same here, I went to Gruul with a hunter, a class that I only use as a farmchar and I have basically no hunter skills at all. I used a hunter coz with my rogue I had no chance of finding a grp. I ended up being 11th in dps while a decent rogue was on 7. People are simply nuts, they belive in any, how ever stupid, meta without testing it themselves. And btw I was not the worst hunter and I was ahead of a few warlocks too...
Yesterday Kara, I was the only melee in the group. One hunter, the rest mages and Warlock. The average DPS in the group was probably around 1k. Warlocks often times did 2-3.5 k on mobs. I was usually sitting at 550-700 dps in Boss fights and was always the lowest. Everyone hovered around 800-1.5k on average. Its truly depressing.
Felt the same about my Kara run as a rogue. Was totally fine, topped a few fights, was always competitive. Thanks for being a content creator not pushing the "must be meta" agenda.
If you watch Willie's video, he talks about how the template gear wasn't even hit capped for some classes and was mostly garbo. These numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.
End of the day, if you know what you’re doing and you’re putting in the effort to min-max, you’ll be near the top. The spreadsheets only tell us who has the edge. You know your stuff.
The point of the video is not Rogues are better than hunters and warlocks. The point is that rogues are perceived as being very weak, and I don't believe this to be the case. Furthermore, even on melee unfriendly fights, good melee players can outperform mediocre and poor ranged players.
Agree! People compare class/specs to each other. The popular opinion of rogues being bad is just that they dont bring much to the raid and are outperformed by 90% of the other classes if equal gear/skill level. Thats not to say that top rogue cant beat avarage Joe locks early on.Even more, if your guild is not pushing for speed kills, play whatever.I just wouldnt want to be in a guild as a Rogue where im top dps in Phase 1 :)
9:25 exactly, other classes bring damage AND raid buffs. Rogues just bring damage. So if they're mid-pack, or even top of the score card, they didn't bring up the rest of the raid.
It mostly to do with the raid comp planning in 25s, realistically if u want all the good buffs/debuffs and a good group synergy , you can only really bring 3 melee dps that can get benefit from a group comp, 1 of them pretty much has be a ret , so youre left with 2 spots for melee dps , if u want any more you will have to gimp a lot of your utility/ how many healers you can bring , and you also gimp the tanks by having to squish them together into 1 group , and all that just to bring a few extra melee dps, that yes are pretty competetive if they can get good melee uptime but dont really bring anything other than damage similar to ranged , you can see its just a nightmare in terms of raid comp planning , obv viable but not ideal
That's like saying average classic guild goes into a raid with 22 warriors, because it's BiS. Everyone is freaking out about how melee is gonna be the meme of TBC while they do Naxx with 5 mediocre at best warlocks with 5 dps warriors. If I ever hear someone complain that they can't kill a boss in any raid because they have some melee in raid and not because they suck, then they suck.
@@ondrejgotz3414 Well the raids are going to be quite different to tbc so i wouldnt even compare classic to it but melees wont suck in tbc , infact they will be the top classes if threat is good and the fights are short AND its a melee friendly fight + the scaling into later content is pretty insane but like i said its more of a logistics problem in 25s , you just need to bring a certain amount of classes for their utility/buffs/debuffs , so there just isnt that many spots for classes that only bring damage , were talking like around 5-7 spots for dps specs with no utility And to keep good group synergy it just fits in super nicely to have 3-4 hunters + 2-3 melee dps
Great info overall. Agree 100%. It was a sigma since the same dudes that were in vanilla and did not have to work hard to get to the top now had to work for it.... well we teased our homies.. for years about it. Rogue was never bad ever. Needed in TBC for a few encounters. IN FACT many people rerolled Rogue during sunwell patch... not for raid for pvp! They were sooo damn good!
Melees dont actually suck in TBC they do very good dmg especially in end game but its just hard for them caz of the melee unfriendly mechanics they nees a lot of effort to be top dps
Rogues bring zero buffs and at best average to above average DPS. TBC is all about what you bring to the raid, not just whether you can do decent DPS. Welcome to TBC, this isnt Vanilla
@@beautifulafrica4596 DPS is something to bring lol. that's why people take hunters and locks. Rogue is pretty much the highest damage melee, usually just below the top classes
@@beautifulafrica4596 this is TBC classic rogues are not the same duuude they bring more dmg they bring more cc and some "expose armor" if u know!!well u dont bring a rogue if u want
@@h1py Highest damage? LOLLLL! In dungeons maybe, but not in raids. I can see you've never actually played TBC. And btw, Hunters and Locks bring more than DPS. Perhaps do some homework
@@UncleAmerica92 There's 4 classes that can CC well and expose armor isnt good enough. You guys are in for a rude awakening when TBC hits. In original TBC the meme was "Rogues with bandages" cause there were so many unwanted rogues and so few healers rogues were a laughing stock and told to bring bandages. Now, its much more min max than then. Good luck!!
Literally have no idea why there's this sudden surge of people who think rogues are bad in TBC. Look at any end game raiding guild kill videos for ALL content in TBC. There are always 2-4 rogues in those videos. This notion that you can only clear this content with caster classes and ranged is just ignorant as shit and makes no sense to me. Rogues and Fury Warriors in the windfury melee group can/will pump dps. And there's just as many unfriendly caster fights as there are melee fights so why are we just pretending like its only for melee, I truly dont get it.
