The issue with peoples' perception of the ASD is the often forgotten fact that even though "conveying" emotion is difficult, "EXPERIENCING" emotions is very significant in their lives. Just because it's harder to communicate these experiences doesn't mean they aren't going through profound emotional trials.
TRIGGER WARNING FOR ICIES PLAYERS Once and for definitively, I will now explain why wobbling is for little babies. The game isn't a game if one person cannot play. For all of the effort of one grab, you get a stock. It's insulting to argue for this to be allowed and shows a complete disconnect from what fundamentally drives the sport. Anyone, I mean ANYONE who does not understand why this should be banned is a juvenile in mind and intention. Progression, passion, trial and error and creativity is at the core of what makes this game amazing and worth playing. Wobbling is for bottom-feeding alligator brained babies who have no sense of truth or what hard work means. Any argument or attempt to "see the other side"/pro-wobbling is senseless and disingenuous pandering. It lacks effort, creativity, and forces the game to be nothing but avoiding a grab. It boils the entirety of everything everyone works so hard to build, down to an exercise devoid of meaning. Melee is a language, we as players spending time mastering and cultivating not only our articulation but personal expression through this language should not entertain the notion that sitting there and screaming with your fingers in your ears is the same thing. If you wobble, you are a weak-minded person and you cannot prove me wrong. No one likes you, you didn't win, go home and stay there hugging your anime pillow. No more arguments, no more videos mentioning top 8 and tier lists. It's done. You lose and we don't need or want your perspective because it that of a bug. Parasites will not understand and those of us who work tirelessly at this craft will appreciate and understand why I am right and wobbling is for babies. It is done. Stop talking about this, get good or die. You are not entitled to being a part of the community if you don't understand why we are here. Unplug your local IC.
Never understood why we never tried to put a limit to wobbling. Like 10 hits and then you must release or smth like that. Like the edge grab limit rule basically. It would need some testing maybe to know how much is fair, too boring, still too broken etc. but I feel like it would ba pretty easily applicable and would stop this back and forth controversy, at least to some degree.
The rule right now is 3 Popo pummels with any amount of Nana hits in-between (it was 3 Nana hits but a Blizzard Wobble was discovered), I definitely think a few more are fair
Personally I think banning wobbling was a good choice in the long run even if in the short term many players stopped playing because the character became significantly harder. Non-wobbling ICs are so much fun to watch, and I think it's better for the Ice Climber community if they don't have this technique that ends up getting themselves ridiculed for playing a character they enjoy.
Bruh you say that non wobbling ICs are more fun to watch, but where are the IC’s? There is only Slug and no one else. You can’t have fun watching non wobbling ICs if they don’t exist! Finding a ICs on Slippi is like finding a shiny Pokémon, it barely happens.
Absolutely agree. I think stuff like Wobbling is very degen for Smash specifically, as it tends to incentivize not interacting and time outs I think Brawl Icies played a huge role in killing the Brawl scene, and prob should have been banned, even before Meta Knight
1st of all wobbling isn't a glitch it's an exploit lol But in general it's good it's banned because there is zero interaction between the ices player and the wobblee. And even with that being said, the execution barrier is non existent compared to infinite in FGs like MvC. You can teach a new player to wobble in 15 minutes, whereas infinites in other games you need to deal with 2F and even some 1F links to pull off. That shit takes hours upon hours to master. Wobble bad. Up throw rest: Poggers
I'm suddenly remembering the clip where Justin Wong was wobbling after he said he played the game for 15 minutes and then Mew2king was just shaking his head
The wobbling ban was the first time in Melee's history that a technique was banned on the grounds of "bad players lose to it" and to me that'll always be a bit of a stain on the integrity of the game. In the end though, I'm just tired of talking about it. Whenever an ICs shows up on screen the topic in twitch chat (and often between the commentators) always instantly becomes wobbling. "wobbling sux", "free wobbling" "wobbling sadge" etc.... In the past I'd try to engage with people on the topic, but now, I just want to play my game in peace. Wobbling or no wobbling, I just wanna play without questions of my skill being overrated due to one move, or underrated due to the lack of one move. Super well done video tho. The topic is obviously an interesting one that deserves to be talked about sometimes, and y'all did a stellar and respectful job covering the history of it. 10/10 :)
TRIGGER WARNING FOR ICIES PLAYERS Once and for definitively, I will now explain why wobbling is for little babies. The game isn't a game if one person cannot play. For all of the effort of one grab, you get a stock. It's insulting to argue for this to be allowed and shows a complete disconnect from what fundamentally drives the sport. Anyone, I mean ANYONE who does not understand why this should be banned is a juvenile in mind and intention. Progression, passion, trial and error and creativity is at the core of what makes this game amazing and worth playing. Wobbling is for bottom-feeding alligator brained babies who have no sense of truth or what hard work means. Any argument or attempt to "see the other side"/pro-wobbling is senseless and disingenuous pandering. It lacks effort, creativity, and forces the game to be nothing but avoiding a grab. It boils the entirety of everything everyone works so hard to build, down to an exercise devoid of meaning. Melee is a language, we as players spending time mastering and cultivating not only our articulation but personal expression through this language should not entertain the notion that sitting there and screaming with your fingers in your ears is the same thing. If you wobble, you are a weak-minded person and you cannot prove me wrong. No one likes you, you didn't win, go home and stay there hugging your anime pillow. No more arguments, no more videos mentioning top 8 and tier lists. It's done. You lose and we don't need or want your perspective because it that of a bug. Parasites will not understand and those of us who work tirelessly at this craft will appreciate and understand why I am right and wobbling is for babies. It is done. Stop talking about this, get good or die. You are not entitled to being a part of the community if you don't understand why we are here. Unplug your local IC.
@@bobbybill1773 I was gonna commend your use of that new copypasta from this vod's comments till I realized you were the original person who posted it, lol. I hath been bamboozled.
I was on the team that ran Oceanfront 3, a Florida regional. We had wobbling disabled in melee bracket, and an ICs still got second place. Handoffs take a lot more effort but they're not only more fun to watch but they seem more rewarding as well. MOF used them to devastating effect.
Never liked it when M2k would complain about mechanics used against him, while at the same time trying to get the community to impose Puff limits, which were just hidden attempts to gimp Hungrybox specifically.
The thing the writer forgot to mention that's a big point is that wobbling isn't fun to watch. The viewer base is a huge part of the melee community, and a vast majority aren't popping off at a wobble. Even if the climbers are still mid tier after unban, it doesn't matter, nobody likes getting wobbled, and at the end of the day it's not really about what may be morally right for the climber players but what all competitors and viewers want from their experience playing melee.
Pro-ban I really tried to give Wobbling the benefit of doubt, but literally at all levels of play they make “upsets” all the time beating players randomly that overall perform better in brackets. Sure other characters can cause upsets, but the rate is so much lower and doesn’t hinge on 1 mistake. The go-to argument here is rest, but it takes a lot more to get a rest setup and you often get punished afterwards, not at all a good comparison imo.
