There has to be unavoidable damage. I think people really underestimate how much damage IS infact avoidable. Stop standing in fire, use kicks, do mechanics properly and so on. The unavoidable damage plummets when people actually use defensives they were given.
@@wowcnmovie No, it's because healers kept saying "we want to heal, we don't want to dps", so now they put more unavoidable damage so healers have something to heal instead of filling the gaps of nothing to heal with dps. Unfortunately, players weren't realizing that what they actually wanted wasn't more things to heal, they actually wanted was actually less healing checks and less dps checks (just more downtime to not need to do anything), essentially just make the game easier. I'd argue though, there's classic for that.
@ Not entirely sure. Seen tons of deaths to unavoidable dmg with dps using defensives on even 12s to 14s. Being double targeted from a similar enemy mob, hitting the same person, with 1 player missing their kick. It happens. Then an AOE cast goes and the healer can't top the dps off in time.
This doesn't mean it's good for healers to have insane burst, it means the encounters need to be toned down. Class design and encounter design are heavily intertwined.
Seriously thinking about dropping the game. This is not the first time they've made healers irrelevant. They are literally making healing the least rewarding role in the game. If they spent more time designing encounters and less time designing new game modes, mini games, and vehicle mechanics. I don't play Mario Kart, or Minecraft, or Roblox or any of the battle royal games they keep trying to shoe horn into WoW. So I guarantee I will not be looking to play them in WoW. The game has a serious identity crisis.
You're taking this too far. You're forgetting this is the MOST OPTIMAL team that's ever been created, and they finally managed it after all this time...are you affected by this? ABSOLUTELY NOT, go back to playing as usual, this is just a fun concept of endgame people have achieved, that's the only point of the vid
I love your videos but I would argue that there probably isn't a pug under a 12 that could EVER run without a healer. It appears once again we are talking about the top 1-2% of the M+ player base. Defensives are absolutely crucial for let's say 90% of the player base.
This is moreso meant to be an example of how coordinated teams at high levels running without a healer is an important milestone/marker that healing is broken across the board. Lower level content experiences this with the insanely heavy burst damage and I talk abt more examples in this vid
I agree that adding a tuning knob between raid and dungeon healing would make it easier for Blizzard to make sure both feel good to play. It wouldn't solve the m+ scaling though. That's what needs to be adjusted. Either fully cap or at least decouple and progressively lower the dmg scaling in m+ would probably solve the majority of these gameplay issues. You don't need to kick everything or perfect time a defensive, if it doesn't one-shot you and healer can push the hpbar back. You don't need all dispell types, if the dots don't scale out of hand. There should be enough unavoidable dmg for healers to be necessary but not scale so high, that only thing that keeps the group alive is defensives and perfect cc. I think that most would agree that it is more fun to race against the timer, because the mob hp scale, than race against my own hp bar, because everything oneshots. Sadly I seldom hear any feedback to Blizzard that points in this direction.
I think the other benefit, potentially anyway, of massively pruning defensives could be more healers playing, especially in PuGs. I've switched back to healer recently, pushing for KSH and mostly pugging, and the number of times you see dps dying, with all their defensives off CD, while all of the healers CDs are spent and then getting toxic and blaming the healer. If dungeons are tuned around dps not having those CDs (or at least having fewer - take it back down to 1 major CD per non-tank or something), then healers will end up being the ones actually in charge of keeping people alive, rather than just being a tool to top people up while they correctly (or incorrectly) use their defensives... xD I don't mind taking the blame if I've fucked up, that's on me, and I can learn from that, but one thing you regularly see is people giving up on healing because they're sick of the toxicity of being blamed for everything xD
Boom Jak coming in with the real talk! I feel we are sadly stuck with current issues until the next expansion given how much of the current end game is designed around the bloat. Also I totally agree that defensive bloat remains a significant issue. I am curious on your thoughts on the amount of passive healing in none healer classes/specs and its role in contributing to the none healer runs as well. I suspect if we look across time we might see that classes/specs that have these abilities also have maintained more sustained representation in META comps compared to those that have less self sustainment. My belief is that to actually truly fix some of the healing issues Blizzard must address both. Then developers can get back to matching dungeons designed to balanced roles and functioning "within their lane." Lastly I was hopeful we would not see a repeat of the ring from DF yet here we are. I knew without a doubt these runs would increase especially tailing into the end of the season when the average persons level surpasses what is necessary to complete the challenge level. Gimmicky stuff like this does have its place I suppose although this does seem to be creeping into higher levels than I personally believe should be supportable with a gimmick item. Not to surprising since they had to essentially over tune the item at release because it performed so far below lower level gear. Next they will nerf it as we push into S2 so that people are eventually forced to swap to the new gear.
I would say its less about self-healing by those meta specs and more about raw damage reduction, so much of high keys is just having the right DRs on the right people. You can of course have one or two less-tanky specs in as you can give them more prio healing, but throughout every season theres usually 2 dps at least that are extremely tanky. Rogues, used to be mages they're decent now, fdk is super tanky atm, ret pally usually is as well etc.
@@AutomaticJak thanks. That make since. As a long time tank main and someone who only tables around with healing at a "lowish" level I really appreciate your perspective as along time healer main!
Easiest fix is to make self-healing and defensives scale so they are worse when you are in a group or raid. Healers should always be needed and they should easily outheal everyone else. When DPS and Tanks have too strong self-heals and defensives, healers lose their jobs and their sense of purpose. Make healers great again!
hell no, they need to cut down on self heals and defensives across the board. not just in pve. pvp has an unbelievable amount of self heals and defensives atm
@ so just make the same scaling in arenas and BG’s, so easy. World PvP and duels can stay the same I’m trying to find the easiest possible fix so devs don’t have to recreate the game from the ground up. If it’s too complex nothings gonna happen and we’ll be stuck in this situation.
I don’t think it’s problematic if the best players in the world can do a few bosses without healers, or even mythic plus. Because if you tune an encounter to where the best players in the world require healers often times that means anyone who isn’t one of the best players in the world is going to be absolutely miserable. You can see this in healer participation in mythic plus this season.
I completely agree! It shouldn't be a "skill issue" to be less than world-class. In fact, dare I say: It should be okay for those who ARE world-class to feel unchallenged, at least in everyday cases. That's their reward.
This too Jak : (from WCL retail announcements) Stacking the Roaring War Queen gem in your raid may put you at risk for invalidation. We do not yet have specific numbers to provide, but we advise against abusing this chain-proc function.
Great points I agree with the mental load needing to be drastically reduced instead of every pull. The interrupt/casting thing needs to be fixed and reducing casters would help both of these
I was really hoping to see the defensive scale back in 11.1 at the latest. Still hoping to see it before the end of the xpac but I can't see a better day to day reality for healers until that is addressed first. Then we can retune all damage intake to reasonable levels again.
Actually this is a re occurring issue since bfa. if you remember, near the end of the expa and with all the help of nzoth (PRAISE NZOTH), most dungeon runs consisted of a MW to just kite the elites spawned from the afix (cant remember the name), while the rest of the group finished the dungeon.
To be honest, the real comparative is if it's BETTER. Using gems and no healer is mathematically less dps and healing than just having a healer and dps gems, at least in raid. We are no healing Bloodbound and it's dying in 01.40 and that's with dps gems. The raid percentage buff and the lack of damage on that fight means it's possible. The first 4 are just insanely undertuned, even for first week.
Since MoP came out and Fistweaving took the stage, so many moons ago, this pressure has been building. I heal to heal. Not to do various levels of DPS because Blizzard isn't capable of designing their own content well to save their lives.
