Real Lawyer Reacts to SawStop's Patent Myths
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2024
- When will SawStop's patent expire? I've read that they are expiring next year. The problem with that is, I've read that every year for 4 or 5 years now. I wanted to uncover the truth about the SawStop patent situation so I talked to a real life patent attorney about this.
Email Michael Steel Patent Attorney Here: wood@tarolli.com
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0:00 SawStop Patents Expiring?
0:50 Patent Attorney Introduction
2:49 Different types of patents
4:08 What Patents does SawStop Have?
4:58 How long do patents last?
6:59 What year did SawStop get their patent?
7:39 Does TTS Own SawStop Patents?
8:57 How Long Can SawStop Control their Technology?
9:33 SawStop vs Bosch Reaxx
11:10 Is SawStop a Patent Troll?
14:41 Should Saw Companies Use SawStop Tech?
15:37 Cheap Table Saw Safety
16:33 Company Liability Using SawStop Tech
17:17 How do You Get a Patent?
18:37 Product Protection before getting a Patent
19:17 Festool Domino Patent Expiring?
20:30 No US Patent, Can Someone Else Make a Domino?
22:19 Knockoff Tools vs Real
24:09 Dangers of Outsourcing Tool Manufacturing in China
25:24 Protected by Trade Dress under the Law
26:35 What Company will be First to Compete with SawStop Tech
29:00 What About the Shaper Shirt?
29:32 Contact a Patent Attorney
29:54 What Woodworking Projects Do You like Building? 
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So... can we still get the new parts/ brake part??
You are correct, but a non-publication request is not commonly issued. There must be a serious reason (e.g. national security) not to publish.@@path4061
This video has exceeded my expectations. Like your guest who is a patent attorney who wants to talk about his hobby in work's context I'm an info deeeb who was also excited about the topic... this was a fascinating discussion. Well done! 👊
What a great conversation! Thank you Mr. Steele, and thank you Matt for having him on and being prepared with a great set of questions. 👍
Fabulous video!! As a retired attorney but having no expertise in patent law this was a joy to watch. Even in retirement I try to learn something new every day. This more than made my quota!
sawstop is a predatory scummy company and shouldn't have that broad of a patent, or at the least, they should be made to offer a reasonable percentage for other saws to use the tech. truly evil company that has caused millions of unnecessarily amputated limbs.
This was AWESOME! Very informative. I sincerely appreciate the effort to bring this to your viewers. Thank you!
I would bet that every top end company Dewalt, Milwaukee, Makita, already have some version of the SawStop already made. They are just waiting for patents to end.
Agreed.
Matt, thanks for being perceptive enough to know this content would appeal to your audience. This was time well spent!
This is something I have wondered about. Glad to see you get a professional who could help answer this.
What an awesome, knowledgeable session from two men of outstanding integrity. Thank you both.
Much appreciated!
One of the most informative Woodworking videos I've watched on RUclips in quite a while!
Thank you BOTH for doing this!
PS: I own a SawStop and have the first Blade/Cartridge weld combination mounted on the wall where I can see it every time I work with the Saw! I was fortunate it was a cheap blade!
Great interview and conversation. I learned a lot about trademarks, manufacturing overseas, and the future of table saws.
This was an excellent conversation and Michael did the subject much justice... thanks for having him on your channel.
The U.S. patent system is actually one of the unique (at the time of implementation) cornerstones that set the U.S. apart in the field of tech development from the rest of the world, catapulting it far ahead of other countries. Having a patent has been wrongly bashed as a greedy move, when in fact it was intended to 1) encourage innovation 2) allow the expense of developing the tech and then bringing it to market to be recouped AND rewarded. AND another beautiful aspect to the patent system is that it's limited, so the patent holder cannot sit on the tech in perpetuity, but it gets released to others so that access becomes cheaper for everyone (at least it's more likely to).
My late uncle was a prominent patent atty. in Seattle for ~50 years, from the 1960's to the early 2000's.