I could never understand the bias that started, when TBC rumor came up and rogues suddenly became a "meme spec". It went so far, that I am the last rogue left that actually wants to stay rogue in TBC, all other rogues rerolled. Vanilla TBC was the only top raiding expansion I had. We were the only alliance guild on our server that cleared Sunwell prenerf, next to one of the top progress Guild of the world on horde side. We had 2-3 rogues in a raid, Glaives never dropped for me the whole expansion. Many videos before beta said "well, you should still run a rogue for blacktemple, so you have someone to carry the glaives" and that this is the point where rogues start to do DPS. But I never ever felt that way. Brutallus DPS check was absolute brutal with per nerf. We optimized our comp to our best knowledge. Warlock group, with shami swap in for hero, perma drums in every group. And still, the rogues were able to keep up in DPS, even with a fully supported warlock group that was just spoonfed with haste effects. And I am super glad to hear, that rogue isn't as bad, as people try to make it up. The only really annoying part is, that people now treat hunter as the new warrior, that will get priority over most items instead of a rogue. And with 2 raidgroups already planned with 3 hunters each.. DST will be hard to come by, especially when I think of how many month and month I waited to see it even drop.
Just want to say, that rogue are a good dps class not at all a meme spec but the problem is that you won t need more than 2 rogues in a raid, other class bring more and more than one rogue is kinda useless. And another problem is that there are too much rogue that will come from classic, it will be the same for warrior , 1 tank one arm or fury and your guild raid will be full
The reason why melee dps is considered "bad" in TBC, is not because they can't pump damage. It's because of melee unfriendly boss tactics. We went into karazhan and tried to keep the bosses static. Rogues came on top with fury warriors competing as well. Phase 1 melee dps will still be valuable. Given you know what you do. SSC is where things slowly become and "issue".
I always heard that rogues and fury warriors did competitive dps, but they suffered because they had to dodge boss mechanics a lot, so the problem is more for the boss aoe heavy fights in later tiers.
The problem isn't that rogues can't do good dps. It's that they bring zero buffs to the raid. You can have 1 for expose armor but that's about it. And quite many fights are melee unfriendly. Lower uptime on the boss, mechanics that aoe and kill depending on how many people are in range etc. So when you want 1 enhance, 1 ret, 1 arms for buffs. Rogues gets the short end of the stick sadly. But they can do high dps by themselves for sure.
Dont bother zatar, if someone mained a rogue all of classic just to switch to lock or hunter for TBC they werent really a rogue at heart. more spots for the real ones
Ive been a Rogue main my entire WoW career. My biggest issue with Rogues in TBC is that it requires a substantial amount of additional effort, skill, and gear to compete in DPS. Compared to a Lock/Hunter/Mage who does top tier DPS with minimal effort in their rotations. Plus they are range. Do you have a discord? Id like to reach out to you for some more specific tips. Thx Long time Rogue player here.
It's not that their dmg is bad it's a combination of things other classes bring more to the raid as well as alot of melee unfriendly fights that being said normal guilds will run rogues and to your point I'd rather have a skilled rogue then a Medicare hunter or lock
Decided to play rogue the moment i heard TBC is coming. my first character back in 2005 was a troll rogue and i don't give sh#$ about this "new meta" :) we are going to have shadow step and cloak of shadow! and combat potency! that and a good MH weapon is all i need to have fun in TBC :)
Was something wrong with your Damage Meters? Even on Retail in a M+ run different people with the same add-on will get different results, because those Hunter and Warlock numbers look ridiculously low. Were they not including Pet Damage for the Hunter?
I would not consider feral a meme spec. I think Balance Druid, Shadow Priest, Enhancement Shaman, and Retribution Paladin are all significantly worse. I understand the point you are trying to make, but everyone's gear relatively similar on the beta and if Rogue truly was a meme spec, I would I need to be incredibly lucky to be top damage.
Thing how I look is most tbc fights are like Dragons of Nightmer from classic, you just don't have good timing on boss, like Emmeres, or sleeping fog. Also for rogue you need DST and Warglaves, than you are toping, and in most guilds if you not officer you don't have prio on that, for example I still don't have DFT nor any prio to get it. Not much luck with drops and other ppl prio soif same is in tbc, will strugle for not so much. Ofc you can find spot and ofc there is place for you in raids. PvP is great also, so keeping mine rogue.
I understand rogs can be competitive in pugs run. But if ure doing kara in a guild run that has a proper comp, A hunter in full blue is easily dishing out 1.5k dps no sweat. That is why we rogs are suffering and hunters are favoured.
Pug group... No real composition. Enough said. Optimal group formation will have rogues stuck in the bottom of the meters. Try out damage hunters in a 3x hunter+1 feral+1encha shaman group. The buff utility you mention at the end works against you. If u replace the rogue in that hunter/feral/shaman group with another hunter, the overall dmg of those classes is gonna be higher. As a rogue u have nothing to buff your group but you can benefit from their buffs like leeching from them. So the overall dmg of 3xhunter/feral/shama is gonna be always higher than a 2xhunter/rogue/feral/shaman grp!
Well said bro. I think people should just play what they think is fun. Even if its not a one of the super desirable classes I'm sure they'll find a guild eventually
Exactly this, and hunter will always be superior in pure dps solely because of buff/misdirect. Rogue might be above avg damage still but the reality still is they don't bring almost anything to the raid besides that damage.
What are you guys talking about?! That's not even the point of the video?! It matters that a Rogue can do decent damage on bosses and are useful in some situations. People that want to play Rogue should play Rogue and find themself a guild that isn't into this "meta-stuff" and be happy while playing. It doesn't mean that we'll be more useful in a raid than a Ret. It just means that we could be useful. And that's enough for me to go Rogue and play with my friends which do care about good friends and people that know hoe to play their class. Always ranting about who should be the most viable and has the best dps. Sick of this shit...