I agree. I currently do not heal M+. I struggle with the old way of healing vs. the expected chaos we have now: Kick, DPS, mechanics, oh...and HEAL. I dont mind doing some DPS if the squad is topped off or doing certain boss mechanics; sure I can interrupt time to time, but being relied upon for kicks, healing, and other stuff at the same exact time is too much. That is just me, I can't speak for other folks.
It's needed where it is at now. I get what you mean but its 2025, if we were living in 2006 still. You wouldnt have had retail, nor classic. Not as active. The boredom would be insane. They have done it well but things can obviously be better. I guess thats why classic exist, and people cant even catch a kick in dungeons in cata. Thats what makes m+ fun, the challenge. And you dont even need to do insanely high keys to access hero/mythic track gear.
I dont think the intent of this is to come across as a complete fundamental misunderstanding of the current game, but it does unfortunately. The M+ state of the game as it is in War Within S1, I'd argue, has one of the least tight DPS checks ever compared to previous seasons. Keys pass or fail based on whether your team survives pulls (and if not, you lose massive chunks of time off the timer). Essentially, the current meta is the most "healers, please heal and only heal; everybody please stay alive and the key is time-able" compared to previous seasons. As part of the "healers only want to heal" ask though, Blizzard added a lot more unavoidable damage so that healers have something to heal. This, as a result, has made healing much harder (and whether that's a good or bad thing is up to debate). But if the complaint is that healers only want to heal and not dps; Blizzard has tuned the check in keys not to be dps but rather survivability. And if the community doesn't like the change for extra unavoidable damage so that healers have something to heal (instead of having downtime that would then be filled with dps), then I'd argue that the community has actually asked for the wrong thing. The community sounds like it's asking for less healing checks and less dps checks (which is just downtime for healers to do nothing, or in other words just an easier game). My personal opinion on this is that Classic is available there for more downtime related gameplay but there are plenty of us that don't find that type of gameplay satisfying and would rather have things to do every global (rather that's to heal or to dps).
RDruid is fun to play, but being forced to cat weave to interrupt and do some more damage just feels crazy. I miss healing for its healing - HICC, where your throughput and healing efficiency actually mattered. I can't remember the last time that I even went oom. It just doesn't happen anymore.
Anyone else find that the video starts out good in the start but then about halfway through it goes off on a tangent about group co-ordination and etc.. lol Sure the title is relevant for the 1st 4- or so mins of the video.
On Monday I did some floodgate runs on the PTR. Some things felt quite overtuned, but overall the dungeon looks fun. A thing I am very worried about though is the amount of necessary mobility and healing at the same time. I felt really lacking behind with healing. A solution could be that fade also gives you the ability to cast while moving for 3-5 seconds.. although not perfect it will help with these issues for holy priest in mobility intensive fights. Furthermore I really don’t understand the stats on the tier set for priests.. we need haste versa and crit for m+. The upcoming expand we seem to get almost none.. I think there should be a m+ set next to the existing raid set..
Ah yes a company that always missed game breaking bugs with a FULL QA team continues to let game breaking bugs through with a skeleton QA team. Checks notes. Yep
Healing needs to be made way way way easier is also more fun. There are not enough healers and guilds are LITERALLY disbanding and dying because of the difficulty of finding healers, nevermind mythic (raid) capable ones.
They should do a ptr round where you give players a massive like 3 or 3 or 4 or 5 times increase to play HP the. Let healers test it out with increasing damage taken or healing done to change time to heal.
The fix wouldn't work for Hpal, it doesn't do raid-wide healing - it would literally cause the problem, being either too strong in M+ or dogshit in raid. It can't be a blanket solution because the healers don't all work the same. Tbh personally I'm fine with a specific heal spec only being good in one or the other but what frustrates me is them nerfing specs that are already bottom-tier in 5-man like Rdruid and Hpal alongside ones that are actually overperforming like Disc and Rsham. Do they just deliberately create a revolving door of meta specs or what? Everyone is already rolling monk and the patch isn't even out.
Blizz would have to totally re-design so many things if they removed defensives from DPS specs. My Arcane Mage for example. I have alter time, greater invis, iceblock, prismatic barrier, and mass barrier (can't think of any other defensives at the moment -- think that's my whole kit). I'd be fine losing some of those buttons, but then my sustain in Delves content would plummet, and my Mage, who is already laughably bad in Delves compared to my DK, would be even worse. This is such a massive problem. I fear we are stuck with all this defensive bloat for at least the rest of this expansion. A real missed opportunity for Blizzard.
They are adding a tank class to Brann, shouldn't that alleviate some of the pain of doing delves solo and needing less active mitigation spells? (based on what you said it seems you run solo)
Isn’t infinitely scaling content the point? Like, there’s no upper limit and that’s how it’s designed on purpose. People talk about M+ as if they expect to be able to do a certain level key but it’s supposed to get impossible. Precise use of globals and defensives are people barely squeezing out the last bit of efficiency to go further than is otherwise possible. It’s a tactic developed in response to otherwise impossibly difficult content. And if you succeed, the next tier is ever more punishing and difficult. It puts the player base on percentile curve. Only the top end can do the hardest content.
We do 12s without healers just using the rings. However, some are impossible without dispells (unless you have a priest MD or warlock). The healing gems can do 10-20% increase to a healers overall The dps gems can 4-9% increase to dps overall The healing gems are clearly stronger
Is it that hard for Blizz to love healers too lol??? I struggle to get into 10+ as a HP and nowwwwww some moron is going to tell me to go dps bc we don't need no stinking healer!! LOLOL (joking of course, I hope). I will say I have felt better as aHP in dungeons since the last patch where I feel like I can actually dps some without worrying about the party like a crazy person haha. Really appreciate your content Jak, I have become a better priesty/player because of your content, so thank you!
I think being able to run without a healer is awesome, just goes to show that the only thing that healers usually bring is just healing. Make healers have far far more utility, control and group enhancements and that way people will bring a healer because they are actually worth it, not just to keep health bar above 1HP
We're not going to see defensives toned down until a new expansion. That's just a bigger piece of game-wide class design work than Blizz have ever been willing to do mid-expansion. The question is will we see it happen in Midnight or not.
I also think mistakes are punished too heavily especially on a healer. I've been running some 8-10 the last couple of weeks. The difference between people knowing what to do and people not knowing what to do is huge, too huge in my opinion. If people know what they are doing healing is a breeze. When people don't know what they are doing it is very stressful and sometimes impossible.
Blizzard just needs to take out those healing gems. Nobody uses them in keys regardless (or even in raids unless it's for this), because they made the secondary stats gem more powerful. Have played pretty much every healing spec and none of them use any of those gems. They're completely useless. Also, they need to stop nerfing defensives and dps aoe healing abilities if they're not going to buff healer aoe capabilities.
seeing that 4 mythic bosses were cleared in raid without a healer brings the question as to why in the world are dps dying in the first place? watching MDI runs without healers should be the BIGGEST slap in the face to EVERY dps player in the game. This just proves how TERRIBLE so many dps players really are. dps players have so much brain damage because they don't understand how to press defensive buttons cause it's a dps loss. but being dead is the ultimate dps loss, but again most of the dps players can't figure that out, which makes m+ so much more stressful on healers than it needs to be.
Blizz simply has to gut self healing at this point. Make it where healers focus on healing, no need at all for them to DPS or do other stupid stuff. Any DPS they do is gravy and removing debuffs and such needs to be available to all classes so healers aren't burdened with that as well.
There’s no putting the dps pandora back in the box. Disc and MW do the bulk of their healing via dps, so if every other healer does the same healing as them and no dps why would you take a non dps healer? You also can’t make them weaker since then they wont be able to make healing checks others would.