I think it’s wrong to ban a game mechanic for just making upsets. Even if it results in more upsets it is more likely just caused by insufficient matchup knowledge/experience. Wobbling was never overpowered and I think it should be looked on more objectively considering it’s the competitive scene we’re talking about
It takes a lot more to get a wobbles setup too, it's not as easy as it looks dude. it's not banned because it's too OP it's banned because it's "bad for the viewers". watch any set where the player gets every single stock wobbled and you'll see the through line being that the guy getting wobbled got tilted and threw the game because they didn't stay composed. It's a mindgame thing and it's a legitimate part of the ICs toolkit that got taken away to placate viewers who don't understand how difficult movement/reads/punishing really is. up throw rest from a stalling puff is a lot more aids than a wobbling IC, and they're a lot harder to deal with
As an ICs player I'm all for banning wobbling, not exactly for competitive reasons, personally not a fan of the frustration it causes ie. M2K's reactions and surely many others who go to a tournament only to end up wobbled. The oddest thing is when I went to tourneys or even on some slippy discords people told me I should/should've wobbled. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
MvC2 infinites are nothing like Wobbling lol. Also, MvC2 has a mechanic called dizzy, literally a mechanic to prevent someone from zero to death-ing your opponent with an infinite.
The wobbling ban discussion is good content Just like Shine 2019 where banning wobbling was a controversy pretty soon it will be good marketing to have wobbling legal for the controversy just like Apex 2013
Perhaps a rule that if you “wobble” you can only do so for a certain amount of time or you’ll get disqualified.. that way it can be a legal technique but one that the player has to time on the clock and release before it is up
That was already the rule, thankfully. Can't wobble past 300%. If you meant that it should be a number of pummels, or a much lower percent, then that may be interesting
@@AutumnReel4444 yeah the number of pummels or the amount of time before the climbers have to let go, so that if they want to do it again the onus is on the player to mix it up and give the opponent the chance to outplay the next chain grab attempt, but at the same time give the ice climbers a tool to help their viability and hopefully subtly diversify the meta
highly pro ban, more depth to melee is the opposite of what we achieve with wobbling. If the ICs players care enough about competing they'll find a different character, or innovate until it's viable, just like axe.
i'll say to my dying day that i do and always did think wobbling was really interesting as a game mechanic and LOVED spectating sets with wobbling ICs - like puff's rest, they were a janky character which is weak in almost every respect relative to the top tiers but had this one ridiculously powerful option that necessitated a really interesting neutral metagame to play for and around - i thought it was amazing that melee had yet another beautiful accident in having a character with a conditional infinite, requiring the specialized technical skill of nana management to be fully utilized, and the specialized skill of nana-hunting to neutralize ARMY's reverse 3-0 on Mang0 after getting 4stocked game 1 at mainstage is one of the craziest sets i've ever seen, for example, but nobody gave him any credit for it because Mang0 would lose to random wobblers in pools sometimes - like the WOO meme (which i love nevertheless), i have never been able to post about my love for wobbling without people thinking it's trolling or a joke not an ICs main by the way, i play samus
But the problem is no new people to the game would want to watch that so they look somewhere else, and same with even a decent amount of people inside the community.
@@sinfinite7516 yeah, i actually in fact was super intrigued by wobbling as a new player and thought it was one of the many weird things that made melee special - as a noob, i especially loved that ICs had the seemingly overpowered infinite and yet still sucked, had near-unwinnable matchups, never stole majors, etc i understand this is a rare perspective but people like me do exist (i am one!)
no its a intentional game design as you would have to remove the comboing system and rebuild it to remove wobbling and still have combo's in the game as all that wobbling is is just hitting the opponent while they are in hitlag and doing that until death and to remove wobbling would be to remove hitlag 1 of the 2 parts of comboing and this is why wobbling is not a glitch or oversight but a byproduct of hitstun
@@trixssbm No, you would just have to remove Nana's ability to interact once Popo grabs the opponent until after they have either been thrown or break out.
wobbling isn't a glitch, it's an exploit/unintended consequence of mechanics just like wavedashing. both ice climbers being able to control the other climber during grabs and the opponent being unable to escape grabs during in-grab hitstun are intended mechanics. there's no glitch there. Edit: they changed the vid name lol.
@@embly2319 it was unintended. the devs knew about it before release sure, but they didn't intend for it to function the way it did. besides, that changes nothing, there's this clip in the special melee video where an icies is having nana jab a yoshi while popo pummels him. it's not wobbling, but it's certainly demonstrating the same principles. ruclips.net/video/R7pLDXA9Org/видео.html
@@nickq8093 Just because they didn't intend for it to play such a big role doesn't mean the mechanic was unintended. There was absolutely unequivocally no intention to have an infinite grab in the game.
@@randumo24 Sakurai saying "we underestimated how impactful it would be" isn't him going "it's overpowered", it's him going "we didn't intend for this to be used for movement at all". look at how they completely removed it in brawl and smash 4, despite all the negatives that came with those implementations of airdodge. Sakurai is very bullish on his vision of smash being the way smash is played, so something being "unintended" means it just straight wasn't something he thought people should be using at all.
pikachu, pichu, and a few other characters being able to permanently trap opponents on the rock and fire cycle of pokemon stadium isnt an infinite? :( 0:43
It is technically, but that infinite is left up to the layout of the stage, which is on a timer, as well as the characters being positioned next to a wall, while wobbling is completely based on an ice climber landing a grab and executing the technique. So while you could wobble somebody forever using ice climbers, the infinite your describing can't do that because the stage will eventually change
Nice vid. I don't think infinites add any depth to a game though, especially one that can be learned in literally less than 15 minutes. For me the biggest thing is that is wobbling is absolutely terrible for the longevity of the game and inviting new players to get interested in this dope game. I can 100% assure you if I got wobbled at the first tournament that I went to, I would not be back lol. Why would anyone want to play a game where you can literally set down your controller when the opponent grabs you?
Fun fact, it was actually a bit of a controversy here in the TN scene when that reddit post dropped. Not because of the wobbling opinion, but because it claimed to be authored by a well known TN TO that did NOT write it.
Fox has an infinite combo on peach Zelda and link on every stage with an extremely difficult dash through shine to turn peach around and waveshine her the other direction.
That combo has counterplay in the form of SDI. You can SDI in to make the dash through shine a mix-up. SDI in far enough and they will go too far and miss the shine on the other side.
@Saxon Eyles even with 2 SDI inputs out and perfect DI Fox can follow up with proper wavedash angle and a dash JC shine. But as chase said the peach can mix-up hard SDI in and SDI out to make the fox whiff the shine, but the fox player can combo off of all possible DI and SDI technically
Kinda surprised this video did not mention the Tetsuya Combos video from like 2003, made before youtube existed. Tetsuya is the Japanese player mentioned at 1:57, who is defintely not unknown. Here is a youtube upload of his video for those who have never seen (the wobble takes place at 1:17): ruclips.net/video/-s2ZdglLW28/видео.html
Sheik and Peach are cited as examples of old characters being given a second life in this era and I think that's exactly why wobbling *should* stay banned. Sheik and Peach are being played differently now due to the melee community spending time to evolve the characters and discover new techniques and efficient strings. Ice climbers don't need their cheese given back to them, they need to evolve as a character. I think the ban gives IC players more incentive to try new things, things that take skill.
that doesn't make sense. the wobbling ban doesn't make room for more powerful things, it forces icies to rebuild their punish game to a worse state than it was before, taking time and development away from the neutral game stuff that was being developed before the wobbling ban. it sets icies development back further.
