Lion king is clearly established propaganda supporting the royal family and the superiority of royal blood to rule us all. Or maybe its just a cartoon. Convince me.
From IMDB: "The Lion King is very similar to a story almost unknown to Western culture but one of the most beloved historical stories of the Niger Congo language family (western Africa). It is a story about one of their greatest kings - "Sundiata: An Epic of Old Mali". The main character Sundiata (which, directly translated, means "the lion king") is a young prince banished from his homeland by his family after his father dies. The story tracks his overcoming of emotional and physical ailments to later return to his kingdom and battle the evil sorcerer king who has overtaken it in his absence." However, I have a hard time seeing Americans deliberately promoting obedience to royalty, for obvious historical reasons.
"Everything out of Hollywood is a goal now. More than story." "And that can't last. It's the story that will last." How thankful I am to hear that. How good it feels to hear.
“The artist shouldn’t be able to say exactly what they’re doing. Art bears the same relationship to culture as the dream does to mental stability, your dream doesn’t say what it’s about, it just is...the dream extends you beyond where you already are, that’s what art is” -JP
That's why I don't like modern art or those essays next to a piece. Art shouldn't need an explanation, or even have one. It's meaning should be easy to find but also infinite, because everyone should be able to find their own meaning from it.
There is no moral statement in that game wtf XD. You just can't see it cuz you don't want to accept that LoU2 doesn't divide it's characters into good - winners/bad -losers. The game is an exploration of grief, it tells a story, it doesn't make a statement....
The camera angle is a work of art. It makes the whole room very geometrical. The work of art that is this interview is about right angles and the importance of straight thinking.
when he started to talk about how important the story is and how if the end goal is a moral statement it's just propaganda...well, it instantly reminded me of The Las of Us Part 2....
for the protection of the last of us 2, you can curse over 90 percent of the game and movie franchise i would say, when it comes to planned moral outcomes or in general story telling where the artist (the writer) knows exactly where he wants to go or is it really only the last of us 2?
Well, the penultimate feminist Karen and nadir of the human species, the one and fortunately only Anita Sarkeesian was involved in consulting the wiring for that pretentious video game that wished it was a movie that's just fifteen hours of misery porn, so you're not wrong...
@@rahulkhairwal I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't even referring to Ellie being gay or to Lev being Trans. I think that those particular aspects were done quite nicely actually. I was referring to the theme of the game, "the cycle of violence" and the fact that we need to forgive, otherwise we loose ourselves in revenge. You can write a book, a movie or a game around that premise and make it good, but in TLoU2 it has been there from begging to end and it has been pushed down our throats alongside cheap player manipulation (and people who didn't get what they were trying to do are gullible beyond belief). Nothing felt natural and the whole game was totally dependent on certain characters making stupid decisions (like Ellie going after Abby 2 years after everything happened even though she had the most amazing life you could have in a freaking zombie apocalypse). + there are so many plot holes that the game depends on (like Tommy not wanting to avange Joel in the beginning but after two years he conveniently shames Ellie into going after her because plot). Great stories don't tell you what to think and this whole storie was just about how there are other "Ellies" out there (Abby) and how they both do horrible stuff for what they believe is right, but they might be wrong and hurt the other person. And don't even make me start with that ending. The whole reason why Ellie forgave Abby at the last last moment was because they had to give us that "revenge is bad and Ellie lost everything because of it" ending. It was beyond convenient, that's why so many people are calling bs on that. They only focused on the morality of the story and didn't focus on the story itself. Many people who had an emotional reaction "because it's so deep" didn't even learn anything out of it. Are you seriously telling me that you didn't know that revenge was bad and that you need to forgive yourself and others to not let your life go to shit? Are you telling me that you didn't know that? (Well, not you, but people who do...you get it).
@@toobelxxx you can look at my comment that I wrote for Rhaul if you want to undertand my opinion better. I think it's vital to have a goal and to know where you want the story to go when you begin writing it. I played games and read books and watched movies and you can totally sense when the author doesn't know in which direction he wants to go twords and it's not nice. But the moral aspect of TLoU2 was put above everything else. (and here you can read that comment to understand why I say that). They built the plot around that. They created a new character just to be able to tell that story. They made her do disgusting stuff and then they tried to make you think that she is not that bad by saving her enemies (even though Joel saved her too and she didn't give a shit about him). Then they made Ellie do disgusting stuff just so that the player could see that "they are not that different" and their truths are only personal truths and what is right or wrong is totally subjective, etc. All the narrative decisions that they made was in pursuit of that theme of "the cycle of violence". Even if you want to take the deeper aspect of it which is "forgiveness" they still relied on the characters making dumb decisions for that to happen (and by that I mean Ellie losing everything because she realized that she wants to forgive Abby and herself only after she lost Dina and the kid and the perfect life and after days of hunting Abby and after a 10 minute boss fight and after she lost 2 fingers). It's not realistic. And although a zombie apocalypse is not realistic either you should at least make the people take realistic decisions (at least if you even want it to be believable, which you should if you are writing that kind of game). You can sense what type of narrative they are pushing down your throat from begging to end and it's all very cheap manipulation which wasn't subtle at all and if you were playing the game or watched it and you didn't get what they were doing... you should sharpen your bs detector to say the least.
@UC8ZHt0zggYjR-TOUi2ftK7g although I do get what you are saying I think I can just agree to disagree. It was way too blunt for me. It's way too manipulative for me and although I undertand why you didn't feel that way, I just rolled my eyes 70% of the game because I knew why those decisions were taken and because for me it was very predictable and unnecessary. My life has not been enriched by any means and my time was also wasted because it wasn't a fun game either (not to say that all games have to be fun, but it has to have a purpose and it didn't have any for me). And I do still think that they put the moral teaching over the story. Think about how the first game was made. They thought about the relationship between the characters and how that would play out in a zobie apocalypse. Nothing fancy there, it's just a father-daughter relationship mixed with zombies. But it's how it all played out that made it so good. They built the story around the story itself, there was no moral statement there. I guarantee you that TLoU2 story started out from the idea of a moral statement by giving different perspectives. And then they built everything around that. All that happenes in the game is for that specific ending and for that specific statement. I get why you liked it, but I didn't and I still think it's objectively badly written and all that JP said in the video I think it applies here. You can't take anything else from the story outside of what they intend for you to take. No relationship has substance and if it does (Ellie's and Dina's) it's still to make it so that Ellie has something to loose. Can you see why I say that everything was build around the moral teaching? Portal 2 is one of my favorite games (if not my favorite). It's fun and interesting. It made me laugh and it made me cry. You can take away different things and teachings from it. That your friends are not always your friends. That power corrupts. That you can find things in common even with your worst enemy. That even your worst enemy has a soul and sometimes they don't do bad stuff to hurt you, it's just a robot that has been programmed to do that and it corrupted it until it became a human killing machine, lol. All jokes aside it kept you entertained while it also made you think and contemplate about certain aspects of life (even if they weren't that deep either). They were subtle and they were built around the plot. Those are just some things that you might take from it. At the end of the day that's why you play games and read books and watch movies. If you really want to learn anything significant enough to change your life you read an encyclopedia or even the Bible (if that fancies you) and watch a documentary or a lecture or a podcast. In these mediums the story matters the most and that's why I think JP was 100% right on this. If you got something out of it, that's great, that's awesome. I just didn't. (Plus I think it has a lot of objective narrative problems) (and it was definitely after 2 years, Dina's pregnancy went for 9 months and that baby had at least 1 year lol )
Jordan is dead on point here. As a musician, the songs I've written where I was just letting the art develop itself are songs not only are the ones people like most, but the ones I learn the most about myself from. There's a solo bass piece I wrote over a span of six months that I just let grow on it's own. Once I finally felt that the piece had reached it's full potential value, I have spent a while just playing through it and studying what I feel from it. Like Jordan said, it's the same way you would interpret a dream.
ceeqanguel I would love to record it. Honestly once you leave the bass or guitar I’m pretty clueless in what to do when it comes to recording. I have an interface but haven’t really taken the time to learn how to use it.
bro. as a fellow musician, 100% agree. People used to ask me why I wrote such sad music and I could not really explain to them how I had absolutely no control over it. And if I ever tried to control, it was always a disgusting outcome.
if people didn't die they would still improve, an artists journey is always unfinished, nothing is completely understood. Many current artists probably could summarise their work, because they're after an image.
The last time I was asked "What are you drawing" I sat there for a minute thinking what to say, and I came up with "A normal man purchasing lies at the grocery store".
