The Hater's Guide to SawStop
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- Опубликовано: 15 фев 2023
- I have been thinking about SawStop and its patent for a long time. I used to think that they shouldn't have it all to themselves. But, after doing a lot of research and thinking about this, I've concluded about the whole SawStop patent controversy. This video is not sponsored. Some product links are Amazon and other affiliate links, meaning if you buy something, we'll receive a small commission. This helps support my channel so I can continue to make content like this.
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This has got to be a joke? Buy the saw stop if you want the technology. If you don't buy the saw stop then you clearly do not care about the safety expense.
I personally hold several patents and see both sides of the debate. Benjamin Franklin held an interesting prospective. His most famous invention was the lightning rod which was credited with saving numerous lives. Franklin was a prolific inventor, but never held a patent. In his autobiography it says “That, as we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours; and this we should do freely and generously“.
@@roberthenry5657 Glad to serve others is one thing but a video implying that the inventor is greedy is something entirely different. Forced voluntarism is just wonderful.
Please make something........get back to the vids that got me to subscribe to you in the first place....
@@roberthenry5657 sadly society has monetised everything. The benevolence of some of our fore fathers, is sadly invisible nowadays! In every facet of society, public servants (who chose to serve people in multiples of roles) are castigated for the slightest mistake; peoples first thought when something goes wrong is blaming someone, suing someone. Just two examples, sadly, that has twisted society to what it is today. And that's not to speak of the rate of this increase! Social media!
And yet - here we are, having the opportunity to discuss- through the very same vehicle, that accelerates all of the above. Oh, the irony! 😂
As a patent attorney (and a woodworker), I am pretty impressed by your summarization of the situation. One thing I'd point out is that at this time, Sawstop is owned by TTS Holdings, AG, the same company that owns Festool. So, it's up to TTS to make decisions about licensing/releasing the technology now.
Was planing to point out the same thing.
You can buy a Festool table saw with this technology inside. The TKS 80, which I assume is not available in the US. Too bad though because it also works as a panel saw and is, in most ways much better than the typical sawstop cabinet saw.
@@pablomax9376 It's a $2100+ Jobsite saw that apparently has issues with the fence staying square and poor flatness consistency. About it's only real draw I think is that it's the only Sawstop-equipped saw in Europe right now. In the US the SS Contractor saw gives you a bigger, flatter table on a more stable base at a lower price.
@@1steelcobra Never heard about people having issues with them. I tested one out for a few weeks and liked it, but I have a hammer K3 as my main saw, so did not see the need to buy it. If my shop was smaller, I would likely be fine with it though.
How do I go about getting a patent on an idea that isn't physical yet?
@@MacalusoWoodworking4777 apply for a patent.
Although I don't have a SawStop, I agree that it's amazing technology and that the company should be allowed to make a profit. My complaint, and why I still am "salty" in regards to SS is when they tried to force their tech to be applied to competitors through the government. To me, their actions towards Bosch when it came up with a similar safety system, SS is more profit driven at this point. If another company comes up with a competitive product that isn't stopped by patent attorneys, I will consider their product over SS when it is time to buy my next saw. Until then, if/when I upgrade, it will probably boil down to the Unisaw, PM66, or one of the Harveys.
I couldn't have said it better. Almost any brand other than SS.
Exactly the issue isn’t that they didn’t give the tech out for free, the issue is they attack anybody for anything that makes the saw safer and they gobble up pattens that even look like the second cousin of their tech and sue anybody who tries to make a saw safer while trying to mandate that their saw be the only saw legal to sell.
Totally agree! I'm all for safety, but I'm also 100% for freedom! When saw stop tried to have the government force the technology on everyone , and that was too much in my opinion!
@@jhondoe1483 It's almost a side effect of our patent system. If they don't "attack" others, then when they do, maybe for what you'd consider a more legitimate purpose, they will have their patent voided for not fighting the earlier infringement.
@@chrischurch4551 that’s kinda my argument tho, they went out of their way to defend the broadness of the patent not the idea, they do not want anybody to make a saw that’s safe because it’s financially detrimental to them, they don’t make the best saw, they make the safest saw, if the best saws were just as safe they wouldn’t have a standing to charge 2 times what the market demands for their caliber of saw.
I am all for the patent system at the macro scale, where I have a problem is when the owner of the patent keeps filing additional patents through the years that do not substantially change the products function to lengthen the time frame beyond 20 years. The sawstop from 20 years ago functions nearly identical to the one today. The mechanism is the same and the original patent expired in 2019, yet they use their patents as a weapon to keep the rest of the industry from using the same safety device that they have been lobbying to make mandatory in table saws for over 15 years.
When it was time to upgrade to a new tablesaw in 2010, I wrestled with the added cost of flesh saving technology that SawStop offered. At that time, I had been using tablesaws for 40 years without any accidents. What convinced me, was the cost of medical bills. At that time, an amputation started at $25K before insurance. So viewing the extra cost of the SawStop as a one time insurance premium, the economics of the saw became clear. 10 years later I had an accident, and a bandaid was all the medical expense needed with no permanent damage to my hand! My 3 HP professional cabinet SawStop is a very good saw, equal to any Powermatic, Jet, or Delta cabinet saws I’ve used. Totally worth the extra cost!
Bridget, thank you for a succinct and cogently reasoned support of the Saw Stop! I do not know why there is a need to defend even the basic protective function, but there we have it, humans can just be irrational despite the best efforts of evolution.
The most safety conscious person I know had a table saw accident. Even though it was just the tip of their finger, it was a hell of a reminder that anyone can have an accident.
Currently I am just not buying a tablesaw, as I am way too clumsy and I wouldn't use it enough to have a saw stop make sense.
I was hoping to see news of others coming out with something as patents expire.
@@aviphysics, some extremely exciting systems are being demonstrated now, but only for commercial and industrial level sliding saws. Felder, the first, then Altendorf and a third I do not know, whose name I cannot remember.
Its great you have the money and can afford such an expensive saw, its just not an option for many. If money where no object I am sure everyone would buy one, but if your options are - buy a $300 saw and get to work, or stop woodworking all together, its a tougher decision, and that is the choice many people are faced with
I've never had a problem in my 20 years of working in the industry. While It does interest me, I don't find it too concerning. I'm pretty sure my next saw will have these technologies as saw stops patent is up in 2026.
If the American government hasn't been concerned enough to force saw stop to license it, and I have a track record of being perfectly safe. I don't see a need until market adoption.
That being said if anyone is in the market for a table saw right now. I certainly wouldn't fault you for buying one. It's a smart choice for sure!
The only blades that tend to cut me are angle grinders and razor blades. But I run my grinders without the OSHA approved guard thingy. F that thing, I need to work, not play with guards trying to work...
As a guy who lost the tip of one finger, 8 percent is nothing. Sawstop tried going the route of selling their tech. Didn't work so they did the next best thing. Good on em. I'm currently saving up to buy a bigger tablesaw for my business/hobby. Guess what I'll be purchasing 😁
Yup, they tried to have it in all saws. No one wanted to touch it.
i'm guessing ryobi? :)
@@keithf5236😂😂😂
Lost the last inch of my thumb to a table saw 3 years ago. United we stand brother!
Only way I will have one is that someone gives one to me...