The problem is not is not that rogues always suck, the problem is that rogues suck during progression of more difficult raids. On top of that, they don't scale well untill armor pen gear is widely available. No class really "sucks" at TBC, that's the beauty of the expansion. It's just that they are not optimal and rogues not being optimal is a long term proven fact.
One counter-argument would be that rogues are good during progression because they have good defenses. Evasion, vanish and cloak of Shadows can help you survive longer than other classes on certain fights.
Rogue just feels like a waste of space in pve... even with utility. Makes me feel as though I have to play a different class just to try and enjoy pve...
I find people push the meta a lot. For example, resto druids are SUUUUUUUPER undervalued compared to a resto shaman or holy priest because "muh bloodlust" and "muh CoH" haha
Mate best of luck with the rogue, but I have seen it time and time again rogues don't get better until T5. This is beta and plays are testing the game so this I hope is not the final version. Kara looks way to easy it does my head in.
Do rogues suck at dps? No Are they great? No Will a great rogue player do more dmg than a bad hunter/lock? Yes Will a great rogue do more dmg than a good hunter/lock? No Will you find a raid position relatively ez throughout t4 t5 t6 content? Yes Should you really give a fuk? No... play what you want. I’m going to PvE as arms warrior, you think I care? Btw rogues are godly in arena in tbc so look at the bright side lol. I’d rather be op at pvp than flex dps meters.
No surprise you can beat bad players even with an inferior class. Every stream ive seen its always hunter and lock top dps every single time and by a big margin
Cloak of shadows gives you a 90% chance to resist magic after using it, and enfeeble is mechanic that takes you to 1 HP and it is not a magic effect. So if you cloak of Shadows during enfeebled, there is a 10% chance you die do the shadow Nova. You'll see that I will be cloak of Shadows when I don't have enfeeble to avoid the shadow damage and knock back when it wouldn't risk me dying.
Most guilds would prioritize you playing what you prefer over having a 100% perfect comp. Two rogues in a 25-man raid is completely fine. Sounds like your guild is in the top 5% of guilds that plays the game very hardcore.
As a rogue you will not be able to do top dmg. Check other guilds and top players that test Maghteridon or Gruul ath this point. See where the only rogue in the group is in meters? Also keep in mind that your spot is not based on pure damage contribution. Versatility is the key.
Humans sucks with These Kind of questions. Play what ever you want If it is a rogue so play it Fuck of every dps meter. Where is the fun Meter? Everything on how to do the most.... Why no fun?
That's just how it is these days, people copy the top meta without clearly understanding why or having the necessity or players to do so. A RUclips video tells them: rogues do 10% less single target dps than hunters in an optimal setting and have to deal with melee mechanics => they are trash and a meme spec, and this gets amplified and propagated like gospel. It's cringe :)
And that is better, but orc is still a top-three racial. Orc is better in PVE as well. If I see to play horde I would play Undead, but I already have an undead Rogue, and I think both are cool races. I'm playing Alliance in TBC though.
How hard is gladiator slicer to get? I’ve been debating weather or not to go blacksmith on my rogue that I don’t raid on. Is BS even worth going if I don even plan on getting to 70 until months later?
There's no rating requirement on Gladiators slicer, so you will just need to play games each week until you have enough points. The higher your rating the more points you will get. Season 3 and 4 weapons do have rating requirements though
The rogue numbers looks about right. The hunters/locks dps looks like have been played by bots or afk people watching Netflix. That video just shows the average rogue dps and bunch of afk people doing nerfed 10man raid. Like going into kindergarden playground, beating the shit out of some 3 years old and making video how good you did...
@@supreme-dictator-donald-tr6611 Playing the flavor of the month class does not make you good player or top dps. As i said he is showing his super try hard vs some ppl who prob watch netflix or have never played the game at all. Being top dps at Prince as a rogue is beyond absurd if you are in a group with any half competent players. In fact go watch some of the decent raids of Kara and Grulls in the last 2 days and see the difference :).
Majority of Tbc pve favors ranged/casters and it’s as simple as that. That doesn’t mean melee isn’t viable it just gets “out shined” easier at the start. Pve meta is gonna change and min maxers are gonna stack hunters/locks/sham, but you will still need other classes cus they eventually do “balance” out. It’s unfortunate that people have the mentality of “is my class still viable”, ofc it is, why wouldn’t it be. I catch some streams and hear you talking about approaching tbc with a different mentality than with classic. Like you seen the error of your ways and I wish more people would do the same...
I've been saying this the whole time. People are going to be shocked when a good rogue is top of meters, because he understands his class and how to optimize it on fights that are going to make him shine and be viable
Relax it’s beta. hunters will be the new kings of the meta just annoying how you rogue players can’t get over it payo admitted to it should mean something to you.
@@Trickypokerzx Dude stfu, I never once down played hunters being the best dps, but I will guarantee I will be top dps on some fights and nowhere getting dumpstered how it is on classic with some classes. Obviously some fights are more tailored to range, but thats only a handful and once a rogue gets T5/T6 & warglaives they catch up and into sunwell rogues are going to be top dps.
