Why did Gondor not help Arnor sooner?
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- Опубликовано: 21 ноя 2022
- In this video, we'll look at the reasons why Gondor might not have helped Arnor sooner, and why they only ended up sending help when it was too late.
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This again plays into the tragic stories that Tolkien loved to write. If the sister kingdoms had maintained contact Arnor would have survived and Eriador and the rest of middle-earth would have suffered a little less.
You would think in a few centuries of war Gondor would have been already proactively helping Arnor. Sometimes some of the timeline's periods have too big of gaps where there is too stagnant and not proactive.
You could certainly make that argument. I don't think Tolkien's worldbuilding is bulletproof by any means.
@@DarthGandalfYT
I get there is only so many constructive singular events one author can think and put in his verse but I feel if he prolonged some conflicts, there being more series of disasters and shortcomings that hit these areas and also a proactive sabotage from Sauron's secretive networks causing a near endless amount of longterm issues then I feel like it would make a ton of more sense.
You have to remember that Arnor was regarded as a petty realm by the nobles of Gondor.
They viewed their Northern brethren as lesser for much of their history.
We love you too, Daddy.
They were too busy being absent from the Westfold's fall.
There seems to be a trend of Gondor going missing when they're needed.
I suspect that Arvedui had some secret grudge after the whole situation about the succession and I think he likely thought Gondor looked down on Arthedain as a nation. Gondor at the time likely didn't know the importance losing Arnor to Angmar would have upon their future at the time. The Prophecy told about Arvedui by Malbeth the Seer, was likely referring to the choice made by the council of Gondor about the succession, but the Dunedain of the south chose the simpler route at the time, and that led to both kingdoms being crippled soon afterwards.
That's facts, indeed, in the Unfinished Tales it is specifically stated that the Dunedain of Gondor looked down on the Dunedain of Arnor
I suspect another critical factor was that after the death of Isildur, his son Valandil did not claim the High Kingship of both Gondor and Arnor as Elendil and Isildur had but rather let Gondor become independently ruled by the heirs of Anárion. That made it much easier for the two separate kingdoms to drift apart over the succeeding centuries.
Basically, we can blame 9-year old Valandil for everything.
Really cool dude, it would be so Nice to see more content on Arnor
I think the argument, that the Dunedain of Arnor can't know who the Witch King is doesn't hold water.
The Palantiri were perfect for spying on Angmar. Even if the King of Arthedain wasn't of strong enough will to use a Palantiri that way(which i doubt), Elrond, Glorfindel or Cirdan could, would and should have helped out.
Sauron and probably the Witch King as well could cloak and protect themselves from this, but lets be honest, Angmar surely fielded Orcs and Trolls. If that wasn't enough, the dark magics Angmar had at its disposal should be concern as well.
Even if the Wise couldn't be sure that Angmar was Saurons doing, they should have expected the worst just to be safe. Especially Elrond knew that without the destruction of the Ring Sauron was not dead.
I think the Wise and the leaders of Arthedain and Cardolan act or are portrayed very incompetent here. They didn't use the Palantiri, no wisdom or sense, they ignore the involvement of massed Orcs and Trolls, as Gundabad and Mount Gram were part of the Witch Kings realm(I would be surprised if the Men of Angmar and Hillmen of Rhudaur alone, living in quite the harsh climate, could muster very numerous armies compared to Arthedain and Cardolan). Quite weird to be honest.
They could and should have asked Romendacil. It was the wise and sensible thing to do to spare and safe as many lives as possible. Also why none of the Istari really helped out here, especially Gandalf(Saruman might be in Rhun at this point) is weird.
Something i also never understood was why no one in all this time asked Khazad Dum for help, which was still a very powerful kingdom. Arthedain, Cardolan, the Noldor could have offered valuable trade and help in reconquering Gundabad. It would have been a win win for all the free people involved. Which is why its so unbelievable that all these point didn't happen or weren't even considered.
The problem with Khazad-dum is their isolationist policy. The West-gates were shut in the SA, and the only other time we see the Longbeards come forth is in the war of the Last Alliance. The Dwarves just didn't want to get involved again.
Yeah, honestly, the fall of Arnor is one of Tolkiens weaker stories. There are way too many gaps in the logic, to the point where the good guys look completely incompetent. You're right about the wizards too, I can't fathom Gandalf not doing anything at all while Arnor falls
Great video! Well made! Thank you for covering this topic!
Good video. Would be interesting to know how involved Sauron was with the Kin Strife, especially given the significance of its timing to prevent Gondor from looking north to Arnor and joining them to crush Angmar. Was it just luck concerning the nature of men living in corrupted Arda that benefited Sauron, or were his spies/emissaries (obviously he could not come himself, no longer being able to assume fair forms) stirring up the rebellion.
I don't think Sauron had anything to do with the Kin-strife. Men were perfectly capable of being awful without Sauron's help. I think Castamir was just opportunistic and power-hungry, and Eldacar's heritage simply gave him a casus belli.
I like your videos. I'd like them even more if there were 80% more maps.
