn’t a bad design and it’s less expensive to build, fix and has less parts. Sandy kept saying the ID.4 was not on par with what you see on a BMW, referencing the Model 3/Y’s double wishbone front suspension, yet the direct competitor to the Model 3 from BMW, the 3-series uses struts instead of double wishbone front suspension. I can tell you that driving a 3-series back to back with my Model 3 Performance, the 3-series is the more enjoyable drivers car. My daily driver is a Model 3 Performance, so I’m not suggesting double wishbone is inferior. My point with all this is that Sandy is trying to tell people the suspension design is garbage and subpar to the “BMW quality” suspension found on a Tesla. Yet he leaves out arguably some of the best handling cars on the road use that exact same design. I’ve owned cars with MacPherson struts and double wishbone. Just having a double wishbone doesn’t mean you suddenly have handling or ride quality benefits over a strut. You can find plenty of excellent handling and riding cars with either setup. I just think Sandy needs to give better context about things because I’m sure most people watching these videos know 1/1000th as much about cars as I do and they will take whatever he says as the word of god.
Look, these suspension descisions are always going to be a trade off, usually to do with price and space requirements. I think Tesla had the space up front and so went with what most people would agree is a better system at the front given that they still have space for a frunk. Porsche needed space up their too in the 911 and hence the struts and torsion setup. I'm not saying that the struts are bad, it's just if I could I would design in double bones - design is a trade off.
Look, these suspension descisions are always going to be a trade off, usually to do with price and space requirements. I think Tesla had the space up front and so went with what most people would agree is a better system at the front given that they still have space for a frunk. Porsche needed space up their too in the 911 and hence the struts and torsion setup. I'm not saying that the struts are bad, it's just if I could I would design in double bones - design is a trade off.
4:49 I respectfully disagree that the largest carmaker in the world "made a mistake" in designing the suspension. And I am not even a VW fan. Unless you can get into the head of the design engineer, you cannot know every factor that went into the numerous design decisions. That's analogous to me (an FAA-Certificated A&P Mechanic) looking at an aircraft wing flap with a flashlight and drawing conclusions as to why it was designed without knowing the many reasons WHY it ended up the way it did.
Sandy doesn't seem to be an engineer the more I see his videos, we need a younger more experienced person on this channel. Sandy knows basically nothing about the id4, I bet he didn't even watched the release videos.
Same. I kinda always disliked VW, but no way in hell that's a design mistake. It has to do with suspension geometry and "baseplate" that's likely going to mount in various different models.
Disk brakes work just fine in winter! im living in a northern country in Europe. No problem at all. Thats just a major fail. Full size SUV with drum brakes. No thanks 😂
@@lifestyle4dividends776 When you the motor is used to brake (and recover energy), the drum brakes are sufficient to block wheels so more braking power would be useless.
3:18 drum brakes on the rear axle are almost immune to gravel and sand thrown up from the front wheels. Disc brakes on the front are not assaulted by sand and gravel as much. Especially if cost is a concern, rear drum brakes can be a good choice in terms of lower maintenance costs over the life of the vehicle. Due to the laws of physics, the weight shift forward during braking means that rear brakes only do about 35% of the work anyway.
Drum brakes work well with less pressure and are great for emergency brake holding power. On a rear wheel drive Electric vehicle they are not going to be used much at all due to regen braking. If you are in ice and snow or slick conditions you don't want much braking effect on the rear. you want the rear wheel traction to stay there to prevent spin out in a slight turn at speed. It is a proven design.
Sandy, been thinking for a long time what I can comment on in all the videos you have produced, I look forward to each and every video, as a technician I am deeply in debt to you for helping keeping me sane with your informative videos during lockdown in the UK, so all I can say is a big "THANKYOU".
I love his videos. Complaint about over-engineering on the car make me glad I've owned VWs for 54 years now. Still have my 1970 beetle I bought while I was in the army in Berlin. At 235,000 miles we did a body off restoration. Best in show award. I don't think I've got enough time left on this earth to keep my ID.4 that's on order that long, but I'll give it a try.
If I recall, Tesla uses a different front cradle for the none-AWD variants of their vehicles. (Unless they changed this to simplify manufacturing!) Regardless, I'm not sure how VW is filling out that 'engine bay' so much! Remember the AWD Model 3 still has a good sized frunk, whereas this bay is pretty much totally full.
@@VoxelLoop some other reviewers mentioned that VW has a smaller front bay hood section so that they can maximize the passenger / cabin space. Small hood = cramped bay to fill it out. I will take a bigger cabin space over a frunk any day !
@@sayanchx Haha, that was me mentioning the shorter front bay hood. Someone else mentioned that it’s also much higher than the Model 3 hood which I have to agree with. I wish we would hear someday why VW designed the ID4 like they did. I can’t believe that there wasn’t a good reason their design decisions.
May have been mentioned by others in the comments, but the main reason for the drum brakes is due to regenerative braking. A traditional braking system is 60/40 balance. In ev the motor driven wheels braking force is for the most part less than 30%. There are exceptions. Some current EV's are suffering from brake disc corrosion on the motor driven wheels due to lack of braking force required.
Sandy is entitled to his opinions however he has never sat in executive leadership meetings cost justifying a volume BEV architecture program that will be used for a variety of vehicle types being assembled on the same production line globally as compromises will be made in the architecture design to ensure assembly lines can be interchange for various body styles. While he praises architectures designed for a frunk, bear in mind that Fremont based manufacturer has only produced two variants off of two very expensive architectures (each).
I am positive that the VW engineers know how to design suspensions , they have had plenty practise over the years . Tests results have raved about the comfort, quietness and steering directness of this vehicle which is no doubt partly due to the suspensions design.
It’s remarkable that is not mentioned. Almost all reviews mention the great driving comfort compared to the M3 and Y. Here you see why it drives better. And, is that then a bad design? I don’t think so. It’s a clear choice.
In reference to suspension, I have driven both the VW ID4 and MY. The ID drives smoother by far. It feels like a normal car whereas the Tesla was too stiff and jarring.
My model 3 suspension is horrible! Unpleasent to drive at low speed (way to stiff) And an unsafe feeling above 160 kmh. My Golf 7 GTE fealt plantet at 230kmh with my model 3 it feels like im jumping around and loosing ground contact all the time. Nothing near to a sportscar setup. Im getting a KW V3 suspenion installed next week then the cars suspension will be perfect 👍🏼
VW has been making cars that go on Aurobahns since their inception, so I dont think they need Tesla designers to teach them how to make proper suspensions.
"Tear it down!!" .... "Tear it down!!" .... "Tear it down!!" .... "Tear it down!!" .... -The entire comment section shouting from the audience. Do it Sandy!!!
What is called here as over-designed I would call instead safe-design, in contrast to Teslas under-designed suspension parts, drive shafts and sticking braking pads. Other owners are happy to have survived breaking suspension parts at 130 mph. In my 2014 S85 the hand brake caliber failed after just 40.000 mls, the brake pad stuck to disc every morning, the discs were full of rust. After 70.000 mls the suspension had to be replaced, because they used cheap material. This was out of warranty for about $2.000. On my 2019 MX100D the drive shaft has to be replaced every 10 - 20.000 mls, because it is a design fail and under-designed, that even hasn't be fixed with the new Raven. In 5 years of Tesla vehicles I had more problems with suspension, brakes and drivetrain than in the about 800.000 mls I have driven in 30 years before, where I had exactly 0 issues with all this parts on a wide range of vehicles. Tesla is good with electronics, but bad with mechanical design. So be careful when calling something over-designed, please.
If you have ever owned German vehicles they are known to be over engineered and highly complex. That’s why they are so expensive and unreliable. I’ve owned many German vehicles over the years and they all constantly end up in the repair shop. Too much cheap plastics, over engineered parts and hundreds of control modules. Not to mention there are many recalls due to faulty unsafe parts. Is Tesla perfect definitely not. But considering they haven’t been making cars for over 50 years like all other legacy autos they are doing pretty well so far.
@@JAM_2024 The vehicles I drove over more than 30 years before Tesla were: BMW, Chrysler, Citroen, Mercedes, Peugeot, Seat, and SMART. Mit none of them I had so many problems and unintentional shop visits as with Tesla. With none of them I had any breakdown's, with Tesla I had 3 of them within 3 months. I had to drive loaners for more than 3 months. And in contrast to Tesla all the brands have a real service that is reachable, and in case the cars can also be repaired at independent shops for acceptable rates.
Cannot confirm your views. I ditched an Audi A8 for a performance model 3 and oh boy that P3D suspenion is SO much better! Still room for improvement but pretty good. by far not every german car, even premium ones, have such a good suspenion. Tesla is well balanced especially 2021 Performance model 3. Recently some pro drivers compared it against Taycan and they were delighted how well it did despite cost is a third.
Totally justified reaction to that blinking torch. At 65 I feel that gentlemen of our vintage have experienced far too many inconveniences. A future episode on some of the worlds most useless and unfriendly products may prove popular.