@JCO2able Bieber will be a footnote in the book of popular music 100 years from now; lumped into the same sentence with Britney Spears and others. Undoubtedly, that sentence, possibly even buried in the footnote, will be about the particular dearth of quality in popular music during that time period and the prevalence of commerciality. "People just like it because it's old[?]" If that were true Jimmie Rogers would be more popular than Jimi Hendrix. Get outta here with that! Get 'em JC!
2:30 is the reason why Hollywood makes a lot of garbage movies more than ever now. They have a goal/agenda they want to reach, and the writing and storytelling comes second
And they were discouraged from being creative or using their imagination. That must be the case, because ALL they can do is remakes. And they can't even make those worth watching.
@@laurenbatson5918 exactly right, i have nothing against remakes, but most modern movies are so bankrupt of creativity, they have to be doing it on purpose.
why? I agree with almost nothing he says here. It can only be Art if you dont know what you are doing? Thats really narrow minded. His dostojevski example is so stupid... like the characters didnt exist in his mind?
Its one perspective on Art. Maybe you could find a sub-category, or a sub-value of artistic values. One value might be skill and craft. Another is what JP sees as a intuitive/existential dialogue with reality. And have you ever been aware during dreaming? If you have then you know that the "dream characters" seem to act all on their own. In writing a story writers can get into that kind of state where it seems to them as if the story is just happening (or that it happened) and theyre just trying to record it. Also dude cmon it cant be my favorite clip cause YOU "agree with almost nothing he says " sounds a little narrow minded.
Rob Vel i dont think it has no merit. But he always phrases it like hes Talking about the one and only truth, not as you rightly say: an Aspekt of the truth.
if he had to qualify everything he said with the counter point it would take all the punchyness of what hes saying. He obviously holds that aspect of art in higher regard than the other (or others). But I dont think he devalues it or ignores it, just hear how he praises some of Ayn Rand. Um but I dont think Im understanding what you mean by "Aspect of the truth" vs "one and only truth"
Rob Vel an Aspect of the truth about Art I meant. But yea i dont really disagree with you about Anything. But: I do think JP phrases what he Is Saying deliberately in a way that he can backtrack when criticized but still Sound impressive and „radical“. which does explain his popularity but makes what he Says much less valuable.
Having gone to an art college, you could always tell the true artists from the amateurs. I remember one time in my traditional animation class with a classmate of mine who is now a Lead Character Designer for Sony. She came over to me while I was at our capture station, which is essentially the booth where you take your finished drawings and take pictures of them frame by frame to assemble them into a video. She came over and started tearing off pieces of paper from a scrap pile, placing them on the capture board, and taking snapshots. She would move them a little and then take it again. She was essentially making a stop-motion story with scraps of paper. It was extremely crude and fast of course, but this is what fascinated me. She was a true artist. She had no sophisticated plan or motive... she was literally playing at creating. It's completely counter-intuitive, but she wasn't afraid of failure, or the unknown, or making something bad. This was her process of discovering what was GOOD. Artists make things, and discover truth through that process itself. I have never thought that way, even as a successful commercial artist 15 years later. She was a true creative, and has skyrocketed in the industry.
As an inspiring artist it feels so true what he says about art itself. Everyone thinks you know what you are doing while you are figuring it out yourself.
It's funny how often writers are told to "write what they know". Wow, I really learnt something from this. Wish a lot more aspiring writers/artists could see this.
I think a lot of people misinterpret or misunderstand this advice, it’s more like “write about what you know.” The nuance is totally different. For example, the setting should be something you “know”, you shouldn’t write a main character with a strong specialist background (maybe a aviator, doctor or engineer) unless you know a little bit about it (although you dont have to be an expert yourself.) But I don’t think this quote talks to the story or ultimate plot at all.
Wow.. the last 2 minutes were more informative on the process of conceiving a compelling story than any creative writing or literature class I had in HS or college.
Wow.....I was just starting to write my first story ever and I've been beating my head trying to come up with a masterpiece and this guy just explained why that was the wrong approach. The story should be spontaneous, it should unfold as you go, don't force the story. The writer needs to be as clueless as the viewer/reader in the process of writing. Planned stories always fall apart it seems.
As someone who has only dabbled in writing for a bit, I've learned that if you aren't learning as your writing, then your story probably isn't interesting. It'll be just a stale as the most generic tripe that comes out of Hollywood.
For tips of writing, I’ve written stories my whole life (hobby), just write whatever you like, what you know, and write down whatever comes to mind. You don’t have to force yourself. Just do it for fun. It may not be easy but at least it helps you to use your imagination.
In case you still see this: there are two approaches to writing, one is the 'gardening' approach which is more spontaneous, and there is the 'architect' approach where the story is planned head of time. Most writers prefer 'gardening' because it feels more lively. The problem with 'gardening' style writing is that inexperienced authors can write themselves into corners, introduce plotholes and have difficulty resolving plot threads. GRR Martin is an example of a gardening style writer, gardening style writing is actually MORE likely to end up falling apart or never being finished, especially in the hands of an inexperienced writer. There isn't anything wrong with architectural writing, especially when you are starting out, many successful authors are architectural and their publishers love them for it. Just write, you will find what approach you like best.
Thanks, your comment made me feel better. I also agree about the point that the gardening style paired with inexperience often produces downright unreadable stories, not to mention the finish rate.
Wreck It Ralph is incredible because the moral of the story is to be happy that you get to help other people overcome their obstacles and enjoy their lives and not just your own, and there is great joy in even making sacrifice in yourself so you can see someone thrive for the first time.
Beauty And The Beast is my favorite fairytale. I relate to it. Jordan has said that he wants to do a video on Beauty And The Beast, but unless I've somehow missed it, I don't think he has. I would be so happy to see an in-depth breakdown from him.
I would LOVE Jordan Peterson to watch and analyze Cowboy Bebop. What he's saying about the art of storytelling in the classic Disney movies rings doubly true for Cowboy Bebop.
My thoughts exactly! Same goes for The Master. That's what PTA does; he creates characters with their own ideoligies and eventually let them go to battle
That's an excellent choice. That really explores the type of storytelling JP was talking about, with fully formed characters placed into a world, seeing where the story goes, and doing battle.
Another GREAT story that fits the Archetypal female hero perfectly is the story of Tam Lin (best known as one of the Child Ballads--there are quite a few folk renditions of it). Please check it out. It's simply wonderful. The heroine of the story is a woman Janice. Her love interest is the mysterious, and possibly a malevolent fairy, Tam Lin who haunts the local forest. Janice is warned to stay away from the forest but goes anyway to pick flowers. Anyway, she encounters Tam Lin, there's some romance, and BOOM, she's pregnent with his child. The problem is, Tam Lin is actually a prisoner of the Queen of the Fairies. To rescue her lover from the fairies, she has to pull him down from his horse and hold on to him tightly--then she can reclaim her lover. During the climax of the story, the Fairy Queen tries to force Janice to let go by turning Tam Lin into all sorts of monstrous creatures (a wolf, a bear, etc.) but Janice has to hold on bravely. Eventually, Tam Lin turns back into a man, and is freed from the Fairies, now able to wed Janice and be a proper father to her child. Anyway, it's a bit more pagan and less Christian than Beauty and the Beast, but there are some obvious shared female archetype tropes.
It sounds like the archetypal story of men breaking out of the chains of their tyrannical mother and growing up into functional responsible men and fathers.
How interesting. I've seen interviews with George RR Martin where he talks about how he never knows where the story is going, even as he writes it, and if he does know, he gets bored or scraps it. He doesn't like to know where his story is leading him. Perhaps that's why Game of Thrones is so incredible. I wonder what JP's take on a Song of Ice and Fire is.
It's interesting how many non-artists know so much about art and artists. Bless You, JP your fascination with Disney cartoons is exactly why our culture is at a perpetual juvenile level of understanding. I'm not saying that maturity is not happening. When people get tired of this kind of schlock and stop paying for it the artistic subject matter will begin to grow and the story structures will do exactly the same thing.
Yeah I'd have to say this strikes me as bullshit. Great novelists of the 20th century - McCarthy, Pynchon, Keroac, Burroughs, Joyce, even if there was spontaneity in their productions, they knew what they were doing. Great work is inherently philosophical and as such inherently political. The disney movies he likes are every bit as ideological as frozen is, he just happens to agree with them.