@@PaulSanz63 first of all sit on a cactus with your stfu second of all no your not going to be top dps on any fight clearly your going into tbc with out knowing. It’s okay your brain is alittle slow think you need to watch more videos
@@PaulSanz63 bro a hunter with legendary bow thoridal or what is called can Easily top dps in every fight with sunwell gear .Also rogues aren't gonna be more then 2 in a 25 man so good luck getting glaives😆
@@dracony7649 So you're saying I only have to worry about 1 other rogue to fight against for glaives,? And, when im in LC for the past year and a half, started the guild with friends, i know ill be getting the first set , soooo...... I feel like the 4-6 hunters are gonna have more of a fight for the bow, but just my .02. Sunwell fights are more appealing for melee then any other raid in BC also. Just watch and see if you have a good rogue in guild who knows how to play
We never had an era. Warriors were above us most of the time in classic. And btw, who cares if we're not doing as much dps compared to others anymore?! Is that the only joy you have while playing WoW?! To be the best class and top dps?! It should be fun to play!!! Jesus...
where u hit capped 363 hit cuz u need that much if u dont have a boomy and u need to be fully hit capped for combat potency also where u playing imp expose spec its best spec for rogues
@@Zatar And most classic players will be trash. More reason to not stack rogues who can't excel on melee-challenging fights. Most rogues won't be at your level of play or try as hard.. i don't think (like that Bboomer guy for ex)
That is a fair point, but I think it's fair to say that as a rogue if you try you can still do very well considering gear and skill can help make up the difference in damage of your spec compared to others. This was not the case with meme specs in classic.
Rogues bring zero buffs and at best average to above average DPS. TBC is all about what you bring to the raid, not just whether you can do decent DPS. Welcome to TBC, this isnt Vanilla
Bottom of the barrel is very different in TBC than it is in classic. As fights get more melee friendly later in the game and Rogues scale up, especially if you can get glaives, they are not bottom of the barrel anymore either.
@@Sixa2901 He was 2nd dps at grull kill. It shows that rogues are definitely not that bad. Also; as you said, yes, these guys are not best players but even though they managed to clear kara and grull in their first raid. So idiots should understand that; there is no min maxing required to EASILY CLEAR these raids. If you are in speedrunning guild like there is no tomorrow it is whole another story.In addition; after p3 with warglaives and armor pen; rogues will be pushing for top3 dps nearly every single boss fight.
@@mertisk3710 Pushing top 3 b/c those are the only classes that can do dps (and not be a hybrid dps?) Of course they "MAY" be top with a geared fury warrior with Glaives it's the same thing. But if your hunters/locks dare I say maybe even elem shams are not way ahead of your melee on a "everyone" friendly fight.....something is wrong with your range dps, know what I mean?
Those may be the worse range DPS in the world. Lock/Hunter below melee, I'm not sure how that's possible. Out of all the testing I've seen this is the worse I've seen range do. Were they completely new to their class? Straight rando PUG or what? Other streams I saw locks/hutners/Elem were doing 900+ on almost all bosses. O.o what's going on with those guys.
Игры
Just finished gruul's lair, was #2 on dps behind a hunter on gruul, and me and another rogue were 6/7 on maulgor behind three locks and two hunters.
same here, I went to Gruul with a hunter, a class that I only use as a farmchar and I have basically no hunter skills at all. I used a hunter coz with my rogue I had no chance of finding a grp. I ended up being 11th in dps while a decent rogue was on 7. People are simply nuts, they belive in any, how ever stupid, meta without testing it themselves. And btw I was not the worst hunter and I was ahead of a few warlocks too...
Yesterday Kara, I was the only melee in the group. One hunter, the rest mages and Warlock. The average DPS in the group was probably around 1k. Warlocks often times did 2-3.5 k on mobs.
I was usually sitting at 550-700 dps in Boss fights and was always the lowest. Everyone hovered around 800-1.5k on average. Its truly depressing.
Felt the same about my Kara run as a rogue. Was totally fine, topped a few fights, was always competitive. Thanks for being a content creator not pushing the "must be meta" agenda.
kara and whole t4 is melee friendly, you will struggle more in t5 as mechanics are rough for melee
@@Skeldaa and you'll be first dps in some t6 bosses
If you watch Willie's video, he talks about how the template gear wasn't even hit capped for some classes and was mostly garbo. These numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.
End of the day, if you know what you’re doing and you’re putting in the effort to min-max, you’ll be near the top. The spreadsheets only tell us who has the edge. You know your stuff.
Those are some scrub ranged dps that are under 1k.
These hunters/locks are horrible. Them being bad doesn't mean rogues are good it just means they're bad dude.
The point of the video is not Rogues are better than hunters and warlocks. The point is that rogues are perceived as being very weak, and I don't believe this to be the case.
Furthermore, even on melee unfriendly fights, good melee players can outperform mediocre and poor ranged players.
This. If you bring bad players, of course you can top the meters
Agree! People compare class/specs to each other. The popular opinion of rogues being bad is just that they dont bring much to the raid and are outperformed by 90% of the other classes if equal gear/skill level. Thats not to say that top rogue cant beat avarage Joe locks early on.Even more, if your guild is not pushing for speed kills, play whatever.I just wouldnt want to be in a guild as a Rogue where im top dps in Phase 1 :)
9:25 exactly, other classes bring damage AND raid buffs. Rogues just bring damage. So if they're mid-pack, or even top of the score card, they didn't bring up the rest of the raid.
At least rogues can sap and distract, the fury warrior coming from classic doesn't even do that.
