Click "Read more" to see all of the links and tools referenced. Watch Next: Real Lawyer Reacts to SawStop Patent MYTHS: ruclips.net/video/EZ6yGis38R4/видео.html Tools in this Video: Table Saws I Have Used and Recommend: Budget Option 1 - amzn.to/3SfUdXc Budget Option 2 - amzn.to/3vGDKUj Mid Tier Option - www.lowes.com/pd/DELTA-Contractor-Saws-10-in-Carbide-Tipped-Blade-15-Amp-Table-Saw/1001385562 Best Table Saw I've Used - amzn.to/3U8ZIJW Push Block I Recommend for Safety - amzn.to/3OeCpug Table Saw Push Stick - amzn.to/3OfQOXg Hoodie I'm Wearing: www.glorifyhimgear.com/collections/frontpage Why He Matters: story4.us/731Woodworks Reference Documents and Videos: CPSC Minutes and Letters to Companies - www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/Comm-Mtg-Min-TableSaws-SupplementalNPR-Decisional.pdf?VersionId=JizUyNt5p7KDR_svKn2O6ql9VkHIR2E8 CPSC Proposed Rule: www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/11/01/2023-23898/safety-standard-addressing-blade-contact-injuries-on-table-saws CPCS Meeting: ruclips.net/video/X_lXewpfcZc/видео.htmlsi=mHLDEOc9lqHo6n6U Felder Group and SawStop Response Letters - www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/COPF%20Table%20Saw%20Comment%20Extension%20%20Statement.pdf?VersionId=qg77Xf6lj0wlswefq6wB.uYnqicUAPCp Email Chain from TTS (SawStop) www.regulations.gov/document/CPSC-2011-0074-1350 Felder Group Response to Commissioner Feldman - www.regulations.gov/document/CPSC-2011-0074-1364 All Supporting Documents related to CPSC Proposal on Table Saw Safety - www.regulations.gov/docket/CPSC-2011-0074/document?documentTypes=Supporting%20%26%20Related%20Material&sortBy=postedDate The full list of tools and supplies I recommend can be found on my website: www.731woodworks.com/recommended-tools Join the TUBAFOUR NATION through Patreon to get access to exclusive member only behind the scenes videos, member only livestreams, exclusive discounts, and other cool member only perks! www.patreon.com/731woodworks Check this video's description for all the links to any tools and videos I discussed. If you use one of these Amazon and other affiliate links, I will receive a commission on qualifying purchases. Some other useful links: Daily Tool Deals on my website: www.731woodworks.com/tool-deals Subscribe to our email Newsletter to get new content alerts, sales, and more! mailchi.mp/7e44c16eefdc/731-woodworks-email-newsletter Easy to Follow Build Plans - www.731woodworks.com/store Outlaw's Board Butter - So Good it Should be Outlawed: www.731woodworks.com/store/boardbutter
A feeder option added to any shop table saw with adjustable height would keep finger out of the way. I have full details drawn up in crayon. LOL This is much better, cheaper and works with any table saw with feeder table and receiving table needed. Add dust collection to top. This idea works except for when crazy wood workers turn their table saws into lathes or other creative tools or use slid tables. I wonder how many de-gloving injures happen with lathes and other rotating devices.??
Bro, if this gets passed I'm immediately a SawStop hater and i'll explain why. They fought for the mandate, to have their technology to be in every tablesaw. If they release the patent for free, or at a VERY affordable rate for the manufacturers, then I'm okay with that, however if they don't, it was only a company trying to get rich by kicking out all of their competition, examples being Bosch getting sued. If their point is for everyone to be safe, be like Volvo, side note Volvo invented the 3 point safety harness seat belt, and released the patent to every auto manufacturer because it was the safest thing, and every car owner deserved that. If we're going into the same thing with tablesaws, then SawStop can be awesome, or they can be money hungry. It'll be interesting to see which way they go.
I said almost the same thing in my reply below. I know every time a law is past it costs us more and takes away freedoms and rights. How about a wood feeder that covers a saw blade that adjusts in height which can be added to any current table including a saw stop. Also, that $30000 dollar table is awesome and will get after I win the lottery. LOL@@douggauthier4768
If SawStop is petitioning for this technology, then part of the rule should be that SawStop must release all their patents related to injury mitigation into the public domain.
I posted longer, The base patents are about to go into public domain. At this point bosh dewalt etc…. Want the access to the tech without licensing, or non aim competition. Pass the legislation, the 2004 sawstop model will be public domain, any technology directly copied from it is fair game, even if later patented (that’s just gaming the system). And the 2004 sawstop level of protection or something reasonably close to it 3.5mm? I think was mentioned. And I agree, the Bosh competing technology should be unfettered unless it directly copies later improvements. Now a licensing schedule allowing copy of later models if sawstop improved should be implemented. Maybe $10 for a machine 15+ years old, $20 for machines 10 years old, $50 dollars for a machine 5 years old. But every tablesaw made by a company will be assessed that level of royalty. Same law/reg and fee structure applied to Bosch react and any other comp. Tech And yeah…. A $10 dollar fee for every tablesaw. Maybe just the base $10 fee at 20 years old, and clearing impediments if any from later patents on same tech. As a thankyou for the drastic improvement in perpetuity. 1 dollar for all research in last 20 years… if there was any significant is ridiculous…. IMO. REAL IMPROVEMENTS IF ANY SHOULD BE REWARDED. Patenting a fastener with a special name that was there and not mentioned in 1999-2004 in 2020 if such a thing happened should not extend protection for 20 years because the brake is useless without it…. Just an example of patent crap seen previous decades on other products, where good idea was buried in flurry of other patents that weren’t innovations. Sawstop having 140+ patents with 110+ pending…. I have no knowledge how many might be BS DESIGNED TO PREVENT COPYING THE 2004 machine.
If sawstop were behind it they are not going to admit it. It would mean they're either trying to procure a defacto monopoly on table saw sales or they want to tax every machine sold by a competitor. Both those are contrary to the public interest so they wouldn't want anyone to know that and no commissioner would want to appear part of such a scheme. If they wanted to license their patents they could do it today. Safe to say that's not what they're after. But I'm not sure this has anything to do with them. They could have the ear of a commissioner or two, for sure.
@@BadSpock Gass has publicly admitted to it. He's not hiding it at all. How he approached the other tools companies, how they turned down his high pricing demand which then turned into him creating his own table saw company is all public knowledge. Him petitioning to make it a requirement is also well known. He's very open about being this kind of person.
They've made a significant contribution to the industry, so it will be temporary so nothing to worry about. I don't agree it should be permanent, which is clear it won't be as it would be too obvious
Decades ago when I started reading about Mr. Gass strong-arming manufacturers and demanding legislation to require his invention, the whole thing really soured me. I could smell greed underneath it all, and I still feel that way today. I've been a professional carpenter for 43 years. I have been using a Powermatic 66 cabinet saw in my shop since 1990. I have trained myself from the get-go to do two things when I use it: 1. NEVER allow my hands ANYWHERE NEAR that moving blade. That's what a pair of sacrificial push sticks are for, and I've destroyed many of them. 2. Always anticipate where that missile will travel if the wood you're cutting should pinch against the fence or somehow catch in the saw teeth and be thrown straight back. Standing to one side of the line of travel is key. I smell monopoly coming due to hapless legislators who think it is their duty to regulate the issue without truly taking into consideration all sides of the problem. Much of it is user's failure to learn proper safety techniques before hitting the on switch. If the bureaucrats want to do something helpful, limit the licensing fee to $1.00 and call it a day. They should also overturn the restriction on Bosch's approach as an anti-monopoly move while they're at it. Gass has had his day in the sun... lets move along.
Maybe it is greed. Maybe it was capitalism (ie. the American Way). Maybe he cares that tens of thousands of people have gotten severe injuries every year that cost a lot of money. Far more than the cost to manufacture. You have survivors bias. I have heard your same statement... from people now missing a digit. So limiting the "licensing fee to $1.00" is anti-capitalism. I have seen the SawStop in action - both on a hot dog and on a hand. It works perfectly. For $200 you don't loose a finger. I hear a lot of anti-capitalism talk here trying to limit how much an inventor, how has invested their on time and money in inventing. I see the saw manufacturers also trying to save a buck and sell dangerous tools that consumers may not have much experience with. As for saw lightness, there are portable SawStop's. They work great.
If Gass wanted everyone to be safer, he would relinquish his patents. It’s that simple. But forcing everyone to license it from him is just greed. He’s a piece of shit.
So you've been using the same table saw for over 20 years. My thought with even a contractor table top saw is they're pretty reliable, simple to maintain devices that can last for years. This tech is going to make them much more complicated and more maintenance intensive, likely substantially shortening the service life.
In 7th grade shop class, we had zero injuries using table saws and band saws and all sorts of dangerous tools. The reason was simple our shop teacher took safety seriously. Our hands and fingers were never allowed within 6 inches of the blade. If you want to reduce injuries education is the key! The end user has an obligation to themselves and their families to practice safety measures. If a bunch of 7th graders with a good teacher can avoid these kinds of injuries the majority of adults should be able to do the same. If they want to make table saws safer PSAs are how the government should be doing it. Use something other than your figures and hands when guiding the wood close to the blade. If you don't have something official use off cuts of wood or other barriers, it's that simple.
7th graders fear the saw. It's contractors with thousands of hours operating them that end up in the hospital. It is very hard to avoid complacency, especially when we historically have prioritized efficiency over safety.
@@MrBeame How can you legislate away idiocy? I feel bad for a contractor that removes a finger, but you know the dangers. You know the safety procedures. You ignored them.
@@cycleboy8028 I agree with other comments that this seems more appropriately targeted for industrial applications where accidents are more likely to come from hourly employees trying to meet quotas. I do however expect that an idiot with a table saw is likely an idiot without health coverage, which is something we all pay for.
Back in the late 90s and early 2000s I worked for both Powermatic prior to the WMH purchase and then at Porter Cable/Delta through the Dewalt purchase. Steven Gass approached every manufacturer prior to starting SawStop in 2000 wanting to license the technology. There has always been two problems with this the first you rightly point out is that every manufacturers' legal department determined that they'd have to license this technology for every model of saw they make. For Delta we had maybe 20 different models and that license fee alone exceeded the retail cost of many of the benchtop and low end contractor saws. The second is that the license fee that Gass wanted was so cost prohibitive - not including the design and manufacturing cost increase - that any manufacturer other than Saw Stop who offered this technology wouldn't sell a single saw. The result of course is that nobody did. Then, just as now, in my opinion Gass had little interest in safety and is only interested in the revenue stream licensing would create as is evidenced by Saw Stop's continued litigation to extend the relevant patents timeline. If safety were the primary motivation then the required license fee would have been at a level the market and manufacturers could bear.
Equally, then and now in my opinion, the manufacturers making table saws have little interest in safety and are only interested in their market share and profits. If safety were a significant motivation, they would cease the race to the bottom in an effort to shed sufficient features and further abandon quality construction so as to undercut their competitors on price.
You know Gass did create a better mouse trap, and he should be compensated as significantly as his technology has completely alter the safety profile for an inherently dangerous piece of a equipment. I believe the manufacturing equipment industry really dropped the ball of this issue. I am absolutely not a safety nazi. But after a close call with my table saw, I realized that it would be a matter of time before I received a significant injury. My life is already complicated enough, and by loosing a finger or two with all the medical expenses, the use of my saw just wasn't worth it. Presently saving up for a sawstop product.
The company I worked for, used Powermatic saws for years. Our safety department had been contacted by Saw Stop and offered to install their unit for free, looking for future sales and bragging rights in advertising. The majority of our table saw use was cutting lab test samples of graphite composites, to our blades were sintered diamond coated. Average blade was over $500. The worst condition (clogged from overheated epoxy resin) blade was chosen as the test dummy as well as a package of hot dogs. As soon as the hot dog touched the blade, bam, the saw came to a stop, but all the debris thrown off left a cloud of graphite dust and some small pieces of fiberglass from other samples. The replacement "puck" if I recall was a couple hundred dollars and the blade was trashed. It might have been a upgrade if we used a conventional saw blade, but sintered diamond leaves you with a burn mark on the digit that touched the blade. Most of the time, it doesn't even bleed, as the wound is cauterized.
@@davidseslar5798so you hire out a Profesional driver driving the highest trims of mercadies? If not your endangering others and your family or do you chose less safe options ? Your logic is flawed becuse the if I sold a car that 100% never crashed but priced it at a 10 million then we baned every other car the world is safer but only to those that can afford it to everyone else they die nobody can afford to transport anything including medicine ,food etcetera and once you ban any saw that dosent have said tech he can charge 100k a saw becuse its that or go out of business and then that cost gets forced down those that can't afford simply have to suffer. Want a new house .... cool now they charge a extra 50k to cover the cost of 4 100k saws being tied up for a month.
@@realfamilymanlol but if you say OK government buys them out becuse its going to force every saw to have it he can say OK its 10 trillion in value now we also need to apply that to things like cars mecedies leads the world in self driving by leaps and bounds but the cheapest car with it is 140k so we should force all vehicles that areess safe off the road right ? Aka 200k cars will be a cheap unit
Great video as always. In 1959, Volvo engineer Nils Bohlin invented the three-point seat belt. Volvo Cars provided the patent to the world for free and saved more than one million lives, simply because one does not profit from death... The Bosch system was excellent because it didn't damage the blade and was less expensive than "SawHalt."
About that SawStop technology: Kickbacks are, perhaps, the most common cause of saw injuries. Kickbacks are caused when the wood is allowed to pivot on the blade, or when the kerf closes on the back of the blade, pinching it, resulting in the blade raising the wood and throwing it back. (1) Using push blocks, splitters and feather boards will cut kickbacks to few, or even none. The splitter keeps the kerf from closing on the blade, pinching it, causing the board to raise and be launched, often, across the blade. The feather board keeps the wood straight against the fence during cutting, so it doesn't bind on the blade and get kicked back. The push block, superior to a push stick because it holds down much more of the wood, and can do a better job of holding the wood against the fence, while holding your hand out of harm's way. (2) Not allowing your hands near the blade is, also, a critical part of safe saw operation. (3) Add not raising the blade higher than it needs to be raised (just enough to allow the gullets to clear chips and dust) to upping your chances of staying safe. (4) Finally, not standing behind the work piece, in case it does launch, is critical to your saw operation safety too. ALL these things are even more important than owning a SawStop. SawStop technology does not stop kickbacks. It only protects your hands and fingers at the blade. The SawStop safety feature MUST be disabled to cut wet or treated wood. Failure to do so will activate the brake system, requiring a new cartridge and blade. Since the system MUST AND CAN can be bypassed, knowledge of the safe operation of a table saw is more critical than owning a SawStop or saw with its technology.
Well said. My very first thought looking at this was kickback, and precisely the points you made about splitter, riving knives, proper technique (stand out of line of fire, pushblocks etc. I've got enough going on in my life, and no cycles available for this topic. Sawstop has $$$ for high six figure lobbyists. True it might also increase people using saws and diy hobbyists like me. Respect and appreciation to those pointing out the issues. Peace and respect.
Just to add some contextual information. SawStop's original patents expired in 2021. They have extended protection by way of 'Continuation Patents', which are extensions / variations on on the original patent. Based on current status, their protection would expire around 2026, though new continuation filings could change that. New continuation patent filings are only effective if (a) they actually are patentable and (b) they are seen as a necessary component that any competitor would need to implement in order to compete in the space.
I learned to run a table saw in the '70's, as a college student in a scene shop. They taught me about 6 rules: 1. Be alert and aware of kickback. 2.Never rip anything narrower than 3 inches. 3. Don't run the blade too high. 4. Crank the blade down when done. 5. Keep your hand that's nearest the blade on the fence. 6. Never use the fence and the crosscut at the same time. We used out table saw only to rip long boards, and considered it more dangerous than the other saws, so treated it more carefully. I'm 72, have all 10 fingers
I also learned proper use in high school shop class in the 70s. I had a great teacher who spent the time before anyone was allowed to even turn on a machine. Problem is, shop class is rare if not nonexistent these days, what with the concern over liability and the push for every kid to get a college education, along with other changes in interests of the average teenager. A table saw in the hands of someone who has never had any training is extremely dangerous. I wonder if there are statistics on what the root cause for accidents requiring a trip to the ER? I suspect a large number of accidents are caused by lack of proper training, and following good table saw safety practices. It is very easy to find people doing really dumb things with a table saw on youtube so that is probably reflective of the the general population. The requirement for riving knives and functional blade guards has had to have had an impact on the number of injuries, but then again, maybe that is not born out in the stats. These two items and the invention of the Biesemeyer fence that can be accurately and consistently be set parallel to the blade have made table saws a lot safer. Problem is, many people don't use their saws correctly and they get injured, even with these excellent improvements. These are accidents, but they are caused by intentionally disregarding safety features and correct use of the tool. The rest of the injuries are actual accidents caused by fatigue, inattention or other factor that causes someone who knows better to do something they know better. AIM technology would be a great thing for all table saws to have, but I definitely have a problem with SawStop and the inventor's intentions to make millions by forcing this regulation. If it is that important to them, they should have zero issue in letting other companies use their technology for free. But, since they sued Bosch over their tech, that clearly isn't their intention.
I went to a school that had a pretty nice workshop, with bureaucratic "safety" requirements I put that on commas because I have the feeling they demanded you using gloves, goggles AND face mask while using things like the lathe, drill, and mill, just to discourage students from spending time using that when you had to run to the next class... the justification of safety was moot as anyone who knows rotating tools will tell you long sleves, gloves and sight impediment (by using two protections) is a big no no.
The first "table saw" I ever used when I was a kid mounted a circular saw underneath a table with something similar to a router lift. That is going to make a come back if entry level is $500
Back in 1950 my dad built a 2 story house in PA with an ALL METAL Black & Decker 6½" circular saw that he fabricated a frame that held it upside down when he needed to rip stuff.
So true. At some point it will be so much more cost effective to put together one yourself, that will be the way people will go. Even then there may be professional kits that will be offered that is assembled by the end user, by passing all these rules that would unnecessary if only the users would be careful.
You sure? Before SawStop a Unisaw was pretty pricey. I have seen them on auctions lately (like within the last couple of months) and they struggle to break $150.
To be honest, if track saws had been a thing way back when, I'd probably have that rather than a table saw now. Esp for a home workshop, many of us don't have the room to maneuver sheet goods on a table saw. If I were a saw manufacturer that makes primarily jobsite saws, I'd probably drop the table saw and look for ways to make the track saw meet those needs.
It is just a mater of time before they move from the table saw to all powered tools. Cha-Ching more money from companies going to politicians to make this happen. Who can afford to buy a new car without a mortgage for many years? That is from gubment mandated crap on the vehicles
I worked at a kitchen cabinet company for a few yrs and there was one table saw that was fitted with the SawStop. It worked fine with dry lumber but as soon as you put wet pressure treated wood on it, it activated the SawStop destroying the blade. And besides, 99.9% of table saw mishaps occur due to operator error...
i have a cousin who works for Bosch, specifically in the table saw division. He worked on their system. It was built from the ground up and they believe did not violate any patents. however, once the ligation came, it became apparent that it was not in Bosch interest to spend the money to try and fight the lawsuit, as they assumed that the cost of fighting would wash out money made on their tech.
Yes, that is the reason many times European manufacturers don't bring their good tech to the US, I know some other examples of this. Because in the US there is no punishment for wrongfully suing someone. In Europe, if someone sues for infringement but is proved wrong in court, they will have to bear the defendants legal costs. That's why those lawsuits are not made unless high chances of legal success are envisioned.
I do think the riving knife was a cost effective and great improvement. I purchased the DeWalt shown in your shop. I also have an ancient Craftsman table saw which I am very careful with. How much safer would woodworking be if there was more training like putting shops back into the schools and teaching the reality of how to use potentially dangerous tools.
@@lc3853 not true, but let me rephrase. What percentage of those table saw injuries could have been prevented by a properly installed riving knife and/or blade guard.
I am all for the idea of safety training in school shops, and after school training on an adult education basis - Some SMALL FEE, not something stupid like $200 ......
@@tchevrierblade guards and riving knifes suck. If you use a saw properly you won't get hurt. A guard or knife doesn't make a difference. Sorry, I just don't see it. Been using my table saw for 20 years and the only time I had a close call it was because I was making a high risk cut.
Accidents do happen, but they can be reduced on a table saw by having good understanding on how they operate as well as having a good splitter and using a push block. I use the same saw as Norm Abram did and I follow much of his safety advice. He has pushed more wood through a table saw then I could ever dream of. I think one of the worst things is getting complacent.
EXACTLY After I installed a Merlin Splitter on my Unisaw, pinched wood didn't go away, BUT it went to pinching the splitter, instead of the back of the blade. AND, before they became popular, I used push shoes/blocks. That held the wood down MUCH better and kept my fingers and thumbs out of harms way. MEANWHILE, sawstop technology WILL NOT stop kickbacks (wood launches), which can be as dangerous or more dangerous than losing a piece of you.