I remember back when wobbling was legal, i would watch players like chudat practice confirms into wobbling. After the ban, all motivation was gone and the work put in was for nothing. The ban wasn’t a spark that the ICs needed, it was an unnecesary mid tier nerf
@@bobkare639 it also pushes icies away from desyncs in neutral, something most people find interesting, as desyncs are inherently a high risk high reward thing and the wobbling ban cripples their potential reward.
I might not have heard it properly but I’m surprised by the lack of mention of the “handoff” technique which is very similar to wobbling but much harder to execute and is still allowed
I don't play Ice climbers but I understand the whole "removing the infinite ruins the character as a whole" accept the problem compared to the character I used to play was Ice climbers start the infinite with an unblockable grab, and the rest is pretty simple. With my character (Not in smash) Required I do a raw, blockable move to start the "infinite combo" but in reality it would be more comparable to a dust loop and the only thing that would make it an infinite was if I tricked my opponent to a guard break which is easily dodgable. Ice climbers work on one grab and timing, maybe a little setup but that does it self and they win the game.
I like the rulesets than ban wobbling until top 32 or w/e. It really is broken at local levels where everyone is dropping punishes constantly except you because the execution barrier for your infinite is so low. But when everyone is good and 1-3 neutral wins equals a stock regardless of your character, then wobbling is a lot less of a problem.
To this day I think Junebug's video on melee rulesets is by far the best. The ruleset should exist to foster the type of play that the community wants Legalizing wobbling is the debate of wether we want more upsets and mid tier mains placing high in tournaments or getting rid of a type of non-interactive gameplay with even more boring counterplay (also on the topic of character diversity, icies are a big part of why a lot of mid and low tier players were gatekept since a lot of worse characters had no way to separate the climbers safely, not to mention being overpowered for lower level players)
> also on the topic of character diversity, icies are a big part of why a lot of mid and low tier players were gatekept since a lot of worse characters had no way to separate the climbers safely this is straight untrue. ice climbers with wobbling were notably worse against the bottom half of the cast than anyone other top 10 character. like they don't lose to them but peach, falcon and samus pretty handily win harder against the members below mario on the tier list. not to mention the top 5. Hell the reverse is more true, that banning wobbling relatively weakens most low tiers as icies were a better matchup for them than most of the top 10 and thus the drop in icies players makes the field stronger against them.
Narrator says there is only one infinite which isnt true. With stages where there are walls, for example the pit on Stadium, many characters can infinite with multi jabs. Also, Fox can waveshine infinite heavier characters on all stages, its just pretty hard to execute.
I mean do you take the gun away from ice climbers thus removing all skill in an infinite combo, or do you ad skill to the combo instead of having it be a rythme game that annoys everyone and makes it harder for new player inclusion ? As a spectator, I'm fine with the woobling being banned.
now that its banned turns out they aren't just helpless garbage like ics mains were attempting to convince people and in fact they are clearly much cooler and more complex as a character now and have stopped cheesing out wins against much better players by chance. don't know how anyone can argue that the ban was not good.
What do you mean? ICs mains have literally become super rare. They also have horrible matchups against floaties now. How frequently do you run into ICs on Slippi? Very little if at all
Well they aren't helpless garbage but they aren't exactly as good as they used to be ofc. I don't watch too much high level melee but didn't see too many ICs make it far there, the main problem with wobbling seemed to be in locals. Any ICs player could just go to a tourney and cheese it with ease because of wobbling and players there would have no clue how to avoid it a lot of the time because they were less experienced players, and if i had to go through that shit at a tourney I'd probably not go to tourneys anymore.
It’s not a combo it’s a grab there’s a difference it shouldn’t be considered a “infinite combo” it actually takes skill to pull off a infinite combo in a game like MvC2
I always thought wobbling and chain-grabs should have the same status, especially if DI is irrelevant on the chain-grab (looking at Sheik's downthrow on half the cast). Either ban both or allow both, though I'd prefer to allow both.
@Saxon Eyles however both are theoretically the same when performed at top level and will wind up with the same out come. Also one is on a character that is significantly better than the other in other factors. So the chain grab hardness is balanced out with the other neutral tools those top tier characters have that ICs don’t. It is significantly harder to condition/get a grab as ICs than as Sheik for instance because Sheik has so many other better tools.
it's definitely not a glitch lol, it's on the same level of exploit as wavedashing in that it's just an unintended consequence of two intended mechanics.
I think the wobbling ban has simply made ice climbers the least developed viable character. Desyncs and hand offs have a ton of depth, but the right players need to come along and pick up the character. I just think that they are going to different players than the ones attracted to wobbling.
You're pretty wrong on this front. For one, desyncs and other parts of their game were already being developed upon. If you actually knew what to look for then you'd see that top icies players were becoming more technical in their desync usage as time went on. But that was in very subtle ways, the reason being that obvious stuff to people who didn't know much about icies simply isn't that good. Desyncing requires time amd space and puts you in a riskier state as you are more likely to get seperated off a stray hit and are limited in how you can move one of the climbers at any given point. The other reason you're wrong is that the wobbling ban actually pushes us away from using desyncs. For a higher risk option to be good it needs to have higher reward, and with wobbling banned the ceiling on icies possible reward for a desync is lowered. It's like saying falcon isn't developing because you're not seeing setups into falcon punch.
As a viewer, wobbling is just boring/frustrating content, on par with ledge stalling in terms od viewer experiance... I started watching melee for the crazy speed and agression at high levels of play, not this. Personally im all for banning it.
What if wobbling was allowed but with extra restrictions, like no wobbling on consecutive stocks, and no wobbling on the final stock? Might add depth without being as frustrating to watch or play against
it'll never happen, community hate (from people who don't even play) is too much for ICs. people are so toxic to players who simply used the mechanics they had available to them. If you can win with a technique that's legal you should use it, this is the FGC mindset that spectators don't understand. There's no honor in losing, pretty much every pro used to stall, etc. The toxicity against IC players is awful, go to a nintendude video and you'll see people wishing actual violence upon him and having childish fantasies of hurting him. They'll never see a middle ground
I like wobbling, but I still agree it should probably stay banned. Far too easy to pull off considering the payoff for doing it, and the lack of interactivity is very iffy. Like I said I like wobbling, I just think it's fun. But doesn't really belong in a high level competitive environment.
> Far too easy to pull off considering the payoff for doing it it's a reward for maintaining nana until the point you can get a strong enough neutral win to land a grab when the opponent knows your entire gameplan revolves around nana being alive and you getting a grab. wobbling itself is easy, getting to the point you can wobble is not. > the lack of interactivity is very iffy handoffs are just as uninteractive tho?
I don;t think wobbling should be banned, but I do think it should be regulated. Like, you can only do X amount of wobble attempts in a game, with "attempts" set to a certain number of pummels being done to designate it as an attempt. Exceeding such limit forfeits the game said limit was broken on. But of course, someone smarter than me has to set the limits and someone has to monitor the sets. It's a tough problem to solve.
Imagine banning a mid tier character when you only have 8 viable characters in the first place.. The Wobbling ban only exists because there is a disconnect between the game that Melee players think it is (High paced, fast falling, rushdown characters only) and the game it really is with floaties and zoning character classes. Limit their tools and then you only have the rushdown characters left, it seems so petty in actuality.
