The Norden - Nordic Prisons
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- Опубликовано: 22 окт 2014
- Follow our latest prison documentary here: • Prison Project: Little...
James Conway, retired Superintendent from Attica Correctional Facility in New York, visits four Nordic Prisons. English subtitles. Host: Joakim Rundt. Read more here: svenska.yle.fi/artikel/2014/10...
Other episodes from the series:
Religion: • The Norden - Religion
Police: • The Norden - Police
Gender: • The Norden - Gender
(C) Finnish Broadcasting Company Yle 2014. All rights reserved. 
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It's bizarre to see him try to lecture the Nordics, when the Nordic system is so obviously more effective than his system.
Is it tho?
Dino Sabalić Obviously... did you not see the graph at the beginning ?
I did not. My bad. I can make a graph of my own, but is that a realistic projection? Cause we all know Swedish police hidd and sendt out false informations about rape and other crimes the imigrants have comitted. Sooo... If the same people are invalved in decisionmaking and destribution of information, how the fu*k do we know thise information wosn't manipulated? NOT TO MENTION a great point the american guy made, about "wtf do you think the victimes family thinks about the wonderful way a KILLER, RAPIST, ARSENIST is being treated" while their daughter/son is rotting in the ground. Sorry by my personal moral inquiry, i do not think a violent, rapist, killer, etc. deserves sutch nice treatmant at ALL. But that's just me.
That was not the Swedish police, but the Swedish government... They have removed all statistics based on ethnicity/origin to push their "humanistic" and feminist agenda, which im sure most people find outrageeously disgusting, since with it no one can prove anything, but at the same time no one can disprove anything related to the subject.. However even if the Swedish numbers was wrong, then how would you explain the rest of the Nordics similar numbers ? The sheer reality here is that, when everyone does NOT have a gun, the Police will not have to worry about dangereous situations as much, and thus not have the same trigger happy urge to draw nor fire their own guns in "self defense" or say "just to be on the safe side".
Guns are such an integral part of USA, that everyone seems to run around in a huge paranoia suspecting everyone around them also carry guns (which is more or less true offcourse)... But that mindset and paranoia is simply not present in the Nordic countries, and most of Europe aswell, and thus you should really really make an effort here to get any kind of weapons pointed at you by the Police. Whereas i seen videos of American cops instantly drawing their guns, shouting aggresively, and showing no respect to the "suspect" for even trivial insignificant "crimes" such as Jaywalking, minor speeding, or simply being drunk in public.
"when everyone does NOT have a gun, the Police will not have to worry about dangereous situations as much", i agree 100% with what you said there. The situation in australia and the UK speaks for it. Jes, all you said is true.
James Conway's mindset of "you are at my mercy, and will be punished quite harshly for any resistance to my authority" tells it all. I quite liked the way a female warden responded to this by classifying it as an outdated parenting method of discipline by corporeal punishment.
@Aldo Caprione how`?
@Aldo Caprione Brainwashed by ones own will? That doesn't really seem like an issue to me.
Yes on outdated. And not just because it uses corporeal punishment, but also because of the "my authority can't ever be questioned" mind set.
I find the concept very scary, because it assumes that the parent / prison guard in question is above making mistakes.
There's something sociopathic to the idea that just the resistance to authority warrants punishment, no matter what that authority was just doing.
James defines our problem in the US with his fear that humanity or kindness might be perceived as weakness. This is what's sinking us.
As a Norwegian i hope the the US prison system one day will look at the inmates as human beings and treat them accordingly. Bringing out the worst in ppl is unproductive.
Terje bjørklund These videos (I saw the religious one also) are such eye openers. I'm liberal & atheist, & really struggling with my country these days. I wish I could say this American attitude wasn't common but the political right-wing embodies this fear of perceived weakness. It's societal patriarchal anger wanting to whip a child into obedience. It's very disheartening, particularly after our recent election.
@@151riley The problem with conservative right wing people is that they fail to understand that their belief-system is an exception, not a rule. As a result, they try to create a prison system that would be effective for them. But it should be obvious by now that their prison system is not effective for the criminals!
You forgot to mention a extremely important part. Namely how many re-offenders does the Nordic countries have, I've heard that it's the lowest in the world while USA has the highest
***** yeah :/ but it's still an important part to tell
has nothing to do with that. We have different demographic populations and as Nordic countries get more immigrants they will have more violent crime. Like rape in Malmo, Sweden which is way higher than the USA. The other factor is sentencing. A rape in a Nordic country can be as little as 6 months but in the US, especially in states like Texas it can be 20-50 years.
garybsg you know that rape statistics went down the same year Sweden took in 160 000 refugees. Kind of opposite what you say
after doing some quick reaserch it seems like in the US about 70% of released prisoners commit a crime within 3 years. in Sweden that number is around 40% and Norway 20% (within 2 years)
Since I'm swedish the Norwegian numbers where harder to find and I only found one article so not sure how accurate those numbers are
I Noticed that this comment of yours is a year old, but i'd still like to offer you some statistics on this issue as they came up when i was debating differences between my home country of Finland and the United States in another RUclips-video.
The percentage of people that re-offend, or in other words, the recidivism-rate, as an average across all American states is 67,8% after 3 years.
Here in Finland the same number after 3 years is 36,2% and i'd wager to say that this is due to our prisons being used more for rehabilitating than for punishing, not to mention the larger amounts of support that is available to citizens so they don't fall into the cracks of society.
I think that combining the punishment mentality with the way that many American prisons are now run by companies and expected to turn a profit is a recipe for a disaster. It makes it desirable for the company to hire the least amount of cheapest/least skilled labourers, offer the poorest possible care to the prisoners and to do everything in their power to make sure that they will be in a mental-state to re-offend as soon as possible so they can get more money out of them.
That is something so unjust that i don't have any idea how any American can sleep their nights soundly when stuff like that is going on in their country...
At one point he says "Who cares how they feel?"...this sums up the American prison system pretty clearly. They don't give a damn about the inmates, unless they are in private prisons, then they care about how much money each inmate can make for them.
Exactly. James s being as stupid as he is let the cat out of the bag. in describing his mentality and the US prison system.
@Who Am i Okay, so tell me:
how do the cells / food / outdoor areas / facilities for thieves, small-time weed dealers and people who didn't pay their ticket look like?
Because unless you know for certain that they have wildly different conditions, your argument isn't rational, just a good-night story you tell yourself.
I'm very disappointed by the fact that they didn't present more statistics, like the huge difference in the recidivism rate of the two countries. Also, no mention of the fact that Norway doesn't send it's mental health patients and drug addicts to prison.
+KETimiko if you are interested, here are the statistics: The recidivism rate in the us is 52%, in norway its 20%.
That particular prison in the end has a recidivism rate even lower at 16% www.salve.edu/sites/default/files/filesfield/documents/Incarceration_and_Recidivism.pdf
they do send drug addicts to prison..
"Who cares how they feel" - Said the guy in the video at 15:55.
And that is the American penitentiary system in 5 words.
Dear American, you didn't come to teach them a lesson, you came there to watch and learn!!!
Actually in the soft prison they need to learn a lot, it's a good thing but weapons, doing whatever you want being an inmate... nope, that's not the way, you are a criminal, you need to learn to not to be one before you do whatever you want, your not being punished without reason but you can't just do what you want
They don't need to learn anything. The best prison systems in the world are in Scandinavia, with the world's lowest recidivism rates. There is no country they can learn things from, because their statistics in every metric are the best in the world.
+Bojan Babic so.... u want people to learn how not to be a criminal while treating them like a criminal?
But they can't do anything they want, they can't walk out of the gate, they can't see there loved ones when they want. That is there punishment, loss of liberty not being treated barbarically like in American prisons where they have lost control and have to treat everyone Guantanamo bay style! (But that's a issue for another day lol).
"their statistics are in every metric" I see what you did there HAHAHA
He sure looks uncomfortable . . . the sadist in him must be furious . . . .
I hear this "sadist" is now pushing prison reform in the US
ruclips.net/video/OaXWT2tsFlA/видео.html
@Bard Erland so you're saying that his prison wardenship was bad because it was retributive i.e. only focussed on reforming people by punishing them. So what you then suggest is that he redeem himself from any damage that his prison inflicted on the inmates by having himself be inflicted with the same damage instead of growing as a human being by learning from Halden. Do you see the irony of your comment?
@Bard Erland ok let me make it a little simpler for you. You are saying that if he wants to make amends for his bad ideas about how prisons should be run then he should spend 50 years in the type of prison that he ran.