@@cow1202 You rework them so they don't focus on damage? Disc can be focused around absorption and MW can be a mixture of Disc+resto druid. Healer's shouldn't have to dps right now, damage is absolutely insane, the worst it's been in any m+ season, healers are stressed enough to meet healing checks let alone dpsing. Rework the two that require dps to heal, and it will fix the others.
@cow1202 Unique isn't always good, especially if their uniqueness is outshining every other class to the point it's creating a toxic environment. I can't even get into a 13 because i'm not a disc priest, rsham, mw despite having healed 13s, despite being 3050 io. If them being unique is causing more harm than good, then remove the uniqueness. I'd rather have a meta where every class can shine. 99% of high keys have a disc priest.
Sigh. Again we’re overthinking it. PvP solved this problem ages ago. With a system called dampening. For m+, at keys 12 and above make mob health and dampening effects increase each lvl. Leave mob dmg done alone. For raid. Make dampening scale per difficulty AND ramp DOWN the longer a boss is alive. Tune the first 2mins of any boss to NEED a healer to keep the tanks alive.
I mean it's the end of the season it's not a huge issue. This is similar to what they did with the DF ring, it's not a big deal, the majority of groups will still bring a healer. I think Jak forgets that he is in the minority with running set groups and in the 12+ key range. There's nothing wrong with that, but pugs arent going to chance this as it takes way too much coordination.
I really dislike the idea of a general tuning knob for 5man and raid groups. I think the way they did that for some abilities such has healing tide totem or tranquility previously is fine, but I'd hate to see it happen generally. It also feels a bit backwards to me, because they might as well design raids/dungeons so that separate tuning like that wouldn't be necessary. It should work out when you think about it, since you almost always have roughly 1 healer per 5 people, regardless of dungeon or raid.
Unavoidable one-shots in high keys are an expected side-effect of climbing into higher keys...... Once you have obtained all the rewards possible at +10, all tuning bets are off and you can't reasonably expect Blizzard to fine tune everything to some arbitrary 'theoretical highest key possible'.
The best part about people complaining about this, is that it is the same people who anxiously fought with Blizzard to have healers do significant dmg in instanced content. So basically, not only healers aren’t healers anymore (and not even close enough DPS to focus purely on that), but DPS have so many ridiculously OP defensives and healing… Basically at this point just remove the healing role and make it so everyone can just survive con their own.
No, we have to go back to the sources: the tank does its part, the dps hits and the healer heals. I am a discipline priest and starting in 2025 there are people in mythics who do not know that I have to hit to heal... They protest and suggest to me "hit less and heal more!!!!"
@ That’s not specific to Disc, I’ve had that same phrase with legit my 7 healers (all specs) and then, when DPS is missing I’ve had the famous “Good healers can heal/Dps/interrumpt/cc and LoS”. And this have happened on 12s and 13s which is my highest.
Lets be real, when you outgear literally most content ofc healing becomes a spot where you can reduce the amount of healers etc. Ive been solo healing in HC boosts since i got 635 ilvl, and we boost 13-15 people at the time ( not queen pre-giganerf) We are 1-2 man healing 4/8M without problems either...Or like 1.5 heal it etc.. Its all about the group really and how good the dodge shit, its not like we can do this at the start when progressing. All in all, if we dont want stuff like this then just nerf the gems for non healer speccs, easy peasy.. However i like it as is, not many do this and not many groups will make it with this. Reference my last 4/8M pug with only 6/8M experienced people in group, 4 heal all the way and we were all pumping cause people failed miserably.
I knew this could happen. When the 3 gems first went out i tried using it on raids ans dungeons and these gems do 6-8% each of what a healer does. About time they discover it. What is 6k secondary stars vs healinf 20% of a healer
I think healing is in a bad place at the moment. Healing is too much about planning your cds exactly at the right time or you are unable to heal through certain burst windows. Damage intake isn’t smooth at all. So Blizzard is clearly not making their goal. I would like it much more if I had to heal continuously, couldn’t dps, but the damage intake would be way smoother.
Well, there is a stat Versatility that almost everybody avoids... Passive defensiveness should be a choice, good choice... tanks should need defensive stats to be tanky, not chasing just damage... there should be more stats to adjust to the difficulties of different challenges... as in the past, if this dungeon is too difficult you got spell resist gear, flasks, etc. to help you through... the game is so close-minded and spins in a circle called M+... Bring back/recreate the synergies we saw in the game before... profs, classes, specs, world... :/ Still can be faster pace game (if that's what people enjoy) but needs more broad approach to the game as a whole...
Potential solution MAGA. Make Aggro Great Again. DPS need to be forced to use defensive sometimes. Pulling aggro is a good way to do this. The game is so silly when I know exactly to the second which defensive I’m going to use and when before I even zone into the dungeon. Also makes tanking more interesting. Forces more coordination on AoE pulls. There are tons and tons of downstream effects of requiring tanks to actually threat and forcing dps to abide. If you read this and think. That sounds so dumb. I challenge you to use your brain and actually think it through.
I also wish they'd take away a bunch of defensives & self-heals. Otherwise the game needs a radical redesign in the image of GW2 where healer specs are removed entirely. Healing has always been my favorite role in WoW, but what are we doing here?
Umm no its just a gimmick that won't be around that long. Its like saying is made the only dps that matters because a raid full of fire mages were nuking bosses in nyalotha when we had corruptions.
They say they want less addon's in there game yet unless your do everything prefect you fail. The amount of stuff to track dodge avoid while healing is crazy high especially if you are the only range in the mythic you can barley cast anyways
knowing blizzard they would be able to actually reduce the defensive and utility for all classes, but not the damage output of the mobs. what i didn't like at all is the transition from almost totally single target damage in shadowlands (expansion where i started playing healer) to a damage profile totally oriented to AOE from dragonflight onwards. not to mention the general increase in player hp that happened in dragonflight S2 etc. There is already a content based on AOE healing the whole party, and that's the raid. you have 3 other healers that give you a hand and that's fine. but in M+ you're alone, and in my opinion the damage should be purely single target, and with it also the healing that is needed. For me this system is deeply wrong. now playing healer is becoming patch after patch more and more stressful and demanding. it's a shame because i loved this role, i never did anything special but i had fun in company. Now i'm on the verge of asking myself: "next season do i want to play healer again?". I think Blizzard in general is digging their own grave. Finding healers and tanks in pug is becoming increasingly difficult, and soon I think players of these 2 roles will be so rare that the overall experience for everyone will be very frustrating.
More pure healing bosses / trash encounters would be quite nice. Things like having to heal a mob and it takes up a large % of the encounters damage would be a nice or just more constant static damage like the 3rd boss in halls of infusion. More debuffs that aren't focused on damage would be cool as well, not everything has to directly kill us in 0.1 seconds. Have more stuff apply slows or a curse that makes casts take longer - it makes our utility and debuffs important without adding more damage to every fight.
I was disc from wrath until BFA. Switched to Druid and now…I’m not healing. By the end of SL it was no longer fun. It was tedious and stressful as well as being blamed for deaths. DF and TWW have been similar. I’ll stick to dps until they fix healing back to pre legion.
WoW in 2025: -Not all DPS are good at dealing damage -Not all healers are good at healing damage -Not all tanks are good at tanking damage You play the patch, not the game. Just pray your favorite class is apart of the meta each patch. Edit: Yes most specs are "capable" by the numbers, capable doesn't mean "good".
You said that it has been a issue for a long time, but I really ask myself: is it really an issue that players find new ways to bend the rules and play the game whatever way they wants? it's not like it's a widespread thing that should be removed or "fixed", in fact every time Blizzard tries to fix or tackle something like this it always ends up badly, that's why the game is so unfun nowadays
Healing is severely under tuned and incoming damage is too high. I really hate healing in TWW. The ring is absolutely necessary and DPS and tanks need to be popping defensive (but they don't). Mistweaver feels fine because you're pumping out healing by just doing damage. Disc is similar but you have to prep heal before DMG healing.