I see complacency as a separate topic. It's like pointing out that driving is more dangerous while reading a book.... Yep, it sure is... but your car should still be required to have headlights. My issue is with the patent preventing the technology making its way to the masses and the masses are funding the protection of that patent. Personally, I question whether patents concerning safety should exist at all.
Well said .. I was coming into the comments to say exactly this .. first and foremost is u freestanding alwxactly what it can and can’t do , and complacency is the number one culprit in tablesaw accidents
There's quite a few problems with this proposal: 1. If this is mandated for table saws how long will it be before other tools and equipment get similar mandates? 2. More importantly "safety measures" put on dangerous pieces of equipment could actually embolden people to be more reckless and complacent when they're using said equipment. 3. And of course, why is it the governments job to prevent careless people from being careless? If someone missuses something how is that the public at large's fault? 4. You can't fix stupid.
lets NOT forget #5, people WILL remove various safety devices if they think those devices hamper productivity.... and some will be removed simply because they can be removed... and #6, accidents will STILL happen no matter what safety devices are on a tool or other hazardous device... that's part of Murphy's law, anything that CAN go wrong most likely WILL go wrong....
@@mikewhitaker2880 Yeah there's definitely more issues, but I got lazy and just mentally lumped everything into problem 4. Also I myself am guilty of taking safety guards off of my power tools, though if it's an internal safety component were someone has to actually take the tool apart to remove it I think most people would probably just deal with it. Especially if that component cost them hundreds of dollars extra to be there.
You can't engineer around stupidly. Remove the safety labels. Let natural selection work itself out. Give emergency services the job security they deserve.
Relating to #3, Congress passes laws that create agencies like the CPA and the FTC and their job "IS" to make things safer because that is what the law says. The Government answers to groups with money. (Because they all need it to get reelected) Insurance companies have mountains of money. They do not want to spend money on repairing your flesh. They want to take your money and pay themselves huge bonuses. Look at cars, what is the cheapest car in america? Its well over 20k now. But it has all the safety stuff on it that only Mercedes had on their cars 20 years ago. Mercedes didn't push more safety so that they could get their patents licensed by other manufactures. The Government wants to make things safer, all things, across the board. Eventually our Government is going to go bankrupt, easily within 10 years, so none of the "Safety" laws will matter because there is going to be a big reset. I foresee a huge black market for $300 saws coming across the boarder from Mexico. Just watch Ebay and FB Marketplace they will be everywhere just not at Lowes and Home Depot.
1. Tablesaws are disproportionally unsafe compared to other tools, this is not a problem, the reason that this is being proposed in the first place is because tablesaws are one of most dangerous tools 2. no evidence backed up to this claim, but no, in general safety options are deterrents, especially if the safety option is almost all pros. Outside of cost, the sawstop solution is almost entirely all pros 3. The government has in its best interest to help its citizens, the government legislates safety all the time, from the rules on the road, to food, etc. etc. etc. In addition, this costs the government money, we have partially subsidized health, and lost productivity is also less tax revenue. 4. agreed, but even a stupid person grazing their hand over a saw blade can have their fingers saved by this system. Increasing safety standards is not necessarily a bad thing, we look at modern cars, from bumper design to seat design, to extra features such as rear cameras.
At Volvo, the inventor of the three-point seatbelt gave away the patent for the good of mankind. Sawstop and Bosch could follow suit, but since they are obligated to increase shareholder wealth (as are all corporations) it is unlikely those patents will be released without license.
Well the government has 5he power to lift their patents if it benefits the safety of man. So there's that. Otherwise it's nothing more than greed on the government and creator of the patent which seems to be the case
I work full-time as a carpenter in the entertainment industry and despite productions requiring the "hot dog saw" in our shops we end up disabling it for all the laminates and other conductive materials we use. Even pressure treated has tripped it on us. The blade replacement, cartridge, and sometimes material loss costs start to add up faster.
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. Will OSHA rules could shut us down if we don't comply.
Although a headache for sure, this is a matter of when will it backfire, and not if. Do something long enough and someone will lose a finger and since you disabled the safety feature their to protect you, the medical cost may very well fall totally on the worker and not the company.
For sure! You would have to use only kiln dried lumber on your saw (sorry big box stores!) and would cause production delays if your material got wet in transport or something. The technology is already offered with the Saw Stop if they want it, forcing it on manufacturers would just hit the consumer in the wallet, basically footing the bill for the R & D required to bring this to market.
@@peaceshalom3030 Yes the government needs to keep out of this. This is One hundred percent Dr. Gass and TTS and corrupt bureaucrat/s trying to get even richer. It's all a load of crap because I would be more than willing to bet large sums of money that there are a hell of a lot less table saws in the U.S. today than there was even 20 years ago with all of the offshoring of furniture and cabinet production here in the U.S. Not to mention the large decline in the number of home hobbyists. Now I would say that their maybe more table saw accidents than in years past. Due to the difference of the average hobbyist of the past and todays.
There is zero chance this actually gets implemented before the SawStop patents fully expire. This will be held up in litigation at least until then. I agree this would $200-$300 to the cost of these saws in parts alone, but a SawStop license could easily add another $100-$200 on top of that. Europe hasn't even mandated this and they are bigger safety weenies than anyone.
Dude, here in Germany there are even discussions about a helmet mandate for fu**ing bycicles. And you aren't allowed to sell self-built furniture if you are no officially trained craftsman 😅 Waaaay too much regulation in every aspect of our lives...
Don't worry. As soon as the do-gooders here in the UK learn about this, we will have the same law. And our table saws aleady cost us $500. By the way, dado blades aren't actually banned over here. It's more to do with the saw not stopping quickly enough for our rules with them fitted. So, instead of the manufacturers fitting better braking on the saws, it's cheaper for them just to fit shorter arbours.@@bmacaulay18
@@DanisWerkstatt I think that law not allowing trained craftsman to sell their own furniture is more of a trade job protection issue. They don't want the tradesmen to go out of business.
I was a Union Carpenter in various shops in Chicago for 22 years. Worked on a table saw every day- hundreds and hundreds of cuts every day. Never got a nick. The key to saw safety is respect for the tool. I always compare it to riding a motorcycle- as soon as you don't respect the machine, it's going to bite you!!! I don't want the government to put training wheels on my saws!!
Too many stupid people use these tools with zero safety training. They are dumb as a stick. I've seen them work, and it's easy to see they will lose their fingers; they are just stupid and reckless.
Realistically, there are only a few ways to implement AIM and if that are allowed to stay restricted then it will almost eliminate competition. The US government can open a patent and allow others to use it if it is in the best interests of the people. If they want AIM technology on all table saws, then they need to remove the patent protections so all manufacturers can add it to their products.
This is generally used for wartime, but has been used for other things in the past - see COVID and War Powers Act. Thing is, unlike COVID this affects a MUCH smaller number of people, so there will be litigation (possibly successful). Saw Stop has been pushing for this for years. Not saying it is based upon greed v good intentions, just that they have tried to push for this WHILE holding all the cards, and getting the government to enforce it. Seems like greed does play a role here.
I do not understand why the saw can not distinguish between wood and hands and if it takes so many seconds for the blade to stop once electricity is cut and a brake applied then any hand with in those seconds of stopping should stop the saw. Safety devices have been on machines for decades so why are table saw so difficult? Laser beams, led sensors, heat sensors surely they can make saws safe with out the split second saw damaging technology of Sawstop.
15~20 years ago yes. No longer, there are several setups to protect the user from being cut these days. Bosch, Altendorf, and Felder all have their ways of accomplishing this, just not currently in the US for some like Bosch. Once manufacturers are forced to comply I do not think they will be turning down the opportunity to develop this time, or purchase a license agreement as they were offered 20 years ago before SawStop began manufacturing. Those manufacturers that turned SawStop down on the license agreement failed to see the obvious future. They are not doing so well these days. Woodcraft used to offer many different brands of TS's compared to today. Now they mostly sell SawStop.
It sure seems like the federal government just opening the patent would seriously discourage future innovation. Why develop the next big thing if the government will just decide it's so cool that everyone should have it for free?
Sawstop has been lobbying for this type of regulation since the day they got the patent. I'd be interested in seeing the money flow for the regulators involved in setting the regulations.
@@pushingdaisies4238 The government is more corrupt than your wildest and most cynical dreams. The U.S. exterminated 500 nations of native people, protected the institution of human slavery for 100 years, allowed Jim Crow for another 100 after that, interned Japanese-Americans, secretly overthrew a dozen democratic governments around the world, and dropped two nukes on civilian targets. It's not cynical to think that we might pass a law to enrich a lobbyist or two.
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. Will OSHA rules shut us down if we don't comply.
I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for more safety in an inherently dangerous product. As far as insurance goes, I imagine a timeframe where you would get discounts for having AIM technology in your production shop. As the implementation becomes more ubiquitous then there could be a requirement to "tool up." But that's just the insurance company protecting themselves. The CPSC is really there to listen to professional opinions about products and safety and to discuss if, why, and how to implement changes to those things. I think it is important to have them, and it seems like they are having a legitimate discussion that will hopefully commit to progress while also taking into account the stakeholders and what impact the CPSC will have on the industry.
They cannot extend them but they can muddy the water with litigation regarding filing versus award dates and later patents. That's why it's important to get multiple companies including sawstop agree to RAND licensing terms to preserve a healthy market.
BTW, I've been doing woodwork for years and have never had an accident with the table saw blade. I gave the damn thing the respect it deserves. I've had close calls with kick back of the work being cut, had a 2x4 kick back and make a hole in the wall behind me. THAT could be MORE dangerous than getting cut by the blade.
Indeed, the most dangerous thing about table saws is the kick back risk. It takes a decent bit of knowledge to understand how to hold and move material to avoid kickbacks. For instance knowing what kinds of wood could have built up tension that could be released as you cut it and then it moves into the blade causing kick back. The least dangerous thing unless you're being careless is hitting the blade itself with your finger. Some people might think the band saw is dangerous but that thing makes me the least wary. I've had a band snap and while its a bit jarring it doesnt do anything because it just releases itself from the wheels.
@@gilbatzri Luck? No, your grandfather lost fingers because of issues you know not about such as less care, some issue causing him to not pay attention or not stopping when he noticed he should.
These are the same statists that wanted to ban Onewheels. That would be like banning skateboards, or bicycles. And there's a ton more of skateboard and bicycles injuries than Onewheel injuries.
I worked in an ER almost all of my working life and of course I’ve seen quite a few devastating table saw injuries. Some that changed livelihoods and others that redirected passions and hobbies. Mangled hands/fingers, blindness and significant kickback injuries . When it comes to table saws you can’t be too careful.
@larryrichardson5167 I think so , if they were in it to keep people safe they would work out an either offer the technology as open source or offer a fair price for it. Stop suing the other companies who come out with a similar technology.
@@pinkyhotmessx69 Yes. A woman permanently lost vision in an eye when a nail head shot through the air piercing her globe. Others were mostly fingertip injuries but there were also significant hand injuries with muscle, tendon bone involvement. Some patients do well but others lose a lot of function. These included musicians (piano and guitar players) and my dad who I thought had just stopped by to say hi but when I saw blood dripping from the bath towel I knew it was something else.
Years ago I started with a circular saw plunged through a sheet of 1/4 ply, flipped upside down with the trigger taped on. I honestly think injuries will go up as a result of this. Make no mistake - this is about money not safety.
Great point! People will resort to MORE dangerous solutions when the gov't's first order (typical leftist/control freak thinking) ignores the second order effects.
I watched those hearings on 2003. They were very interesting. In the end they would not make it a law because only one vendor had a patented solution until patents expired they would not mandate the change. Most injuries happen in professional workplace and in this case workers are forced to use employer supplied equipment. Everyone agrees worker safety in professional places is a good thing.
They are simply working with SawStop to get a licensing fee which they will get a kickback from. It it goes through for table saws it will eventually include circular saws. The saw cartridges are destroyed when they function so the cost is much much higher than just 200 dollars. Always remember, there is not one single person in government who truly cares about you. It is always about money in their pockets.
All wrong. The government doesn't get paid any licensing fee in any scenario. Sawstop owns its patents and can license them. Or not. So far, not. The government's interest here is simply the mission of the agency, consumer safety. Also remember the government is us...
To say that "there is not one single person in government who truly cares about you" is about as cynical a statement (and so utterly demonstrably false) as I've heard. And for what it's worth, that idea about "money in their pockets" is much more likely on the right of the political spectrum than the left.
And here I am, a dumbass thinking that it was a good thing when anti-lock brakes, seatbelts, airbags, and back up cameras were mandated in cars. Little did I know that the government was in bed with Big Seatbelt. It was all just money in their pockets.
So Glad I bought my Harvey Cabinet saw recently. Great saw BTW. 45 years and can still count to 10 on my fingers and thumbs. Safety is not an accident.
I really appreciate your deep dive and opinion on the topic. It was refreshing to see someone actually dive down and share the source material and key parts. In a world where everything is sound-bite hooks -- being thorough on the topic was refreshing. Thanks!
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. Will OSHA rules shut us down if we don't comply.
if it passes your going to get table saw like mounts for circular saws that don't have the current level of safety that is found in the budget tables saws now.
Times have changed since I first learned woodworking many years ago. I've been in construction for over 30 years and completely understand how safety has evolved, mainly for the better, still have all my fingers & toes.. Just 5 years ago I decided to start doing custom furniture in my backyard so guess I better keep my DeWalt jobsite table saw in tip top shape to avoid needing to purchase one with the new technology.
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. Will OSHA rules shut us down if we don't comply.
Personally, I'll be embracing the change when I make my next purchase. With competition, the costs shouldn't get too crazy. A sawstop cartridge retails for 99 dollars, which is like 30 bucks wholesale, for a niche product in an industry. With market wide adoption and competition, the price can only go down. These saws should actually reduce insurance rates due to added saftey. Though I could see insurance going up for those that don't have these saws a few years after them becoming the standard. And yes, it is the governments job to tell its subjects what they can and can not do when it comes to the publics saftey (refference the seat belt in cars). An American belongs to the United states of America. America is a sovereign nation. An American is a subject of America. And as such beholden to its whims.
@@josephcernansky1794 if it comes on it anyways, you might as well use it until you trigger the blade stopper. the modern ones are pretty hard to set off by mistake
A couple things to point out: -Sawstop's brake requires a grounded power source, so if the rule goes through, it will absolutely destroy the cordless table saw market until we figure out how to inplement this tech to battery operated saws. -When it comes to lisencing Sawstop AIM to other manufacturers, TTS probably won't have a choice but to lisence them as their cordless systainer saw and their CS 50 are gonna be pulled off the market, which will make a dent in their profits.
RE cordless saw: the saw detects skin contact by detecting a change in capacitance between the metal blade and some other electrode (in saw stop's case, ground). you can imagine the saw blade as one of the two plates in a classic "parallel plate" capacitor. when your (conductive) body touches the blade, the "plate" becomes much larger, causing the overall capacitance between the 2 plates to increase, and the safety circuit can detect this change by constantly charging and discharging the "capacitor" and measuring how long it takes. Since the saw stop plugs into the wall, it's convenient to use ground as the second plate in the capacitor, but that's not the only option. you can measure capacitance between any 2 conductive materials that aren't shorted together, so you could have your "ground" just be a pad on the circuit board, or a wire buried somewhere inside the case. those "build a game controller out of bananas" kits (yes that's a real thing look it up!) use this same principle, there's just a bit of metal on the PCB that it's using as its second electrode. capacitive touch sensing is the same technique used on touchscreen devices like phones, and those things manage to detect touch just fine whether or not they're plugged into the wall. arguably a smartphone has to solve a much harder problem than a cordless saw does, since it has to cycle through an entire grid of electrodes, and then process all those measurements to figure out exactly where on the screen was touched, whether there are multiple fingers touching the screen, etc., and do all that with electrodes that are buried under a layer of glass, and thin enough for the screen to shine through. the point is just that capacitive touch sensing is a ridiculously advanced, very mature technology, and it's currently used for a really wide range of applications; the specific use case of "touch detection on a cordless saw blade" is definitely new, it would probably have some unique challenges on account of being a new thing, but it's not demanding anything inherently new from the tech. so, technologically wouldn't be too hard, i imagine the patent lawyers would spend more hours on it than the engineers.
@@kadmow Well, that's the real trick, isn't it. You can never make anything idiot proof, because you can never over-estimate the ingenuity of an idiot...
I really hope this agreement somehow allows Bosch to implement the Reaxx technology again, I'm looking forward to purchasing that over anything from SawStop.
I hope so too. That would mean the we would FINALLY get access to this technology here in Europe. The only table saw sold here that has this safety feature is the Festool TKS80, a job site table saw that starts at €2000 (adding all the fence and runout options will run over €3500!). It has a proprietary fence system that is hot garbage according to reviewers, and precludes the use of popular 3rd party or homebrew fences and sleds.
@@kaasmeester5903 I could be wrong but if I recall the patent dispute settlement stated Bosch would not sell their version in America. I thought they could still sell it in Europe. I also recall the two technologies were different. The only similarity was that the blade would stop if touched. Bosch had an interesting mechanism. It didn't destroy the blade and it didn't require a 'cartridge' to reset it. Old info and my memory might not be as clear.
Agreed. The way SawStop tried (and continues to) use the legal system to strong arm other manufacturers shows that their concern for the users’ safety takes a back seat. Look at their lawsuit with Bosch.
As an owner/user of a Bosch Reaxx, I still think it's superior to the sawstop. Precisely because it doesn't damage the blade and you can keep working after rotating or replacing the safety system's explosive cartridge (and maybe putting on a fresh pair of underwear...). It works similarly to how an automotive airbag works except that the explosion drives a piston that pulles the blade downwards in a split second. Each cartridge has 2 "shots" and after 25 times of the system triggering Bosch requires you to have the saw inspected/reset by a licensed technician/repair facility. Some people might balk or object to this, but given the violence forces at work when the system triggers (you're never expecting it and the bang scares the crap out of you!!), I really do understand this requirement. Also: if you, your employees, or anyone you are teaching/supervising are using a table saw responsibly in the first place, you're unlikely to ever reach 25 occurrences so this shouldn't really be a problem). The detection works (as far as I understand, so don't quote me...) like the capacitative technology on touch screens. So, for cuts in conductive materials like wet/moist lumber or aluminum, you can override/deactivate the REAXX safety system with a separate button that you have to press at the same time as you pull up the saw's paddle-switch.
after watching. and as US citizen I see immediate violation. Sherman anti-trust act. there is only one US company has monopoly on this technology, and had blocked Bosch with Bosch's modification. This commission ruling most likely encourage monopoly, thus violate the Sherman anti-trust act, and per prior court rulings, Government agencies and commission(s) can not violate standing laws. Gut feel, commission will get "punished" for violating the law.
Thank you for putting in the time and effort to produce this video, a LOT of time and effort, not only in the research, but in putting the presentation itself together. I thought it was a nice idea to coil the cord on the saw to show clearly that it was unplugged.
Jeez, it’s almost like you guys are pointing out the flaw of leaving the development of necessary technology, universally beneficial, to the whims of profit motive.
if developing a safer product can net you more money, what's wrong with that? auto manufacturers resisted safety regulation for DECADES, and now they market the safety of their cars!
Until you start receiving a safety recall notice every other month, requiring you to send your table saw off to get fixed. I don't think the automotive industry is a good model to follow. The worst part about all of this is the fact that this decision will ultimately be made by people who have never been around a table saw in their life.
If this goes through (which I doublt), I think we'll find that this tech isn't as expensive as we think it is. SawStop is taking advantage of their patent window.
This requirement will barely lower the number of serious injuries for 2 reasons: #1, the saw-stop tech has to be able to be disabled so you don't activate it when cutting wet wood, nails, etc., so a bunch of people will just disable it so they don't risk needing to buy a new blade set. These are also likely the people who won't treat the saw with respect and are more likely to get injured. #2, there are 10s or 100s of thousands of active table saws out there that will continue to cause injuries for years to come. The government needs to stop trying to protect people from themselves. The CPSC is supposed to stop negligent and malicious issues with products, not impose severe tech changes to a tool that is always going to be dangerous.
Don't worry this has literally no chance of becoming law, They don't even have a basic idea of what they want, how to implement anything, nor what kind of timeframe is required. The hearing was a joke CPSC should be embarrassed and the head should honestly resign or be fired, if that is the kind of work they are producing with our tax dollars. That was a clown show.
@@jasonrowe6302 Seatbelts? The things that a bunch of people don't wear and the only reason half of the people who do is because the cops will ticket them otherwise? You gonna send cops into everyone's house to ensure they aren't disabling the sawstop feature?
@@shawnpitman876 great logic to not do it. Seatbelts cost more when they were implemented. Now it's just the price you pay for the vehicle. A very small portion of people chose to not wear them as will a very small portion of users if saws with the safety device. It's likely not going to impact saws already out there just like the new seatbelt law didn't impact cars already on the road.
1) know where the blade is at all times 2) use a push stick 3) only use as much blade as you need to make the cut 4) if it goes into the machine let it go, it’s gone, DO NOT try to “rescue” it 5) All saws have the potential to kick back 6) Make sure your fence is straight and runs parallel to the blade 7) Pay close attention to what you are doing at all times, especially while the machine is on.