Thank you for this! I taught Technical Theatre. It took me a couple of years to talk my school into buying a Sawstop for my shop after the company introduced the technology. It paid for itself almost immediately when another teacher who had access thought he’d do a little weekend work (he paid for the new brake and blade). Took much of the worry out of wood shop. Well worth the money and now that I have retired, I’m ready to buy my own.
Being a person who has lost a couple of fingers in a table saw accident, I now own a sawstop. My injury in total cost me ~900k before insurance. 8% is nothing compared to the medical bills that I had. Thank you sawstop.
That sucks, but I give my thanks to Microjig for the Gripper, which has taken a lot of hits from the blade instead of my hand and saved me from kickback a few times.
You make a valid argument. IS it true that switching to a Dado set up is a bit of a hassle because a module needs to be switched out.
I'm looking but still have my Grizzly which even old still cuts well
@@beebob1279 I can switch out the blade and module to a dado blade and module in less than 90 seconds. It is not a hassle at all.
@@dbkarmann1 This is what I'm looking for. It doesn't take long, so the saw can be put back on the list. I'll ask the dealer to demonstrate the switch of blades. As I say, if a dealer can't work the machine I won't buy from them.
Thank you
@@beebob1279 Yeah I make blade changes quite a bit from dado to regular blade and very fast and easy. I have actually had an accidental trigger of the mechanism. I didn't even realize I touched the blade and it disappeared and left me with a scratch. It is definitely worth having.I might make a video of it on my black wood works youtube channel. 😁
When I upgraded my table saw, I was really torn between a $3000 saw stop and a much less expensive contractor saw (like a Delta, Rigid, or Laguna). My brother asked me "how much would you pay to have your fingers back if you accidentally cut them off?" I bought the Saw Stop, cried once, and never looked back. (The fact that it is also a really well-made saw certainly helped me get over it.
From what I've heard they're just as well respected for the overall quality and performance as much as the safety. Which makes me think that if the tech becomes PD (either through patent expiry or explicit open licensing) SawStop wouldn't be in any real trouble. For one thing, even if every other manufacturer decides to implement it they're not going to have it in their entire product line overnight. And plenty of people likely would be skeptical of new implementations and keep using the more proven SawStop, at least for the first few years.
And if they ended up losing some market share in 5 or 10 years? That's a feature of the patent system, not a bug. You're only allowed to milk an invention that others can easily replicate for a decade or two.
No argument, they are one of the best made saws on the market.
And if SAW STOP shared the technology, even selling the rights to other makers to produce a saw , there would be many many more people who would save fingers, thumbs and hands. Apparently Saw STOP does not have that mindset.. It's all about the money.
In my mediocre to average saws with a safety feature at obscene prices.
@@ailivac or you could have practice better safety and not lost your fingers in the first place. You could lose fingers on many power tools but don't have such a safety mechanism on them. Being afraid of these tools is not a bad thing if it heightens your concentration when using them
@@ailivac As he said in the video, adding the tech only adds about $300 to build cost. SawStop would definitely have to lower their price tags a lot since all of their saws are 2-3x more than comparable quality saws.
Never underestimate the cheapness of the average consumer. That's why you see people with giant american flags draped on their cars and "America First" bumper stickers buying up cheap crap at Wal-Mart.
Great vid!
I think that SawStop could've gone for an in-between solution: take a low (1-2%) licensing fee, but make sure that no other manufacturer can make their own cartridges.
All tablesaw manufacturers would've added the sawstop feature, and the amount of sold cartridges would be significantly higher than whatever the number is now.
that's why some companies give the main product away for very low cost and make their money on the replacements and oor sullies. Cell phones are practically given away because the companies make there money on the subscriptions.
It's the printer ink/toner model. Works pretty profitably for HP, Brother, Canon, and many others.
The WiFi consortium of manufacturers use a model something like this. They form a group, and the needed patents for the groups' "Standards" are available at some pre-negotiated "Fair and Reasonable" rates. There is even talk of moving that fee to a percentage of the finished product. That sort of model means any NEW WiFi manufacturer does not need to make a deal with each patent holder, but just uses the overall standard group's patent fee contract for everything needed to make a compliant device.
Maybe SawStop could form a "SawStop Safety" manufacturing group. Invite a few key players to contribute some IP as well, and everyone would now have access to manufacture that technology (or buy it from SawStop as an outsource) using a pre-negotiated patent portfolio fee.
@@cliffart7398 There is nothing cheap about most cell phones. I use mine 99.99% of the time as a phone, only not for the internet. The only exception is one or two pictures per year and navigation, which is nice. So, spending $1000.00 for a phone is, in my opinion, not wise.
No company would allow a product they do not have full access to sell. Dewalt would expect to sell cartridges with a dewalt branding on it. Not to mention 8% is fairly standard, notice the issues he read never mentioned cost of the fee. On a $500 saw 2% is $10 but that is retail so in reality about $6 maybe, so who ever makes the stock saw blade would get a higher profit than sawstop.
What I don’t get is why they fear litigation for not putting it in low end models. Look at cars, blind spot monitoring and auto brakes and other safety systems can be optionable on a car and come with a high price. Some features only being availed on their top models. No lawsuits there. Oh and Volvo can give away something free as they are a mega million dollar company, sawstop would invent spend time and money and then make nearly none. Not full bankruptcy as some people would still buy their brand.
8 percent is just the licensing fee. The cost to actually add this to saws is $150-200 as stated, which is 50-66% on a $300 saw.
How much is your finger or a limb worth to you?
Also, compare the small additional fee compared to your medical bill if you do save some cash and whack your finger off.
whoops on their part!
Seems a bad business decision to not implement the Sawstop tech into tablesaws. A visit to the ER from a TS accident is tens of thousands of dollars and even the best insurance - the insured persons cost is more than the increase in saw cost! It comes down to a personal responsibility for your own safety. I don’t have a problem with government regulating safety. The current EPA or OSHA rules protect all of us and end up costing companies money…..what else is new. I don’t think Sawstop should have given their tech away. Saw manufacturers should have paid the dang fee and made safer better saws,
Sawstop is the fastest growing saw company bar none!
I think Sawstop made the right decision to build their own saws given the circumstances at the time. The other saw companies probably made the right business decision for them too. My point is that an 8% increase in the price of a cheap saw could likely be accepted by consumers, but a 60% increase would have destroyed the low end saw business. Yes, $200 is cheaper than losing a finger, but so is $5000.
Other safety features like riving knives, blade guards, and good fence design go a long way to making saws safer. If, say, only Ryobi had licensed the Sawstop technology, their jobsite saws would go for $500, while every other brand's saws would be selling for $300. The only way I could see this working is if all the brands licenced the tech at the same time and everyone raised prices, so the cheapest saw from any brand was $500.
The Sawstop story should probably be compared with airbags (a passive safety tech) rather than seatbelts (active safety). Airbags were patented in 1953, but no automakers were interested. It wasn't until the patent expired in the 1970s that automakers first started experimenting with it, and they eventually became common in the 1990s.
When you consider 'some' consumers make decision affecting national security by buying China duplicate products to save $5, 8% + hardware costs does look like commercially un-viable. Viability = survival, so if the government won't commit it to law, then that's the end of the road.
I love that you made this video and I loved that you used the seatbelt as an example. I have thought for many years that it is criminal that this technology isn't more widely available in other brands. The seatbelt is a great example and it could be said for parachutes and airbags. It's been 20 years. They've made their money. Great video.