Yeah, except ICs are the only character this has been done with, and they are the opposite of slow. They just Rushdown in a different way compared to Fox or Falcon. Plus 8 is imo a little low. I personally think there are 13 viable characters, but ik my opinion is quite unpopular
Same reason they added ledge grab limit, because its not fun and there is nothing you can do about it against sheik (and jigglypuff is also much stronger without the limit)
I don't even play competitive Melee or watch it anymore but I came across this video and decided to watch it and really enjoyed it. Also was pleasantly surprised to hear a female narrator/creator! Liked and subscribed too because we need more female narrators/creators to get more attention for topics like this that are historically "male dominant." Also before anyone says some salty BS to me because I want to support more female narrators/creators; I'm gay.
People you say that non wobbling ICs are more fun to watch, but where are the IC’s? There is only Slug and no one else. You can’t have fun watching non wobbling ICs if they don’t exist! Finding a ICs on Slippi is like finding a shiny Pokémon, it barely happens.
I don't think so. Steve is broken to be sure but wobbling is more dangerous than anything Steve can do, and ice climbers didn't get a ban, that strategy did
I've been playing melee since 2003. I have notable wins over darkrain and the king. I personally think wobbling should only be allowed vs peach and puff. I honestly think they can't win those mu without it.
I think you can probably win without it. I think Melee isn't balanced enough to make it a worthwhile agriment anyways. Bowser can barely even play the game and I'm sure most of his matchups are deep in the negative.
@Saxon Eyles imo if you're going to win a tournament as an ic main you need a secondary that covers the peach and puff match ups. Fox and Marth do ok in those mu.
Easiest decision of all time keep it banned. Bad for spectators, bad for every character who isn't Ice Climbers. It's just so lame in a game that is the opposite of lame
The Melee community were toxic and in the wrong to do what they did to Icies and their players. I am against ban but not by much, the ban is reasonable, the community treatment of it all is my gripe.
you prolly think that desyncs are really powerful and underutilised. the problem is that desyncs in neutral are incredibly high risk due to making you more likely to get separated by a stray hit, as well as take time and space to set up. They also don't offer anything in the way of dealing with icies' biggest weakness: platform camping. combined with the fact that the reward for a desync succeeding in winning neutral is reduced with the wobbling ban, it's actually pushing us away from desyncs in neutral.
@@Moss_Dude that's got nothing to do with what i said at all? Icies have great grab combos even without wobbling (but those still definitively worse than wobbling), and they have ~some~ non-grab combos, mostly on spacies, but those non-grab combos are generally just worse than comboing into grab which they coulda done instead. on floaties they have sweet fuck outside of grabs all except upair -> upair or upair -> bair
@@nickq8093 Well the point of my comment was saying Icies probably have a lot of other powerful things to go for that people just didn't because Wobbling was always better. If it's banned, that gives them a chance to start figuring out new setups and stuff. I'm not here to talk about matchups with campy characters.
@@Moss_Dude that doesn't mean wobbling was "holding back" icies tho, as all those strong grab combos are all worse than wobbling. Infact it means the opposite is true: a wobbling ban holds back icies.
Every time I see that clip of M2K I'm overwhelmed by how much emotion shines through on his face.
Who said robots don’t have feelings
The issue with peoples' perception of the ASD is the often forgotten fact that even though "conveying" emotion is difficult, "EXPERIENCING" emotions is very significant in their lives. Just because it's harder to communicate these experiences doesn't mean they aren't going through profound emotional trials.
It’s an Oscar winning performance if an actor does that. He’s a gem of human
@@sampletext7925 this is true
TRIGGER WARNING FOR ICIES PLAYERS Once and for definitively, I will now explain why wobbling is for little babies.
The game isn't a game if one person cannot play. For all of the effort of one grab, you get a stock. It's insulting to argue for this to be allowed and shows a complete disconnect from what fundamentally drives the sport. Anyone, I mean ANYONE who does not understand why this should be banned is a juvenile in mind and intention. Progression, passion, trial and error and creativity is at the core of what makes this game amazing and worth playing. Wobbling is for bottom-feeding alligator brained babies who have no sense of truth or what hard work means. Any argument or attempt to "see the other side"/pro-wobbling is senseless and disingenuous pandering. It lacks effort, creativity, and forces the game to be nothing but avoiding a grab. It boils the entirety of everything everyone works so hard to build, down to an exercise devoid of meaning. Melee is a language, we as players spending time mastering and cultivating not only our articulation but personal expression through this language should not entertain the notion that sitting there and screaming with your fingers in your ears is the same thing. If you wobble, you are a weak-minded person and you cannot prove me wrong. No one likes you, you didn't win, go home and stay there hugging your anime pillow. No more arguments, no more videos mentioning top 8 and tier lists. It's done. You lose and we don't need or want your perspective because it that of a bug. Parasites will not understand and those of us who work tirelessly at this craft will appreciate and understand why I am right and wobbling is for babies. It is done. Stop talking about this, get good or die. You are not entitled to being a part of the community if you don't understand why we are here. Unplug your local IC.
I really love the high output of quality melee content
Never understood why we never tried to put a limit to wobbling.
Like 10 hits and then you must release or smth like that. Like the edge grab limit rule basically.
It would need some testing maybe to know how much is fair, too boring, still too broken etc. but I feel like it would ba pretty easily applicable and would stop this back and forth controversy, at least to some degree.
The rule right now is 3 Popo pummels with any amount of Nana hits in-between (it was 3 Nana hits but a Blizzard Wobble was discovered), I definitely think a few more are fair
Because its a surgical that is annoying and difficult to enforce
@@williamwest9204 surgical?
Because they weren't considered broken when the technique was freely usable. And getting a community to agree on cosmetic rules; good luck.
viewers hate wobbling, people get physically mad over a game they don't even play. that's the only reason it's banned
Personally I think banning wobbling was a good choice in the long run even if in the short term many players stopped playing because the character became significantly harder.
Non-wobbling ICs are so much fun to watch, and I think it's better for the Ice Climber community if they don't have this technique that ends up getting themselves ridiculed for playing a character they enjoy.
Bruh you say that non wobbling ICs are more fun to watch, but where are the IC’s? There is only Slug and no one else. You can’t have fun watching non wobbling ICs if they don’t exist! Finding a ICs on Slippi is like finding a shiny Pokémon, it barely happens.
There is only hungrybox for puff what the fuck is your point?
@@sinfinite7516 Chu and Army are still playing. Those are some good ICs that are still somewhat active
Absolutely agree. I think stuff like Wobbling is very degen for Smash specifically, as it tends to incentivize not interacting and time outs
I think Brawl Icies played a huge role in killing the Brawl scene, and prob should have been banned, even before Meta Knight
@Saxon Eyles Exactly. Everyone has the same character selection screen.
Cinnarin is becoming one of my favorite creators in Melee. Hope to see more from her and the PGStats team!
1st of all wobbling isn't a glitch it's an exploit lol
But in general it's good it's banned because there is zero interaction between the ices player and the wobblee. And even with that being said, the execution barrier is non existent compared to infinite in FGs like MvC. You can teach a new player to wobble in 15 minutes, whereas infinites in other games you need to deal with 2F and even some 1F links to pull off. That shit takes hours upon hours to master.