Great video! Very thorough and informative!!! also, noticing how many of the commenters clearly did not watch the entire video and listen to what the actual lawyer had to say/explain.
Just after the video discussed implementing the rule in 30 days to 6 months, I gave it some quick thought based on my retiring from a career as an aerospace mechanical designer and came up with reasonable time frame of 3 years. Once the rule is mandated, a manufacturer will have initial meetings on the design followed by product detail design. Tooling design for molds and product handling won't start until a certain amount of design maturity is reached. Cutting chips for the tools and any product detail parts won't happen until the designs are formally released. So, 3 years is comfortable. 1 year would be very rushed. A rule implementation of less than a year will mean that manufacturers discontinue sales until they can redesign their saws.
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. Will OSHA rules could shut us down if we don't comply.
Excellent explanation of this topic. Been woodworking for forty years, all with a delta contractor saw, never injured, so i know what I'm doing. But my plan has been to buy a saw with AIM technology (currently only Sawstop) when im ready to replace the ol' Delta. Higher cost, sure. For me its a simple question -- how much are my fingers worth?
Same here. 40 years, no serious accidents. Very safety conscious. Then it happened. Took off the front of my thumb. Happened faster than I can describe. I thought I was paying attention but I wasn't. Incredibly dangerous tool and I learned a lesson I thought I knew. My fingers are worth every bit of safety I can give them. I can never undo that moment no matter how much I wish I could. I can just never let it happen again.
THE PEOPLE SPEWING OUT THESE OBSERD INJURY FIGURES ARE FEEDING YOU B,,, S,,, DISGUISED AS SAFTY, WILL ALLOW SAW STOP TO MAKE MORE MONEY. I have worked for an architectural woodworking company for over fifty years. Employees averaged 20 to 25 per year. Table saw injurys over that time less than 5, amputation of hand or fingers = 0. Cutting a finger with anything = more than 100. Slipping on snow in the parking lot = more than 100. 50 years of injurys requiring serious medical attention (stitches) maybe 10. They are screwing with you, and trying to scare you into getting this BS passed into a law that will make them lots of money. The value of the 45 year old tablesaw in my garage just went way up! IT JUST WENT UP BY TEN DIGITS!!! 😊😊😊😊😊
Awesome video! Thanks for taking the time to investigate, provide your perspective, and also talk to an expert. Looks like an enormous amount of work went into this and as a table saw user it’s definitely top of mind for me.
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. Will OSHA rules shut us down if we don't comply.
I lost the tip of my thumb while using a table back in'97. It was an old cabinet saw with zero safety features. I got lazy while ripping old barn wood down, I kept the blade high so I didn't have to constantly move it up/down. The board hit a nail that I had missed and my thumb was history! I'd be interested in learning if the numbers of injuries/missing digits were actually all table saws, or are the adding accidents from shop smith's, band saws, scroll saws, etc. I'd guess that they're all included which would make table saws not as dangerous as they indicate. Even if their numbers are correct, I'd guess, 90%+ of accidents were user error and not the saws fault. I'd love to have a Saw Stop or something similar because the old saying, it's not if, but when, but not in my budget right now. Kinda feel like this is just another government overreach and shouldn't happen.
Yep I'm with you on those numbers. Last year my son lost a fingern part of his hand on a chop saw. I lost the tip of my finger in a stick blender lol don't ask. I can guarantee those are blade or tool injuries not just tablesaw. Ive seen this in othere areas of gov. They never check facts or sources of lobbiests that line their pockets. In this case saw stop. We need to challenge this bs anywhere possible and call 5heir bluff.
@pinkyhotmessx69 I've done and seen some sketchy stuff, and have heard, "hold my beer", hundreds of times!!! Of all the accidents/injuries I've seen, almost all could have been avoided!!! Probably only a couple of times in 35 years, where it was a tool issue. I have nothing against safety, but we definitely need to be better at taking responsibility for our actions and not allowing the government to have control!
Thnks for spending all this time to get us up to date Matt. Fct is last year I cut part of my index finger off on my table saw. Compared to many injuries it was minor BUT a HUGE Eys opener. I sold that table saw in less than a week and bought a Sw Stop PCS Caninet saw. That accident changed the was I run my woodworking business. Saw Stop as you not only provides that extra measure of saftey but they had made it so easy to remove and replace the blade guard. Now unless I'm using the Dado set or my sled the gurd is ALWAY on. God bless you matt and thanks again for all you do for us. I appreciate your ministry.
The only issue I can see with that based off of what they’re saying a new system will be required for dado blades as well. Does saw stop have a system for dados?
The Dado brake cartridge is a separate purchase when you get the saw. It is very easy to install and then replace the standard blade brake cartridge. Takes maybe a minute or so. I've used it many times.
@@richragan4810 Just wait for that to be 'too complex' and so 'dangerous' for you to do. Has to go to the manf only. Just $100 charge plus the blade pack, if you've signed up to the 'special deal'....;)
A textbook case study in cronyism: one company bludgeoning an entire industry into using their product through the blunt instrument of bureaucratic regulation. All under the guise of 'for the good of the customer'.
Which brings me to an observation. They did this to the Radial Arm Saw in the 80s. The Radial Arm had many less accidents, even without the new safety guard, than The TS. TS accidents are 61000 per year. (Don't know how the accidents were grouped) Pretty much decimated their sales with bad publicity. So, now they are going after the TS. When they're done with that, they will go after another tool. Just another way to take our freedoms away under the guise of safety. YOU CAN'T PROTECT EVERYONE! There is always diminishing aware of statistics, dangers and procedures when buying. Then let them be self accountable. Let the competition to sell improve the product or training. Why doesn't everyone buy a Saw Stop. Because they can't afford them! So, let's make all the saws cost that much.
@@ATSaale One could argue that's not even a vaccine. It certainly was new technology and was not properly tested. I'm glad I never got the shot, esp as I have a heart issue.
I currently have a Skilsaw. Had it for years and it works great. Will probably get a nice, used high end cabinet saw was one comes up in an estate sale.
I'm sure Sawstop would love to see other table-saw manufacturer's have to increase the cost of their saws. Nothing like getting the Government to give your company (which conveniently owns a patent on probably the best safety feature) a way to force competition out of business.
The guy that invented the SawStop tech, tried to license it to all the saw manufactures. and they all declined. the guy that invented the tech deserves to be compensate for his invention. he only started SawStop after the other companies declined to license his technologies. so, I really don't feel back for the other companies. they chose profits over safety. sawstop was not a competitor until they all declined to license his tech.
@@shadvan9494 while you are correct about that but what was the cost of licensing it? and look at how many different patents he and sawstop now own basically preventing anyone else from moving into the market and also wanting to extend the patents rights another 20 years.
@@shadvan9494 They all declined because cost and fear of litigation for not putting it on all models. The patents are nearly at the point of being expired. This all of a sudden coming to the CSPC for new rulings along with attempt to extend the patents stinks of bribery and corruption. Free markets need to be free. If someone doesn't want to buy a sawstop they shouldn't have to. I personally like the Laguna Fusion F2 and for the money I would not buy a sawstop. We don't need government deciding what you can and can not buy.
As a patent holder I am well acquainted with the patent laws and every US Patent has a rider built in stating that the patent may be used by the US Government or as a public safety issue. The government can (after litigation) require a patent to be licensed for what the court determines to be a fair and reasonable fee, but that can take time.
@stevesether With Sawstop, they are an issue. The inventor was a patent attorney out for a payday, not safety. Multiple manufacturers have said he was asking for a license fee in many cases equal to their entire selling price in the early days. After that didn't work, he started lobbying the government to mandate his patented technology. When that didn't work, he started Sawstop. For as simple of a mechanism as Sawstop uses (conductivity detected on the blade trips a brake), Sawstop has literally hundreds of patents on every conceivable method of stopping the blade. They've used every legal trick in the book to extend each of those patents for as long as possible. Bosche's saw used completely different technology that didn't infringe any Sawstop patents but they still pulled out of the market because proving that in court would've been more expensive and eliminated any profits.
@@112428 When patents expire, that's it. No more patent rights. Also, patents don't cover "obvious inventions". The patent office is notorious for issuing patents that never should have been issued. Amazons "one click patent" is but one example. The other thing is, patents are like munitions. You arm yourself against attack with other patents.
My grandfather and grandfather were carpenters, my father is an avid advanced woodworker and I do woodworking - never had an accident. Although I was taught to have a good well made tablesaw. Was taught how to feed the material into the saw. What type of blade to use and when. How and when to use a push stick. I run a unisaw from the early 90’s and my dad’s unisaw is from the 40’s. I’m all for the safety but the sawstop having the patent and the government saying every saw needs it is well creating a monopoly - just another way of using “safety” as a means of control - never though my old table saw would become political pawn……
Thank you for putting together a highly informative and considered perspective on this topic. It is certainly giving me a new mindset about my approach to table saws.
Price increase also seems to ignore the cost of cartridges and blades that need replacement. The spares that need to be stocked to ensure that if you trigger off a staple left behind by the lumberyard, Black paint, mirrored plexiglass, etc...you can still hit your deadlines.
@@ChickenPermissionOGright, but the odds of such an incident happening are very low, while the odds of triggering the cartridge for a dozen other reasons are very high
If this goes through, we will need some combination of SawStop and retractable sawblade technology. While I get the appeal of having safer table saws, the price of it is not just extra 200-300, but also $200-300 every time you have to replace the cartrige and the blade. That's the current price of a saw right there. When you consider contractors, who may be cuting through all type of crappy lumber, containing screws and nails, they could be having to replace those parts few times a day.
So, they're basically mandating all saws have Sawstop equivalent technology, which is patently ridiculous in terms of expense. It will all but destroy all existing low-cost saws, will jack the price of used saws insanely, and, much more dangerously -- *lead to people building their own table saws* -- this is really not very difficult to do -- anyone even remotely handy can do it -- but is certain to exclude any number of reasonably priced safety features already standard on existing saws. Yet another example of our nanny-state government doing things it has zero business doing.
Unfortunately you can’t fix stupid. Fact is ANYONE can go buy this saw and use it with zero training. I personally am more than willing to spend $200 extra for the safety feature, it’s less than I would pay just to get in the emergency room. With more people producing the feature hopefully price will drop.
That is likely true, but the blade guards specifically present challenges and safety hazards of their own. They don't allow for good vision of the process, they restrict the thickness of th material you can rip or cross cut, and they restrict the ability to use the saw to its full potential.
@@somethingsomethingsomethingdar been using saws of ALL types for 5 decades....NEVER had an accident or injury!! Safety is simple and being aware. If you don't use "push-sticks" et al...then it's YOUR FAULT!! And you'd probably stop the blade while electrocuting yourself!! What you going to do then?! Blame Al Gore for forcing you to ONLY use electricity that is DANGEROUS, DEADLY and the DIRTIEST form of energy to produce? Or maybe go back to handsaws only. But you'd be the kinda kid that would STILL cut their arm off!! LOL PS : NOBODY should use ANY equipment without proper training. That takes all of 5 minutes with a table saw!
Neighbor who's a carpenter has been home for a few weeks I noticed, his truck hasn't moved. Chatted with him today - he cut off the tip of his thumb and has been off like 6 week with more to go. 40 years in the trade and previously he only had lost a little chunk off his other thumb - this time a significant chunk from the other hand. He says that the guards don't allow for many cuts so the first thing they do is throw them away. His boss is now buying saw stop equipment!
It's not inevitable that you will have an injury. It's like car accidents being much more likely near your home, as you're driving on muscle memory in your own territory and aren't paying attention like you would elsewhere. When you use a table saw every day, you might be just as complacent going through the motions without thinking about it. The vast majority of carpenters and woodworkers who use a table saw regularly don't experience an injury
@@histguy101 True, but it seems that maybe some sort of seatbelt might reduce injuries? I’m not sure sawstop is the answer but it would’ve saved my neighbor from being maimed.
@@histguy101 Nope, it's not inevitable. My neighbor has used his over 20 years with just two accidents and this was the worst. for a few bucks though he wouldn't be maimed and his company is now making sure it won't happen to anyone else. I think SawStop shouldn't have the only solution, we'll see.
@@BLKMGK4 I think it would need to be a different method than the exploding cartridge that Sawstop uses. Sawstop is great for a shop setting for a woodworker or cabinet maker, but a job site saw is used for all sorts of materials that a sawstop cannot cut, such as wet treated lumber, composite decking, aluminum siding, soffit, flashing, even vinyl, etc. If the Sawstop exploding cartridge was installed on all table saws, contractors would be forced to switch to other methods to cut such things. On the other hand, table saws, circular saws, and miter saws have gotten a lot safer in the last couple years. They now almost all have a soft start and brake now. Sawstop will stop instantly, but a good brake will still stop the blade in about 1 second.
@@histguy101 I agree that the stop using a cartridge is probably not best, I've heard they can false too. His boss bought a couple of those SawStop saws but I don't know yet how well they work as he's still not able to go back to the job :( Hopefully something better can be found but a 1 second stop is probably too slow for many injuries. He said he only felt a quick flash of pain and his thumb was a mess :(
Already way ahead of this I'm using a radial arm saw from 1968 and its extremely safe if you have the right blade and you know what you're doing. U can get them way cheaper than one of those little table saws too (sometimes free)
I had a radial arm saw. It is just as dangerous as a table saw but in a little different way. I believe most people do not understand that a zero hook blade must be used to reduce the possibility of kickback.
Listen carefully to what the CPSC "expert" said at 12:13. Read what Sawstop's website has on it's home page: "In the United States alone, over 65,000 people are victims of table saw accidents each year. The impact on the victim is substantial and in some ways immeasurable. OSHA estimates that the cost to a business of a single amputation is more than $130,000 on average. But these numbers do not take into account the pain of the accident, the ER visit, the surgeries and years of physical therapy." Tell me they're not in bed with each other.
"Victims." Nice wording. That's like hitting your thumb with a hammer and blaming the hammer. Everyone is trying to be a victim. How about you just learn how to use a table saw correctly? I'm 75 years old. I've been using table saws since I was 15. I still have all 10 fingers and have never had a table saw accident. I respect the tool and make sure everything I do with it is done safely. It's just not all that difficult.
I think the regulators should be required to go into a shop and actually use the tools they regulate, or at least participate in a lab exercises to show the reality of implementation of these new laws. Reality is a wonderful teacher. One thing not brought up is that we need to return Woodshop to high schools. It is overlooked that Woodshop not only trains future carpenters and craftsman, but teaches those going into management what it takes to actually turn materials into a product.
There are some professional carpenters that do not use a table saw. I think it is a lot more common in Europe where space is at a premium. They use a workbench and a track saw. Festool sells a table top for this.
I'm almost at that point where I can retire and work at a school wood shop, show them my cuts on my fingers and yell YOU'LL CUT YOUR FINGERS OFF! That should scare them. ;-) But then again, I'll probably have to use a sawstop enabled machine. (I'll still yell though, LOL)
Being a Small Woodshop Business Owner... I'm worried that insurance companies would force us to have these in our shops and/or may not cover employee injuries that are not using the new technology. My first thought was that I need to buy 2 more cabinet saws immediately before they force this, but then thought about insurance and may want to see if I need to replace the ones I already have...
It seems to me that if SawStop instigated this push to "protect people from injury" (how public spirited of them), they ought to be public spirited enough to give their technology away RATHER than seeking to compel everyone to adopt it. How much money does the president of SawStop actually need?
At the point Volvo developed the seat belt, they were already making money by selling cars. Saw Stop initially only wanted to sell their tech, but since nobody wanted to pay they resorted to building saws with it... And lobbying to enact a safety law.
I'm from the government and I'm here to help..... Well here we go once again...legislating saftey is like legislating intelligence...you can only do so much to protect folks from themselves
It's the Dunning Krueger effect. The dumbest people think they're the smartest and the government has to protect them from themselves. The very people arguing to let them do what they want are the ones who benefit the most from these rules. Survival of the fittest would have eliminated them a long time ago if the government wasn't protecting them.
Thanks for all the time and effort you put into this video. I have 2 points to add. 1 - The government is notoriously bad at underestimating the cost of proposed regulations. Expect the additional cost of the first revised saws to be 2x the government's high estimates. 2 - As soon as the new reg takes effect there will be a huge shortage of the new saws available for sale. Just like the huge shortages of electric vehicle roadside chargers and drone remote ID modules because government pushed new technology too fast.
Just buy a Sawstop -they are available at every woodcraft store and lots of other online retailers. The other saw makers put themselves into this situation. This situation was very clear in 2003!
I expect that the larger manufacturers already have designs that have the AIM features. And possibly the molds and tooling to install into a new saw frame for all types of table saws.
I love your channel and follow you closely. I don't share your faith perspective but absolutely love your channel. I am an educator and you knock it out of the park in your easy to follow instructions and engaging content. Kudos to you. You evidently put a great deal of time and thought into your productions and its shows. I've seen your growth and I've relied on your reviews. I even purchased a Milwaukee track saw after watching your review, excellent. I have to respectfully say that we all need to put guards on our table saws. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 30,000 table saw incidents a year and 4,000 amputations. They say about 10 table saw accidents a day in the US, concerning to say the least. Blade guards are a challenge. Yes they are a pain, no you can't keep them on for all operations, yes they take time to take off and put on, and yes, they save fingers. I totally get that you don't want to add to the cost of table saws. I taught in a middle school and they were required to have a blade guard on their table saw. I do feel that those influencers that operate their saws without a guard are sending the wrong message. Thanks for presenting both sides. Please keep in mind that most of the regulations that keep us safe, food, cars, travel, air quality, etc., have always come at a cost that businesses has fought tooth and nail. Take the long view and keep in mind that we want to do everything that we can to keep woodworkers, and budding woodworkers, our sons and daughters, to be safe in the shop. Keep those great videos coming. All my best.
The technologies will only be as good as those users who do not disable them. As your lawyer friend stated, he watches many videos of folks with the blade guards and such taken off of them. I would question how many of the injured people in their studies did the same. They'll start requiring air bags on hammers next...;)
I’m on job sires every day. This week we had 30 degree weather followed by 70 degree weather with rain. Condensation was dripping from everything. How is this tech going to hold up in these conditions?
It wont. I've personally burnt though 7 sawstops cutting damp wood, and with the price of replacement cartridges I decided I was better off buying a saw without it.
It won't. But don't worry. The fine folks at Sawstop will really enjoy the new yacht you're helping to pay for, and the folks on that safety committee who have never used a power tool in their miserable lives will get a warm fuzzy sense of superiority for protecting us from ourselves.
I think the worst injuries occur when you grab the work piece past the blade and get a kickback that forces your hand into the blade at high speed. You can't let go of the workpiece fast enough is the problem. I don't think a lot of people just push their own fingers into the blade from the front side.
Met a middle aged and well established cabinet maker who lost 1/2 the length of two fingers pushing stock through a table saw. He then showed me his other hand that had the same two fingers trimmed the same amount.
@@mckenziekeith7434it good to be careful, but this guy was (possibly) an idiot. He did it twice to the same fingers on each hand. He’d probably do it a third time if he had another
If it were left up to companies ... we would all be working 7/12 and living in company towns and perpeturally in debt to them. Not against mandating safety. Companies won't do it.
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. Will OSHA rules could shut us down if we don't comply.
Any time the government gets involved in damned near anything it usually screws it up royally. Why? Because: 1.). Most bureaucrats have never used the equipment or run a business. Most of these clowns are career bureaucrats, similar to a career politician. 2.). Most of the bureaucrats are corrupt. Possibly taking payments from manufacturer. Take politicians, how do you become a congressperson or senator and wind up being a millionaire? 3.) Some bureaucrats are in someone’s pocket. 4.). Ms. Kari Lake has, candidate for Senator from AZ, exposed the corruption from the AZ state republican committee as she was offered bribes from Mr. DeWit. Let the gov’t in and it will be screwed up.
Any time the government gets involved in damned near anything it usually screws it up royally. Why? Because: 1.). Most bureaucrats have never used the equipment or run a business. Most of these clowns are career bureaucrats, similar to a career politician. 2.). Most of the bureaucrats are corrupt. Possibly taking payments from manufacturer. Take politicians, how do you become a congressperson or senator and wind up being a millionaire? 3.) Some bureaucrats are in someone’s pocket. 4.). Ms. Kari Lake has, candidate for Senator from AZ, exposed the corruption from the AZ state republican committee as she was offered bribes from Mr. DeWit. Let the gov’t in and it will be screwed up.
There is a broader issue where patents in general whose infringement is in the significant public interest should be limited in some way to the collection of reasonable fees.