3 года назад+8
Sometimes is «old», proven technology is better than making a new design, only to be «new». And the end, the driving characteristics are more important, than if the technology is «new» or «old» (proven).\
Are you guys going to go through the Ford Mustang Mach-E like this aswell? Would be interesting to hear Sandys take on a new car from a company he worked at.
Ford is American. He only has bad things to say against the EU cars. Naturally, he does not take EU weather conditions and regulations into account. That is why we have a lot of his "I don't know why...." rumblings. Yes Sandy, YOU don't know.
@@PinchOfLuck That's not true. While he liked the Model Y he really hated the Model 3. So yes he also criticised American cars. Also normally cars are designed differently for different markets. If for example, the EU forces you to put in more steel in certain places because of regulations normally you wouldn't carry that over to other markets. That's unnecessary additional cost.
@@JackONeil12 I will be interested to see what changes there may be when they start building the ID.4 in the US -- since the cars built in the US will be mostly for the North American market, I am guessing they may remove the "extras" required by the EU.
Another reason for drum brakes is that the rear ones get little use in a normal car due to weight transfer, and even less in an electric one due to all the regenerative braking. So VW has pulled a clever durability trick: drum brakes tend to suffer less from the rust accumulation that comes with infrequent use, while discs and their pads suffer a lot from that. In places were there's a lot of salt on the roads,there are tons of EV, especially Teslas, with brakes that need to be thrown out and replaced well before they're worn out due to all the corrosion.
When disc brakes first became mainstream they were on the front wheels only on many cars - too expensive to put front and rear. The disc/drum combo worked for the reasons you give. My 1970 Ford LTD braked nicely for the size car it was. Bought it used as my first car, kept it a long time - and was glad the cost of brake replacement was kept ~low that way.
The ID3 and probably also the ID4 has excellent isolation against road noise. Can ist maybe be, that the non explainable things are for better noise comfort ? For me its fascinating how silent my ID3 is compared to my Hyundai Ioniq.
Road noise is somewhere in the middle based on Bjorns test... Its quite impressive to around 80km/h but passed that, its even worse then some cheaper cars... Its good but nothing special compared to other new EVs...
@@DG-uv3zw this would mean that Hyundai Ioniq is extremely bad because my ID3 is really excellent. On summer tires I don't hear on most roads anything from the street. I hear only wind noise
@@DG-uv3zw the Noise table from Björn doesn't make a difference between road noise and wind noise. I think not only the dB(A) is important but also the kind of noise, so where it comes from. I don't use a noise meter in the car but if I change between them, the ID3 feels much better on noise comfort. Don't understand me wrong, I had heavy software issues I would nobody recommend the ID3 or ID4 until they have left Beta state, but on things like noise they made a good job (I think)
Nice ending with behind the scenes clips, love it :) I was hesitating whether to mention this, I hope you will take it as a compliment, which is as I mean it. It is incredible how somebody your age understood the power of RUclips.
It kind of looks like to me as if they played around with the stiffness of the top rear suspension arms in order to manipulate the tire position under high load. Since they like to setup the car to understeer even with RWD this seems like a classical VW move to save costs on the overall suspension kinematics. Tesla has a classical equal stiffness multilink design which is very dependend on the position of the suspension mounts on the car to be low in order to increase camber under higher load. Since the id4 is a suv with more ground clearance than even the model y this was not an option. You are comparing apples to oranges here.
I literally was just at a shopping website where numerous people were complaining about not being able to buy a simple flashlight that didn’t have all the silly blinking modes! Sandy is not alone in his frustration. 😅
@@MunroLive I did enjoy it, after all where do you see the ID4 underneath. Thanks for this. Now "dont turn it on, take it apaaaart! " The only fault of this car and the flashlight too , is that they are not made by Tesla... I hope you did not fire the guy in the back for daring to appear in your video 😀😀😀
So far as know the tesla axis is not known for their durability. Also the rear disc breaks on the teslas have big rust issues. ... And no one needs a multi-link front axis in a comfort SUV. It is a VW and not a high performance BMW with Nürburgring abilities. :-) But it is interesting to see the different view from a engineer like Sandy. The rear axis point of view is also new for me as a VW fan. You see everybody has potential. :-)
Disc Brakes have one disadvantage for BEV. They need Energy to free them. Drumm-Brakes got a spring for it. Thanks to recuperation of the motor the aft brakes have a very light load. So having drumm brakes there is no disadvantage on the braking side and an advantage on the energy level.
The irony is they keep praising the multi-link front suspension of the Model 3 by saying it's "like a BMW", but the equivalent BMW model (3 series) actually has McPherson struts just like the ID4.
@Kevin Smith Actually to my knowledge you can't achieve as tight turning radiuses on dw's compared to phersons. There's usually that flipside of coin in all designs. Dw's also generally speaking heavier assembly of those two. But sure dw's have their good points too.
cool that Tesla has a cheaper 5 bar link but the Tesla also comes with a 20% bigger turning circle so theres probably a reason why VW has done it like they did.
Volkswagen made a mistake? A company that has made cars for 75 years vs Teslas brutal 13 years making cars. Tesla is a software company thats trying to make cars. VW is a car company trying to make software.
I would expect the additional struts to be a placeholder for the upcoming dual motor awd models. High commonality, crash behavior and structural integrity is what a new platform is for, especially when used this widely and regardless of weight size and power, no?
It still rides more comfortably than a Tesla though. Tesla cuts cost at suspension quality. Which is one of the reasons for the price, even though it is a segment higher than the ID.4. ID.4 = RAV 4/Tiguan. Model 3 = BMW 3-series. That it is cheap That it is cheap says more about the cost cutting of Tesla.
@@Astke The suspension design was one the things Munro questioned on this. The Model 3 has a harder sportier suspension than most cars sold in the US, but compares to most European cars sold in Europe. I have not driven the ID.4 yet, but agree with Munro that the car could have been designed different and thus have higher range at the same or lower price. Also it is somewhat early to make real life comparisons, the next 12 month will tell us more about the car and how owners like it.
@@RMTFamily The Model 3 even has a harsher ride than most cars sold in Europe. Including the smaller cars we drive here. It is pretty much like it never settles or stays calm. While even the sportiest cars in the same segment (e.g. m340i/M3) have suspension that can make the car feel pretty steady and calm when they need to be. That is the difference and that is why normal high end suspension systems are usually slightly over engineered. It is to make it work in as many situations as they can.
@@Astke This is true, I remember a TV show with Alexander Bloch at VOX where they tested Model 3 & ID.3 and Kia eSoul on a special bumpy test stretch and the Tesla chassis jumped around like a wild horse while the ID.3 was so much smoother.
Wonder if the hollow aluminum part in the rear suspension was a necessary adaptation needed to make the ID.4 feasible on the MEB-platform? You can only stretch a platform across so many models/sizes before some aspects become suboptimal.
Yeah I would also think that they did want it to stay mostly identical across many different cars so it still has the low hanging arches on the ID.4 where it does not need them. Also knowing the many issues the axle/suspension stuff has on Teslas I guess I would trust this a bit more.
Meh, I saw a Golf or B6+ Passat... with a battery pack under the body. It is all it is. Tesla is closer to an Audi with multilinks. In the long term this will of course be cheaper imo, but of course for many new car buyers the Tesla makes much more sense.
I think VW (apart from Audi, Porsche ofc) does not sell any multilink cars anymore. The last were the B5 Passat and the Phaeton (e.g A8, Bentley). Now only double wishbone at best. Some platform share Audi SUVs also do double wishbone. I think only some MLB-platform cars have multilink.
@@rkan2 Agreed, except Tesla has fallen down so much on build quality and service, I am seeking alternatives. The engineering of the ID.4 is not impressive, but that is only one piece of the puzzle.
@@stevebakker6884 I agree. The ID 4 is built with good quality . You can call it over-Enginering, I just call it quality. This car has a way higher driving comfort then the model 3 . That comes with a price.
@@stevebakker6884 Where have you been. Tesla may have had their issues, but even Sandy Munro stated that the new Model Y can compete with any German car in quality, including paint.
I think we need an indepth review of that damned flashlight, lol. But seriously, Sandy , you are my favorite channel to watch these days! I'm excited for the next vid
I think Sandy has lost the plot here. What he just doesn't seem to understand is that the ID.4 is but one of *many* models that are to be made from Volkswagen's MEB platform. Saying that the curved link is a "mistake" is being ignorant of the fact that they are coming up with a platform that is designed to range from small hatchbacks to large people movers. VW isn't dumb; they came up with one part that will work in all the applications. These seat of the pants takes make for good RUclips, but they're not very good engineering analyses. I hope the final report has better justification about what's actually good and bad with this car.
Sandy’s an automotive engineer, & he’s looking at it from that perspective. If those links Sandy pointed out made sense in a modern, wheels-up design, he’d say so.
@@TraditionalAnglican He might be an engineer, but hes also from a different engineering era. Hes not the absolute on anything. Not understanding something in his expertise doesnt mean it's bad or wrong. And if it ends up being wrong, they will change it. I'm sure Tesla went thru the same over the years.