Wobble bad.
Up throw rest: Poggers
I'm suddenly remembering the clip where Justin Wong was wobbling after he said he played the game for 15 minutes and then Mew2king was just shaking his head
@@wieran35000vr TRUUUUUUEEE
The wobbling ban was the first time in Melee's history that a technique was banned on the grounds of "bad players lose to it" and to me that'll always be a bit of a stain on the integrity of the game. In the end though, I'm just tired of talking about it. Whenever an ICs shows up on screen the topic in twitch chat (and often between the commentators) always instantly becomes wobbling. "wobbling sux", "free wobbling" "wobbling sadge" etc.... In the past I'd try to engage with people on the topic, but now, I just want to play my game in peace. Wobbling or no wobbling, I just wanna play without questions of my skill being overrated due to one move, or underrated due to the lack of one move.
Super well done video tho. The topic is obviously an interesting one that deserves to be talked about sometimes, and y'all did a stellar and respectful job covering the history of it. 10/10 :)
TRIGGER WARNING FOR ICIES PLAYERS Once and for definitively, I will now explain why wobbling is for little babies.
The game isn't a game if one person cannot play. For all of the effort of one grab, you get a stock. It's insulting to argue for this to be allowed and shows a complete disconnect from what fundamentally drives the sport. Anyone, I mean ANYONE who does not understand why this should be banned is a juvenile in mind and intention. Progression, passion, trial and error and creativity is at the core of what makes this game amazing and worth playing. Wobbling is for bottom-feeding alligator brained babies who have no sense of truth or what hard work means. Any argument or attempt to "see the other side"/pro-wobbling is senseless and disingenuous pandering. It lacks effort, creativity, and forces the game to be nothing but avoiding a grab. It boils the entirety of everything everyone works so hard to build, down to an exercise devoid of meaning. Melee is a language, we as players spending time mastering and cultivating not only our articulation but personal expression through this language should not entertain the notion that sitting there and screaming with your fingers in your ears is the same thing. If you wobble, you are a weak-minded person and you cannot prove me wrong. No one likes you, you didn't win, go home and stay there hugging your anime pillow. No more arguments, no more videos mentioning top 8 and tier lists. It's done. You lose and we don't need or want your perspective because it that of a bug. Parasites will not understand and those of us who work tirelessly at this craft will appreciate and understand why I am right and wobbling is for babies. It is done. Stop talking about this, get good or die. You are not entitled to being a part of the community if you don't understand why we are here. Unplug your local IC.
@@bobbybill1773 I was gonna commend your use of that new copypasta from this vod's comments till I realized you were the original person who posted it, lol.
I hath been bamboozled.
"Learnable in an afternoon" more like learnable in a lunch break
I was on the team that ran Oceanfront 3, a Florida regional. We had wobbling disabled in melee bracket, and an ICs still got second place. Handoffs take a lot more effort but they're not only more fun to watch but they seem more rewarding as well. MOF used them to devastating effect.
The despair in m2k’s eyes during genesis 🤣
Never liked it when M2k would complain about mechanics used against him, while at the same time trying to get the community to impose Puff limits, which were just hidden attempts to gimp Hungrybox specifically.
The thing the writer forgot to mention that's a big point is that wobbling isn't fun to watch. The viewer base is a huge part of the melee community, and a vast majority aren't popping off at a wobble. Even if the climbers are still mid tier after unban, it doesn't matter, nobody likes getting wobbled, and at the end of the day it's not really about what may be morally right for the climber players but what all competitors and viewers want from their experience playing melee.
Strong agree and well put. Sucks to play against, sucks perhaps even more to watch
It's sad to see that Ludwig's best video is no longer also his most viewed video.
the only infinite on tournament stages*
its also a range of 180-200 bpm!
the only infinite sometimes within tournament rulesets*
this is an insult to stadium. Though yes it is frozen now
THE ONLY INFINITE POSSIBLE ON NON-POKEMON STADIUM STAGES*
Fox can infinitely waveshine peach on any stage with an extremely difficult dash through shine to turn peach around
Pro-ban
I really tried to give Wobbling the benefit of doubt, but literally at all levels of play they make “upsets” all the time beating players randomly that overall perform better in brackets. Sure other characters can cause upsets, but the rate is so much lower and doesn’t hinge on 1 mistake. The go-to argument here is rest, but it takes a lot more to get a rest setup and you often get punished afterwards, not at all a good comparison imo.
I think it’s wrong to ban a game mechanic for just making upsets. Even if it results in more upsets it is more likely just caused by insufficient matchup knowledge/experience. Wobbling was never overpowered and I think it should be looked on more objectively considering it’s the competitive scene we’re talking about
It takes a lot more to get a wobbles setup too, it's not as easy as it looks dude. it's not banned because it's too OP it's banned because it's "bad for the viewers". watch any set where the player gets every single stock wobbled and you'll see the through line being that the guy getting wobbled got tilted and threw the game because they didn't stay composed. It's a mindgame thing and it's a legitimate part of the ICs toolkit that got taken away to placate viewers who don't understand how difficult movement/reads/punishing really is. up throw rest from a stalling puff is a lot more aids than a wobbling IC, and they're a lot harder to deal with
As an ICs player I'm all for banning wobbling, not exactly for competitive reasons, personally not a fan of the frustration it causes ie. M2K's reactions and surely many others who go to a tournament only to end up wobbled.
The oddest thing is when I went to tourneys or even on some slippy discords people told me I should/should've wobbled. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
MvC2 infinites are nothing like Wobbling lol. Also, MvC2 has a mechanic called dizzy, literally a mechanic to prevent someone from zero to death-ing your opponent with an infinite.
But you cant zero to death by just wobbling aswell
@@bobkare639 yes you can. are you stupid? One grab, then do an easy rhythmic pummel all the way up
"see if there's anything we can do to add depth to the game" - standardize 1.00 hitlag!
And 0.9 knockback
The wobbling ban discussion is good content
Just like Shine 2019 where banning wobbling was a controversy pretty soon it will be good marketing to have wobbling legal for the controversy just like Apex 2013
Perhaps a rule that if you “wobble” you can only do so for a certain amount of time or you’ll get disqualified.. that way it can be a legal technique but one that the player has to time on the clock and release before it is up
That was already the rule, thankfully. Can't wobble past 300%. If you meant that it should be a number of pummels, or a much lower percent, then that may be interesting
@@AutumnReel4444 yeah the number of pummels or the amount of time before the climbers have to let go, so that if they want to do it again the onus is on the player to mix it up and give the opponent the chance to outplay the next chain grab attempt, but at the same time give the ice climbers a tool to help their viability and hopefully subtly diversify the meta
highly pro ban, more depth to melee is the opposite of what we achieve with wobbling. If the ICs players care enough about competing they'll find a different character, or innovate until it's viable, just like axe.
The climbers will rise again. The character really doesn't need wobbling (handoffs can be just as effective)
#slugsweep
True and jigglypuff doesnt need rest
As a huge fan of icys, i like the ban. I think they have so much untapped potential and the infinite is a crutch that stifles their meta
Too bad you never see ics in top 8ths anymore after the ban
@@bobkare639 welp this aged badly
@@dragonbrendan314 What tourney?