Nice summary. Well done. One of the reasons saw stop succeeded is certainly the safety technology but also they make very good table saws. Even without the safety factor they are a pleasure to use with all the accuracy and power you’d expect at the price point.
Agreed. Granted, this was my first brand new large machine purchase, but I was blown away by the thoroughness of everything from the assembly instructions with color coded hardware bubbles to match the color coded booklet, the fit of all the parts during assembly (EVERYTHING fit perfectly!), the tool-less quick-change between riving knife and blade guard, and the overall construction of the machine. It's an absolute pleasure to use!
FWIW, for the previous 20 years, I had mostly used an early 80's Powermatic at my school (shop teacher).
Great video essay. I don't know if the story has been told like this before, so it is great to have the timeline and chain of events documented and presented in such a fashion. Great work!
I agree.
Let’s hope Sawstop likes it and doesn’t sue me for something I accidentally got wrong
@@731Woodworks pretty sure the 1st Amendment applies here. As long as you’re not knowingly giving out false defamatory information… and I didn’t hear anything of the sort. It was done respectfully and as well researched as possible.
**But I’m not an attorney.
Matt this video is great!!! Excellent information! i know people gripe about "project videos" but this video was sooo worth the watch!
Thanks for making this video. This gives the consumer good info when making a purchase decision for a new table saw. I love the reference to Volvo as Safety is one of their core values.
Great video, with a balanced perspective. Here's another part of the picture. Mr Gas and partners didn't just make another table saw -- they made a damned fine saw, as good as or better than any comparable saw on the market. They took their amazing innovation and then wrapped a first-rate saw around it. They went the distance. And I believe that explains their success at least as much as the braking technology at this point.
interestingly, i think what SawStop has done is create the "margin" in costs for themselves to build an amazing saw in multiple ways because their corner on the safety feature market creates a very high willingness to pay. they could have made a saw exactly like the competitors, and charged only a few hundred more, and probably still outpaced the competition. but instead they put the price point very high, and then added a lot of other great technology and design to their products. you could say that the JSS and the CTS are starting to break that model, because they're making saws that are much closer to the competition other than the safety feature, while still charging > 100% (possibly 200%) mark-up. that said, i do still think the JSS (which I recently bought) is better (and bigger) than its nearest competitor (DeWalt 7491, which I also own). but the gap in quality for those smaller saws doesn't quite justify the price gap as much as, say, their contractor saw justifies the markup over similar contractor saws without the safety feature. but i am sure they did their market research and priced it where it needs to be for them.
Their higher end saws are very good, but the saws they're comparable to in quality are also half the cost. When you take into account that he said adding the SawStop tech adds maybe $300 at most to the machine build, you quickly realize how much you're getting fleeced.
@@thomashajicek2747 Sawstop 3hp cabinet saw is currently $3,582 while the comparable Powermatic is $4,899. I’ve owned both and the Sawstop is a better machine backed by substantially better customer service. Oliver is about the only other saw that is in the same class as far as 3hp 50-52”cabinet saws, and it is $400 more than the Sawstop. Jet, Grizzley, Laguna, and Baileigh are all inferior and not comparable. Harvey is probably comparable, but it, too, is more than the Sawstop.
@Thomas Hajicek have you compared a pcs to an equivalent competitor saw ? Features, function, quality, warranty, customer service, and yes price? Using the term fleece isn't applicable here. Why do you see it as fleecing when a competitor brand saw is the same or higher cost without the safety feature?
@@matthewl.459 I can get a Laguna Harvey or Grizzly 3hp table saw to name a few for more than $1,000 less than a 3hp Sawstop. And I’m sure they are all already making comfortable profit margins.
We already know the Sawstop safety feature adds maybe $300 in build cost. So now you need to look at that other features the sawstop has over those other saws, if any, and decide is it’s worth $700+ out of you pocket. For me the answer is no. It’s up to you to be honest with yourself and decide.
I really researched all 10" cabinet saws to run alongside my Felder sliding saw. I needed a 10" for precision work and run my Incra systems. I ended up buying the Harvey 4HP Alpha with TiN coated top. I'm pretty happy with that decision.
Love my fielder.📐🇨🇦
@@troyqueen9503 I have their 16" Jointer/Planer, Shaper with power feeder, large bandsaw and the Hammer edge sander which is a great machine. I am setting up the Harvey saw in a couple of weeks. I bought it without fence and rails so I could install the complete Incra LS positioner based system. I'm going to build the extension table as a storage drawer system with the router lift in it. It them joins what will be the workbench. I'm still working on that design or how to do that one. So far I have to say I'm impressed with the Harvey saw.
How do you find the tin top? I also bought mine with the tin top, I regret it. Not worth the money, I’ve had rust spots on it, which I was under the assumption that it prevents rust. It also doesn’t glide as well as cast iron.
@@jac_builtWoodworks I just got it a few weeks ago so don't have it set up yet. If that top rusts I'll be talking to Harvey about it right quick!
@@jac_builtWoodworks I use the CRC dry lube moly spray coating, it's like olive green spray paint. It does periodically wear off but it is a great anti-friction surface, nothing rusts, the fence slides easier, and I coat blades with it too which reduces scrubbing them to remove pitch- the teeth clean themselves after applying.
I bought a Reaxx before the ban, and really liked the machine and the mechanism vs the SawStop option for smaller lightweight saws. The only reason I sold it was because I upgraded from a jobsite saw to the more powerful SawStop PCS. I understand the patent protections but SawStop's root patents (the ones Bosch was found to infringe on) are really close to the "do but this time with table saws" that is used to invalidate so many other patents. Honestly, I think the safety options would now be MUCH better across the board if there had been room for competition around the basic idea of a capacitative touch sensor on a blade (vs lamps, switches, etc).
As for "patent troll" … there are some that come up with their own inventions. The term is more often used for companies that own/enforce/license patents but do not product the thing themselves. Looking up some numbers, that 8% license fee is basically HALF of the profits for tool sales. That's incredibly high, and in the realm of patent trolls. However, SawStop stopped heading down the path of being a patent troll as soon as they started actually producing their own products. And not simply making flesh-sensing saws, but machines that can stand on their own against the competition even without the flesh sensing mechanism (and great customer support, too).
Excellent well thought out commentary. Super happy I bought my Sawstop 2 years ago. Fantastic #1 go to in my shop. ZERO regrets!
Great breakdown. But it sounds to me that the biggest blocker here isn’t the patents, it’s the blood-sucking attorneys who would sue over a product NOT having a feature when that feature was never promised to be included and the courts that would side with them.
nope... it is the sales people trying to hit a price point.
Exactly right. This guy tried to pass himself as a witness against a competitor in a consumer lawsuit. I wonder why he or the consumer's lawyers thought that would work at all in a court room. All the Ryobi lawyer would have to ask him about is his line of business and instant discredit for conflict of interest.
Lawyers are just the tool people use to sue. Frankly I am more worried about laws preventing people from suing. Just look at antislapps. They force you to win a trial without discovery just to continue the trial. They are often mishandled by judges and appeals courts rarely give a shit.
The legal system already has some massive gates keeping people out.
I agree. The featyre could be offered on a higher priced saw and the customer could be told the technology is available, do you want it on you saw. If they decline, they should have a very hard time suing. Peeople hqve the option of buying cars that are crash rated higher than others and I don't see law suits from Chevy owners who wrecked their car when they could have had a Volvo. A much safer car. Patent yes, buyer beware.