You’re assuming that Sandy doesn’t understand what a “Platform” is - He worked as a Chief Engineer for Ford which has used various platforms for multiple cars & trucks since Henry Ford was alive! As Sandy showed during an interview with Ford’s Chief Designer for the Mustang-E Project, non-vertically integrated Auto companies have long-term relationships with suppliers which often dictate when & where particular parts will be used, even when those parts are less efficient & add cost, complexity & inefficiency (& make cars, etc. take longer to manufacture) - These have been the Cardinal Sins of Engineering since the time of the of the early Pharaohs 5000 years ago. The Cardinal Sins of Engineering are as immutable as the Cardinal Sins of Christianity…
@@TraditionalAnglican I'm not sure what Sandy knows or doesn't know anymore. On the Hyundai Kona review video, he was driving along with his turn signal on and wondering why the Lane Keep Assist wasn't working. He then said that Hyundai should get rid of volume knobs. Both of these things show a stunning lack of understanding when it comes to both how cars work and what customers want. As far as suppliers, I can tell you haven't worked in the auto industry. Suppliers do not have an "off the shelf" control arm where VW or Ford or whoever can take it or leave it. Each part is designed for the application it's going to be used in. Ford designed the Mach E the way they did because their priority was getting a car to market as fast as possible. That meant using a bunch of parts bin stuff from the Escape rather than designing a bespoke part for this car which takes longer. You can bet that future EVs are going to be *far* more efficient to produce. VW was under a similar time crunch with the MEB platform and had the added complication of needing it to work for small city cars as well as larger family haulers. Sandy has admitted he does not read Automotive News or any similar industry publication. Thus, he may be completely unaware that the ID.4 is but one of many EVs that VW Group is producing. If you want to talk about "Sins", I would rank beta testing a "Full Self Driving" program on public roads with other road users who haven't consented to be part of an experiment to be a far worse infraction than re-using coolant piping. But I know that's an unpopular opinion around here.
@@TraditionalAnglican Good point. I'm sure there are lots of politics behind the scenes. Sandy does understand most, but how many years ago and it was Ford. European companies have different designs due to various reasons from their realities.
First he critiques VW for overspending on the structure and the critiques for not spending enough on suspension and other parts. Seems like the "right way" is the Tesla way and all others are suboptimal?
LED's powered by DC voltage tend to blink when the capacitor fails.. (voltage interruptions) see that often with cheap capacitors used in less expensive LED torches.
"These are things that you should be able to design out." Apparently VW didn't watch the video where Elon says, "The best part is no part. The best process is no process..." I love the bloopers - keep 'em coming! Thank you, Sandy and Team, I'm so glad your back for more instructional videos. You have changed the way I look at things... for the better!
Legacy auto cannot let go of it's old thinking... for all the talk of "new platforms/architectures" they seem to have twice the part count of Tesla for an equivalent vehicle!
Stop talking nonsense, tesla used 5 links where vw used only one piece, the drum brakes are way simpler, cheaper they are sealed and maintenance free....
@@GregRobsonUK bullshit, we all know that EVs have significantly way less parts than ICE, i see no issue with the vw EV platform. Its nothing compared to the ICE platform.
UBD tore an ID.3 apart and adjusted their target price for VW shares significantly up after that. They estimate that VW will be able to make 15% margin on their EV’s. That’s no small potatoes compared to Tesla that produces at break even at best.
I'm pretty sure Volkswagen reverse engineered a Tesla Model 3 several years ago. I'm sure they learned a lot from it about batteries and power electronics, but it seems they weren't willing to learn about the parts of the car they already knew how to make. As a result, we get a typically-overengineered VW body.
From what I can tell the ID4 platform was pushed out a year or 2 sooner than they wanted to. You might be seeing things that were done to just get it out the door vs quality engineering to get it right than out the door.
I suspect you aren't too far from the truth. It looks like VW did some sub-optimal things to speed up the whole process of getting it out the door. Although I do care about the environment.
@@jason-uo5xs The only fear coming across is yours. Personally I don't have a dog in the EV fights so I don't really care. What I do care about is the future of the environment.
So really missed points that other videos have done better. 1.) Drum brakes are there because it is a sealed unit, performance is not needed on the rear due to the motor being there and performing most of the breaking effort. The benefit of the sealed unit is that road grime can't get into it as it rarely will be used. This is a major issue with disc brakes on EV's they don't get used. Also means that the rear drum should last the life of the car. 2.) The car simply far and a way out does the ride quality found in a Tesla, it was engineered that way. It is also designed to tow which the Model 3 is not.
@Kevin Smith Go drive the ID.4 then come back and talk to me. The ID.4 is not a performance car, it is a general purpose SUV with almost he same cargo capacity of a Model X yet rides almost as good as a Volvo with air suspension and has seats that are just as good as Volvo. I can't speak for soccer moms but I can tell you that not everyone wants a performance car. Tesla are generally awesome but their fan boys are worse than worse jerk BMW owner.
@Kevin Smith Okay but please don't be sexist against women with regards to soccer mom's. it is pretty terrible move. Use women to make fun of a car that you've never driven shows how weak of a person you are. Grow up.
There is nothing wrong with the front suspension using a strut suspension with steel control arms. Similar design to mk7 gti/golf r. If you are expecting double wishbone, while better it is more expensive. As for the rear, why do you mention the curve in the aluminum links to be a mistake?
MacPherson strut front suspension, it’s been good enough for every 911 Porsche since the 964 until the very latest 992 model. Certainly good enough for a budget BEV SUV. ( And before the Porsche fanboys jump on me 992GT3 yes I know before someone mentions, and for additional dork points did you know the DLS has double wishbone front).
About the Tesla suspension: A mechanic that changed my wheels, said the Tesla suspension was one of a Audi A4 from the Year 2010. What do you say to that?
If you want an opinion about the architecture of your home - ask the plumber. You will get the plumber's opinion. It's similar - the guy is very good at changing wheels. And you've got the opinion of the guy who changes wheels about the suspension. You can also ask your dentist.
Seems to be a pretty good car with an overcomplex design. Can't wait for Teslas produced here in Germany! They will force our manufacturers to move forward.
@@pxidr I think it's not a matter of "if" but "when" they will get the final approvals for the factory. This is not the first factory built in Germany nor the last.
@@korswe BER was a mess mainly because of mismanagement and incompetence. Keeping up to the evolving regulations over the years and years of delay came just on top of that.
In making space for the battery as a non-structural element they were forced to add thickness and build the frame up in the space immediatly around the battery. This added the under side cross carriages.
Mostly due to cost and packaging. Takes up less space and eliminates upper control arms. The disadvantage is that camber control on compression is absolute sheeeeeet. There are ways around this like to make the suspension travel so stiff and short that there is minimal compression and have good handling or let the suspension travel and not care about camber control and have handling be bad. If you want it both ways you need some sort of double wishbone or multilink.
The drum brakes on my Prius rear have over 120k miles on them and they are not even 50% worn. I replaced the front brakes at 108k. Braking off the motor just makes brakes last forever.
@@ronaldderooij1774 Hes biased towards Tesla. Yes, Tesla has very good designs, but it doesnt qualify others as not good. Tesla isnt a reference point to other makers.
That ending is gold.
😂 happens to all of us
reminds me of crawling under my Kia Niro for oil change cursing at my Milwaukee light for doing the same damn thing.
Sandy was inspired by the VW paint job and is working blue now
Yep I was LOL. I hope they release a full blooper reel video at some point :)
Without a doubt. Let it fly Sandy, let it fly!
The mistake Sandy did in this video is, that the ID4 is using the MEB platform. VW plans to utilize this in at least 20 different vehicles. Most of the design choices were meant to support the future models as well and not just one car. The excessive "voids" in the front of the car are for the front drive motor. And for those who complain about drum brakes: Most electric cars do engine braking ( energy recuperation) and the friction brakes are rarely used. Also winter salt tends to decimate disk brakes ( inactivity does it as well) and rear brakes handle a small percentage of braking. Drums are also protected from the environment and will work when the car needs them.
All of the above and if the motor brake + the drum brakes can block the wheels, disk brakes wouldn’t be better.
I bet some steel parts will be replaced with lighter parts for the Audi Q4 Etron on the same platform.
It also looks like VW is shuffling around their brands, making VW the entry level. the Seat Id3 clone and the skoda id4 clone look like higher priced vehicles.
This is an excellent point. The same MEB skateboard is literally used for all of VW Group's electric lineup - the only thing they change is the number of battery modules and motor configuration. Tesla creates a bespoke chassis for each model. These are fundamentally different engineering decisions and have their own unique pros/cons. It's a bit unfair to compare them directly to each other.
@@michaeldbouck its not used for the whole line up. they have the taycan platform and are working on a bigger SUV platform and a smaller ID2 platform.to replace the triplet.
but the bulk of VW EVs will be build on the MEB.