The issue of how often the Realms in Exile communicated is a bit unclear. What we do know is that through communications with the North-kingdoms, Gondor learned about the existence of the Hobbits, and that they were 'in close communication' at the time (c. T.A. 1050).
"The Kingdoms of the North and the South remained in close communication at that time, and indeed until much later, and each was well informed of all events in the other region, especially of the migration of people of all kinds. Thus though no "halfling," so far as is known, had ever actually appeared in Gondor before Peregrin Took, the existence of this people within the kingdom of Arthedain was known in Gondor, and they were given the name Halfling, or in Sindarin perian."
- Unfinished Tales
Thanks for that passage. I completely forgot about it. It makes me assume that they must've fallen out of contact sometime between 1400-1650 TA, likely after the Kin-strife or the Great Plague. The Hobbits didn't move to Arthedain until 1600, but it's possible the Gondorians learned of them when they came north to deal with Angmar.
Can you do a what if video about the Blue Wizards? Whatever you want, dealers choice.
What do you think of the new Lotro zones its really cool what they have done 🙃
I haven't seen them yet because I'm unable to buy the expansion because SSG is rather useless.
Is there enough material to make a video solely on Cardolan? I have been very interested especially after the new Lotro expansion.
What is cardolans capital?
@@talesoftheeldar8688 I do not think that is known, however Tharbad was a major city
Borrow downs I believe
@@Fin-mh9jl i dont think so.First we new that dunedain did fortify the south downs as evidents by Aragorn finding a Plant that only grovs where numenorians encapt on.we alsow new that the cardolaniens did mentain a larg garison in vynialonde and tharbad .When angmar attacks from the east in1409 the dunedain were defeted and fleed to the BD and the old forest.If the bd WORLD have been the kindoms capital than the witch-king WORLD have sacked it,like he did to Fornost.I think that he attacked and destroyed the south down(cardolans capital)and that the survivers fleed westverd.
I think there's enough for both Cardolan and Rhudaur. I've recently written and recorded a script about Tharbad too.
I want a video on what if Celebrimbor survived until the war of the ring. Please ❤️
Darth Gandalf heres a video idea, part of the reason Frodo succumbed to the power of the ring was he wore it for so long, but if the fellowship hadn't broken up they had four hobbits so could they have had a relay system with the other hobbits to try and prevent this and could that have been part of the plan.
Problem is that bearing the ring isn't the only thing that can corrupt. Sure, you could get Frodo to stop carrying it, but the ring would still be on his mind. Even with the Hobbit's resistance to corruption, they would still have been corrupted to a degree, and don't forget individuals like Aragorn and Gandalf, which were good, but ultimately could be twisted into believing they should use the ring for good rather than destroy it. Even if they made it to Orodruin, nobody would have cast the ring into the fire, because it's power was at its peak by that mountain, and everyone around it would have been too corrupt to cast it out.
@@Rauruatreides True but if i recall correctly Sam wasn't too negatively effected by his team wearing the ring and he was in Mordor at the time were i assume the power would be stronger, admittedly he was only wearing it a small time, but he did know of the rings presence which is another way the ring corrupts people like Boromir and that was for all the time Frodo was carrying it, in fact he knew of the thing the longest except Frodo and Gandalf.
Though i do accept that Boromir and Aragon might have fallen and caused the fellowship to fail before that point.
Was there no trade going on between Arnor and Gondor during the almost 1,000 years of no contact between the two kingdoms
What would happen if Gandalf made it to Bree on time?
Tarannon: The first ship king
Earnur: The last shit king
Earnur was definitely too impulsive at the end loving war over stability like getting married and having kids
@@alanmike6883 Mardil should've locked him in a room with some women.
@@DarthGandalfYT
Could you imagine it 😂
It is the will of the council no baby no swordplay 🤣 haha
The consequences of which would have long term repercussions..
Dude did you ever watch Rings of Power? I’m dying to hear your thoughts on it. Also, hope all is well.
I did watch it, but as someone who doesn't really consume much TV/film, I'm really struggling to actually review it. And all is well, thank you.
It is in Gondor's nature! Where was Gondor when the Westfold fell!?
If all this help had been sent then Aragorn might never had become king of the reunited Kingdom’s of Gondor and arnor but both sides needed communication as it’s important in everyday life
*Yeah, I mean can be legitimized.*
Question, one which is a variant of the: "How did Sauron not know where The Shire was" - Seeing as the Witch King of Angmar had been waging wars in those lands for a long time against the various human kingdoms, succeeding in overrunning and crushing them, to me, it remains a bit of an odd question how the heck did Sauron not know much about Hobbits and their homeland? Because Hobbits were involved in the wars as combatants against Angmar, and it's in fact how they got gifted the lands they dwell, as I recall. Surely the Witch King, chief of the Nazgul, would have been aware of Hobbits to the point of being able to advise Sauron of them. Considering also how Angmar overran all the human kingdoms up there, it would be utterly baffling of them and their forces not having some knowledge of where these strange small people, whom certainly aint dwarves, who keep helping the human kingdoms fight, come from. Thus, while Sauron might not have known of the Shire, surely the Witch king who's whole realm was in that part of the world would have been very quick to figure the general direction of where The Hobbits are likely hanging out at. It's not like during all the wars up there scouting, gathering intelligence, spycraft, plus making maps of every nook and cranny possible wouldn't have been done. Considering how the Shire is also located in the Witch King of Angmars frontyard, it's pretty curious how peaceful it is up there too as with no human kingdoms left the only things keeping Angmar from dominating everything up there is a bunch of Rangers, a small number of Elves/potential Dwarves, and the Witch-Kings attention being directed to other matters than dominating the leftovers. Which the Shire sure seems to be involved in quite a lot, so again, it aint like the Witch King's attention woulda been elsewhere either, nor like Sauron, being very intelligent, would have neglected to question his chief lieutenant about things regarding the corner of the world he holds dominion in.