@@bobkare639 double down
@@dragonbrendan314 I’m surprised, but it isn’t a supermajor
i'll say to my dying day that i do and always did think wobbling was really interesting as a game mechanic and LOVED spectating sets with wobbling ICs - like puff's rest, they were a janky character which is weak in almost every respect relative to the top tiers but had this one ridiculously powerful option that necessitated a really interesting neutral metagame to play for and around - i thought it was amazing that melee had yet another beautiful accident in having a character with a conditional infinite, requiring the specialized technical skill of nana management to be fully utilized, and the specialized skill of nana-hunting to neutralize
ARMY's reverse 3-0 on Mang0 after getting 4stocked game 1 at mainstage is one of the craziest sets i've ever seen, for example, but nobody gave him any credit for it because Mang0 would lose to random wobblers in pools sometimes - like the WOO meme (which i love nevertheless), i have never been able to post about my love for wobbling without people thinking it's trolling or a joke
not an ICs main by the way, i play samus
mf said wobbling is interesting lmaooo
Hundred percent agree with everything you said.
But the problem is no new people to the game would want to watch that so they look somewhere else, and same with even a decent amount of people inside the community.
@@emeraldgiss you don’t actually know that none of the new people won’t enjoy watching wobbling. Your just saying that w/o evidence.
@@sinfinite7516 yeah, i actually in fact was super intrigued by wobbling as a new player and thought it was one of the many weird things that made melee special - as a noob, i especially loved that ICs had the seemingly overpowered infinite and yet still sucked, had near-unwinnable matchups, never stole majors, etc
i understand this is a rare perspective but people like me do exist (i am one!)
I wouldn't call it a glitch, more of an oversight
exploit, if you will
no its a intentional game design as you would have to remove the comboing system and rebuild it to remove wobbling and still have combo's in the game as all that wobbling is is just hitting the opponent while they are in hitlag and doing that until death and to remove wobbling would be to remove hitlag 1 of the 2 parts of comboing and this is why wobbling is not a glitch or oversight but a byproduct of hitstun
@@trixssbm LOL
@@bigdadeo302 what?
@@trixssbm No, you would just have to remove Nana's ability to interact once Popo grabs the opponent until after they have either been thrown or break out.
wobbling isn't a glitch, it's an exploit/unintended consequence of mechanics just like wavedashing.
both ice climbers being able to control the other climber during grabs and the opponent being unable to escape grabs during in-grab hitstun are intended mechanics. there's no glitch there.
Edit: they changed the vid name lol.
wave dashing isn't unintended
@@embly2319 it was unintended.
the devs knew about it before release sure, but they didn't intend for it to function the way it did.
besides, that changes nothing, there's this clip in the special melee video where an icies is having nana jab a yoshi while popo pummels him. it's not wobbling, but it's certainly demonstrating the same principles.
ruclips.net/video/R7pLDXA9Org/видео.html
@@nickq8093 Just because they didn't intend for it to play such a big role doesn't mean the mechanic was unintended. There was absolutely unequivocally no intention to have an infinite grab in the game.
@@randumo24 Sakurai saying "we underestimated how impactful it would be" isn't him going "it's overpowered", it's him going "we didn't intend for this to be used for movement at all".
look at how they completely removed it in brawl and smash 4, despite all the negatives that came with those implementations of airdodge. Sakurai is very bullish on his vision of smash being the way smash is played, so something being "unintended" means it just straight wasn't something he thought people should be using at all.
Definitely not the only infinite. Not even the only legal infinite because of the walls on stadium
Definitely not the only legal infinite anymore lol.
@@naya3149 the wall infintes with shine have been known for over a decade.
@@christomanci the joke is that wobbling isn't legal anymore.
Yesss more cinnarin PGStats content!
pikachu, pichu, and a few other characters being able to permanently trap opponents on the rock and fire cycle of pokemon stadium isnt an infinite? :(
0:43
It is technically, but that infinite is left up to the layout of the stage, which is on a timer, as well as the characters being positioned next to a wall, while wobbling is completely based on an ice climber landing a grab and executing the technique. So while you could wobble somebody forever using ice climbers, the infinite your describing can't do that because the stage will eventually change
@@ccbg1210 Also, a lot of tournaments just play a modded Pokemon Stadium who doesn't transition.
Love CinnaRin narrations!
M2k chain grabbig and ledge camping players: hehe
M2k getting wobbled: NNOOOOOOO IMMA CRY
Nice vid. I don't think infinites add any depth to a game though, especially one that can be learned in literally less than 15 minutes. For me the biggest thing is that is wobbling is absolutely terrible for the longevity of the game and inviting new players to get interested in this dope game. I can 100% assure you if I got wobbled at the first tournament that I went to, I would not be back lol. Why would anyone want to play a game where you can literally set down your controller when the opponent grabs you?
Infinites are fine if a lot of characters have them or are difficult. It's what separates MvC2 from Wobbling
@@illford hmmm tru
Fun fact, it was actually a bit of a controversy here in the TN scene when that reddit post dropped. Not because of the wobbling opinion, but because it claimed to be authored by a well known TN TO that did NOT write it.
Megaman X background music! Also amazing video.
Fox has an infinite combo on peach Zelda and link on every stage with an extremely difficult dash through shine to turn peach around and waveshine her the other direction.
Also on every character if theres a wall.
Keywords: "extremely difficult." Wobbling is just pressing A over and over
@@christomanci only if they're heavier than marth
That combo has counterplay in the form of SDI. You can SDI in to make the dash through shine a mix-up. SDI in far enough and they will go too far and miss the shine on the other side.
@Saxon Eyles even with 2 SDI inputs out and perfect DI Fox can follow up with proper wavedash angle and a dash JC shine. But as chase said the peach can mix-up hard SDI in and SDI out to make the fox whiff the shine, but the fox player can combo off of all possible DI and SDI technically
Kinda surprised this video did not mention the Tetsuya Combos video from like 2003, made before youtube existed. Tetsuya is the Japanese player mentioned at 1:57, who is defintely not unknown. Here is a youtube upload of his video for those who have never seen (the wobble takes place at 1:17): ruclips.net/video/-s2ZdglLW28/видео.html
Sheik and Peach are cited as examples of old characters being given a second life in this era and I think that's exactly why wobbling *should* stay banned. Sheik and Peach are being played differently now due to the melee community spending time to evolve the characters and discover new techniques and efficient strings. Ice climbers don't need their cheese given back to them, they need to evolve as a character. I think the ban gives IC players more incentive to try new things, things that take skill.
that doesn't make sense.
the wobbling ban doesn't make room for more powerful things, it forces icies to rebuild their punish game to a worse state than it was before, taking time and development away from the neutral game stuff that was being developed before the wobbling ban.
it sets icies development back further.
I remember back when wobbling was legal, i would watch players like chudat practice confirms into wobbling. After the ban, all motivation was gone and the work put in was for nothing. The ban wasn’t a spark that the ICs needed, it was an unnecesary mid tier nerf
@@bobkare639 it also pushes icies away from desyncs in neutral, something most people find interesting, as desyncs are inherently a high risk high reward thing and the wobbling ban cripples their potential reward.