You just earned another subscriber, but NOT due to your goofy, click-bait expressions on your thumbnails... you're better than that. 😉
The patent process is actually in the US Constitution and was a great innovation for the day. The patent type that is most abused is the business process patent. Most of those are contra to the original idea of patents.
I have a friend that designs electronic equipment. He had a version of one of his products made in China. The knockoffs, which were made on the same assembly line using his design but with much cheaper components, were available within days of his high quality product. That was the one and only time he sent stuff to China. He’s stuff is now built in California at a higher price but without cheap knockoffs.
I can confirm that this indeed happens, also for (very) large companies outsourcing production, but typically owning the specific tools (moulds) for their design.
BPP's are, of course, the most difficult to enforce, and lack of geographic proximity (not to mention an unfriendly legal system in the infringer's geographic location) makes it all the more difficult. And it requires deep, deep pockets to pursue an infringement claim even in the friendliest legal environment.
Great video, very informative! Thanks for the time you put into this, Matt.
Matt, this is a great video. Keep up with the great videos and thanks again to Michael Steele for providing his time and expertise in this area. Hopefully, other saw manufacturers will figure out a way to use this technology once the patents expire.
Great content, very informative on a topic that’s continually brought up on many platforms and content channels.
FANTASTIC VIDEO!!! Learned a ton from this. Would love to see more like this. Keep up the awesome work man!
Thanks!
This is a great video, thank you both for taking the time to put this together!
Our pleasure!
Matt, thanks for making this video. It was quite interesting. It’s always interesting listening to someone that is very knowledgeable in their field, even patent law, Lol.
Very interesting video, I appreciate both of you for creating this space and sharing this insight.
Thank you for this presentation. This was a very informative show. Please keep up the great work with your investigative initiative.
Thank you! Will do!
If i was ever serving on a jury for a lawsuit about someone who got hurt using a tablesaw. The only way i would reward damages is if the user was actually following the proper user operation of the saw when they where hurt. IE the user was using a guide, and the the table saw exploded.
Excellent video interview. Loved the topic. Great job.
The most entertaining woodworking video I've seen in months!! Oddly enough, I didn't end up wanting to buy a new tool 😅
I’m pretty convinced I am not the only person in North America that is sick and tired of junky knockoffs that you cannot get repair parts for when they inevitably conk out prematurely. Thanks for the work you guys do.
See, with this video you just plain got me interested in your channel. Excellent content. Keep up the great work.
Welcome aboard!
Great review thanks for taking the time on this it was educational for us all.
This was an excellent episode thanks to you both.
This was a cool deep dive into SawStop and patents! Thank you for sharing!
Great conversation Matt. Thank you for doing this. It was very interesting.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Since you have the festool, it's common practice to place patent numbers on the label or in the documentation, so you might find the us patent number there.
I've been waiting for this video! Thank you for doing this.
Hope you enjoyed it!
@731Woodworks Absolutely! I haven't purchased a Table Saw, so this is very helpful in making decisions on a purchase, delaying purchase etc.
Great interview and nice overview of patents, especially the "look" of a product with all of the knockoffs. Alterndorf's technology is great but it would be very difficult to scale down - this would be great for industrial purposes, but cameras aren't cheap and the mechanism needs to be sorted out.
Wasn;t sure if I would like this one, but it was very interesting as well as informative. Thanks for putting it together.
Very good non-woodworking, woodworking video! A lot of info, will probably be back several times to watch it again!
Like everyone else I've been hearing for the last several years about the patents are about to expire on the Sawstop but here we are heading towards the end of 2023 and most of them seem to be hanging on.
Interesting about the US patent for the domino too. There almost has to be one hiding out or there would be a knock-off on the market a long time ago.