@@nox5555 The id2 will be subcompact like their polo or the 208 around 4m length, not citycar like the VW eGo around 3,6m.
In the next episode, Sandy tears down his flashlight and eviscerates the manufacturer for all of their poor design choices.
haha, yes
YES, Please Sandy do that! =)
I'll donate my 1980s ABS plastic eveready incadesent flashlight with the original zinc batteries. Maybe you can make it stay lit for more than 5 minutes at a time.
LMAO!!!!!!
What do you call poor design?!
Thank you very much for these very exciting, technical analyses! It is rare to find such in-depth comparisons today.
The internet is full of videos and articles where generalities are discussed in epic breadth - which nobody really needs. But real tear downs by engineers are rare.
Well said!
Yes, by an engineer who has literally no clue.
@Vegeta db. Wow. Pretty aggressive for a login with zero credentials and zero claim to credit. So you know more about auto manufacturing than Sandy, eh? ?? ;
@@MunroLive Well done! - your video, very interesting as always....
@@MunroLive Please comment on the RMO/PCAR alliance impact on global semi-tractor electrification. With pack format & chemistries the leading differentiators, how will they stack up vs Tesla?
I for one am looking forward to Sandy's teardown and critique of his flashlight.
Yes, i fully agree!
*Fleshlight
Best part of a great video
Must be the EM radiation from the vehicle.... poor VW 😉🤣
Flashlight - Made in China
Reports from driving the VW ID3 and ID4 indicate that they have a very good balance between ride and handling, so perhaps we shouldn't critique them too much; VW historically gets that right. Anyhow, the arched upper links in the rear suspension are to clear a longitudinal "frame rail" in the unibody, which is part of the crash structure, while also allowing the links to be positioned as high up in the vehicle as the suspension-geometry gurus wanted them and not having to position that frame rail upward where it would eat into luggage and passenger space. Quite a few other vehicles have similarly-shaped upper links in their rear suspensions and for the same reasons. As for the MacPherson front suspension, VW has plenty of experience with this, and we do also have to remember that this vehicle platform is designed for all-wheel-drive, using a modular design that uses the same suspension parts regardless of whether it has the front drive module or not. The same parts are going to be used on vehicles that will be heavier than the ID4 in the future, and in order to do that, they may seem overbuilt in this one.
Cannot confirm. My previous Audi A8 suspenion was way worse than my 2020 Performance model 3 Performance suspenion. I'm loving it despite there is still room for improvement.
@@or123and way worse in what kind of way? A suspension can be better than another measured on objective standpoints or be just different in feel for one person or the other. I don't think that the M3 performance suspension is a very good suspension, but it may be very well suited to your liking nonetheless
All I know is I have seen my 2006 VW Passat on a lift recently and you would think it was built two years ago. Exhaust system is 100% original and have yet to replace brakes. 128,000 miles so far. Wanting to like the ID-4.
@@or123and I can't confirm that the Model 3's chassis is one of the worse ones compared to other cars. Unbalanced and not very stable at high speeds.
Drum brakes were used as VW claim they will not corrode as badly as disc brakes and they will last longer due to the rear brakes no been used much due to regenerative breaking.
Plus cheaper. Makes sense all round.
Ya, Sandy was very clear that he did not view it as a negative.
Thats great and all but... What about those massive shiny rims? Drum brakes behind? No thanks...
Those drum brakes are sealed and basically maintenance free since EVs barely uses the brakes.
and drums eliminate drag, they pull the shoes back completely from the drum, unlike discs that drag their pads slightly at all times
With all due respect to Mr.Munro, if he doesn’t understand or know why VW has used certain design, it does not necessarily mean it’s wrong or bad, just saying (e.g. VW’s reasoning behind the drum brakes for EV’s & regen). Loved the bleeps, the man’s got a temper😂
"I see they are using a design that has worked for decades, proved by millions of cars sold all over the world. A design that they know how to build. A design that is a little more expensive than what Tesla is doing. I hate it. Can Volkswagen even build cars? Someone hand me an Ensure and tell me what I am looking at again? Oh yeah, an ID.4." - Sandy Monroe.
Sorry but a lot of the criticisms are actually strengths of the MEB platform. Those bent suspension bars are not for mistakes, but to adapt existing components in new applications. I.e. they are used to adapt the MEB platform for this car. You have to remember that this platform will be used by over 20 different products in over 15 million cars by swapping some parts, such as those suspension arms. The same applies throughout the vehicle. Tesla makes 4 cars, VAG makes over 300!
sounds expensiv when i need to send in the car for reairs
@@mrThoreKarlsson not at all. These are common suspension parts that cost 10-50 usd each. The fact that they are different shapes based on the application has little affect on the price. These are things that long term owners may replace once.
Why make 300 mediocre products when you can have a few better ones. See also: Apple.
@@or123and Tech is not equal to cars and peoples needs and preferences are much for varied for cars around the world. A model 3 does not appeal to 99% of Europeans. To succeed as an auto maker you need to have a product adapted to each region. Tesla appeals now enough but is niche. It will take mainstream automakers like VAG to get the masses to adopt EVs. Tesla can steer and propel the market but that’s not enough.
@@davetravels9273 again ... 300 mediocre products don't help anybody.
Munro rule. The people who would normally make this kind of video simply can't afford these vehicles so it's incredible to see a business taking the time to inform us. I guess I'm saying it's appreciated, thank you.
Please get Sandy an endoscope or cam-on-a-stick, so he can show us what he wants us to see, without needing to get Corrie in there too.
or a laser pointer
@@cyclopsvision6370 Yes, was gonna say. A multipurpose laser pointer with a LED beam light.
+1 on the endoscope idea
but atleast Sandy has had both his shots, so we don't need to worry about that.
Yes he need someway to point at it becouse she just like i go up and down and put everything on camera😂
I like the idea of Corrie in there getting bossed around.
Thank goodness for Sandy and this RUclips channel!!!!!!
Thanks Brandon!
Certainly more informative and entertaining than TV here in the UK.
@@MunroLive thanks for the review. You have a powerful position in the automotive world, therefore Maybe you shut give the manufacturer the opportunity to answer to your critics.
Example. Massive front axle for the 4×4 version. Big bars because heavier platform cars will come. Drum brakes because you can almost break by recuperation . Regards.
The stator housing is not painted! the low profile rib pattern is typical used in low pressure die casting, to improve form filling in thin walled designs and over flat walled surfaces which otherwise cools the melt rapidly. This is typically used in Cylinder Head and Cylinder Block LPDC Designs. The grey color(painted color...) comes from the T6 heat treatment, quenched in water. The other motor parts is HPDC, typically not possible to water quench. For form stability and reduced stresses you use T5 stabilization for HPDC. 2h 200deg ish.
Look man... you can't expect Sandy to know these things, and you can't expect Sandy to not guess at those things he doesn't know. Sandy knows he's the smartest and that engineers working at these companies are idiots. They clearly never do things for reasons.
@@updlate4756 Yeah, I mean, what kind of dumbass puts a front subframe in a car?! So much cross car bracing that is totally unnecessary! They really should've done a BMW style front suspension, held to the car by moist paper towels. What even is a MacPherson strut?!
Waiting for Mr. Munro to breakdown the CyberTruck is something I’m willing to pay for. It’s going to be a treat!
i ll have my popcorn ready no doubt
All subscribers need to make about 0,5$ donation to Munro and we buy the tri-motor one for Sandy to disolve upon :) haha!
Already ordered haha!
That would make an awesome VR special!
Money better spent to buy the Silverado EV and do a 3 way tear down with the cyber and rivian.
Will be interesting, but I'm not holding my breath.
Drum brakes on the rear are disappointing from a performance standpoint but seeing as how this is rear propelled and how regeneration will take up most of the rear brake duties it makes sense to install drums. One of the weaknesses of all Tesla models are disc rotors rusting and pads getting stuck in Calipers. Suspension setup was probably chosen to increase interior space and carrying capacity, suv vehicles all tend to be built a little more sturdy than sedans or hatchbacks. Lack of front storage? Fuses are easily accessible, 12v battery can be accessed with the current setup. My guess is that it’s for ease of maintenance and repair.
I know this is an old comment but I just came across this video. You have said all of the exact things I was thinking. I would not be afraid to tow a trailer or camper behind this vehicle and I appreciate the way that they built the suspension and the parts used. It is kind of like being a truck guy but with Electric cars. Who cares if it has a little less range if you know it can take the abuse. Look at the Yugo from years ago . Tiny junky car that was real good on gas.
I personally love the quality aluminum control arms and links in my older Volvo, as a consumer, because they simply last forever in any environment and you just need to change the individual bushings.
Well they may last forever, unfortunately the rest of the car won't.
He also forgets that a model 3 is NOT an ID.4 competitor. Id.4 is a family crossover in the c-segment (e.g. Tiguan, RAV 4) Tesla sits in the BMW 3 series d-segment category. A d-segment car will ALWAYS be a bit more sophisticated design. The fact that in some part Tesla does it cheaper shows that Tesla cuts costs in the wrong areas. "the bracing and suspension design is too strong an high quality... That is a bad thing" Honestly this guy might have experience but that sounds like nit picking to me.