@@malcolmwatt4866 I agree fullstop. Art needs to be challenging. Its functional purpose is to help you grow your understanding - his comment on picasso is particularly salient here. I'm 19 and find discussing art with people my own age very difficult as a lot of people seem to have lost interest in and exposure to longform challenging content entirely - and even worse - they don't care to seriously consider what it means to be consuming short form disposable content. When novels or films, or hell even TV shows were dominant people were at least forced to consume something of artistic weight.
@@therusteddoor Lets' face it artistic endeavors are supposed to be as you suggest. In this techno-world of mass media that has been completely relegated out the door in favor of a propagandist's ax-grinding and fueling judgments and retributions, or simply raising hell. It is so easy to fall into that trap.
I've been studying fairy tales over the past time and their effects on children and our society. There read somewhere that a good story is timeless and that's why stories like sleeping beauty, snow white, hansel and gretel have survived over time but maybe why the story of frozen won't survive. (I did like frozen a lot though because it was so nice to see a Disney movie without romantical love in the center because that hasn't been a thing ever in my life so far so I've never been able to identify myself with it.) I think JP said something like this here when he mentioned the difference with propaganda. Art is an interesting phenomenon. I have to dig deeper in to that.
I'd like to mention that I often isolate myself on the weekends just to get in touch with myself and watch movies like this that speak to the deep parts of my soul. That is "Hacksaw ridge" and "Gladiator"
Beauty and the Beast is my favorite. Artistically Sleeping Beauty. I also loved Sword in the Stone and Robin Hood. Robin Hood taught me taxes are tyrannical =) oooda lallie
When I say "his dream". I'm talking about him coming up with the story that become a loved story. His choice to selling it was his choice. I just don't think SW can recover from it.
this actually solved a massive creative problem for me because I realized that I am being asked to create the meaning before the art UGH! This is brilliant. I literally started clapping midway through lolllll
I love JP's body language. He is so honest and enthusiastic. I rarely enjoy listening to the typically smug and condescending academic psychologist--but JP delivers the interesting tidbits of psychology without the icd9 code shuffle.
It's so true . Frozen will be forgotten . But when you think of a princess and of Disney the first thing that pops in my mind in Cinderella snow white little mermaid etc. Still to this day I'm 23 I'm opssesed with these fairytales I love them.
I think pure art is emotional expression that the creator likes the outcome when it is done for the liking of others then it is mostly a product for social recognition and money
I love hearing him talk about art, I hear so much of the opposite opinion from the art community, especially those who aren't actually artists- gallery owners, critics and the like. But I really agree with Jordan (I'm a painter btw), it's about the process, and just using it to serve up a pre-determined, rigid message, "this is what I want people to see" is ridiculous. I don't even like to explain my work, unless directly asked
OH MY GOD I am an art student at a prestigious university. Whenever someone would ask me what I was up to in a painting, I’d never know what to tell them. I don’t know. I’m figuring it out, but I don’t know. I was always made to feel bad for that, except by a few professors who felt the same way. Now I know why. J Peterson got the nail on the head.
In a sense. You can invoke the dichotomy between the architect and the gardener here but you know what? Gardeners put up fences. You can pave a path, and erect a greenhouse but still have no idea what exactly you'll be growing in a season from now. So, I'll give the architect credit as an artist so long as what they're keeping confined in their box of tools and manuals of terminology is the seed for further unknowns down the road.
He is right about Frozen. My daughter used to love it and was fascinated by it as a child. She is now in her teens. She can't stand watching it at all. On the contrary, she longs for Beauty and the Beast and feels happy and nostalgic for watching it.
Yes, but it's not an integrated coherent story. Dancing hippos and alligators? Come on. The Nutcracker vignettes are lovely, but story? Characterizations? Nu-uh. Some of the individual pieces (Sorcerer's Apprentice, ferex) are, but Disney's retellings don't dig very deeply into them.
50srefugee Well, it wasn't exactly trying to be a big narrative film. I don't see any point in criticizing it for that. Thats like criticizing a comedy for not being scary .
@Savage Jesus i used to think that too but i'm not so sure anymore. i think the main reason is because the beast actually changes and becomes a better person throughout the course of the film. she didn't fall in love with the "Beast", she fell in love with the "man" she helped him become.
Savage Jesus Stockholm Syndrome occurs when the victim begins to sympathize with their captor's views and begins to justify them as a psychological means of survival. Belle never fell in love with or justified the Beast's violence and savagery. He instead modified his actions and character under her guidance. It was only when he showed progress in taming his bestial nature, showing kindness and a desire to learn that she began to love him.
About Beauty and the Beast. To be a little less literal in the analysis, could we look at the "Beast" as an aspect of Beauty herself : her own sexuality. She was her father's favourite daughter. She left home, thus leaving behind undesirable complications, personified in her stepsisters . Embracing her own sexuality, personified in the Beast, was a natural and desirable course for her life to take. And how about The Beast as the Animus of Beauty? Dr Peterson?
Some of these fairytales are cosmic, rather than social. For instance, Snow Whiite is the snow-whiite moon who is followed by her seven dwarves - the Moon followed by the seven planets that follow the moon in a long line around the ecliptic. The evil witch is the Milky Way, who is being outshone by the glamorous snow whiite moon. So she puts a corset on snow whiite, to make her thinner and thinner, until she dies. Just as the waning moon gets thinner and thinner in the heavens above, until it ‘dies’ (the New Moon). But just as the moon dies (the new moon) she kisses the Sun-prince in an solar eclipse, and comes back to life as the waxing moon. And remember that a solar eclipse can only happen with a ‘dead’ New Moon. Snow White is a tale of the Cosmos. RE.
He'd probably have several hours of lectures for each one, but he'd also criticize how deliberate the theming is, going by what is said here. Spirited Away would be my first choice, but I'd rather see other movies get analyzed
5:52 sounds a bit like GRRM too. Bad things happen to good people in Ice and Fire (GoT) if they don't play their cards right, or for simply chance alone
Jordan Peterson appreciated Logan, my fav X-men movie and wayy better than all the Marvel movies people are so crazy about these days so, it was very satisfying to hear that.
A perfect example of this is Star Wars, regardless of the criticisms of any of the original 6 films done by Lucas, they were all made to emphasize an original story in an original universe and produced in the hopes of telling a genuine story. These new Disney produced films are completely politically motivated regarding the character additions and motivations. The Force Awakens is blatantly just A New Hope but in modern "PC" terms, there's nothing intelligent or original about it.
Seems like an excuse for those born without talent: "True creators aren't SUPPOSED to understand their creation, let alone audiences! I'm a genius because I don't know what I'm doing! No great creator does!" That's very Millennial. Meanwhile, classic Disney writers were master storytellers because they were actually talented, and they completely understood storytelling because they studied hard.
I think the aspect of the Lion King was intriguing, but Peterson made a rare error because the story still stands timelessly today, and will still be remembered years from now. The discussion was given from an archetypal point of view, but at the same time, the actual storytelling and emotional narration remains leaps and bounds ahead of what Disney usually puts out.
I think that Star Wars the original trilogy was a great story (for the most part), while the Force Awakens was highly propagandistic as they describe. That's why Star Wars stood the test of time: it is a deeply mythological story.
Well, maybe in that case it was his then wife, Marcia Lucas, which worked as an editor on the original trilogy and proposed many of the changes made to the final cuts of the films. She didn't work on the prequels, though, and it seems to show.
I liked the prequels. The slow and methodical destruction of a society from within was interesting. Palpatine used the cracks that were already there to bring down the whole structure. It was smooth and elegant and tragically realistic. But since most people don't notice when it's happening in the real world, I guess that that subtelity went over their heads and they prefer the simplicity of shooting down a couple of DeathStars. And while Anakin was annoying, he made sense. On one hand, he knows that he is the strongest Force user, on the other hand, the Council does not consider a word he is saying. A fact that cost him his mother's life. They distrust him and he knows it, so he looks for a paternal figure that seems to give him what he wants and needs. Trust, respect and advice that does not consist of mere platitudes. He cannot flirt, but he was raised by a group of emotionally detached fighting monks. It would be strange, if he could flirt. His fall to the Dark Side was brilliantly initiated throughout the movies. It was not unexpected or illogical. The society and the complexity of war and its different groups of interest were much more interesting in the prequels. The original trilogy was just more of the good vs evil cliche. I liked the original trilogy, but I don't understand why everyone considers the prequels to be so much worse.