@@squarelevelplumb There isathird option. design the game with the sawstop i mind and allow it to be sold separately. They could still fork over the 8% and only the people who buy the stop will want it.
This is an awesome topic to discuss. I remember those early days when the technology was just coming out. I was in high school/graduating. They tried multiple routes to get this to market, in the end they just had to do it themselves. I think they did the right thing in making a product that was safety focused in all their equipment. Lots of good points of liability and or litigation if the safety features were an option. In the end I see it as a luxury feature, not a must have.
To another point, Insulin patent was sold for $1 in 1923... Was to be free for improvements and such. Sadly big pharma's greed has allowed them to gouge individuals that rely on insulin to survive. I would have a Sawstop if not needing insulin since I was a kid.
Appreciated the history/business information on this saw. I really love mine and knowing the safety behind it makes me more confident in using it more often. I think a lot of people are fearful of using saws because of the danger. Imagine how many more people would own any type of saw if that technology was in all table saws.
fear of power tools is not a bad thing. So you are no longer afraid of your table saw but what other power tools do yo use that could also injure you? Practice good safety. Make it a habit and safety because natural.
I chose a 5hp unisaw over a sawstop 15yrs ago. I did get sawstop for my classroom liability reasons. If it’s available and you don’t get then the school could be sued. I like my unisaw better. Sawstop has an issue with their the worm gear coming out of alignment. It happened on the school’s and at my woodworking club shop. The club’s has broken down 4 times in 2 years.
I’m with you. The SawStop folks tried for years to get this into other brands first. Only after banging their heads against the walls of corporate politics did they finally say “Screw you, we’ll do it ourselves!”
They didn’t want to compete against the other big names, they wanted to work with them. But the big boys forced SawStop into becoming a brand and monopolizing the tech for themselves.
Nailed it!
Yep, that's what I'm thinking too. The big names didn't want it, and now are essentially blocking widespread implementation.
Great job! I wished you had included the fact that Sawstop tried to get the courts to mandate this tech in every saw sold in the US. When Bosh gave away their antilock breaking system to the whole car industry for free to increase safety. Sawstop is all about the money.
E
Same with Mercedes controlled crumple front ends-gave it away for free-thousands of lives saved.Certainly inventors are due compensation but everyone suffers if it becomes excessive-really extorsion
The fabric the us flag is made of is greed.
Thank you! I have always wondered about this whole story and you told it very well.
When SawStop petitioned that consumer product safety board or whatever it is called to make their technology mandatory, which would force the hands of other manufacturers to license their product, then that’s where the company looses the benefit of the doubt. Also when they sued for Bosch for coming up with their own alternative, then you know they aren’t actually worried about the consumers safety, they are concerned about their bottom line. They also sell their saws at double the price of their competitors for what is apparently only a $200 add on, so they are a greedy company. I have been aware of SawStop shenanigans for many years but this was a great summary video, thank you. One thing I don’t think SawStop has considered is that they could have the monopoly on the table saw industry if they sold at a more competitive price, at just $200 more than the equivalent competitors model no business/contractor or even home shop builder could ethnically justify not buying a saw that costs $200 more to save a workers finger. However, when their bench top saw is $1000 compared to their competitors $300-$400 then the water become more murky, most people simply are not willing to spend that kind of money on a bench top when they can get a good contractors saw or entry level cabinet saw for that kind of money. If SawStop was smarter they could be in every shop.
Great deep dive into this subject... This is a discussion that goes on all over the world over many safety items I am sure. I think SawStop did it the way it needed to be done for them. I have no issue with how this worked out.
The me....as a former teacher...not having this tech in ALL table saws is like trying to teach the history of WWII without providing all the facts. It just makes the situation dangerous for no good reason aside from "we want money for it".
I am ALL for adding safety to any and everything I use in my garage, and would at that point also be willing to pay extra for that safety if it means I get to keep all my fingers and appendages intact. I'm kind of fond of having them around.
Amazing video! I think they did the right thing, they tried to get it out there and companies didn't believe in them. But I also think it's time to open up. Competition has created some of the best and biggest innovations we now know. I'd absolutely prefer to save some extra money and wait to get a table saw, than risking a life-changing injury
Thank you very much for the information. I have serious issues with “How much money is enough” philosophy. I have been considering a Sawstop for some time now. I just cannot support a company that the thickness of their pockets is the most important thing. 20+ years--come on. Enough is enough. I decided to go with the Fusion 2. This is after I made the mistake of buying a Rigid job site saw. I should have listened to you then Matt. Also, I would like to thank you for all your content. I am a beginner woodworker and I can’t begin to thank you for all your videos. The content is awesome but the message is priceless. Well done. Thanks again.
I actually researched this topic not too long ago. I looked up the timeline, patents, and a lot of the details you mentioned. This video is spot on in terms of research and effort!
Also, I don't think anyone can blame SawStop for doing what they did. They had a chance to jump on that train and disregarded it. If SawStop had failed as a company, no one would have batted an eye. So they can't be mad about it now.
I have no issue with the saw. I just have an issue with mandating the tech that prices novice out of learning, because all the saw are to expensive.
@@agdtec it would suck initially. But economies of scale would kick in and over time, it would be way cheaper to implement. Over time, companies would find cheaper ways of rolling out the same tech. The only thing holding them back right now is the patent. I'm sure half of them have something in the works, waiting for all the patents to expire.
@@MakingMadeSimple WE can all hope. But look at the European saws. They are mas purposefully not to have dado blades. I have no problem with the saw stop saw per se but I don't want to see regulation making it mandatory for all saw. Especially with the low percentage of users injured. And the blade guard stops finger from getting to close but to many find them a pain to use.
With this story I think it is pretty amazing that the inventor of the technology realized that it was too important to just throw away when no manufacturer wanted to work with him, and decided to create and sell his own saw.
Yes but being a small company puts them at a serious disadvantage. In their case they are still around because the technology is relatively important to a group of people who can afford to buy the technology. In my case, the fact that large companies could negotiate low price alternatives to American made suits in China put almost all specialty men's stores out of business because they did not have the same advantages of scale as the big companies like Joseph A. Banks etc.. We were stuck with American made goods and the market never adapted. Now the only specialty men's retailers that sell suits are the high end specialty stores that virtually sell custom suits. Sawstop now represent that market in table saws and they are still at a disadvantage.
Agreed, but then gets turned into bad guy for not giving it away. Weird perspective people have.
I think they only tried licensing first because it would be the fastest and easiest way to make money. Their initial analysis was probably that margins and work going into making their own saw would be less profitable.
It's really all about the money.
@@CalvinJ82it's gets turned into that because Sawstop's CEO has been lobbying constantly to ban all table saws that don't include his technology.
When he came up with the system, numerous companies tried to work with him because they wanted to implement it, including Delta, but for some reason could not come to an agreement. When other companies came up with their own system, they were successfully sued by Sawstop, because any system relies on sensing an electrical current through the blade, even if the mechanism is totally different.
Lastly, all these companies get royalties from each other for various patents all the time, such as dewalts rack and pinion fence system which numerous brands have adopted(Milwaukee, Hitachi, Skilsaw, etc). It's strange that Sawstop couldn't come to an agreement with any of them, except by court order, and has continued to lobby to force them into business with him by legal route.
Love the channel, Ive been following you since you had like 20k subs. Just want to make one correction. At the end you say anyone whos ever touched the blade would pay 8% more. It isnt 8% more. Its the cost to re-engineer the saws and the cost to add that tech into the saw and then 8% on top of all of that. That said Great Job Bro!! Have a blessed day!