@@korenn9381 oh sure
Rogues also bring IEA which hugely increases kill time for the whole raid. They don’t bring just damage from themselves.
love to hear this, plus we will be really good in pvp too
Very encouraging to see other rogues pushing through and not caring about the stigmas
A boomkin still smashes everything with a lot of mana pots
Except they don’t lol
It mostly to do with the raid comp planning in 25s, realistically if u want all the good buffs/debuffs and a good group synergy , you can only really bring 3 melee dps that can get benefit from a group comp, 1 of them pretty much has be a ret , so youre left with 2 spots for melee dps , if u want any more you will have to gimp a lot of your utility/ how many healers you can bring , and you also gimp the tanks by having to squish them together into 1 group , and all that just to bring a few extra melee dps, that yes are pretty competetive if they can get good melee uptime but dont really bring anything other than damage similar to ranged , you can see its just a nightmare in terms of raid comp planning , obv viable but not ideal
Lol no, literally just don't stack warlock and hunter, you meta slave
@@Wellshem meta slave or not , you always want to bring 3 warlocks and 1 survival , i think everyone can agree on that
That's like saying average classic guild goes into a raid with 22 warriors, because it's BiS. Everyone is freaking out about how melee is gonna be the meme of TBC while they do Naxx with 5 mediocre at best warlocks with 5 dps warriors. If I ever hear someone complain that they can't kill a boss in any raid because they have some melee in raid and not because they suck, then they suck.
@@ondrejgotz3414 Well the raids are going to be quite different to tbc so i wouldnt even compare classic to it but melees wont suck in tbc , infact they will be the top classes if threat is good and the fights are short AND its a melee friendly fight + the scaling into later content is pretty insane
but like i said its more of a logistics problem in 25s , you just need to bring a certain amount of classes for their utility/buffs/debuffs , so there just isnt that many spots for classes that only bring damage , were talking like around 5-7 spots for dps specs with no utility
And to keep good group synergy it just fits in super nicely to have 3-4 hunters + 2-3 melee dps
Great info overall. Agree 100%. It was a sigma since the same dudes that were in vanilla and did not have to work hard to get to the top now had to work for it.... well we teased our homies.. for years about it. Rogue was never bad ever. Needed in TBC for a few encounters. IN FACT many people rerolled Rogue during sunwell patch... not for raid for pvp! They were sooo damn good!
Melees dont actually suck in TBC they do very good dmg especially in end game but its just hard for them caz of the melee unfriendly mechanics they nees a lot of effort to be top dps
Rogues bring zero buffs and at best average to above average DPS. TBC is all about what you bring to the raid, not just whether you can do decent DPS. Welcome to TBC, this isnt Vanilla
@@beautifulafrica4596 DPS is something to bring lol. that's why people take hunters and locks. Rogue is pretty much the highest damage melee, usually just below the top classes
@@beautifulafrica4596 this is TBC classic rogues are not the same duuude they bring more dmg they bring more cc and some "expose armor" if u know!!well u dont bring a rogue if u want
@@h1py Highest damage? LOLLLL! In dungeons maybe, but not in raids. I can see you've never actually played TBC. And btw, Hunters and Locks bring more than DPS. Perhaps do some homework
@@UncleAmerica92 There's 4 classes that can CC well and expose armor isnt good enough. You guys are in for a rude awakening when TBC hits. In original TBC the meme was "Rogues with bandages" cause there were so many unwanted rogues and so few healers rogues were a laughing stock and told to bring bandages. Now, its much more min max than then. Good luck!!
Literally have no idea why there's this sudden surge of people who think rogues are bad in TBC. Look at any end game raiding guild kill videos for ALL content in TBC. There are always 2-4 rogues in those videos. This notion that you can only clear this content with caster classes and ranged is just ignorant as shit and makes no sense to me. Rogues and Fury Warriors in the windfury melee group can/will pump dps. And there's just as many unfriendly caster fights as there are melee fights so why are we just pretending like its only for melee, I truly dont get it.
I could never understand the bias that started, when TBC rumor came up and rogues suddenly became a "meme spec". It went so far, that I am the last rogue left that actually wants to stay rogue in TBC, all other rogues rerolled.
Vanilla TBC was the only top raiding expansion I had. We were the only alliance guild on our server that cleared Sunwell prenerf, next to one of the top progress Guild of the world on horde side.
We had 2-3 rogues in a raid, Glaives never dropped for me the whole expansion. Many videos before beta said "well, you should still run a rogue for blacktemple, so you have someone to carry the glaives" and that this is the point where rogues start to do DPS. But I never ever felt that way. Brutallus DPS check was absolute brutal with per nerf. We optimized our comp to our best knowledge. Warlock group, with shami swap in for hero, perma drums in every group. And still, the rogues were able to keep up in DPS, even with a fully supported warlock group that was just spoonfed with haste effects.
And I am super glad to hear, that rogue isn't as bad, as people try to make it up. The only really annoying part is, that people now treat hunter as the new warrior, that will get priority over most items instead of a rogue. And with 2 raidgroups already planned with 3 hunters each.. DST will be hard to come by, especially when I think of how many month and month I waited to see it even drop.
Just want to say, that rogue are a good dps class not at all a meme spec but the problem is that you won t need more than 2 rogues in a raid, other class bring more and more than one rogue is kinda useless. And another problem is that there are too much rogue that will come from classic, it will be the same for warrior , 1 tank one arm or fury and your guild raid will be full
Shhh let everyone think rogues suck so they all reroll!!!! Don’t give our secret away!