I'm guessing there is no USA patent on the Domino because of the cost and time required to get it. Festool just decided it was not worth it. Because to make a Domino requires a lot of money and machinery expertise. Its not simple. And any patent infringer would be limited to the USA only. Because Festool does have a patent on the Domino in Europe. I assume the Domino is only sold in rich parts of the world. The profitability for making a Domino copy and only being able to sell it in the USA only would not work. The Domino is $1000 or $1500. A knockoff sold only in the USA would need to be sold at half price lets say. $500 or $750. Are there enough sales in the USA at that reduced copy price to make it profitable for the maker? Probably not. Its not like there are millions and millions of people in the USA who would buy the copy Domino. Of the 330 million people in the USA, there are not that many woodworkers really. 1 in 100? 1 in 200? 1 in 300? So there are maybe 1 million woodworkers in the USA. How many of those would buy a Domino at any price? They already bought a Festool Domino. How many of the ones left will buy a Domino copy at half price?
Great interview! You just made all of us richer...not the least of whom is Mike!
Thank You for doing this video!!! Well done. One thing I wish you had asked him, is how much does a patent application cost and how much the process could run $$ wise. I know it probably varies but how and why.
Great conversation. Thanks to both of you for producing that video. I own a SawStop and more Festools than I should. The logic that works for me to invest in a tool like them is - "this is the last tool like that I will ever need to buy".
Except Festool doesn't make the best tools. So you're likely to need to buy another anyway.
Never said they were the best. The main problem I have with Festool is they cater to their main customers professional, mobile carpenters not hobbyists with a shop. So, everyone can make up their own mind - if don't think they are worth don't buy them.@@frijoli9579
This was an outstanding video, and I enjoyed the discussion.
Thanks guys. Appreciate the time and effort
An interesting topic like this is the multitool. Originally patented as a cast saw. Before the patent ran out, companies had their version ready to hit the market as soon as it expired. Tool companies will have their version of sawstop ready the day it ends
Sawstop is not a troll because they have an actual product.
They're Mr. Monopoly instead haha.
The only thing they did that I disagreed with in protection was going after the Bosch saw. Way different technology not even close to being the same.
I understand they could because that’s the law, I don’t understand why the law is written that way.
@@Andrew_Sherman Totally agree! I'm still bitter about it haha! I was so ready to buy the Bosch when it came out it was a game changer. I think it scared SawStop because they created something that didn't destroy the blade. Which killed another revenue source SawStop has (the carts (and blades if people buy their blades from them too) ) - I really hope Bosch brings it back, coupled with a rack and pinion fence they would put a big rift in the jobsite / portable saw market.
@@MemelordSupreme I hope it comes back to! I’d be happier without the rack and pinion though (I know I’m in the minority).
@@MemelordSupremeYou are right. For awhile I told myself I would not buy a sawstop because of their actions against Bosch. The Bosch saw was a game changer in that the blade isn't destroyed and there is no cartridge to replace.
I ultimately bought a used sawstop because it was priced right. I would not have been able to afford it otherwise.
Getting back to your point, when a company has a monopoly on safety, everyone loses. You could lose your fingers in a table saw accident or lose a lot of your hard owned cash.
Actually, the Craftsman model no. TJZ10/3, was being redesigned to accept this technology. They pulled the saw from the market. It was supposed to have been built at the Texas plant that closed. They may well release it after the patent expires. Great video. Thank you for sharing. Everyone stay safe, happy and healthy. From Henrico County Virginia
Wouldn't surprise me. I wish the video answered this, but my understanding was that large companies start R&D on products 2-5 years before patents expire. I don't know if the patent would prevent them from doing R&D or just from selling the finished product.
Really awesome video!!
Have a few patents myself…. Your lawyer friend was absolutely right. And sounds like a stud patent attorney.
Badass!! I cannot thank you enough. I’d watch a show you guys digging through woodworking and tool patents and future projects… let’s start a woodworking R&D facility!!!!?!??
Mat, You have come a long way since you started with your channel. I have to say your doing great, You are a real go getter. Your mind just doesnt stop. Do you have time to even sleep.? What your doing takes alot of time and work. You have worked hard for what you have and its only going to get better. Your everywhere on the internet. Good luck with your channel and I can see its going to be a great success. maybe the number one woodworking channel on the internet with millions of followers. Your doing it right Mat.
Baller video. Thanks to both of you! Wicked awesome!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great video guys!... incredibly interesting & informative.