Just stepping in to say thank you sir for your mindset on life as well as being an informative source for woodworking.
God bless!
Great subject! Its been a topic lately mainly because of the original patent being about up, not counting all the others (great point!) and how cool it would be if all the other manufacturers have it. Hindsight being "20/20" I'm certain more than a few wish they had the foresight to take them up on it but, as your well presented video points out, it's a MUCH more complex issue. The big stumbling block is the "if we put it on one, we'd have to put it on all" argument is a compelling one in our litigious world. Also, say one older tech model resembles the new models close enough, would that then open themselves up for lawsuits? Would they now, to protect their interests, have to retrofit ALL previous models? Unless there was some sort of legislation passed to protect manufacturers from this I'd say it's the main reason why nobody would proceed with the technology. Furthermore, it was probably the reason why it never got traction in the first place. They would have had to form a complete new company to sell saws and some "legal eagle" would do enough digging and find out whom actually owns the company and......lawsuit.
Any table saw manufactured prior to the release of the "SawStop technology" patent would/will be exempt from liability. That's how it works.
I am a retired shop teacher with 40+ years and one finger is shorter because of a table saw accident, my fault. Bought 2 for my school shop and one for myself. It is the best saw of all the brands and I have used most of them. Good video and yes it is worth the extra cost. That one accident was 40,000 plus in medical bills.
I live in Australia so when I cut the end off my finger with a table saw the medical treatment was essentially free. The sawstop is still good value for money though! I would pay many times the cost to not have had that accident.
Felder has something similar on their high end saws, if the blade comes into contact with your finger it will drop the blade below the surface of the table. There is no cartridge to change just a reset button. I only wish this was available as an optional extra on there lower end saw as I would have chosen it.
I have a dewalt 7480 job site, I just scored a large 3hp delta for 300$. It has a t square lock, 10” blade. It’s amazing. Cast iron extensions. Huge upgrade for me.
Back when Sawstop initially petitioned the CPC, as you mentioned in the video, ticked me off because as you said it really would have forced everyone to buy their technology because it was the only thing out there. This in itself made me say, nope. And honestly, my 22 year old Delta Unisaw is still a beast even as dangerous as it is... and I won't replace it. If I did, it wouldn't be a Sawstop. I'm not convinced that Bosch would have been allowed to sell their product if the CPC mandated that safety feature. Sawstop is first and foremost a bunch of attorneys pretending to care about safety when in fact they ultimately just care about dollars. I think what they did by coming out with their own lineup is perfect. You let the market sort out where they prioritize that feature.
This. Aside from my own personal view of too many safety features and you'll start relying on them become a less safe woodworker. The moment they tried to force people to buy their product is some drug dealer business shit. fucking shark ass lawyers.
Matt, I really appreciate these deep dives! You definitely did your homework on this one, and I appreciate your honesty with your feelings toward SawStop! I think I agree with you for the most part, that SawStop should not be punished for making great technology and making some money off of it. They gave plenty of opportunities to other companies to get in on it, and no one took them up.
However, I also believe peoples’ fingers, hands, livelihoods, and even lives are valuable! If someone has a job they need to do, but can’t afford to spend Thousands of dollars for this technology, are their hands not worth saving? Is it not worth it to save a child that trips and falls onto a saw?Also, I do have a small problem with SawStop’s unwavering protection of the patent: it doesn’t allow for innovation by other companies. My vague understanding of the technology is that it relies on differences in conductivity to stop the sawblade, but it can’t be used with wet materials or metal... if SawStop had released the patent from the beginning, maybe there could have been improvements made that could make the saws even safer! And maybe it could already be in other saws, not just table saws. And possibly, having the technology widespread could allow it to become more efficient to make and thus less expensive... There’s lots of maybe’s in there lol!
I’m not giving you a hard time, just expressing frustration with the whole situation.
You can saw wet wood you just have disable the system temporarily to make the cuts. When your done with those cuts and turn the saw off it automatically goes back to safe again. Know your equipment and ins and outs before you use it.
@@johnseavey6622 Yes you’re right, and I know the saw can technically cut wet wood after disabling the system, but I was just saying that if SawStop had shared the patent from the beginning, perhaps improvements might have been made in the technology that could tell the difference between wet wood, metal, and flesh... so in that imaginary world, maybe the system could stay on while cutting wet, nail-embedded wood...
I don't disagree with you, but it's just as fair to say "If the major table saw manufacturers had just bought the technology from the beginning there could have been improvements..."
Developing the tech cost SawStop money, releasing it for free would have been financial suicide. As another viewer pointed out, a seat belt is a small relatively inexpensive part of a car. In SawStop's case the tech was their entire product.
@@ST-0311 yep that’s true. I should have phrased it better. It’s definitely not all on SawStop. I think I’m mostly just complaining lol...
Great video. I also own the 3hp PCS and over and above the safety feature it’s an amazing machine. I noticed you mentioned the pharmaceutical industry which I work in and generic pharmaceutical companies fight to get the rights for drugs coming off of patents. I think the main difference between the two industries is regulations and oversight. Even the car industry is regulated by the government. In my opinion open sourcing the saw stop technology would lead to their manufactures trying to make it cheaper and less reliable which in turn would give saw stop a bad name. I think saw stop did what they had to do to prevent the technology from being adulterated. The whole point of a safety feature is that it works. In order to ensure it works saw stop needs to maintain control over the technology. I’m not rich and I own a saw stop because I know good value. Take away the safety feature and the machine is second to none. To many times people confuse low price for good value. Always remember only a rich man buys cheap tools.
Excellent discussion. I know there are other power tools that are just as dangerous, but if we can make all table saws have the same or similar flesh sensing technology, then we can make our craft safer for all, especially for the new woodworker.
not just flesh. The brake will fire if the blade touches any metal in the wood that may be hidden, or if the wood is wet. Anything material or substance that can conduct electricity or an electrical charge will cause the brake to function.
Very good summarization. I agree... they tried, nobody wanted it, so they had to do whatever it took to get safer saws out there on the market. Also, I love your t-shirt.
correction, they had to do what it took to earn money from the invention. If they were just doing whatever it took to get safer saws on the market, they would have licensed it for free.
I think many people would agree that the safety technology is awesome but the price tag for their saws are almost double to their competition. So consumers are forced to make the decision if they want the safety feature they would need to spend double the amount of money
Might have been commented already, but, looking at the high end sliding tablesaws by felder and altendorf, scm too i believe, they all have a simular system to the bosch. Drops the blad very fast. Great thing about that is that you dont ruin the blade and you dont need a cartridge, which can be quite expensive on a larger sliding saw (large expensive blades and very powerfull motors). My next slider will have this system too 😊
I own three saw stop table saw. I'm grateful for this technology. I do high end residential and commercial millwork instations we had one accident in the last ten years that resulted in less than 20 minutes of downtime production. We changed the cartridge and blade back at work. The individual that hit his had on the job has over 20 years experience is a master carpenter. He the ordered a sawstop for his personal use..
If I remember correctly when the idea was first conceived, they tried to market it as an upgrade kit that could be added to virtually any table saw. I seem to recall a couple of articles in woodworking magazines at that time. As I started getting older I knew that my focus and reaction time would likely begin to decline so I used some of the money from my inheritance to purchase a Sawstop about five years ago and have been extremely happy with it.