@@michaelgleason4791 There are rare exceptions but Generally the answer is don't do it. It takes very deep pockets to defend a patent from others including any who may initially agree to pay royalties. The idea that ideas are cheap has been around in some from for a very long time. The Wright brothers spent a significant amount of time and resources on legal battles regarding their patents, which could have been directed towards further innovation and development. Most patents are owned by corporations. Patents in the modern world can be viewed as trading cards. Corporations have large stacks of them. Now and then lawyers sit down and make some trades. Cross licensing. They guy with one idea, regardless of how many times he patented it, generally can not play the game. He and his investors who hope to sell or collect royalties generally go broke. Outsiders alter the tech to avoid your patent, out lawyer you, or simply wait for yours to expire.
Patents that are turned into standards and the Patentee was involved in the standard setting process must be licensed on FRAND terms. That is "fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory" terms. Meaning, they cannot license to some competitors and not others, if they were part of the standard setting process.
My first thought is how many accidents this will cause from the beginner who can’t afford the newer saws using unsafe methods and techniques to save money.
Think of all the portable saws that could be used in the unsafe manner and put on sawhorses or tables or shelving. By design is just so much more secure by any tablesaw even the cheap ones. If you make it too expensive to do it the right way, there’s no limit to the stupidity of mankind to get it done anyway with the wrong tools and equipment. Me, for the difference in price I would just go for a basic panel saw, or a large format CNC . Yes, I realize that table saws are used for a lot more than sheet goods but that and small parts that you shouldn’t have your fingers near the blade anyway that’s where most of the accidents happen.. And then you’re pushing people towards bandsaw with no blade protection for small parts.
For a while OSHA required carpenters to use gloves around table saws. They quit doing that when they learned saws could drag people's hands into them when people wore gloves.
We implement and mandate certain safety features to mitigate those expect misuses, such as seat belts, airbags, circuit breakers, GFCIs, auto-retracting syringes, child-resistant caps, etc.
@@sonicpsycho13Are you saying people don't disconnect their seat belt sensors or air bag sensors... Child safety caps don't keep children out of anything... It keeps the elderly people out...
@tog4867 so you're saying that since a tiny number of people are willing to disable car safety features, then these things shouldn't be mandated, where the passive inclusion from the consumer side saves lives? Oh, and studies show that since the mandate of child-resistant caps, child poisonings have decreased by 40%. That's what we call "effective." Keeping elderly people with dementia from harming themselves is an added bonus. Would you reverse the mandates on GFCIs, circuit breakers, building codes? Some people remove the grounding prong on plugs, are you saying that devices with potential electrocution risk shouldn't be mandated to have a ground just because a few idiots choose to bypass the safety mechanism? Note that the vast majority of don't and will never know this stuff and it's unreasonable to expect them to learn it.
I have been teaching Wood Shop at the HS level for more than 2 decades. We run 2 Sawstop ICS. I teach these student how to safely operate these Table Saws just like I operate my $50 Craftsman at home. There are not blade accidents. Use a fence, guard, sliding miter gauge, push sticks, etc. If there was truly a concern for safety, there would be Wood Shop class mandated, this would help
I’m a self employed carpenter. Every accident I’ve seen has happened using old tools with missing pieces dull blades. I had to have a partial amputation on my left thumb because the contractor I was working for was cheap. He didn’t have workmen’s comp on me or anything. He kept using the same saw, and refused to replace it. That’s when I said enough was enough. My point is, replace tools that are unsafe. I won’t even sale it to someone else. I destroy it and pitch them.
One other point to note: Table saws can last 50 years or more so the existing saws could be around for a very long time because you can't develop an aftermarket device that drops the blade, it is a design problem. Yard sale saws will be around for a long time. I still see saws that are 40 or more years old all the time at estate sales.
I agree, safety should MY responsibility not the government's. I had the honor to work with a highly experienced master woodworker that was quite frank about why he had two fingers that were shorter than standard length. His lesson was "never stop thinking, and never do anything without a plan." This was just slightly before SawStop was a thing. He was a guy that could certainly afford the tech that would have saved his fingers, but I couldn't. Instead, I am ALWAYS thinking about safety and planning how I'm going to do every operation before I do it. Anything makes me feel nervous, I adjust or use another method. Truth is yes we can have safer equipment, but two things, you can never replace the need for safety tool number one to be the brain. Second, you will never get around the used market, or the substitution of other less suitable tools. Will we see manufacturers working around it by other innovation, like making a table saw style tool using a reciprocating blade, or something like a "table bandsaw?" Or worse, some of the stuff we've all seen on youtube promoting really janky and unsafe techniques will continue to proliferate.
60 year 10 fingertips cabinet maker here... You are ENTIRELY CORRECT. I clear my mind fully, don't allow people to hang out while I'm working, and piss my wife off eternally everytime she tries starting a conversation whenever I'm working. One only needs to hit in the chest once by a sheet of flying 3/4 ply to understand there's no daydreaming in woodworking.
I appreciate the fact that you presented positives, negatives, and constructive criticism. You could have easily just moaned and groaned throughout the video like some commenters are.
I really liked the idea by the lawyer you consulted that there be an implementing technology package negotiated as part of implementing this. Then they would know at least what the technology fees would be before they go forward. It would also stop SawStop from playing more games - they would have the government watching at least and they could refuse to move forward if the "deal" was clearly inappropriate. I am not sure that SawStop technology meets the proposed rule, however. They have the data and should know. I triggered my PCS in a kickback situation using a 3/4 dado stack and got a broken bone and several stitches. I think the wound was more than 3.5mm deep. Kickbacks are going to be the tough situation for a rule like this because your body is moving into the blade so fast. I don't think SawStop is being honest in their claim that they have always prevented a serious injury. I think mine was serious and I'm sure there have been others.
So what about all other blade injuries. Are they gonna do this to stick blenders how I cut part of my finger off or chop saws how my son lost half his hand. I think they are lying on those tablesaw injuries I can guarantee this will not lower injuries and people with crafty minds are just gonna find a work around lol
My number one question is of those 65K+ amputations, how many were because of blatant stupidity? Anyone can be reasonably safe, and still get injured, but we all know that there are many people who just don't take proper precautions for any number of reasons. While some injuries can occur even when the user is careful, we don't need laws because some people can't be bothered to be careful. This is a waste of our taxes. I want my money back. I have no issue with forcing companies to be reasonably safe in their designs. I do have a problem with forcing companies to add nanny features that are designed to keep people from getting Darwin awards. I'm glad I already have a cabinet saw. Also, used saw market will go way up.
Until someone gets cute and sues because they bought a used saw and got hurt. I'd also expect that if this goes then right after will come a new line in workers comp policies saying you have to have said functions or you arent covered and I'm sure OSHA would be happy to make it policy as well. I don't buy for a second that they won't use strategies to implement it retroactively even if not overtly. Think of the damage to the construction and woodworking industries if everyone needs to replace equipment with new technology with limited or rushed development that causes demand to accelerate beyond manufacturing and prices become insane, prices already ripping North on inflation. If the government wants to buy the patents and such and pay the cost then go ahead and do it. If not, the technology is there and available. Why is it that they tell me they want me to be safer but at my own financial injury, when they put small businesses out of business people won't be eating, that seems unsafe too.
Lawsuit over a used table saw lacking modern safety equipment will go nowhere because if the used table saw is operated safely it is every bit as safe as a saw with this tech built in. just about every injury that happens with a table saw is user error. Also just like you can't sue because you got injured in a car crash in a 60s model car without airbags which of course was never even a thing you can't sue because you bought a used saw that lacks modern safety devices. It is the users responsibility to buy a saw with the added safety if they want it. I could see OSHA going after big manufacturing to adopt something like this but in a very small personal or family type business OSHA is irrelevant. which is a good thing as requiring something like this could make them close shop. I'm glad I actually have my 30+ year old Craftsman table saw which I'm in the process of tuning up right now. The thing is a cast iron tank and with what I"m putting into it it will be working another 30+ years long after saws with this tech are in the scrap pile! LOL
As a Professional 60+ years No accidents, woodworker , thanks but no thanks for allowing the "safety" Police to ruin everything. The simple enjoyment I get from consciously handling and seeing wood being cut is to be replaced by safety mandates . Our Children can no longer play outside. Our Children no longer Can talk to people in person, etc etc .........
@@9avedon I don’t make the rules nor was I supporting them. The number of injuries is staggering don’t you think. Why don’t you go after the guy with the technology that has blocked everyone else from making safe use of saws easy and price competitive?
Small wood shops are not the problem.Eliminating all potential harm has made young people so Fragile in the real world the suicide rate has skyrocket way up well over100% @@sailingarista
Great video Matt! It is good to hear a balanced presentation regarding potential government mandated safety requirements. Like most complex problems, solutions are complicated. BTW, I can't remember if the video addressed it or not but there is also the added cost to repair the saw when the AIM mechanism is triggered. Great RUclips channel. I look forward to seeing great content by a good guy!
Repair the saw? If the saw (outside the AIM system) needs repair, the saw's design needs to be revised. In the SawStop system, the braking cartridge and the blade needs to be replaced after each triggered stop. In the Bosch system, only the braking cartridge needs to be replaced, and only after 2 triggered stops since it is reversible.
@@davidseslar5798 That is the definition of repairing the saw. The saw will not work unless those parts are replaced and the saw is repaired. This repair is not free. The blade is not free and the AIM module is not free.
@@bretwood9779 Uh . . . Replacing consumables does not constitute a repair in my book. I don't "repair" a drill if I replace a broken or dull drill bit, or "repair" a reciprocating saw if I replace a bent blade. The drill and recip saw are not broken in the absence of useable consumables. Circular saw blades and AIM cartridges are consumables.
Great video! Thanks. I don't think that SAWSTOP would allow other saws to be at, or below, their price. They currently own the "safe" market. They can charge whatever they want under the guise of safety. They lose that "niche" they currently have. I expect all saws to go to 900 or better.
I think the government should also regulate nose picking. Sometimes if a nose is picked too hard, it bleeds, causing an increase in telehealth visits and clogging up the Interweb's bandwidth. It also leads to paper towel and tissue abuse, increasing the sustainability crisis and adding unnecessarily to landfill overuse.
Underlying all of this I wonder if decision makers in the government believe that the use of dangerous equipment should be left the the "professionals" or the "experts" so as to bar individuals and small business from access. Maybe it means that only much larger corporations are considered accountable and therefore maybe only larger corporations should have access. Ultimately I think that the market should decide! Individuals should have access and government should keep their nose out of it. By the way I agree the HE does matter! I love your sweater/shirt that you were wearing in the video!
I have an ICS SawStop. I bought it almost 11 years ago and about 34 years after cutting half of my left thumb off. I would not hesitate to replace this saw, I DO NOT want the chance to be human and make a mistake again. I was cutting dado's and cut half my thumb after turning the saw off. The SawStop would have prevented that. There are many safety rules but they do not cover every possible situation. The price you pay for a SawStop pales to the cost of a trip to the ER, not to mention losing a digit or worse. And finally my thumb, after about 10 years, was no longer sensitive to normal activity. You don't just heal and that is it, you have nerve damage and pain for many years. My SawStop is my 3rd TS. I do manufacture a lot of custom furniture. Food for thought.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Love your content. In looking at history of government mandating things like health and car insurance laws, our costs have risen more than 10 fold or more. It always benefits the INSURANCE companies. The cost of medical treatment has nothing to do with hospitals and doctors who get about 40% of that estimate ( bill 1000 and receive 400). This is about health and disability INSURANCE companies not wanting to pay for what YOU pay them for.... Union shops will all have to retool and either go out of business or charge CONSUMERS even more for furniture and other wood working products. What about band saws, chop saws, nail guns, hand held drills and razors. What about the deadly hammer. When your TIRED and FATIGUED or in a RUSH job, you make more mistakes. My brother makes great custom wood cabinets and furniture and has cut himself several times, because he is to comfortable with the tools and thinks he won't get hurt. I agree the costs will go up FAR more with a law mandating this and product licensing. Saw Stop will say they cannot keep up with demand and supplies are running short, so we have to raise the costs a lot more than those figures. Saw stop standard and dado cartridge is currently $100 to 140 plus blade replacement if needed. Replacement saw stop blades will rise in cost at first by 20%, then 20% more, then 20% more. (100=120, 120=144, 144=172.8) if not more and that will be in the first year. Saw stop tables run from $899 to $4000 dollars with tax. Add $1000 to if this passes. Problem is Current safety features on saws get removed , because they get in the way of some cuts needed and if you use a slid table. Why, because they take to much time to remove and replace, and we are lazy to put them back. How much work / time does it to switch between a standard and dado?? Question, does your shop close down until replacement blades arrive???????? I believe this will open a door for insurance companies to raise rates so high that you will HAVE to buy these products, thus more of your freedoms gone in the name of safety. Answer is lower blade, slow down, use safety devices you have like anti kick bask and blades guards, use receiving tables, good dust collection and safety for eyes and lungs etc. Does everyone put roll ages in their cars and wear helmets and fire proof suits when driving kids to school, NOPE. The 60000 hand injures are probably not all table saw, they may include other saws, but there are 6 million car accidents a year, that means almost 6 million injures, so should we have to by fire proof our rubber tanks to drive?? and wear racing gear like race car drivers.??? No new laws needed, no new taxes ever needed.!!!!!!!! God bless you all and keep making cool wood products.
if what you say is true, then how do you explain minimum loss ratio requirements for insurance companies? if the insurance companies are booking as claims, and as you say hospitals/providers aren't getting that money, then where is it going? is it all just outright fraud?
I don't think they are all tablesaws either. We had two major blade injuries in our family last year. Chop saw n blender blade. I think they are padding their numbers. Kinda like they did covid lol
If the government wants to require this, but not create a monopoly then just deny all the patent extensions. I think that safety reasons is a good justification for not extending the patents. I was thinking early in the video that this is probably being pushed by the insurance industry. I wonder if CPSC doesn’t make it mandatory will the insurance companies put a clause or something in the policies that if you get injured with a power tool that has safety technology available on the market and your tool doesn’t have it then they don’t have to cover you for that injury.
If entry level saws will get too expensive, many people will buy even unsafer older saws from various marketplaces which often lack simple things like riving knifes or blade guards. Some other may get creative and build their own with upside down mounted track saws. A safety feature is pretty much welcomed, but it needs to be very affordable for beginner. They can put it better versions in more expensive saws.
I can't make the inventor of Saw Stop's tech out to be the bad guy here, they did try to get it passed almost 20 yrs. ago. This being said, I have a friend who lost the tip of his finger to a "contractor" type saw a few years ago and he'll tell you he'll tell you that he took his concentration off his work. IMO the table saw is just like any other piece of equipment. The second you take away your concertation from it your going to lose. I spent over 43 years in the construction trades, and I had my fair share of "mishaps" but never had one accident with a table or worm drive saw. What is needed is some sort of course on using any and all equipment. I was "lucky" that I went through the apprentice program for 4 years and safety was the biggest part of the program. Pay attention to what you're doing and you'll bring the chance of injury way down.
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. In addition to cost of table saw. Will OSHA rules could shut us down if we don't comply.
I saw my first table saw amputation as a medical student. All four fingers and half his thumb. I have never found anyone since that wouldn’t give $1,000 or much,much, more to have those digits back. I also think you need to look at the increased cost of a saw as an amortized investment. How long does a saw last? Who doesn’t have a buddy using his dad’s or even grandfather’s saw. If you have a saw that lasts only 5 years, the monthly increase is peanuts. A quality table saw will outlast you. For me, the economics work. I bought a used Sawstop at the end of 2020 from someone who changed jobs. Another thought about medical costs-the uninsured. Someone has to pay the bill, and we all pay to cover those who can’t. There is a societal benefit to lessening these gruesome injuries, not just litigation costs. If the market loses cheaper, more dangerous saws, those are not likely American manufacturers, so the cost to American workers is less. Sometimes the right thing happens, despite the government being involved. I’d rather invest in saving someone’s fingers that padding a company’s bottom line.
I use push sticks and paddles as much as possible, After I make a cut I power off the saw left handed, my right hand stays frozen on the work piece till the blade completely stops. Have a off feed table in place to catch your work, disconnect power cord when setting rip fence, changing blade.
Lost the tip of my finger on a stick blender. Are they gonna mandate this tech on them too. How about meat slicers , band saws, skil saws, or every thing with a blade. It should never be mandatory nor should safety devices be completely relied on. That's when real mistakes happen
I recently bought a Saw Stop as an upgrade and my complacency has not changed one bit. I know what it is supposed to know but how do you know for sure until it happens? Trying my best not to let the saw show how it works.
Click "Read more" to see all of the links and tools referenced.
Watch Next: Real Lawyer Reacts to SawStop Patent MYTHS: ruclips.net/video/EZ6yGis38R4/видео.html
Tools in this Video:
Table Saws I Have Used and Recommend:
Budget Option 1 - amzn.to/3SfUdXc
Budget Option 2 - amzn.to/3vGDKUj
Mid Tier Option - www.lowes.com/pd/DELTA-Contractor-Saws-10-in-Carbide-Tipped-Blade-15-Amp-Table-Saw/1001385562
Best Table Saw I've Used - amzn.to/3U8ZIJW
Push Block I Recommend for Safety - amzn.to/3OeCpug
Table Saw Push Stick - amzn.to/3OfQOXg
Hoodie I'm Wearing: www.glorifyhimgear.com/collections/frontpage
Why He Matters: story4.us/731Woodworks
Reference Documents and Videos:
CPSC Minutes and Letters to Companies - www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/Comm-Mtg-Min-TableSaws-SupplementalNPR-Decisional.pdf?VersionId=JizUyNt5p7KDR_svKn2O6ql9VkHIR2E8
CPSC Proposed Rule: www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/11/01/2023-23898/safety-standard-addressing-blade-contact-injuries-on-table-saws
CPCS Meeting: ruclips.net/video/X_lXewpfcZc/видео.htmlsi=mHLDEOc9lqHo6n6U
Felder Group and SawStop Response Letters - www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/COPF%20Table%20Saw%20Comment%20Extension%20%20Statement.pdf?VersionId=qg77Xf6lj0wlswefq6wB.uYnqicUAPCp
Email Chain from TTS (SawStop) www.regulations.gov/document/CPSC-2011-0074-1350
Felder Group Response to Commissioner Feldman - www.regulations.gov/document/CPSC-2011-0074-1364
All Supporting Documents related to CPSC Proposal on Table Saw Safety - www.regulations.gov/docket/CPSC-2011-0074/document?documentTypes=Supporting%20%26%20Related%20Material&sortBy=postedDate
The full list of tools and supplies I recommend can be found on my website: www.731woodworks.com/recommended-tools
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Can't we just all pinky-promise not to touch the sharp, spinny part?
A feeder option added to any shop table saw with adjustable height would keep finger out of the way. I have full details drawn up in crayon. LOL This is much better, cheaper and works with any table saw with feeder table and receiving table needed. Add dust collection to top. This idea works except for when crazy wood workers turn their table saws into lathes or other creative tools or use slid tables. I wonder how many de-gloving injures happen with lathes and other rotating devices.??
Bro, if this gets passed I'm immediately a SawStop hater and i'll explain why.
They fought for the mandate, to have their technology to be in every tablesaw. If they release the patent for free, or at a VERY affordable rate for the manufacturers, then I'm okay with that, however if they don't, it was only a company trying to get rich by kicking out all of their competition, examples being Bosch getting sued.
If their point is for everyone to be safe, be like Volvo, side note Volvo invented the 3 point safety harness seat belt, and released the patent to every auto manufacturer because it was the safest thing, and every car owner deserved that. If we're going into the same thing with tablesaws, then SawStop can be awesome, or they can be money hungry. It'll be interesting to see which way they go.
I said almost the same thing in my reply below. I know every time a law is past it costs us more and takes away freedoms and rights. How about a wood feeder that covers a saw blade that adjusts in height which can be added to any current table including a saw stop. Also, that $30000 dollar table is awesome and will get after I win the lottery. LOL@@douggauthier4768
Big sales coming :)))
If SawStop is petitioning for this technology, then part of the rule should be that SawStop must release all their patents related to injury mitigation into the public domain.
If they did that watch how fast this would go away.
I posted longer, The base patents are about to go into public domain. At this point bosh dewalt etc…. Want the access to the tech without licensing, or non aim competition. Pass the legislation, the 2004 sawstop model will be public domain, any technology directly copied from it is fair game, even if later patented (that’s just gaming the system). And the 2004 sawstop level of protection or something reasonably close to it 3.5mm? I think was mentioned. And I agree, the Bosh competing technology should be unfettered unless it directly copies later improvements. Now a licensing schedule allowing copy of later models if sawstop improved should be implemented. Maybe $10 for a machine 15+ years old, $20 for machines 10 years old, $50 dollars for a machine 5 years old. But every tablesaw made by a company will be assessed that level of royalty. Same law/reg and fee structure applied to Bosch react and any other comp. Tech And yeah…. A $10 dollar fee for every tablesaw. Maybe just the base $10 fee at 20 years old, and clearing impediments if any from later patents on same tech. As a thankyou for the drastic improvement in perpetuity. 1 dollar for all research in last 20 years… if there was any significant is ridiculous…. IMO. REAL IMPROVEMENTS IF ANY SHOULD BE REWARDED. Patenting a fastener with a special name that was there and not mentioned in 1999-2004 in 2020 if such a thing happened should not extend protection for 20 years because the brake is useless without it…. Just an example of patent crap seen previous decades on other products, where good idea was buried in flurry of other patents that weren’t innovations. Sawstop having 140+ patents with 110+ pending…. I have no knowledge how many might be BS DESIGNED TO PREVENT COPYING THE 2004 machine.