It is quite ironic that you think his way of running prisons is cruel and harmful and prisons should be more like Halden. Yet you suggest putting him in a cruel prison thereby making you more like him.
@Bard Erland He did get it! Just not in real time on camera. Because it challenged his entire world view. He went he listened and he changed his mind and invited the deputy warden of Halden Jan Stromnes to Attica prison to have a tour and give a lecture. This proves that the Norwegian model of treating someone like a human and explaining things to him worked...he is the proof. So why woukd you want to continue the cycle of pain with him instead of the prisoners.
Here is the video of Jan Stromnes in Attica: ruclips.net/video/OaXWT2tsFlA/видео.html
@Bard Erland He didn't believe there was a better way he was without knowledge. Your insistence on 50 years of punishment of James Conway seems even more perverse because you (if you had the power to do so) would be making a moral decision with knowledge of its consequences when you know there is a better way.
He has said more recently in the video i linked you that he believes Halden prison is a better prison so why would you force him to be held accountable to his old policy when he changed his mind since then?
James actually refers to himself as, "those of us in prison." He's a small-minded, frightened man who is absolutely sure prisoners are children, idiots, livestock. There are no human beings in US prisons. I'm so glad I got to see this. You'd never see anything like this in US media.
Well said!
I live in New York. I'm scared to know that man is in charge of a prison. I so wish I could afford to move to a Nordic country.
he is definitely set in his mind set as to what a prison is. But in the end you see that he isnt against what they have done but, At some point someone will buck the system that is the mind set . 1 person will ruin if for everyone. so if one person escapes we all have to be held in a jail, on person fights outside then none of us can go outside. he is like an engineer trying to remove every possible scenerio untill you have people locked in a cube 24/7 which we know, does nothing.
I think James is experiencing cognitive dissonance as he tries to come to grips with the reality and success of humanistic systems in Northern Europe and the failure and harm his life's work has done to his own country.
Well i liked how he said he would like to see the long term results but to date obviously their system works better then ours does when it comes to putting people back into the public life to live fruitfully.
"You choose crime..."
Suuure. There has never been a person who committed a crime out of desperation or anything >.>
FireFly Dani Or the millions of people arrested smoking a bit of weed
@Aldo Caprione You have your knowledge about psychopathy from Hollywood. There is no reason to throw away the key, capitalism works on pyschopathy. Apart from that most criminals are not psychopaths but have mental illenesses. The huge majority has stuff like depression, anxiety ect. Do you know who made those studies. Guess what, the Nordics! There is even a presentation from a Halden prison guard about that in YT.
So why are those illnesses connected with crime? Well, the hinder the patient from doing what everybody recommends: Do your studies, be good in school, get a job, sign up for this and that care, do taxes, don't take drugs to numb your mental pain,....
But hey, betteryou throw out some assumptions and hope it will get better.
If you're that desperate in the Nordics, you've already chosen to do something stupid to get you into that position. Even the poor people in the Nordics still have enough money for rent, food etc.
You *do* choose to be a criminal here, you're not "forced" to become criminal due to poverty or whatever.
also there are huge amounts of innocent people in american prisons currently. also the prison system is for profit so they try to prolong all sentences as much as they can for no real reason. and the whole god damn system is corrupt as fuck.
Pretty sure there are plenty of people in desperation who do not commit crimes.
The problem with Conway's point of view is he's rock-solid in his opinion that prisons need to be tough because prisoners are bad, when in reality, prisoners are bad because the prisons are tough. He sees utensils and plates as weapons because _his_ inmates would use them as such, but that's because American prisons are run in such a way that makes prisoners want to escape and use violence to do so, if necessary. When their needs are provided for and they are treated as human beings, they have no need to lash out. Why would you harm an officer if they're nice to you, and why would you need to escape if you have decent living conditions? It all comes back to the golden rule; treat the inmates how you would like to be treated, and you will get that treatment back from them, teaching them how to be empathetic and live in society at the same time.
I think that was just me saying the same thing five or six different ways, but hey, it gets the point across.
+Googlefluff857 He probably had people coming down on him mercilessly for any infractions in his youth, or maybe saw passive people get walked over constantly.
+Googlefluff857 So murderers, petty thieves, scammers, etc. are not bad until they reach prison...? This sort of backwards thinking is stupid. They are not evil, but these people did not get here accidentally, the prison had no part in getting them there in the first place.
+Sven Rudolf Fine. But once they are there, do you make them better? Or worse? Do you lift them up, or grind them down? Because what you cannot do is keep them there forever. Almost all of them will get out one day. Will you create a man, or a monster?
MistahMatzah
If you think the prisons alone create monsters you are mistaken. You're looking at 1 piece of a huge puzzle and putting all the blame on one thing
I never said there was a single cause. Every complex problem has multiple causes. Which should we ignore? Prison isn't the start of it that's true. Should we ignore its role in making the problem worse?
The Norweign guard that said that punishment for every little thing is outdated as an effective behavioral intervention was completely on the ball. The problem with American prisons is that we think punishment works. It may temporarily create compliance, but punishment that isn't seen as fair only makes people angrier, and thus more prone to recidivism. The large majority of people in prison in the US have grown up in poverty, are minorities, who come from broken homes, and not received good parenting and schooling in the first place. They go in feeling cheated by society, and prison exacerbates the problem. I would feel safer if they were given the tools & support they needed to heal. Only then could they be productive members of society, and it would make America a safer place to live.
America seems to like to blame or praise the individual for everything. But to think we each grow up in a vacuum independent of our environment is insane!
I don't think conservatives want to reform prisoners. I think for them the cruelty of the punishment is the whole point.
@@Thisnameistaken99999 That, and the prison industrial complex is an extremely lucrative business. Why take it away when a small minority can fill their pockets participating it?
You are correct.
Let us see James punish a lion for being a lion. and attempt to beat him for growling like a lion does.
It won't be long before the lion is totally pissed with being abused and tears James to pieces as a result
of his bad behavior towards the lion.
Though Lions are natural predators and unpredictable, James should watch the documentary about
" Christian the Lion' ... A lion born in captivity that was released in Africa.
One cannot rehabilitate prisoners with inhumanity and brutality.
James is not only living in the past, he is as thick as two bricks in refusing to explore other methods.
Exactly!
The bitter irony is: the prisoners _are_ productive members of society. They work for laughably low pay, companies that 'provide' money transfers / phone calls into prison are bleeding money out of the prisoners and their family members, and people in suits make money while prisoners catch CoVid19 and/or tuberculosis in over-crowded prisons.
If people care so awfully much for the victims or crime, why doesn't the money siphoned out of prisoners go to those victims?
And your are perfectly right: pretending that the upbringing, parenting and education we receive doesn't all but determine our chances is plain unscientific.
I was raised and live in the U.S. I know and understand our prison system's ideology, and while I always thought the implementation was bad, I did agree that prisoners should have no rights and that the most correct action was to remove criminals permanently from society. But then some very bad things happened in my life, and there were plenty of moments when the only thing between me and starvation, or me and freezing to death on a winter street, or me and a rapist... was what I was willing to steal, lie about, or illegally sell. What saved me from "slipping" farther down that "slope" was a safety net formed of 2 kind friends, 1 kind stranger, and a military injury. Today, I'm safe, housed, looked after, with a new family and a network of friends, and able to survive acceptably even if I'm not yet able to contribute to society again. Nobody is paying thousands to bail me out in an emergency, or paying thousands to house me in a prison (which thankfully, I've never had to experience), or paying thousands every time my poverty-related medical disasters put me in the hospital, because I had help and my life got stable.
But not everybody has that safety net. And even with mine... I look at these images, especially of Holden, and think, "If someone brought me to a place like this and said everything was going to be okay, that they'd help me, that my life didn't have to be destroyed by the stupid and desperate things I did, I'd cry. And the last thing on my mind would be to hurt the staff." I went YEARS without seeing real cutlery or having the chance to cook my own food-- sure, I might think of the forks as weapons, but why would I USE them that way when I could be making chicken quesadillas? American prisons are war zones. Anyone who compares them to boot camp-- which I DID go to, and which is designed to simulate wartime environments on purpose, to weed out whoever will break-- knows that. In war, you use every weapon that comes into your hands, against everyone who seems to be an enemy. You don't do that in a sane environment to people who are trying to help you.
I mean, insane people do. But somehow I doubt the people who designed Holden FORGOT to include mental health care, eh?