The reason why melee dps is considered "bad" in TBC, is not because they can't pump damage. It's because of melee unfriendly boss tactics. We went into karazhan and tried to keep the bosses static. Rogues came on top with fury warriors competing as well. Phase 1 melee dps will still be valuable. Given you know what you do.
SSC is where things slowly become and "issue".
It's not about person dmg, they have no raid buffs and small utility from average players
I always heard that rogues and fury warriors did competitive dps, but they suffered because they had to dodge boss mechanics a lot, so the problem is more for the boss aoe heavy fights in later tiers.
People point to tier 4 and tier 5 being the Raids that melee are not good for. To me it felt like melee could do well in t4.
The problem isn't that rogues can't do good dps. It's that they bring zero buffs to the raid. You can have 1 for expose armor but that's about it. And quite many fights are melee unfriendly. Lower uptime on the boss, mechanics that aoe and kill depending on how many people are in range etc. So when you want 1 enhance, 1 ret, 1 arms for buffs. Rogues gets the short end of the stick sadly. But they can do high dps by themselves for sure.
Dont bother zatar, if someone mained a rogue all of classic just to switch to lock or hunter for TBC they werent really a rogue at heart. more spots for the real ones
Ive been a Rogue main my entire WoW career. My biggest issue with Rogues in TBC is that it requires a substantial amount of additional effort, skill, and gear to compete in DPS. Compared to a Lock/Hunter/Mage who does top tier DPS with minimal effort in their rotations. Plus they are range.
Do you have a discord? Id like to reach out to you for some more specific tips. Thx
Long time Rogue player here.
discord.gg/JWR4e6ME can also ask questions each day on my twitch
Thanks for this. i got adviced to not continue my rogue , but i really want to and after this vid , i will :D
It's not that their dmg is bad it's a combination of things other classes bring more to the raid as well as alot of melee unfriendly fights that being said normal guilds will run rogues and to your point I'd rather have a skilled rogue then a Medicare hunter or lock
It’s easy to be top in a sea of shit. Rogues are not getting too on any tbc raid with people who know what they’re doing.
Decided to play rogue the moment i heard TBC is coming. my first character back in 2005 was a troll rogue and i don't give sh#$ about this "new meta" :) we are going to have shadow step and cloak of shadow! and combat potency! that and a good MH weapon is all i need to have fun in TBC :)
Was something wrong with your Damage Meters? Even on Retail in a M+ run different people with the same add-on will get different results, because those Hunter and Warlock numbers look ridiculously low. Were they not including Pet Damage for the Hunter?
Gear wasn't hit capped.
Exactly as I remember it from back then. Was top damage as rogue on many single target bosses.
I run feral dps in classic. I do top dps in my guild, am I suddenly not a meme spec?
I would not consider feral a meme spec. I think Balance Druid, Shadow Priest, Enhancement Shaman, and Retribution Paladin are all significantly worse.
I understand the point you are trying to make, but everyone's gear relatively similar on the beta and if Rogue truly was a meme spec, I would I need to be incredibly lucky to be top damage.
I saw a hunter do 1.6k dps on Shade...
Exactly. Not saying that people shouldn't play Rogue, I was a Rogue main back in TBC, but these Hunter and Warlock numbers are _waaaaay_ off.
@@andrewshandle Bad players are bad even with enchs/gems/rep/selected gear. These #'s just show that he was grouped with horrids sadly ;(
why dont u use expose armor in ur rotation ?
Because you can't pop off with it in your rotation.
Thing how I look is most tbc fights are like Dragons of Nightmer from classic, you just don't have good timing on boss, like Emmeres, or sleeping fog. Also for rogue you need DST and Warglaves, than you are toping, and in most guilds if you not officer you don't have prio on that, for example I still don't have DFT nor any prio to get it. Not much luck with drops and other ppl prio soif same is in tbc, will strugle for not so much. Ofc you can find spot and ofc there is place for you in raids. PvP is great also, so keeping mine rogue.
No, as an ele shaman I will not drop wind fury. But for real rogues are not bad as folks think.
I understand rogs can be competitive in pugs run.
But if ure doing kara in a guild run that has a proper comp,
A hunter in full blue is easily dishing out 1.5k dps no sweat.
That is why we rogs are suffering and hunters are favoured.
Pug group...
No real composition.
Enough said.
Optimal group formation will have rogues stuck in the bottom of the meters.
Try out damage hunters in a 3x hunter+1 feral+1encha shaman group.
The buff utility you mention at the end works against you.
If u replace the rogue in that hunter/feral/shaman group with another hunter, the overall dmg of those classes is gonna be higher. As a rogue u have nothing to buff your group but you can benefit from their buffs like leeching from them.
So the overall dmg of 3xhunter/feral/shama is gonna be always higher than a 2xhunter/rogue/feral/shaman grp!
Well said bro. I think people should just play what they think is fun. Even if its not a one of the super desirable classes I'm sure they'll find a guild eventually
I enjoy rogue and will continue to do so, shame we have a ton in the guild and raid spots are taken already
I’m going to continue to main fury warrior. Not jumping in the FoTM train.
Love u Z keep up the good content
I knew it wasn’t as bad as what people were saying but this is even more reassuring.
gotta keep in mind your group. You dont have a good comp and your group itself is just bad. I saw warlocks pushing 1.6k each on gruul yesterday.
who cares? they beat it lmao
Like damage is the only thing you should bring.....In 25 man any ret is more valuable than a rogue just for the buffs it brings.
Exactly this, and hunter will always be superior in pure dps solely because of buff/misdirect. Rogue might be above avg damage still but the reality still is they don't bring almost anything to the raid besides that damage.