I wonder if an upgrade kit could be installed on non-SS saws. If it were reasonably priced, I would buy it to add to my Bosch job site saw.
@@marshallmurrell4583 The origin of Saw Stop was just that, it was something that could be installed on other table saws. They tried licensing it to tool companies to use in production so it would not have to be an aftermarket purchase and they were told to kick rocks. So they made their own table saws.
Great video! I agree with your conclusion. And I think if the lawyers and insurance companies didn’t rule the world we would have this tech available on other saws as an upgrade option.
Great video. As a new woodworker, this has been a stopping point for my progress. I know that I need the extra safety due to lack of experience, but it's also pretty pricey. Because it's so pricey, I have just stopped my journey. Thanks for sharing.
Better to spend the money you can earn more of, than to lose the finger you cannot afford to replace. :)
@@mrgunn2726 For real!
Great video and thank you for all the information. My only question is why did you use video of someone using the table fence and miter gauge at the same time? Isn't that a pretty basic no-no?
My first question when I saw a SawStop saw soon after they came out was, "but is it a good Table Saw?" Turns out it is. Imagine how hard it was to get them manufactured from a cold start. Imagine what would have happened if they had made a poor quality saw to house their patent. They had to get it right.
Not only that, but once you get above the benchtop or job site saw level it doesn't cost any more to buy a SawStop of equivalent features and quality (except the blade braking of course).
Matt, exactly. SawStopis a great machine believe. I was shopping for a SawStop and actually ended up buying a Harvey cabinet saw. I haven't cut my finger on this saw but wish I had stuck with my surch of SawStop. I would trade in a heartbeat Brother!
Worthy of a Change Home Improvements
This in an interesting story that has been playing out for the last twenty-some years. I think you did a good summary of what I observed over those years. I think sawstop did a really good job. You can't fault them for getting what they believed in out in a great product that people like (not only for the safety feature, but for the complete saw). They have done well with that. I do feel that they missed a even greater opportunity to lower their asking price of their royalties and get a couple of manufacturers on board. Then the others would have had to come around and the volume would have given them more financial gain and more do good cred. However I wasn't in the room, so I don't really know what the holdups were (it feels like sawstop was greedy, but that may be spin). Another aspect of this may be that the existing manufacturers might have been more worried about the liability for saws that they had already sold -- if that is the case only a new saw company could feel safe deploying this technology.
The only time I've ever gotten hurt on a tablesaw was because of kickback. I'd used an old cheap table saw that did not have a riving knife and a piece of wood with a knot in it tried to close back up as the blade cut it. I got a bruise on my stomach,and bout messed my pants. Good safety practices and not working when tired or mentally occupied are the best safety features you have.plan your cuts and even go through the motions prior to actually cutting. If you're in doubt,find another way.
Even most accidents that sawstop protects against are preventable. Using a blade guard is way up there on the list. That said I still bought a Sawstop to prevent future inattentive me from making a simple, life changing, stupid mistake.
Thank you for all the time and research you put into this video. Definitely a tough subject. It's really hard to choose a side, although I do think they are price gouging. You can buy a really nice Harvey for $2300 or a Sawstop for $3500. Most people can't afford that.
It cost me $23000 for e r and surgery on my thumb . If I had ben told in a dream or something you will cut a chunk of your thumb off tomorrow I would gladly spent $ 3600 the next day before work and saved my thumb it will never be the same again. How can you not afford it.
I certainly feel bad about your situation, I can't even imagine what you went through. But, I only own a $400 bosch contractor table saw, because that is all I can afford. I'm not going to quit woodworking because I can't afford a Sawstop.
@@johnseavey6622 In America we have a terrible patent system, and horrible healthcare... One way, or another, we're gonna get screwed.
Once you get above the entry-level saws a SawStop is no more expensive that competitive saws of similar quality. Unless you are looking for a Jobsite or benchtop saw you won't pay a premium for the SawStop one.
How does that price compare to a comparably sized/equipped PowerMatic or other name brand which does not have the safety technology?
Great video. Your summation was very good and detailed. I think SawStop did everything they could to license to existing companies and when no one was interested to use the system for various reasons felt strongly enough to build it themselves.
I was in the market for a saw not long after SawStop came out. I considered SawStop. But I had a friend who worked at a woodworking store and had a SawStop himself. A couple of comments from him about false shutdowns and having to buy new blades, etc, led me to buy a different brand. What I didn’t know at the time was one occasion was with pressure treated wood, another was wood that had unknowingly got damp and triggered the blade. Meaning you should always check the moisture content, etc… If I had that additional information I would have bought the SawStop at the time and made sure I had spares on hand.
And the saw stop has a bypass mode, although I’m not sure if it had a bypass mode back when you almost bought one.
I was on a job and our foreman was ripping mdf, on 2 occasions the safety mechanism was triggered. Scared the crap out of him. Still, when I’m ready to buy another table saw it’ll be a saw stop.
Great research! Funny how corporations think. In hindsight, we all wish that this was available in all products.
I'd love the Bosch version. Imagine not having to buy a cartridge every time, too.
This is when the patent system fails. A company comes up with something even better, but it gets suppressed. But that's also why patents expire. I'm sure Bosch will have those back on shelves the day after the patents expire.
But the next problem is that it's become too easy for companies to very slightly tweak a patent to restart the clock. Drug makers do the same thing.
Wait, doesn't the cartridge only need to be replaced after it triggers and preventing an accident?
@@shadowolf45 Bosch just goes under the table and spins down. There is no braking cartridge. I believe they used their knowledge/experience with automotive air bags to develop that portion of the technology.
The "problem" I have with SawStop isn't that they hold the patent or that they make the product and what not. It's clearly a great product and it saves a lot of fingers. The problem is that they took advantage of the patent to get the Bosch Reaxx taken off the market. They use different systems to accomplish different things. Basically making it now impossible for the markedly BETTER systems to come to the US. In Europe they have the capacitive drop system that doesn't damage the blade nor does it require a cartridge, and the blade can be reset quickly to continue your work. We have maybe another year before the final patent drops off, and I have no doubt other companies will come in and implement some version of a blade dropper, so we'll see what comes then.
As for the requirement to add their specific system, it's just not possible. They would have to make the product free to license out. I do think after all the patents expire, that the govt will take another look and make it a requirement once all manufacturers have an option to include in their saws.
Now saying all that, the SawStop is still the only Saw I would consider because I don't quite like Laguna or Powermatic, and their isn't enough data on Harvey.
If they didn't sue Bosch, they would "abandon" the patents, opening even more possible patents of theirs considered to be abandoned. So, they did exactly what you should be doing with patents.
The Reaxx was a clear violation of flesh-sensing patent and an attempt to avoid paying royalties to SawStop. They lost the case because while they did sufficiently change the blade-braking method to avoid violating the patent (Bosch basically used seat belt tech to rapidly retract the blade below the table while SawStop dumps a capacitive charge into a fusible link holding a brake back under incredible tension), they still ripped off patents covering SawStop's flesh-sensing technology. Bosch deserved to lose.
@@PhoenixRevealed Since the flesh sensing tech is the patent that was violated, what about a thermal imaging sensor set below the blade insert detecting body heat in the area of the blade and activating a hydraulic disk brake to stop the blade? Since zero clearance inserts are made of plastic (Sensors would have a hard time thru metal) the imaging sensors could be set to activate the brake prior to contact with the blade avoiding injury.