I might not have heard it properly but I’m surprised by the lack of mention of the “handoff” technique which is very similar to wobbling but much harder to execute and is still allowed
You misheard
I don't play Ice climbers but I understand the whole "removing the infinite ruins the character as a whole" accept the problem compared to the character I used to play was Ice climbers start the infinite with an unblockable grab, and the rest is pretty simple. With my character (Not in smash) Required I do a raw, blockable move to start the "infinite combo" but in reality it would be more comparable to a dust loop and the only thing that would make it an infinite was if I tricked my opponent to a guard break which is easily dodgable. Ice climbers work on one grab and timing, maybe a little setup but that does it self and they win the game.
You guys didn't mention how Fly did in EVO 2014 without wobbling.
I'm surprised that no one has ever just turned around and beat the fuck out of a wobbler.
I like the rulesets than ban wobbling until top 32 or w/e. It really is broken at local levels where everyone is dropping punishes constantly except you because the execution barrier for your infinite is so low. But when everyone is good and 1-3 neutral wins equals a stock regardless of your character, then wobbling is a lot less of a problem.
While this would make the IC viable, I still think it would be detrimental as a spectator to have it only on the top 32.
Should be a wobble limit one stock per game.
Melee Hell rofl 🤣 I love how that page is still alive to this day
there is also foxes infinite on the Pokemon stadium transformation
song at 2:18?
I like the MikeHaze wobble in Brawl
2:23 what song pls?
Ice Cap Zone (Act 1) - Sonic the Hedgehog 3
To this day I think Junebug's video on melee rulesets is by far the best.
The ruleset should exist to foster the type of play that the community wants
Legalizing wobbling is the debate of wether we want more upsets and mid tier mains placing high in tournaments or getting rid of a type of non-interactive gameplay with even more boring counterplay (also on the topic of character diversity, icies are a big part of why a lot of mid and low tier players were gatekept since a lot of worse characters had no way to separate the climbers safely, not to mention being overpowered for lower level players)
Peach is the real gatekeeper
> also on the topic of character diversity, icies are a big part of why a lot of mid and low tier players were gatekept since a lot of worse characters had no way to separate the climbers safely
this is straight untrue. ice climbers with wobbling were notably worse against the bottom half of the cast than anyone other top 10 character. like they don't lose to them but peach, falcon and samus pretty handily win harder against the members below mario on the tier list. not to mention the top 5.
Hell the reverse is more true, that banning wobbling relatively weakens most low tiers as icies were a better matchup for them than most of the top 10 and thus the drop in icies players makes the field stronger against them.
The amount she says rumbling dictates that she is definitely an AOT fan
Never wobbled or barely do so. Can go much faster with the cpu in ranking them up to lvl 20. Will be impossible to play.
Narrator says there is only one infinite which isnt true. With stages where there are walls, for example the pit on Stadium, many characters can infinite with multi jabs.
Also, Fox can waveshine infinite heavier characters on all stages, its just pretty hard to execute.
You can smash DI the jabs up and get out, waveshine infinite is legit though on characters that don't fall into tumble
"only tournament-viable infiinite"
there ya go.
5:50 I agree. Neutered = BAD
Ur almost right
I mean do you take the gun away from ice climbers thus removing all skill in an infinite combo, or do you ad skill to the combo instead of having it be a rythme game that annoys everyone and makes it harder for new player inclusion ? As a spectator, I'm fine with the woobling being banned.
Wobbling should be kept legal but the second the ice climbers player starts a wobble, spectators should be able to get up and kick them in the nuts
Wobbling isn't a glitch.
they should only allow wobble after a certain percentage.
Already a thing
now that its banned turns out they aren't just helpless garbage like ics mains were attempting to convince people and in fact they are clearly much cooler and more complex as a character now and have stopped cheesing out wins against much better players by chance. don't know how anyone can argue that the ban was not good.
What do you mean? ICs mains have literally become super rare. They also have horrible matchups against floaties now. How frequently do you run into ICs on Slippi? Very little if at all
I dunno chief
It's been a long time since ICs have done super well. I think they were hit pretty damn hard.
ICs are helpless garbage, with 1 top 30 or 40 level representative, 3 if you REALLY stretch
Well they aren't helpless garbage but they aren't exactly as good as they used to be ofc. I don't watch too much high level melee but didn't see too many ICs make it far there, the main problem with wobbling seemed to be in locals. Any ICs player could just go to a tourney and cheese it with ease because of wobbling and players there would have no clue how to avoid it a lot of the time because they were less experienced players, and if i had to go through that shit at a tourney I'd probably not go to tourneys anymore.
It’s not a combo it’s a grab there’s a difference it shouldn’t be considered a “infinite combo” it actually takes skill to pull off a infinite combo in a game like MvC2
I always thought wobbling and chain-grabs should have the same status, especially if DI is irrelevant on the chain-grab (looking at Sheik's downthrow on half the cast). Either ban both or allow both, though I'd prefer to allow both.
PAL dthrow is best tbh, not that that's ever becoming standard
@Saxon Eyles however both are theoretically the same when performed at top level and will wind up with the same out come. Also one is on a character that is significantly better than the other in other factors. So the chain grab hardness is balanced out with the other neutral tools those top tier characters have that ICs don’t. It is significantly harder to condition/get a grab as ICs than as Sheik for instance because Sheik has so many other better tools.
@@sinfinite7516 but they aren’t actually the same so everything after theoretically doesn’t matter
RIP to ICs players. These were real people with feelings and aspirations 😭
Almost hung myself after the ban 😔
Are we sure it's a glitch? I was under the impression that it's an exploit, but I know that these definitions can be a bit fuzzy
it's definitely not a glitch lol, it's on the same level of exploit as wavedashing in that it's just an unintended consequence of two intended mechanics.
Its an exploit just like most of melee techniques
ban wobbling until top 32
Few would make it till that point without wobbling
Another wavedash vid?
Team Pro-wobbling here
If IC's arent viable without abusing an incredibly boring bug/exploit then perhaps they don't deserve to be viable
I am a wobble enjoyer
I think the wobbling ban has simply made ice climbers the least developed viable character. Desyncs and hand offs have a ton of depth, but the right players need to come along and pick up the character. I just think that they are going to different players than the ones attracted to wobbling.
You're pretty wrong on this front.
For one, desyncs and other parts of their game were already being developed upon. If you actually knew what to look for then you'd see that top icies players were becoming more technical in their desync usage as time went on.
But that was in very subtle ways, the reason being that obvious stuff to people who didn't know much about icies simply isn't that good. Desyncing requires time amd space and puts you in a riskier state as you are more likely to get seperated off a stray hit and are limited in how you can move one of the climbers at any given point.
The other reason you're wrong is that the wobbling ban actually pushes us away from using desyncs. For a higher risk option to be good it needs to have higher reward, and with wobbling banned the ceiling on icies possible reward for a desync is lowered.
It's like saying falcon isn't developing because you're not seeing setups into falcon punch.
melee's REAL most notorious technique is the fabled wombo combo
14 years have passed, and it still isnt banned
Chu and wobbling is trash. Change my mind
Lots of megaman music
Pro ban honestly
has allowing X pummels while wobbling ever been tried? That could make the character better and still be fair
That's the rule now, 3 pummels
We should bring back Wobbling to tournaments but you can only wobble if it's against a B0XX player.