Remove healing from dps kits, give tanks less self healing and absorption but more dr cooldowns. And rework healers that need to do dps to heal to just be healers. This fixes the issue, this fixes m+, this will be healthy for pvp and pve. LESS IS MORE.
Just make damage more constant and less powerful. There are dgs that u end with 1.3m healing, others u heal ur ass off and end with 700k overall. Its a fkng big difference betwen the damage profile of the packs.
Initial headline is not really broken game balance We are *well* overgeared at this point of the season on top of having an absurd severed threads bonus (literally a bonus 3 players in the raid worth of throughput). Gear to complete mythic raid is well before 639, of course the system is gonna bend when we are in month 5 of the content when we’ve achieved every scrap of catchup. We should be enjoying the toys we’ve worked really hard to earn, not bashing the creators of the game I bet you there are solo healers in first 4 mythic right now and that’s not making headlines, my bud’s guild can duo heal all of 30man heroic Maybe the circlet should be retuned but is the dps using healing option a niche that should be deleted? I would rather see the dps gems unrestricted for the other roles. I can almost guarantee folks are not gonna be able to bring no healers into a fresh prog next season where no one knows the mechs
Great, now the ring will be nerfed into the ground for healers and we'll be forced to stat stick. yippie! hopefully they just modify scaling for dps/tanks and leave healing scaling alone for gems.
Well 1 the ring is an end of season gimmick, 2 even though this makes it POSSIBLE to do raid/dungeons without a healer, realistically most groups will still need one outside of the really low level stuff. The ring itself is less the problem, it’s moreso the state of healing as a whole
Cool cool, however most people shouldn't worry about this. I just finish my KSM and sometimes dabble into a bit of HC raiding. Players on my level couldn't make two steps without a healer. In fact, it's impressive how capable of stepping into every single bit of avoidable damage people on my level are.
To be fair, as a healer, why I want to use dps trinkets? Those are for the dps, not for me, the healer. I was surprised when the only trinket that could have been considered 100% for a tank was not part of TWW S1 loot and instead was part of the loot obtained for doing BRM during the anniversary event. Everything revolves around dpsing to the point I consider only 3 classes are left as pure healing classes while all others are hybrids on a 75-60% dps/25-40% healer logic. As a main healer I left this expansion, just like many others I knew and left since BfA because of the same issue.
And no wonder people are former players. Not everyone wants to or can play a social game such as an mmo with this much pressure. The groupis getting smaller and smaller as intense as the game has become. Dark souls is a solo game, group games with thsi much difficulty no ownder many people appear to act toxic.
Is the programming so complicated that Blizz couldn't just make the talent tree a mandatory either or? If you want to raid then these talents will only work while in a raid group and vice versa only in a 5 man? This is only for healing in M+ and conversely you can only run these set of talents in a raid.
@johnnyll91 you could still manipulate specific talents but like Jack was saying how do you balance m+ healing and raid healing? Even worse is when they make a spec awesome in raid and unable to get invites in m+
Case in point, BM Hunter raid DPS in the beginning of the season was top three if I remember correctly, try getting invited to a 10 or higher in M+ without waiting 45mins
Its become Elder Scrolls Online. Everyone is so self sufficient in that game that you only need a healer for the most high end content. Its a big reason I left that game.
I don’t understand what is the problem with healers being able to push the health bars fast? Isn’t that what makes the role fun after all? Isn’t that what means to give power to healers? Since when being weak and powerless as a healer is more fun than being strong?
If healers push health bars too fast then blizz balances around it and makes damage insanely bursty and requiring defensives. There’s a sweet spot for sure but we’re at an extreme point rn
@ I don’t mind having bursty damage as long as my toolkit as a healer allows me to push their health back up fast and be full for the next burst which may happen in few seconds. That is fun for me at least. Or I also don’t mind being able to overheal some mechanics in a raid if dps fuck up something (a soack or an add not dying in time, etc). That is also fun and makes u noticeable as a healer. What I don’t like, and I encounter that more often lately, is that I use my toolkit as a healer and I barely moved their health bars (u can argue that I am a bad one I don’t mind just 2,7k here) and they won’t be full for the next burst. Plus in an infinite scalable system as it is mythic+ any type of dmg will eventually become at some point bursty and/or one shot. So there is no point in not giving the power to healers to push the health bars fast. That is what I consider being fun at the role as a healer. Being weak as a healer just makes the role feel bad and pushes ppl away from it. The problem in my opinion is that the game right now is designed for sweats, that top1%. And had become more like a job where you have to do specific stuff (do not overlap interrupts, use the right defensive in the right moment, etc) in order to succeed than a game where you suppose to have fun. If u want to be a sweater you can still be a sweater even if the game is fun and healers have power and the role is attractive to ppl. Why to make it unfunny? Or what is fun for you as a healer?
Idk why healing can't just be easy. Nobody likes it when healing is hard. Not tanks or dps or especially healers. Make them OP and make it be damage that is limiting factor in content, not healing.
People are just frustrated that blizzard continues to screw up season after season and not listen to its players. We’re finally starting to see a lot more repercussions because of it as well.
TLDR is that blizz makes a bad overall environment for healers so when these little things come up they make stupid no healer runs very possible. If overall healing was better than I don’t think these things would be as srs
Man, the amount of unavoidable damage in this game now is mind boggling.
Because of the stupid RUclipsr who wants to challenge no healer dungeons , blz put more unavoidable damages that regular players have to deal with
There has to be unavoidable damage. I think people really underestimate how much damage IS infact avoidable. Stop standing in fire, use kicks, do mechanics properly and so on. The unavoidable damage plummets when people actually use defensives they were given.
@@wowcnmovie No, it's because healers kept saying "we want to heal, we don't want to dps", so now they put more unavoidable damage so healers have something to heal instead of filling the gaps of nothing to heal with dps. Unfortunately, players weren't realizing that what they actually wanted wasn't more things to heal, they actually wanted was actually less healing checks and less dps checks (just more downtime to not need to do anything), essentially just make the game easier. I'd argue though, there's classic for that.
Unavoidable dmg is much easier to balance compared to avoidable.
i wish dungeon difficulty rewarded skillful use of your core toolset more than interrupts and defensives.
But there are M+ runs where some healers lack the burst to make the run go smoothly, and tanks can get 1 shot on trash pulls.
Most of it its cause ppl sucks and dont know whats happening
@ Not entirely sure. Seen tons of deaths to unavoidable dmg with dps using defensives on even 12s to 14s. Being double targeted from a similar enemy mob, hitting the same person, with 1 player missing their kick. It happens. Then an AOE cast goes and the healer can't top the dps off in time.
you can have zero deaths up to nearly workd class key levels with correct play. this is a skill issue
This doesn't mean it's good for healers to have insane burst, it means the encounters need to be toned down. Class design and encounter design are heavily intertwined.
Seriously thinking about dropping the game. This is not the first time they've made healers irrelevant. They are literally making healing the least rewarding role in the game. If they spent more time designing encounters and less time designing new game modes, mini games, and vehicle mechanics. I don't play Mario Kart, or Minecraft, or Roblox or any of the battle royal games they keep trying to shoe horn into WoW. So I guarantee I will not be looking to play them in WoW. The game has a serious identity crisis.
I did and I’ve never been happier
You're taking this too far. You're forgetting this is the MOST OPTIMAL team that's ever been created, and they finally managed it after all this time...are you affected by this? ABSOLUTELY NOT, go back to playing as usual, this is just a fun concept of endgame people have achieved, that's the only point of the vid
I love your videos but I would argue that there probably isn't a pug under a 12 that could EVER run without a healer. It appears once again we are talking about the top 1-2% of the M+ player base. Defensives are absolutely crucial for let's say 90% of the player base.