Thanks guys. Nice discussion. Felder has a blade stopping mechanism that doesn't seem to infringe on SawStops gear.
Yes. Using cameras and infrared :) it's way better.
@@DamianDArienzo But right now Felder is only offering its safety saw device on its very top end saws. Not the "cheap" Felder models or the extremely poor man's Hammer brand. So it will be many many years before it gets more adopted.
@@russellseaton2014 I'm aware :)
@@russellseaton2014 wish I had the poor man's hammer table saw :)
They have just released it on a couple of other saws, the cheapest being the Felder K945 i think, still not cheap though at around 10k euros plus VAT
Very professional conversation. Well spoken.
I got a friend who hurt himself two times on his saw. Almost lost his hand the second time. He is OK now. When he was in the hospital the second time, his wife got a locksmith and broke into his shop. Sold his saw and took that money and added some to it to get a Sawstop. She NEVER said a word to him about it. It was about a month after he got home that he decided to "go clean up". That's when he found out. He said when he asked her about it her response was "this wasn't going to be a negotiation so there was no reason to consult you." She got him the one size up from the one he wanted and 3 sets of the puck thing and blades.
Wish someone would break into my shop and upgrade it :)
@@BaalsMistress But do you want want the permanent injury that caused it? I know I don't. 🙂
@@ajosepi1976Oh no, just the upgrade please.
Stabbing myself with a flat screwdriver was painful enough. No power tool injuries please.
@@BaalsMistress 100% Agreed!
I was watching the demo video and my wife saw it and watched the rest of it with me. Apparently a saw stop is now the number one item on my to purchase list.
Excellent interview Matt. This was really interesting.
Eye-opening and informative! Thank-you.
Great video very informative and thanks to the patent attorney!!
Interesting discussion on intellectual property and patents. Thank you.
That was an excellent interview. Ty
It is a shame that Bosch lost their case. I have a Reaxx table saw. I tripped it one time. Not even a nick. Took longer to read the manual about how to flip the cartridge around than it did to actually make the change. Of course, no damage to the blade.
Thank you for this . Felder also has a system by the way.
Great job on this one.... I'm not even sure why RUclips recommended it, but that was an outstanding video.
Attorney Steele was great.
I lost the timestamp, but he did touch on something an insider had told me.... Uhhh, hypothetically, I mean... I can't discuss this... But my understanding (hypothetically) was that the SawStop people initially, the plan was to license it, or sell it outright, to a big took company, like Delta, or whoever.... But nobody would buy it. So they said fine, and just started their own tool company....
So I was pleased that Attorney Steele did confirm that..... so I feel pretty good about his research...
My only nitpick might have been this..... In the modern world, today, 2023, I know that competing products are sold in some overseas places.... So clearly their patents don't reach everywhere.... Or, they have determined that the cost to fight would be too high....... So I think that yes, when that patent expires, I think all the other big players literally will have the trucks rolling the night before, to put that product in the stores on 6AM following patent expiration.....
The other thing I would point out is, and I think Attorney Steele kind of walked around this issue talking about liability, and maybe he was uncomfortable, or maybe it was beyond the scope... But today, if you own a cabinet shop, and you have employees running table saws.... In many areas of the USA, many areas, you can't get workmans comp insurance, unless you throw out all your saws, and bring in SawStop.... These insurers, and look, they have Attorneys too, okay, I'm sure they see that okay hold on, if someone gets hurt, and goes to court.... SawStop EXISTS, right??? Why didn't the employer provide SawStop..... That is hard to defend in court, obviously.... You could have provided this much safer tool, and you didn't, because of money.....
So yeah.... When those patents expire, I expect that every saw sold will have some form of blade safety on it.....
Anyways, great job....
This is one of the most useful woodworking video I've seen in years
Thank you
Wow that was a great ,informative video. Thanks , watching you since 25,000 subs.
Awesome! Thank you!
EurekaZone EZ Smart was my favorite track saw system. Many innovative patented features. Hard to find now, as of 2020 it looks like they were reopening at a new location. They had some really cool stuff.
Thank you for sharing your faith with your shirts!