Wow, what a read. I hope that you are still doing well. Hopefully the whole world will learn one day, that treating everyone as humans is the only way to get rid of monsters. Sure we can lock them up forever, but the demons are still there. Only by helping them, can we find the person inside and release them from their own demons.
People don't know how much the punishment mentality is hurting not only the criminal, but the victims as well. Revenge and hatred towards another rarely does any good for you, whereas compassion and forgiveness can help yourself heal.
Hope you don't mind, but this is too well written for me not to share with my English language students. I hope you are doing much better. I wish you nothing but all the time in the world to make your place in it an awesome one. Cheers, from Toronto.
I'm glad you got lucky, and got help.
I'm lucky myself to have grown up in circumstances where I was never exposed to crime or drugs, and in a society that wouldn't have locked me away for a minor crime anyway.
But the thought that prisoners have no rights? It feels insane to me. It ignores that not all prisoners are guilty, and that some are prisoners for minor crimes. It ignores that the public defense system in the US is so underfunded that it little more than a pretense.
It ignores the whole concept of human rights.
It would literally mean that it's okay to torture and rape prisoners, or let them die of untreated diseases.
It would certainly explain Abu Ghraib, come to think of it. After all, if it's already established that US-citizens lose all their rights the moment you log them up ...
When your looking for the worst in people you eill find it. When your looking for the best in people you will find that to.
lol, did you notice the Americans face turning bright red when he was in the cell when they were talking about inmates being allowed to smoke in the cell? it looked like his head was gonna explode!
Oh yeah the US had a massive fight against the concept of smoking back in the day and made it completely taboo to smoke in pretty much all of the US. Such hasn't really happened to the same extent in Europe. I guess the best comparison when switching the roles would be the green transition and climate change. Only major difference apart from the role reversal is that cigarettes affected the individual, whereas climate change affects pretty much everybody everywhere.
His logic is: "we shouldn't treat the prisoners good because there will be some bad prisoners who will abuse the system." Well, then why should the good prisoners suffer because of the bad ones? What if some prisoners could be turned into good humans? Should we not give anyone a second chance?
they should suffer anyway since its a punishment.
i would never want my mothers murderer to ever get a second chance they should rot in there for their entire life for what they did, i think you would have thought the same.
Why is it then called "a correctional facility" if all you're talking about is "punish, rot" etc.?
dmitriid dont know, the people that hasnt had their lives destroyed probably thought that up
+ARVIN All prisoners were bad by the standards of their societies. That's why they're in prison.
Nope. It became "correctional facilities" as people became more civilized.
When you treat a prisoner like an animal, no matter his/her offense, you better damn well expect them to leave the prison an animal - and then very, very most likely get themselves caged again for another offense. There seems to be a profound underlying difference in views of humanity in general between the US penal system and the Nordic countries'. You don't ever have to deny the fact that who ever is in prison may have done something that was "deserving" of them being put there, but it's also understanding that they need the guidance and compassion that they have never or very seldom received throughout their lives.
just like boot camp teaches people to kill without remorse
+grayfiresoul Well said! One can't get blinded with rage and thoughts of revenge, that does'nt solve anything. I belive in our model. Kind Regards from Norway:)
Bixby Noodum I am pretty sure most of the nordic people seeing your comment would think you are the animal. You will not be able to provoke many people here with such unintelligent nonsense.
Bixby Noodum
Go away troll...
+Bixby Noodum awww you need a hug:) You're such a Internet tough guy, soo cute!
24:05 This is the first time I see a humane prison like this. But I understand where they are going with it. I mean, it's pretty simple isn't it? If you learn how to play an instrument in prison and find yourself enjoying it, there's a good chance that when you're released, you'll invest more time into doing that, instead of you know, crime.
James is a perfect example of how the U.S. criminal justice system implements a system of fear in their officers in order to justify inhumane treatment. It gives the officers an easy coping mechanism to distance themselves and not look at the prisoners as people.
There is no comparison of both societies. America and Scandinavia are two different worlds. On this level USA are about 100 years behind Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark.
Many centuries
i hate to say it but.. it's like america vs muslim countries . and now it is scandinavia vs america :S there is just so much going on in america because of how many people that live there and the evolution lags behind somewhat! not to say that america is all bad because america has alot of good stuff going on as well. i'm sorry that is the best way i could explain it (not a native english speaker)
Janusz Sztyber Im from Norway and I totally disagree. Our prison system is a joke.
I'm Finnish and I always knew our prisons were good but damn, Norway just takes it to a whole new level.
In the US prisons are an industry and there is profits involved in keeping them full.
@@AdelineCowgirl Yes but the prisons make more money
Modern slavery under the law. USA is pathetic.
Really?
@@samanthalewis2419 Yeah really.
And the profits do _not_ go to the crime victims that James Conway is so concerned about.
America focuses on punishing the prisoners and then after X amount of time just lets them free.
We focus on to better the inmates so that when we release them they become law abiding citizens with the will to do only good.
I'd say we have done alright so far :)
Yup. However, if one was homeless all they needed to do was commit a crime and boom they get free reservation.
Unless you guys have reached the moral and economical high-point so nobody is homeless...
Jozza117 I am unsure of my fellow Nordic brothers but in my island everyone can get a roof over their heads, food, clothing and the help they need to get back on their feet.
We have in a sense homeless people but they never have to sleep outside, wear rags for clothes and can always get 3 to 4 meals every day.
That and one of the things we help ex criminals with are things like employment, education, housing, food and few other things.
Jozza117
_"Unless you guys have reached the moral and economical high-point so nobody is homeless..."_
Homelessness actually is virtually nonexistent in Nordic countries and it should be in the US as well for the simple reason that homelessness isn't a result of there being a housing shortage. It's solely a result of the US having a shit system for social security. Not that you can't find homeless people in Nordic countries, but those are extremely few people who basically have chosen it themselves and refuse to be part of government programs to improve their situation. The kind of homeless person we don't have is the "severely down on one's luck, but still willing and able to contribute to society". Such people will not be living in tents in the forest or under bridges ever, the government will simply ensure a minimum standard of living for them while they get their lives in order rather than let their situation degenerate to the point where their body odor may be the main barrier to getting a job.
If you exclude the naysayers who don't give a fuck, social services are available to make sure that everyone can get basic housing and clothing. The only thing that is demanded of people is that they either document that they are actively trying to get jobs or that they participate in government job training/reeducation programs or medical programs preparing them for such job training.(Say if the person was a drug addict etc, the social services offices will deal with trying to clean the person up). There are also programs for people who simply are too sick to ever get back to work, but they generally don't apply to people who are just homeless.
Plz... search for The Catedral in Colombia... really....
Jozza117 Homeless people do that in the United States was well. Living on the street is miserable, even more miserable then our shitty prison system.
Either way I'd much rather provide food and dry place for homeless people to sleep then pay for incarcerating black men with the misfortune of being caught with a joint.
It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” ― Upton Sinclair.
The American (James Conway) is not a stupid, man. Like all US law officials, he knows deep down in his heart that he financially and personally benefits from slavery, so its hard for him to say and do the right thing. Our task, as decent liberal people, is to take the whip out of his hand.
It only took him four years to change his mind, at least somewhat, so credit where credit's due:
ruclips.net/video/haHeDgbfLtw/видео.html
It's about perspective. He doesn't understand wile the prisoners in the US are institutionalised so is he as a warden.
When you look at a thing from one perspective alone its difficult to see that there are other perspectives to.
He hasn't experience working in.the nordic system. He is used to working in an setting where its dangerous and inhumane. And very set in his way
If human rights of prisoners can be taken away, then they are by definition not existential rights, and therefore NOBODY has ANY human rights.
its either EVERYBODY, or NOBODY. there is no gray area with human rights.
@Who Am i Wrong. If something is a human rights, then all human beings have it.
Rights that can be stripped away are civil rights, e.g. the right to freedom.
no offense to James but people like him are a huge problem here in the states. just listen to the way here talks like a lifeless robot no humanity left.
He is now trying to reform the prison system.
Believe in Jesus and you can have everlasting life and be saved :) read John 3:16 in the bible
ClockinLoot : The guards are filled with stress, overeating, and the worst of it, they are likely to abuse their spouses.🤦🏻♀️ It would OBVIOUSLY be a happier life to be one in Norway 🇳🇴.