@@Astke Sandy Said basically the same thing about the frame of the Model 3. Elon's Reply was basically "Yea, we fired that guy". What Sandy is basically saying is "You could do the same thing with less weight/cost", based on the Model 3 teardown (good stuff if you haven't seen it already).
@@Astke he didn't say model 3, he said Tesla, could have meant the model Y. He also said VW is like Honda/Toyota, and Tesla is higher end like the BMW
@@mclason Well a VW drives a certain way. I have driven many different cars in a very short time (3 years). Renaults, Volvos, VWs, Toyotas and BMWs. And the VW always gave the strongest and most stable impression.
Maybe the design is like that BECAUSE it makes the car drive in a certain "VW" way. If it ain't broken don't fix it. One of the reasons why VW still sells a lot, especially in Europe, is BECAUSE of the way they ride and feel. Strong, stable and unflappable. And that is partially thanks to their suspension/chassis design and tuning. That is most likely the reason for why they made the ID.4 as it is. They could have taken a streamlined cheaper route that Tesla made but it might have made it ride like a Tesla as well.... which is not great. What Tesla does works for them and that is great. But that doesn't mean other brands should suddenly do it as well. Also Elon is not an engineer. He is a manager/entrepreneur. What he says could mean anything.
The ID.4’s front suspension is no different than a BMW 3-Series or X3 which to this day still uses McPherson strut front suspension, as does a 911. You can easily add adaptive dampers too if you want to offer a ride quality that has a range of adjustments to it. It’s just a simpler design. Tesla chose to use double wishbone front suspension not because it saved money but because it is perceived to be a superior product. It’s what Mercedes and Audi use on their similarly sized C-Class/A4 models, but it costs more and requires more complex links and bushings. VW uses front struts on every single car sold in the US today from the compact Golf hatchback to the full size Atlas SUV. The ID.4 is underpinned by the MEB platform which is going to underpin VW’s cost effective EV models. I wouldn’t expect to see double wishbones up front on an economy car. Honda got rid of them on the Accord 3 generations ago because of cost savings AND have only just now added them back to the Acura TLX, what some might consider a luxury car version of the Accord. There is no benefit to ride quality or handling that your average soccer mom/dad driving their kids around town is going to notice. Double wishbone costs more to fix, weighs more and in my own experience is more prone to wear. Struts are cheaper and still offer fantastic handling and fully independent suspension, they also tend to offer more clearance in the wheel wells allowing for a tighter turning radius.
Also, the rear suspension aluminum arms look very similar to what you see on a Golf or Jetta with multilink rear suspension. I don’t quite know if I believe those are there due to a mistake or if they’re there on purpose.
I’m sort of surprised he’s composing about some of these things yet he seemed to nearly 💦 his pants over Faraday Future’s butterfly doors that obviously are expensive and overly complex.
Update: here’s a list of luxury cars (including BMWs) that use MacPherson struts:
Audi:
A3/S3/RS3
TT
Q3/RSQ3
Q4 e-tron
BMW:
228i/M235i GranCoupe
230i/M240i/M2
330i/M340i/M3
430i/M435i/M4
X3 30i, X3 M40i, X3M
X4 30i, X4 M40i, X4 M
Z4 30i, Z4 M40i
Cadillac:
CT4 2.0T, CT4-V, CT4-V Blackwing
XT4
XT5
XT6
Genesis:
G70
KIA:
Stinger GT
Jaguar:
E-Pace
Land Rover:
Evoque
Discovery Sport
Lexus:
ES250/ES350
NX300
RX350
Mercedes:
A220/A35 AMG
CLA250/CLA35 AMG/CLA45 AMG
GLA250/GLA35 AMG/GLA 45 AMG
GLB250/GLB 35 AMG
MINI (BMW):
EVERY SINGLE MODEL
Porsche:
718 Boxster
718 Cayman
911
TOYOTA:
Supra (BMW Z4 derivative)
VOLVO:
Polestar 2
XC40
C40
The list goes on…
If it's good enough for Mercedes and Audi then I'll take that on the Tesla. I think you just insulted women who drive their kids to soccer by the way. You might want to apologize.
@@bluetoad2668 If MacPherson struts are good enough for a Porsche 911 or a BMW 3-Series, C-Class (previous generation), etc. it’s good enough for a family crossover used to carry kids around to soccer games. A strut front suspension isn’t a bad design and it’s less expensive to build, fix and has less parts.
Sandy kept saying the ID.4 was not on par with what you see on a BMW, referencing the Model 3/Y’s double wishbone front suspension, yet the direct competitor to the Model 3 from BMW, the 3-series uses struts instead of double wishbone front suspension. I can tell you that driving a 3-series back to back with my Model 3 Performance, the 3-series is the more enjoyable drivers car. My daily driver is a Model 3 Performance, so I’m not suggesting double wishbone is inferior. My point with all this is that Sandy is trying to tell people the suspension design is garbage and subpar to the “BMW quality” suspension found on a Tesla. Yet he leaves out arguably some of the best handling cars on the road use that exact same design. I’ve owned cars with MacPherson struts and double wishbone. Just having a double wishbone doesn’t mean you suddenly have handling or ride quality benefits over a strut. You can find plenty of excellent handling and riding cars with either setup. I just think Sandy needs to give better context about things because I’m sure most people watching these videos know 1/1000th as much about cars as I do and they will take whatever he says as the word of god.
Look, these suspension descisions are always going to be a trade off, usually to do with price and space requirements. I think Tesla had the space up front and so went with what most people would agree is a better system at the front given that they still have space for a frunk. Porsche needed space up their too in the 911 and hence the struts and torsion setup.
I'm not saying that the struts are bad, it's just if I could I would design in double bones - design is a trade off.
Look, these suspension descisions are always going to be a trade off, usually to do with price and space requirements. I think Tesla had the space up front and so went with what most people would agree is a better system at the front given that they still have space for a frunk. Porsche needed space up their too in the 911 and hence the struts and torsion setup.
I'm not saying that the struts are bad, it's just if I could I would design in double bones - design is a trade off.
4:49 I respectfully disagree that the largest carmaker in the world "made a mistake" in designing the suspension. And I am not even a VW fan. Unless you can get into the head of the design engineer, you cannot know every factor that went into the numerous design decisions. That's analogous to me (an FAA-Certificated A&P Mechanic) looking at an aircraft wing flap with a flashlight and drawing conclusions as to why it was designed without knowing the many reasons WHY it ended up the way it did.
Sandy doesn't seem to be an engineer the more I see his videos, we need a younger more experienced person on this channel. Sandy knows basically nothing about the id4, I bet he didn't even watched the release videos.
Same. I kinda always disliked VW, but no way in hell that's a design mistake. It has to do with suspension geometry and "baseplate" that's likely going to mount in various different models.
Drum brakes are for winter roads with salt.. Its a closed system, and it don't rust.
likely the same with the painted motor, lots of salt and snow in countries like Norway
@@DarwinChaug Corrosion is a big problem in the south of Norway, its like driving in slush of salt and snow.
@@DarwinChaug it’s aluminium.
Disk brakes work just fine in winter! im living in a northern country in Europe. No problem at all. Thats just a major fail. Full size SUV with drum brakes. No thanks 😂
@@lifestyle4dividends776
When you the motor is used to brake (and recover energy), the drum brakes are sufficient to block wheels so more braking power would be useless.
3:18 drum brakes on the rear axle are almost immune to gravel and sand thrown up from the front wheels. Disc brakes on the front are not assaulted by sand and gravel as much. Especially if cost is a concern, rear drum brakes can be a good choice in terms of lower maintenance costs over the life of the vehicle. Due to the laws of physics, the weight shift forward during braking means that rear brakes only do about 35% of the work anyway.
True, and with regenerative braking in EV's, the rear brakes will be even less of a problem (heat wise).
Drum brakes work well with less pressure and are great for emergency brake holding power. On a rear wheel drive Electric vehicle they are not going to be used much at all due to regen braking. If you are in ice and snow or slick conditions you don't want much braking effect on the rear. you want the rear wheel traction to stay there to prevent spin out in a slight turn at speed.
It is a proven design.
And most of it is done by re-gen braking anyway why makes disc brakes rust more quickly.
Sandy, been thinking for a long time what I can comment on in all the videos you have produced, I look forward to each and every video, as a technician I am deeply in debt to you for helping keeping me sane with your informative videos during lockdown in the UK, so all I can say is a big "THANKYOU".
I love his videos. Complaint about over-engineering on the car make me glad I've owned VWs for 54 years now. Still have my 1970 beetle I bought while I was in the army in Berlin. At 235,000 miles we did a body off restoration. Best in show award. I don't think I've got enough time left on this earth to keep my ID.4 that's on order that long, but I'll give it a try.
Love the bloopers. More please.
You got it!