This is moreso meant to be an example of how coordinated teams at high levels running without a healer is an important milestone/marker that healing is broken across the board. Lower level content experiences this with the insanely heavy burst damage and I talk abt more examples in this vid
I agree that adding a tuning knob between raid and dungeon healing would make it easier for Blizzard to make sure both feel good to play. It wouldn't solve the m+ scaling though. That's what needs to be adjusted. Either fully cap or at least decouple and progressively lower the dmg scaling in m+ would probably solve the majority of these gameplay issues. You don't need to kick everything or perfect time a defensive, if it doesn't one-shot you and healer can push the hpbar back. You don't need all dispell types, if the dots don't scale out of hand. There should be enough unavoidable dmg for healers to be necessary but not scale so high, that only thing that keeps the group alive is defensives and perfect cc. I think that most would agree that it is more fun to race against the timer, because the mob hp scale, than race against my own hp bar, because everything oneshots. Sadly I seldom hear any feedback to Blizzard that points in this direction.
I think the other benefit, potentially anyway, of massively pruning defensives could be more healers playing, especially in PuGs. I've switched back to healer recently, pushing for KSH and mostly pugging, and the number of times you see dps dying, with all their defensives off CD, while all of the healers CDs are spent and then getting toxic and blaming the healer. If dungeons are tuned around dps not having those CDs (or at least having fewer - take it back down to 1 major CD per non-tank or something), then healers will end up being the ones actually in charge of keeping people alive, rather than just being a tool to top people up while they correctly (or incorrectly) use their defensives... xD
I don't mind taking the blame if I've fucked up, that's on me, and I can learn from that, but one thing you regularly see is people giving up on healing because they're sick of the toxicity of being blamed for everything xD
Boom Jak coming in with the real talk!
I feel we are sadly stuck with current issues until the next expansion given how much of the current end game is designed around the bloat.
Also I totally agree that defensive bloat remains a significant issue. I am curious on your thoughts on the amount of passive healing in none healer classes/specs and its role in contributing to the none healer runs as well. I suspect if we look across time we might see that classes/specs that have these abilities also have maintained more sustained representation in META comps compared to those that have less self sustainment.
My belief is that to actually truly fix some of the healing issues Blizzard must address both. Then developers can get back to matching dungeons designed to balanced roles and functioning "within their lane."
Lastly I was hopeful we would not see a repeat of the ring from DF yet here we are. I knew without a doubt these runs would increase especially tailing into the end of the season when the average persons level surpasses what is necessary to complete the challenge level. Gimmicky stuff like this does have its place I suppose although this does seem to be creeping into higher levels than I personally believe should be supportable with a gimmick item. Not to surprising since they had to essentially over tune the item at release because it performed so far below lower level gear. Next they will nerf it as we push into S2 so that people are eventually forced to swap to the new gear.
I would say its less about self-healing by those meta specs and more about raw damage reduction, so much of high keys is just having the right DRs on the right people. You can of course have one or two less-tanky specs in as you can give them more prio healing, but throughout every season theres usually 2 dps at least that are extremely tanky.
Rogues, used to be mages they're decent now, fdk is super tanky atm, ret pally usually is as well etc.
@@AutomaticJak thanks. That make since. As a long time tank main and someone who only tables around with healing at a "lowish" level I really appreciate your perspective as along time healer main!
Easiest fix is to make self-healing and defensives scale so they are worse when you are in a group or raid.
Healers should always be needed and they should easily outheal everyone else.
When DPS and Tanks have too strong self-heals and defensives, healers lose their jobs and their sense of purpose.
Make healers great again!
hell no, they need to cut down on self heals and defensives across the board. not just in pve. pvp has an unbelievable amount of self heals and defensives atm
@ so just make the same scaling in arenas and BG’s, so easy.
World PvP and duels can stay the same
I’m trying to find the easiest possible fix so devs don’t have to recreate the game from the ground up.
If it’s too complex nothings gonna happen and we’ll be stuck in this situation.
@@WillFanta its the spells themselves that are the issue. blizzard has created spells that cannot be balanced in pvp.
I don’t think it’s problematic if the best players in the world can do a few bosses without healers, or even mythic plus. Because if you tune an encounter to where the best players in the world require healers often times that means anyone who isn’t one of the best players in the world is going to be absolutely miserable. You can see this in healer participation in mythic plus this season.
I completely agree! It shouldn't be a "skill issue" to be less than world-class.
In fact, dare I say: It should be okay for those who ARE world-class to feel unchallenged, at least in everyday cases. That's their reward.
This too Jak : (from WCL retail announcements) Stacking the Roaring War Queen gem in your raid may put you at risk for invalidation.
We do not yet have specific numbers to provide, but we advise against abusing this chain-proc function.
Guardian druid / Ret pally comps were doing 10-12's early this season with no healers.
"Pretty strange" That's one way to put it. I'd say it's "Fucking ridiculous!"
Ok, probably a really dumb question, but can anyone tell me the WA that shows the class cooldowns underneath their Cell bar?
Great points I agree with the mental load needing to be drastically reduced instead of every pull. The interrupt/casting thing needs to be fixed and reducing casters would help both of these
I was really hoping to see the defensive scale back in 11.1 at the latest. Still hoping to see it before the end of the xpac but I can't see a better day to day reality for healers until that is addressed first. Then we can retune all damage intake to reasonable levels again.
Actually this is a re occurring issue since bfa. if you remember, near the end of the expa and with all the help of nzoth (PRAISE NZOTH), most dungeon runs consisted of a MW to just kite the elites spawned from the afix (cant remember the name), while the rest of the group finished the dungeon.
praise nzoth!
To be honest, the real comparative is if it's BETTER. Using gems and no healer is mathematically less dps and healing than just having a healer and dps gems, at least in raid. We are no healing Bloodbound and it's dying in 01.40 and that's with dps gems. The raid percentage buff and the lack of damage on that fight means it's possible. The first 4 are just insanely undertuned, even for first week.
Since MoP came out and Fistweaving took the stage, so many moons ago, this pressure has been building.
I heal to heal.
Not to do various levels of DPS because Blizzard isn't capable of designing their own content well to save their lives.
I agree. I currently do not heal M+. I struggle with the old way of healing vs. the expected chaos we have now: Kick, DPS, mechanics, oh...and HEAL. I dont mind doing some DPS if the squad is topped off or doing certain boss mechanics; sure I can interrupt time to time, but being relied upon for kicks, healing, and other stuff at the same exact time is too much. That is just me, I can't speak for other folks.
It's needed where it is at now. I get what you mean but its 2025, if we were living in 2006 still. You wouldnt have had retail, nor classic. Not as active. The boredom would be insane. They have done it well but things can obviously be better. I guess thats why classic exist, and people cant even catch a kick in dungeons in cata. Thats what makes m+ fun, the challenge. And you dont even need to do insanely high keys to access hero/mythic track gear.
I dont think the intent of this is to come across as a complete fundamental misunderstanding of the current game, but it does unfortunately. The M+ state of the game as it is in War Within S1, I'd argue, has one of the least tight DPS checks ever compared to previous seasons. Keys pass or fail based on whether your team survives pulls (and if not, you lose massive chunks of time off the timer).
Essentially, the current meta is the most "healers, please heal and only heal; everybody please stay alive and the key is time-able" compared to previous seasons. As part of the "healers only want to heal" ask though, Blizzard added a lot more unavoidable damage so that healers have something to heal. This, as a result, has made healing much harder (and whether that's a good or bad thing is up to debate).
But if the complaint is that healers only want to heal and not dps; Blizzard has tuned the check in keys not to be dps but rather survivability.