Chris Redfield : yes, i’ve not been one, but he did specify ‘for an inmate👉🏾and to punish a guard for playing ping-pong is proof that none of this is ‘natural’. i did see that presentation.
still...i keep thinking about Kalief Browder, beaten, thrown into solitary, and drugged.💔
Cause the english kicked out the worse of the worse off to the US and Australia, genetics are a hell of a thing.
As a past victim of serious crimes, I'd rather the offender gets the help and tools to not do the same to others. Proper medical treatment, education and an environment that nurtures respect and humanity (instead of the harshness and cruelty criminals are often used to) I believe to be the way for this to happen.
Show and grow the worldview you want them to accept and adopt, and a future for them to be excited about.
I think you only need to look at the stats at 1:39 to be absolutely sure that the US style of prison equals punishement only doesn't scale. Inmates per 100000 population should be pretty constant around the world if systems work equally good. In reality the US has 10x the amount of inmates per 100k population! I don't think an average US citizen has 10x change to commit crimes compared to Nordic countries.
And the most important part is the psychology: how on Earth the inmates could have normal state of mind at the end of prison sentence if they only get punishment? Do you think raising dogs using punishment as the only tool is the best way? Why do you think trying to get humans to learn new way of living would be any different?
America is a very young country. It has a lot to learn.
Actually, they saw what everyone else has done wrong, and decided not to repeat those mistakes.
l337pwnage Indeed, they instead have made their own separate mistakes - some basically the same, some worse, some less so.
Finland is even younger then the US
Eric jonsson And Norway (as an Independent nation)
Google sucks cock 'America is the only country that progressed from barbarism to decadence without developing civilization in between'
"I'd like to see it go for five years and see what happens" ... Did anyone tell him that Halden had been running for four years already when he visited it?
@Jussi West they do. its maximum security. look it up
That's really a "I can't find anything going wrong with it, so I'll insinuate something _has_ to go wrong at some point" line.
Prisons which treat their inmates like human beings go against anything he's done in the last few decades, so he doesn't like it, it scares and confuses him => something _has_ to be wrong about it.
@@Julia-lk8jn he doesn't want to feel guilty. He's rationalising his twisted ideology
@@Julia-lk8jn It's always hard for an any individual to accept the possibility that the work they have done for decades might have actually been more of a problem than a solution.
The nordic prisons serve a different function than prisons do so many other places. In the US for example, they put people there to punish them. But a result of that, is a high revisiting rate.
In the nordic countries, we do not punish people, instead we rehabilitate the prisoners. Is that fair to the victims? Maybe not. But by rehabiliting the prisoners, you will lower the amount of victims out there.
It's a choice you have to take. Do you want to punish people, so it's fair, where the downside is that you will create more victims of crimes?
Or do you want to rehabilitate prisoners, so you will have lower crime rates and not as many victims. The downside beeing, it may not be fair to the victim.
+Marcus Ryser why should prison inmates get higher standard of living than the working class, or the guards that work the prison?
Badger at Toad Hall Befcause the result of that seems to be, that you get lower crime rates, and thereby fewer victims. You can either punish the people who do wrong, and get the same amount of victims.
Or you can treat them well, and get a lower amount of victims. That's at least what the statistics seem to indicate, when you compare the norwegian prisons to american prisons, as an example.
Do i think it's fair? No, i think it's hugely unfair. But i personally prefer, that you have fewer victims, over more victims, and a more fair system if you will.
Marcus Ryser Norwegian prisons are full of Norwegians though. I work in a prison; just controlling violence for failing to pay gambling debts is a pain.
+Marcus Ryser In one way one could say that the american way of doing prisons are the emotionally loaded way of doing things, and the nordic is cynical. It is cynical because we do what is best for society, while having less emphasis on the emotional feelings of justice and retribution.
These are really cold, hard and effective ways of rehabilitating criminals to turn back into citizens, but not effective punishments.
Taeerom I work in a state prison as a guard. the Nordic method would never work here. for one thing the Nordic prison is much more homogeneous. second well they are filled with Nordics. what happens when one of the inmates cant pay a gambling debt? I can tell you what happens here.
This guy James reacted way too overboard over an inmate who didn't want to be shown on camera. He knew nothing of this mans history or why he was in prison and yet he classifies him as deserving of no consideration because he is in prison. Taking away persons dignity is not going to make him any more compliant. Apparently their system is working for them as the number of their citizens in prison is way lower than ours in America.
James was a strong believer of punishment and didn't want to give *any rights* to inmates. If the inmate could decide if they want to be shown on camera, that would be about giving the inmates right to make decisions.
It seemed that James could just barely understand that the US system might not be the optimal solution considering the human psychology in the end.
"Who cares how they feel?"
- James Conway
Thank god that sadist is retired
Great show. What about health? I know you don't exist for the American public, but It drives me crazy that Americans continue to think it's normal to pay $10,000 every time you walk into a hospital, and believe the bullshit that "socialized" systems are inferior. As an American with a German partner who travels a lot, I've received healthcare in many countries, and the only place where it was worse than in the US was when I was when I was in Myanmar. I've never received care in a Nordic country, but the care in Germany was outstanding. What's care like in Nordic countries?
Michela dai zovi Thanks for watching and for the suggestion! Health care and social security in general is one of the main topic contenders if we'll get the possibility to do a second season of this series.
Michela dai zovi >What's care like in Nordic countries?
It can be good, but.. it's like you're just a person in the system, and waiting times for surgery and other stuff are generally long . In order to get something you really have to ask for it. Nobody's going to give you healthcare unless you say you need it and why.
Also, it's not completely free. There are fees, but they are low and if you come up to a certain amount you get a free card.
Michela dai zovi Well in Rhodesia it is crap, have money no prob.
Noone Cares Public hospital and doctor visits are free in Denmark, no fees.
*****
yes sir I wasted my youth defending Rhodesia from terrorism, oh no. Wait I walked away with the clothes on my back and thanks to my family investing wisely enough to buy a larger property in outback Australia and I got to hunt some big game black freedom fighters. Yes sir what has changed for me, not much why I even have a garden boy like before and I am drinking a rum and coke watching the sunset yes sir life is good. Good luck finding a job in the new Zimbabwe.
This just shows the massive mentality difference between the USA and the Nordic countries. Prisons are not there for the victims to get revenge or to just punish bad guys, which Conway seems to think. The prisons are there to keep the rest of the country safe and functioning. That is it. The country as a whole doesn't care if a victim is happy about the sentence of a criminal. It's not a "Hahah! We got you!!" thing. Just punishing someone doesn't change anything. The crime has still been committed, the victims are still victims etc. Making the criminals' lives a living hell changes nothing for anyone. What's the point? Who does that help?
It kinda annoyed me that they didn't get into the sentence length as well though, since that's one of the main differences in my opinion. If your criminals are never going to get out anyway, there's no point in trying to rehabilitate them, which is the case for a lot of people in the USA. It isn't here in the Nordic countries though. The prisoners will get released. Even the murderers etc. So when they get released, society as a whole has a huge interest in them being functional human beings who are able to reintegrate into society, able to hold a job etc. That's why the focus is on rehabilitation instead of punishment.
If you're sentenced to 10 years in prison, that's enough time to really fuck up a human being if he or she is treated like an animal for those years. He or she will never be a normal, functioning human being when released and chances are he or she will be back in the prison system shortly after being released. That is all he or she knows after all.
The statistics speak for themselves. Recidivism is much lower in the Nordic countries than in the USA, so clearly this stuff works unlike the American system. But of course.. If you have a for-profit prison system, having a lot of prisoners is in your interest I suppose.. And if they keep coming back that just means more money for the owner.
Crazy system.
This prison director from USA have it all wrong. The prison is responsable (part of a bigger system ofcourse) for for the populations security, and if that means being responsable for changing the behaviour of prisoners, then thats part of their job. End of story. This is not a prisoner vs prison guard situation, as a guard you represent the society. Sorry for my bad English.
Poor old James looks absolutely devastated! I wonder if he accepts that the statistics on crime and repeat offending show that the model works?
The final thing he says is that he's curious how well it works and is prepared to say that he was wrong. Although I think prisons should focus on rehabilitation, he comes from a place with gang wars in prisons. He's probably not wrong in saying that inmates would abuse the system
IN the US prison system they need the gang system just to stay alive, if everyone felt safe and cared for, they wouldn't be worries about being shivved in the back when you take a shower with 50 other dudes.