@@MunroLive I can see you listen to your audience well! Saw a hint people like Sandy loses his shit, now we have a blooper reel. Very nicely done! ;)
The whole video was a blooper.
I think the extra strength and free space are there for the front motor when they bring out the AWD version
If I recall, Tesla uses a different front cradle for the none-AWD variants of their vehicles. (Unless they changed this to simplify manufacturing!)
Regardless, I'm not sure how VW is filling out that 'engine bay' so much! Remember the AWD Model 3 still has a good sized frunk, whereas this bay is pretty much totally full.
@@VoxelLoop some other reviewers mentioned that VW has a smaller front bay hood section so that they can maximize the passenger / cabin space. Small hood = cramped bay to fill it out. I will take a bigger cabin space over a frunk any day !
@@VoxelLoop The hood of the id4 is much shorter than a tesla. That is one reason...
@@brandonnixon7105 Actually people have measured it and it's not the case, base of windscreen to nose the difference is tiny.
@@sayanchx Haha, that was me mentioning the shorter front bay hood. Someone else mentioned that it’s also much higher than the Model 3 hood which I have to agree with.
I wish we would hear someday why VW designed the ID4 like they did. I can’t believe that there wasn’t a good reason their design decisions.
Love the out takes. The last one gave me a good laugh. "Why is this thing blinking? I never have these issues!"
May have been mentioned by others in the comments, but the main reason for the drum brakes is due to regenerative braking. A traditional braking system is 60/40 balance. In ev the motor driven wheels braking force is for the most part less than 30%. There are exceptions. Some current EV's are suffering from brake disc corrosion on the motor driven wheels due to lack of braking force required.
Sandy is entitled to his opinions however he has never sat in executive leadership meetings cost justifying a volume BEV architecture program that will be used for a variety of vehicle types being assembled on the same production line globally as compromises will be made in the architecture design to ensure assembly lines can be interchange for various body styles. While he praises architectures designed for a frunk, bear in mind that Fremont based manufacturer has only produced two variants off of two very expensive architectures (each).
I am positive that the VW engineers know how to design suspensions , they have had plenty practise over the years . Tests results have raved about the comfort, quietness and steering directness of this vehicle which is no doubt partly due to the suspensions design.
It’s remarkable that is not mentioned. Almost all reviews mention the great driving comfort compared to the M3 and Y. Here you see why it drives better. And, is that then a bad design? I don’t think so. It’s a clear choice.
In reference to suspension, I have driven both the VW ID4 and MY. The ID drives smoother by far. It feels like a normal car whereas the Tesla was too stiff and jarring.
Tesla has a sporty setup. Exactly what I want for a 300-500 hp car.
My model 3 suspension is horrible!
Unpleasent to drive at low speed (way to stiff)
And an unsafe feeling above 160 kmh.
My Golf 7 GTE fealt plantet at 230kmh with my model 3 it feels like im jumping around and loosing ground contact all the time.
Nothing near to a sportscar setup.
Im getting a KW V3 suspenion installed next week then the cars suspension will be perfect 👍🏼
VW has been making cars that go on Aurobahns since their inception, so I dont think they need Tesla designers to teach them how to make proper suspensions.
Sandy it's a pleasure to have you show us around like this - best thing on RUclips in my opinion!
Thanks Munro and team. Appreciate all your informative videos.
Glad you like them!
Who knew the blooper reel was as golden as the content
Love the bloopers at the end! Thanks for blessing us with your expertise Sandy :)
"Tear it down!!" .... "Tear it down!!" .... "Tear it down!!" .... "Tear it down!!" .... -The entire comment section shouting from the audience. Do it Sandy!!!
What is called here as over-designed I would call instead safe-design, in contrast to Teslas under-designed suspension parts, drive shafts and sticking braking pads. Other owners are happy to have survived breaking suspension parts at 130 mph. In my 2014 S85 the hand brake caliber failed after just 40.000 mls, the brake pad stuck to disc every morning, the discs were full of rust. After 70.000 mls the suspension had to be replaced, because they used cheap material. This was out of warranty for about $2.000. On my 2019 MX100D the drive shaft has to be replaced every 10 - 20.000 mls, because it is a design fail and under-designed, that even hasn't be fixed with the new Raven. In 5 years of Tesla vehicles I had more problems with suspension, brakes and drivetrain than in the about 800.000 mls I have driven in 30 years before, where I had exactly 0 issues with all this parts on a wide range of vehicles. Tesla is good with electronics, but bad with mechanical design. So be careful when calling something over-designed, please.
If you have ever owned German vehicles they are known to be over engineered and highly complex. That’s why they are so expensive and unreliable. I’ve owned many German vehicles over the years and they all constantly end up in the repair shop. Too much cheap plastics, over engineered parts and hundreds of control modules. Not to mention there are many recalls due to faulty unsafe parts.
Is Tesla perfect definitely not. But considering they haven’t been making cars for over 50 years like all other legacy autos they are doing pretty well so far.
@@JAM_2024 The vehicles I drove over more than 30 years before Tesla were: BMW, Chrysler, Citroen, Mercedes, Peugeot, Seat, and SMART. Mit none of them I had so many problems and unintentional shop visits as with Tesla. With none of them I had any breakdown's, with Tesla I had 3 of them within 3 months. I had to drive loaners for more than 3 months. And in contrast to Tesla all the brands have a real service that is reachable, and in case the cars can also be repaired at independent shops for acceptable rates.
Cannot confirm your views. I ditched an Audi A8 for a performance model 3 and oh boy that P3D suspenion is SO much better! Still room for improvement but pretty good. by far not every german car, even premium ones, have such a good suspenion. Tesla is well balanced especially 2021 Performance model 3. Recently some pro drivers compared it against Taycan and they were delighted how well it did despite cost is a third.
Sandy is.becoming like me it’s quite refreshing , that flash lite probably would end up in orbit 👍😂
Totally justified reaction to that blinking torch. At 65 I feel that gentlemen of our vintage have experienced far too many inconveniences. A future episode on some of the worlds most useless and unfriendly products may prove popular.
Sometimes is «old», proven technology is better than making a new design, only to be «new». And the end, the driving characteristics are more important, than if the technology is «new» or «old» (proven).\
Maybe the suspension differences make the vw less noisy? Although vws are not exactly known to be quiet cars (road noise)
Are you guys going to go through the Ford Mustang Mach-E like this aswell? Would be interesting to hear Sandys take on a new car from a company he worked at.
Maybe, if we get enough people interested in see it!
Ford is American.
He only has bad things to say against the EU cars.
Naturally, he does not take EU weather conditions and regulations into account. That is why we have a lot of his "I don't know why...." rumblings. Yes Sandy, YOU don't know.
I saw a few mach e and the read suspention its under design terrible...
@@PinchOfLuck That's not true. While he liked the Model Y he really hated the Model 3. So yes he also criticised American cars. Also normally cars are designed differently for different markets. If for example, the EU forces you to put in more steel in certain places because of regulations normally you wouldn't carry that over to other markets. That's unnecessary additional cost.
@@JackONeil12 I will be interested to see what changes there may be when they start building the ID.4 in the US -- since the cars built in the US will be mostly for the North American market, I am guessing they may remove the "extras" required by the EU.
What you don't expect to see is probably the reason why ID4 rides WAY better than the harsh and rough model Y.
Another reason for drum brakes is that the rear ones get little use in a normal car due to weight transfer, and even less in an electric one due to all the regenerative braking.
So VW has pulled a clever durability trick: drum brakes tend to suffer less from the rust accumulation that comes with infrequent use, while discs and their pads suffer a lot from that. In places were there's a lot of salt on the roads,there are tons of EV, especially Teslas, with brakes that need to be thrown out and replaced well before they're worn out due to all the corrosion.
Yeah, im glad they used drum brakes
And he should know that.
When disc brakes first became mainstream they were on the front wheels only on many cars - too expensive to put front and rear. The disc/drum combo worked for the reasons you give. My 1970 Ford LTD braked nicely for the size car it was. Bought it used as my first car, kept it a long time - and was glad the cost of brake replacement was kept ~low that way.
These videos just tickle my brain in just the right way. I love efficient manufacturing and design.
The Engineers of that ID4 know what they were doing when it comes to steering geometry and stuff like that.
You've obviously never driven a VW :D
Sandy gets so flustered when a design fails his expectations, both on the VW and the flashlight. LOL Love your shows Sandy!!
Exactly. His opinions are not absolute. Others might disagree with shit he engineered in the past, so it's all subjective.
The ID3 and probably also the ID4 has excellent isolation against road noise. Can ist maybe be, that the non explainable things are for better noise comfort ? For me its fascinating how silent my ID3 is compared to my Hyundai Ioniq.
Road noise is somewhere in the middle based on Bjorns test... Its quite impressive to around 80km/h but passed that, its even worse then some cheaper cars... Its good but nothing special compared to other new EVs...
@@DG-uv3zw this would mean that Hyundai Ioniq is extremely bad because my ID3 is really excellent. On summer tires I don't hear on most roads anything from the street. I hear only wind noise
@@DG-uv3zw Probably due to the tyres?