If sawstop were behind it they are not going to admit it. It would mean they're either trying to procure a defacto monopoly on table saw sales or they want to tax every machine sold by a competitor. Both those are contrary to the public interest so they wouldn't want anyone to know that and no commissioner would want to appear part of such a scheme.
If they wanted to license their patents they could do it today. Safe to say that's not what they're after.
But I'm not sure this has anything to do with them. They could have the ear of a commissioner or two, for sure.
@@BadSpock Gass has publicly admitted to it. He's not hiding it at all. How he approached the other tools companies, how they turned down his high pricing demand which then turned into him creating his own table saw company is all public knowledge. Him petitioning to make it a requirement is also well known. He's very open about being this kind of person.
@@JDCraeyes that is what he initially tried to but then he productized sawstop. That is not necessarily his current strategy.
This is SawStop’s wet dream. They’ve been lobbying for this for ages.
Maybe, but with their patents slowly expiring, they won't be getting the monopoly advantage they were lobbying for.
Exactly! What BS!
They've made a significant contribution to the industry, so it will be temporary so nothing to worry about. I don't agree it should be permanent, which is clear it won't be as it would be too obvious
@@NathanSpaeththey are working on extending the patents. He is a greedy money grabber.
@@bigbob9702 Bingo. He sued and reached a settlement with Bosch which is rumored to pay a big sum for holding off even when the patent is up.
Decades ago when I started reading about Mr. Gass strong-arming manufacturers and demanding legislation to require his invention, the whole thing really soured me. I could smell greed underneath it all, and I still feel that way today.
I've been a professional carpenter for 43 years. I have been using a Powermatic 66 cabinet saw in my shop since 1990. I have trained myself from the get-go to do two things when I use it:
1. NEVER allow my hands ANYWHERE NEAR that moving blade. That's what a pair of sacrificial push sticks are for, and I've destroyed many of them.
2. Always anticipate where that missile will travel if the wood you're cutting should pinch against the fence or somehow catch in the saw teeth and be thrown straight back. Standing to one side of the line of travel is key.
I smell monopoly coming due to hapless legislators who think it is their duty to regulate the issue without truly taking into consideration all sides of the problem. Much of it is user's failure to learn proper safety techniques before hitting the on switch.
If the bureaucrats want to do something helpful, limit the licensing fee to $1.00 and call it a day. They should also overturn the restriction on Bosch's approach as an anti-monopoly move while they're at it. Gass has had his day in the sun... lets move along.
Maybe it is greed. Maybe it was capitalism (ie. the American Way). Maybe he cares that tens of thousands of people have gotten severe injuries every year that cost a lot of money. Far more than the cost to manufacture. You have survivors bias. I have heard your same statement... from people now missing a digit. So limiting the "licensing fee to $1.00" is anti-capitalism. I have seen the SawStop in action - both on a hot dog and on a hand. It works perfectly. For $200 you don't loose a finger. I hear a lot of anti-capitalism talk here trying to limit how much an inventor, how has invested their on time and money in inventing.
I see the saw manufacturers also trying to save a buck and sell dangerous tools that consumers may not have much experience with.
As for saw lightness, there are portable SawStop's. They work great.
Well he's an "attorney" so. . .
I'm also wondering if his "early life" checks out but I can't find anything on him.
Please send this to the CPSC.
If Gass wanted everyone to be safer, he would relinquish his patents. It’s that simple. But forcing everyone to license it from him is just greed. He’s a piece of shit.
So you've been using the same table saw for over 20 years. My thought with even a contractor table top saw is they're pretty reliable, simple to maintain devices that can last for years. This tech is going to make them much more complicated and more maintenance intensive, likely substantially shortening the service life.
In 7th grade shop class, we had zero injuries using table saws and band saws and all sorts of dangerous tools. The reason was simple our shop teacher took safety seriously. Our hands and fingers were never allowed within 6 inches of the blade. If you want to reduce injuries education is the key! The end user has an obligation to themselves and their families to practice safety measures. If a bunch of 7th graders with a good teacher can avoid these kinds of injuries the majority of adults should be able to do the same. If they want to make table saws safer PSAs are how the government should be doing it. Use something other than your figures and hands when guiding the wood close to the blade. If you don't have something official use off cuts of wood or other barriers, it's that simple.
7th graders fear the saw. It's contractors with thousands of hours operating them that end up in the hospital. It is very hard to avoid complacency, especially when we historically have prioritized efficiency over safety.
Personal accountability is all but dead. The last thing anyone should want is govt to help, just look what their "help" did to gas cans.
Well said! This is the training/education I gave my son before he was allowed to use the table saw or any other tools in our shop for that matter.
@@MrBeame How can you legislate away idiocy? I feel bad for a contractor that removes a finger, but you know the dangers. You know the safety procedures. You ignored them.
@@cycleboy8028 I agree with other comments that this seems more appropriately targeted for industrial applications where accidents are more likely to come from hourly employees trying to meet quotas. I do however expect that an idiot with a table saw is likely an idiot without health coverage, which is something we all pay for.
Back in the late 90s and early 2000s I worked for both Powermatic prior to the WMH purchase and then at Porter Cable/Delta through the Dewalt purchase. Steven Gass approached every manufacturer prior to starting SawStop in 2000 wanting to license the technology. There has always been two problems with this the first you rightly point out is that every manufacturers' legal department determined that they'd have to license this technology for every model of saw they make. For Delta we had maybe 20 different models and that license fee alone exceeded the retail cost of many of the benchtop and low end contractor saws. The second is that the license fee that Gass wanted was so cost prohibitive - not including the design and manufacturing cost increase - that any manufacturer other than Saw Stop who offered this technology wouldn't sell a single saw. The result of course is that nobody did. Then, just as now, in my opinion Gass had little interest in safety and is only interested in the revenue stream licensing would create as is evidenced by Saw Stop's continued litigation to extend the relevant patents timeline. If safety were the primary motivation then the required license fee would have been at a level the market and manufacturers could bear.
Equally, then and now in my opinion, the manufacturers making table saws have little interest in safety and are only interested in their market share and profits. If safety were a significant motivation, they would cease the race to the bottom in an effort to shed sufficient features and further abandon quality construction so as to undercut their competitors on price.
You know Gass did create a better mouse trap, and he should be compensated as significantly as his technology has completely alter the safety profile for an inherently dangerous piece of a equipment.
I believe the manufacturing equipment industry really dropped the ball of this issue.
I am absolutely not a safety nazi. But after a close call with my table saw, I realized that it would be a matter of time before I received a significant injury. My life is already complicated enough, and by loosing a finger or two with all the medical expenses, the use of my saw just wasn't worth it.
Presently saving up for a sawstop product.
The company I worked for, used Powermatic saws for years. Our safety department had been contacted by Saw Stop and offered to install their unit for free, looking for future sales and bragging rights in advertising.
The majority of our table saw use was cutting lab test samples of graphite composites, to our blades were sintered diamond coated. Average blade was over $500.
The worst condition (clogged from overheated epoxy resin) blade was chosen as the test dummy as well as a package of hot dogs. As soon as the hot dog touched the blade, bam, the saw came to a stop, but all the debris thrown off left a cloud of graphite dust and some small pieces of fiberglass from other samples.
The replacement "puck" if I recall was a couple hundred dollars and the blade was trashed.
It might have been a upgrade if we used a conventional saw blade, but sintered diamond leaves you with a burn mark on the digit that touched the blade. Most of the time, it doesn't even bleed, as the wound is cauterized.
@@davidseslar5798so you hire out a Profesional driver driving the highest trims of mercadies? If not your endangering others and your family or do you chose less safe options ? Your logic is flawed becuse the if I sold a car that 100% never crashed but priced it at a 10 million then we baned every other car the world is safer but only to those that can afford it to everyone else they die nobody can afford to transport anything including medicine ,food etcetera and once you ban any saw that dosent have said tech he can charge 100k a saw becuse its that or go out of business and then that cost gets forced down those that can't afford simply have to suffer. Want a new house .... cool now they charge a extra 50k to cover the cost of 4 100k saws being tied up for a month.
@@realfamilymanlol but if you say OK government buys them out becuse its going to force every saw to have it he can say OK its 10 trillion in value now we also need to apply that to things like cars mecedies leads the world in self driving by leaps and bounds but the cheapest car with it is 140k so we should force all vehicles that areess safe off the road right ? Aka 200k cars will be a cheap unit
Great video as always.
In 1959, Volvo engineer Nils Bohlin invented the three-point seat belt. Volvo Cars provided the patent to the world for free and saved more than one million lives, simply because one does not profit from death...
The Bosch system was excellent because it didn't damage the blade and was less expensive than "SawHalt."
Great point with the Volvo engineer, you beat me to the punch!
Proof that companies will still innovate and survive and thrive without IP laws. IP laws are stupid as hell. Government protected monopolies.
And the government still mandated it. He should have made the money.
Also, how does this effect the use of dado blades?
Bosch can make its system free because Bosch is a non profit organization , as is stated in Robert Bosch will.
About that SawStop technology:
Kickbacks are, perhaps, the most common cause of saw injuries. Kickbacks are caused when the wood is allowed to pivot on the blade, or when the kerf closes on the back of the blade, pinching it, resulting in the blade raising the wood and throwing it back.
(1) Using push blocks, splitters and feather boards will cut kickbacks to few, or even none.
The splitter keeps the kerf from closing on the blade, pinching it, causing the board to raise and be launched, often, across the blade.
The feather board keeps the wood straight against the fence during cutting, so it doesn't bind on the blade and get kicked back.
The push block, superior to a push stick because it holds down much more of the wood, and can do a better job of holding the wood against the fence, while holding your hand out of harm's way.
(2) Not allowing your hands near the blade is, also, a critical part of safe saw operation.
(3) Add not raising the blade higher than it needs to be raised (just enough to allow the gullets to clear chips and dust) to upping your chances of staying safe.
(4) Finally, not standing behind the work piece, in case it does launch, is critical to your saw operation safety too.
ALL these things are even more important than owning a SawStop.
SawStop technology does not stop kickbacks. It only protects your hands and fingers at the blade.
The SawStop safety feature MUST be disabled to cut wet or treated wood. Failure to do so will activate the brake system, requiring a new cartridge and blade.
Since the system MUST AND CAN can be bypassed, knowledge of the safe operation of a table saw is more critical than owning a SawStop or saw with its technology.
#3 is an important aspect that many don't think about. As my table saw is often used on wet PT wood, yeah, the SawStop would be worthless.
Well said.
My very first thought looking at this was kickback, and precisely the points you made about splitter, riving knives, proper technique (stand out of line of fire, pushblocks etc.
I've got enough going on in my life, and no cycles available for this topic.
Sawstop has $$$ for high six figure lobbyists.
True it might also increase people using saws and diy hobbyists like me.
Respect and appreciation to those pointing out the issues.
Peace and respect.
Kickbacks are, perhaps, the most common cause of NEW LAWS.
Kickbacks...exactly, as in what kickbacks are Sawstop passing on to those in power to give them a huge market edge and drastic increase in sales.
@@Countrylifeprojects, snort. Well put.
Just to add some contextual information. SawStop's original patents expired in 2021. They have extended protection by way of 'Continuation Patents', which are extensions / variations on on the original patent. Based on current status, their protection would expire around 2026, though new continuation filings could change that. New continuation patent filings are only effective if (a) they actually are patentable and (b) they are seen as a necessary component that any competitor would need to implement in order to compete in the space.
I learned to run a table saw in the '70's, as a college student in a scene shop. They taught me about 6 rules: 1. Be alert and aware of kickback. 2.Never rip anything narrower than 3 inches. 3. Don't run the blade too high. 4. Crank the blade down when done. 5. Keep your hand that's nearest the blade on the fence. 6. Never use the fence and the crosscut at the same time.
We used out table saw only to rip long boards, and considered it more dangerous than the other saws, so treated it more carefully.
I'm 72, have all 10 fingers
How much was common sense back then?
I think common sense has been pretty much thrown out the window these days.
I also learned proper use in high school shop class in the 70s. I had a great teacher who spent the time before anyone was allowed to even turn on a machine. Problem is, shop class is rare if not nonexistent these days, what with the concern over liability and the push for every kid to get a college education, along with other changes in interests of the average teenager.
A table saw in the hands of someone who has never had any training is extremely dangerous. I wonder if there are statistics on what the root cause for accidents requiring a trip to the ER? I suspect a large number of accidents are caused by lack of proper training, and following good table saw safety practices. It is very easy to find people doing really dumb things with a table saw on youtube so that is probably reflective of the the general population.
The requirement for riving knives and functional blade guards has had to have had an impact on the number of injuries, but then again, maybe that is not born out in the stats.
These two items and the invention of the Biesemeyer fence that can be accurately and consistently be set parallel to the blade have made table saws a lot safer. Problem is, many people don't use their saws correctly and they get injured, even with these excellent improvements. These are accidents, but they are caused by intentionally disregarding safety features and correct use of the tool.
The rest of the injuries are actual accidents caused by fatigue, inattention or other factor that causes someone who knows better to do something they know better.
AIM technology would be a great thing for all table saws to have, but I definitely have a problem with SawStop and the inventor's intentions to make millions by forcing this regulation. If it is that important to them, they should have zero issue in letting other companies use their technology for free. But, since they sued Bosch over their tech, that clearly isn't their intention.
@@MK-tc1on Actually, in my case, none of it. I WAS INSTRUCTED in all those rules, had never used any power tool before that...
I went to a school that had a pretty nice workshop, with bureaucratic "safety" requirements I put that on commas because I have the feeling they demanded you using gloves, goggles AND face mask while using things like the lathe, drill, and mill, just to discourage students from spending time using that when you had to run to the next class... the justification of safety was moot as anyone who knows rotating tools will tell you long sleves, gloves and sight impediment (by using two protections) is a big no no.
@@larrystuder6378 admits to no common sense..🤣
The first "table saw" I ever used when I was a kid mounted a circular saw underneath a table with something similar to a router lift. That is going to make a come back if entry level is $500
Me too. Mounted a circular saw to a wrought iron fish tank stand.
Back in 1950 my dad built a 2 story house in PA with an ALL METAL Black & Decker 6½" circular saw that he fabricated a frame that held it upside down when he needed to rip stuff.
I was thinking the same thing.
So true. At some point it will be so much more cost effective to put together one yourself, that will be the way people will go.
Even then there may be professional kits that will be offered that is assembled by the end user, by passing all these rules that would unnecessary if only the users would be careful.
I see track saws becoming more popular because of this and I see older stuff becoming more valuable
You sure? Before SawStop a Unisaw was pretty pricey. I have seen them on auctions lately (like within the last couple of months) and they struggle to break $150.
To be honest, if track saws had been a thing way back when, I'd probably have that rather than a table saw now. Esp for a home workshop, many of us don't have the room to maneuver sheet goods on a table saw. If I were a saw manufacturer that makes primarily jobsite saws, I'd probably drop the table saw and look for ways to make the track saw meet those needs.
I agree.
I refuse to buy a table saw. I own a track saw and I can do pretty much everything a table saw does.
It is just a mater of time before they move from the table saw to all powered tools. Cha-Ching more money from companies going to politicians to make this happen. Who can afford to buy a new car without a mortgage for many years? That is from gubment mandated crap on the vehicles
I worked at a kitchen cabinet company for a few yrs and there was one table saw that was fitted with the SawStop. It worked fine with dry lumber but as soon as you put wet pressure treated wood on it, it activated the SawStop destroying the blade. And besides, 99.9% of table saw mishaps occur due to operator error...
i have a cousin who works for Bosch, specifically in the table saw division. He worked on their system. It was built from the ground up and they believe did not violate any patents. however, once the ligation came, it became apparent that it was not in Bosch interest to spend the money to try and fight the lawsuit, as they assumed that the cost of fighting would wash out money made on their tech.
Its so evil they would sue to prevent safety tech.
Yes, that is the reason many times European manufacturers don't bring their good tech to the US, I know some other examples of this. Because in the US there is no punishment for wrongfully suing someone. In Europe, if someone sues for infringement but is proved wrong in court, they will have to bear the defendants legal costs. That's why those lawsuits are not made unless high chances of legal success are envisioned.
Bosch is the largest tool mega company in the world. They should be able to squish Sawstop guy like a bug. I don't understand
I do think the riving knife was a cost effective and great improvement. I purchased the DeWalt shown in your shop. I also have an ancient Craftsman table saw which I am very careful with. How much safer would woodworking be if there was more training like putting shops back into the schools and teaching the reality of how to use potentially dangerous tools.
I wonder what percentage of all those table saw injuries is a result of the riving knife and/or blade guard being removed.
@@tchevrier Zero percent. Injuries are due to operator error.
@@lc3853 not true, but let me rephrase. What percentage of those table saw injuries could have been prevented by a properly installed riving knife and/or blade guard.
I am all for the idea of safety training in school shops, and after school training on an adult education basis - Some SMALL FEE, not something stupid like $200 ......
@@tchevrierblade guards and riving knifes suck. If you use a saw properly you won't get hurt. A guard or knife doesn't make a difference. Sorry, I just don't see it. Been using my table saw for 20 years and the only time I had a close call it was because I was making a high risk cut.
Accidents do happen, but they can be reduced on a table saw by having good understanding on how they operate as well as having a good splitter and using a push block. I use the same saw as Norm Abram did and I follow much of his safety advice. He has pushed more wood through a table saw then I could ever dream of. I think one of the worst things is getting complacent.
EXACTLY
After I installed a Merlin Splitter on my Unisaw, pinched wood didn't go away, BUT it went to pinching the splitter, instead of the back of the blade.
AND, before they became popular, I used push shoes/blocks. That held the wood down MUCH better and kept my fingers and thumbs out of harms way.
MEANWHILE, sawstop technology WILL NOT stop kickbacks (wood launches), which can be as dangerous or more dangerous than losing a piece of you.
Totally agree with you
Are you aware Norm nearly lost his finger on his saw? He wear a finger cast for awhile on his show.
I see complacency as a separate topic. It's like pointing out that driving is more dangerous while reading a book.... Yep, it sure is... but your car should still be required to have headlights.
My issue is with the patent preventing the technology making its way to the masses and the masses are funding the protection of that patent.
Personally, I question whether patents concerning safety should exist at all.
Well said .. I was coming into the comments to say exactly this .. first and foremost is u freestanding alwxactly what it can and can’t do , and complacency is the number one culprit in tablesaw accidents
There's quite a few problems with this proposal:
1. If this is mandated for table saws how long will it be before other tools and equipment get similar mandates?
2. More importantly "safety measures" put on dangerous pieces of equipment could actually embolden people to be more reckless and complacent when they're using said equipment.
3. And of course, why is it the governments job to prevent careless people from being careless? If someone missuses something how is that the public at large's fault?
4. You can't fix stupid.
lets NOT forget #5, people WILL remove various safety devices if they think those devices hamper productivity.... and some will be removed simply because they can be removed... and #6, accidents will STILL happen no matter what safety devices are on a tool or other hazardous device... that's part of Murphy's law, anything that CAN go wrong most likely WILL go wrong....
@@mikewhitaker2880 Yeah there's definitely more issues, but I got lazy and just mentally lumped everything into problem 4. Also I myself am guilty of taking safety guards off of my power tools, though if it's an internal safety component were someone has to actually take the tool apart to remove it I think most people would probably just deal with it. Especially if that component cost them hundreds of dollars extra to be there.
You can't engineer around stupidly. Remove the safety labels. Let natural selection work itself out. Give emergency services the job security they deserve.
Relating to #3, Congress passes laws that create agencies like the CPA and the FTC and their job "IS" to make things safer because that is what the law says. The Government answers to groups with money. (Because they all need it to get reelected) Insurance companies have mountains of money. They do not want to spend money on repairing your flesh. They want to take your money and pay themselves huge bonuses. Look at cars, what is the cheapest car in america? Its well over 20k now. But it has all the safety stuff on it that only Mercedes had on their cars 20 years ago. Mercedes didn't push more safety so that they could get their patents licensed by other manufactures. The Government wants to make things safer, all things, across the board. Eventually our Government is going to go bankrupt, easily within 10 years, so none of the "Safety" laws will matter because there is going to be a big reset. I foresee a huge black market for $300 saws coming across the boarder from Mexico. Just watch Ebay and FB Marketplace they will be everywhere just not at Lowes and Home Depot.
1. Tablesaws are disproportionally unsafe compared to other tools, this is not a problem, the reason that this is being proposed in the first place is because tablesaws are one of most dangerous tools
2. no evidence backed up to this claim, but no, in general safety options are deterrents, especially if the safety option is almost all pros. Outside of cost, the sawstop solution is almost entirely all pros
3. The government has in its best interest to help its citizens, the government legislates safety all the time, from the rules on the road, to food, etc. etc. etc. In addition, this costs the government money, we have partially subsidized health, and lost productivity is also less tax revenue.