@@jamesbutler606 i watch a newer clip with the halden warden at attica with james conway . 4 year latter jame conway said i have seen halden it works they had one assault in 4 year how many have we had one last Tuesday there system works a complete change of mind
The thing that I value so much about projects like this is that governments should be able to undertake these sorts of experiments.
Unfortunately, the US government is constantly attacked by conservatives in this country whose main argument is that government doesn't work.
They'll point to crime issues as evidence that the government doesn't work.
The warden is a great example of he kind of mind that perpetuates the use of outmoded models that are completely ineffective.
Someone should have asked him directly, "What is the role of the prison?"
so we should advocate for liberals, yeah?
chopaface It's not about liberal or conservative policies, it's about policies that work.
If you start off with the faulty assumption that government "can't" work, then how are you ever supposed to find out what works?
I study policies in education. I notice that studies examined in Scandinavian countries are often incompatible with North American culture. We have to find our own way.
chopaface There was a time when racial integration was incompatible with North American Culture.
Canad operates like a European Social Democracy.
We used to think that government could give be useful when it was run correctly.
We've had decades of people saying that it can't.
Government works as well as we want it to.
We haven't found our own way, because we incarcerate something like 25% of the world's prisoners.
Or, we've found really stupid ways to do it, and we shouldn't accept that.
"What is the role of the prison?" He did answer to that indirectly, that prisons should not be comfortable, that inmates should not want to return, hence that it needs to be an uneasy and unpleasant punishment. Unfortunately that kind of mind set does not rehabilitate people. on the contrary, it just makes them less capable to live in society and more likely to commit crime again. But that's quite acceptable for the USA's for-profit private prison system.
I think the numbers speak quite clearly as to which system works best. You have to ask yourself if your goal is to punish, come hell or high water, to make the prisoner suffer, or, do you want a better functioning society for everybody with more happiness, less fear and less crime?
"Who cares whet they feel" Conway says about the inmates. Well, the person, whom the inmate goes and commits a crime on after release as a way to regain self esteem after having been broken on prison cares!
So he shouldn't be released is what you say?
I am from Poland and I am impressed, I heard that Scandinavian prisons are like this, but It's more than I expected. Documentary is great, and It was nice to watch.
About the prisons as a whole. It's like this because of how scandinavian see things, they way of life I think. This system wouldn't work in any other part of the world, I think. But I think it's the best way, to focus on resocializing, not punishment itself.
Thank you for the video. :)
Polish women are about as nice as our welfare system, and that says alot.
I've worked in a Canadian prison a few years ago (max security) as an IT security intern. The approach in that facility was somewhat a middle ground between the American and the Scandinavian approaches. I'd say that it's very important to show how inmates reintegrate society and how the social services (and society in general) help them after their release.
Very interesting to see Norden from an Americans point of view. And kind of sad to see his attitude towards them and it. And while I understand that he has most likely seen horrific things in his line of work, it's just not how it's done here. Luckily. I wouldn't want our prisons to turn into anything like the american prisons.
Just found this series on RUclips and I absolutely love it. Thanks for your work and uploads!
"you put yourself here"
Well, that depends entirely on how the law is enforced and what laws are enforced. In nazi germany you might say the jews put themselves in the camps for being jews, and you might ssay the falimy amn that smoked weed one time and got caught, an is now serving a few years in prison for it, put himself there, doesn't make the law any more just.
Going through the entire judicial system with a lawyer is very fair. It would be idiotic to have the different levels of law enforcement question each other. He said "you put yourself here" because it's not his or any of the staff's job to play detective or feel sorry for the felons. His job is to keep them inside a closed prison away from society, and nothing else. These prisoners aren't stoners, they are animals that will steal,kill, and take anything they can from citizens. You should educate yourself about what crimes qualify for prison time or jail, and learn there is a difference between the two, and then start learning about what goes on in prisons before creating such a goofy scenario.
BennnnyBoooom Keeping high security and holding the prisoners accountable for their actions is good. The attitude he displays is problematic because it's essential the inmates are encouraged to change but he dosn't think that's the wardens' job and wont even let them interact with inmates.
You can't treat people like animals and expect them to behave. If you treat them like people there's at least a much better chance they will.
Kjernekar As soon as I heard him say that, my face went straight into the palm of my hand.
Also the Nordic justice system isn't built on racism, profit and quasi slavery.
also american prison system is corrupt as fuck so there are a lot of innocent people in prisons, and a lot of prisons are for profit so they try to extend your sentence for the smallest and dumbest “offences”, so you could end up serving really long time for really small crimes.
I think the nordic prisons make a lot of sense. It's a calming atmosphere so it's easy to collect their thoughts and really think about their future. This may not work for the really hardcore criminals, like serial killers, and gang members, but for the less dangerous criminals, especially the younger ones this kind of facility makes a lot more sense. The American prisons however, pretty much just leave prisoners at the mercy of the other prisoners, which doesn't exactly help curb violent tendencies. If you put a lowly robber in the same facility as a people who murder obviously they are going to come out of prison more violent. In fact a lot of people come out of prison tougher and more violent. Tougher might be seen as a good thing to some people, but when it comes to criminals that's really bad, since the tougher a criminal is, the violent the crime.
Thank you for making these programs. I find them absolutely fascinating. I'm from western Europe and I love seeing the faces on the American guests. This one was one of the best.
I'm a big fan of the Nordic model.
Thanks for the subtitles, also.
Excellent work, Mr. Stark. Can't wait to check out the other episode.
Stephanie Dvelop Thanks for the kind words! On behalf of the team, I'm happy you enjoyed the series.
Glad to have seen this. These have been my thoughts on the U.S. prison system for a long time. James is a dutiful person I can see that but I completely disagree when he said that a staffer was chastised for interacting with the inmates. Removing someone from society, locking them down, denying all rights and human interaction, what kind of person do you think will emerge? If they were able to make sound decisions on their own, they wouldn't be in prison so why wouldn't it be the prisons goal to guide them to that resolution and help them seek the reflection he says they should find themselves? I can only imagine because they don't believe they can change. The man with the hood was also obvious to me. In America, prison time is an automatic red flag for possible employment in almost every decent job especially with the increasingly normal practice of background checks. Even those who have shown a complete 180 for the most minor of crimes may very well face hard times finding decent employment for the rest of their lives. Their lives (especially their chosen careers if any) are essentially irrevocably changed. I won't deny that some have made bad decisions and put themselves there but to destroy their future only promotes future crimes and poverty. Prisons should be a place of reintegration; education and compassion within a structured environment. For some this might even be the first time they've experienced that. Like many others have said, if you treat them like scum, they will behave as such and this vicious cycle will continue.
+David Keener
Well said!
Corrected your sentence here: in America, prison time is an automatic red flag for possible *unemployment* in almost every decent job especially with the increasingly normal practice of background checks.
The full "Police" episode has just been published with subtitles in English. It's available here: ruclips.net/video/jbM9uCxEJDM/видео.html
I really want to see more episodes of The Norden. Especially the religious one. These are amazing. I wish America were more similar to Scandinavia, if we were we'd practically be a near perfect country.
Thanks for the kind words; I hope to be able to upload more episodes soon. A best-case scenario would be that some American broadcasting company would buy the rights to show this series over there as well :) Let's see what happens. Thanks for watching!
oxZombieQueenxo Here's the full episode on religion, with subtitles in English: The Norden - Religion
Hope you enjoy!
Brilliant serie :) He didnt seem impressed at all, rather shocked.
Tusen takk :)
There's another documentary where 4 years later James actually admits that he was wrong here. He talks about how there was one serious incident between an inmate in Halden in the 4 years. And in his prison, there was an incident last Tuesday.
He sits with a few prisoners where one prisoner says "80% of those incarcerated are released. Who do you want as your neighbor? Someone who did nothing their whole sentence, or one who is educated and skilled?"
Thanks for this great series of documentaries, they should be shown in the US!
the reason in the U.S. that every inmate code is Inmates vs guards is because they are trained to treat people like shit and get in trouble for interacting with the inmates as he said at the end (they were hired for security lmao) i bet money if ping pong tournaments were set up in a organized fashion then the security would be much better then having a stuck up guard walk around the block with his nose up in the air like he is better then u, the main point here is prison guards in the u.s. act like their shit dont stink and there better then everyone and think they automatically get respect but thats not the way life goes anywhere, u show me respect and i give it back is what i was always told... No wonder bullying is such a big problem here now days
Best series I've seen on youtube for a long time
Thank you for this! Looking forward to rest of the episodes
Hey Indigo, thanks. An excerpt from the episode regarding religion can be seen here: The Norden - Religion
I'll try to get the full episode uploaded soon.