The problem with Force Awakens isn't just that it's propaganda. It's because there is no inspiration or imagination behind it. They just tried to make an imitation of what was successful before. Replace the emperor with Snoke, the empire with the first order, the deathstar with starkiller base, R2D2 with BB8 on the run with secret data. Was really creatively bankrupt, a whole galaxy of possibilities and they came up with that.
He’s said it before... rising from the uncounsious represented by the ocean, gain knowledge and be a whole, complete human being... also obtaining your own voice... obviously I am paraphrasing..
My thoughts on Ayn Rand exactly. People told me Atlas Shrugged was SUCH a good book. It's not. She put her ideology before the creative artistic process.; killed the story.
I'm smiling about Ayn Rand comment. I love her. It’s reading about her philosophy brought me to read about Dr. Peterson. But I agree the comparison too... :)
Ayn Rand is nothing but crap. We value humans fro much more then their ability. If a better looking and smarter man then your husband showed up, would you dump a man you made a vow to, whom you shared so much? No. Thats why Ayn Rand's central theory is crap.
Maria Smith Perhaps I have misunderstood her, but it is from Ayn Rand I have really understood how important it is to stand by my word. A wow is not something you can simply break without loosing self respect. You will have to live knowing you sacrificed someone else for what ever gain you imagine you got from it. Sacrificing others or self is the biggest sin according to Ayn Rand (actually according to Man’s nature, but you get what I mean). Having self respect is absolutely paramount. I am really interested in why so many people say things like you do, that seem to attack the precise opposite of her philosophy as if it was hers.
One of my favourite Disney movies is "Pocahontas"; it also has a goal, a very obvious one, but it also has a good justification for that. There is a more serious, somber tone and "Colors of the Wind" is probably the best Disney song - to me, that is.
my two favorites have always been Beauty and the Beast and The Little Mermaid. I find that there's so much depth in them. That's my judge of a good movie; you could write a 1000 different papers on them.
Not a huge fan of The Little Mermaid of Beauty and the Beast (not even the original animation) but I agree with everything that JB said. Gosh, sometimes he says something that does kinda makes me feel uncomfortable but he is so neutral in tone, well-meaning and so intelligent that I keep coming back to listen to him. (edit) also, Crime and Punishment is a bomb y'all.
You're wrong on this one JP. You won't change a monster! That's why there are so many single mothers because they think they're going to tame their man but it usually doesn't work! Find a virtuous man ... not a wuss ... but a strong virtuous man.
I only read the original farytale and there the beast treated the girl very kind and respectfull and she didnt need to change him. She only had to let go of her father and than the beast that was nearly dying without her turned into a prince. Theres no hint in the story that he was the kind of monster JP wanted to see in it, but as I said i only read the original farytale.
I love this! Thank you Jordan Peterson for verbalizing what art is while so many artists can't. The art world has been swarmed by imposters for about a hundred years now. I have had this conversation so many times when I'm sketching. "What are you drawing?" "I don't know." Or "What is this a drawing of" "I don't know. " Art used to be considered a form of prayer. Look at the beautiful illuminated manuscripts of medieval monasteries. Now people are wholly ignorant of this function on art.
I cry every time I see beauty and the beast. 35 years of marriage and she still is my beauty, but she also still gets goosebumps when i hug her tight. When I met her I had not bathed in 3 weeks because I was too busy. She was 18 when she married me 5 months later and I freed her from the tyranny of her mother immediately. She respects me, and I love her.
Lion king is clearly established propaganda supporting the royal family and the superiority of royal blood to rule us all. Or maybe its just a cartoon. Convince me.
From IMDB:
"The Lion King is very similar to a story almost unknown to Western culture but one of the most beloved historical stories of the Niger Congo language family (western Africa). It is a story about one of their greatest kings - "Sundiata: An Epic of Old Mali". The main character Sundiata (which, directly translated, means "the lion king") is a young prince banished from his homeland by his family after his father dies. The story tracks his overcoming of emotional and physical ailments to later return to his kingdom and battle the evil sorcerer king who has overtaken it in his absence."
However, I have a hard time seeing Americans deliberately promoting obedience to royalty, for obvious historical reasons.
Haha so paranoid
@@patrikjuhlin3833 i mean. literally half of all cultures have a story like that. i doubt disney went so far for it lol
@@dianeghazaryan4773 Yes I feel that is highly unlikely, it’s that type of ancient mythical story we find in most cultures, as you say.
The entire thing is stolen from Japanese artist.
We need Jordan Peterson Movie Reviews
I'd like to know is opinion over the ghibli films. Especially Grave of the Fireflies.
Tiger Jin And Ben Shapiro's rap album
Hoo I'd love to see that!
I want him to analyze the Marvel and DC movies. I'd be super curious to see what his thoughts were.
👏movie 👏review 👏
"Everything out of Hollywood is a goal now. More than story."
"And that can't last. It's the story that will last."
How thankful I am to hear that. How good it feels to hear.
YES!!!
@@kathyshogue2149 Right?? I mean if you think about it. . . only the best stories survive the test of time.
Exactly right!
You are deluded. All that has been built will be torn down and you won`t see the rise of truth in this century.
Hollywood right now is just sucking off China honestly
0:56 - "'Harmless' is not virtuous. 'Harmless' is dangerous." - Jordan Peterson
His.mind too fast for his expression to comprehend
To be honest, that triggered a bit of self reflection on myself. Cutting, yet true.
@@dongypooh same. bit of a wakeup call
“The artist shouldn’t be able to say exactly what they’re doing. Art bears the same relationship to culture as the dream does to mental stability, your dream doesn’t say what it’s about, it just is...the dream extends you beyond where you already are, that’s what art is” -JP
Many artists knew exactly what they were/are saying..now the direction and power they release to the unknown force AKA love
@@mediatechjohn3088 If you know what you are saying, then you aren't making art, you are making propaganda. Art precedes understanding.
Was just about to comment this. One of the deepest and most powerful quotes I've ever heard. Especially in less than 3 sentences.
@ 4:00
That's why I don't like modern art or those essays next to a piece. Art shouldn't need an explanation, or even have one. It's meaning should be easy to find but also infinite, because everyone should be able to find their own meaning from it.
"...and if you're aiming at a moral statement, then it's not art - it's propaganda - and it will fall flat"
He's looking at you - Last of Us 2
Super underrated comment. Video games are next in line for indoctrination and that game shows us this. 😢
He just nailed why Star Wars Original Trilogy was awesome and the Sequel Trilogy sucks.
whatt?? had my hopes up for years
There is no moral statement in that game wtf XD. You just can't see it cuz you don't want to accept that LoU2 doesn't divide it's characters into good - winners/bad -losers. The game is an exploration of grief, it tells a story, it doesn't make a statement....
@@nemir6872 Mhm
The original Beauty & The Beast... not the live-action one.
Geek Owt Lowd their the exact same movie
Andy Bailey no, they’re really not
@@andybailey524 Nowhere near the same.
Not the live action one.
Toys to Life I haven’t seen the live action how exactly was it not the same story?
The guy is so intelligent and well spoken that it's interesting to hear his thoughts on almost any subject, even Disney movies.
So him misunderstanding the message of beauty and the beast, not knowing the lion king is Hamlet, is intelligent?. Vsad.
@@CafeCoda wtf
Is anyone going to point out how well the carpet is lined up with the bottom of the screen?
Putting that carpet there properly is someones job.
I was once a designer in architecture and graphic design... its 👌🏽 perfecto
Ramsey Mudryk JBP would tell you that is someone's conscientious effort to bring order out of chaos.
The camera angle is a work of art. It makes the whole room very geometrical. The work of art that is this interview is about right angles and the importance of straight thinking.
Dude I was just thinking that, who ever did that Im forever greatfull of them
"a woman who is afraid of men can't separate competence from tyranny" is an apt observation
Disney should hire JBP
too late now... its full of commies
messyties Disney doesn't like originality
Cake# anymore
Not possible considering how retarded it has become already.. I’d rather it burn to ashes
Let's crowdfund something instead. Preferably something involving lobsters
when he started to talk about how important the story is and how if the end goal is a moral statement it's just propaganda...well, it instantly reminded me of The Las of Us Part 2....
for the protection of the last of us 2, you can curse over 90 percent of the game and movie franchise i would say, when it comes to planned moral outcomes or in general story telling where the artist (the writer) knows exactly where he wants to go or is it really only the last of us 2?
Well, the penultimate feminist Karen and nadir of the human species, the one and fortunately only Anita Sarkeesian was involved in consulting the wiring for that pretentious video game that wished it was a movie that's just fifteen hours of misery porn, so you're not wrong...