What are you guys talking about?! That's not even the point of the video?!
It matters that a Rogue can do decent damage on bosses and are useful in some situations. People that want to play Rogue should play Rogue and find themself a guild that isn't into this "meta-stuff" and be happy while playing. It doesn't mean that we'll be more useful in a raid than a Ret. It just means that we could be useful. And that's enough for me to go Rogue and play with my friends which do care about good friends and people that know hoe to play their class.
Always ranting about who should be the most viable and has the best dps. Sick of this shit...
Rigged! Warlocks do double the damage in kara
The problem is not is not that rogues always suck, the problem is that rogues suck during progression of more difficult raids. On top of that, they don't scale well untill armor pen gear is widely available.
No class really "sucks" at TBC, that's the beauty of the expansion. It's just that they are not optimal and rogues not being optimal is a long term proven fact.
One counter-argument would be that rogues are good during progression because they have good defenses.
Evasion, vanish and cloak of Shadows can help you survive longer than other classes on certain fights.
Rogue just feels like a waste of space in pve... even with utility. Makes me feel as though I have to play a different class just to try and enjoy pve...
I find people push the meta a lot. For example, resto druids are SUUUUUUUPER undervalued compared to a resto shaman or holy priest because "muh bloodlust" and "muh CoH" haha
ZOMG Zatar FINALLY playing a Trogue (troll rogue) !!! I knew hed see it my way some day ;]
Mate best of luck with the rogue, but I have seen it time and time again rogues don't get better until T5. This is beta and plays are testing the game so this I hope is not the final version. Kara looks way to easy it does my head in.
Do rogues suck at dps? No
Are they great? No
Will a great rogue player do more dmg than a bad hunter/lock? Yes
Will a great rogue do more dmg than a good hunter/lock? No
Will you find a raid position relatively ez throughout t4 t5 t6 content? Yes
Should you really give a fuk? No... play what you want. I’m going to PvE as arms warrior, you think I care?
Btw rogues are godly in arena in tbc so look at the bright side lol. I’d rather be op at pvp than flex dps meters.
No surprise you can beat bad players even with an inferior class.
Every stream ive seen its always hunter and lock top dps every single time and by a big margin
Dont rogues bring hemo for the whole raid ?
Pop cloak at prince but stil got to run away?
Cloak of shadows gives you a 90% chance to resist magic after using it, and enfeeble is mechanic that takes you to 1 HP and it is not a magic effect.
So if you cloak of Shadows during enfeebled, there is a 10% chance you die do the shadow Nova.
You'll see that I will be cloak of Shadows when I don't have enfeeble to avoid the shadow damage and knock back when it wouldn't risk me dying.
Good info until your guild tells you that you have to sit on the bench because they only have room for 1 rogue in the raid... =D
Most guilds would prioritize you playing what you prefer over having a 100% perfect comp. Two rogues in a 25-man raid is completely fine.
Sounds like your guild is in the top 5% of guilds that plays the game very hardcore.
@@Zatar yea we do alright, not bringing in a rogue until P3
As a rogue you will not be able to do top dmg.
Check other guilds and top players that test Maghteridon or Gruul ath this point.
See where the only rogue in the group is in meters?
Also keep in mind that your spot is not based on pure damage contribution. Versatility is the key.
Humans sucks with These Kind of questions. Play what ever you want If it is a rogue so play it
Fuck of every dps meter. Where is the fun Meter? Everything on how to do the most.... Why no fun?
One-button-macro'ed BM hunter, melt face
That's just how it is these days, people copy the top meta without clearly understanding why or having the necessity or players to do so. A RUclips video tells them: rogues do 10% less single target dps than hunters in an optimal setting and have to deal with melee mechanics => they are trash and a meme spec, and this gets amplified and propagated like gospel. It's cringe :)
Are you rerolling Undead for TBC or staying orc? Is orc really bad for pvp vs undead?
And that is better, but orc is still a top-three racial. Orc is better in PVE as well.
If I see to play horde I would play Undead, but I already have an undead Rogue, and I think both are cool races.
I'm playing Alliance in TBC though.
How hard is gladiator slicer to get? I’ve been debating weather or not to go blacksmith on my rogue that I don’t raid on. Is BS even worth going if I don even plan on getting to 70 until months later?
There's no rating requirement on Gladiators slicer, so you will just need to play games each week until you have enough points. The higher your rating the more points you will get.
Season 3 and 4 weapons do have rating requirements though
@@Zatar okay screw BS then. It’ll take me 3 months just to get all the mats for BS. Thank you! Sub liked and followed on twitch
I'll do the same even if i suck at PvP. I have 2 good friends that suck too, so it will be a walk in the park. 👌🏻😉
Great content
Tier 4 nothing to compare overthere
The rogue numbers looks about right. The hunters/locks dps looks like have been played by bots or afk people watching Netflix. That video just shows the average rogue dps and bunch of afk people doing nerfed 10man raid. Like going into kindergarden playground, beating the shit out of some 3 years old and making video how good you did...
yep because shadowbolt spam takes the highest tier gaming skill
@@supreme-dictator-donald-tr6611 Playing the flavor of the month class does not make you good player or top dps. As i said he is showing his super try hard vs some ppl who prob watch netflix or have never played the game at all. Being top dps at Prince as a rogue is beyond absurd if you are in a group with any half competent players. In fact go watch some of the decent raids of Kara and Grulls in the last 2 days and see the difference :).