This was awesome. Thanks you both for doing this.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I like the idea of a blade that would drop down and away without the destruction of blade and safety device. It would also simplify the use of a dado blade.
I own a sawstop portable saw and it made me really nervous when I was sawing some very wet pressure treated lumber.
Brilliantly entertaining video ... thanks both.
Great information! Thanks gentlemen!
Hi Matt, I watched this video and you mentioned Shapeoko CNC Router so I checked it out, is there a 731 discount on orders from Shapeoko?
I see you’ve entered the “funny face” thumbnail phase. Very original. 😂
Hey Matt!! I don’t know if anyone brought up the Felder saw that also has a CS system as well. Its been out for a while now as well. THEN let us not forget that there is an alternative to all of these systems which, as you well know, is light years ahead of this 1800's technology...The Altendorf HandGuard saw...😊😊
How do you know a sawstop hater is mad at you?
They flip you off with their nub.
Good job Matt, very educational.
Great video! Thank you, Ron
I remember seeing a trade show RUclips video (this year) with a cabinet table saw with the blade drop technology along with a sliding deck. It was way out of my price range (at the moment) and larger than I currently have space for, but it was way cool!
Very interesting and informative. Thank you!
The risk of being sued for a product they made and sold decades ago caused a lot of harm to the makers of small airplanes. As technology advanced, survivors said the manufacturers should have recalled their older planes and installed the upgrades that are put into all their new ones. But people buy and fly airplanes that are 20-50 years old...a long time for a company to be at risk.
The effect was a 10-year period in which the companies all stopped making airplanes (Cessna, Piper, Beech). I can imagine something similar happening to the makers of table saws.
There's a subtle, but important difference. Aircraft come under what's called special liability. The theory being that a plane falling out of the sky can cause property damage or death or injury to someone that never was a beneficiary of the existence of that aircraft. This also applies to other things like backyard swimming pools and boilers etc (maybe cranes?).
This also means that the aircraft manufacturer can be held liable for "all foreseeable misuse". Essentially, even when there was pilot error held to be 90% at fault, or bad maintenance, the manufacturers could be on the hook for 100% of a judgement if there was a tiny amount of possibility that a safer design, material or process could have been found.
Love your shows, thank you.
Thanks for watching!
Really good stuff. Thnx for putting this together
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great questions and great answers!
Glad you enjoyed it!
In Europe Festool, Felder and Altendorf saws all have a version of a sawblade dropping. It would be interesting to see a comparison
Matt what about Felder . I saw your video on their sliding table saw.
“I am not your lawyer”. Hahaha. Every time.
They have to. Or they get sued by someone that said "but you told me this...."
Drinking game!
I saw a video on the BladeStop saw today. If that company can put their technology in a table saw that hobby woodworkers can afford, the BladeStop saw will leave SawStop in the dust.
For starters, when the BladeStop senses skin, the motor stops spinning immediately AND the blades retracts into the cabinet and below the table surface. As soon as you clear the area in question, you can turn the saw back on and continue with your saw action. No expensive parts to replace.
Personally, I think BladeStop company will be a game changer if they can put this technology into an affordable saw.
There are better systems and ones that use different technology, but SawStop have abused their patent to keep them off the market.
I'd be curious about if there's the possibility of an "upgrade kit" that'd be available for other company's saws once the patent does eventually expire. I've never seen the interior of a SawStop cabinet so I'm not sure how difficult installing something like that could be.
Pretty much impossible. The saw is built around the system.
@@homer009x I figured that might be the case
Great video. Very informative😊
Glad you liked it
That was very informative. Thank you.
Very interesting Matt. Learned a few things.
Glad it was helpful!
Interesting video. When the topic of the domino came up it made me wonder about the design aspect of the patent since it is similar to a biscuit joiner. I don't have a domino so there may be an obvious difference (in the basic design) that I'm not aware of. I guess the characteristics of the motor & cutting mechanism along with some gee whiz features could be proprietary but the housing and general method of use seems to be the same.