And if the community doesn't like the change for extra unavoidable damage so that healers have something to heal (instead of having downtime that would then be filled with dps), then I'd argue that the community has actually asked for the wrong thing. The community sounds like it's asking for less healing checks and less dps checks (which is just downtime for healers to do nothing, or in other words just an easier game).
My personal opinion on this is that Classic is available there for more downtime related gameplay but there are plenty of us that don't find that type of gameplay satisfying and would rather have things to do every global (rather that's to heal or to dps).
RDruid is fun to play, but being forced to cat weave to interrupt and do some more damage just feels crazy. I miss healing for its healing - HICC, where your throughput and healing efficiency actually mattered. I can't remember the last time that I even went oom. It just doesn't happen anymore.
Anyone else find that the video starts out good in the start but then about halfway through it goes off on a tangent about group co-ordination and etc.. lol Sure the title is relevant for the 1st 4- or so mins of the video.
It’s more of a “how did we get to this point”. Fair feedback tho
I wish they would just let healers do 50-60% of the damage dps were doing so you would never see groups who thought it was worth taking just DPS.
If they do 50% of dps dmg and u can play without it ppl will keep playing without it
That's a kinda bad argument tbh. If they did 50-60% of the damage dps were doing then they would still take a dps.
in that case anything you can easily time +15 with say 2 healers 2 dps 1 tank. DPS isn't an issue at that key level more so deaths.
If you had to choose TBC-era healing or today's healing, which would you choose?
Well, this is Blizz's wet dream. Everyone is a DPS but a few got off-healing and another ones reduced damage taken. Working as intended.
On Monday I did some floodgate runs on the PTR. Some things felt quite overtuned, but overall the dungeon looks fun.
A thing I am very worried about though is the amount of necessary mobility and healing at the same time. I felt really lacking behind with healing.
A solution could be that fade also gives you the ability to cast while moving for 3-5 seconds.. although not perfect it will help with these issues for holy priest in mobility intensive fights.
Furthermore I really don’t understand the stats on the tier set for priests.. we need haste versa and crit for m+. The upcoming expand we seem to get almost none.. I think there should be a m+ set next to the existing raid set..
the biggest mistake blizzard made this past season is convincing me that my time is better spent elsewhere. just isn't fun to heal anymore
Given how many healers demanded tank nerfs........... /shrug oh well
Ah yes a company that always missed game breaking bugs with a FULL QA team continues to let game breaking bugs through with a skeleton QA team. Checks notes. Yep
Checks notes: they are still buying the store mounts.
Healing needs to be made way way way easier is also more fun. There are not enough healers and guilds are LITERALLY disbanding and dying because of the difficulty of finding healers, nevermind mythic (raid) capable ones.
Healing's a piece of piss. So easy, to the point where on my RDruid I'm dpsing frequently
They should do a ptr round where you give players a massive like 3 or 3 or 4 or 5 times increase to play HP the. Let healers test it out with increasing damage taken or healing done to change time to heal.
The fix wouldn't work for Hpal, it doesn't do raid-wide healing - it would literally cause the problem, being either too strong in M+ or dogshit in raid. It can't be a blanket solution because the healers don't all work the same. Tbh personally I'm fine with a specific heal spec only being good in one or the other but what frustrates me is them nerfing specs that are already bottom-tier in 5-man like Rdruid and Hpal alongside ones that are actually overperforming like Disc and Rsham. Do they just deliberately create a revolving door of meta specs or what? Everyone is already rolling monk and the patch isn't even out.
Blizz would have to totally re-design so many things if they removed defensives from DPS specs. My Arcane Mage for example. I have alter time, greater invis, iceblock, prismatic barrier, and mass barrier (can't think of any other defensives at the moment -- think that's my whole kit). I'd be fine losing some of those buttons, but then my sustain in Delves content would plummet, and my Mage, who is already laughably bad in Delves compared to my DK, would be even worse.
This is such a massive problem. I fear we are stuck with all this defensive bloat for at least the rest of this expansion. A real missed opportunity for Blizzard.
They are adding a tank class to Brann, shouldn't that alleviate some of the pain of doing delves solo and needing less active mitigation spells? (based on what you said it seems you run solo)
3:20 shout out to Slurpdatanus, yooooo
Isn’t infinitely scaling content the point? Like, there’s no upper limit and that’s how it’s designed on purpose. People talk about M+ as if they expect to be able to do a certain level key but it’s supposed to get impossible.
Precise use of globals and defensives are people barely squeezing out the last bit of efficiency to go further than is otherwise possible. It’s a tactic developed in response to otherwise impossibly difficult content. And if you succeed, the next tier is ever more punishing and difficult. It puts the player base on percentile curve. Only the top end can do the hardest content.
We do 12s without healers just using the rings. However, some are impossible without dispells (unless you have a priest MD or warlock).
The healing gems can do 10-20% increase to a healers overall
The dps gems can 4-9% increase to dps overall
The healing gems are clearly stronger
Is it that hard for Blizz to love healers too lol??? I struggle to get into 10+ as a HP and nowwwwww some moron is going to tell me to go dps bc we don't need no stinking healer!! LOLOL (joking of course, I hope).
I will say I have felt better as aHP in dungeons since the last patch where I feel like I can actually dps some without worrying about the party like a crazy person haha. Really appreciate your content Jak, I have become a better priesty/player because of your content, so thank you!
To be fair, you can only make it so far in mythic raids and dungeons without the utility and burst healing a dedicated healer can provide.
I think being able to run without a healer is awesome, just goes to show that the only thing that healers usually bring is just healing. Make healers have far far more utility, control and group enhancements and that way people will bring a healer because they are actually worth it, not just to keep health bar above 1HP
Holy dogshit take LOL
this is just insane
We're not going to see defensives toned down until a new expansion. That's just a bigger piece of game-wide class design work than Blizz have ever been willing to do mid-expansion. The question is will we see it happen in Midnight or not.
Very much agreed
for Hpriest, They could change our mastery so that it becomes useful in m+ as for so long mastery is a joke stat for m+ But amazing for Raid.
I also think mistakes are punished too heavily especially on a healer. I've been running some 8-10 the last couple of weeks. The difference between people knowing what to do and people not knowing what to do is huge, too huge in my opinion. If people know what they are doing healing is a breeze. When people don't know what they are doing it is very stressful and sometimes impossible.
Blizzard just needs to take out those healing gems. Nobody uses them in keys regardless (or even in raids unless it's for this), because they made the secondary stats gem more powerful. Have played pretty much every healing spec and none of them use any of those gems. They're completely useless. Also, they need to stop nerfing defensives and dps aoe healing abilities if they're not going to buff healer aoe capabilities.
seeing that 4 mythic bosses were cleared in raid without a healer brings the question as to why in the world are dps dying in the first place? watching MDI runs without healers should be the BIGGEST slap in the face to EVERY dps player in the game. This just proves how TERRIBLE so many dps players really are. dps players have so much brain damage because they don't understand how to press defensive buttons cause it's a dps loss. but being dead is the ultimate dps loss, but again most of the dps players can't figure that out, which makes m+ so much more stressful on healers than it needs to be.
Blizz simply has to gut self healing at this point. Make it where healers focus on healing, no need at all for them to DPS or do other stupid stuff. Any DPS they do is gravy and removing debuffs and such needs to be available to all classes so healers aren't burdened with that as well.
There’s no putting the dps pandora back in the box. Disc and MW do the bulk of their healing via dps, so if every other healer does the same healing as them and no dps why would you take a non dps healer? You also can’t make them weaker since then they wont be able to make healing checks others would.