John Stark Thanks for the work done on these episodes, looking forward to seeing more.
SponzifyMee
Here's the full episode on religion, with subtitles in English: The Norden - Religion
This is a great system, however, it may not work if implemented into America *right away* because there is a difference in American culture and Nordic culture. America has been systematically getting fucked in the ass over time and the people there are more hardened.
***** That is a good argument.
Yeah if this is the system in America there would be homeless committing crimes left and right to get into prison.
***** Well, either that or it's gang related.
Here in Denmark, when we have shootings, it's mostly gang on gang crime, not some dude with a gun just shooting a civilian because whatever.
And in the case of gang on gang crime... it's a horrible thing to say, but is there really a victim? (if only the intended person got shot that is)
***** Oh for fuck sake... that simply will not do.
Why the hell wasn't the person arrested?
Didn't Norway learn to stop this kind of shit after Breivik?
I mean, maniacs are maniacs, but you need to stop maniacs. It doesn't matter what their motivation of objective is.
***** In my opinion, there are perfectly rational and natural reasons for the xenophobia that we see... But that still doesn't mean that I agree with it.
Of course, here in Denmark, immigrants from middle-eastern and asiatic countries have a statistically higher crime rate. Whatever the reason for that is, I think that people who are just inherently anti-*insert population demographic here* are being morons. Shit like this won't get resolved in even 3 generations. Give it 100 years. Then it should be sorted out.
The more I look, the more Danish the people who came here in the 60's are. I know many from the middle-east who are pretty much like any other Dane, except maybe their name and their dialect. Besides that, they eat pork, they drink alcohol etc. They're basically just as muslim as most danes are christian.
To be fair, you should respect the laws and customs of the land you go to. I don't expect to have any kind of right to eat pork and drink alcohol if I move to Qatar or Saudi Arabia just because I come from a country where such things are allowed. So a certain amount of integration and submission to the customs of the land is a requirement. But I feel that many people will never be satisfied.
"They have to abandon their customs!".
They have.
"They have to be more Danish in their customs!"
They are.
"They have to abandon their religion!"
They have.
"They have to take Danish names!"
They have.
"They have to look Danish! But without fucking Danish women!"
... That is going to be a problem.
That's basically how I feel some of those morons think..
TL;DR
Xenophobes might have some reason behind their bigotry, but it's still not good enough to excuse their behaviour.
I apologize if I'm a bit fragmented in my speech pattern :S
Fascinating and well done episode. Thank you for sharing.
Thanks Angel for the kind words - I appreciate it a lot! Thanks for watching!
Enjoyed that. Thanks for the upload
thank u for these documentaries , specialy with english subs !
For those interested, according to the follow-up documentary "Breaking the Cycle", there has been just one incident in this last facility since the visit: An inmate hit another inmate with a piece of wood in the workshop. That's it.
Well, the prison has been open for five years now, no murders or even serious violent injuries so far. One inmate did hit another over the head with a guitar, though :p Apparently he had to get some stitches, and the overly-eager guitarist received a few more months to his sentence.
Thanks for the upload. Liking the concept for the series. Please upload future episodes.
Hey, thanks for the kind words. An excerpt from the episode regarding religion can be seen here: The Norden - Religion
I'll try to get the full episode uploaded soon.
his face was so epic, the look of a man that is on being confronted with, that everything that he believed, is wrong. priceless!
James hold on to the belief to free will so much that he denies being an influence to others actions. This is the most common problem to many justice systems as they do not take responsibility of the negative causal effects a law or principle might bring.
Norway is on the front of making a justice system based on scientific conclusions instead of religious.
Wow impressive series and just Wow!!
OpenOther Thanks for the kind words, I really appreciate it!
How beautiful. To see this man's tension melt when he realises how trustful a society can build and how seing people with dignity help build repect.
I hope he realizes that all of this could be done because of political actions and massive investment of all citizens, in social fields as well as education.
This episode is thought-provoking and Americans can learn from some of this. However, there are too many variables between Scandinavia and the USA to simply compare prison systems.
Gary Kozlowski Thanks for watching. I agree completely, and the aim of this episode, and the series as a whole, isn't to merely compare systems, but rather to function as a starting point for a discussion about, in this case, the way we treat our inmates and people who have committed crime.
It's as you said, there are a lot of variables. I read a lot of comments from Scandinavians in order to reach this one where they thought James was laughing at the system at hand. It seemed more like he was laughing in awe. As in when you see something so extravagant, you just laugh because you can't believe it.
I know that a lot of people in the US would like to just change the prisons, education, etc to be more like Norway but they forget that all of the things that go into that society in general. The Scandinavian people seemed to be more well-mannered, relaxed and forgiving. Which is why their system works. Not so much like that in the US.
I also missed some info on what kind of prisoners they had where and why we treat our prisoners this way. Like, I know why because I'm Scandinavian and seek out this sort of info but not everyone does. There wasn't ever any kind of explanation for what any specific treatment was supposed to help. Like, yes, they said the music room was for interaction between guards and inmates, but couldn't they have given even a brief explanation for how that helped? Did I miss something?
Gary Kozlowski hey there kozlowski nice to see more of us out there
***** You might be surprised, but comments on RUclips aren't the best indicators of the intent of producers of a show.
Really amazing. I'd love to see if these prison models would work in Buffalo or Brooklyn. Please set it up as a social experiment and document it!
It would, just you'll need to wait years for the results to come in. It's also not cheap.
Thank you for this full episode with English subtitles. Please upload the others when you get a chance. Very good work. I will share your videos, as I think that more Americans could benefit by watching your documentaries. Main stream America is about consumerism, money, and greed... corporations. Not enough humanity and from the heart.
Well Susan, I truly thank you for watching, and I am happy that you're sharing your thoughts here. Thanks for sharing the video as well - great if as many as possible can watch this!
Its just so much fun seeing his reactions.
WOW! Nordic countries and people are amazing, as a North American, I cannot believe how challenges are viewed within your society. I wish our country/society held similar views. You are very lucky! Nordic people....
James Conway is also in his own prison with his small minded view of things. This guy is not fit for the job, because Norway and other Northern European country's proved it works, but he is still in denial. He doesn't want to learn, but to tell the Norwegen what to do. Sad man!
I am an American and really respect the idealism of the Norwegian system not only prison but educational and financial as well. This system works and to anyone complaining about not seeing numbers just do some personal research and you can see the proof. 20% re-incarceration in Norway VS. almost 60% in the USA. We americans are seriously doing something wrong. and it is not our prisoners its our system. how can we call our prisons correctional facilities or rehabilitation centers if our prisons do neither of those. our systems are simply herding facilities where we overcrowd those who have made mistakes. Norway has the right idea, focus on rehabilitation and release them to work. bring in taxes rather than use them.
James Fox I think the problem starts with the privatized prison industry. They have a vested interest in having as many people in prison as possible so they spend a ton of money lobbying for harsher penalties. Obviously the prison industry have no interest in rehabilitation either, they want the repeat business.
For politicians it's an easy choice, they think they gain votes by being tough on crime so they are happy to oblige the industry.
The prison business is the modern slave trade, it must be abolished.
FDK Oh i agree completely with that, but another issue is that to many people are blind to the benefits of rehabilitation and the financial benefits of having reformed law abiding citizens in the work force paying taxes rather than in the system draining taxes. To many people focus on the victims wants as well and it has been pointed out that we live in a short term world. the victims 9 times out of 10 have moved on and forgiven a criminal long before their sentence is over.
I think it has to do with the sort of mentality that is required in the Nordic countries. I heard in Denmark that it is looked down upon if you try to stand out. Nordic countries have high accessibility in health and social services as well as free or highly subsidized education fees. In America, it is all about standing out, which can cause a lot of problems (the louder I am, the better you can hear me). In Japan, standing out is rude and believed to be incompatible with their societal values and beliefs. In China, everyone just keeps to themselves in the public sphere and only perform in the markets (hence why China lacks creativity in innovative thinking and originality). In Germany, they believe in academic freedom but lack civil freedom (hence Germany turned to a period of extreme nationalism: Nazism). In America, they do not believe in academic freedom but have a higher degree of civil freedom (hence affirmative action, no child left behind, women's rights). In Latin America, they lack civil freedom but have intense research facilities and highly accessible public education in post-secondary level (founded during communism).
Strange world...