A simple process of elimination would be enough to pinpoint the region of the world Hobbits would dwell in: Except for maybe coming upon Bilbo wandering around, or the odd Hobbit who liked to travel and adventure, nobody really had much knowledge about them. Thus, if suddenly you have a location where they are known to have taken part in military conflicts, it's a safe bet to start looking in that part of the world. Especially if you cross-reference this information with the potentially unrelated tidbit of Gandalf being spotted moving around in the region quite a fair bit. (He did have a habit of constantly visiting the Hobbits, after all.) - Combine all these indicators, and it's a safe deduction there is something relating to the Hobbits to be found up there. Especially as you have other more known locations such as Bree in the region, which is a good place to start digging up dirt...or if you suspect the meddlesome gray wizard to know something, try to figure out where they go and come from. Easier said than done, for sure, but even the wisest can make mistakes and leave a trail. Using the buddy system, it would even be possible to figure out if someone does not return, there is likely some force constantly stopping intelligence gathering operations in the region (IE: Those Rangers), which would again make it an even more suspicious location to look into because now on top of everything else it looks like the region is being protected on purpose.
And before I forget: No - To any would be supernatural despots, or earthly ones, I am not up for hire to help you make simple deductions and to utilize basic logic to pinpoint where your incredibly essential jewelry that is deeply rooted in your essence has been stashed away at. Frankly, if you can't do that yourself regardless, it may be a good time to consider a different career path. Actually, even if you can do this simple logical math, do consider a different career path regardless. We could do with less mayhem and despots for the next several millennia, at the very least.
Where was Gondor?!
Hmm, that ending. Very sus
Was Angmar a kingdom of orcs or men or both?
Both. I mean, it was similar to Mordor in that regard. In the film, we see it as mostly orc realm, but Sauron employed just as many people from Rhun and Harrad, large part of Mordor outside of Gorgoroth had humans supporting its economy (mostly slaves though). Also, Isengard, when it rises up under Saruman, employs humans and orcs alike, but in the films it is almost exclusively orcs apart from a token scene with a Wild Men of Dunland.
WHERE WAS ARNOR WHEN THE WESTFOLD FELL
on his way to healp the westfold
didn't arnor and Gondor have palantirs to communicate through most of this
They did, but they seem to have fallen out of use around the 15th century after the Osgiliath stone was lost.
only if Arvedui were made king of both kingdoms... it was the only way
they chose not to, Arnor had to became Rangers
I, haven't watched the video ye. But, I'm just going to make a guess based on the facts we know. First, we need to take a look at the timeline. 1300 of the TA is when Angmar was formed. Gondor, military at this point was strong. But, Angmar was not a big threat. 1409 is when Angmar strikes for the first time. Gondor could help but this was pre-Kin Strife. It, seemed as if gondor was split. After, the Kin Strife Gondor had gained an enemy to the South, the Corsairs. From about this point on it seemed as if Gondor was faced with multiple enemies they half to worry about. The, Easterlings to the east. Also, Corsairs and Haradrim to the south. Also, the Kin Strife didn't help there case, as there forces were reduced. Setting them off hundreds of years. By, the time they recover and take Umbar back. The, Wain Riders attack which delays gondor a hundred more year's. It, wasn't until fighting has subsided that they can send an army forth. Also, another thing may be because, they had no contact with one another. As, after Isildur died they became independent of one another. Since, each king ended up splitting off from one another. For, almost 2000 years Gondor and Arnor had list communication. It, wasn't until Arvedi arrived did the finally connect back up. So, it is likely that Gondor didn't know that Arnor needed help. So, that my conclusion, Multiple Foes to deal with, a Plague, and that the kings were isolated from one another. But, I'm now going to watch and see how right or wrong i was.
Daddy ❤️ me
Ayo
Messenger: The beacons are lit….. the beacons are litt!!! ARNOR CALLS FOR AID!!!!!
King Earnil II:…………….
Messenger: ………..
King Earnil II: And Gondor shall answer!
*epic music plays*
King Earnil II: muster the Gondorians it will take at least a year to get there
Messenger: …………..
"We assemble the army at Pelagir. As many Men as can be found...you have six months".
@@DarthGandalfYT “and on the 7th we sail for Fornost…. and war”
Meow