@@rahulkhairwal I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't even referring to Ellie being gay or to Lev being Trans. I think that those particular aspects were done quite nicely actually. I was referring to the theme of the game, "the cycle of violence" and the fact that we need to forgive, otherwise we loose ourselves in revenge. You can write a book, a movie or a game around that premise and make it good, but in TLoU2 it has been there from begging to end and it has been pushed down our throats alongside cheap player manipulation (and people who didn't get what they were trying to do are gullible beyond belief). Nothing felt natural and the whole game was totally dependent on certain characters making stupid decisions (like Ellie going after Abby 2 years after everything happened even though she had the most amazing life you could have in a freaking zombie apocalypse). + there are so many plot holes that the game depends on (like Tommy not wanting to avange Joel in the beginning but after two years he conveniently shames Ellie into going after her because plot). Great stories don't tell you what to think and this whole storie was just about how there are other "Ellies" out there (Abby) and how they both do horrible stuff for what they believe is right, but they might be wrong and hurt the other person. And don't even make me start with that ending. The whole reason why Ellie forgave Abby at the last last moment was because they had to give us that "revenge is bad and Ellie lost everything because of it" ending. It was beyond convenient, that's why so many people are calling bs on that. They only focused on the morality of the story and didn't focus on the story itself. Many people who had an emotional reaction "because it's so deep" didn't even learn anything out of it. Are you seriously telling me that you didn't know that revenge was bad and that you need to forgive yourself and others to not let your life go to shit? Are you telling me that you didn't know that? (Well, not you, but people who do...you get it).
@@toobelxxx you can look at my comment that I wrote for Rhaul if you want to undertand my opinion better. I think it's vital to have a goal and to know where you want the story to go when you begin writing it. I played games and read books and watched movies and you can totally sense when the author doesn't know in which direction he wants to go twords and it's not nice. But the moral aspect of TLoU2 was put above everything else. (and here you can read that comment to understand why I say that). They built the plot around that. They created a new character just to be able to tell that story. They made her do disgusting stuff and then they tried to make you think that she is not that bad by saving her enemies (even though Joel saved her too and she didn't give a shit about him). Then they made Ellie do disgusting stuff just so that the player could see that "they are not that different" and their truths are only personal truths and what is right or wrong is totally subjective, etc. All the narrative decisions that they made was in pursuit of that theme of "the cycle of violence". Even if you want to take the deeper aspect of it which is "forgiveness" they still relied on the characters making dumb decisions for that to happen (and by that I mean Ellie losing everything because she realized that she wants to forgive Abby and herself only after she lost Dina and the kid and the perfect life and after days of hunting Abby and after a 10 minute boss fight and after she lost 2 fingers). It's not realistic. And although a zombie apocalypse is not realistic either you should at least make the people take realistic decisions (at least if you even want it to be believable, which you should if you are writing that kind of game). You can sense what type of narrative they are pushing down your throat from begging to end and it's all very cheap manipulation which wasn't subtle at all and if you were playing the game or watched it and you didn't get what they were doing... you should sharpen your bs detector to say the least.
@UC8ZHt0zggYjR-TOUi2ftK7g although I do get what you are saying I think I can just agree to disagree. It was way too blunt for me. It's way too manipulative for me and although I undertand why you didn't feel that way, I just rolled my eyes 70% of the game because I knew why those decisions were taken and because for me it was very predictable and unnecessary. My life has not been enriched by any means and my time was also wasted because it wasn't a fun game either (not to say that all games have to be fun, but it has to have a purpose and it didn't have any for me). And I do still think that they put the moral teaching over the story. Think about how the first game was made. They thought about the relationship between the characters and how that would play out in a zobie apocalypse. Nothing fancy there, it's just a father-daughter relationship mixed with zombies. But it's how it all played out that made it so good. They built the story around the story itself, there was no moral statement there. I guarantee you that TLoU2 story started out from the idea of a moral statement by giving different perspectives. And then they built everything around that. All that happenes in the game is for that specific ending and for that specific statement. I get why you liked it, but I didn't and I still think it's objectively badly written and all that JP said in the video I think it applies here. You can't take anything else from the story outside of what they intend for you to take. No relationship has substance and if it does (Ellie's and Dina's) it's still to make it so that Ellie has something to loose. Can you see why I say that everything was build around the moral teaching? Portal 2 is one of my favorite games (if not my favorite). It's fun and interesting. It made me laugh and it made me cry. You can take away different things and teachings from it. That your friends are not always your friends. That power corrupts. That you can find things in common even with your worst enemy. That even your worst enemy has a soul and sometimes they don't do bad stuff to hurt you, it's just a robot that has been programmed to do that and it corrupted it until it became a human killing machine, lol. All jokes aside it kept you entertained while it also made you think and contemplate about certain aspects of life (even if they weren't that deep either). They were subtle and they were built around the plot. Those are just some things that you might take from it. At the end of the day that's why you play games and read books and watch movies. If you really want to learn anything significant enough to change your life you read an encyclopedia or even the Bible (if that fancies you) and watch a documentary or a lecture or a podcast. In these mediums the story matters the most and that's why I think JP was 100% right on this. If you got something out of it, that's great, that's awesome. I just didn't. (Plus I think it has a lot of objective narrative problems) (and it was definitely after 2 years, Dina's pregnancy went for 9 months and that baby had at least 1 year lol )
Jordan is dead on point here. As a musician, the songs I've written where I was just letting the art develop itself are songs not only are the ones people like most, but the ones I learn the most about myself from. There's a solo bass piece I wrote over a span of six months that I just let grow on it's own. Once I finally felt that the piece had reached it's full potential value, I have spent a while just playing through it and studying what I feel from it. Like Jordan said, it's the same way you would interpret a dream.
is there any way we could ever hear it?
ceeqanguel I would love to record it. Honestly once you leave the bass or guitar I’m pretty clueless in what to do when it comes to recording. I have an interface but haven’t really taken the time to learn how to use it.
Nick Murray Just record it on here
bro. as a fellow musician, 100% agree. People used to ask me why I wrote such sad music and I could not really explain to them how I had absolutely no control over it. And if I ever tried to control, it was always a disgusting outcome.
Another fellow Musician agrees with...
Wow! JP was on point here. Art is like a dream. Vs propaganda starts with a goal and stitches a story after.
This is why the question "what's it about" drives writers crazy. And "What are you drawing" for artists.
Spot on!
Exactly! Peterson totally gets it!
Jennifer Thimell If you can’t summarise your art, it’s unfinished
if people didn't die they would still improve, an artists journey is always unfinished, nothing is completely understood. Many current artists probably could summarise their work, because they're after an image.
The last time I was asked "What are you drawing" I sat there for a minute thinking what to say, and I came up with "A normal man purchasing lies at the grocery store".
This is also why people are still studying and listening to Beethoven while Justin Bieber has practically lost relevance.
@JCO2able Great reply mate. And so true.
@JCO2able Bieber will be a footnote in the book of popular music 100 years from now; lumped into the same sentence with Britney Spears and others. Undoubtedly, that sentence, possibly even buried in the footnote, will be about the particular dearth of quality in popular music during that time period and the prevalence of commerciality. "People just like it because it's old[?]" If that were true Jimmie Rogers would be more popular than Jimi Hendrix. Get outta here with that! Get 'em JC!
Lewrongeneration
@@arunkeshavadas7171 obsession? oh dear you are one of the crazy ones
@JCO2able absolutely bang on
2:30 is the reason why Hollywood makes a lot of garbage movies more than ever now. They have a goal/agenda they want to reach, and the writing and storytelling comes second
And they were discouraged from being creative or using their imagination. That must be the case, because ALL they can do is remakes. And they can't even make those worth watching.
@@laurenbatson5918 exactly right, i have nothing against remakes, but most modern movies are so bankrupt of creativity, they have to be doing it on purpose.
JP: "Frozen is pure propaganda. "
Dave: "Have you seen The Last Jedi? "
JP: "Frozen is pure Shakespeare."
Lol!
😂
Reylo could have been Beauty & The Beast, but they instead killed it with feminism!
@@My_eyes_hurt yup
This is one of my favorite JP clips 👌
why? I agree with almost nothing he says here. It can only be Art if you dont know what you are doing? Thats really narrow minded. His dostojevski example is so stupid... like the characters didnt exist in his mind?