Oh, I'm giving out educational references because that's what I specialize in, I am a master student in education policy.
James Fox Im a norwegian and im completely against our system in Norway. It doesnt serve any justice at all. Just a laugh in the face to all victims. Embarrasing. There should be a middle way.
@Maniac577 and what counts as justice? Your comments you've been making suggests that you would prefer to make a bad situation even worse. No one should have to suffer at the hands of others, but punishing people harshly doesn't solve anything. Never has, never will. Unless you advocate wide-spread death penalty or life in prison without parole at the expense of the tax payer (more a punishment for the tax payer than the prisoner) there is really no effective means of punishment.
Rehabilitation at least makes it so we don't have to punish ourselves further. We toss their asses in jail for a few years. We try to make them productive members of society and we give them another shot.
It seems you're quite hellbent on revenge. I have never heard of anyone ... At least no one sane who actually felt better after revenge. It doesn't give closure. That damage is done. A hole that is left in a person stays there. Does it actually make anything better to do evil things that you call justice but really mean vengeance?
15:56 that sounds like laughter from a true sadist!
Please post the rest of the series!! Americans need to see this
I find the look in his eyes and his body language the most interesting. He looks like he is in total disbelief and at the same time, he seems to get that there must be something to it or the system wouldn't work for these countries, which it seems to do. He looks like his belief system is being massively challenged, like he doesn't understand the world anymore.
The full episode on religion of series can be seen here, with subtitles in English: ruclips.net/video/W-kANR1vJkM/видео.html
I really do like this, but we see nothing of inmate life inside Kumla prison other than that is nicer and less crowed that an equivalent US facility. We also don't see their rehabilitation. You guys should have taken a look at US minimum security prisons, if you wanted to compare apples to apples. .
David Eno I do wish that these were twice as long so we could see more.
***** You don't need an inmate directly on screen. They just really needed to show more of 'life' inside these prisons. Maybe give some statistics on incidents. There are very different challenges in the US.
***** What you have to understand Frank Is that the societal mentality of our offenders. Violence is mainstream here in the states. You can't say fuck on T.V. but you can shoot someone in the face, and that's ok!!!. I am not saying or method is right, but we have a lot of people who truly don't care. It's very sad.
eggsalad0071 Solid response. I'm neither Nordic nor American but it's good to very occasionally see a thoughtful comment rather than flaming.
Hi John. I sent you a message to your RUclips inbox. There is an American think tank pursuing the same conversations, engagement, and education about the Nordic model as your documentary series does that would like to communicate with you. This is an exceptional series. Thank you so much for providing us in the world outside Norway with this great perspective about what makes the Nordic model so promising for humanity.
Whoa! Wait...Americans can think?! Nah-bro. You're bluffing. HAHA! Man! You almost--you--er--almost had me---oh...crap. Sorry you're being serious. Yeah, man. Let's hope that America can be humans again. The world's with you on this one at least.
There is one thing I do really miss here John Stark, and that's the statistics on how many prisoners that returns to crime after serving time in prison.
The reason for requesting that information is that I know the statistics. The thing about the scandinavian model is that it works. The numbers doesn't lie. The ending here, with this guy asking about stabbings and so on can be answered, we do have data about it. Maybe not from Halden prison, but from Bastøy prison.
I am amazed that someone can look at the idea of treating people with dignity is a radical idea. It really does work most of the time.
This is a great documentary! Looking forward to the episode with the American Pastor...
Hey, have you seen the excerpt from that episode? It's here: The Norden - Religion
I'll try to get the full episode with English subtitles uploaded soon. Thanks for watching!
John Stark yes I did see the excerpt and it seems amazing.
John Stark Thanks man. These documentaries are great!
Jon Westman
My pleasure. Thanks for watching!
Panagiotis Alexiou
Here's the full episode on religion: The Norden - Religion
Another episode of this series is now published. It's about gender roles and gender equality (and neutrality). It can be watched here: ruclips.net/video/vMdfQ2MXHB0/видео.html
John Stark I saw that episode already, it was interesting too, keep making more of these episodes please. A crucial part of what makes these shows work is that you choose intelligent, relatable non-Nordic people to represent the outsider point of view. The preacher, the LAPD cop, the Russian housewife were not chosen to look ridiculous but to be an effective counterpoint. It's admirable that you're willing to consider whether your Nordic method is really the ideal. That's what makes the show really interesting, don't lose that. Good work.
waltereg0 You're right, I love the approach that they take in these videos, very interesting.
***** the majority in Halden prison is non-Norwegian/immigrants
+waltereg0
not to brag but that is what documentaries and newscasts are like in scandinavia. if they invite people on its not to make them look stupid its an honest consideration of their views. its one of the basis of our success; that were quick to learn from others lessons. britain invented the train and america the internet but swedens rail and fiber networks put both to shame. its not so much that we are smart as much as we are willing to listen to smart people and be objective about our own views and habits. critical thinking is very much encouraged in our school systems. if you can correct the teacher expect a good grade.
+Invesigator Why ? . Do you think treating them bad will help . A little more compassion, an kindness, often goes a long way
My jaw dropped when i saw Gibsons hanging in that studio. I couldnt believe it!
I'm Swedish and I'm chocked :O The maximum security prisons here are secure and strict as they should be. Halden baffles me.
TitanGaming Halden prison is actually designed as a maximum security prison with lots of concrete, intricate tunnel system and high fences and so forth. They did not show the high security features because it was obviously the inmate living standard that was the main attraction.
There is definitely a cultural aspect to this, and I think a prison like that would indeed NOT work in the US as they are today.
I kinda regret that the staff people don't seem really prepared to explain and defend their system and point of view, like they're taking it for granted. They're just saying "Well that's how we do things" and leave it at that.
They could work and have different setting for different people. If you're a rule breaker you go to a more strict prison and have to work yourself back down to a "nicer" prison. Those who cause no problems and do their time should be treated fairly and humanly as possible. The Nordic model can work for New York and many other states.
I'm from Sweden, and our prison system used to look a lot more like the current one in the US, it took several decades for it to become what it's been for the past 30 years or so. In other words, I think you could arrive there eventually, but it will take time and a lot of work, and a lot of educating the general population on how you best prevent crime and recidivism, plus making people understand that revenge might not be in their own best interest, regardless of the inmate's feelings.
About the staff, I think the main problem was that they had to speak English instead of having an interpreter who could at least have translated from Swedish to English. Sure, Nordic people in general are pretty good at English compared to people in most countries, but that doesn't mean that most of us know how to express complex thoughts on a serious matter such as this in a good way, especially not orally. Our passive knowledge of the language is usually miles better than our active one.
I thought it was fairly obvious that the staff agreed with their system. The female guard around 13 mins in seemed to liken the US system to child rearing...
misterpebbles I agree with the staff, at least to some degree, it's pretty much 'you've been naughty so you're not allowed to play with your favourite toy for a while' (child and standard punishment) vs 'you've been naughty so you're not allowed your morning walks for a while' (the inmate with the hood and the consequence that Mr Conway thought would be appropriate).
Not to mention that he's a former superintendent of an American high security and maximum security prison, no wonder he thought they were too lax at a minimum security facility (the one where the 'hood incident' took place), a kind of prison he didn't have much experience with... I mean, the whole point of that facility is to make people ready for the outside life, and that includes being listened to as an adult human being, having your feelings taken into account and deal with that fact.
But like I said in my previous comment, if the staff had been allowed to speak their native tongues, they would probably have been able to explain their point of view a lot more in depth than they did.
A good idea would be showing the impact those "Jails" have on the prisoners after they have been released. I bet the after-effect of Nordic prisons gives them a much more positive influence on their life afterwards. The statistics must probably show that the prisoners in America have a much higher chance of going back to prison than in the Nordics.
+Trina Ana The recidivism is indeed much higher in the US than in the nordic countries....
+Trina Ana Confirmed by sheer overwhelming numbers.
+Trina Ana The recidivism rate in the us is 52%, in norway its 16-20%. www.salve.edu/sites/default/files/filesfield/documents/Incarceration_and_Recidivism.pdf
The people in these prisons watched Shawshank, saw what Andy was doing for the inmates and said, "Those are great ideas." Absolutely BASED
great documentary. Thank you.
Another aspect of the American prison system is the economical side. The more inmates a prison has, the more money it gets right? And that makes you wonder about the intentions behind the entire system. If you incarcerate people in order to get more money, you seriously need to re-evaluate your entire ideology.