4. agreed, but even a stupid person grazing their hand over a saw blade can have their fingers saved by this system.
Increasing safety standards is not necessarily a bad thing, we look at modern cars, from bumper design to seat design, to extra features such as rear cameras.
At Volvo, the inventor of the three-point seatbelt gave away the patent for the good of mankind. Sawstop and Bosch could follow suit, but since they are obligated to increase shareholder wealth (as are all corporations) it is unlikely those patents will be released without license.
I was just thinking about this while watching the video.
Smarter every day had a friend design a new saw stop, instantly wanted to patent it for profit not safety
Well the government has 5he power to lift their patents if it benefits the safety of man. So there's that. Otherwise it's nothing more than greed on the government and creator of the patent which seems to be the case
@@pinkyhotmessx69Just curious how much of your disposable income you give away? Or do you keep it to buy things you want?
I work full-time as a carpenter in the entertainment industry and despite productions requiring the "hot dog saw" in our shops we end up disabling it for all the laminates and other conductive materials we use. Even pressure treated has tripped it on us. The blade replacement, cartridge, and sometimes material loss costs start to add up faster.
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. Will OSHA rules could shut us down if we don't comply.
Although a headache for sure, this is a matter of when will it backfire, and not if. Do something long enough and someone will lose a finger and since you disabled the safety feature their to protect you, the medical cost may very well fall totally on the worker and not the company.
For sure! You would have to use only kiln dried lumber on your saw (sorry big box stores!) and would cause production delays if your material got wet in transport or something. The technology is already offered with the Saw Stop if they want it, forcing it on manufacturers would just hit the consumer in the wallet, basically footing the bill for the R & D required to bring this to market.
@@peaceshalom3030 Yes the government needs to keep out of this. This is One hundred percent Dr. Gass and TTS and corrupt bureaucrat/s trying to get even richer. It's all a load of crap because I would be more than willing to bet large sums of money that there are a hell of a lot less table saws in the U.S. today than there was even 20 years ago with all of the offshoring of furniture and cabinet production here in the U.S. Not to mention the large decline in the number of home hobbyists. Now I would say that their maybe more table saw accidents than in years past. Due to the difference of the average hobbyist of the past and todays.
This is just like all the safety switches that make the user do contortions to use the tool, these will be useless at best and a threat at worst❤.
There is zero chance this actually gets implemented before the SawStop patents fully expire. This will be held up in litigation at least until then. I agree this would $200-$300 to the cost of these saws in parts alone, but a SawStop license could easily add another $100-$200 on top of that. Europe hasn't even mandated this and they are bigger safety weenies than anyone.
They are not even allowed to have dado blades in EU. LOLOLOLOL
Dude, here in Germany there are even discussions about a helmet mandate for fu**ing bycicles. And you aren't allowed to sell self-built furniture if you are no officially trained craftsman 😅 Waaaay too much regulation in every aspect of our lives...
Don't worry. As soon as the do-gooders here in the UK learn about this, we will have the same law. And our table saws aleady cost us $500. By the way, dado blades aren't actually banned over here. It's more to do with the saw not stopping quickly enough for our rules with them fitted. So, instead of the manufacturers fitting better braking on the saws, it's cheaper for them just to fit shorter arbours.@@bmacaulay18
@@DanisWerkstatt I think that law not allowing trained craftsman to sell their own furniture is more of a trade job protection issue. They don't want the tradesmen to go out of business.
Make it a frand patent like the ones Apple exploits all of the time.
I was a Union Carpenter in various shops in Chicago for 22 years. Worked on a table saw every day- hundreds and hundreds of cuts every day. Never got a nick. The key to saw safety is respect for the tool. I always compare it to riding a motorcycle- as soon as you don't respect the machine, it's going to bite you!!! I don't want the government to put training wheels on my saws!!
Too many stupid people use these tools with zero safety training. They are dumb as a stick. I've seen them work, and it's easy to see they will lose their fingers; they are just stupid and reckless.
Unfortunately not everyone is diligent and non complacent as you are.
Operate a lathe on a fairly regular basis and I have never found my body wrapped around it's spindle 😂
Realistically, there are only a few ways to implement AIM and if that are allowed to stay restricted then it will almost eliminate competition. The US government can open a patent and allow others to use it if it is in the best interests of the people. If they want AIM technology on all table saws, then they need to remove the patent protections so all manufacturers can add it to their products.
This is generally used for wartime, but has been used for other things in the past - see COVID and War Powers Act. Thing is, unlike COVID this affects a MUCH smaller number of people, so there will be litigation (possibly successful).
Saw Stop has been pushing for this for years. Not saying it is based upon greed v good intentions, just that they have tried to push for this WHILE holding all the cards, and getting the government to enforce it. Seems like greed does play a role here.
I do not understand why the saw can not distinguish between wood and hands and if it takes so many seconds for the blade to stop once electricity is cut and a brake applied then any hand with in those seconds of stopping should stop the saw. Safety devices have been on machines for decades so why are table saw so difficult? Laser beams, led sensors, heat sensors surely they can make saws safe with out the split second saw damaging technology of Sawstop.
15~20 years ago yes. No longer, there are several setups to protect the user from being cut these days. Bosch, Altendorf, and Felder all have their ways of accomplishing this, just not currently in the US for some like Bosch. Once manufacturers are forced to comply I do not think they will be turning down the opportunity to develop this time, or purchase a license agreement as they were offered 20 years ago before SawStop began manufacturing. Those manufacturers that turned SawStop down on the license agreement failed to see the obvious future. They are not doing so well these days. Woodcraft used to offer many different brands of TS's compared to today. Now they mostly sell SawStop.
It sure seems like the federal government just opening the patent would seriously discourage future innovation. Why develop the next big thing if the government will just decide it's so cool that everyone should have it for free?
Seems like Sawstop is pushing this to keep making money.
Sawstop has been lobbying for this type of regulation since the day they got the patent. I'd be interested in seeing the money flow for the regulators involved in setting the regulations.
Yep!
It would be interesting to see that, but the implication of corruption is still pretty cynical.
@@pushingdaisies4238 The government is more corrupt than your wildest and most cynical dreams. The U.S. exterminated 500 nations of native people, protected the institution of human slavery for 100 years, allowed Jim Crow for another 100 after that, interned Japanese-Americans, secretly overthrew a dozen democratic governments around the world, and dropped two nukes on civilian targets. It's not cynical to think that we might pass a law to enrich a lobbyist or two.
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. Will OSHA rules shut us down if we don't comply.
I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for more safety in an inherently dangerous product. As far as insurance goes, I imagine a timeframe where you would get discounts for having AIM technology in your production shop. As the implementation becomes more ubiquitous then there could be a requirement to "tool up." But that's just the insurance company protecting themselves.
The CPSC is really there to listen to professional opinions about products and safety and to discuss if, why, and how to implement changes to those things. I think it is important to have them, and it seems like they are having a legitimate discussion that will hopefully commit to progress while also taking into account the stakeholders and what impact the CPSC will have on the industry.
Sawstop's patent should absolutely not be extended under any circumstances. They've had 20 years of Monopoly on the technology and that is enough.
Yep
Originally patent rights were 14 years, and one renewal. So while their time should be limited, it would only be for 8 more years.
They cannot extend them but they can muddy the water with litigation regarding filing versus award dates and later patents.
That's why it's important to get multiple companies including sawstop agree to RAND licensing terms to preserve a healthy market.
It's not a monopoly you didn't have to buy one if you didn't want to, free to buy a finger eater if you want.
@@johnseavey6622It's a monopoly of the non-finger eaters.
BTW, I've been doing woodwork for years and have never had an accident with the table saw blade. I gave the damn thing the respect it deserves. I've had close calls with kick back of the work being cut, had a 2x4 kick back and make a hole in the wall behind me. THAT could be MORE dangerous than getting cut by the blade.
Survivorship bias in action
Survivorship bias is strong with this one
Indeed, the most dangerous thing about table saws is the kick back risk. It takes a decent bit of knowledge to understand how to hold and move material to avoid kickbacks. For instance knowing what kinds of wood could have built up tension that could be released as you cut it and then it moves into the blade causing kick back. The least dangerous thing unless you're being careless is hitting the blade itself with your finger. Some people might think the band saw is dangerous but that thing makes me the least wary. I've had a band snap and while its a bit jarring it doesnt do anything because it just releases itself from the wheels.
my grandfather lost parts of two or three fingers in his shop in the Bronx, You are lucky, don't forget that, ever.
@@gilbatzri Luck? No, your grandfather lost fingers because of issues you know not about such as less care, some issue causing him to not pay attention or not stopping when he noticed he should.
I can guarantee that not a single person on that committee has ever seen a table saw let alone used one 🤣
They're all old wealthy white guys
100% they are woodworkers in their spare time
Exactly! Even if they are experts which I doubt idc government needs to stay the hell out of it!
A bunch of old white guys... Impossible
Color me shocked that suits are making decisions about things they know nothing about.
These are the same statists that wanted to ban Onewheels. That would be like banning skateboards, or bicycles. And there's a ton more of skateboard and bicycles injuries than Onewheel injuries.
I worked in an ER almost all of my working life and of course I’ve seen quite a few devastating table saw injuries. Some that changed livelihoods and others that redirected passions and hobbies.
Mangled hands/fingers, blindness and significant kickback injuries .
When it comes to table saws you can’t be too careful.
So, SawStop should do the right thing and release the patent rights, right ?
We're the specifically tablesaw injuries
@larryrichardson5167 I think so , if they were in it to keep people safe they would work out an either offer the technology as open source or offer a fair price for it. Stop suing the other companies who come out with a similar technology.
@@pinkyhotmessx69 Yes.
A woman permanently lost vision in an eye when a nail head shot through the air piercing her globe.
Others were mostly fingertip injuries but there were also significant hand injuries with muscle, tendon bone involvement. Some patients do well but others lose a lot of function.
These included musicians (piano and guitar players) and my dad who I thought had just stopped by to say hi but when I saw blood dripping from the bath towel I knew it was something else.
@@pinkyhotmessx69 I’ve got some good nail gun stories too. And there’s the drunk guy who used a kitchen knife on Mr Happy.
Years ago I started with a circular saw plunged through a sheet of 1/4 ply, flipped upside down with the trigger taped on. I honestly think injuries will go up as a result of this. Make no mistake - this is about money not safety.
Great point! People will resort to MORE dangerous solutions when the gov't's first order (typical leftist/control freak thinking) ignores the second order effects.
Geez, at least use 1/2! 1/4 ply I can break in half by leaning on it
I watched those hearings on 2003. They were very interesting. In the end they would not make it a law because only one vendor had a patented solution until patents expired they would not mandate the change.
Most injuries happen in professional workplace and in this case workers are forced to use employer supplied equipment. Everyone agrees worker safety in professional places is a good thing.
They are simply working with SawStop to get a licensing fee which they will get a kickback from. It it goes through for table saws it will eventually include circular saws. The saw cartridges are destroyed when they function so the cost is much much higher than just 200 dollars. Always remember, there is not one single person in government who truly cares about you. It is always about money in their pockets.
All wrong. The government doesn't get paid any licensing fee in any scenario. Sawstop owns its patents and can license them. Or not. So far, not.
The government's interest here is simply the mission of the agency, consumer safety.
Also remember the government is us...
To say that "there is not one single person in government who truly cares about you" is about as cynical a statement (and so utterly demonstrably false) as I've heard. And for what it's worth, that idea about "money in their pockets" is much more likely on the right of the political spectrum than the left.
And here I am, a dumbass thinking that it was a good thing when anti-lock brakes, seatbelts, airbags, and back up cameras were mandated in cars. Little did I know that the government was in bed with Big Seatbelt. It was all just money in their pockets.
So Glad I bought my Harvey Cabinet saw recently. Great saw BTW. 45 years and can still count to 10 on my fingers and thumbs. Safety is not an accident.
I really appreciate your deep dive and opinion on the topic. It was refreshing to see someone actually dive down and share the source material and key parts. In a world where everything is sound-bite hooks -- being thorough on the topic was refreshing. Thanks!
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. Will OSHA rules shut us down if we don't comply.
if it passes your going to get table saw like mounts for circular saws that don't have the current level of safety that is found in the budget tables saws now.
That's a good point.
Times have changed since I first learned woodworking many years ago. I've been in construction for over 30 years and completely understand how safety has evolved, mainly for the better, still have all my fingers & toes.. Just 5 years ago I decided to start doing custom furniture in my backyard so guess I better keep my DeWalt jobsite table saw in tip top shape to avoid needing to purchase one with the new technology.
I would STRIP that new fangled gadget off any new saw I purchase
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. Will OSHA rules shut us down if we don't comply.
@@peaceshalom3030I think if Texas is successful they'll figure out their place real quick. Mandating what people do and don't do is not their job
Personally, I'll be embracing the change when I make my next purchase. With competition, the costs shouldn't get too crazy. A sawstop cartridge retails for 99 dollars, which is like 30 bucks wholesale, for a niche product in an industry. With market wide adoption and competition, the price can only go down.
These saws should actually reduce insurance rates due to added saftey. Though I could see insurance going up for those that don't have these saws a few years after them becoming the standard.
And yes, it is the governments job to tell its subjects what they can and can not do when it comes to the publics saftey (refference the seat belt in cars). An American belongs to the United states of America.
America is a sovereign nation. An American is a subject of America. And as such beholden to its whims.
@@josephcernansky1794 if it comes on it anyways, you might as well use it until you trigger the blade stopper. the modern ones are pretty hard to set off by mistake
A couple things to point out:
-Sawstop's brake requires a grounded power source, so if the rule goes through, it will absolutely destroy the cordless table saw market until we figure out how to inplement this tech to battery operated saws.
-When it comes to lisencing Sawstop AIM to other manufacturers, TTS probably won't have a choice but to lisence them as their cordless systainer saw and their CS 50 are gonna be pulled off the market, which will make a dent in their profits.
RE cordless saw: the saw detects skin contact by detecting a change in capacitance between the metal blade and some other electrode (in saw stop's case, ground). you can imagine the saw blade as one of the two plates in a classic "parallel plate" capacitor. when your (conductive) body touches the blade, the "plate" becomes much larger, causing the overall capacitance between the 2 plates to increase, and the safety circuit can detect this change by constantly charging and discharging the "capacitor" and measuring how long it takes. Since the saw stop plugs into the wall, it's convenient to use ground as the second plate in the capacitor, but that's not the only option. you can measure capacitance between any 2 conductive materials that aren't shorted together, so you could have your "ground" just be a pad on the circuit board, or a wire buried somewhere inside the case. those "build a game controller out of bananas" kits (yes that's a real thing look it up!) use this same principle, there's just a bit of metal on the PCB that it's using as its second electrode.
capacitive touch sensing is the same technique used on touchscreen devices like phones, and those things manage to detect touch just fine whether or not they're plugged into the wall. arguably a smartphone has to solve a much harder problem than a cordless saw does, since it has to cycle through an entire grid of electrodes, and then process all those measurements to figure out exactly where on the screen was touched, whether there are multiple fingers touching the screen, etc., and do all that with electrodes that are buried under a layer of glass, and thin enough for the screen to shine through. the point is just that capacitive touch sensing is a ridiculously advanced, very mature technology, and it's currently used for a really wide range of applications; the specific use case of "touch detection on a cordless saw blade" is definitely new, it would probably have some unique challenges on account of being a new thing, but it's not demanding anything inherently new from the tech. so, technologically wouldn't be too hard, i imagine the patent lawyers would spend more hours on it than the engineers.
- A Grounding line to the operator could solve this (making it idiot-proof is really hard in the construction industry).
@@kadmow Well, that's the real trick, isn't it. You can never make anything idiot proof, because you can never over-estimate the ingenuity of an idiot...
@@alamaralaa And also mother nature abhors a vacuum. So if you get rid of one id10T, another will come along to replace it.
I really hope this agreement somehow allows Bosch to implement the Reaxx technology again, I'm looking forward to purchasing that over anything from SawStop.
I hope so too. That would mean the we would FINALLY get access to this technology here in Europe. The only table saw sold here that has this safety feature is the Festool TKS80, a job site table saw that starts at €2000 (adding all the fence and runout options will run over €3500!). It has a proprietary fence system that is hot garbage according to reviewers, and precludes the use of popular 3rd party or homebrew fences and sleds.
@@kaasmeester5903 I could be wrong but if I recall the patent dispute settlement stated Bosch would not sell their version in America. I thought they could still sell it in Europe. I also recall the two technologies were different. The only similarity was that the blade would stop if touched. Bosch had an interesting mechanism. It didn't destroy the blade and it didn't require a 'cartridge' to reset it. Old info and my memory might not be as clear.
@@jerrysmigiel7998 Bosch’s system was called Reaxx. I’ve never seen one in Europe.
Agreed. The way SawStop tried (and continues to) use the legal system to strong arm other manufacturers shows that their concern for the users’ safety takes a back seat. Look at their lawsuit with Bosch.
As an owner/user of a Bosch Reaxx, I still think it's superior to the sawstop. Precisely because it doesn't damage the blade and you can keep working after rotating or replacing the safety system's explosive cartridge (and maybe putting on a fresh pair of underwear...). It works similarly to how an automotive airbag works except that the explosion drives a piston that pulles the blade downwards in a split second. Each cartridge has 2 "shots" and after 25 times of the system triggering Bosch requires you to have the saw inspected/reset by a licensed technician/repair facility. Some people might balk or object to this, but given the violence forces at work when the system triggers (you're never expecting it and the bang scares the crap out of you!!), I really do understand this requirement. Also: if you, your employees, or anyone you are teaching/supervising are using a table saw responsibly in the first place, you're unlikely to ever reach 25 occurrences so this shouldn't really be a problem).
The detection works (as far as I understand, so don't quote me...) like the capacitative technology on touch screens. So, for cuts in conductive materials like wet/moist lumber or aluminum, you can override/deactivate the REAXX safety system with a separate button that you have to press at the same time as you pull up the saw's paddle-switch.
after watching. and as US citizen I see immediate violation. Sherman anti-trust act. there is only one US company has monopoly on this technology, and had blocked Bosch with Bosch's modification. This commission ruling most likely encourage monopoly, thus violate the Sherman anti-trust act,
and per prior court rulings, Government agencies and commission(s) can not violate standing laws.
Gut feel, commission will get "punished" for violating the law.
Thank you for putting in the time and effort to produce this video, a LOT of time and effort, not only in the research, but in putting the presentation itself together. I thought it was a nice idea to coil the cord on the saw to show clearly that it was unplugged.
They should follow the automotive world where safety patents can only last a few years at most.
Would be little to no reason to spend the money to develop such things if then someone can simply steal it by the time you have broken even in profit.
@@travisedwards9983if safety is required, then the reward is in licensing the safety tech, or creating patent pools where competitors cross-license
Jeez, it’s almost like you guys are pointing out the flaw of leaving the development of necessary technology, universally beneficial, to the whims of profit motive.
if developing a safer product can net you more money, what's wrong with that? auto manufacturers resisted safety regulation for DECADES, and now they market the safety of their cars!
Until you start receiving a safety recall notice every other month, requiring you to send your table saw off to get fixed. I don't think the automotive industry is a good model to follow. The worst part about all of this is the fact that this decision will ultimately be made by people who have never been around a table saw in their life.
If this goes through (which I doublt), I think we'll find that this tech isn't as expensive as we think it is. SawStop is taking advantage of their patent window.
what he said... Just like new car tech, once others start doing it somehow it magically becomes inexpensive.
@@wolfe2118it's not magic it's basic economics
This requirement will barely lower the number of serious injuries for 2 reasons: #1, the saw-stop tech has to be able to be disabled so you don't activate it when cutting wet wood, nails, etc., so a bunch of people will just disable it so they don't risk needing to buy a new blade set. These are also likely the people who won't treat the saw with respect and are more likely to get injured. #2, there are 10s or 100s of thousands of active table saws out there that will continue to cause injuries for years to come. The government needs to stop trying to protect people from themselves. The CPSC is supposed to stop negligent and malicious issues with products, not impose severe tech changes to a tool that is always going to be dangerous.
seatbelts, airbags, many examples of things like this that have worked over time.
Don't worry this has literally no chance of becoming law, They don't even have a basic idea of what they want, how to implement anything, nor what kind of timeframe is required.
The hearing was a joke CPSC should be embarrassed and the head should honestly resign or be fired, if that is the kind of work they are producing with our tax dollars.
That was a clown show.
@@jasonrowe6302 Seatbelts? The things that a bunch of people don't wear and the only reason half of the people who do is because the cops will ticket them otherwise? You gonna send cops into everyone's house to ensure they aren't disabling the sawstop feature?
@@shawnpitman876 great logic to not do it. Seatbelts cost more when they were implemented. Now it's just the price you pay for the vehicle. A very small portion of people chose to not wear them as will a very small portion of users if saws with the safety device. It's likely not going to impact saws already out there just like the new seatbelt law didn't impact cars already on the road.