This is a great video. I am also not a patent lawyer :) but my opinion is that the problem here is corporate fear of litigation, which can only be mitigated by changes in regulations. I think it's unreasonable that every manufacturer that wants to license this technology would need to put it in *every* saw or else risk being sued. Perhaps they could be required to offer it as an "option" on every saw, and then the buyer has the ability to decide. This would have some manufacturing cost, of course, to be selling 2 versions of every product (well, maybe just the low end ones). And then we'd have to decide as a society (i.e. "pass laws") that say you can't sue someone for your own choices. Auto manufacturers are clearly managing to deal with this, offering the best safety features only in their higher end vehicles, and it doesn't seem like they're constantly being sued (well, they are, but they always have been). The worst part of the "capitalistic mindset" is that it becomes clear that corporations' mandate is to do what is most profitable (while obeying the law), not to do what is "best" for customers. I realize it's not simple, and that there are slippery slopes no matter which way you go. But the EU seems to have made stronger regulations to protect citizens, even though it limits what corporations can do (and may place some burden on innovation). It's a value system difference. Thanks for making the video. You actually improved my opinion of SawStop :)
Great video and totally agree with your summary. Delta and others completely misjudged their ability to cover the royalty fees with a price increase while taking dominant marker share.
Yeah they missed by a mile. Think about how much more sawsto psaws are to comparable quality saws and the fact that the specific tech only adds maybe $300 in cost!
Great Video! One huge difference between Volvo and Saw Stop is that the seat belt is 1 single feature out of possible hundreds in an automobile. Whereas the blade stop is the feature that brought Saw Stop into existence. Without the blade stop mechanism there was no reason for Saw Stop to create it's own table saw. Now, at this point in time Saw Stop has probable earned a reputation for manufacturing an excellent even without the blade stop mechanism so when other companies are finally able to incorporate their, or another similar device it probably isn't going to hurt them.
I'm glad Saw Stop has failed, at least for now, to get congress to enact a law requiring other manufacturers to include this safety feature. To me that is pretty slimy!
The reason I did not buy a Sawstop, even though they are less than fifty miles away from my shop, is that the table saw would be the only piece of equipment that has this technology. After forty fiive years of woodworking I still have all my fingers , because I respect the power of the tools. I am no physiologist, but for me they should all have this technology or none. Love your videos, keep up the good work.
^ this. When they try to make it mandatory, the potential risk for lawsuits against all other tools is untenable. And, I don't want to train kids or co-worker that it's OK to stick your finger in _this_ tool, but not _that_ tool.
Any tips on projects for a beginner to work on to build a variety of skills?
When you logic it out though, the mechanism and physics required to stop and disappear a blade works on a table saw and doesn’t on other sawing form factors. A bandsaw has too much momentum in the blade for a brake to stop it instantly, a mitersaw, same. You must have a strong frame and a deck to instantly lower a roaring mass of steel.
Also, a seatbelt lowers your risk in a majority of collisions, but there are scenarios where it actually increases risk. But just because something doesn’t mitigate all risk doesn’t mean there is not value in using it to mitigate some risk.
@@JeremyElliott I wonder if a bandsaw could have a mechanism to simply cut the blade as it comes off the upper wheel and also before the lower one, while also grabbing the piece between. Then the wheels could spin but the piece of blade touching the body part easily stopped.
@@MrStrizver you wouldn't need to cut the blade. you could just have the wheels themselves expandable and under spring tension, so that they only engage the blade when they're expanded. when the signal is received, the wheels could be instantly contracted in diameter, disengaging the blade. but... shhh lol
I love my SawStop saws. Game changers. It’d be great if the technology could be adapted for other large equipment like bandsaws or mitre saws.
My dad cut his hand in half many years ago on his (now mine) old Craftsman 113, I'm sure he wished sawstop was around then. Luckily Dr's fixed him up and hand good as new.
Their product their choice. Support them 100%.
Excellent evaluation and discussion of the SawStop technology and patents. SawStop was absolutely correct in protecting its invention and offering t up to others for a fee. Additionally, had SawStop not tried to sell the technology to others it would have been derelict in its duty to try and maximize value for its shareholders. I am a SawStop owner and user
Excellent review of a very complicated history. I am not sure there is much to be done about the regrettable fact that this technology is not part of every powered saw sold anywhere. What I do hope is the story of this invention, and the Volvo example, might be remembered when other safely products are being offered for licensing. Yes, everyone wants to maximize their return, but what we are not privy to in this story is what exactly the individuals making the decisions had as their priorities. And yes, it would be very interesting to know where saw safety would be today if Ryobi had put this technology into their saws. Thanks for this video.
There also is Felders approach with PCS which is contactless and without damage to the blade or cartridge
SawStop deserves all the profits. They invented it, tried to get the "industry" to switch to it and they didn't take advantage of situation. As a woodworker I would have paid the higher price for it. My shop teacher almost cut his arm off when I was in Jr. High school I'm sure he would have taken advantage of the technology had it been available. My son purchased an older Craftsman saw and almost took off two fingers. Myself, I "touched" the blade of my Rigid saw and I can confirm it hurts like the dickens! Several years later and if I touch my thumb where it happened just right it stings, messed up the nerves I suppose. It literally was just the width of the blade, 1/8" and less than a 1/4" of an inch deep less than a inch long and I had blood everywhere. I haven't/didn't purchase a SawStop because of price and I thought I would never be dumb enough to get close enough to the blade of my Rigid. Complacency can get you hurt. I am now saving up for a SawStop, I just need to figure out how to sneek it into my shop without the wife figuring it out LOL. Thanks for the info and sharing your talent with us all! Stay safe
Derek - I wrote this (above) to "tuesboomer": If spouses whose other half uses a non-Sawstop, they are smart to insist their other half will not use it if home alone - as the first scenario above has a good chance of the woodworker not making it (surviving)! I know of at least one couple that have made that agreement! Smart folks - better safe than sorry. I bet you wifey will INSIST you have a SS if she sees the brochures and watches a live demo in a store! Take her to one.
Great Video, one thing that could play into your video is the fact that since July 2017 SawStop has been owned by TTS Tooltechnic Systems Holding AG (Germany), which also owns Festool.
I was already aware of the SawStop history and patent issues (I believe their patents all finish in 2024). In the next six months, I'll be upgrading my old Rigid saw to a Sawstop; the difference in cost is nothing compared to the co-payments on health insurance (which can't be counted on the fingers of two hands, even if they're all remaining). My only concern is, do I give my old Rigid to my son, or do I trash it completely so that nobody else is in danger from it?
It is my understanding that if a fingertip or hot dog touches the. Lane the saw is destroyed, true or false?
the additional cost per unit just isn't the 8% licensing fee, it's also the cost of adding the flesh sensing mechanism to the machine.
Agree with you, SawStop thanks for making a safer machine. I bought the baby SawStop because I thought the technology was worth the extra cost. Could have bought two other saws for the same price but decided my personal safety as a beginning hobbyist was worth it.
Great presentation ! I for one would rather have the safety of use and pay a little more than lose any physical parts !! Be safe !😎
Great video. I wish the the flesh sensing technology was in all saws. Eventually it would become standard and more affordable.
Thank you for an informative non biased coverage of this invention and patent issues from all sides. Well done sir. America would be better off if all and I mean all news sources used this approach. Again very well done. I’m impressed.