I would say that the difference here is Christianity. Europeans do not understand how religious Americans are. Even Americans do not understand how religious they are, compared to other nations. Religion is as, if not more, important to Americans as it is to Iraqis. I am comparing religiosity or piousness, not religion.
Christianity is about reward and punishment, not correction. Antipathy and revenge are central to Christianity, e.g. the last judgment. As Aquinas put it, the saints shall rejoice in the suffering of the wicked. There is no justice without punishment. To Americans in general, it would be an insult to the victim's family if the perpetrator is not punished.
The Scandinavian nations are secular societies. Subsequently, they take a rational approach to the problem. Rational simply means that they ask, what is the end goal of this and creates a system that best supports the end goal. It does not mean that the system is the best, or even good. It just means they did the best they could with the available information and tools they had at the time. Rational means to correct when new information or tools become available.
There are Christians in Scandinavia, of course, and those who want the American model.
Iraq was actually quite a secular country, at least by the Middle Eastern standards. Probably isn't anymore, thanks to USA. And we do know that Americans are very religious, it has been made clear to us. Also the Nordic countries have been very Christian but we still weren't as crazy about some things as Americans.
MsTytti Iraq is still more secular than the USA. So is India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Ethiopia and Zambia. All those, except India, are Muslim nations.
The Pilgrims were the European Taliban. USA has always been insanely religious. Iran is only slightly less secular than the USA. Religion informs every aspect of life in the USA.
As a Swedish Christian (we are a rare species, but we do exist), I disagree completely. I think the main message of christianity is forgivness, not judgement. That's what the entire Jesus-dying-on-the-cross-for-our-sins business is about. More importantly, however, I think religion is completely irrelevant to the correctional system. God never told us to put people in jail or to avenge crimes. We punish criminals by our own initiative in order to prevent them from re-offending.
I personally think the only valid reason to put people in jail is to lower crime rates. The word "justice" is far too often used as a synonym to "vengeance". That's why I approve of the Scandinavian model. Punishment is utterly pointless if it doesn't prevent crime.
I think it's mainly about politics rather than religion. The American model is based on the conservative mentality of American politics (compared to the socialist mentality of Scandinavia). As a lot of American conservatives are quite religious, it is easy to think that Christianity and conservatism are two corresponding ideologies. But there are a lot of Christians who'd prefer the Scandinavian model, just as there are many conservative Christians who think criminals deserve harsh treatment.
Gobbesnobbe Christianity has changed a lot over the years. One Roman emperor got so tired of Christians wanting to die a martyr's death, he told them, if you want to die so much, go out in the forest and hang yourselves in a tree.
Not Crazy That's an amusing quote, but I'm afraid I don't quite get your point. What does Christian martyrdom have to do with the correctional system?
Should've shown him our island prison (Bastøy prison, Norway) where some of the worst criminals are. No fences, living in their own normal houses, having access to stuff like chainsaws. He'd be blown away.
you know, that the worst criminals are not placed on Bastøy right away? it's a de-scaling process they have to go through before they become your and my neighbor. No one from the max security prison is released immediately with a violent history. they must go through this model so that they can manage themselves, without anyone accompanying them. for there are no prison guards following them at home. and it can be a big shock to someone, who may fall back into old habits. that's why Bastøy is there. so that they can have more freedom, show that they can handle it, then maybe they can go home. if not, they can move from Bastøy to "halfway home" where you live. but must check in. tell where you are going, how long you are going to be gone, and why, etc. You are "free" you can do almost anything you want. but you are regulated to a degree.
Very interesting and informative documentary that touches on so many points worth thinking about. What should prisons achieve? James mentions punishment, deterring other crimes, and a sense of justice for victims. I think these points are very valid in any country. And the Nordic prison system obviously puts great emphasis on rehabilitation into society. It sort of becomes clear that both systems want all of the above points, but in a much different proportions (and very different budgets). It would be interesting to see statistics that compare the crimes for which people are locked up, time imprisoned, jobs afterwards, and repeat crime rate, etc.
USA: 65% / 50% former inmates that commit crimes after their release (depending on the states)
Norway: 20% former inmates that commit crimes after their release
When in the last prison the poor man looks around him like a roman centurion in some alien spacecraft.
It's interesting to see James talking correctional system paternalistic metrics. Is he ever confronted with the actual numbers of repeat offenders of Scandinavia vs USA? Has he ever contemplated over the word "correctional"? Shouldn't the "product" be the course change of the "corrected" (inmates) during the stay? It would be interesting to hear him talk about what the external indicators would be of a successfull correctional system.
I can't fault James too much, though. He is used to cater to the mob. He is baffled, cause you don't usually hear of mobs rousing with torches, pitchforks and jacuzzis... The US is in a downward spiral. The system caters to the mob which in so doing will breed monsters that the mob in turn will pay and vote to be protect from. A sustaining industry.
We have a humane model in Scandinavia which already starts in elementary school, so James applying his primitive and paternalistic model to the Scandinavian thought process creates a disconnect that is hard to bridge.
I was thinking the same thing as well. I am surprised that the documentary creators did not take James to some expert or authority that could show James the repeat offenders rate through out Scandinavia and if the prison system has anything related those rates. As for the Norwegian prison guard, I am surprised the guard did not challenge James on the job title of "correctional officer" based solely on the word "correct" and explore what that means when dealing with inmates who will one day get reintroduced into normal society.
James Conway is an idiot! First off the reason why so many are locked up in the USA is because of a corrupt government and politicians.The people at the top are the real criminals preying on the less fortunate in the inner cities for petty drug offenses.They treat inmates like dirt and inmates will never forget it.They want revenge for a system that has taken their lives away for what smoking crack,meth or weed ?That is not a real crime but because they know they can count on the the offender to repeat these type actions because they are addicts they can take advantage of them.
James Conway used to get his power rush fix for being in control of that prison. Which in my opinion just says what a sick person he is.
I would have to agree though that in certain instances or cases that living lavishly for very serious crimes may not be right.
I would not want to see child molesters getting to live a life of luxury, that is for sure!!
I believe the Norwegians are on the right path.I am a felony ex-offender and I have lost faith in our system and people in general because I see a bigger picture than the average person who has not experienced what I have by the system. Nothing is going to be 100% infalible but obviously showing kindness and humanity is far more effective than treating a person like shit.Did you ever think that the reason some commit crimes is because they already have been treated like shit and just don't care anymore because no one cares for them.
Since I have been out of prison I have had a friend who has treated me with so much love and understanding and has stayed the course through all my failures, and I have been slowly but surely climbing the ladder of being a better person for myself and for them.I literally can't help but think everyday what can I do to show my appreciation for someone who has believed in me enough to look past my faults and see the good in me.Because the truth is there are far more good things about me that should be acknowledged rather than giving so much power to the negative.Why is it that I can spend my life doing good deeds of all sorts, but the one moment Iv'e made a mistake, society is too quick to judge and possibly destroy my life!
Michael Conley Measure a society by how it treats those of lowest stature, indeed.
In your case, if the US had invested in you a twentieth of the cost of having you incarcerated, but at a much earlier stage in your life and in the form of extra resources in the school and home situation. Do you think things would be different?
Two different systems in two different countries.
You don't challenge someone who is a guest just there to observe.
The message is so clear . Mr Conway's Nordic colleges calmly state "Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong, but your way of thinking is from days long gone."
All we need to do is look at the statistics. This is document making at it's best. Congratulations.
It was so interesting to see him five years ago after having seen him now. He really did seem to change his mind, as he said he would.
The Nordic countries have less crime than Canada. Canada! And re-incarceration si just 20% compared to 40%-60% in the US. Seems like these people knows what they are doing compared to us.
Does the recidivism level out considering the populations of prisons, hundreds in the Nordic system and thousands in the US which is probably close to or over 100's of thousands?
Connie Robinson - Statistics shows no consideration for size of groups, merely the percentage of 'offenders' or recidivism in said groups.
***** I believe its over 2 million in the correctional system.
This guy was honest and that was cool . the issue is only part prison, its our society as a whole that is failing. where theirs is not.
Great series!
The warden seems to get pleasure from punishing his inmates in the most personal way possible
Show him the German supermax in Oldenburg where the inmates, no matter if car thief or hitman, can cook together, chill in the yard, decorate their cell however they want. Incidents are rare. The camera system is awesome, you can zoom in and talk to every inmate at all times no matter where he is. They are very clean too, inmates will even ask you to take your shoes off before entering their cell. James would loose his mind there.