@@cow1202 You rework them so they don't focus on damage? Disc can be focused around absorption and MW can be a mixture of Disc+resto druid. Healer's shouldn't have to dps right now, damage is absolutely insane, the worst it's been in any m+ season, healers are stressed enough to meet healing checks let alone dpsing. Rework the two that require dps to heal, and it will fix the others.
@ I don’t think destroying two of the most unique healers would really have the positive effect you think it would.
@cow1202 Unique isn't always good, especially if their uniqueness is outshining every other class to the point it's creating a toxic environment. I can't even get into a 13 because i'm not a disc priest, rsham, mw despite having healed 13s, despite being 3050 io. If them being unique is causing more harm than good, then remove the uniqueness. I'd rather have a meta where every class can shine. 99% of high keys have a disc priest.
@@ZenGardenOzone ok in that case make the other 4 healing specs heal by doing damage.
Blizzard basically brought " Leeroy Jenkins" to the mainstream. No control, just run in and try to out AOE each other.
Sigh. Again we’re overthinking it.
PvP solved this problem ages ago. With a system called dampening.
For m+, at keys 12 and above make mob health and dampening effects increase each lvl. Leave mob dmg done alone.
For raid. Make dampening scale per difficulty AND ramp DOWN the longer a boss is alive. Tune the first 2mins of any boss to NEED a healer to keep the tanks alive.
I mean it's the end of the season it's not a huge issue. This is similar to what they did with the DF ring, it's not a big deal, the majority of groups will still bring a healer. I think Jak forgets that he is in the minority with running set groups and in the 12+ key range. There's nothing wrong with that, but pugs arent going to chance this as it takes way too much coordination.
I really dislike the idea of a general tuning knob for 5man and raid groups. I think the way they did that for some abilities such has healing tide totem or tranquility previously is fine, but I'd hate to see it happen generally. It also feels a bit backwards to me, because they might as well design raids/dungeons so that separate tuning like that wouldn't be necessary. It should work out when you think about it, since you almost always have roughly 1 healer per 5 people, regardless of dungeon or raid.
And this is one of the many reasons I'm not playing retail. Absolute monkeys at Blizz honestly
Unavoidable one-shots in high keys are an expected side-effect of climbing into higher keys...... Once you have obtained all the rewards possible at +10, all tuning bets are off and you can't reasonably expect Blizzard to fine tune everything to some arbitrary 'theoretical highest key possible'.
The best part about people complaining about this, is that it is the same people who anxiously fought with Blizzard to have healers do significant dmg in instanced content. So basically, not only healers aren’t healers anymore (and not even close enough DPS to focus purely on that), but DPS have so many ridiculously OP defensives and healing… Basically at this point just remove the healing role and make it so everyone can just survive con their own.
No, we have to go back to the sources: the tank does its part, the dps hits and the healer heals. I am a discipline priest and starting in 2025 there are people in mythics who do not know that I have to hit to heal... They protest and suggest to me "hit less and heal more!!!!"
@ That’s not specific to Disc, I’ve had that same phrase with legit my 7 healers (all specs) and then, when DPS is missing I’ve had the famous “Good healers can heal/Dps/interrumpt/cc and LoS”. And this have happened on 12s and 13s which is my highest.
Lets be real, when you outgear literally most content ofc healing becomes a spot where you can reduce the amount of healers etc.
Ive been solo healing in HC boosts since i got 635 ilvl, and we boost 13-15 people at the time ( not queen pre-giganerf)
We are 1-2 man healing 4/8M without problems either...Or like 1.5 heal it etc.. Its all about the group really and how good the dodge shit, its not like we can do this at the start when progressing.
All in all, if we dont want stuff like this then just nerf the gems for non healer speccs, easy peasy.. However i like it as is, not many do this and not many groups will make it with this.
Reference my last 4/8M pug with only 6/8M experienced people in group, 4 heal all the way and we were all pumping cause people failed miserably.
I knew this could happen. When the 3 gems first went out i tried using it on raids ans dungeons and these gems do 6-8% each of what a healer does.
About time they discover it. What is 6k secondary stars vs healinf 20% of a healer
So much for the ring being usable next season..
I think healing is in a bad place at the moment. Healing is too much about planning your cds exactly at the right time or you are unable to heal through certain burst windows. Damage intake isn’t smooth at all. So Blizzard is clearly not making their goal. I would like it much more if I had to heal continuously, couldn’t dps, but the damage intake would be way smoother.
Well, there is a stat Versatility that almost everybody avoids... Passive defensiveness should be a choice, good choice... tanks should need defensive stats to be tanky, not chasing just damage... there should be more stats to adjust to the difficulties of different challenges... as in the past, if this dungeon is too difficult you got spell resist gear, flasks, etc. to help you through... the game is so close-minded and spins in a circle called M+... Bring back/recreate the synergies we saw in the game before... profs, classes, specs, world... :/ Still can be faster pace game (if that's what people enjoy) but needs more broad approach to the game as a whole...
Potential solution
MAGA. Make Aggro Great Again. DPS need to be forced to use defensive sometimes. Pulling aggro is a good way to do this. The game is so silly when I know exactly to the second which defensive I’m going to use and when before I even zone into the dungeon. Also makes tanking more interesting. Forces more coordination on AoE pulls. There are tons and tons of downstream effects of requiring tanks to actually threat and forcing dps to abide. If you read this and think. That sounds so dumb. I challenge you to use your brain and actually think it through.
I also wish they'd take away a bunch of defensives & self-heals. Otherwise the game needs a radical redesign in the image of GW2 where healer specs are removed entirely.
Healing has always been my favorite role in WoW, but what are we doing here?
Umm no its just a gimmick that won't be around that long. Its like saying is made the only dps that matters because a raid full of fire mages were nuking bosses in nyalotha when we had corruptions.
They say they want less addon's in there game yet unless your do everything prefect you fail. The amount of stuff to track dodge avoid while healing is crazy high especially if you are the only range in the mythic you can barley cast anyways
knowing blizzard they would be able to actually reduce the defensive and utility for all classes, but not the damage output of the mobs. what i didn't like at all is the transition from almost totally single target damage in shadowlands (expansion where i started playing healer) to a damage profile totally oriented to AOE from dragonflight onwards. not to mention the general increase in player hp that happened in dragonflight S2 etc. There is already a content based on AOE healing the whole party, and that's the raid. you have 3 other healers that give you a hand and that's fine. but in M+ you're alone, and in my opinion the damage should be purely single target, and with it also the healing that is needed. For me this system is deeply wrong. now playing healer is becoming patch after patch more and more stressful and demanding. it's a shame because i loved this role, i never did anything special but i had fun in company. Now i'm on the verge of asking myself: "next season do i want to play healer again?". I think Blizzard in general is digging their own grave. Finding healers and tanks in pug is becoming increasingly difficult, and soon I think players of these 2 roles will be so rare that the overall experience for everyone will be very frustrating.
healers world
More pure healing bosses / trash encounters would be quite nice. Things like having to heal a mob and it takes up a large % of the encounters damage would be a nice or just more constant static damage like the 3rd boss in halls of infusion. More debuffs that aren't focused on damage would be cool as well, not everything has to directly kill us in 0.1 seconds. Have more stuff apply slows or a curse that makes casts take longer - it makes our utility and debuffs important without adding more damage to every fight.
Delete off healing from the game
I was disc from wrath until BFA. Switched to Druid and now…I’m not healing. By the end of SL it was no longer fun. It was tedious and stressful as well as being blamed for deaths. DF and TWW have been similar. I’ll stick to dps until they fix healing back to pre legion.
Massively nerf defensives and make healers do high damage when not healing. Fixed
They need to trim defensive. 1-2 per class is more than enough
WoW in 2025:
-Not all DPS are good at dealing damage
-Not all healers are good at healing damage
-Not all tanks are good at tanking damage
You play the patch, not the game. Just pray your favorite class is apart of the meta each patch.