@@gkfsns Don`t know about Ioniq. Just stating known facts... You can check Bjorns table with noise tests...
@@DG-uv3zw the Noise table from Björn doesn't make a difference between road noise and wind noise. I think not only the dB(A) is important but also the kind of noise, so where it comes from. I don't use a noise meter in the car but if I change between them, the ID3 feels much better on noise comfort. Don't understand me wrong, I had heavy software issues I would nobody recommend the ID3 or ID4 until they have left Beta state, but on things like noise they made a good job (I think)
Nice ending with behind the scenes clips, love it :) I was hesitating whether to mention this, I hope you will take it as a compliment, which is as I mean it. It is incredible how somebody your age understood the power of RUclips.
Glad you enjoyed it!
@@MunroLive I like you style, your honesty... Watched your interview with Elon :)
Love your breakdowns Sandy!!
Thank you!
Would love to have bits like these in the end of every video. Sandy is awesome!
It kind of looks like to me as if they played around with the stiffness of the top rear suspension arms in order to manipulate the tire position under high load. Since they like to setup the car to understeer even with RWD this seems like a classical VW move to save costs on the overall suspension kinematics. Tesla has a classical equal stiffness multilink design which is very dependend on the position of the suspension mounts on the car to be low in order to increase camber under higher load. Since the id4 is a suv with more ground clearance than even the model y this was not an option. You are comparing apples to oranges here.
Thank you!
I literally was just at a shopping website where numerous people were complaining about not being able to buy a simple flashlight that didn’t have all the silly blinking modes! Sandy is not alone in his frustration. 😅
The end was great very relatable
It looks like another masterpice arrived. Will watch after dinner...Munro videous are the best after food...like a good wine ...helps with digestion.
Hope you enjoy
@@MunroLive I did enjoy it, after all where do you see the ID4 underneath. Thanks for this. Now "dont turn it on, take it apaaaart! "
The only fault of this car and the flashlight too , is that they are not made by Tesla... I hope you did not fire the guy in the back for daring to appear in your video 😀😀😀
So far as know the tesla axis is not known for their durability. Also the rear disc breaks on the teslas have big rust issues. ... And no one needs a multi-link front axis in a comfort SUV. It is a VW and not a high performance BMW with Nürburgring abilities. :-)
But it is interesting to see the different view from a engineer like Sandy. The rear axis point of view is also new for me as a VW fan. You see everybody has potential. :-)
Love the last "blipping" segment. I do value all the insights and work you and your team put on Sandy.
Thanks so much!
Couldn't wait for the next video!
Thanks for tuning-in Matt.
Disc Brakes have one disadvantage for BEV. They need Energy to free them. Drumm-Brakes got a spring for it. Thanks to recuperation of the motor the aft brakes have a very light load. So having drumm brakes there is no disadvantage on the braking side and an advantage on the energy level.
The new Audi Q4 etron and GT have rear drum brakes also. A definite advantage for quality EV's
Yep, we need more bloopers Sandy. Hilarious!
The irony is they keep praising the multi-link front suspension of the Model 3 by saying it's "like a BMW", but the equivalent BMW model (3 series) actually has McPherson struts just like the ID4.
@Kevin Smith Agreed. You have to step up to a BMW 5 series to get comparable suspension to the Mkdel 3.
@Kevin Smith Actually to my knowledge you can't achieve as tight turning radiuses on dw's compared to phersons. There's usually that flipside of coin in all designs. Dw's also generally speaking heavier assembly of those two. But sure dw's have their good points too.
cool that Tesla has a cheaper 5 bar link but the Tesla also comes with a 20% bigger turning circle so theres probably a reason why VW has done it like they did.
No reliable charging network but complaining about turning circles. No more questions :-)
Volkswagen made a mistake? A company that has made cars for 75 years vs Teslas brutal 13 years making cars. Tesla is a software company thats trying to make cars. VW is a car company trying to make software.
Yes they are very good at selling old-fashioned tech to the masses.
Peep the FUV in the background👀 6:10
Archimoto?
@@lemongavine In June 2020 Munro & Associates announced they will be working with Arcimoto to refine their design and production
I would love to watch a 1 hour video full of outtakes
Loving the out-takes. :^)
haha, the blooper reel is gold. Great content as always.
I would expect the additional struts to be a placeholder for the upcoming dual motor awd models. High commonality, crash behavior and structural integrity is what a new platform is for, especially when used this widely and regardless of weight size and power, no?
i love the gaffs at the end. keep them coming.
Thanks!
The "Technical Difficulties" are great😂. The car is so so.
It still rides more comfortably than a Tesla though. Tesla cuts cost at suspension quality. Which is one of the reasons for the price, even though it is a segment higher than the ID.4. ID.4 = RAV 4/Tiguan. Model 3 = BMW 3-series. That it is cheap That it is cheap says more about the cost cutting of Tesla.
@@Astke The suspension design was one the things Munro questioned on this. The Model 3 has a harder sportier suspension than most cars sold in the US, but compares to most European cars sold in Europe. I have not driven the ID.4 yet, but agree with Munro that the car could have been designed different and thus have higher range at the same or lower price. Also it is somewhat early to make real life comparisons, the next 12 month will tell us more about the car and how owners like it.
@@RMTFamily The Model 3 even has a harsher ride than most cars sold in Europe. Including the smaller cars we drive here. It is pretty much like it never settles or stays calm. While even the sportiest cars in the same segment (e.g. m340i/M3) have suspension that can make the car feel pretty steady and calm when they need to be. That is the difference and that is why normal high end suspension systems are usually slightly over engineered. It is to make it work in as many situations as they can.
@@Astke This is true, I remember a TV show with Alexander Bloch at VOX where they tested Model 3 & ID.3 and Kia eSoul on a special bumpy test stretch and the Tesla chassis jumped around like a wild horse while the ID.3 was so much smoother.
lookes they they are really putting Alot of effort into it !!! Go VoltsVolk !
Love the videos. Keep them coming!
Thanks for watching Eric!
Even the bloopers are awesome to watch.
Wonder if the hollow aluminum part in the rear suspension was a necessary adaptation needed to make the ID.4 feasible on the MEB-platform? You can only stretch a platform across so many models/sizes before some aspects become suboptimal.
Yeah I would also think that they did want it to stay mostly identical across many different cars so it still has the low hanging arches on the ID.4 where it does not need them.
Also knowing the many issues the axle/suspension stuff has on Teslas I guess I would trust this a bit more.
Just love my Munro Live. Wonderful episode Sandy!!!
Thanks Daulton
Do you really need double wishbone suspension in a family crossover?
Ok but then you buy a Porsche, BMW or Audi not a VW
the outtakes at the end are friggin' priceless.
I saw high costs and complexity in these designs. I would really like to be wrong. Best from Germany.
Meh, I saw a Golf or B6+ Passat... with a battery pack under the body. It is all it is. Tesla is closer to an Audi with multilinks. In the long term this will of course be cheaper imo, but of course for many new car buyers the Tesla makes much more sense.
I think VW (apart from Audi, Porsche ofc) does not sell any multilink cars anymore. The last were the B5 Passat and the Phaeton (e.g A8, Bentley). Now only double wishbone at best. Some platform share Audi SUVs also do double wishbone. I think only some MLB-platform cars have multilink.
@@rkan2 Agreed, except Tesla has fallen down so much on build quality and service, I am seeking alternatives. The engineering of the ID.4 is not impressive, but that is only one piece of the puzzle.
@@stevebakker6884 I agree. The ID 4 is built with good quality . You can call it over-Enginering, I just call it quality. This car has a way higher driving comfort then the model 3 . That comes with a price.
@@stevebakker6884 Where have you been. Tesla may have had their issues, but even Sandy Munro stated that the new Model Y can compete with any German car in quality, including paint.
I think we need an indepth review of that damned flashlight, lol. But seriously, Sandy , you are my favorite channel to watch these days! I'm excited for the next vid
Thanks Tuur!
I think Sandy has lost the plot here. What he just doesn't seem to understand is that the ID.4 is but one of *many* models that are to be made from Volkswagen's MEB platform. Saying that the curved link is a "mistake" is being ignorant of the fact that they are coming up with a platform that is designed to range from small hatchbacks to large people movers. VW isn't dumb; they came up with one part that will work in all the applications. These seat of the pants takes make for good RUclips, but they're not very good engineering analyses. I hope the final report has better justification about what's actually good and bad with this car.
Sandy’s an automotive engineer, & he’s looking at it from that perspective. If those links Sandy pointed out made sense in a modern, wheels-up design, he’d say so.
@@TraditionalAnglican He might be an engineer, but hes also from a different engineering era. Hes not the absolute on anything. Not understanding something in his expertise doesnt mean it's bad or wrong. And if it ends up being wrong, they will change it. I'm sure Tesla went thru the same over the years.