1) know where the blade is at all times
2) use a push stick
3) only use as much blade as you need to make the cut
4) if it goes into the machine let it go, it’s gone, DO NOT try to “rescue” it
5) All saws have the potential to kick back
6) Make sure your fence is straight and runs parallel to the blade
7) Pay close attention to what you are doing at all times, especially while the machine is on.
1) Yes. 2) Yes. 3) Yes. 4) Yes. 5) Yes. 6) Yes. 7) Yes.
8) No beer.
9) Keep floor kleen.
Budy Guy cut of 3 fingers due to 8 and 9.
Reatached for free, thanks Caniadan healthcare.
Great video! Very thorough and informative!!!
also, noticing how many of the commenters clearly did not watch the entire video and listen to what the actual lawyer had to say/explain.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Just after the video discussed implementing the rule in 30 days to 6 months, I gave it some quick thought based on my retiring from a career as an aerospace mechanical designer and came up with reasonable time frame of 3 years.
Once the rule is mandated, a manufacturer will have initial meetings on the design followed by product detail design. Tooling design for molds and product handling won't start until a certain amount of design maturity is reached. Cutting chips for the tools and any product detail parts won't happen until the designs are formally released. So, 3 years is comfortable. 1 year would be very rushed.
A rule implementation of less than a year will mean that manufacturers discontinue sales until they can redesign their saws.
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. Will OSHA rules could shut us down if we don't comply.
Yep n it will cause a shortage meaning all 9f us with a tablesaw to sell are go8ng to be able to sell them at what we paid for them if not more.
Excellent explanation of this topic. Been woodworking for forty years, all with a delta contractor saw, never injured, so i know what I'm doing. But my plan has been to buy a saw with AIM technology (currently only Sawstop) when im ready to replace the ol' Delta. Higher cost, sure. For me its a simple question -- how much are my fingers worth?
Same here. 40 years, no serious accidents. Very safety conscious. Then it happened. Took off the front of my thumb. Happened faster than I can describe. I thought I was paying attention but I wasn't. Incredibly dangerous tool and I learned a lesson I thought I knew. My fingers are worth every bit of safety I can give them. I can never undo that moment no matter how much I wish I could. I can just never let it happen again.
THE PEOPLE SPEWING OUT THESE OBSERD INJURY FIGURES ARE FEEDING YOU B,,, S,,, DISGUISED AS SAFTY, WILL ALLOW SAW STOP TO MAKE MORE MONEY.
I have worked for an architectural woodworking company for over fifty years. Employees averaged 20 to 25 per year. Table saw injurys over that time less than 5, amputation of hand or fingers = 0. Cutting a finger with anything = more than 100. Slipping on snow in the parking lot = more than 100.
50 years of injurys requiring serious medical attention (stitches) maybe 10.
They are screwing with you, and trying to scare you into getting this BS passed into a law that will make them lots of money.
The value of the 45 year old tablesaw in my garage just went way up! IT JUST WENT UP BY TEN DIGITS!!! 😊😊😊😊😊
Awesome video! Thanks for taking the time to investigate, provide your perspective, and also talk to an expert. Looks like an enormous amount of work went into this and as a table saw user it’s definitely top of mind for me.
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. Will OSHA rules shut us down if we don't comply.
I lost the tip of my thumb while using a table back in'97. It was an old cabinet saw with zero safety features. I got lazy while ripping old barn wood down, I kept the blade high so I didn't have to constantly move it up/down. The board hit a nail that I had missed and my thumb was history! I'd be interested in learning if the numbers of injuries/missing digits were actually all table saws, or are the adding accidents from shop smith's, band saws, scroll saws, etc. I'd guess that they're all included which would make table saws not as dangerous as they indicate. Even if their numbers are correct, I'd guess, 90%+ of accidents were user error and not the saws fault. I'd love to have a Saw Stop or something similar because the old saying, it's not if, but when, but not in my budget right now. Kinda feel like this is just another government overreach and shouldn't happen.
Yep I'm with you on those numbers. Last year my son lost a fingern part of his hand on a chop saw. I lost the tip of my finger in a stick blender lol don't ask. I can guarantee those are blade or tool injuries not just tablesaw. Ive seen this in othere areas of gov. They never check facts or sources of lobbiests that line their pockets. In this case saw stop. We need to challenge this bs anywhere possible and call 5heir bluff.
@pinkyhotmessx69 I've done and seen some sketchy stuff, and have heard, "hold my beer", hundreds of times!!! Of all the accidents/injuries I've seen, almost all could have been avoided!!! Probably only a couple of times in 35 years, where it was a tool issue. I have nothing against safety, but we definitely need to be better at taking responsibility for our actions and not allowing the government to have control!
Thnks for spending all this time to get us up to date Matt. Fct is last year I cut part of my index finger off on my table saw. Compared to many injuries it was minor BUT a HUGE Eys opener. I sold that table saw in less than a week and bought a Sw Stop PCS Caninet saw. That accident changed the was I run my woodworking business. Saw Stop as you not only provides that extra measure of saftey but they had made it so easy to remove and replace the blade guard. Now unless I'm using the Dado set or my sled the gurd is ALWAY on. God bless you matt and thanks again for all you do for us. I appreciate your ministry.
The only issue I can see with that based off of what they’re saying a new system will be required for dado blades as well. Does saw stop have a system for dados?
@elktrip2000 Yes they have dado blade stopping cartridges
@@elktrip2000 Yes. You do have to use a different cartridge for a dado blade though.
The Dado brake cartridge is a separate purchase when you get the saw. It is very easy to install and then replace the standard blade brake cartridge. Takes maybe a minute or so. I've used it many times.
@@richragan4810 Just wait for that to be 'too complex' and so 'dangerous' for you to do. Has to go to the manf only. Just $100 charge plus the blade pack, if you've signed up to the 'special deal'....;)
A textbook case study in cronyism: one company bludgeoning an entire industry into using their product through the blunt instrument of bureaucratic regulation. All under the guise of 'for the good of the customer'.
same way the jab was forced into the public.
@@zarroth vaccines have been mandated for decades, what are you talking about?
Which brings me to an observation. They did this to the Radial Arm Saw in the 80s. The Radial Arm had many less accidents, even without the new safety guard, than The TS. TS accidents are 61000 per year. (Don't know how the accidents were grouped)
Pretty much decimated their sales with bad publicity.
So, now they are going after the TS. When they're done with that, they will go after another tool. Just another way to take our freedoms away under the guise of safety. YOU CAN'T PROTECT EVERYONE! There is always diminishing aware of statistics, dangers and procedures when buying. Then let them be self accountable.
Let the competition to sell improve the product or training.
Why doesn't everyone buy a Saw Stop. Because they can't afford them! So, let's make all the saws cost that much.
@@ATSaale One could argue that's not even a vaccine. It certainly was new technology and was not properly tested. I'm glad I never got the shot, esp as I have a heart issue.
Phiser and now sawstop
I currently have a Skilsaw. Had it for years and it works great. Will probably get a nice, used high end cabinet saw was one comes up in an estate sale.
This is a major blow. Which tool is next to get a safety upgrade? Unlikely it'll stop with just table saws.
I'm sure Sawstop would love to see other table-saw manufacturer's have to increase the cost of their saws. Nothing like getting the Government to give your company (which conveniently owns a patent on probably the best safety feature) a way to force competition out of business.
You can be guaranteed they bought/are buying people off on the CSPC.
That's just paranoia. You need evidence, not conspiracy theories. @@bmacaulay18
The guy that invented the SawStop tech, tried to license it to all the saw manufactures. and they all declined. the guy that invented the tech deserves to be compensate for his invention. he only started SawStop after the other companies declined to license his technologies. so, I really don't feel back for the other companies. they chose profits over safety. sawstop was not a competitor until they all declined to license his tech.
@@shadvan9494 while you are correct about that but what was the cost of licensing it? and look at how many different patents he and sawstop now own basically preventing anyone else from moving into the market and also wanting to extend the patents rights another 20 years.
@@shadvan9494 They all declined because cost and fear of litigation for not putting it on all models. The patents are nearly at the point of being expired. This all of a sudden coming to the CSPC for new rulings along with attempt to extend the patents stinks of bribery and corruption. Free markets need to be free. If someone doesn't want to buy a sawstop they shouldn't have to. I personally like the Laguna Fusion F2 and for the money I would not buy a sawstop. We don't need government deciding what you can and can not buy.
My thought is you're exactly right in saying that contractors and hobbyists will start using other devices rather than spend the extra money.
As a patent holder I am well acquainted with the patent laws and every US Patent has a rider built in stating that the patent may be used by the US Government or as a public safety issue. The government can (after litigation) require a patent to be licensed for what the court determines to be a fair and reasonable fee, but that can take time.
The patents that Sawstop holds started expiring in 2021, and they put out their first product in 2004. I don't think the patents are a major issue.
@stevesether With Sawstop, they are an issue. The inventor was a patent attorney out for a payday, not safety. Multiple manufacturers have said he was asking for a license fee in many cases equal to their entire selling price in the early days. After that didn't work, he started lobbying the government to mandate his patented technology. When that didn't work, he started Sawstop.
For as simple of a mechanism as Sawstop uses (conductivity detected on the blade trips a brake), Sawstop has literally hundreds of patents on every conceivable method of stopping the blade. They've used every legal trick in the book to extend each of those patents for as long as possible. Bosche's saw used completely different technology that didn't infringe any Sawstop patents but they still pulled out of the market because proving that in court would've been more expensive and eliminated any profits.
@@112428 When patents expire, that's it. No more patent rights. Also, patents don't cover "obvious inventions". The patent office is notorious for issuing patents that never should have been issued. Amazons "one click patent" is but one example.
The other thing is, patents are like munitions. You arm yourself against attack with other patents.
My grandfather and grandfather were carpenters, my father is an avid advanced woodworker and I do woodworking - never had an accident. Although I was taught to have a good well made tablesaw. Was taught how to feed the material into the saw. What type of blade to use and when. How and when to use a push stick. I run a unisaw from the early 90’s and my dad’s unisaw is from the 40’s. I’m all for the safety but the sawstop having the patent and the government saying every saw needs it is well creating a monopoly - just another way of using “safety” as a means of control - never though my old table saw would become political pawn……
Thank you for putting together a highly informative and considered perspective on this topic. It is certainly giving me a new mindset about my approach to table saws.
Price increase also seems to ignore the cost of cartridges and blades that need replacement. The spares that need to be stocked to ensure that if you trigger off a staple left behind by the lumberyard, Black paint, mirrored plexiglass, etc...you can still hit your deadlines.
Probable cheaper then losing a finger hand etcetera.
@@ChickenPermissionOGright, but the odds of such an incident happening are very low, while the odds of triggering the cartridge for a dozen other reasons are very high
If this goes through, we will need some combination of SawStop and retractable sawblade technology. While I get the appeal of having safer table saws, the price of it is not just extra 200-300, but also $200-300 every time you have to replace the cartrige and the blade. That's the current price of a saw right there. When you consider contractors, who may be cuting through all type of crappy lumber, containing screws and nails, they could be having to replace those parts few times a day.
One idiot running his finger into the blade and not only is he done for the day, but so is everyone else’s
So, they're basically mandating all saws have Sawstop equivalent technology, which is patently ridiculous in terms of expense. It will all but destroy all existing low-cost saws, will jack the price of used saws insanely, and, much more dangerously -- *lead to people building their own table saws* -- this is really not very difficult to do -- anyone even remotely handy can do it -- but is certain to exclude any number of reasonably priced safety features already standard on existing saws.
Yet another example of our nanny-state government doing things it has zero business doing.
Just remember how they screwed up something as simple as gas cans. with their "help".
Most of those injuries are probably from people who removed the blade guard or riving knife
Unfortunately you can’t fix stupid. Fact is ANYONE can go buy this saw and use it with zero training. I personally am more than willing to spend $200 extra for the safety feature, it’s less than I would pay just to get in the emergency room. With more people producing the feature hopefully price will drop.
An argument could be made that increasing end user awareness (via training) of as one method to mitigate accidents.@@somethingsomethingsomethingdar
And that is you're right as an American, but doubling the cost of a pretty foundational piece of equipment...
@@somethingsomethingsomethingdar
That is likely true, but the blade guards specifically present challenges and safety hazards of their own. They don't allow for good vision of the process, they restrict the thickness of th material you can rip or cross cut, and they restrict the ability to use the saw to its full potential.
@@somethingsomethingsomethingdar been using saws of ALL types for 5 decades....NEVER had an accident or injury!! Safety is simple and being aware. If you don't use "push-sticks" et al...then it's YOUR FAULT!!
And you'd probably stop the blade while electrocuting yourself!! What you going to do then?! Blame Al Gore for forcing you to ONLY use electricity that is DANGEROUS, DEADLY and the DIRTIEST form of energy to produce? Or maybe go back to handsaws only. But you'd be the kinda kid that would STILL cut their arm off!! LOL
PS : NOBODY should use ANY equipment without proper training. That takes all of 5 minutes with a table saw!
Neighbor who's a carpenter has been home for a few weeks I noticed, his truck hasn't moved. Chatted with him today - he cut off the tip of his thumb and has been off like 6 week with more to go. 40 years in the trade and previously he only had lost a little chunk off his other thumb - this time a significant chunk from the other hand. He says that the guards don't allow for many cuts so the first thing they do is throw them away. His boss is now buying saw stop equipment!
It's not inevitable that you will have an injury. It's like car accidents being much more likely near your home, as you're driving on muscle memory in your own territory and aren't paying attention like you would elsewhere.
When you use a table saw every day, you might be just as complacent going through the motions without thinking about it. The vast majority of carpenters and woodworkers who use a table saw regularly don't experience an injury
@@histguy101 True, but it seems that maybe some sort of seatbelt might reduce injuries? I’m not sure sawstop is the answer but it would’ve saved my neighbor from being maimed.
@@histguy101 Nope, it's not inevitable. My neighbor has used his over 20 years with just two accidents and this was the worst. for a few bucks though he wouldn't be maimed and his company is now making sure it won't happen to anyone else. I think SawStop shouldn't have the only solution, we'll see.
@@BLKMGK4 I think it would need to be a different method than the exploding cartridge that Sawstop uses. Sawstop is great for a shop setting for a woodworker or cabinet maker, but a job site saw is used for all sorts of materials that a sawstop cannot cut, such as wet treated lumber, composite decking, aluminum siding, soffit, flashing, even vinyl, etc. If the Sawstop exploding cartridge was installed on all table saws, contractors would be forced to switch to other methods to cut such things.
On the other hand, table saws, circular saws, and miter saws have gotten a lot safer in the last couple years. They now almost all have a soft start and brake now. Sawstop will stop instantly, but a good brake will still stop the blade in about 1 second.
@@histguy101 I agree that the stop using a cartridge is probably not best, I've heard they can false too. His boss bought a couple of those SawStop saws but I don't know yet how well they work as he's still not able to go back to the job :( Hopefully something better can be found but a 1 second stop is probably too slow for many injuries. He said he only felt a quick flash of pain and his thumb was a mess :(
Already way ahead of this I'm using a radial arm saw from 1968 and its extremely safe if you have the right blade and you know what you're doing. U can get them way cheaper than one of those little table saws too (sometimes free)
I had a radial arm saw. It is just as dangerous as a table saw but in a little different way. I believe most people do not understand that a zero hook blade must be used to reduce the possibility of kickback.
Listen carefully to what the CPSC "expert" said at 12:13.
Read what Sawstop's website has on it's home page: "In the United States alone, over 65,000 people are victims of table saw accidents each year. The impact on the victim is substantial and in some ways immeasurable. OSHA estimates that the cost to a business of a single amputation is more than $130,000 on average. But these numbers do not take into account the pain of the accident, the ER visit, the surgeries and years of physical therapy."
Tell me they're not in bed with each other.
"Victims." Nice wording. That's like hitting your thumb with a hammer and blaming the hammer. Everyone is trying to be a victim. How about you just learn how to use a table saw correctly? I'm 75 years old. I've been using table saws since I was 15. I still have all 10 fingers and have never had a table saw accident. I respect the tool and make sure everything I do with it is done safely. It's just not all that difficult.
I think the regulators should be required to go into a shop and actually use the tools they regulate, or at least participate in a lab exercises to show the reality of implementation of these new laws.
Reality is a wonderful teacher. One thing not brought up is that we need to return Woodshop to high schools. It is overlooked that Woodshop not only trains future carpenters and craftsman, but teaches those going into management what it takes to actually turn materials into a product.
Absolutely. I can guarantee they did not verify the validity of those injuries. I can bet my ass they arent solely tablesaw injuries
I think the regulators need to take 2 weeks off and then quit.
There are some professional carpenters that do not use a table saw. I think it is a lot more common in Europe where space is at a premium. They use a workbench and a track saw. Festool sells a table top for this.
I'm almost at that point where I can retire and work at a school wood shop, show them my cuts on my fingers and yell YOU'LL CUT YOUR FINGERS OFF! That should scare them. ;-) But then again, I'll probably have to use a sawstop enabled machine. (I'll still yell though, LOL)
Being a Small Woodshop Business Owner... I'm worried that insurance companies would force us to have these in our shops and/or may not cover employee injuries that are not using the new technology. My first thought was that I need to buy 2 more cabinet saws immediately before they force this, but then thought about insurance and may want to see if I need to replace the ones I already have...
so ur more worried about cost vs ur employees fingers?
It seems to me that if SawStop instigated this push to "protect people from injury" (how public spirited of them), they ought to be public spirited enough to give their technology away RATHER than seeking to compel everyone to adopt it. How much money does the president of SawStop actually need?
Agree. Volvo did this with seat belts.
They tried…no one wanted it.
@@peterfreeman3317they tried to get them to license it. They most certainly did not offer it free.
At the point Volvo developed the seat belt, they were already making money by selling cars. Saw Stop initially only wanted to sell their tech, but since nobody wanted to pay they resorted to building saws with it... And lobbying to enact a safety law.
Do you give your ideas and hard work away?
I'm from the government and I'm here to help..... Well here we go once again...legislating saftey is like legislating intelligence...you can only do so much to protect folks from themselves
agreed. and just wait until the Government sees a "chainsaw"! lol
Ha just posted Reagan’s quote in another comment…
It's the Dunning Krueger effect. The dumbest people think they're the smartest and the government has to protect them from themselves. The very people arguing to let them do what they want are the ones who benefit the most from these rules. Survival of the fittest would have eliminated them a long time ago if the government wasn't protecting them.
If they want to protect me, they can start at the southern border. I'd appreciate that one
Thought same thing
Thanks for all the time and effort you put into this video. I have 2 points to add.
1 - The government is notoriously bad at underestimating the cost of proposed regulations. Expect the additional cost of the first revised saws to be 2x the government's high estimates.
2 - As soon as the new reg takes effect there will be a huge shortage of the new saws available for sale. Just like the huge shortages of electric vehicle roadside chargers and drone remote ID modules because government pushed new technology too fast.
To your first point, you could have changed "underestimating" to "EVERYTHING" and then just ended the sentence.
@@81wildjoker No truer words... Especially, with THIS particular administration in control!
Just buy a Sawstop -they are available at every woodcraft store and lots of other online retailers. The other saw makers put themselves into this situation. This situation was very clear in 2003!
@@jongaynor3461 Never wanted on. Don't now. Won't buy one. I'm not alone. That fill in the blanks for you?
I expect that the larger manufacturers already have designs that have the AIM features. And possibly the molds and tooling to install into a new saw frame for all types of table saws.
I love your channel and follow you closely. I don't share your faith perspective but absolutely love your channel. I am an educator and you knock it out of the park in your easy to follow instructions and engaging content. Kudos to you. You evidently put a great deal of time and thought into your productions and its shows. I've seen your growth and I've relied on your reviews. I even purchased a Milwaukee track saw after watching your review, excellent.
I have to respectfully say that we all need to put guards on our table saws. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 30,000 table saw incidents a year and 4,000 amputations. They say about 10 table saw accidents a day in the US, concerning to say the least. Blade guards are a challenge. Yes they are a pain, no you can't keep them on for all operations, yes they take time to take off and put on, and yes, they save fingers. I totally get that you don't want to add to the cost of table saws. I taught in a middle school and they were required to have a blade guard on their table saw. I do feel that those influencers that operate their saws without a guard are sending the wrong message. Thanks for presenting both sides.
Please keep in mind that most of the regulations that keep us safe, food, cars, travel, air quality, etc., have always come at a cost that businesses has fought tooth and nail. Take the long view and keep in mind that we want to do everything that we can to keep woodworkers, and budding woodworkers, our sons and daughters, to be safe in the shop. Keep those great videos coming. All my best.
The technologies will only be as good as those users who do not disable them. As your lawyer friend stated, he watches many videos of folks with the blade guards and such taken off of them. I would question how many of the injured people in their studies did the same. They'll start requiring air bags on hammers next...;)
I’m on job sires every day. This week we had 30 degree weather followed by 70 degree weather with rain. Condensation was dripping from everything. How is this tech going to hold up in these conditions?