I have both a domino and a biscuit joiner. They work quite different. Mortisers have been around for a long time and are not unique so I suspect the patent on domino is the mechanism of making the slot mortise.
@@grahamstewart79I think you are correct. The Festool uses what’s effectively an end mill bit that swings from side to side. A biscuit slot cutter is just a spinning blade (correct me if I’m wrong), and a mortiser is an entirely different mechanism.
That Was a really great video. I would also agree with the lawyer in regards to the knock off tools.. I get woodpecker tools are a bit expensive , but if everyone buys the knock offs Woodpecker will cease to innovate and come out with cool and unique tool options.
Some are reasonable. I've got the cabinet shelf pin jig for $300 Cdn. It is very well made out of phenolic. I just wish their giant squares were a bit cheaper.
Nice guy Mr. Steele with the special knowledge and gravitas needed for this topic too bad there wasn't a discussion about what the words PATENT PENDING means. Ray Stormont
I highly recommend getting a patent agent or attorney if you want to get a patent. The process is complex, and it can be very expensive. The prospects of being able to assert your patent against infringers, if you are a solo inventor or small business, are slim. This is only worse if your patent is of low quality (hence needing the services of an agent or attorney).
Now what about the company Fein? I’m not even sure if they are still around but I believe they were the first to make the osolating tool. I think they called it the MultiTasker. Anyway they were the only one for quite some time and all of a sudden every tool make makes one.
when he said the inventor was a patent attorney himself i smiled ear to ear as i understood why he said it was the most thorough hed ever seen. just an example of someone that is damn good at their endeavors. everyone should strive to be that way, to excel beyond any expectations.
tldr: be the best you and dont stop till you reach that level in which people start talking about your creations like their on jerry springer lol.
If this is too long we are doomed lol.
@@darinpringle5611 Honestly if it can save many lives from changing due to an accident, I will give it to the world for free as long as no one tries to patent it themselves and they credit me as the creator.
Outstanding discussion. Thx
Great talk. So when does the Domino patent expire in Europe?
Thanks for this, it is defiantly food for thought.
Just imagine if the companies had all licensed the tech, the whole world would be a lot safer.
I agree with the attorney that companies will be forced to adopt this technology once the patents expire. I view this as unfortunate. I believe consumers should be able to choose a saw that does not have the technology and to be bound by the consequences of that choice. Besides the higher price of the saw, there are other costs associated with the technology that I would prefer to avoid. The brake triggers when the blade comes in contact with flesh, but it also triggers when the wood is too wet or the blade hits metal. That is, the technology is subject to false positives -- which can be fairly expensive events.
To prevent these false positives, the user can turn off the saw's brake. This creates two risks. The first is the user will forget to turn the brake off. The second is the user will forget to turn the brake back on. (The saw will automatically reset the brake to on after the saw has been turned off, which mitigates -- but does not eliminate -- this second risk.) In my shop, I view the costs associated with these two risks outweigh the benefit that the technology provides. I would feel differently if the saw were to be used in a school, or if a lot of people besides myself used my saw. I understand that the technology could save me from an injury. I also understand that the risk of such an injury -- given my years of daily use of a table saw in a furniture mill and my responsibility in teaching my co-workers how to use the saw safely -- is lower than the average DIY woodworker. I also know that I would simply forget to turn off the brake a few times each year. Shouldn't I be able to assume the risk of injury in exchange for avoiding the hassle and expense of having to replace the brake a few times each year?
I freely admit that my own assessment of the risks may be inaccurate. The risks that I might injure myself might be far higher than I think they are and that the 'best' choice for me would be a saw with this technology. My point is I should be the one who gets to make that call. I don't want the regulators or the courts to force a technology onto me that I do not want nor think that I need.
I love my Harvey Alpha tablesaw. Great saw that is smooth as butta. Love the fence system.
Really interesting content; Thanks!
VERY informative, excellent
I am a hobbyist woodworker...waiting for a "Domino" from another manufacturer...
interesting discussion. Wonder of these same arguments could be applied to gun safety? Electronic locks -- like locking your phone against unwarranted use -- and things like that?