You’re assuming that Sandy doesn’t understand what a “Platform” is - He worked as a Chief Engineer for Ford which has used various platforms for multiple cars & trucks since Henry Ford was alive!
As Sandy showed during an interview with Ford’s Chief Designer for the Mustang-E Project, non-vertically integrated Auto companies have long-term relationships with suppliers which often dictate when & where particular parts will be used, even when those parts are less efficient & add cost, complexity & inefficiency (& make cars, etc. take longer to manufacture) - These have been the Cardinal Sins of Engineering since the time of the of the early Pharaohs 5000 years ago. The Cardinal Sins of Engineering are as immutable as the Cardinal Sins of Christianity…
@@TraditionalAnglican I'm not sure what Sandy knows or doesn't know anymore. On the Hyundai Kona review video, he was driving along with his turn signal on and wondering why the Lane Keep Assist wasn't working. He then said that Hyundai should get rid of volume knobs. Both of these things show a stunning lack of understanding when it comes to both how cars work and what customers want.
As far as suppliers, I can tell you haven't worked in the auto industry. Suppliers do not have an "off the shelf" control arm where VW or Ford or whoever can take it or leave it. Each part is designed for the application it's going to be used in. Ford designed the Mach E the way they did because their priority was getting a car to market as fast as possible. That meant using a bunch of parts bin stuff from the Escape rather than designing a bespoke part for this car which takes longer. You can bet that future EVs are going to be *far* more efficient to produce.
VW was under a similar time crunch with the MEB platform and had the added complication of needing it to work for small city cars as well as larger family haulers. Sandy has admitted he does not read Automotive News or any similar industry publication. Thus, he may be completely unaware that the ID.4 is but one of many EVs that VW Group is producing.
If you want to talk about "Sins", I would rank beta testing a "Full Self Driving" program on public roads with other road users who haven't consented to be part of an experiment to be a far worse infraction than re-using coolant piping. But I know that's an unpopular opinion around here.
@@TraditionalAnglican Good point. I'm sure there are lots of politics behind the scenes. Sandy does understand most, but how many years ago and it was Ford. European companies have different designs due to various reasons from their realities.
Those outtakes at the end...I died. 😂😂😂
First he critiques VW for overspending on the structure and the critiques for not spending enough on suspension and other parts. Seems like the "right way" is the Tesla way and all others are suboptimal?
This series is amazing 🍿 keep em comming!
Will do!
the front should be able to hold a "second/dual" motor no?
Yes, the id4 will get a awd gtx version next year.
Also the Skoda Enyaq iV, Audi etron Q4 and later Cupra Tavascan.
LED's powered by DC voltage tend to blink when the capacitor fails.. (voltage interruptions) see that often with cheap capacitors used in less expensive LED torches.
Sandy is the best - could you imagine having him do a home inspection? LOL
I was waiting for this
Thanks for tuning-in Giorgio.
"These are things that you should be able to design out." Apparently VW didn't watch the video where Elon says, "The best part is no part. The best process is no process..." I love the bloopers - keep 'em coming! Thank you, Sandy and Team, I'm so glad your back for more instructional videos. You have changed the way I look at things... for the better!
I’m sure VW designed those parts for a reason. It might be other safety regulations or inherent rust prevention or something else.
Legacy auto cannot let go of it's old thinking... for all the talk of "new platforms/architectures" they seem to have twice the part count of Tesla for an equivalent vehicle!
Stop talking nonsense, tesla used 5 links where vw used only one piece, the drum brakes are way simpler, cheaper they are sealed and maintenance free....
@@GregRobsonUK bullshit, we all know that EVs have significantly way less parts than ICE, i see no issue with the vw EV platform. Its nothing compared to the ICE platform.
UBD tore an ID.3 apart and adjusted their target price for VW shares significantly up after that. They estimate that VW will be able to make 15% margin on their EV’s. That’s no small potatoes compared to Tesla that produces at break even at best.
I'm pretty sure Volkswagen reverse engineered a Tesla Model 3 several years ago. I'm sure they learned a lot from it about batteries and power electronics, but it seems they weren't willing to learn about the parts of the car they already knew how to make. As a result, we get a typically-overengineered VW body.
So what explains the reported more comfortable ride in the ID4 versus the Tesla’s? Rather unexpected given the inspection of the parts?
From what I can tell the ID4 platform was pushed out a year or 2 sooner than they wanted to. You might be seeing things that were done to just get it out the door vs quality engineering to get it right than out the door.
Sure, they can now start to refine it year by year.
Wrong, the car drives and handles excellently. The proof in the pudding is in the eating. Not a door but a mega factory.
I suspect you aren't too far from the truth. It looks like VW did some sub-optimal things to speed up the whole process of getting it out the door. Although I do care about the environment.
@@NotNowLater DOOR.... educated top tech insight there boys, I am falling over the detail. Fear does strange things to people.
@@jason-uo5xs The only fear coming across is yours. Personally I don't have a dog in the EV fights so I don't really care. What I do care about is the future of the environment.
Love the bloopers and as always the content!
Yay, thank you!
So really missed points that other videos have done better. 1.) Drum brakes are there because it is a sealed unit, performance is not needed on the rear due to the motor being there and performing most of the breaking effort. The benefit of the sealed unit is that road grime can't get into it as it rarely will be used. This is a major issue with disc brakes on EV's they don't get used. Also means that the rear drum should last the life of the car. 2.) The car simply far and a way out does the ride quality found in a Tesla, it was engineered that way. It is also designed to tow which the Model 3 is not.
@Kevin Smith Go drive the ID.4 then come back and talk to me. The ID.4 is not a performance car, it is a general purpose SUV with almost he same cargo capacity of a Model X yet rides almost as good as a Volvo with air suspension and has seats that are just as good as Volvo. I can't speak for soccer moms but I can tell you that not everyone wants a performance car. Tesla are generally awesome but their fan boys are worse than worse jerk BMW owner.
@Kevin Smith Okay but please don't be sexist against women with regards to soccer mom's. it is pretty terrible move. Use women to make fun of a car that you've never driven shows how weak of a person you are. Grow up.
Munro : "I do not know what that is !". Answer : It is called quality !
There is nothing wrong with the front suspension using a strut suspension with steel control arms. Similar design to mk7 gti/golf r. If you are expecting double wishbone, while better it is more expensive. As for the rear, why do you mention the curve in the aluminum links to be a mistake?
MacPherson strut front suspension, it’s been good enough for every 911 Porsche since the 964 until the very latest 992 model. Certainly good enough for a budget BEV SUV. ( And before the Porsche fanboys jump on me 992GT3 yes I know before someone mentions, and for additional dork points did you know the DLS has double wishbone front).
About the Tesla suspension: A mechanic that changed my wheels, said the Tesla suspension was one of a Audi A4 from the Year 2010. What do you say to that?
So 11 years later, VW (who own Audi) design a more expensive and performance substandard suspension for their new ev, something doesn't add up
The suspension is from a Lotus engineer.
"The person who tuned the Model 3’s suspension could easily be an “F1 Prince.” Munro on Autoline.
If you want an opinion about the architecture of your home - ask the plumber. You will get the plumber's opinion.
It's similar - the guy is very good at changing wheels. And you've got the opinion of the guy who changes wheels about the suspension. You can also ask your dentist.
Love your videos. Subscribed 😄👍
Seems to be a pretty good car with an overcomplex design. Can't wait for Teslas produced here in Germany! They will force our manufacturers to move forward.
If they can finish the construction of their factory... They are facing huge German bureaucracy.
@@pxidr I think it's not a matter of "if" but "when" they will get the final approvals for the factory.
This is not the first factory built in Germany nor the last.
@@gisobo Berlin Airport took over a decade to complete. My guess is that most of that had to do with getting through governmental red tape.
@@korswe BER was a mess mainly because of mismanagement and incompetence. Keeping up to the evolving regulations over the years and years of delay came just on top of that.
In making space for the battery as a non-structural element they were forced to add thickness and build the frame up in the space immediatly around the battery. This added the under side cross carriages.
A lot of cars use MacPherson Strut front suspension, even BMW (3 series etc)
Mostly due to cost and packaging. Takes up less space and eliminates upper control arms. The disadvantage is that camber control on compression is absolute sheeeeeet. There are ways around this like to make the suspension travel so stiff and short that there is minimal compression and have good handling or let the suspension travel and not care about camber control and have handling be bad. If you want it both ways you need some sort of double wishbone or multilink.
@@Robbie6298 aha, thats the reason for teslas famed comfy ride.
@@thomasgerber1472 I thought teslas have notoriously rough and noisy ride :)
The drum brakes on my Prius rear have over 120k miles on them and they are not even 50% worn. I replaced the front brakes at 108k. Braking off the motor just makes brakes last forever.
Is the extra structure up front needed for the upcoming two-motor AWD version?
That was my guess too. Amazed he did not get that.
@@ronaldderooij1774 Hes biased towards Tesla. Yes, Tesla has very good designs, but it doesnt qualify others as not good. Tesla isnt a reference point to other makers.