Its one perspective on Art. Maybe you could find a sub-category, or a sub-value of artistic values. One value might be skill and craft. Another is what JP sees as a intuitive/existential dialogue with reality.
And have you ever been aware during dreaming? If you have then you know that the "dream characters" seem to act all on their own. In writing a story writers can get into that kind of state where it seems to them as if the story is just happening (or that it happened) and theyre just trying to record it.
Also dude cmon it cant be my favorite clip cause YOU "agree with almost nothing he says " sounds a little narrow minded.
Rob Vel i dont think it has no merit. But he always phrases it like hes Talking about the one and only truth, not as you rightly say: an Aspekt of the truth.
if he had to qualify everything he said with the counter point it would take all the punchyness of what hes saying. He obviously holds that aspect of art in higher regard than the other (or others). But I dont think he devalues it or ignores it, just hear how he praises some of Ayn Rand. Um but I dont think Im understanding what you mean by "Aspect of the truth" vs "one and only truth"
Rob Vel an Aspect of the truth about Art I meant.
But yea i dont really disagree with you about Anything.
But: I do think JP phrases what he Is Saying deliberately in a way that he can backtrack when criticized but still Sound impressive and „radical“. which does explain his popularity but makes what he Says much less valuable.
WRITERS. STORYTELLERS. THIS. IS. STORYTELLING. 101.
I'm offended that he didn't choose Mulan.
"Let's get down to business"
Yung Thunder best disney song
Rice Waster Aleks eh, I've always been a fan of "Girl Worth Fighting For".
to defeat the huns! Did they send me daughters? When I asked for sons.
Yo have you heard Jackie Chan sing it? Worth a watch lolol
You're the saddest bunch I ever met.
But you can bet before we're through,
Having gone to an art college, you could always tell the true artists from the amateurs. I remember one time in my traditional animation class with a classmate of mine who is now a Lead Character Designer for Sony. She came over to me while I was at our capture station, which is essentially the booth where you take your finished drawings and take pictures of them frame by frame to assemble them into a video.
She came over and started tearing off pieces of paper from a scrap pile, placing them on the capture board, and taking snapshots. She would move them a little and then take it again. She was essentially making a stop-motion story with scraps of paper. It was extremely crude and fast of course, but this is what fascinated me. She was a true artist. She had no sophisticated plan or motive... she was literally playing at creating. It's completely counter-intuitive, but she wasn't afraid of failure, or the unknown, or making something bad. This was her process of discovering what was GOOD. Artists make things, and discover truth through that process itself.
I have never thought that way, even as a successful commercial artist 15 years later. She was a true creative, and has skyrocketed in the industry.
I love when he talks about Dostoyevsky!
As an inspiring artist it feels so true what he says about art itself. Everyone thinks you know what you are doing while you are figuring it out yourself.
It's funny how often writers are told to "write what they know". Wow, I really learnt something from this. Wish a lot more aspiring writers/artists could see this.
Theres definitely truth to "write what you know" but the message is vague and has been muddied ...and this is amazing advice from JP
I think a lot of people misinterpret or misunderstand this advice, it’s more like “write about what you know.” The nuance is totally different. For example, the setting should be something you “know”, you shouldn’t write a main character with a strong specialist background (maybe a aviator, doctor or engineer) unless you know a little bit about it (although you dont have to be an expert yourself.) But I don’t think this quote talks to the story or ultimate plot at all.
Wow.. the last 2 minutes were more informative on the process of conceiving a compelling story than any creative writing or literature class I had in HS or college.
I always love hearing Peterson talk about art, it's so honest and passionate, its like he truly loves what he talks about
And one more time Jordan Peterson breaks my mind
Daire Kerin I'd say it's already broken
Wow.....I was just starting to write my first story ever and I've been beating my head trying to come up with a masterpiece and this guy just explained why that was the wrong approach. The story should be spontaneous, it should unfold as you go, don't force the story. The writer needs to be as clueless as the viewer/reader in the process of writing. Planned stories always fall apart it seems.
As someone who has only dabbled in writing for a bit, I've learned that if you aren't learning as your writing, then your story probably isn't interesting. It'll be just a stale as the most generic tripe that comes out of Hollywood.
For tips of writing, I’ve written stories my whole life (hobby), just write whatever you like, what you know, and write down whatever comes to mind. You don’t have to force yourself. Just do it for fun. It may not be easy but at least it helps you to use your imagination.
Sometimes it's helpful to know your ending though
In case you still see this: there are two approaches to writing, one is the 'gardening' approach which is more spontaneous, and there is the 'architect' approach where the story is planned head of time. Most writers prefer 'gardening' because it feels more lively. The problem with 'gardening' style writing is that inexperienced authors can write themselves into corners, introduce plotholes and have difficulty resolving plot threads. GRR Martin is an example of a gardening style writer, gardening style writing is actually MORE likely to end up falling apart or never being finished, especially in the hands of an inexperienced writer. There isn't anything wrong with architectural writing, especially when you are starting out, many successful authors are architectural and their publishers love them for it. Just write, you will find what approach you like best.
Thanks, your comment made me feel better. I also agree about the point that the gardening style paired with inexperience often produces downright unreadable stories, not to mention the finish rate.
Wreck It Ralph is incredible because the moral of the story is to be happy that you get to help other people overcome their obstacles and enjoy their lives and not just your own, and there is great joy in even making sacrifice in yourself so you can see someone thrive for the first time.
Beauty And The Beast is my favorite fairytale. I relate to it. Jordan has said that he wants to do a video on Beauty And The Beast, but unless I've somehow missed it, I don't think he has. I would be so happy to see an in-depth breakdown from him.
I would LOVE Jordan Peterson to watch and analyze Cowboy Bebop. What he's saying about the art of storytelling in the classic Disney movies rings doubly true for Cowboy Bebop.
Thats the most genious idea of 2018 for me. I'd love seeing this happening
Bebop, Haibane Renmei, and Made in Abyss. I'd be satisfied with twenty minutes each in a one hour lecture.
50srefugee What if he watched Death Note.
Tesseract: Dunno, haven't watched Death Note myself.
50srefugee Made in Abyss or Houseki no Kuni!
3:40 i totally know what rubin means when he says this. i had that same exact thought towards the end of hacksaw ridge
My favorite war movie
I would pay to hear his critique of "There Will Be Blood"
My thoughts exactly! Same goes for The Master. That's what PTA does; he creates characters with their own ideoligies and eventually let them go to battle
Ugh that movie is so fucking good. It's so open. I could watch it once a week.
Elwin van der Meer I've been thinking the same thing for a while. If i could choose one movie to watch with him "thr master" would be it
That's an excellent choice. That really explores the type of storytelling JP was talking about, with fully formed characters placed into a world, seeing where the story goes, and doing battle.
Not a wanker but I would fap to this.
Another GREAT story that fits the Archetypal female hero perfectly is the story of Tam Lin (best known as one of the Child Ballads--there are quite a few folk renditions of it). Please check it out. It's simply wonderful. The heroine of the story is a woman Janice. Her love interest is the mysterious, and possibly a malevolent fairy, Tam Lin who haunts the local forest. Janice is warned to stay away from the forest but goes anyway to pick flowers. Anyway, she encounters Tam Lin, there's some romance, and BOOM, she's pregnent with his child. The problem is, Tam Lin is actually a prisoner of the Queen of the Fairies. To rescue her lover from the fairies, she has to pull him down from his horse and hold on to him tightly--then she can reclaim her lover. During the climax of the story, the Fairy Queen tries to force Janice to let go by turning Tam Lin into all sorts of monstrous creatures (a wolf, a bear, etc.) but Janice has to hold on bravely. Eventually, Tam Lin turns back into a man, and is freed from the Fairies, now able to wed Janice and be a proper father to her child.
Anyway, it's a bit more pagan and less Christian than Beauty and the Beast, but there are some obvious shared female archetype tropes.
It sounds like the archetypal story of men breaking out of the chains of their tyrannical mother and growing up into functional responsible men and fathers.
How interesting. I've seen interviews with George RR Martin where he talks about how he never knows where the story is going, even as he writes it, and if he does know, he gets bored or scraps it. He doesn't like to know where his story is leading him. Perhaps that's why Game of Thrones is so incredible. I wonder what JP's take on a Song of Ice and Fire is.
It's interesting how many non-artists know so much about art and artists. Bless You, JP your fascination with Disney cartoons is exactly why our culture is at a perpetual juvenile level of understanding. I'm not saying that maturity is not happening. When people get tired of this kind of schlock and stop paying for it the artistic subject matter will begin to grow and the story structures will do exactly the same thing.