It wont. I've personally burnt though 7 sawstops cutting damp wood, and with the price of replacement cartridges I decided I was better off buying a saw without it.
pervert
It won't. But don't worry. The fine folks at Sawstop will really enjoy the new yacht you're helping to pay for, and the folks on that safety committee who have never used a power tool in their miserable lives will get a warm fuzzy sense of superiority for protecting us from ourselves.
I think the worst injuries occur when you grab the work piece past the blade and get a kickback that forces your hand into the blade at high speed. You can't let go of the workpiece fast enough is the problem. I don't think a lot of people just push their own fingers into the blade from the front side.
Met a middle aged and well established cabinet maker who lost 1/2 the length of two fingers pushing stock through a table saw. He then showed me his other hand that had the same two fingers trimmed the same amount.
@@gregohare2406 Wow. One instance doesn't prove me wrong, but it does cause me to think twice about it.
@@mckenziekeith7434it good to be careful, but this guy was (possibly) an idiot. He did it twice to the same fingers on each hand. He’d probably do it a third time if he had another
If it were left up to companies ... we would all be working 7/12 and living in company towns and perpeturally in debt to them. Not against mandating safety. Companies won't do it.
Great video, Matt. Thank you for doing all this research and bringing the information to us.
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. Will OSHA rules could shut us down if we don't comply.
Any time the government gets involved in damned near anything it usually screws it up royally. Why? Because: 1.). Most bureaucrats have never used the equipment or run a business. Most of these clowns are career bureaucrats, similar to a career politician.
2.). Most of the bureaucrats are corrupt. Possibly taking payments from manufacturer. Take politicians, how do you become a congressperson or senator and wind up being a millionaire?
3.) Some bureaucrats are in someone’s pocket.
4.). Ms. Kari Lake has, candidate for Senator from AZ, exposed the corruption from the AZ state republican committee as she was offered bribes from Mr. DeWit.
Let the gov’t in and it will be screwed up.
Any time the government gets involved in damned near anything it usually screws it up royally. Why? Because: 1.). Most bureaucrats have never used the equipment or run a business. Most of these clowns are career bureaucrats, similar to a career politician.
2.). Most of the bureaucrats are corrupt. Possibly taking payments from manufacturer. Take politicians, how do you become a congressperson or senator and wind up being a millionaire?
3.) Some bureaucrats are in someone’s pocket.
4.). Ms. Kari Lake has, candidate for Senator from AZ, exposed the corruption from the AZ state republican committee as she was offered bribes from Mr. DeWit.
Let the gov’t in and it will be screwed up.
There is a broader issue where patents in general whose infringement is in the significant public interest should be limited in some way to the collection of reasonable fees.
Let the patents expire. Then similar features will be offered at a non monopoly price.
If they can't patent it then why spend the r&d to make it?
@@michaelgleason4791 There are rare exceptions but Generally the answer is don't do it. It takes very deep pockets to defend a patent from others including any who may initially agree to pay royalties.
The idea that ideas are cheap has been around in some from for a very long time.
The Wright brothers spent a significant amount of time and resources on legal battles regarding their patents, which could have been directed towards further innovation and development.
Most patents are owned by corporations. Patents in the modern world can be viewed as trading cards. Corporations have large stacks of them. Now and then lawyers sit down and make some trades. Cross licensing. They guy with one idea, regardless of how many times he patented it, generally can not play the game. He and his investors who hope to sell or collect royalties generally go broke. Outsiders alter the tech to avoid your patent, out lawyer you, or simply wait for yours to expire.
@@michaelgleason4791That is not what they are saying.
Patents that are turned into standards and the Patentee was involved in the standard setting process must be licensed on FRAND terms. That is "fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory" terms. Meaning, they cannot license to some competitors and not others, if they were part of the standard setting process.
My first thought is how many accidents this will cause from the beginner who can’t afford the newer saws using unsafe methods and techniques to save money.
How many techniques are there?
Think of all the portable saws that could be used in the unsafe manner and put on sawhorses or tables or shelving. By design is just so much more secure by any tablesaw even the cheap ones. If you make it too expensive to do it the right way, there’s no limit to the stupidity of mankind to get it done anyway with the wrong tools and equipment. Me, for the difference in price I would just go for a basic panel saw, or a large format CNC . Yes, I realize that table saws are used for a lot more than sheet goods but that and small parts that you shouldn’t have your fingers near the blade anyway that’s where most of the accidents happen.. And then you’re pushing people towards bandsaw with no blade protection for small parts.
For a while OSHA required carpenters to use gloves around table saws. They quit doing that when they learned saws could drag people's hands into them when people wore gloves.
It's unreasonable to expect a product to not be misused by a consumer
Yeah people are usually so reasonable idk what’s going wrong n
You mean like: unwrap pizza before heating? lol.
We implement and mandate certain safety features to mitigate those expect misuses, such as seat belts, airbags, circuit breakers, GFCIs, auto-retracting syringes, child-resistant caps, etc.
@@sonicpsycho13Are you saying people don't disconnect their seat belt sensors or air bag sensors... Child safety caps don't keep children out of anything... It keeps the elderly people out...
@tog4867 so you're saying that since a tiny number of people are willing to disable car safety features, then these things shouldn't be mandated, where the passive inclusion from the consumer side saves lives?
Oh, and studies show that since the mandate of child-resistant caps, child poisonings have decreased by 40%. That's what we call "effective." Keeping elderly people with dementia from harming themselves is an added bonus.
Would you reverse the mandates on GFCIs, circuit breakers, building codes? Some people remove the grounding prong on plugs, are you saying that devices with potential electrocution risk shouldn't be mandated to have a ground just because a few idiots choose to bypass the safety mechanism? Note that the vast majority of don't and will never know this stuff and it's unreasonable to expect them to learn it.
I have been teaching Wood Shop at the HS level for more than 2 decades. We run 2 Sawstop ICS. I teach these student how to safely operate these Table Saws just like I operate my $50 Craftsman at home. There are not blade accidents. Use a fence, guard, sliding miter gauge, push sticks, etc. If there was truly a concern for safety, there would be Wood Shop class mandated, this would help
My husband's shop teacher had missing fingers lol
Mandatory woodworking classes to own a tablesaw
I’m a self employed carpenter. Every accident I’ve seen has happened using old tools with missing pieces dull blades. I had to have a partial amputation on my left thumb because the contractor I was working for was cheap. He didn’t have workmen’s comp on me or anything. He kept using the same saw, and refused to replace it. That’s when I said enough was enough. My point is, replace tools that are unsafe. I won’t even sale it to someone else. I destroy it and pitch them.
One other point to note: Table saws can last 50 years or more so the existing saws could be around for a very long time because you can't develop an aftermarket device that drops the blade, it is a design problem. Yard sale saws will be around for a long time. I still see saws that are 40 or more years old all the time at estate sales.
I agree, safety should MY responsibility not the government's. I had the honor to work with a highly experienced master woodworker that was quite frank about why he had two fingers that were shorter than standard length. His lesson was "never stop thinking, and never do anything without a plan." This was just slightly before SawStop was a thing. He was a guy that could certainly afford the tech that would have saved his fingers, but I couldn't. Instead, I am ALWAYS thinking about safety and planning how I'm going to do every operation before I do it. Anything makes me feel nervous, I adjust or use another method. Truth is yes we can have safer equipment, but two things, you can never replace the need for safety tool number one to be the brain. Second, you will never get around the used market, or the substitution of other less suitable tools. Will we see manufacturers working around it by other innovation, like making a table saw style tool using a reciprocating blade, or something like a "table bandsaw?" Or worse, some of the stuff we've all seen on youtube promoting really janky and unsafe techniques will continue to proliferate.
Right, If your mind is not totally focused on your work, stay out of the shop for that day.
60 year 10 fingertips cabinet maker here...
You are ENTIRELY CORRECT. I clear my mind fully, don't allow people to hang out while I'm working, and piss my wife off eternally everytime she tries starting a conversation whenever I'm working. One only needs to hit in the chest once by a sheet of flying 3/4 ply to understand there's no daydreaming in woodworking.
I appreciate the fact that you presented positives, negatives, and constructive criticism. You could have easily just moaned and groaned throughout the video like some commenters are.
I really liked the idea by the lawyer you consulted that there be an implementing technology package negotiated as part of implementing this. Then they would know at least what the technology fees would be before they go forward. It would also stop SawStop from playing more games - they would have the government watching at least and they could refuse to move forward if the "deal" was clearly inappropriate.
I am not sure that SawStop technology meets the proposed rule, however. They have the data and should know. I triggered my PCS in a kickback situation using a 3/4 dado stack and got a broken bone and several stitches. I think the wound was more than 3.5mm deep. Kickbacks are going to be the tough situation for a rule like this because your body is moving into the blade so fast. I don't think SawStop is being honest in their claim that they have always prevented a serious injury. I think mine was serious and I'm sure there have been others.
So what about all other blade injuries. Are they gonna do this to stick blenders how I cut part of my finger off or chop saws how my son lost half his hand. I think they are lying on those tablesaw injuries I can guarantee this will not lower injuries and people with crafty minds are just gonna find a work around lol
My number one question is of those 65K+ amputations, how many were because of blatant stupidity? Anyone can be reasonably safe, and still get injured, but we all know that there are many people who just don't take proper precautions for any number of reasons. While some injuries can occur even when the user is careful, we don't need laws because some people can't be bothered to be careful. This is a waste of our taxes. I want my money back.
I have no issue with forcing companies to be reasonably safe in their designs. I do have a problem with forcing companies to add nanny features that are designed to keep people from getting Darwin awards.
I'm glad I already have a cabinet saw. Also, used saw market will go way up.
The return of the radial arm saw, and a new market for "pre-ban" table saws!
I've got one thing to say..."safety shield"
Until someone gets cute and sues because they bought a used saw and got hurt. I'd also expect that if this goes then right after will come a new line in workers comp policies saying you have to have said functions or you arent covered and I'm sure OSHA would be happy to make it policy as well. I don't buy for a second that they won't use strategies to implement it retroactively even if not overtly. Think of the damage to the construction and woodworking industries if everyone needs to replace equipment with new technology with limited or rushed development that causes demand to accelerate beyond manufacturing and prices become insane, prices already ripping North on inflation.
If the government wants to buy the patents and such and pay the cost then go ahead and do it. If not, the technology is there and available. Why is it that they tell me they want me to be safer but at my own financial injury, when they put small businesses out of business people won't be eating, that seems unsafe too.
Lawsuit over a used table saw lacking modern safety equipment will go nowhere because if the used table saw is operated safely it is every bit as safe as a saw with this tech built in. just about every injury that happens with a table saw is user error. Also just like you can't sue because you got injured in a car crash in a 60s model car without airbags which of course was never even a thing you can't sue because you bought a used saw that lacks modern safety devices. It is the users responsibility to buy a saw with the added safety if they want it.
I could see OSHA going after big manufacturing to adopt something like this but in a very small personal or family type business OSHA is irrelevant. which is a good thing as requiring something like this could make them close shop.
I'm glad I actually have my 30+ year old Craftsman table saw which I'm in the process of tuning up right now. The thing is a cast iron tank and with what I"m putting into it it will be working another 30+ years long after saws with this tech are in the scrap pile! LOL
As a safety professional 35 years and woodworker very interesting points and thanks for sharing!
As a Professional 60+ years No accidents, woodworker , thanks but no thanks for allowing the "safety" Police to ruin everything.
The simple enjoyment I get from consciously handling and seeing wood being cut is to be replaced by safety mandates .
Our Children can no longer play outside. Our Children no longer Can talk to people in person, etc etc .........
@@9avedon I don’t make the rules nor was I supporting them. The number of injuries is staggering don’t you think. Why don’t you go after the guy with the technology that has blocked everyone else from making safe use of saws easy and price competitive?
Small wood shops are not the problem.Eliminating all potential harm has made young people so Fragile in the real world the suicide rate has skyrocket way up well over100%
@@sailingarista
We saw what the government did to the gas can!!
Best comment! And look what’s happening to those up north! Government needs to stay the hell out of this including Gass
Ha ha..... good point. I can't tell you how many gas cans I have given away until I found No-Spill. They work.
I’ve never gotten a gas can to work, without removing the idiotic safety device.
@@copernicus633 Bite the bullet and buy a "No-Spill" they are awesome.
Washing machines.
Government- "We're here to help."
Me- "Honey?.....Have you seen my wallet?"
Great video Matt! It is good to hear a balanced presentation regarding potential government mandated safety requirements. Like most complex problems, solutions are complicated.
BTW, I can't remember if the video addressed it or not but there is also the added cost to repair the saw when the AIM mechanism is triggered.
Great RUclips channel. I look forward to seeing great content by a good guy!
Repair the saw? If the saw (outside the AIM system) needs repair, the saw's design needs to be revised. In the SawStop system, the braking cartridge and the blade needs to be replaced after each triggered stop. In the Bosch system, only the braking cartridge needs to be replaced, and only after 2 triggered stops since it is reversible.
@@davidseslar5798 That is the definition of repairing the saw. The saw will not work unless those parts are replaced and the saw is repaired. This repair is not free. The blade is not free and the AIM module is not free.
@@bretwood9779 Uh . . . Replacing consumables does not constitute a repair in my book. I don't "repair" a drill if I replace a broken or dull drill bit, or "repair" a reciprocating saw if I replace a bent blade. The drill and recip saw are not broken in the absence of useable consumables. Circular saw blades and AIM cartridges are consumables.
Great video! Thanks. I don't think that SAWSTOP would allow other saws to be at, or below, their price. They currently own the "safe" market. They can charge whatever they want under the guise of safety. They lose that "niche" they currently have. I expect all saws to go to 900 or better.
I think the government should also regulate nose picking. Sometimes if a nose is picked too hard, it bleeds, causing an increase in telehealth visits and clogging up the Interweb's bandwidth. It also leads to paper towel and tissue abuse, increasing the sustainability crisis and adding unnecessarily to landfill overuse.
Underlying all of this I wonder if decision makers in the government believe that the use of dangerous equipment should be left the the "professionals" or the "experts" so as to bar individuals and small business from access. Maybe it means that only much larger corporations are considered accountable and therefore maybe only larger corporations should have access. Ultimately I think that the market should decide! Individuals should have access and government should keep their nose out of it. By the way I agree the HE does matter! I love your sweater/shirt that you were wearing in the video!
Glad I already own a table saw. Yes I would love a SawStop but I would never pay the price.
I have an ICS SawStop. I bought it almost 11 years ago and about 34 years after cutting half of my left thumb off. I would not hesitate to replace this saw, I DO NOT want the chance to be human and make a mistake again. I was cutting dado's and cut half my thumb after turning the saw off. The SawStop would have prevented that. There are many safety rules but they do not cover every possible situation. The price you pay for a SawStop pales to the cost of a trip to the ER, not to mention losing a digit or worse. And finally my thumb, after about 10 years, was no longer sensitive to normal activity. You don't just heal and that is it, you have nerve damage and pain for many years. My SawStop is my 3rd TS. I do manufacture a lot of custom furniture. Food for thought.
@@11211lcb and that should absolutely be your own personal choice.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Love your content. In looking at history of government mandating things like health and car insurance laws, our costs have risen more than 10 fold or more. It always benefits the INSURANCE companies. The cost of medical treatment has nothing to do with hospitals and doctors who get about 40% of that estimate ( bill 1000 and receive 400). This is about health and disability INSURANCE companies not wanting to pay for what YOU pay them for.... Union shops will all have to retool and either go out of business or charge CONSUMERS even more for furniture and other wood working products. What about band saws, chop saws, nail guns, hand held drills and razors. What about the deadly hammer. When your TIRED and FATIGUED or in a RUSH job, you make more mistakes. My brother makes great custom wood cabinets and furniture and has cut himself several times, because he is to comfortable with the tools and thinks he won't get hurt. I agree the costs will go up FAR more with a law mandating this and product licensing. Saw Stop will say they cannot keep up with demand and supplies are running short, so we have to raise the costs a lot more than those figures. Saw stop standard and dado cartridge is currently $100 to 140 plus blade replacement if needed. Replacement saw stop blades will rise in cost at first by 20%, then 20% more, then 20% more. (100=120, 120=144, 144=172.8) if not more and that will be in the first year. Saw stop tables run from $899 to $4000 dollars with tax. Add $1000 to if this passes. Problem is Current safety features on saws get removed , because they get in the way of some cuts needed and if you use a slid table. Why, because they take to much time to remove and replace, and we are lazy to put them back. How much work / time does it to switch between a standard and dado?? Question, does your shop close down until replacement blades arrive????????
I believe this will open a door for insurance companies to raise rates so high that you will HAVE to buy these products, thus more of your freedoms gone in the name of safety. Answer is lower blade, slow down, use safety devices you have like anti kick bask and blades guards, use receiving tables, good dust collection and safety for eyes and lungs etc. Does everyone put roll ages in their cars and wear helmets and fire proof suits when driving kids to school, NOPE. The 60000 hand injures are probably not all table saw, they may include other saws, but there are 6 million car accidents a year, that means almost 6 million injures, so should we have to by fire proof our rubber tanks to drive?? and wear racing gear like race car drivers.??? No new laws needed, no new taxes ever needed.!!!!!!!! God bless you all and keep making cool wood products.
if what you say is true, then how do you explain minimum loss ratio requirements for insurance companies? if the insurance companies are booking as claims, and as you say hospitals/providers aren't getting that money, then where is it going? is it all just outright fraud?
I don't think they are all tablesaws either. We had two major blade injuries in our family last year. Chop saw n blender blade. I think they are padding their numbers. Kinda like they did covid lol
Government is never the answer and always the problem.
If the government wants to require this, but not create a monopoly then just deny all the patent extensions. I think that safety reasons is a good justification for not extending the patents. I was thinking early in the video that this is probably being pushed by the insurance industry. I wonder if CPSC doesn’t make it mandatory will the insurance companies put a clause or something in the policies that if you get injured with a power tool that has safety technology available on the market and your tool doesn’t have it then they don’t have to cover you for that injury.
If entry level saws will get too expensive, many people will buy even unsafer older saws from various marketplaces which often lack simple things like riving knifes or blade guards. Some other may get creative and build their own with upside down mounted track saws.
A safety feature is pretty much welcomed, but it needs to be very affordable for beginner. They can put it better versions in more expensive saws.
I can't make the inventor of Saw Stop's tech out to be the bad guy here, they did try to get it passed almost 20 yrs. ago. This being said, I have a friend who lost the tip of his finger to a "contractor" type saw a few years ago and he'll tell you he'll tell you that he took his concentration off his work. IMO the table saw is just like any other piece of equipment. The second you take away your concertation from it your going to lose. I spent over 43 years in the construction trades, and I had my fair share of "mishaps" but never had one accident with a table or worm drive saw. What is needed is some sort of course on using any and all equipment. I was "lucky" that I went through the apprentice program for 4 years and safety was the biggest part of the program. Pay attention to what you're doing and you'll bring the chance of injury way down.
Do you think we need to Keep government out of this, this will create new laws and taxes with higher insurance costs to shops and individuals seeking liability and disability insurances. In addition to cost of table saw. Will OSHA rules could shut us down if we don't comply.
I saw my first table saw amputation as a medical student. All four fingers and half his thumb. I have never found anyone since that wouldn’t give $1,000 or much,much, more to have those digits back. I also think you need to look at the increased cost of a saw as an amortized investment. How long does a saw last? Who doesn’t have a buddy using his dad’s or even grandfather’s saw. If you have a saw that lasts only 5 years, the monthly increase is peanuts. A quality table saw will outlast you. For me, the economics work. I bought a used Sawstop at the end of 2020 from someone who changed jobs. Another thought about medical costs-the uninsured. Someone has to pay the bill, and we all pay to cover those who can’t. There is a societal benefit to lessening these gruesome injuries, not just litigation costs. If the market loses cheaper, more dangerous saws, those are not likely American manufacturers, so the cost to American workers is less. Sometimes the right thing happens, despite the government being involved. I’d rather invest in saving someone’s fingers that padding a company’s bottom line.
I use push sticks and paddles as much as possible, After I make a cut I power off the saw left handed, my right hand stays frozen on the work piece till the blade completely stops. Have a off feed table in place to catch your work, disconnect power cord when setting rip fence, changing blade.
Lost the tip of my finger on a stick blender. Are they gonna mandate this tech on them too. How about meat slicers , band saws, skil saws, or every thing with a blade. It should never be mandatory nor should safety devices be completely relied on. That's when real mistakes happen
@@williampace6021but you will gladly pad sawstops pockets and every bough gov on that panels pocket. Gotcha
Even if the injuries are 65,0000/month, it's none of the government's business.
Really? What if the injuries were from a medication, a kitchen appliance, or terrorists? Who's business is it then?
@@alamaralaa depends how much big pharma or kitchen appliance corporation, or defense contractors are paying Washington.
I recently bought a Saw Stop as an upgrade and my complacency has not changed one bit. I know what it is supposed to know but how do you know for sure until it happens? Trying my best not to let the saw show how it works.
All I'm going to say is watch the moisture content in the wood you're cutting...