Thank you kindly
@@731Woodworks your welcome. Just one of the things I like about your channel. Your reviews are real and informed based on experience and research. This video was far and way as proven by other comments exemplary in execution. It showed the time you put into it. Keep up the good work for wood workers in all levels of our journey.
I bought a cheap table top saw when I needed one to rebuild my fire place. Not having used one before and not being a You Tube consumer at the time I was extremely surprised when I suffered what could have been a life threating kick back (part of the 2x4 I was ripping wound up imbedded in the garage wall). The after the fact research I did led me to buying a SawStop cabinet machine. Having made what could have been a catastrophic mistake on my first attempt to use a table saw has made me more appreciative of any safety measure that I can implement. The peace of mind that I get from using the SawStop is worth the extra money.
Excellent presentation. Very valid points. SawStop tried hard...current owners, maybe not quite as much. As I get older, with the kids grown and out on their own, I have already decided I will replace my current saw with a SS. With the kids coming home and needing to do projects, I will pay what it takes to have the SS tech as a backup to drastically reduce the chances of anyone being seriously injured whenever they are in my shop. Couldn't live with myself otherwise.
With many woodworkers getting close to retirement age (or there already) - there's a good chance they will be working alone in their shop/basement (no one else home).
Now - imagine they do not have a Sawstop and that accident happens - thumb & fingers mangled and or cut off. Woodworker goes into shock almost immediately! Do they have a phone CLOSE by? Able to make a call to 911? Likelihood of surviving this scenario? Not favorable!
Swap their saw out for a Sawstop - same scenario. Hand makes contact with blade. Woodworker looks at his "wound" (a small nick that he'll put to his mouth and think "WOW! GLAD I have a SS!!!)
Then he thinks "Crap - there goes my $200 blade and a $100 brake!" Then the other side of brain kicks in telling him: "Hey DUMBASS! At least you have all your digits; your not going into shock; and don't need to call 911 or undergo many painful and expensive surgeries! Now go change your shorts and come back, change the blade & brake, and get back to work!!"
I MUCH prefer the latter scenario. If spouses whose other half uses a non-Sawstop, they are smart to insist their other half will not use it if home alone - as the first scenario above has a good chance of the woodworker not making it (surviving)! I know of at least one couple that have made that agreement! Smart folks - better safe than sorry.
I'm curious when the collection of patents will be up. I imagine there are a few that were all filed within a few years of each other meaning it shouldn't be many more years before they all expire. Any company or person bringing more safety to tools and machines has my thanks!
Biesenmeyer gave up their patent on the T-style fence used in most good table saws today, because it cost them too much to defend it. They sold out to Delta and went down with the Delta ship. By the way, it does hurt to stick your finger in the blade, and the system is still active when the blade is coasting down.
Sort of a sidenote on the conversation but the patent for Insulin was sold for a single dollar back in the 1920s by Dr. Frederick Banting. I was taught that in school but a quick google search showed this quote "Insulin does not belong to me, it belongs to the world.” Either way it is an interesting story for anyone who is interested, or has diabetic in their family.
I agree he gave them all a chance in the beginning at this technology and they ignored it , great article . i was wondering about the patent on saw stop and other saw companys would be able to adapt the safety feature , sounds like its going to be a long time for that to happen .
I'm surprised almost no one talks about the felder pcs system. Since you talked about ryobi almost licensing sawstop's technology, I thought you would would talk about whether felder did. felder implemented the preventive contact system that does not require any replaceable cartridges. If the system gets activated, you can go back to working immediately. Granted these saws run in the tenths of thousands of dollars, but they are amazing!
Yeah I wish I could get a saw stop to replace the jet I have now. Its a full size saw so its rather expensive to make the switch. I take my time and really put thought into what Im doing because the table saw still scares the heck out of me.
I completely agree with you. SawStop did the right thing and has gained my respect after your very clear explanation. Thanks for that! (Still wish I could afford their table saw, though! Maybe someday....)
We need links to t shirts you wear. Thank you for the spreading the Message in subtle ways.
As a woodworker who has just recently achieved the ability to really expand on this hobby I am looking at this table saw as an addition to my shop tools. As far as your question I am firmly in SawStops camp of licensing their invention. I would add that the manufacturers could have added this as an option to their lower end tool lines and I believe that would have been enough to prevent the liability cases. I'm not a lawyer and I don't pay one on TV but I do know that the automotive industry has been doing the "options" thing for decades and has never been successfully sued.
Matt, I believe your very thoughtful review on this has one significant shortcoming. You rightly say that the SawStop is more expensive, but that doesn’t adequately cover it - the SawStop CNS at $2,214 is OVER TRIPLE THE PRICE of the equivalent competitor Delta 36-725T2 at $699!!!
Like you, I don’t at all begrudge SawStop for charging a premium for their terrific innovation - they richly deserve to profit from it. But at 317% of an equivalent saw, they’re gouging. And I absolutely begrudge that.
Pricing as of 4/20/23 before sales tax:
Delta: $699, no add-ons (wheeled base included), pick it up at Lowes.
SawStop: $1,979 base model plus $235 for wheeled base = $2,214.
Shipping: It can get even worse. If you don't have a Rockler (or maybe Woodcraft?) store nearby where you can buy the SawStop in person, you'll get hit with the same HEFTY $250 shipping charge from any of SawStop or Rockler or Woodcraft. That would bring it to over 350% of the equivalent Delta picked up at Lowes. Lowes will ship the Delta to me in Indianapolis for $79.
Thank you for the insight, just what I was looking for. But hey, why did you move the bat on the toolbox?
Another absolutely great video Matt love watching your channel and everything you do Thanks
Thanks 👍
Couldn’t sawstop add the tech so you could add it to your machine? Or is that not a viable option?
The Sawstop portable you have is about $900. A similar Dewalt is $400. Is the only difference the protective device?
Just wondering… as far as a table saw besides the safety technology, is it the best tablesaw on the market?
Thank you for doing the research and nuancing my views on this matter.
I haven't watched the video yet, but isn't the patent up for public domain soon?
I lost the tip of my thumb on a ryobi saw just this past April. I haven’t been able to use it since and every time I look at it I get this feeling of dread. I’m not sure I’ll ever be able to bring myself to use a non sawstop table saw ever again. I’m currently saving up for one for when I’m cleared to begin working in the shop again. I think sawstop is right to protect their patent and they did say that they would release their blade brake patent for free if the cpsc mandates the use of blade brakes in all table saws, which I think is huge of them. I’ve heard some arguments that doing so would price hobbyists out of the space but I personally think that is a cop out. In today’s economy, saving up $500-$800 for a saw is doable. I’m doing that right now. And the replacement brake cartridges are chump change compared to the cost of a surgical amputation after severe trauma to the soft tissue and bone. I think the saw manufacturers need to stop worrying about litigation and start thinking about their customers. Ryobi, dewalt, delta, and every other saw manufacturer out there has lost my potential business after my injury because none of them is currently utilizing a blade brake of any kind in any of their saws. Mind you, most of my shop is made up of ryobi products. Before my injury, I was considering getting a larger table saw and ryobi was in the running for that upgrade. Now, they’ve lost my business and my only choice is sawstop. By not paying that licensing fee, they cost themselves the chance to sell me another saw and if/when they finally add it to their saws, I will need irrefutable proof that it is at least as good and as reliable as sawstop before I buy another table saw from them. Cheers 🍻