Yeah I'd have to say this strikes me as bullshit. Great novelists of the 20th century - McCarthy, Pynchon, Keroac, Burroughs, Joyce, even if there was spontaneity in their productions, they knew what they were doing. Great work is inherently philosophical and as such inherently political. The disney movies he likes are every bit as ideological as frozen is, he just happens to agree with them.
@@therusteddoor It might be a reason why our generations fail to grow up and now we're paying the price.
@@malcolmwatt4866 I agree fullstop. Art needs to be challenging. Its functional purpose is to help you grow your understanding - his comment on picasso is particularly salient here. I'm 19 and find discussing art with people my own age very difficult as a lot of people seem to have lost interest in and exposure to longform challenging content entirely - and even worse - they don't care to seriously consider what it means to be consuming short form disposable content. When novels or films, or hell even TV shows were dominant people were at least forced to consume something of artistic weight.
@@therusteddoor Lets' face it artistic endeavors are supposed to be as you suggest. In this techno-world of mass media that has been completely relegated out the door in favor of a propagandist's ax-grinding and fueling judgments and retributions, or simply raising hell. It is so easy to fall into that trap.
I've been studying fairy tales over the past time and their effects on children and our society. There read somewhere that a good story is timeless and that's why stories like sleeping beauty, snow white, hansel and gretel have survived over time but maybe why the story of frozen won't survive. (I did like frozen a lot though because it was so nice to see a Disney movie without romantical love in the center because that hasn't been a thing ever in my life so far so I've never been able to identify myself with it.) I think JP said something like this here when he mentioned the difference with propaganda. Art is an interesting phenomenon. I have to dig deeper in to that.
Laura Hamdi it’s a mutilated version of Hans Christian Anderson’s Snow Queen which was a phenomenal story
I love his appreciation for these Disney’s, to go as far as call them perfect, much respect ✊🏽 I rewatch the Disney classics all the time
I'd like to mention that I often isolate myself on the weekends just to get in touch with myself and watch movies like this that speak to the deep parts of my soul.
That is "Hacksaw ridge" and "Gladiator"
Beauty and the Beast is my favorite. Artistically Sleeping Beauty. I also loved Sword in the Stone and Robin Hood.
Robin Hood taught me taxes are tyrannical =) oooda lallie
Sword in The Stone is possibly my favourite Disney film, but I cannot decide between that and Bedknobs and Broomsticks and Sleeping Beauty.
When Jordan says, “into the unknown” I couldn’t stop thinking of Frozen lol
Kathleen Kennedy should give this clip a watch . . .
George Lucas is star wars. It's his dream. Him selling it was a bad idea.
James Douds dude made 4 billion and he was sick of it.
When I say "his dream". I'm talking about him coming up with the story that become a loved story. His choice to selling it was his choice. I just don't think SW can recover from it.
this actually solved a massive creative problem for me because I realized that I am being asked to create the meaning before the art UGH! This is brilliant. I literally started clapping midway through lolllll
Oh yes fabulous, Beauty and the Beast is one of my all time favorite messages, and my youngest daughter loves it.
Forget the disney stuff.... His definition of what art is and what a true artist is just blew my mind. Ive never heard it put better
Love JP's mind so much. Wish I could have an hour long convo with him.
I love JP's body language. He is so honest and enthusiastic. I rarely enjoy listening to the typically smug and condescending academic psychologist--but JP delivers the interesting tidbits of psychology without the icd9 code shuffle.
The framing and composition of this shot is very satisfying, especially that rug edge along the bottom. Nice work.
@5:40 "She's not Dostoyevsky. He' was the greatest writer ever" Once again, I feel JP on a spiritual level.
Who is the "she" that he made reference to?
@@almasuarez1167 curious about that too
@@almasuarez1167 Ayn Rand
@@PowerRedBullTypology Ayn Rand
It's so true . Frozen will be forgotten . But when you think of a princess and of Disney the first thing that pops in my mind in Cinderella snow white little mermaid etc. Still to this day I'm 23 I'm opssesed with these fairytales I love them.
I think pure art is emotional expression that the creator likes the outcome when it is done for the liking of others then it is mostly a product for social recognition and money
I know it’s a long shot but I would really like to hear his thoughts on the Fullmetal Alchemist 😄
I think he will find it quite interesting...
I love hearing him talk about art, I hear so much of the opposite opinion from the art community, especially those who aren't actually artists- gallery owners, critics and the like. But I really agree with Jordan (I'm a painter btw), it's about the process, and just using it to serve up a pre-determined, rigid message, "this is what I want people to see" is ridiculous. I don't even like to explain my work, unless directly asked
listening to this man has helped me as an artist and a writer, A LOT ...
OH MY GOD I am an art student at a prestigious university. Whenever someone would ask me what I was up to in a painting, I’d never know what to tell them. I don’t know. I’m figuring it out, but I don’t know. I was always made to feel bad for that, except by a few professors who felt the same way. Now I know why. J Peterson got the nail on the head.
"He didn't know the answer when he started writing."
GRRM?
In a sense.
You can invoke the dichotomy between the architect and the gardener here but you know what? Gardeners put up fences. You can pave a path, and erect a greenhouse but still have no idea what exactly you'll be growing in a season from now. So, I'll give the architect credit as an artist so long as what they're keeping confined in their box of tools and manuals of terminology is the seed for further unknowns down the road.
"being a failure doesn't make you an artist" Jordan Peterson
I don't know.. I felt like adding this here was needed
Reminds me of how George R.R Martin developed some of the GoT characters.
He is right about Frozen. My daughter used to love it and was fascinated by it as a child. She is now in her teens. She can't stand watching it at all. On the contrary, she longs for Beauty and the Beast and feels happy and nostalgic for watching it.
Fantasia is by far my favorite Disney film.
Yes, but it's not an integrated coherent story. Dancing hippos and alligators? Come on. The Nutcracker vignettes are lovely, but story? Characterizations? Nu-uh. Some of the individual pieces (Sorcerer's Apprentice, ferex) are, but Disney's retellings don't dig very deeply into them.
50srefugee
Well, it wasn't exactly trying to be a big narrative film. I don't see any point in criticizing it for that. Thats like criticizing a comedy for not being scary .
Its more like psychedelics trip than a narrative, love it tho
I love how excited he gets when he talks about Dostoevsky.
“...if you’re aiming at a moral statement, then it’s not art - it’s propaganda. And it will fall flat.”
Lookin at you, Promising Young Woman 👀
when he talks about dostoyevsky i remembered berserk storyline and characters. They change a lot and a lot of things happen that don't feel predecible
i watched frozen once and have no desire to watch it again. But I can watch old Disney movies hundreds of times (and have)
Beauty and the Beast I have worked out is an analogy of the Christian view of justification and salvation
JBP would say that it shows how civilisation arose by the process of women turning monsters into heroes
@Savage Jesus
i used to think that too but i'm not so sure anymore. i think the main reason is because the beast actually changes and becomes a better person throughout the course of the film. she didn't fall in love with the "Beast", she fell in love with the "man" she helped him become.
Savage Jesus Stockholm Syndrome occurs when the victim begins to sympathize with their captor's views and begins to justify them as a psychological means of survival. Belle never fell in love with or justified the Beast's violence and savagery. He instead modified his actions and character under her guidance. It was only when he showed progress in taming his bestial nature, showing kindness and a desire to learn that she began to love him.
Jessica McAtarian and he loved her enough to set her free. And she came back for him.
So jesus was ugly?
About Beauty and the Beast. To be a little less literal in the analysis, could we look at the "Beast" as an aspect of Beauty herself : her own sexuality. She was her father's favourite daughter. She left home, thus leaving behind undesirable complications, personified in her stepsisters . Embracing her own sexuality, personified in the Beast, was a natural and desirable course for her life to take. And how about The Beast as the Animus of Beauty? Dr Peterson?
Some of these fairytales are cosmic, rather than social.
For instance, Snow Whiite is the snow-whiite moon who is followed by her seven dwarves - the Moon followed by the seven planets that follow the moon in a long line around the ecliptic.
The evil witch is the Milky Way, who is being outshone by the glamorous snow whiite moon. So she puts a corset on snow whiite, to make her thinner and thinner, until she dies. Just as the waning moon gets thinner and thinner in the heavens above, until it ‘dies’ (the New Moon).
But just as the moon dies (the new moon) she kisses the Sun-prince in an solar eclipse, and comes back to life as the waxing moon. And remember that a solar eclipse can only happen with a ‘dead’ New Moon.