Lmao 100%
Majority of Tbc pve favors ranged/casters and it’s as simple as that. That doesn’t mean melee isn’t viable it just gets “out shined” easier at the start. Pve meta is gonna change and min maxers are gonna stack hunters/locks/sham, but you will still need other classes cus they eventually do “balance” out. It’s unfortunate that people have the mentality of “is my class still viable”, ofc it is, why wouldn’t it be.
I catch some streams and hear you talking about approaching tbc with a different mentality than with classic. Like you seen the error of your ways and I wish more people would do the same...
I've been saying this the whole time. People are going to be shocked when a good rogue is top of meters, because he understands his class and how to optimize it on fights that are going to make him shine and be viable
Relax it’s beta. hunters will be the new kings of the meta just annoying how you rogue players can’t get over it payo admitted to it should mean something to you.
@@Trickypokerzx Dude stfu, I never once down played hunters being the best dps, but I will guarantee I will be top dps on some fights and nowhere getting dumpstered how it is on classic with some classes. Obviously some fights are more tailored to range, but thats only a handful and once a rogue gets T5/T6 & warglaives they catch up and into sunwell rogues are going to be top dps.
@@PaulSanz63 first of all sit on a cactus with your stfu second of all no your not going to be top dps on any fight clearly your going into tbc with out knowing. It’s okay your brain is alittle slow think you need to watch more videos
@@PaulSanz63 bro a hunter with legendary bow thoridal or what is called can Easily top dps in every fight with sunwell gear .Also rogues aren't gonna be more then 2 in a 25 man so good luck getting glaives😆
@@dracony7649 So you're saying I only have to worry about 1 other rogue to fight against for glaives,? And, when im in LC for the past year and a half, started the guild with friends, i know ill be getting the first set , soooo...... I feel like the 4-6 hunters are gonna have more of a fight for the bow, but just my .02. Sunwell fights are more appealing for melee then any other raid in BC also. Just watch and see if you have a good rogue in guild who knows how to play
I heard nothing but shit talk on rogues in early tbc, yet on all these streams they were topping dmg? ok.
i guess people are too busy with theoriecrafting the game/their class, rather than just play the game
Turns out, good players do good damage :D
Spoiler : The Classic TBC difficulty is such a joke that even spellpower rogue would be considered viable :)
EZ
Zatar hunters are just gonna beat rogues your era is over.
yea green is better than yellow
We never had an era. Warriors were above us most of the time in classic. And btw, who cares if we're not doing as much dps compared to others anymore?! Is that the only joy you have while playing WoW?! To be the best class and top dps?!
It should be fun to play!!! Jesus...
where u hit capped 363 hit cuz u need that much if u dont have a boomy and u need to be fully hit capped for combat potency also where u playing imp expose spec its best spec for rogues
Hunters and warlock have shit numbers wtffff kekW
rogues start pumping in t5, t6
Yeah they suck!! you woud be on all bosse last dps :) IF the pugplayerplay not like this GL
rogues are broken in PVP...
goat
big fish small pond fallacy
In wow classic, the overwhelming majority of guilds are going to be small ponds.
@@Zatar And most classic players will be trash. More reason to not stack rogues who can't excel on melee-challenging fights. Most rogues won't be at your level of play or try as hard.. i don't think (like that Bboomer guy for ex)
That is a fair point, but I think it's fair to say that as a rogue if you try you can still do very well considering gear and skill can help make up the difference in damage of your spec compared to others.
This was not the case with meme specs in classic.
Rogues bring zero buffs and at best average to above average DPS. TBC is all about what you bring to the raid, not just whether you can do decent DPS. Welcome to TBC, this isnt Vanilla
Hey guys rogues dont suck because ONE GUY did well with rogue in one kara run, and he made a video, therefore rogues are good in TBC!!!!
Johnny chill out bro your spectrum is showing
Sadly they are still bottom of the barrel. These runs just show bad people playing their class. Possibly no clue what they are doing
Bottom of the barrel is very different in TBC than it is in classic. As fights get more melee friendly later in the game and Rogues scale up, especially if you can get glaives, they are not bottom of the barrel anymore either.
@@Sixa2901 He was 2nd dps at grull kill. It shows that rogues are definitely not that bad. Also; as you said, yes, these guys are not best players but even though they managed to clear kara and grull in their first raid. So idiots should understand that; there is no min maxing required to EASILY CLEAR these raids. If you are in speedrunning guild like there is no tomorrow it is whole another story.In addition; after p3 with warglaives and armor pen; rogues will be pushing for top3 dps nearly every single boss fight.
@@mertisk3710 Pushing top 3 b/c those are the only classes that can do dps (and not be a hybrid dps?) Of course they "MAY" be top with a geared fury warrior with Glaives it's the same thing. But if your hunters/locks dare I say maybe even elem shams are not way ahead of your melee on a "everyone" friendly fight.....something is wrong with your range dps, know what I mean?
Jop
Those may be the worse range DPS in the world. Lock/Hunter below melee, I'm not sure how that's possible. Out of all the testing I've seen this is the worse I've seen range do. Were they completely new to their class? Straight rando PUG or what? Other streams I saw locks/hutners/Elem were doing 900+ on almost all bosses. O.o what's going on with those guys.
He said he pugged a group less then 30 secs into the vid
@@apdo6107 Rekt
Bad gear ez
the casters aren't doing enough dps, but yea they aren't even hit capped etc, rogues had the best gear on beta imo
take this with a grain of salt
those ppl must of sucked specilaly the lock and hunter