BASED
@Saxon Eyles GIGA BASED
not hax**
As a viewer, wobbling is just boring/frustrating content, on par with ledge stalling in terms od viewer experiance...
I started watching melee for the crazy speed and agression at high levels of play, not this.
Personally im all for banning it.
Wobble baby
What if wobbling was allowed but with extra restrictions, like no wobbling on consecutive stocks, and no wobbling on the final stock? Might add depth without being as frustrating to watch or play against
it'll never happen, community hate (from people who don't even play) is too much for ICs. people are so toxic to players who simply used the mechanics they had available to them. If you can win with a technique that's legal you should use it, this is the FGC mindset that spectators don't understand. There's no honor in losing, pretty much every pro used to stall, etc. The toxicity against IC players is awful, go to a nintendude video and you'll see people wishing actual violence upon him and having childish fantasies of hurting him. They'll never see a middle ground
This is a logistical issue requiring tournament staff to police every single match with Ice Climbers players.
The players who use wobbling just look exactly like the people you would think they look like.
What you implying
@@bobkare639 What do you think I am implying?
@@hermannplatz I was asking you
@@bobkare639 And I asked you. Guess one of us either gotta reply first or simply forget about it.
@@hermannplatz You simply didn’t reply with an answer and expect me to guess what you meant. If I’d know, I wouldn’t be asking in the first place.
Sometimes when I meet a player in slippi who seems new, I start wobbling them. Gotta break the innocence early yk.
I like wobbling, but I still agree it should probably stay banned. Far too easy to pull off considering the payoff for doing it, and the lack of interactivity is very iffy. Like I said I like wobbling, I just think it's fun. But doesn't really belong in a high level competitive environment.
> Far too easy to pull off considering the payoff for doing it
it's a reward for maintaining nana until the point you can get a strong enough neutral win to land a grab when the opponent knows your entire gameplan revolves around nana being alive and you getting a grab. wobbling itself is easy, getting to the point you can wobble is not.
> the lack of interactivity is very iffy
handoffs are just as uninteractive tho?
If you think easy high reward things in melee should banned, go ahead and ban grab as a whole
I don;t think wobbling should be banned, but I do think it should be regulated. Like, you can only do X amount of wobble attempts in a game, with "attempts" set to a certain number of pummels being done to designate it as an attempt. Exceeding such limit forfeits the game said limit was broken on. But of course, someone smarter than me has to set the limits and someone has to monitor the sets. It's a tough problem to solve.
Best non-problematic solution: don’t ban it
LEGALIZE WOBBLING
Unban Wobble
Imagine banning a mid tier character when you only have 8 viable characters in the first place..
The Wobbling ban only exists because there is a disconnect between the game that Melee players think it is (High paced, fast falling, rushdown characters only) and the game it really is with floaties and zoning character classes. Limit their tools and then you only have the rushdown characters left, it seems so petty in actuality.
They banned the move not the character lmao, people still see success if not more then with ics. wobbling was unfun to watch lmao play the game
Yeah, except ICs are the only character this has been done with, and they are the opposite of slow. They just Rushdown in a different way compared to Fox or Falcon. Plus 8 is imo a little low. I personally think there are 13 viable characters, but ik my opinion is quite unpopular
yeah but what's more fun to watch ?
Diversity doesn't mean good.
The game is not separate from it's ruleset. If slow, simple gameplay is banned, melee IS fast paced.
Same reason they added ledge grab limit, because its not fun and there is nothing you can do about it against sheik (and jigglypuff is also much stronger without the limit)
what game is this, Overwatch 2?
I don't even play competitive Melee or watch it anymore but I came across this video and decided to watch it and really enjoyed it. Also was pleasantly surprised to hear a female narrator/creator! Liked and subscribed too because we need more female narrators/creators to get more attention for topics like this that are historically "male dominant."
Also before anyone says some salty BS to me because I want to support more female narrators/creators; I'm gay.
People you say that non wobbling ICs are more fun to watch, but where are the IC’s? There is only Slug and no one else. You can’t have fun watching non wobbling ICs if they don’t exist! Finding a ICs on Slippi is like finding a shiny Pokémon, it barely happens.
And that is why we should ban Steve.
I don't think so. Steve is broken to be sure but wobbling is more dangerous than anything Steve can do, and ice climbers didn't get a ban, that strategy did
I've been playing melee since 2003. I have notable wins over darkrain and the king. I personally think wobbling should only be allowed vs peach and puff. I honestly think they can't win those mu without it.
I think you can probably win without it. I think Melee isn't balanced enough to make it a worthwhile agriment anyways. Bowser can barely even play the game and I'm sure most of his matchups are deep in the negative.
@Saxon Eyles imo if you're going to win a tournament as an ic main you need a secondary that covers the peach and puff match ups. Fox and Marth do ok in those mu.
Fox is also unwinnable, but I dont think you should make peach and puff worse by making it harder in bracket for them compared to other characters
Honestly if you need a boring infinite to make your character viable then it just isn't meant to be.
Nah bro you just lack ambition
Easiest decision of all time keep it banned. Bad for spectators, bad for every character who isn't Ice Climbers. It's just so lame in a game that is the opposite of lame
Not true in a competitive setting. Characters like peach got worse as a result of the ban making it not bad for her
No to infinites in melee, wobbling is just not enjoyable to watch.
Wobbling was never an infinite in competitive melee, then you would break the stalling rule
No effect on me
Wobbling should be banned because it's boring as fuck. Tiers have nothing to do with it. It makes playing and watching the game a bad experience.
The Melee community were toxic and in the wrong to do what they did to Icies and their players. I am against ban but not by much, the ban is reasonable, the community treatment of it all is my gripe.
Its so boring wobbling is banned
How bout 1 wobble a game?
I think Wobbling was holding Icies back, but I don't play melee so my opinion means nothing.
you prolly think that desyncs are really powerful and underutilised.
the problem is that desyncs in neutral are incredibly high risk due to making you more likely to get separated by a stray hit, as well as take time and space to set up. They also don't offer anything in the way of dealing with icies' biggest weakness: platform camping.
combined with the fact that the reward for a desync succeeding in winning neutral is reduced with the wobbling ban, it's actually pushing us away from desyncs in neutral.
@@nickq8093 You're saying Icies have no 0-deaths or huge damage combos in melee?
@@Moss_Dude that's got nothing to do with what i said at all?
Icies have great grab combos even without wobbling (but those still definitively worse than wobbling), and they have ~some~ non-grab combos, mostly on spacies, but those non-grab combos are generally just worse than comboing into grab which they coulda done instead.
on floaties they have sweet fuck outside of grabs all except upair -> upair or upair -> bair
@@nickq8093 Well the point of my comment was saying Icies probably have a lot of other powerful things to go for that people just didn't because Wobbling was always better. If it's banned, that gives them a chance to start figuring out new setups and stuff. I'm not here to talk about matchups with campy characters.
@@Moss_Dude that doesn't mean wobbling was "holding back" icies tho, as all those strong grab combos are all worse than wobbling.
Infact it means the opposite is true: a wobbling ban holds back icies.
YEEEEYASSSSHHHH
Free wobbling
Wabbling is not that good to watch and it feels unskillful.
Yes i love watching wabbling