Snow White is a tale of the Cosmos.
RE.
Such an interesting perspective! And can't the cosmic also relate to the social, though at a micro-level? This is what astrology does, after all.
Wonder what Dr. Peterson thinks of the Miyazaki movies, would love to have his take on that as most of the movies are “without a goal”.
He'd probably have several hours of lectures for each one, but he'd also criticize how deliberate the theming is, going by what is said here.
Spirited Away would be my first choice, but I'd rather see other movies get analyzed
5:52 sounds a bit like GRRM too. Bad things happen to good people in Ice and Fire (GoT) if they don't play their cards right, or for simply chance alone
Jordan Peterson appreciated Logan, my fav X-men movie and wayy better than all the Marvel movies people are so crazy about these days so, it was very satisfying to hear that.
He put The Little Mermaid, my favourite Disney movie, as top notch!
A perfect example of this is Star Wars, regardless of the criticisms of any of the original 6 films done by Lucas, they were all made to emphasize an original story in an original universe and produced in the hopes of telling a genuine story. These new Disney produced films are completely politically motivated regarding the character additions and motivations. The Force Awakens is blatantly just A New Hope but in modern "PC" terms, there's nothing intelligent or original about it.
Seems like an excuse for those born without talent: "True creators aren't SUPPOSED to understand their creation, let alone audiences! I'm a genius because I don't know what I'm doing! No great creator does!" That's very Millennial. Meanwhile, classic Disney writers were master storytellers because they were actually talented, and they completely understood storytelling because they studied hard.
Beauty and the Beast describes my marriage. I never thought of it that way, or as an archetype. But it is.
I think the aspect of the Lion King was intriguing, but Peterson made a rare error because the story still stands timelessly today, and will still be remembered years from now. The discussion was given from an archetypal point of view, but at the same time, the actual storytelling and emotional narration remains leaps and bounds ahead of what Disney usually puts out.
I think that Star Wars the original trilogy was a great story (for the most part), while the Force Awakens was highly propagandistic as they describe. That's why Star Wars stood the test of time: it is a deeply mythological story.
And George Lucas really, REALLY didn't know what he was doing. Sometimes that will work (original trilogy) and sometimes not (prequels).
Well, maybe in that case it was his then wife, Marcia Lucas, which worked as an editor on the original trilogy and proposed many of the changes made to the final cuts of the films. She didn't work on the prequels, though, and it seems to show.
Is it just me or is Star Wars from episode 1 to 6 quite similar to the story of Macbeth.
I liked the prequels. The slow and methodical destruction of a society from within was interesting. Palpatine used the cracks that were already there to bring down the whole structure. It was smooth and elegant and tragically realistic. But since most people don't notice when it's happening in the real world, I guess that that subtelity went over their heads and they prefer the simplicity of shooting down a couple of DeathStars.
And while Anakin was annoying, he made sense.
On one hand, he knows that he is the strongest Force user, on the other hand, the Council does not consider a word he is saying. A fact that cost him his mother's life. They distrust him and he knows it, so he looks for a paternal figure that seems to give him what he wants and needs. Trust, respect and advice that does not consist of mere platitudes.
He cannot flirt, but he was raised by a group of emotionally detached fighting monks. It would be strange, if he could flirt.
His fall to the Dark Side was brilliantly initiated throughout the movies. It was not unexpected or illogical. The society and the complexity of war and its different groups of interest were much more interesting in the prequels. The original trilogy was just more of the good vs evil cliche. I liked the original trilogy, but I don't understand why everyone considers the prequels to be so much worse.
The problem with Force Awakens isn't just that it's propaganda. It's because there is no inspiration or imagination behind it. They just tried to make an imitation of what was successful before. Replace the emperor with Snoke, the empire with the first order, the deathstar with starkiller base, R2D2 with BB8 on the run with secret data. Was really creatively bankrupt, a whole galaxy of possibilities and they came up with that.
3:52 "Dreams sacrifice cohesion for completion."
We need a dedicated RUclips channel for Jordan Peterson analyzing Disney cartoons.
We need to get back to drawn disney movies etc.
I would like to know Jordy's take on Little Mermaid.
Exactly.
He’s said it before... rising from the uncounsious represented by the ocean, gain knowledge and be a whole, complete human being... also obtaining your own voice... obviously I am paraphrasing..
Jordy? Haha. I may use that.
I'm wondering what he thinks of Hercules. As a story of personal development and identity
@@dom3712 That's a good one but a little obvious coming of age tale lol. I want to know his take on Notre Dame or Aladdin.
My thoughts on Ayn Rand exactly. People told me Atlas Shrugged was SUCH a good book. It's not. She put her ideology before the creative artistic process.; killed the story.
Wait, Atlas Shrugged has a story??
I think that the best example of how dangerous a "harmless" man is is the Joel Shoemaker film Falling Down.
Goodness, I just love how he demolishes Frozen
Lion king was just a retelling of Hamlet. I think JP overanalyzed it hehehe
mymealias Just without the Oedipal mother, right? It could be a Cain and Abel adaptation because of brother killing brother.
@@Senate300 I always thought so as well.
This explains me perfectly. I've always liked tempered men.
Hunchback of Notre Dame is absolutely fantastic and it never gets it's fair say
Treasure planet is the most underrated disney movie
Note to self: 4:42, extrapolation/a priori justification
I'm smiling about Ayn Rand comment. I love her. It’s reading about her philosophy brought me to read about Dr. Peterson. But I agree the comparison too... :)
Ayn Rand is nothing but crap. We value humans fro much more then their ability. If a better looking and smarter man then your husband showed up, would you dump a man you made a vow to, whom you shared so much? No. Thats why Ayn Rand's central theory is crap.
Maria Smith Perhaps I have misunderstood her, but it is from Ayn Rand I have really understood how important it is to stand by my word. A wow is not something you can simply break without loosing self respect. You will have to live knowing you sacrificed someone else for what ever gain you imagine you got from it. Sacrificing others or self is the biggest sin according to Ayn Rand (actually according to Man’s nature, but you get what I mean). Having self respect is absolutely paramount. I am really interested in why so many people say things like you do, that seem to attack the precise opposite of her philosophy as if it was hers.
One of my favourite Disney movies is "Pocahontas"; it also has a goal, a very obvious one, but it also has a good justification for that. There is a more serious, somber tone and "Colors of the Wind" is probably the best Disney song - to me, that is.
my two favorites have always been Beauty and the Beast and The Little Mermaid. I find that there's so much depth in them. That's my judge of a good movie; you could write a 1000 different papers on them.
This could apply so well to the last of us 2
Not a huge fan of The Little Mermaid of Beauty and the Beast (not even the original animation) but I agree with everything that JB said. Gosh, sometimes he says something that does kinda makes me feel uncomfortable but he is so neutral in tone, well-meaning and so intelligent that I keep coming back to listen to him. (edit) also, Crime and Punishment is a bomb y'all.
Okay, now I want a Jordan Peterson psychological deep dive into every Disney movie.
Probably explains why I've watched og Beauty and the Beast 100 times over and Frozen maybe twice.
You're wrong on this one JP. You won't change a monster! That's why there are so many single mothers because they think they're going to tame their man but it usually doesn't work! Find a virtuous man ... not a wuss ... but a strong virtuous man.
I only read the original farytale and there the beast treated the girl very kind and respectfull and she didnt need to change him. She only had to let go of her father and than the beast that was nearly dying without her turned into a prince.
Theres no hint in the story that he was the kind of monster JP wanted to see in it, but as I said i only read the original farytale.
What about Aladdin
Ajmo Sutra or Mulan?
They've cast Will Smith as the Genie in the new remake
It's about cocks in arabia
I love this! Thank you Jordan Peterson for verbalizing what art is while so many artists can't. The art world has been swarmed by imposters for about a hundred years now. I have had this conversation so many times when I'm sketching. "What are you drawing?"
"I don't know."
Or
"What is this a drawing of"
"I don't know. "
Art used to be considered a form of prayer. Look at the beautiful illuminated manuscripts of medieval monasteries. Now people are wholly ignorant of this function on art.
I cry every time I see beauty and the beast. 35 years of marriage and she still is my beauty, but she also still gets goosebumps when i hug her tight. When I met her I had not bathed in 3 weeks because I was too busy. She was 18 when she married me 5 months later and I freed her from the tyranny of her mother immediately. She respects me, and I love her.