Edit: Yes most specs are "capable" by the numbers, capable doesn't mean "good".
12s are doable with any comp. For me best season ever. Fastest gearing, beerheads getting wrecked with basic mechanix.
That's WoW in any year from the very beginning. I remember. I was there.
You said that it has been a issue for a long time, but I really ask myself: is it really an issue that players find new ways to bend the rules and play the game whatever way they wants? it's not like it's a widespread thing that should be removed or "fixed", in fact every time Blizzard tries to fix or tackle something like this it always ends up badly, that's why the game is so unfun nowadays
first ruin healing by making it mega hard, then ruin solo gameplay by getting the devs to remove self sustain, can't wait for the game to suck more.
Why was that dumb ring even added to the game? This patch seems like content for the sake of content
Healing is severely under tuned and incoming damage is too high. I really hate healing in TWW. The ring is absolutely necessary and DPS and tanks need to be popping defensive (but they don't). Mistweaver feels fine because you're pumping out healing by just doing damage. Disc is similar but you have to prep heal before DMG healing.
No pruning just expand on choice talents.
Nah, I would prefer pruning.
Remove healing from dps kits, give tanks less self healing and absorption but more dr cooldowns. And rework healers that need to do dps to heal to just be healers. This fixes the issue, this fixes m+, this will be healthy for pvp and pve. LESS IS MORE.
Just disable all self healing abilitys from dps classes on dungeons and raids. Let keep the dmg medigation but disable healing for them.
Just make damage more constant and less powerful. There are dgs that u end with 1.3m healing, others u heal ur ass off and end with 700k overall. Its a fkng big difference betwen the damage profile of the packs.
Initial headline is not really broken game balance
We are *well* overgeared at this point of the season on top of having an absurd severed threads bonus (literally a bonus 3 players in the raid worth of throughput). Gear to complete mythic raid is well before 639, of course the system is gonna bend when we are in month 5 of the content when we’ve achieved every scrap of catchup. We should be enjoying the toys we’ve worked really hard to earn, not bashing the creators of the game
I bet you there are solo healers in first 4 mythic right now and that’s not making headlines, my bud’s guild can duo heal all of 30man heroic
Maybe the circlet should be retuned but is the dps using healing option a niche that should be deleted? I would rather see the dps gems unrestricted for the other roles. I can almost guarantee folks are not gonna be able to bring no healers into a fresh prog next season where no one knows the mechs
As a rogue, this is trash to happen
Great, now the ring will be nerfed into the ground for healers and we'll be forced to stat stick. yippie! hopefully they just modify scaling for dps/tanks and leave healing scaling alone for gems.
So what is the point to use healers now on? Wow should balance things more carefully.
Well 1 the ring is an end of season gimmick, 2 even though this makes it POSSIBLE to do raid/dungeons without a healer, realistically most groups will still need one outside of the really low level stuff. The ring itself is less the problem, it’s moreso the state of healing as a whole
Legend
Instead of trying to do something about this and failing like always, just give healers way more damage
I don't really just want to be a lesser DPS spec. I would prefer to be a healer, & for that to happen DPS self-sustain has to be taken away.
Cool cool, however most people shouldn't worry about this.
I just finish my KSM and sometimes dabble into a bit of HC raiding. Players on my level couldn't make two steps without a healer. In fact, it's impressive how capable of stepping into every single bit of avoidable damage people on my level are.
To be fair, as a healer, why I want to use dps trinkets? Those are for the dps, not for me, the healer. I was surprised when the only trinket that could have been considered 100% for a tank was not part of TWW S1 loot and instead was part of the loot obtained for doing BRM during the anniversary event.
Everything revolves around dpsing to the point I consider only 3 classes are left as pure healing classes while all others are hybrids on a 75-60% dps/25-40% healer logic.
As a main healer I left this expansion, just like many others I knew and left since BfA because of the same issue.
sounds good! we need more of this. Nobody wants to play healer anyway haha.
And no wonder people are former players. Not everyone wants to or can play a social game such as an mmo with this much pressure. The groupis getting smaller and smaller as intense as the game has become. Dark souls is a solo game, group games with thsi much difficulty no ownder many people appear to act toxic.
Is the programming so complicated that Blizz couldn't just make the talent tree a mandatory either or? If you want to raid then these talents will only work while in a raid group and vice versa only in a 5 man? This is only for healing in M+ and conversely you can only run these set of talents in a raid.
Kinda removes the point of a talent tree if you’re forced what tree to use
At that point go back to the pre df talents
@johnnyll91 you could still manipulate specific talents but like Jack was saying how do you balance m+ healing and raid healing? Even worse is when they make a spec awesome in raid and unable to get invites in m+
Case in point, BM Hunter raid DPS in the beginning of the season was top three if I remember correctly, try getting invited to a 10 or higher in M+ without waiting 45mins
Nice, bet you their going to nerf healers again cause they still heal to much.
They do in raid. And not enough in m+. Healers need an aura buff in m+ and an aura nerf in raid. 20% less in raid and 20% more in m+
Honestly so over playing healer in this game lmao...all started in Dragonflight. Just let us feel strong please....not replaced by dps.
Jak b right
interesting
This is good! Healers should go back to shadowland where there’s less healing needed and more window to do dmg
Its become Elder Scrolls Online. Everyone is so self sufficient in that game that you only need a healer for the most high end content. Its a big reason I left that game.
I don’t understand what is the problem with healers being able to push the health bars fast? Isn’t that what makes the role fun after all? Isn’t that what means to give power to healers? Since when being weak and powerless as a healer is more fun than being strong?
If healers push health bars too fast then blizz balances around it and makes damage insanely bursty and requiring defensives. There’s a sweet spot for sure but we’re at an extreme point rn
@ I don’t mind having bursty damage as long as my toolkit as a healer allows me to push their health back up fast and be full for the next burst which may happen in few seconds. That is fun for me at least. Or I also don’t mind being able to overheal some mechanics in a raid if dps fuck up something (a soack or an add not dying in time, etc). That is also fun and makes u noticeable as a healer. What I don’t like, and I encounter that more often lately, is that I use my toolkit as a healer and I barely moved their health bars (u can argue that I am a bad one I don’t mind just 2,7k here) and they won’t be full for the next burst. Plus in an infinite scalable system as it is mythic+ any type of dmg will eventually become at some point bursty and/or one shot. So there is no point in not giving the power to healers to push the health bars fast. That is what I consider being fun at the role as a healer. Being weak as a healer just makes the role feel bad and pushes ppl away from it. The problem in my opinion is that the game right now is designed for sweats, that top1%. And had become more like a job where you have to do specific stuff (do not overlap interrupts, use the right defensive in the right moment, etc) in order to succeed than a game where you suppose to have fun. If u want to be a sweater you can still be a sweater even if the game is fun and healers have power and the role is attractive to ppl. Why to make it unfunny? Or what is fun for you as a healer?
Just great, not!
I hate being a doomer but man this game seems fucked. :(
another evidence that blizz cant read their data and has no clue wtf they are doing.
Idk why healing can't just be easy.
Nobody likes it when healing is hard. Not tanks or dps or especially healers. Make them OP and make it be damage that is limiting factor in content, not healing.
Dogshit take, please unplug your keyboard
The trinity needs to end. Players should be responsible for their own survival.
It's just a random thing that'll get nerfed into the group, why are freaking out about this lol
People are just frustrated that blizzard continues to screw up season after season and not listen to its players. We’re finally starting to see a lot more repercussions because of it as well.
TLDR is that blizz makes a bad overall environment for healers so when these little things come up they make stupid no healer runs very possible. If overall healing was better than I don’t think these things would be as srs